I haven't dealt with OTA tv in years, so with all the digital stuff now, I'm having some issues.

My girlfriend's parents had me hook up their converter boxes recently, and they found they lost some of their stations when I did so. Their antenna is at least a couple of decades old, so I imagine a new one is their best bet. Here's the info on their location:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/aaronofborg/Radar-Digital2alishia.png

They already have an outdoor antenna, so it should be easy to get a new one up. It seems all their stations will be coming from Nashville, so a directional, non-rotating antenna should also be fine.

What's giving me trouble is the VHF/UHF thing. Some sites say just one is fine, others say both. From that chart, it looks as if both are needed to get all the basic stations (CBS and NBC are VHF, the others are UHF). Channel 5 is the channel they complained the most about losing.

As for budget... cheaper is better. Radio Shack told me they have an antenna for $105, but they didn't have any specs on it available... and being Radio Shack, I'm sure I could get a suitable one for less.

Thanks for any help/links/info you can provide!

I

What's giving me trouble is the VHF/UHF thing.

The VHF/UHF 'thing' is pretty straight forward. The same as analog TV, Digital TV can be on both VHF - channels 2-13, and UHF - channels 14 and up.

If you want channels on both bands, you'll need a VHF / UHF antenna.

Channel 5 is the channel they complained the most about losing!

Channel 5 is running on channel 56. They switch back to 5 on June 12. Try rescanning on the 13th. There's a good chance that the current antenna will work.

If there continues to be problems with other channels, a preamp might help.

If the current antenna fails on June 12th, throw a Winegard 8200 with a pre-amp up there.

The chart is post-transition by the way, if that changes anyone's opinion. "channel 5 is on channel 56" the the reason VHF/UHF is confusing me, as channel 5 is one and 56 is the other, so I don't know which type of reception I'd be needing. Lots of "HDTV" antennas is just the one.

When I put mine up I called a local TV shop and asked what they were using for our neighborhood..

Just look at the "Real" channel column on the tvfool chart you posted. Post-transition (all that matters; it's five weeks...), they'll be trying to receive three VHF channels from Nashville - 5, 8, 10 - as well as several UHF signals. None of the signals is line-of-sight. Channel 5 (CBS), which is one they care about, is VHF-low.

You said "they lost some stations" when you tested the digital box - would that be 2, 5, and 8? Those are current VHF analog stations that are currently transmitting their digital signals on UHF. Do they currently watch analog UHF stations - 17, 30, 58? What do these analog stations look like?

Post-transition, ABC and FOX will be on UHF. If they're not receiving clear UHF analog signals now (17, 30, 58), their current antenna setup isn't going to work for these two - and wouldn't be working for much of anything digital now except NBC "4" on VHF-10.

My guess here is that their current antenna may be a VHF-only model, if it's really old. It would have pulled in ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS back in the day, when they were the only networks. It might give them some so-so, UHF reception as well (Fox on 17, maybe 30 and 58).

They need a large VHF-UHF combo antenna - one that has elements for VHF-low reception. If they already have that on their roof, you should be seeing good analog reception on both the current VHF channels (2, 4, 5, 8) and the current UHF channels (17, 38, 50). If you're not seeing that, then they'll need a new antenna that's a VHF-UHF combo. Because they care about CBS (VHF 5), they'll need a large antenna, with VHF-low capability. The Winegard 8200 that was suggested would work.

By the way, your tvfool plot was run at an antenna height of 15 feet. Is the current antenna on a rooftop, or free-standing? Is it really only 15 feet up? I ask because a tvfool plot run on just their zip code shows the Nashville stations as line-of-sight, whereas your address-specific plot shows them as 1-edge or 2-edge diffraction. It may be that more height on the antenna will get you line-of-sight reception, which would improve things.

..."channel 5 is on channel 56" the the reason VHF/UHF is confusing me.Channel 56 is the frequency WTVF is using for digital right now. It just displays or "remaps" to the familiar "ch5" on the TV tuner. In June, they will shut off analog 5 and move their digital station from UHF 56 to VHF 5.

