I'm in a major metropolitan area and yesterday was the first time in several months that I looked at the websites of the local dealers and I discovered that at least half of the businesses no longer exist. This includes places that I recently purchased equipment from as well as companies that had been around for 15-20 years. These are brick and mortar companies with a showroom for auditioning equipment so I really have no idea how the companies without public showrooms are faring in this economy.

Are other cities seeing the same thing? If I were looking to buy speakers right now I think it would be difficult to audition a wide range of brands without traveling a long ways to another major city. Right now there is no local representation of some of the largest and most well known speaker brands. When the economy recovers will we see new brick and mortar dealers or is internet direct truly the future?

Our local B & M store went out a few months ago. Had 2 showrooms were in business for 25 years. IMO had overpriced inventory anyway plus you had the salesman making a good commission. I believe with the Internet Direct companies you cut out the middleman and that will save you hundreds plus with most reputable internet companies they offer free home trial and a good warranty. Why not go with Internet direct? Of course now there is no place to audition a variety of speakers in one place.

The Nashville area has been hit like that too in the past five years. You may want to call them though. A couple around Nashville went to appointment only. No more store front.

There was a local chain of 4 stores that now has one left. Some others seem to be in trouble. As browninggold said, id might be part of the reason why.

There used to be 4 stores in my immediate area. Now there is one and dare I say it? They push Bose as premium sound.

The stores that went out of business did so several years back, so at least it has nothing to do with the economy.

I have to travel for an hour to get to a real (IMHO) store, that carries upscale brands.

Obtainable profit margins have dwindled. Internet sales allow predators to pick off brick and mortar sales on price. Most name brands have gone to dealers who sell on the internet, undercutting their conventional distribution. Asian manufacturing has dropped prices. The bottom has fallen out of the video market, except with a few companies like Sim2. The audio enthusiast market has been replaced (partially) by the audio cheapskate market. "What are the best inwalls I can get for $100 a pair that have 40 Hz bass and are warm?"

New flash: Independent A/V stores are going out of business because no one comes in, and when they do, they're bargain hunters. Why would a salesman spend four hours with a guy auditioning a $1,000 speaker system that he would make $70 on when he knows the guy will order it mailorder anyway?

Don't be so surprised at the demise of the independent A/V retailer. And thanks to the few of you who continue to support these little guys and keep them in business.

How do you feel about newspapers going out of business, Paul?

It sounds like the brick and mortar/dealer business model is dying. I hope that the existing companies can successfully transition to whatever becomes the new business model. It would be nice if all of the existing dealer based companies could survive the transition but it seems inevitable that we will lose some mid and high end manufacturers in the coming years.

New flash: Independent A/V stores are going out of business because no one comes in, and when they do, they're bargain hunters. Why would a salesman spend four hours with a guy auditioning a $1,000 speaker system that he would make $70 on when he knows the guy will order it mailorder anyway?


Well said, Paul.
How much of this is due to tech aedvances and economies of scale improving the quality of much mass market gear? Granted, your inwall analogy is ridiculous, but for most people, there is no need to spend a grand on a pair of speakers when what, 90% (?) of the performance can be obntained for less?

How do you feel about newspapers going out of business, Paul?

I feel nothing. It's a trend, like the demise of the retail A/V business.

I feel nothing. It's a trend, like the demise of the retail A/V business.

Paul,

If you had a crystal ball, bought off the net of course, where do you foresee the sales landscape for the A/V industry in 1-5 years?

Its a new world. Car dealers next ;)

Are other cities seeing the same thing?


Yes.


If I were looking to buy speakers right now I think it would be difficult to audition a wide range of brands without traveling a long ways to another major city. Right now there is no local representation of some of the largest and most well known speaker brands. When the economy recovers will we see new brick and mortar dealers or is internet direct truly the future?

Whether it's coming out of a CNC miter-fold factory in China or furniture maker's workshop in California it can be 40-80% less expensive due to the missing markups and overheads when you buy direct.

Where you're spending $6.5K on a pair of Linkwitz Orion+ speakers today direct versus $31,500 through your dealer for Beethoven Elites in 1998 you can use the price difference to buy a decent used car and drive someplace where you can audition.

Where the delta is $1K instead of $2K you might need to head for an audio show or track down local enthusiasts. It's even enough for a plane ticket and hotel room.

This ignores that the options built in North America can easily be made to order so you you're not stuck with two or three bland finish options.

I don't think there's a compelling economic reason for stocking stereo dealers beyond the big-box store level.

How do you feel about newspapers going out of business, Paul?

Thats our fault also. We like our news on the internet. It's updated hourly or better and it's free.

Paul,

If you had a crystal ball, bought off the net of course, where do you foresee the sales landscape for the A/V industry in 1-5 years?

