Odd thread coming from a guy who's bought quite a few, but I always hold out for SPECTACULAR (at least what I think are spectacular anyways ;)) deals, and never pay more than 50% (usually closer to 30%) of original MSRP on speakers 5 yrs-old or less.

But, when I go on audiogon and see what some 20+ yr-old high-end speakers go for, I have to say that I'm taken aback a bit.

The first thing I think about is the integrity of the foam and paper used to construct many of these drivers. I know rubber, co-polymers, and metals are polular now, but 20 yrs ago...a lotta stuff that, well, wears out. Ditto for the cabinet solidity....even the the finest glue in the world has a death date. :p

I mean, forget about them physically falling apart, what about the damping, rigidity and other factors that are integral to loudspeaker performance? While I know some argue that many speakers actually sound better "broken in", surely many properties of their original sound are compromised (or at least altered) by the natural degradation of materials nearly 3 decades old? Do I overstate this progression? Are most high-end loudpspeakers producing a nearly comparable sound 20 years on?

Lastly, what about the advancement in loudpseaker tech in the last 20 years? Haven't we come far enough now that spending $3,000 on a pair of new loudpseakers will probably be at LEAST as well-performing as spending $3,000 on a 24 yr-old pair of (EXP) B&W 808's (actual listing ;))? Not to mention likely warranty/cosmetic benefits. Just askin.

Just find this to be interesting, as I'm one who finds that you can many times spend 50% of the cash to get 95+% of "the" sound.

So, that said, I truly find the "tipping points" of used loudspeaker buying to be nearly fascinating. Of course there's no cut and dry rules, but would anyone here spend a good sum of money on speakers 10 or 20 years old?

James

If they are rare, collectable type speakers and I was a collector then sure.

But I can not think of any positives a 20 year old speaker brings to the SQ table, period.

If they are rare, collectable type speakers and I was a collector then sure.

But I can not think of any positives a 20 year old speaker brings to the SQ table, period.

Well, given that speakers are the most subjective aspect of music and HT, I'd put a pair of Altec Model 19's or Altec VOT speakers up against most anything around today. They have lost nothing in old age. :) Albeit they are ugly as hell.

If they are rare, collectable type speakers and I was a collector then sure.

But I can not think of any positives a 20 year old speaker brings to the SQ table, period.

I don't know penn, I sure wouldn't mind finding a pair of B&W 801 series 2 speakers in good shape for a reasonable price or at least to hear them again. I still remember the first time I heard them, OMG! Probably a lot of nostaglia though, maybe they wouldn't be as amazing now that I have some other good speakers to compare them to.

Funnily enough I sold a pair of B&W Matrix 801 sII to fund a DIY build of Altec VOTT speakers.

The B&W's are and were great speakers and for their going used price they are a bargin. I owned mine for about 10 years and didn't notice any deterioration is the sound.

Used speakers are a fantastic value as long as they are not subjected to foam rot etc. And even then you can usually get them reconed and brought back to original spec.

Some of the old state of the art stuff was built with a level of quality that just does not exist today. Back then it was how great can we make this sound. Now it's all about much profit can we make and how well can we market these speakers. Sure sound quality matters, but speakers need to be very large to be efficient and play loud, but 7.1 and WAF have killed this to a large extent.

I just picked up a set of 1940's Altec 1005b horns and 288 Alnico compression drivers. I'm going to swap out my "newer" 70-80's Altec stuff and see how they compare. The 40's stuff fetches a lot more on ebay, and the 1005 tar filled horns are said to be the best Altec made. They stopped filling these 150lb beasts with tar to cut shipping costs. If they sound better then I have to repaint them. The diaphragms are fine - who knows if they've been replaced though.

When was the last time you saw a midrange driver with this level of workman ship? Ten individually pressed metal 300hz exponential flair horns encased in metal a filled with tar.

EZCode:
http://steve71.fileave.com/1.JPG

OP - All good reasons for you not to buy them, and maybe for most people not to buy them.

But some people like a particular sound, maybe one that they're used to or that brings back memories or just sounds right to them. And some people just like the idea of owning a certain model, or are curious.