Many antennas now say "Digital" or "HDTV" on the box, but nothing's really changed about antennas except marketing. You just need a good all-band VHF+UHF antenna. If the existing antenna doesn't work after June 12, replace it with a new one, or try replacing just the coax and connectors if several years old. RG6 coax is best.

2 things -

Higher is better - but you probably don't need to go extremes either. A large combo VHF/UHF antenna (the aforementioned Winegard 8200) is a good choice for their situation, set at about 25 -30 feet above ground.

And when selecting an antenna - worry about the "REAL" column. That's the frequency the station will be broadcasting on. The "Virt" channel is what their digital tuners will be showing.

When I put mine up I called a local TV shop and asked what they were using for our neighborhood..

A local expert who knows the territory is the absolute BEST source of information, especially in difficult areas.

Of course, it would be nice if some business was thrown their way. After all, the experience to give that expert advice didn't come to the local guy for free.

If the current antenna fails on June 12th, throw a Winegard 8200 with a pre-amp up there.

I wouldn't go that big. It's pattern is too narrow for coverage from 96-118 degrees.

The HD7082P looks optimum.

You said "they lost some stations" when you tested the digital box - would that be 2, 5, and 8? Those are current VHF analog stations that are currently transmitting their digital signals on UHF. Do they currently watch analog UHF stations - 17, 30, 58? What do these analog stations look like?

They lost 5 for sure. Some others they say come in weaker, but I didn't get that detailed about it.

My guess here is that their current antenna may be a VHF-only model, if it's really old. It would have pulled in ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS back in the day, when they were the only networks. It might give them some so-so, UHF reception as well (Fox on 17, maybe 30 and 58).

We had asked them how old the antenna was and they couldn't remember. It's probably the one they installed when they built the house, so a good 30ish years likely.

By the way, your tvfool plot was run at an antenna height of 15 feet. Is the current antenna on a rooftop, or free-standing? Is it really only 15 feet up? I ask because a tvfool plot run on just their zip code shows the Nashville stations as line-of-sight, whereas your address-specific plot shows them as 1-edge or 2-edge diffraction. It may be that more height on the antenna will get you line-of-sight reception, which would improve things.
I guessed at the height. It's roof mounted, but RIGHT on the roof. If I put up a new one from them, I could sit on the shingles while installing it. I don't know how much effect height would have, but wouldn't it be safe to assume that if it's getting marginal/good signal with an antenna older than me, that a newer one would do just fine at the same height? I also can't vouch for what direction the current one is pointed; I'll be sure to point the new one toward the city.

Thanks for all the help! I've learned more in this thread than in hours of Googling.

I wouldn't go that big. It's pattern is too narrow for coverage from 96-118 degrees.

The HD7082P looks optimum.
I had been looking at an antenna for my house, and had that model bookmarked. Ice storm insurance money = our first antenna in about 5 years. Here's the chart for my house:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/aaronofborg/Radar-Digital2.png

...We had asked them how old the antenna was and they couldn't remember. It's probably the one they installed when they built the house, so a good 30ish years likely.Definitely time to replace the antenna and all the coax.

A local expert who knows the territory is the absolute BEST source of information, especially in difficult areas.

Of course, it would be nice if some business was thrown their way. After all, the experience to give that expert advice didn't come to the local guy for free.

I did ask him to do the install or at least sell me the antenna but he was too busy and didn't keep antennas in stock. Just sent me to Home Depot and told me which one to get.

I had been looking at an antenna for my house, and had that model bookmarked.

Channel 5 is really too weak to be received. Unless you want FM, consider a 7-69 antenna with a rotor. If you don't want a rotor, pick which direction to favor, and skip a few stations.

Too weak for my location, or hers? I'm not wanting channel 5 at my house; the CBS that has always come in here in the past has been channel 12. I only posted the chart for my house to see if that antenna would be good for it. All we'd want here is ABC (3), NBC (6), CBS (12) and Fox (7). Those are the ones we used to get before we went to satellite. any other channels would be a bonus.

Too weak for my location, or hers?

Channel 5 is too weak at your location.

All we'd want here is ABC (3), NBC (6), CBS (12) and Fox (7).

I assume you're referring to virtual channel numbers (3.1 etc.). Of those stations, I think the only one you have any hope of receiving reliably is 6 (WPSD). The others are too weak even for separate top-performing UHF-only and VHF-only antennas.