The high-end custom portion will survive, because they don't offer a price; they offer a service. Most upscale clients are not enthusiasts, just like most BMW owners don't wrench their own cars, and they don't autocross them. They like nice stuff and they can afford it. A really good custom dealer designs the room, the audio/video, the automation, multiroom, satellite, generals the job, etc. It is an entire package that the client can't buy separately (without screwing it up.) Someone buying a $50,000 to $500,000 whole house system or a spectacular theater rarely goes shopping for everything and puts it all together. Not even me. So the high end dealers like Electronics Design Group, A/V Audiovisions, etc., will survive. In fact, even in this crappy financial environment, the top 100 custom installers in the nation were only down 12% last year. Upscale business hasn't fallen much, and if our sales of new construction brackets are an indicator (they are), business will continue to get stronger throughout the year.

At the other end of the spectrum, the box stores will continue to move inexpensive A/V. The hole will be in the middle; the average retail A/V shop that has a small custom (or I call it "hook-up") department; where the fallout will continue. Only the stronger ones like ListenUp, Bjorn's, etc., will survive and prosper. It's a shame that most kids with an iPod have never, nor will they ever, be able to audition a great set of speakers in a retail store, but it is what it is.

BTW, I still get a newspaper delivered, along with about ten magazines a month...mostly automobile mags.

The B and M store in my area sold my buddy a bunch of component cables when all he needed was a few hdmi cables-more commission. Salesman stated do not get hdmi-not worth it. Now he has a lot of useless comp. cables after he purchased some hdmi from monoprice.com. Same with speaker cables....all about commission. I would personally like to see Internet Direct car companies instead of car dealerships....saleman= more commission the more he sells.

The B and M store in my area sold my buddy a bunch of component cables when all he needed was a few hdmi cables-more commission. Salesman stated do not get hdmi-not worth it. Now he has a lot of useless comp. cables after he purchased some hdmi from monoprice.com. Same with speaker cables....all about commission. I would personally like to see Internet Direct car companies instead of car dealerships....saleman= more commission the more he sells.

Don't take offense to this, but being an informed buyer would solve alot of the problems people have with salespersons.

Well, salepeople should not take advantage of people either. He talked the customer out of hdmi. BTW no offense taken.

Don't take offense to this, but being an informed buyer would solve alot of the problems people have with salespersons.And would mostly eliminate the value of the salesperson from a consumer perspective.

And would mostly eliminate the value of the salesperson from a consumer perspective.

Good point, but as a generally educated consumer, I disagree in practice.
I recently bought a push lawnmower. Did way too much research. Went into information overload. Called some small local places and shopped Home Depot, Lowes, and Sears. Finally, a good associate at Home Depot (really a salesperson?) helped me put it all in perspective. That was extremely valuable to me.

I think the Internet has revolutionized many things, especially the way we buy and sell. I have bought my last three cars online because I cannot stand haggling with salespeople and it allows me to do my homework. For many items this is a good thing IMHO. I don't need some dolt salesman at Best Buy trying to upsell me on a 6' Monster Cable for $120 when I can go online and buy a quality cable from Blue Jeans Cable or Monoprice and leave a nice chunk of change in my pocket. Again, this is a good thing from my perspective.

I recently auditioned many different speakers at various B&M stores in the $300-500 (per speaker range). Some of the experiences were good (knowledgeable salespeople trying to sell speakers at what I felt was a fair markup) and some were downright bad (pushy a-holes that had ridiculous markup). In the end I went Internet direct from a reputable company that has solid customer service (I spoke to an engineer/technician several times on the phone) and a good guarantee on their product. In the end I am glad I went this route. I felt that I got more speaker for my money. But I do feel for those B&M stores that were helpful, knowledgeable, and are trying to get by. But money is money and in this economy I am looking to save as much money as possible and/or make my dollar stretch.

I would love to be that guy who is considering a $500,000 home theater and cut zero corners, but for around $5K I have a very nice little setup that I am happy with and can enjoy movies and TV in.

I think Paul hit the nail on the head. The exclusive high end dealer/installer will survive. The BB types will do fine. It's the small, local retailers that will become extinct. I went and auditioned speakers at a local shop on a tues afternoon when I figured the place would be pretty empty. I was the only customer there. The sales guy was friendly and knowledgeable. I spent about an hour with him. I found a like new pair of used speakers on the web for less than half of what the bm he worked at had them priced for. I felt bad and sent the sales guy $50.00 for his time. I think the web is doing to small, local b&m's what it did to small, local record shops. R.I.P.

helped me put it all in perspective. That was extremely valuable to me.


Online AV forums like this one replace the B&M advice that people use to seek out. You can find out almost anything you want online.