Also, not all of the advances in speaker technology are about making them better. Lots are about making them smaller, less expensive to produce, or more in line with current fashions.

Also, not all of the advances in speaker technology are about making them better. Lots are about making them smaller, less expensive to produce, or more in line with current fashions.

Amen. Vintage JBL drivers are still better than 90% of what gets made today. Old (vintage) speakers need work, to be sure, and shouldn't be presumed to be ready to run without some refurbishing. But basic speaker design has not changed in 40 years and there are some examples of older designs that were way ahead of their time. Things like time aligned baffles, double-bypass cap crossovers and more were around 30 years ago. The biggest advances have been in crossover technology and driver materials. So while it's true that some newer designs are better, that does not mean that older designs are not up to snuff or not better built.

Well, given that speakers are the most subjective aspect of music and HT, I'd put a pair of Altec Model 19's or Altec VOT speakers up against most anything around today. They have lost nothing in old age. :) Albeit they are ugly as hell.

Hypothetically yes but my point is being missed. 20 year old speakers have a HIGH probability of having problems....20 years is a long time for any speaker to survive.

Yes, the Altec are incredible and if in flawless condition there is no question they would be great in my HT room. Ugly is okay when behind a screen ;)

btw, Im actually a BIG Geddes theories fan and out of anything that has changed in 20 years. I believe his recent research and his waveguide theories may be the single biggest change out there.

I don't know penn, I sure wouldn't mind finding a pair of B&W 801 series 2 speakers in good shape for a reasonable price or at least to hear them again. I still remember the first time I heard them, OMG! Probably a lot of nostaglia though, maybe they wouldn't be as amazing now that I have some other good speakers to compare them to.

Nostaglia yes but custom drivers are being built better these days. I guess Im taking the DIY point of view here. I can buy better drivers and build anything that resembles old designs but I can make it better with better SQ, better looks, etc.

An interesting point about "horns" in the past 6 months there has been lots of active in the DIY arena wrt to horns or actually waveguides now....there is a cool thread on audio karma called Econo-waveguides. Its DIYers taking some very cheap but reliable JBL waveguides/compression drivers and putting them into vintage boxes....if nostalglia is your think then it might be a cool read....

Econo-Waveguide DIY thread (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939)

Also, not all of the advances in speaker technology are about making them better. Lots are about making them smaller, less expensive to produce, or more in line with current fashions.

yeah, thats why I love DIY and going back to 12" high performance drivers in my main speakers :D

yeah, thats why I love DIY and going back to 12" high performance drivers in my main speakers :D

12" is OK, but why not go all the way up to 15" :)
My next DIY attempt for the summer will be The Galactica Project.
1"
6.5"
12"
15"
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f366/salamalekos/Galactica_html_4f72c36e.jpg

Because i can't afford that:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f366/salamalekos/NewPicture.jpg

12" is OK, but why not go all the way up to 15"

hehe, NICE!!!

What site do you use to post your builds?

Yes, the Altec are incredible and if in flawless condition

FWIW you can buy brand new Altec drivers from Great Plains Audio. GPA has all the original Altec tooling and makes the drivers brand new to original spec. They don't make the horns though. You have to buy them off ebay and refinish them if needed.

All my compression drivers have brand new diaphragms (the only moving part in a compression driver) from GPA and I purchased new 515G 16" midbass woofers from GPA. $100, a screwdriver and 15 minuets is all it takes to get any Altec compression driver back to original spec - even those 65 years old 288's in that pic. :)

[edit] - Should also add that the old Alnico magnets can need re magnetizing to bring them back to spec if they have been overpowered. GPA will do this for a small fee.

All woodworking and finishing is done at my friend's custom furniture factory, i hope he won't be overwhelmed by this project, as he only did relatively small stand mounds for me. I usually post at DIYAudio forums. DIY and smart buying "OLD" speakers can be very close in value.

kitsum, nice looking speakers. What finish is on those back ones? Is it just matt black paint or something else.

Odd thread coming from a guy who's bought quite a few, but I always hold out for SPECTACULAR (at least what I think are spectacular anyways ;)) deals, and never pay more than 50% (usually closer to 30%) of original MSRP on speakers 5 yrs-old or less.

