I've been floating around these boards as a guest for while now. While I know more than I did, I also realize I know less than I should.

What I have:
My theater if you could call it that at this point consist of my laptop connected to my projector, and a cheep Sony book shelf stereo receiver speaker set with a pair of surrounds tagged on. This is for a college apartment and on a college budget. The room its in is appox 20'x14' and has a diagonal lofted ceiling. I will be able to get two decent speakers (used cheap), 2 surrounds (already got free) and sub (in need of minor repair, free) off a friend for this system plus my old two book shelf speakers if need them.

What I want:
Better sound for movies and music. Mostly I want fuller mids, some lows (for movie booms), and slightly crisper highs. The receiver that can get me this at a low cost. I ready to spend up to $250 if I need too but would prefer if i could get away with less.

Questions:
Should I look at stereo or av receivers? ( the video is not a major factor right now )
What features are a "must have" ?
What features are really nice to have?
Any suggestions of models or brands? new or used

Thanks a lot,

Jim

If you want surround sound then you need an AVR, stereo receivers are just that, stereo(2 channel).
Next if you do not need HDMI inputs on the receiver then you should look for a used receiver on craigslist or other places. Just make sure it has digital inputs either optical or coax. You should be able to get something nice for around $100.
Whatever money you have left or can get together do some research and buy the best bookshelf speakers you can. For sound quality your money is best spent on speakers and a good front left and right will make a big difference.

Do you know the model and brand of the bookshelf speakers and sub woofer you can buy from your friend?

Almost any AVR will be fine. 99% of the result will be the speakers. The very worst AVR is better than the very best speaker.
For your budget, better troll e-bay. You are in an apartment, you can't use 500W mains and 3000W subs anyway. Actually, any sub in an apartment is a bad idea. In a small room, centers are overrated. (IMHO)
I would concentrate on the best mains you can grab, and any old amp for now. Deals are out there. I got a pair of Kef Q1's for 100 bucks. A lot better deal than the same money for new Warfdales. Don't forget CL as ou can find stuff local and save shipping.
If you find some, post on the speakers thread to see if anyone knows them.

I disagree with tvrgeek. A speaker is really a type of AC motor and clarity comes from having control over that motor. Receivers with smaller power supplies cannot maintain control over the speaker system and the result is a lack of detail and clarity. Power isn't about how loud the system plays...you only get an extra 3 decibles of output when you double power so if it's loud you want...buy efficient speakers or go broke trying to buy real power. Power is about having clarity at any volume...especially lower volumes.

The best power supplies for the buck in the A/V business right now are found on Onkyo's and Denon's.

Look at the power consumption rating on the receiver, take 70% of that number and divide by the number of speakers you're using and you'll be pretty close. Some of the HTiB's are using a new style of digital amplifier that is far more efficient than what you might find in today's Onkyo or Denon but these supplies are typically pretty small and the receivers can't deliver anything near the power that their spec sheets suggest they can. Real performance on HTiB's can be as little as 10% of the actual power claim.

Look at used stuff. I don't know Onkyo models that well but a Denon 1708 or 1709 is pretty solid. The 1600 stuff is weak. Some folks make a big deal about HDMI going through the receiver...it's not absolutely necessary to do it that way...you can go direct to your TV and feed the audio to the receiver via the digital out on the source.

Hope that helps....

With all due respect to tvrgeek....balance....I've seen too many blown tweeters in my day as a result of people buying a good speaker and matching it with an insufficient amplifier....and the neophytes always blame the speaker.

Receivers with smaller power supplies cannot maintain control over the speaker system and the result is a lack of detail and clarity

I disagree. Based on your claim, headphones would never be "clear and detailed"...due to the "small power supply".

I disagree with tvrgeek. A speaker is really a type of AC motor and clarity comes from having control over that motor. Receivers with smaller power supplies cannot maintain control over the speaker system and the result is a lack of detail and clarity....Power is about having clarity at any volume...especially lower volumes.
This sounds scientific, but it doesn't have much science behind it. The relationship between power and "clarity" is, to be kind, unproven. If you don't have enough power, you will get distortion at high volumes, which your brain might interpret as a "lack of clarity" (whatever that means to you), or it might interpret it as something else. But the problem is distortion. And you don't need more power at lower volumes; you need less.

Look at the power consumption rating on the receiver, take 70% of that number and divide by the number of speakers you're using and you'll be pretty close.
An interesting formula. What's your basis for it? (An honest question, BTW.)