The internet has revolutionized many, many things and good or bad it is the future. I posted this same opinion for years and surprisingly some people would argue against this simplistic idea only because they do not use the internet for transactions.....through attrition everyone will use the internet at some point.

Great point penngray. I have learned a lot from the online forums. Whereas in the past you would of went into a B&M store to acquire more info on the products you wanted to buy. Then most generally you would shop for the best price. Now with ID companies and the wealth of information online you really have no need to go to B&M stores.

But money is money and in this economy I am looking to save as much money as possible and/or make my dollar stretch.

Exactly.
My job is to get the most bang-for-the buck. Any (good) company's job is to turn a profit. If we can do a deal where they make a profit while I'm getting a deal, then everyone's happy.
But...if I find that same product for less elsewhere, I'm buying it.

Having said that, what really bothers me is people that walk into B&Ms knowing they're going to be buying online or elsewhere.
Time is money and it's not cool to waste some salesman's time when you know you're not going to be spending a dime.

But I think the future for us 'Mid-Fi' folks is internet-direct with in-home trials and free return shipping. Some companies are already doing it. The rest will catch on.

I believe there are some things that ok to buy oinline, music, watches, etc. When it comes to something that I touch or feel, listen to, watch or sleep on, I would never buy online.

Being a custom shop in an affluent area, we do not see the internet buyers as some do in other parts of the country, but it does happen, especially with tv's nowadays. But I hear more and more issues popping up with thier purchases and not being able to watch anything because it takes a week to have someone to look at the broken tv. Many people just go out and buy another tv and return it later on, once the first one gets fixed. Some purchases cause more problems for everyone.

A dollar is a dollar but you aren't paying for the product, you are paying for the percieved value of that product. You will find it an all forms of commerce across the globe. Most of our clients never hear or see the products we suggest for their homes and most are ok with that, they also know that our reputation is something we don't screw with and our sales people will not suggest anything if it won't benefit the client. There are always reasons someone acts the way they do, finding out their motivation, whether it be money, enthusiasm, time killer or others, will only help you make an informed decision. There might have been a reason for selling component cables over hdmi, I don't assume to know the reason but you will find the wrong reasons someone sells something in all walks of life, everywhere.

I won't knock internet sites for selling as I buy items online as well, but please don't lump all salespeople in the same boat, everyone is different.

Also please keep in mind that someones opinion in the internet is just that, an opinion. Listening to people here, or anywhere else for that matter, and taking it as law is assinine and foolhardy.

Everyone is selling something at all times.



But lets get back to discussing Triad speakers.
Paul, when are our new Platinum subs arriving?

I am probably one of the few who is very saddened by the demise of the retail audio shop.

I have a very sensitive taste for speakers. Bright speakers and with metal cones and horns tend bother me. And weak center channels for HT are something I'm also sensitive to. I'll go listen to a highly reviewed speaker only to find such flaws and minor nits that keep me from purchasing. So the internet direct method just doesn't appeal to me. The current speakers I have in my theater were bought sound-unheard and I've had to live with them for close to 8 years now. Never again.

I've spent the last few weeks auditioning speakers and driving across my metroplex trying to find dealers with speakers that I like. The fact that they keep going out of business is very frustrating.

And I'm not rich nor do I consider myself an audiophile. Most of my music is still in mp3 format.

If the day comes when my retail choices come down to high end (Krell, Linn, etc) or best buy (def tech, klipsh) I may just have to find a new hobby.

Great point penngray. I have learned a lot from the online forums. Whereas in the past you would of went into a B&M store to acquire more info on the products you wanted to buy. Then most generally you would shop for the best price. Now with ID companies and the wealth of information online you really have no need to go to B&M stores.

Every body likes to use car analogies, but taking a cue from your id......I'll pose a question to you and others.....Would you buy a new long gun online? (supposing of course, you could)

I like to handle and feel any new long gun I buy, and honestly the wood grain and coloring of the stock are as important to me as any other consideration. I've picked and opened five or six boxes to find a nice wood grain or coloring of a new long gun purchase. A hangun, yeah maybe, because they are all the same basic design within a model range...no wide variances for stock grain and barrel/receiver blueing. But never a shotgun or rifle.

Maybe it's my age showing but I like to touch and feel stuff before buying it.

Maybe it's my age showing but I like to touch and feel stuff before buying it.

I'm the same way. Precisely why I insisted on a long courtship before getting married.

Online AV forums like this one replace the B&M advice that people use to seek out. You can find out almost anything you want online.
Yup. So in the future people will be even more influenced by whoever bothers showing up in the forums to answer their question that day.