But, when I go on audiogon and see what some 20+ yr-old high-end speakers go for, I have to say that I'm taken aback a bit.

The first thing I think about is the integrity of the foam and paper used to construct many of these drivers. I know rubber, co-polymers, and metals are polular now, but 20 yrs ago...a lotta stuff that, well, wears out. Ditto for the cabinet solidity....even the the finest glue in the world has a death date. :p

I mean, forget about them physically falling apart, what about the damping, rigidity and other factors that are integral to loudspeaker performance? While I know some argue that many speakers actually sound better "broken in", surely many properties of their original sound are compromised (or at least altered) by the natural degradation of materials nearly 3 decades old? Do I overstate this progression? Are most high-end loudpspeakers producing a nearly comparable sound 20 years on?

Lastly, what about the advancement in loudpseaker tech in the last 20 years? Haven't we come far enough now that spending $3,000 on a pair of new loudpseakers will probably be at LEAST as well-performing as spending $3,000 on a 24 yr-old pair of (EXP) B&W 808's (actual listing ;))? Not to mention likely warranty/cosmetic benefits. Just askin.

Just find this to be interesting, as I'm one who finds that you can many times spend 50% of the cash to get 95+% of "the" sound.

So, that said, I truly find the "tipping points" of used loudspeaker buying to be nearly fascinating. Of course there's no cut and dry rules, but would anyone here spend a good sum of money on speakers 10 or 20 years old?

James

If they are rare, collectable type speakers and I was a collector then sure.

But I can not think of any positives a 20 year old speaker brings to the SQ table, period.

You two are kidding right? :rolleyes:

kitsum, nice looking speakers. What finish is on those back ones? Is it just matt black paint or something else.

These are not mine - yet. It's a free design for DIYers at
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Galactica.html
Tony Gee seems to have a thing for cloning Avalon designs. (This is not an exact Isis clone, only the cabinets are similar.)

You two are kidding right? :rolleyes:


No, penngray better tell all those vintage die hard klipsch horn lovers to dump their speakers for the new superior klipschs :D

OP,

You are right that any speaker material will deteriorate, so in essence, by purchasing a 20+ year old speaker, you are buying a box, a crossover and drivers that you can only hope are in working condition.

For many of the collectible speakers -- Advent, a/d/s, VOT, etc. there are people who make their living re-coning, replacing etc. to bring them back to working condition. Some will even say they make them better than the original.

So, if the speaker company is out of business, then you may need to find compatible replacements, if they have worn out parts. But there are definitely old designs that are worth repairing and listening to.

You two are kidding right? :rolleyes:

No, Im not kidding....the probability that a 20 year speaker has survived flawless like is low and there are new designs out there that have better measurements then in the past. Guys like Geddes are not repeating the same theories from 20 years ago, they have done new things.

Most are being re-built.....conclusion 20 year old speakers have NOTHING over new speakers. You do understand that if you rebuild a 20 year speaker its not a 20 year speaker any more don't you?

No, penngray better tell all those vintage die hard klipsch horn lovers to dump their speakers for the new superior klipschs :D

not at all. Im a huge Klipsch horn fan for more then 30 years.

Of course Im not the guy posting that 8" drivers are better then 12" drivers and that the size of the driver defines how tight it is :eek:

These are not mine - yet. It's a free design for DIYers at
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Galactica.html
Tony Gee seems to have a thing for cloning Avalon designs. (This is not an exact Isis clone, only the cabinets are similar.)

Thanks for the link - I like the name "Galactica"!

I just scanned though quickly but I didn't see any info on the finish - looks like it could be that textured truck bed liner. I still need to put a finish on my midbass horns, but I need ideas.

Good luck with your build!

These are not mine - yet. It's a free design for DIYers at
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Galactica.html
Tony Gee seems to have a thing for cloning Avalon designs. (This is not an exact Isis clone, only the cabinets are similar.)

Cool, I have TD12S, PHL1120, Neopro5i 3 ways......All three drivers are incredible and in an active setup I can change their characteristics daily.