I've seen too many blown tweeters in my day as a result of people buying a good speaker and matching it with an insufficient amplifier.
True, but still relatively rare. Even cheap AVRs tend to have enough power to run five typical modern low-cost speakers. It's a danger you want to be aware of, however.

It's for a college guy with $250 or < budget. No need for the "science" and jousting.

Just give a recommendation. ;)

Just give a recommendation.

please do.

I agree, Denon and Onk are best mid line, (and used NAD, Rotel, Parasound) but.
If you have passive crossovers, all the damping factor stuff becomes moot. Do the math. I build speakers, I have. I tri-amp my main system for that reason.
This is for an apartment, not high end dedicated listening room. Yes, better electronics when you have 100 times the budget is rewarding, but I would not hesitate to hook up Wilsons to a radio shark receiver and the next best money would be for speakers, if you could find them. OK speakers are only 50% of the equation, room is another 49%. That leaves electronics as the bottom of the list. 1% of the sound. Speakers produce many % distortion, bad electronics produce .0 something. When on a budget, fix the worst parts first.

please do.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9245435&type=product&id=1218066770015

Enjoy and sell/donate it when you graduate. :D

No chest puffing and nothing to prove. :rolleyes:

Google "amplifier efficiency". You'll find several articles and posts pertaining to the subject.

As for the relationship between power and clarity, I demonstrate it almost every day. Come work in my store for a few weeks and I'll promise you'll be enlightened...

No chest puffing and nothing to prove.

Why the sudden change in posting habits?

Duvetyne...that goes for you to. Headphones require far, far less current to drive and there's typically one, very low mass driver per ear so, unlike a conventional speaker with multiple drivers of different masses that must be "controlled" to work together, headphones can be driven well with a far less expensive arrangement.

xxbobxx, tvrgeeks NAD, Rotel, etc. rec is also good but you can probably find a good deal on an Onkyo or Denon on line at a pretty good deal.

tvrgeek, as for hooking up a pair of Wilsons to a Radio Shark receiver....some people can listen to almost anything and be perfectly happy. I love the Wilsons but if I had to listen to them on what you consider to be acceptable, I'd rather stick nails in my ears and call it even....sorry dude, listening to any decent speaker on a cheap amp is like sitting next to a 2 year old in a restaurant...it's cute...for about 5 minutes.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Duvetyne...that goes for you to. Headphones require far, far less current to drive and there's typically one, very low mass driver per ear so, unlike a conventional speaker with multiple drivers of different masses that must be "controlled" to work together, headphones can be driven well with a far less expensive arrangement.

Now you totally contradict yourself.

As for the rest of your post(s)...you come across as a salesman...IOW, you don't really know the technical aspects, but you'll say anything to make a sale.

I feel bad for the college kid... $250 budget and more education from the "experts" than anticipated.

Maybe he will change his major. ;)

As for the relationship between power and clarity, I demonstrate it almost every day. Come work in my store for a few weeks and I'll promise you'll be enlightened...
Oh, a salesman. ;)

I love them too. If I could afford them, I could afford Levinson's to drive them. Why not? (based on Watts and Puppies, I have not heard the current ones. Why tease myself?)
I am just trying to make the point that a generic receiver is pretty darn good, and the best speakers in the world are barely adequate. Spend 10 times as much on the speakers. Will better electronics help?, yes, but not as much as better speakers. I have seen way too many people with next to top line AVR's and 30 year old Sansui PX special special speakers looking at an external DAC to solve their sound problems. (they already have esoteric interconnects and cables) Once you have put a couple grand out on speakers, then look for new electronics.
So, my advice to a student ( been there for sure) is to troll e-bay for the best speakers he can get for his restricted budget. Graduate, get a great job and buy everything he can dream of, because after marriage, house, mini-van...... long slippery slope. 30 years later I can afford most anything, am too cheap to spend it, and can't hear as well as when I was 20 anyway! So, I continue with DIY. I had to when I was in school, I enjoy it now. Besides I was an EE major for a while. Good cover.

Yup, you guessed it. I help people find ways to watch TV and listen to music. The key word is "help".

It's a great job...been at it for 30 years. My clientele are my best source of information. Some of these guys know a heck of a lot more about this stuff than I do but I think duvetyne is under-estimating me.