Scary, isn't it? :D
Maybe it's my age showing but I like to touch and feel stuff before buying it.
A lot of people do. The question is, how much more are you willing to pay for this? Well, you may have a particular valuation, but on average the answer seems to be "not enough". So the internet marches on...
The high-end custom portion will survive, because they don't offer a price; they offer a service. Most upscale clients are not enthusiasts, just like most BMW owners don't wrench their own cars, and they don't autocross them. They like nice stuff and they can afford it.
This is exactly right. Yet another blow to the whole auditioning ritual, really.

B&M still have a advantage where people can buy speakers etc and return them without paying shipping costs.

B&M still have a advantage where people can buy speakers etc and return them without paying shipping costs.

Returning a couple of small towers or large monitors at 60 pounds and $1000 of insurance each via Fed-Ex 3-day is $80 total halfway across the country. It's not significant compared to $1000+ per pair of savings. It's less than the sales tax you probably paid.

Shipping packages over 150 pounds each means talking to a freight carrier although it's a few hundred dollars. For $5K or $20K in savings it's still not an issue.

The web is great for those that care to educate themselves. Yes there can be issues that are not present in a B&M; can't touch and/or try before you buy, returns can be difficult with ID companies that are not reputable, et al. Still I have found those issues to be few and far between. Amazon will pay to ship both ways and does not even require a reason for a return and when it comes to speakers you are not going to know how good they will sound until you get them IN YOUR HOME so the advantage of a showroom is not as pronounced as some might think.

I found that many people that bemoan ID sales do so because they had a bad experience, they have a vested interest in B&Ms or they simply don't know what they are missing. I like to haggle and I have always managed to swing a deal on every major purchase I have made, but that is primarily because I know what motivates salesmen and I'm always more educated about their product than they are. Having said all that I think the web is an educated consumer's best friend and is more forgiving to the uninitiated than most salesmen I know.

The web is great for those that care to educate themselves. Yes there can be issues that are not present in a B&M; can't touch and/or try before you buy, returns can be difficult with ID companies that are not reputable, et al. Still I have found those issues to be few and far between. Amazon will pay to ship both ways and does not even require a reason for a return and when it comes to speakers you are not going to know how good they will sound until you get them IN YOUR HOME so the advantage of a showroom is not as pronounced as some might think.

I found that many people that bemoan ID sales do so because they had a bad experience, they have a vested interest in B&Ms or they simply don't know what they are missing. I like to haggle and I have always managed to swing a deal on every major purchase I have made, but that is primarily because I know what motivates salesmen and I'm always more educated about their product than they are. Having said all that I think the web is an educated consumer's best friend and is more forgiving to the uninitiated than most salesmen I know.

Couldnt agree more about the value of the internet and the whole haggling process.....Honestly other than very early adopter purchases, I've never paid more at a B&M than I would have had to pay online, recently at least.

I wish all these dealers online were around in the seventies and eighties as well, lots of cash down that drain I'm sure.

Its a new world. Car dealers next ;)

more generally, commercial real estate is next (not that it will cease by any means but its value trend has turned)....and beyond that, the importance of cities themselves :eek:

as for the A/V stores, i think it really sucks that at least in my area, finding a "good" one is difficult. for about a year now i've tried to find one where i can go and listen to a good selection, find some good reps to talk to, etc. as a kid, going with my dad to these stores where i was growing up was very much a treat. the good thing is, those shops and their salespeople who really have something of value to offer (their knowledge) are that much more differentiated (as opposed to a big box for example). the trouble is of course it's harder for them to survive as they've definately seen some of their market go online. for me, i like to buy both online as well as spread some support out to the guys and their shops who continue to do a good job

BTW, I still get a newspaper delivered, along with about ten magazines a month...mostly automobile mags.

i read my local newspaper cover to cover each of the 2 days a week it comes....would never, ever read a broader regional or national paper (unless getting on a plane), i'd be lost without the Economist and would be sad without Powder during the winter....(and still browse the auto mags whenever in a Hudson News or grocery store...)

Returning a couple of small towers or large monitors at 60 pounds and $1000 of insurance each via Fed-Ex 3-day is $80 total halfway across the country. It's not significant compared to $1000+ per pair of savings. It's less than the sales tax you probably paid.

Shipping packages over 150 pounds each means talking to a freight carrier although it's a few hundred dollars. For $5K or $20K in savings it's still not an issue.


Right! I love NO sales tax on ID purchases.....its a lame arguement people use about being able to return locally but not return ID brands....60-$100 for return costs is meaningless when you are spending thousands.


Heck, NONE of my local audio stores allow returns without stocking fees (Not talking about BB here).

I have gone in to a couple of them to ask about buying speakers to demo in my house and I asked about return policies....NONE would help me so they will never get my money.