I could build the boxes similar to look like the Galactical designs ;)

not at all. Im a huge Klipsch horn fan for more then 30 years.

Of course Im not the guy posting that 8" drivers are better then 12" drivers and that the size of the driver defines how tight it is :eek:


So the vintage klipsch horns are better than the new ones? How do you explain that? And you disagree smaller woofers have better response times?

So the vintage klipsch horns are better than the new ones? How do you explain that? And you disagree smaller woofers have better response times?


Vintage klipsch horns if still 100% are better then new ones because they are not built the same way any more, and vintage matters :D....economies of scale.

Yes, I 100% disagree with you on your silly generic opinion that smaller woofers automatically have better response times......ask anyone that builds drivers what determines response times....its not the size of the woofer.....I would suggest you get that answer before posting again about this topic.

Are 12" and 15" sloppy with a lot of overhang notes?

Why does Vifa make 7" that go down to the 40's and many 6.5" will go down to 44hz?

Why do Rogers LS/3 sale so high? Why do Spendor and Harbeth copy these antiquated speakers?

Why do Ref3a Speakers MM di Capo i with a 8.25" woofer go below 40hz solidly? With out even a crossover! Just Duelund wire and caps.

Heaven's! If we're going to have a pissing match, let's not keep the bar at the reality show level. :D

Are 12" and 15" sloppy with a lot of overhang notes?

According to penngray, he knows of some 18's that are the least sloppy, tightest bass there is :)

The greatest development in stereo is speakers. Sorry Chu Gai, a guy has to take a leak some time. There is nothing more real to a crack/audiophile than his system.

I have no interest in, and would not spend money on horns. However, to each their own and I would certainly buy 20+ year old speakers provided I liked them.
Examples:
B&W 808
B&W 801, 802
Linn Isobarik
Celestion SL(x)00, SL(x)000
Any ATC, any time, any place.

Heck, I'd even use older speakers for pub or HT:
Celestion Rock Box, Celestion Rock Monitor.

Buying new speakers when there are so many in need of a good home is a bit like buying a pet from a breeder when there are so many in rescues...

According to penngray, he knows of some 18's that are the least sloppy, tightest bass there is :)

uh??

Its extremely funny that you are trying to mock my IB array with 4 18" drivers, you simply have zero knowledge about IB arrays and how they are the best designs for many reasons.

But keep posting, your opinion on this topic gets dumber by the post. Im enjoying the laugh :D

btw, you still haven't posted that silly opinion you have in the DIY forum....scared? ;)

OP,

You are right that any speaker material will deteriorate, so in essence, by purchasing a 20+ year old speaker, you are buying a box, a crossover and drivers that you can only hope are in working condition.

For many of the collectible speakers -- Advent, a/d/s, VOT, etc. there are people who make their living re-coning, replacing etc. to bring them back to working condition. Some will even say they make them better than the origina

So, if the speaker company is out of business, then you may need to find compatible replacements, if they have worn out parts. But there are definitely old designs that are worth repairing and listening to.

Would not change my 25+ year old ADS monitors for anything!!! They sound as good as ever. And my KLH speakers form the 60s with their solid 1/2 inch walnut cabinet make excellent lamp stands!!:D:D:D:D

No, Im not kidding....the probability that a 20 year speaker has survived flawless like is low and there are new designs out there that have better measurements then in the past. Guys like Geddes are not repeating the same theories from 20 years ago, they have done new things.

Most are being re-built.....conclusion 20 year old speakers have NOTHING over new speakers. You do understand that if you rebuild a 20 year speaker its not a 20 year speaker any more don't you?

I have 17-20 year old speakers that work fine, just got through listening to them a few days ago, so your bias against old speakers is rooted from a sick and strange fixation on the latest reveiws in arrogant and self absorded magazines like stereophile and What-hif?!

Myself, I don't so much object to used, old speakers, but I think the prices of many are terribly inflated. What was hot back then is not so much a big thing today especially if they'd benefit from a recapping job on the crossovers. Factor in that equivalent replacements for things you may need sometimes don't even exist, I tend to think the prices seen at places like Audiogon are artificially jacked. I mean, the Motorola Razr phone was something in its day, but today?