The key data is the NM(dB) column. For most people, the lower limit with the best antennas is 0 to -10, unless you resort to a tall tower or stacking multiple antennas of the same model to get more signal.

Channel 5 is too weak at your location.
Ah, yeah, sorry for the confusion. Channel 5 is wanted at her location, not mine.

I assume you're referring to virtual channel numbers (3.1 etc.). Of those stations, I think the only one you have any hope of receiving reliably is 6 (WPSD). The others are too weak even for separate top-performing UHF-only and VHF-only antennas.

The key data is the NM(dB) column. For most people, the lower limit with the best antennas is 0 to -10, unless you resort to a tall tower or stacking multiple antennas of the same model to get more signal.

With our old antenna (it was on the house when we moved here 15 years ago, no rotor or booster) we were able to get those stations. Why wouldn't we be able to with a new one? Same question for channel 5 at my girlfriends house. Are the digital signals weaker than the analog ones?

The CBS that has always come in here in the past has been channel 12.

The tvfool prediction for KFVS, CBS channel 12, indicates that it will not be reliable reception. However, the fact that you see it regularly indicates that tvfool's prediction may not be accurate.

The 7-69 antenna(s) that I would try first are either Antennacraft HBU-44 or a Winegard HD7698P. The HBU-44 has a bit more gain on channel 12 than the Winegard. Get a 7777 preamp. WKMS-FM is very strong at your house, but a 7-69 antenna will prevent preamp overload. Any extra height that you can get should be helpful.

With our old antenna (it was on the house when we moved here 15 years ago, no rotor or booster) we were able to get those stations.

How good a picture were you able to get from the analog stations? Was there a noticeable amount of "snow" or graininess?

Channels 3, 6 and 7 have their digital signals actually on UHF channels, which don't "bend" around obstacles like mountains as well as VHF signals. 12 will use that channel for digital after analog shutdown, but NM -20 dB is awfully weak (the weakest of the bunch).

You did give TVFool the exact latitude and longitude, right? In mountainous regions, a small change in location or antenna height can make a big difference.

The tvfool prediction for KFVS, CBS channel 12, indicates that it will not be reliable reception. However, the fact that you see it regularly indicates that tvfool's prediction may not be accurate.

The 7-69 antenna(s) that I would try first are either Antennacraft HBU-44 or a Winegard HD7698P. The HBU-44 has a bit more gain on channel 12 than the Winegard. Get a 7777 preamp. WKMS-FM is very strong at your house, but a 7-69 antenna will prevent preamp overload. Any extra height that you can get should be helpful.
Just making sure... the 7-69 means the 'real' channels, right? I won't lose NBC (channel 6) by getting one like that?

How good a picture were you able to get from the analog stations? Was there a noticeable amount of "snow" or graininess?

Channels 3, 6 and 7 have their digital signals actually on UHF channels, which don't "bend" around obstacles like mountains as well as VHF signals. 12 will use that channel for digital after analog shutdown, but NM -20 dB is awfully weak (the weakest of the bunch).

You did give TVFool the exact latitude and longitude, right? In mountainous regions, a small change in location or antenna height can make a big difference.
We haven't used antenna in probably 5-6 years, so I can't really say on the quality. It was very watchable for sure.

I didn't put in lat and long, but I did put in the exact street address. I can't vouch for the exact height of the antenna... its WAY up there though, enough that it'll require a cherry picker to install anything (which is why we've never bothered until we've had this insurance money to do it with). I'll try to get a more accurate estimate tomorrow.

Just making sure... the 7-69 means the 'real' channels, right? I won't lose NBC (channel 6) by getting one like that?

That's right. NBC is on channel 32.

Continuing to remap to old analog channel numbers, post-transition, is ridiculous. It will result in continuing confusion for the antenna purchaser, just to please the broadcast lobby.

Mapping to the physical, real RF channel number may cause some confusion initially, but not forever like the current situation.