Im sorry for those in the industry that have stores and are great helpful people on here but most B&M sales people I have talked with are way to arrogant and no squat about audio in general. I hate that when I ask about BSC tweaking I get a dumb blank look or when I ask how a brand compares to Salk or Rockets....Same dumb look. They are in the audio business, they should know brands off the top of their head, they should be learning daily beacuse its their job to know more then the customer.

They also do not know how to spot a customer that is willing to spend, I showed up at one place 10 times in a month when I was building my house. I even talked about building my house with the guys there....I talked about needing 4 AVRs, 22 in-ceiling speakers, 6 or 7 flat panels. I just laid it out on a platter for them to give me a stunning deal....NOT A FREAKING BITE. Horrible, just horrible business sense IMO.

I even had a pair of speakers sent to them because they were an authorized dealer but never stock the certain speaker......they setup a horrible demo for those speakers. Even made comments that they didnt like them and I should buy a certain brand in house.

Its a waste to post my experience with the other store. In summary I paid them to come out and give me advice on my custom HT project...they guy litterly said, run wires here, run wires there and recommended he run them for a nice chunk of $$$ (something I can do in 2 hours).....gee thanks!!

Sadly, Im not a fan at all of B&M audio boutiques any more. I do enjoy my local Music store, cool people, no swagger, make any cable I want.

Yup. So in the future people will be even more influenced by whoever bothers showing up in the forums to answer their question that day.

Scary, isn't it? :D


Lol, good point but I think the opinion/info on here is better then some guy in a store tell you to just listen to his speakers on his room, on his equipment. While you are listening he is throwing ever adjective at you to get the sale. Most people have ZERO chance of surviving that sales pitch. Pressure sales is a gift for some, you ever seen a timeshare sales pitch??? $20K for something that you can buy for $3K .....lol. People are gullable. The sales guy's job is to sell....few here have vested interest or gains anything from an OP's final decision.

Atleast on here there is members double checking/correcting members and the truth exists between the debates.


A lot of people do. The question is, how much more are you willing to pay for this? Well, you may have a particular valuation, but on average the answer seems to be "not enough". So the internet marches on...

This is exactly right. Yet another blow to the whole auditioning ritual, really.


Its definitely a ritual for some. I do not believe in demo sessions out side of my room, my equipment, my own time.

I'm in a major metropolitan area and yesterday was the first time in several months that I looked at the websites of the local dealers and I discovered that at least half of the businesses no longer exist. This includes places that I recently purchased equipment from as well as companies that had been around for 15-20 years. These are brick and mortar companies with a showroom for auditioning equipment so I really have no idea how the companies without public showrooms are faring in this economy.

Are other cities seeing the same thing? If I were looking to buy speakers right now I think it would be difficult to audition a wide range of brands without traveling a long ways to another major city. Right now there is no local representation of some of the largest and most well known speaker brands. When the economy recovers will we see new brick and mortar dealers or is internet direct truly the future?

IME, the useful life of most small dealers is not much more than 20 years, if that. They usually depend on the vision and energy of a single individual, and after that much time, they burn out and get stale. The either grow into a larger operation, get absorbed, become stagnant, or fade away. There will usually be new dealers to take their place. There are a few notable exceptions, but most of the principals in these businesses have 10-20 years in them.

In the future you are more likely to see less of the traditional dealer and more of integration with other businesses, "trunk slammers" who do business without a storefront for custom and installation work, and consultants who do calibration and installation work for folks who buy online. There will still be a handful of traditional dealers, but fewer than in the past on a per capita basis.

Right! I love NO sales tax on ID purchases.....its a lame arguement people use about being able to return locally but not return ID brands....60-$100 for return costs is meaningless when you are spending thousands.

Not sure that rings true when you say "spending thousands" on an ID brand. I think most buying the ID brands are not wanting to buy thousands.....more like hundreds. So, return shipping can be of real concern. As for "NO sales taxes", some dealers have larger territories than others. So, if you are in close in proximity to an out of state dealers.....traveling across state lines and in some cases items can be dropped shipped. There are NO sales taxes.

I ship larges speakers and subwoofers all the time. It IS a real pain in the a$$ to re-package up large items and schedule for a pickup or take to a UPS store.

Will the B&M module survive? Probably not, but most will hold out till the very end. Like Paul has said, most of us dealers have moved to a custom showroom model as opposed to a storefront. This is what we have done with success. Reducing such expenses translates into better deals for the customers. Certainly, not every dealer will discount, but some of us do and have no worries about doing it. It's a win-win for both parties in most cases.