I have 17-20 year old speakers that work fine, just got through listening to them a few days ago, so your bias against old speakers is rooted from a sick and strange fixation on the latest reveiws in arrogant and self absorded magazines like stereophile and What-hif?!

No. He is able to build speakers for less than what you/we are able to buy comparable ones for. By going DIY you can save a lot of money......if you know what you're doing. penn apparently does. ;)

Chu, you still listening to those Legacy's?

fiesty, I lament the day I sold my a/d/s at a garage sale. They were the best sounding speakers I have ever owned. Fine walnut cabinets and that silk tweet that sang like a pretty bird.

Yes, no plans to change unless I decide to give them to my oldest, but then he'd have to settle down into a place that has some semblance of permanancy. I figure at some point a person has to get around to listening to music and such every now and then. That said, I'm more interested in how my garden is going to turn out and I'm eagerly waiting for real tomatoes. You know what they say in sports, 'Sometimes the best trades are the ones you didn't make.' Like, how happy was Detroit when looking for a change, they let Billups go and picked up Iverson. 'Course, if the Celtics make it to the championship and win in 5, I'll have to reconsider.

I have 17-20 year old speakers that work fine, just got through listening to them a few days ago, so your bias against old speakers is rooted from a sick and strange fixation on the latest reveiws in arrogant and self absorded magazines like stereophile and What-hif?!


Yeah..That is the ticket. You really told him. BTW I am sure there are people who have 20 year old "many things" that work "fine". What does that have to do with anything? Because YOU think YOUR 20 year old speakers are "fine" means that there is no way a new speaker could out perform them? I think that is pretty ignorant thinking and also a pretty sad reason to launch an attack at a poster here who has a hell of a lot moe A/V knowledge and respect here than you do.

I have 17-20 year old speakers that work fine, just got through listening to them a few days ago, so your bias against old speakers is rooted from a sick and strange fixation on the latest reveiws in arrogant and self absorded magazines like stereophile and What-hif?!

wow, you got some bite in you today for a kid your age. I do not read stereophile or what-hif.....

You also didnt read my post well enough because you do not understand what I posted. I have ZERO bias against any speaker, Im simply a measurement, manufacturing specs, design theory person.

I simply posted that in general 20 year speakers are not great ONLY BECAUSE they do not last...the material used over time have significant probability of having problems. You can have your 17 year old speakers (can you even afford speakers? ;) ). I build new speakers monthly giving old ones to friends and family just for fun. Some of us actually work and make money in the real world ;)

Any more attacks? or are your parents calling you for dinner? These attacks are coming out of the woodwork everywhere today :eek:

Yeah..That is the ticket. You really told him. BTW I am sure there are people who have 20 year old "many things" that work "fine". What does that have to do with anything? Because YOU think YOUR 20 year old speakers are "fine" means that there is no way a new speaker could out perform them? I think that is pretty ignorant thinking and also a pretty sad reason to launch an attack at a poster here who has a hell of a lot moe A/V knowledge and respect here than you do.

I never sid that no other speaker could outperform them, i sure a pair of KEF speakers and a set of paradigms could outperform them.

I have 17-20 year old speakers that work fine, just got through listening to them a few days ago, so your bias against old speakers is rooted from a sick and strange fixation on the latest reveiws in arrogant and self absorded magazines like stereophile and What-hif?!

Let me guess, your grounded again aren't you?

That's cold Russ, but I can't help grinning :D

Ugg..I must be in trouble then. Mine are 28 years old. They look awesome and sound fabulous but damn there old. I thought adding in ALK crossovers would help but damn they are old. What do you think I should do

What do you think I should do

Give them to me!

Old speakers can and do sound great. Sure you could probably beat them with newer megga high end 30K + offerings and sure their are new $3K bookshelf speaker that might two one or two things better, but show me modern small speaker at any price that can do justice to live recordings at live volumes as well as those Klipsch speakers.