For those of you who might question the sincerity of a salesperson I have two things to say: the first is I'm sorry that you've had so many unpleasant dealings with salespeople that you tend to feel the way you do and the second is that I don't screen calls, I don't use voice mail, and when something I've sold you breaks, I'm the one who writes up the ticket. In other words, I've got nowhere to hide so there's no benefit in not being straight with my customers.

xxbobxx, you landed in a good spot although it's kind of like watching the scene in "Grail" where the guards are debating the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow. Good luck. Find a used Denon AVR1708. I've got a 1707 in here I've been using as a service loaner for a couple of years I'll sell you for $100.00 bucks. I've got no original factory box but I do have the remote and can print up a manual. It's actually being used on a display in the store right now. No HDMI though. Warranty status would be questionable. (This means that you'll get a receipt from a Denon dealer but because of the product's age, a warranty station might not honor the warranty. If it failed you could send it back to me and I'd lobby Denon for help but they're run by a bunch of Sony cronys and have no sense of humor). I'd give you a defective exchage on it and pay the return freight if it failed....how's that? It's not new....the 2nd zone got cranked to the max inadvertantly and all the smoke came out of the power transistors for those channels. It's the best I can do. If you're interested, pay the freight to where ever you are and we can work it out. Like I say...if it doesn't pan out I'll pay the freight coming back. (duvetyne's sitting there going "damn....I knew the guy was a lousy salesman!)

Some of these guys know a heck of a lot more about this stuff than I do but I think duvetyne is under-estimating me.


No, you were pegged by myself and many others.

Does TVR mean you're into TVR's...as in the car?

No, you were pegged by myself and many others.

Good boy!

some people are always in the upgrade mode..myself included..I'm sure you can find a used lossless/HDMI AVR for around $250.. If you can wait tillblack friday you may be able to score a new lossless/HDMI AVR for under $250.. I did . but here's my take.. the college system is important.. you'll have it for years.. it'll go through many girlfriends..move cross country and back..the tuner will be stuck on WPLJ even when you finally move to CA,after years you'll get married and give it to your baby brother.. when you get divorced he'll give it back.. spend a few bucks.. your 1st system is like your1st car... 1st amp.. sunsui 9090DB..1975-1996..RIP old friend

Google "amplifier efficiency". You'll find several articles and posts pertaining to the subject.

As for the relationship between power and clarity, I demonstrate it almost every day. Come work in my store for a few weeks and I'll promise you'll be enlightened...

I'll bring in my ABX box and you won't be happy! ;-)

Haven't heard anyone mention one of those in years. Good friend of mine had one up at App State in the late 70's hooked to a pair of knock-off CV 12TR's and a Philips 312 turntable. V-15 what-ever-series it was cartridge and (remember this?) a Disctracker.

You brought back some good memories. Thanks.

Most of this lightweight stuff we're selling today doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of making it 20 years....it's intentionally designed not to last that long.

30 years in this business and the specmanship gets more and more outrageous every year.

now I'm concerned about blowing my tweeters....I have a SR-505 Onkyo that I was going to use with my eD A6-6T6 Towers, Center, and a3-300 Sub....Do you think I'm going to be ok?

Do you think I'm going to be ok?
I don't know... whats the max wattage per channel for that receiver and the max handling wattage of the speakers?

p.s. i could just look it up for you and give you the answer, but its the whole teach a man to fish thing :D

how about a used pioneer 1018--the new model 1019 is out and some deals on the popular 1018 should abound. nice features to have: hdmi connectivity, dts-ma hd and dolby truehd decoding, preamp outputs, backlit remote

btw...this "jousting" in every freaking thread is getting old and making this whole forum look really sophomoric.

Most of this lightweight stuff we're selling today doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of making it 20 years....it's intentionally designed not to last that long.

Who the hell wants a 20 year old AVR?

Some decent 2-ch gear may be timeless, but AVR...20 years...heh, it'll be outdated in far less than that.

As far as recommendations, IMO, there isn't going to be much difference between any of the name brand receivers at a given price point. Pick one, any one.

I don't know... whats the max wattage per channel for that receiver and the max handling wattage of the speakers?

p.s. i could just look it up for you and give you the answer, but its the whole teach a man to fish thing :D

Lol..sorry, receiver is 75 watts a channel, tower speakers are 250watts max, center is 200w, sub is 300w. All the speakers are 6 Ohms. My receiver says it puts out 100 watts per channel at 6 Ohms.