I have nothing against the ID brand philosophy. I'm a DIY guy myself and can appreciate the value and return on a product when there is no middle-man. However, some of these companies that are having everything built in China and South America have seen significant QC problems, shipping delays, and have made many a broken promise. Companies like Salk Sound, Tyler Acoustics, etc. they take the ID brand level up several notches imho. Plus, they are American made products. I wish them continued success.......As with B&M stores, the ID brands will come and go as well.

Not sure that rings true when you say "spending thousands" on an ID brand. I think most buying the ID brands are not wanting to buy thousands.....more like hundreds. So, return shipping can be of real concern. As for "NO sales taxes", some dealers have larger territories than others. So, if you are in close in proximity to an out of state dealers.....traveling across state lines and in some cases items can be dropped shipped. There are NO sales taxes.

I ship larges speakers and subwoofers all the time. It IS a real pain in the a$$ to re-package up large items and schedule for a pickup or take to a UPS store.

Will the B&M module survive? Probably not, but most will hold out till the very end. Like Paul has said, most of us dealers have moved to a custom showroom model as opposed to a storefront. This is what we have done with success. Reducing such expenses translates into better deals for the customers. Certainly, not every dealer will discount, but some of us do and have no worries about doing it. It's a win-win for both parties in most cases.

I have nothing against the ID brand philosophy. I'm a DIY guy myself and can appreciate the value and return on a product when there is no middle-man. However, some of these companies that are having everything built in China and South America have seen significant QC problems, shipping delays, and have made many a broken promise. Companies like Salk Sound, Tyler Acoustics, etc. they take the ID brand level up several notches imho. Plus, they are American made products. I wish them continued success.......As with B&M stores, the ID brands will come and go as well.

very good points!

Right! I love NO sales tax on ID purchases.....
Enjoy it while it lasts. There's an administration proposal to kill this on the table already.

I like to haggle and I have always managed to swing a deal on every major purchase I have made, but that is primarily because I know what motivates salesmen and I'm always more educated about their product than they are. Having said all that I think the web is an educated consumer's best friend and is more forgiving to the uninitiated than most salesmen I know.
I'm sure you're a minority. Not having to deal with the pain in the @$$ which are MSRPs and haggling is absolutely fantastic imho. With ID, you usually have 3 prices, regular prices, B-Stock (returned, minor cosmetic imperfections,etc) and sales price. Same prices for everybody, no need to haggle to get the good prices. Some ID companies normal prices are like MSRPs: They're highly inflated with a LOT of profit factored in, and it shows when a 'sale' arrives and suddenly the prices drop by something like 50%. This is actually as bad as B&M's and their MSRPs (price that no one should pay for...), basically the same 'trick' as white van speakers; inflate the regular price and sell at 'sale' price for the 'regular' price...

But anyhow, with most ID shops there's no such BS. They don't put a ridiculously high price to get uneducated people to pay more than the item is worth. There's one price, and that's that, everyone who wants the item pays the same. Sometimes some have sales, where you can get stuff with 10-20% off, sometimes B-Stock, but they don't try to screw the customer in paying extra with MSRPs and the such...

Just look at it this way, even after you've haggled and saved a lot of money (compared to what, MSRP?), it was worthwhile for the shop to sell you the item, in other words, in the end they made a significant profit for the items they sold you. So did you really 'win' anything or did you simply pay the fair price? And again, if we compare to ID, that B&M shop isn't even into the equation, so you don't have to pay for his floor space, his inventory, his profits on the sale, etc...

I do not believe in demo sessions out side of my room, my equipment, my own time.

I totally agree. Once I started experimenting with room acoustics, and heard the room, I saw the futility of in store demos--apart from the actual "feel and hold," that is. I still think there may be some value in comparing several models at once in the same demo room, if you also have access to meanigful technical measurements. Without them AND knowledge of the home acoustical environment, however, most people can't know what to expect in their own room.

Enjoy it while it lasts. There's an administration proposal to kill this on the table already.

Yeah, I was reading about that.....I have no problem with consumption tax at all!!! I come from Canada where 15% was the norm for years :eek:

I'm sure you're a minority

I kind of agree but they I remember how much I love the markets over in Thailand or Kuala Lumper....nother better then haggling them down to $1 :D My wife was horrible though....they started at say $20, she would say $15, they would say SOLD :eek:

Enjoy it while it lasts. There's an administration proposal to kill this on the table already.

IF, and thats a mighty big if, we all really filed our taxes 100% correctly, you're supposed to pay sales tax on items bought over the internet from out of state anyway. At least in Illinois and Wisconsin.

It works on the honor system, so I wonder how much they collect? :D

IF, and thats a mighty big if, we all really filed our taxes 100% correctly, you're supposed to pay sales tax on items bought over the internet from out of state anyway. At least in Illinois and Wisconsin.

And California too - residents are responsible for paying sales tax on purchases. In fact the most popular tax software package for end users has a specific question about online purchases in the state-specific forms.