PS I like the color of your room. I have a 1890's Victorian and I think that color would suit my HT room

Ugg..I must be in trouble then. Mine are 28 years old. They look awesome and sound fabulous but damn there old. I thought adding in ALK crossovers would help but damn they are old. What do you think I should do

They'd sound really good with some ICE amps. ;)

They'd sound really good with some ICE amps. ;)

Here is a pic of my Hybrid center. Uses 2 Klipsch KV1089 10" drivers, K52 midrange horn, and a K77 horn tweeter. 42"x14"x15" 3/4 marine grade oak ply. When I built her I needed a center that could keep up with the La Scala's as I did not have room for another La Scala, although I do now, she sounds so good there is no need

but show me modern small speaker at any price that can do justice to live recordings at live volumes as well as those Klipsch speakers.


Pi speakers

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/105

Of course they do not look modern ;)

uh??

Its extremely funny that you are trying to mock my IB array with 4 18" drivers, you simply have zero knowledge about IB arrays and how they are the best designs for many reasons.


So it's the enclosure that makes your 18's not have sloppy boomy bass? Or the actual subwoofer design, or both? I still think it's funny you claim a 18in has the tightest 'fastest' bass. But hey, your the expert.

If you like to see more pics here is a link. The HT has changed some since these were taken. Changed out projector, removed the columns which housed the Heresy's and made some nice shelves for the Heresy's to sit on.

Yea I would love to add some tube amps but it would set me back a small fortune for 7 of them.

whoops


http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc134/scooterdog4u/

our some Unity designs

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=38&id=254

Here is a pic of my Hybrid center. Uses 2 Klipsch KV1089 10" drivers, K52 midrange horn, and a K77 horn tweeter. 42"x14"x15" 3/4 marine grade oak ply. When I built her I needed a center that could keep up with the La Scala's as I did not have room for another La Scala, although I do now, she sounds so good there is no need

Note the 'wink' at the end. I'd probably run 30-40 watt tubes.

So it's the enclosure that makes your 18's not have sloppy boomy bass? Or the actual subwoofer design, or both? I still think it's funny you claim a 18in has the tightest 'fastest' bass. But hey, your the expert.

I never once posted that 18in has the tightest reponse.

I simply posted that you are incorrect to assume that smaller sized woofers (8 or 10") have tighter response because of their size. My only point would to say that 18" drivers CAN have the same tight response. It just takes bigger, better motor.

This is and has been a silly arguement with you, its like arguing that a 1000lbs car is faster then a 5000lbs car because of the weight difference.....we can put a better engine in the 5000lbs car to beat the 1000lbs car. Do you understand yet? My 3 year old understands things quicker :eek:

Now, please stay on the topic of the thread.

So it's the enclosure that makes your 18's not have sloppy boomy bass? Or the actual subwoofer design, or both? I still think it's funny you claim a 18in has the tightest 'fastest' bass. But hey, your the expert.

If we all heard the same we would only need one thread to discuss how great the One sounded. It is really subjective in MHO. I think my LS have extremely tight bass albeit only down to about 40-45hz but that is what horn loading a bass driver will do. I have many debates on this and it really is not a matter of who is right or wrong. The PI you showed remind me of waht a 2 way Cornwall might look like except the Klipsch Cornwall uses and Eminece 15" with a mid and High frequeny horn array for a 3 way design. Thats my 2 cents

You know I just thought about the idea of something "old" in my world. I do not keep anything that long....well just my marriage and its still my first (14 years now :D)

I do not think I keep speakers in a room more then a couple of years actually. Upgrade, test, swap, build....there is always something new to try.

I never once posted that 18in has the tightest reponse.


Maybe i confused response with your quote here in the other thread.


"Heck and IB array with 4 18" drivers has the tightest sound possible."

This is and has been a silly arguement with you, its like arguing that a 1000lbs car is faster then a 5000lbs car because of the weight difference.....we can put a better engine in the 5000lbs car to beat the 1000lbs car. Do you understand yet? .


Not quite feeling you here. The 'handiling' of a 5000 pound car would still be laughable no matter what engine you put in it. It's going to be like a SUV compared to a ferrari. Also like comparing a boss hoss motorcycle compared to a crotch rocket :)

Pi speakers

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/105

Of course they do not look modern ;)

You'd call the pi's or the Yorkville's small? :confused:

The York's use DSL unity horn design - should be good stuff, but I wonder how well it's direct radiator bass would compare to the K's W bass bins.