Agreed. It would have helped me a lot if instead of having 'real' and 'virtual' channels, meaning the same station could be called channel 32 or channel 6, it was called 'frequency' and 'channel'... channel 6 broadcasts on frequency 32, and the antenna is for frequencies 7-69, not channels 7-69. That's how I've been reading things in my head now, and how I'll explain it to the gf's parents. They're in their late 50's-early 60's so I have to keep things simple.

What about a rotor for my location? Would it be needed to get the stations I want? How do those work exactly? As in, will it have to be manually rotated every time someone wants to change channels, or would the rotator automatically move it whenever the station is changed on the tv? How would this effect having multiple sets hooked up to the same antenna (we will likely want at least the 2 bedroom sets hooked up, possibly the living room in the future if we drop the satellite).

Is the 7777 def the amp we'd need, considering that the signal will be being split? Sorry I didn't mention that before; I hadn't intended on hijacking my own thread from my gf's house to mine. However, in her case, the antenna is low enough that we can do the install ourselves. My house will require paying someone, so we have to get it right the first time.

Agreed. It would have helped me a lot if instead of having 'real' and 'virtual' channels, meaning the same station could be called channel 32 or channel 6, it was called 'frequency' and 'channel'... channel 6 broadcasts on frequency 32, and the antenna is for frequencies 7-69, not channels 7-69. That's how I've been reading things in my head now, and how I'll explain it to the gf's parents. They're in their late 50's-early 60's so I have to keep things simple.
Ummm...

Maybe you do need to dumb things down for your gf's parents, if they're not technically knowledgeable. But that's not a function of their age. There are lots of technically savvy people in every age group - and lots of folks who are technically clueless in every age group, as well. You should maybe have said something like, "They know as little about this as I do, so I have to keep things simple." Closer to the mark, in all probability, and not a hackneyed stereotype.

Note that it's not the senior citizens who remain unprepared for the digital transition.

Just sayin... (I do happen to be past 50, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that among those who read and/or post here.)

Is the 7777 def the amp we'd need, considering that the signal will be being split? Sorry I didn't mention that before; I hadn't intended on hijacking my own thread from my gf's house to mine. However, in her case, the antenna is low enough that we can do the install ourselves. My house will require paying someone, so we have to get it right the first time.
Find a good local professional, and you'll probably get it done right; that's more likely to get it done right, given your particular local challenges, than your trying to figure out the "best way" by asking questions here, and then second-guessing your local professional.

...They're in their late 50's-early 60's so I have to keep things simple. I'm 55, thank you.


What about a rotor for my location?No rotor needed for these stations:
http://i44.tinypic.com/akiuq0.png
Aim your antenna at 110° compass direction.

If you entered your exact address at TVFool, the results indicate you probably can't reliably get many more stations than these, anyway.

[keeping it simple] A rotor must turn the antenna every time you want to watch a station in a different direction. Rotors are not well suited for watching different channels on multiple TVs or DVRs.


Is the 7777 def the amp we'd need, considering that the signal will be being split? Definitely.
You run coax from the antenna to the mast-mounted amp--------> then the amp's power supply---------> then a splitter, with coaxes going to different TVs. The power supply must be mounted out of the weather and plugged into 110v.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/preampsetup.jpg

arxaw - great picture / drawing !

Scooper, thanks. But I didn't do that particular drawing. I only linked to it.

Sorry for being offensive! I certainly didn't mean it. As clueless as I am... they're WORSE. I tried explaining to her dad one day what a virus was (in the computer sense) and it was over his head.


No rotor needed for these stations:
http://i44.tinypic.com/akiuq0.png
Aim your antenna at 110° compass direction.

That's for their location, not mine. The picture for the amp is great, now I'm trying to figure out how to hook it up to power in the attic, where the splitting will occur.

As for having a pro install the antenna at my location... the insurance won't cover a full installation, only a replacement of what was damaged by the storm. As is, we'll have to be paying for the amp etc, as only the antenna and it's being placed on the mast is covered. All the wiring inside the house, we're on our own. I suppose that's okay... gotta learn to fish wire through a wall someday.