Still, internet buying is much more appealing IMO than going to a B&M (come to think of it, I have four separate systems in separate locations and have been interested in music for decades, yet have not stepped foot into a "high end" audio store since the early 1990s). The customer does not have to drive anywhere, does not have to listen to an oh-so-experienced, oh-so-friendly sales person, and can chose when to shop.

I've gone a step further since the late 90s, and now not only do I only buy from the internet, I also mainly buy used equipment.

I'm surprised California doesn't have an environmental impact tax on purchases.

In the hay day I got to hear:

Harbeth, Spendor, Dali, Dynaudio, Ref3a, Meadowlark, Opera, Jm Labs, Triangle(tree-ongle), B&W, Audio Physics, Caravelles, Quads, Maggies..the list of speakers goes on.

Krell, B&K, Audio Note, Classe, Sim Audio, Rogue, Audio Note, ASL.......goes on

Cardas, Acoustic Zen, Nirvana, Purisist Audio, Tom Morrow great cables...goes on.

Each Saturday we would gather at a hifi store and listen to music for up to 6 hours. Changing components and cables.

We got to do this because the owner didn't have to compete with asia or the internet and we purchased from them. We had clubs, like hot rods and rented rooms for shootouts. Turntables are gone and our last hifi dealer closed 6 months ago.

I'm surprised California doesn't have an environmental impact tax on purchases.

There are environmental fees on items such as televisions and computer monitors. There are also disposal fees for electronic items in general. The difference between a "tax" and a "fee" is probably moot to the end user that has already exceeded the allowable deductions and write-offs; however, it is meaningful in a legislative sense since a tax requires a specific super-majority to be implemented, whereas a fee does not.

I tend to keep my gear a long time and have not had to deal with any disposal fees. Plus, another advantage of the internet is that the probability of finding someone, somewhere that actually wants old non-working stuff for parts etc. is higher than previously (I've shopped for boards, CD transport mechanisms etc. in the past; others do also).

IF, and thats a mighty big if, we all really filed our taxes 100% correctly, you're supposed to pay sales tax on items bought over the internet from out of state anyway.
Yes, yes we are. As you suggest, pretty much no one ever does.

However, making every tiny little internet dealer know and comply with tax regulations from 50+ US jurisdictions (some states have different sales tax regimes by location) is a good way to put a bunch of them out of business. (Those who can't shift more of this cost onto customers, that is.)

And in fact I wonder if this won't similarly cover (and cripple) ebay, Audiogon, etc.

Yes, yes we are. As you suggest, pretty much no one ever does.

However, making every tiny little internet dealer know and comply with tax regulations from 50+ US jurisdictions (some states have different sales tax regimes by location) is a good way to put a bunch of them out of business. (Those who can't shift more of this cost onto customers, that is.)

And in fact I wonder if this won't similarly cover (and cripple) ebay, Audiogon, etc.

Since the dealers have no presence in the states they ship to it would be simpler to have them mail a form in to the revenue service of that state, with the buyer's info. After all, it's the buyer that owes sales tax; this way, the states interested in doing so can collect from their residents directly.

This would still not solve the problems with B&M stores. I can definitely see the fun involved in listening to music with other hobbyists at the local high end place once a month etc. but I tend to hold on to gear and have never been afflicted with upgradeitis. This makes me a poor customer for B&Ms IMO. Word of mouth advertising is great, but I tend to spread my own views in that case also -- I tend to advise people to hold on to gear as long as possible and hold on to money. This makes me a worse customer for B&Ms.

With internet shopping, I no longer have to worry about being a bad B&M customer. I buy whatever I want online whenever I want, ideally from someone that's already enjoyed the product and enjoyed paying for price when it was new etc.

What I foresee in the consumer AV industry is the inevitable march towards the lowest common denominator. How cheap can I get it? How many threads do you see here asking "what is the cheapest (insert component here) that will fill my 5,000 cubic foot space?" You see fewer and fewer people willing to save up and buy a system a piece at a time. We have become a nation of instant gratification and the results are the fast foodization of the AV industry.

The other side of the fallout is that you'll see more and more of the high performance, mid priced manufacturers go under as more and more compete in the ever shrinking price driven sector. How many ID companies can you have before it becomes nothing but static? You'll have a select bunch of manufacturers gaining a firm share in the high end custom space where they won't have to spend time talking to end users. Why should they give a hill of beans if a customer wants to call them or e-mail them to do research on their product when they have 100 custom guys world wide who simply call them up and order their stuff monthly without any hassles? If there is a problem with the end user, the integrator takes care of it. It will mean the really high performance systems will be more and more exclusively the domain of the wealthy.