If we all heard the same we would only need one thread to discuss how great the One sounded. It is really subjective in MHO. I think my LS have extremely tight bass albeit only down to about 40-45hz but that is what horn loading a bass driver will do. I have many debates on this and it really is not a matter of who is right or wrong. The PI you showed remind me of waht a 2 way Cornwall might look like except the Klipsch Cornwall uses and Eminece 15" with a mid and High frequeny horn array for a 3 way design. Thats my 2 cents


Never had the pleasure to listen to old klipsch horns but i know people still love them. My only point with penngray is i personally think multiple smaller speakers will have a more mid bass sound and integrate with subwoofers better. Designs like cerwin vega with a big 15 or even a powerful 12 just seems like a outdated design meant to be used without subwoofers. 70's 80's design.

I see you've made your way into the speaker forum.

I see you've made your way into the speaker forum.


Been here long before you ;) I see you got a new jl sub to go along with those best buy towers :D Way to go.

Zues,

You're right, that since M&K introduced the sub/satellite speaker system, that it has become the standard for HT and much speaker design. But, a system the has sats that'll reach down to 40 Hz or so has a much richer presence.

Consider the opposite (i.e. Bose) with tiny sats, and no real sub. The sound is thin.

This is a new 12" that replaced the L-100 in studio mixing....

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=914

... large drivers don't have to stress to produce lots of SPL.

I would never advocate bose or small computer looking speakers and a sub. Just i think many people get took when they see a huge tower with a big woofer and pay big prices for the intimidation factor. I would rather have a slimer tower with a bunch of little speakers and subs then a huge tower with a big woofer and then trying to integrate subwoofers with them.

I would never advocate bose or small computer looking speakers and a sub. Just i think many people get took when they see a huge tower with a big woofer and pay big prices for the intimidation factor. I would rather have a slimer tower with a bunch of little speakers and subs then a huge tower with a big woofer and then trying to integrate subwoofers with them.

That's why there are so many choices in design. If your goal is simply SPL and not so much SQ (loud music at a party for example), then a few old Cerwin Vegas would work better than the finest 5.1 or 7.1.

And you wouldn't worry about someone being mesmerized by the disco ball and knocking them over. ;)

Been here long before you ;) I see you got a new jl sub to go along with those best buy towers :D Way to go.

And you still haven't learned anything...

Your level of maturity speaks volumes. I personally do not care where a product comes from, as long as it brings pleasure to my ears.

You were ran out of the calibration forums due to your vast knowledge of video calibration, I can only imagine it'll be a matter of time before the same holds true here.

And you still haven't learned anything...

Your level of maturity speaks volumes. I personally do not care where a product comes from, as long as it brings pleasure to my ears.

You were ran out of the calibration forums due to your vast knowledge of video calibration, I can only imagine it'll be a matter of time before the same holds true here.


You are just mad you paid for calibration and are told what to watch. I tried to teach you but it was to late. What's next, you gonna call someone else in to adjust the levels of the jl sub and have someone place them for you? Did someone pick your speakers for you? Of'course i'm just ribbing you that your speakers are available at best buy, i'm sure they sound good and no doubt the jl sounds good. Get over it man.

You are just mad you paid for calibration and are told what to watch. I tried to teach you but it was to late. What's next, you gonna call someone else in to adjust the levels of the jl sub and have someone place them for you? Did someone pick your speakers for you? Of'course i'm just ribbing you that your speakers are available at best buy, i'm sure they sound good and no doubt the jl sounds good. Get over it man.

Yup, it's a conspiracy.

Not a conspiracy you color is guaranteed oversaturated and brightness will be off and vary on certain content, but believe what you want, and keep paying people to help you, and never learn anything, i don't care.

If you would like to talk about calibration, we should take this conversation to the appropriate thread, because this is not the place for it.

Would you like to head over to the calibration forum?

Would you like to head over to the calibration forum?