No offense... was just muckin' with ya. :)

Here's an alternate method that allows you to put the power supply behind the main TV. You MUST install DC blockers (http://www.a1components.com/itemdisplayn.aspx?item=4313) on the coaxes running to all additional TVs except the main one. The blockers can be installed at the TVs or at the splitter.

http://i44.tinypic.com/27ycrok.png

There are also splitters that are designed specifically for this purpose. They allow you to put the power supply on one port without affecting the other port(s). Here's a two-way splitter with "single port power passing:"

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=PV23-222&xzoom=Large#xview

Another term used for this is "one port passive." Avoid splitters that are labeled "all port passive" or "all port power passing" or something similar.

Yep, that's a better option.

Okay, sorry for taking so long to get back with pictures. It's a hectic time right now with graduations and everything going on.

I'm going to try to sum up the thread and make sure I'm on the right track.

First, my girlfriend's location/info:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/aaronofborg/Radar-Digital2alishia.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/aaronofborg/P1000262.jpg

Several elements are bent, at least one is missing, and there's no > shaped part (not sure which frequencies that section picks up). I was told yesterday that they got that antenna secondhand when THEY got it, which is so long ago they can't remember when it was. Replacing it with a HD7082P would work, no amp needed unless splitting the signal (which they may want to, and which will be a PITA as they have no attic to run wire through).

Is http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?ref=1&products_id=4563 a good place to order from? It comes out to $117 shipped with 50' of cable included. The unknown radio shack one was $104 with no cable.

Now, for MY location:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/aaronofborg/P1000272.jpg

Completely destroyed. I did attempt at measuring the height more accurately.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/aaronofborg/P1000271r.jpg

The height between each of the ladder steps (not sure what else to call them) is about 18 inches. Multiplying that out and adding a bit for the triangle part at the top and the mast, I came up with 37.5 feet, 7.5 more than I had originally told TV Fool. The new chart is below. I put green dots next to the stations I recall us having reception of before, but it was at least 5 years ago (no functioning rotor or amp).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/aaronofborg/me.png

With the increased height, KVFS 12's power increased a good deal. A good thing I realized when placing my dots is most of our desired stations do come from the same direction. There's ABC (34/3.1), NBC (32/6.1), 49/49.1 used to be UPN, not sure what it is now, CBS (12/12.1) is weak but in the right direction. That will probably be the decisive station to try to get; if we can get it, all the others will come in for sure. The only station not in that direction is Fox.

For my location, either Antennacraft HBU-44 ($102 shipped from Summit Source), which was said to be better for picking up CBS 12, or a Winegard HD7698P ($127 shipped), with 7777 ($74, backordered) preamp. I'll have to talk to mom, but I doubt the gain of one channel (Fox) would be worth the hassle of dealing with a rotor, so for now I'll assume it'll be pointed in the general direction of my green dots and not moved.

Thank you all for the continued help. Am I on the right track? Where would you recommend buying from if not Summit? I didn't do much searching in that regard, just trying to get an idea of prices for all this.

bump... needing to know what to tell mom to order for our location. The girlfriend's parents I think want to wait until after the transition, and their decision isn't as hard as ours.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/aaronofborg/wiring.jpg

Look good?

Wait - is that "splitter" only rated for 950-2150 MHz ? If so, not good - you need a splitter that covers from 50MHz- 860MHz that has that power passing. If you can't find that, you'll need to put power in the attic and put the pre-amp power supply between the preamp / 4 way splitter. Or move the splitter down to the living room along with cables to all the other rooms (this is what I have).

Good catch on the splitter. Here's one from your preferred supplier that would work:

http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?cPath=6_52_151&products_id=7527

As for which antenna for your location, the signals are very weak, you need all the gain you can get. Of the two you mentioned, the Winegard is the better one. The Channel Master 3671B should be even better.

However, if you don't mind using seperate UHF and VHF antennas, the Antennas Direct XG91 is probably the best UHF antenna currently available. The Channel Master 4228-HD is also excellent. Combine either with a Winegard YA-1713 for VHF.

Remember, though, the higher the gain, the more directional the antenna. So you'll probably need to get the rotor fixed.

Hope this helps!
-- Kevin

Wait - is that "splitter" only rated for 950-2150 MHz ? If so, not good - you need a splitter that covers from 50MHz- 860MHz that has that power passing. If you can't find that, you'll need to put power in the attic and put the pre-amp power supply between the preamp / 4 way splitter. Or move the splitter down to the living room along with cables to all the other rooms (this is what I have).