Who the hell wants a 20 year old AVR?

Some decent 2-ch gear may be timeless, but AVR...20 years...heh, it'll be outdated in far less than that.


My 13 year old surround sound preamp is still doing a fine job. Out of all the things we've watched since we got a Blu-ray player only a handful have had a newer format it didn't support.

Assuming it takes as long for the Blu-ray back catalog to become significant as it did with DVD, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets to 20.

Lol..sorry, receiver is 75 watts a channel, tower speakers are 250watts max, center is 200w, sub is 300w. All the speakers are 6 Ohms. My receiver says it puts out 100 watts per channel at 6 Ohms.
I'll assume the 75 watts is your receiver at 8 ohms... otherwise you're giving me two different wattage ratings for the same output.
In either case it looks like you'll be fine, even with your speakers handling wattage exagerrated you shouldn't be able to over power the speakers. However, a tidbit of info, most tweeters are blown through distortion rather than overpowering. This is where you amp can't feed enough power to the speakers for the volume you're wanting to the point where the amp clips the signal. This results in a flat topped sine wave that resembles a square wave, which is dangerous as the flat topped sine wave will then be feeding the max amplitude to the tweeters more than a non-clipped sine wave, which usually results in the tweeters voice coil eventually overheating.
So, even if you're not overpowering your speakers you do need to be aware that you can hurt your tweeters another way. However, usually it is quite obvious when this is happening. so remember if you hear distortion to just turn it down ;)

Lol..sorry, receiver is 75 watts a channel, tower speakers are 250watts max, center is 200w, sub is 300w. All the speakers are 6 Ohms. My receiver says it puts out 100 watts per channel at 6 Ohms.
You're fine.

My 13 year old surround sound preamp is still doing a fine job. Out of all the things we've watched since we got a Blu-ray player only a handful have had a newer format it didn't support.

Assuming it takes as long for the Blu-ray back catalog to become significant as it did with DVD, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets to 20.


I've got an old Pro Logic-only processor that's 20 years old, maybe more, and still works (afiak). However, it's outdated in my book and gathers dust in the back room because it's not worth anything, except maybe to a collector of "firsts". Yamaha DSR-100 PRO. First commercially-available DPL processor intended for the home/consumer market.

I'll assume the 75 watts is your receiver at 8 ohms... otherwise you're giving me two different wattage ratings for the same output.
In either case it looks like you'll be fine, even with your speakers handling wattage exagerrated you shouldn't be able to over power the speakers. However, a tidbit of info, most tweeters are blown through distortion rather than overpowering. This is where you amp can't feed enough power to the speakers for the volume you're wanting to the point where the amp clips the signal. This results in a flat topped sine wave that resembles a square wave, which is dangerous as the flat topped sine wave will then be feeding the max amplitude to the tweeters more than a non-clipped sine wave, which usually results in the tweeters voice coil eventually overheating.
So, even if you're not overpowering your speakers you do need to be aware that you can hurt your tweeters another way. However, usually it is quite obvious when this is happening. so remember if you hear distortion to just turn it down ;)

Thanks for the info, it is the clipping that is concerning me...how will I know when this is happening? What will it sound like?

Thanks!

Going back to the first few posts, I am interested in finding out if more power does in fact result in better and fuller sound including at low volumes.

I have a pair of good speakers that could do with a bit more power and I am looking for fuller, thicker, beefier sound especially when the volume is low. My amp is no slouch and does a solid 50wpc but I am curious if I should try and trade up. Does anybody know about this for sure?

Going back to the first few posts, I am interested in finding out if more power does in fact result in better and fuller sound including at low volumes.


Short answer - as long as you aren't driving your existing amp into clipping, more power provides no audible benefit.


I have a pair of good speakers that could do with a bit more power and I am looking for fuller, thicker, beefier sound especially when the volume is low. My amp is no slouch and does a solid 50wpc but I am curious if I should try and trade up. Does anybody know about this for sure?

I know about this for sure because I regularly work with amps rated up to a kilowatt. If you want more bass, and have enough amplifier power to avoid clipping, then get an equalizer to turn up the bass.

Nice, very helpful. Thanks!

Thanks for the info, it is the clipping that is concerning me...how will I know when this is happening? What will it sound like?

Thanks!

If it sounds distorted either the amplfier is clipping or the speakers are running out of excursion. Either way you want to turn it down.