Ultimately, the switch to mostly ID companies will mean that a lot of the really experienced guys won't be around any longer when they retire and fewer will be coming into the industry because there won't be anyplace for them to be exposed to high performance sound when they are young and impressionable. You are seeing that now in the sales force at most of the big box stores. How many of those guys have actually ever been exposed to a true high performance system to spark the fire of enthusiasm? Less and less of them and it shows in the quality of the sales force.

The long term results will mean there will be a lot less knowledge floating around out there. Go to this forum in 20 years and you are less likely to have a lot of guys in the industry who have been around for a long time with a lot of in field experience available as a knowledgeable resource. That will mean you'll have even more bad advice floating around than you do now. The really good guys will be selling gear to wealthy clients and won't bother coming here. The guy who did his stint at Best Buy for a year won't have the experience of what a good system is. Good equipment will still be available but there will be fewer and fewer resources available for the average guy to figure out how to make it sound good. I can't think of any other industry where the trend is towards lower quality results but the AV industry is one of them.

I've been in the biz 29 years now, having done many years working on sales floors, managing sales floors, managing a custom force, owning several audio sales companies, and now doing it pretty much for fun as a no pressure hobby which allows me a heck of a nice write off for my demo building. I own another company in a completely unrelated business which makes me my money. As it is, I'm switching my sound company over to a much more pro oriented gear. Not only because a lot of the pro gear has become so good that it is very much applicable in high end home use, but also because the pro industry is still very much alive. There are still lots and lots of "gear sluts" in the pro industry. Tons of enthusiasm and that is quite frankly where a lot of youth are going these days. My focus is now going to be partially towards getting those guys exposed to really top notch gear hooked up to a good DAW rig to get them excited. I'll still do home theater because I was addicted to it years ago when I used to visit all the local high end shops. These days, the guys who are being exposed to really cool stuff with lots of flashing lights aren't coming to the AV industry anymore because the buyers in the AV industry forgot about quality and focused on price. That is a shame.

Not sure that rings true when you say "spending thousands" on an ID brand. I think most buying the ID brands are not wanting to buy thousands.....more like hundreds. So, return shipping can be of real concern. As for "NO sales taxes", some dealers have larger territories than others. So, if you are in close in proximity to an out of state dealers.....traveling across state lines and in some cases items can be dropped shipped. There are NO sales taxes.

I ship larges speakers and subwoofers all the time. It IS a real pain in the a$$ to re-package up large items and schedule for a pickup or take to a UPS store.

Will the B&M module survive? Probably not, but most will hold out till the very end. Like Paul has said, most of us dealers have moved to a custom showroom model as opposed to a storefront. This is what we have done with success. Reducing such expenses translates into better deals for the customers. Certainly, not every dealer will discount, but some of us do and have no worries about doing it. It's a win-win for both parties in most cases.

I have nothing against the ID brand philosophy. I'm a DIY guy myself and can appreciate the value and return on a product when there is no middle-man. However, some of these companies that are having everything built in China and South America have seen significant QC problems, shipping delays, and have made many a broken promise. Companies like Salk Sound, Tyler Acoustics, etc. they take the ID brand level up several notches imho. Plus, they are American made products. I wish them continued success.......As with B&M stores, the ID brands will come and go as well.


I'll ALWAYS support my local dealers like you Tony, sure I'll spend a little more but I'm getting a quality product with a support network of some sort. With I.D. there is no local support whatsoever. The dealers in the Boston area that have survived do whatever they can to strike a reasonable deal especially when you have cash in hand. I've made great deals on products that are better than any I.D. speaker, amp, etc. twenty minutes away from home. Regardless of what people may say about home auditions, I was able to take my most recent amp, sub, and speakers home... from three different dealers.

You're right about Salk and Tyler, great products made in USA, but they are the exception to the rule. Channel Islands Audio is one of the few direct companies that makes everything here in the states. I have their DAC and it's an incredible piece for the money, the build quality is what you'd expect from something costing several times more. The brands I've just mentioned differ from other I.D.s, they actually manufacture their products in house. It's really the only way to "cut out the middle man" as you've heard so many companies claim to do. I'll buy direct if it's made in USA, but it has to be better than any well known brand I can buy locally.


The quality of "made in China" has improved, no doubt, but as a whole it's comparable to the quality of most made in Japan products in the 70's. It's still poor in my opinion, just read through the subwoofer threads to see all of the failed drivers and amps in I.D. subs made in China by various companies. These companies would rather deal with a 10% or more failure rate than spend more on parts spec or QC. My only experience with I.D. was a frustrating experience. The product was flawed from the start and despite every attempt on their part to remedy the problem I was still left with a dog. That one experience basically turned me off from I.D., I want to see, feel, and hear it first hand from now on.