Here's the site for the splitter: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=P7004 the description says it goes from 5-2150 MHz.


As for which antenna for your location, the signals are very weak, you need all the gain you can get. Of the two you mentioned, the Winegard is the better one. The Channel Master 3671B should be even better.

Someone said the Antenna Craft one would be better at picking up channel 12, which is the weakest of the stations we're wanting to receive, which is why I picked that one.

Multiple antennas aren't an option; we only lost one antenna, so insurance will only pay to put up one new one, but we do get to choose what single one goes up.

So the splitter seems to be fine if the site description is accurate. One of those, the antenna http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ANC3671&main_cat=03&source=googleps and amp http://www.affordablehdtv.com/channel-master-cm-7777-uhfvhf-titan2-matv-mast-mounted-preamplifier-p-105.html?ref=99 (only site I can find it in stock at) should be what we need? I'm not sure if the installers provide cable or not... they'll only make the run into the attic anyway, after that it's up to me.

Well, between the original two antennas, the Winegard has slightly better UHF performance, where the AntennaCraft is slightly better on channel 12. Since 12 is the weakest, then you are probably right, the AntennaCraft would be better (and cheaper!)

As for the splitter, yeah it looks like they have the wrong picture. The label in the picture isn't even the right part number.

Well, between the original two antennas, the Winegard has slightly better UHF performance, where the AntennaCraft is slightly better on channel 12. Since 12 is the weakest, then you are probably right, the AntennaCraft would be better (and cheaper!)
What about between the AntennaCraft and the Channel Master 3671 (I couldn't find a "B" variant)?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ANC3671

It really depends on whether you're going to get the rotor fixed or not. I think the CM will be a little too directional to use without a rotor. It has a beam width of about 30 degrees, which might just barely cover the 5 stations in the cluster, but no guarantees.

What if you point it to the other cluster of stations on your TVFool report? The ABC/NBC/CBS/Fox stations at around 30 degrees? They all appear to be stronger than channel 12.

We don't have any intentions of a rotor. That would make it way more complicated, especially wanting to run multiple sets off of it.

That other cluster does look promising... some of them are weaker than the others I had marked, but they're all stronger than channel 12 for CBS. I'll have to ask mom about it tonight.

Which do you think would get us better results; the hbu44 pointed toward channel 12 (and all the other stations we're familiar with receiving), or the 3671 pointed toward that cluster you noticed? Either way has it's pros and cons... The first has a few stronger stations, cheaper antenna, but more spread out... the second has weaker stations, but a better antenna and not needing to worry about the beam width as much, but is also stations we've never watched before.

Mom said she isn't interested in that other location, as it wouldn't be any of our local channels. We ordered the hbu44, splitter, 7777, and 100' of quad-shield cable today. I'll keep this topic updated during/after install.

Thanks again to everyone that helped!

Finally got this installed and running, at least to my room, which is the only one with a digital tv anyway. Will still have to split and fish more wires to the other rooms.

The channels that come in clearly (there were several with high static that I'm not counting), and these are the 'virtual' channels, not the frequencies:

3.1 ABC WSIL HD
3.2 ABC WSIL SD
6.1 NBC WPSD HD
6.3 NBC WPSD WX (24-hour weather)
21.1-.4 various KETs (disabled, duplicated on 29)
23.1 FOX KBSI-DT
23.2 WDKA-DT (I have this one disabled as it's duplicated on 49)
27.1-.3 TCT (Christian networks, disabled)
29.1-.4 various KETs (same as 21)
49.1- WDKA-DT

Overall, I'm very pleased. Who knew there was a 24 hour weather channel? Very nice to have.

I do have one question though. How come KBSI (-20.6 db, 287 degrees) comes in, but KFVS (-14.8 db, 289 degrees) doesn't? They're from almost exactly the same heading, and KFVS is the stronger of the two, but there's nothing at all on that spot (I manually tuned to it and its solid static). KFVS is VHF, while the others are UHF, but the antenna is dual band and hooked up correctly to the preamp.

Any ideas? Is KBSI a lower-power broadcast or something that may get turned up over time?