No, lets head over to the subwoofer forum and talk how great your new jl sub is :)

You'd call the pi's or the Yorkville's small? :confused:

The York's use DSL unity horn design - should be good stuff, but I wonder how well it's direct radiator bass would compare to the K's W bass bins.

oops, you are right, I forgot about small :D

You are just mad you paid for calibration and are told what to watch. I tried to teach you but it was to late. What's next, you gonna call someone else in to adjust the levels of the jl sub and have someone place them for you? Did someone pick your speakers for you? Of'course i'm just ribbing you that your speakers are available at best buy, i'm sure they sound good and no doubt the jl sounds good. Get over it man.

You have mocked several things people own but you really have no idea what people own or the performance/$$$ involved.

How about posting your room and what you own? If you are going to mock others be a man (although I know you are very young still) and post some pics!!

Just i think many people get took when they see a huge tower with a big woofer and pay big prices for the intimidation factor. I would rather have a slimer tower with a bunch of little speakers and subs then a huge tower with a big woofer and then trying to integrate subwoofers with them.

Not all big woofer are the same. Sure some are designed to play low, but others are designed to play loud with very little power. These types of 12" & 15" don't play very low.

My speakers would be a pretty extreme example. They are about the size of a smart car and weigh in at about 350lb each. Their 30lb 16" driver has a very light weight paper cone which is horn loaded. They don't play below 80hz, but they'll play 500-80hz with the utmost fidelity at volumes up to 130db, requiring only 70 watts.

What is so special about playing loud with only a few watts? It avoids power compression! Once you pump 1/8 to 1/10 of your rated power into a speaker, it will start heating the voice coil and you get power compression.

As I sit by watching, quietly sipping my beer waiting for a fight to break out over by the pool table.....

Odd thread coming from a guy who's bought quite a few, but I always hold out for SPECTACULAR (at least what I think are spectacular anyways ;)) deals, and never pay more than 50% (usually closer to 30%) of original MSRP on speakers 5 yrs-old or less.

But, when I go on audiogon and see what some 20+ yr-old high-end speakers go for, I have to say that I'm taken aback a bit.

The first thing I think about is the integrity of the foam and paper used to construct many of these drivers. I know rubber, co-polymers, and metals are polular now, but 20 yrs ago...a lotta stuff that, well, wears out. Ditto for the cabinet solidity....even the the finest glue in the world has a death date. :p

I mean, forget about them physically falling apart, what about the damping, rigidity and other factors that are integral to loudspeaker performance? While I know some argue that many speakers actually sound better "broken in", surely many properties of their original sound are compromised (or at least altered) by the natural degradation of materials nearly 3 decades old? Do I overstate this progression? Are most high-end loudpspeakers producing a nearly comparable sound 20 years on?

Lastly, what about the advancement in loudpseaker tech in the last 20 years? Haven't we come far enough now that spending $3,000 on a pair of new loudpseakers will probably be at LEAST as well-performing as spending $3,000 on a 24 yr-old pair of (EXP) B&W 808's (actual listing ;))? Not to mention likely warranty/cosmetic benefits. Just askin.

Just find this to be interesting, as I'm one who finds that you can many times spend 50% of the cash to get 95+% of "the" sound.

So, that said, I truly find the "tipping points" of used loudspeaker buying to be nearly fascinating. Of course there's no cut and dry rules, but would anyone here spend a good sum of money on speakers 10 or 20 years old?

James

Like all blanket statements of this nature there is some truth and some falsity.

Twenty+ year old speakers usually do need some work. But you can find people who will do a quality job for a fair price. Refoaming was perfected a long time ago.

Capacitors can be replaced. Cabinets can be refinished if they are worn. And glues are a lot better than you think. There is plenty of furniture out there that was built hundreds of years ago that holds together just fine. There is no reason that a well constructed speaker cabinet should be any different.

There have been advances in speaker design, but anyone with experience in this area knows that this has mostly come in the lower cost speaker ranges. The inexpensive speaker of today is better than the inexpensive speaker of yesterday.

However there are speakers out there that have not been improved on. After all speakers are electromechanical devices without the electronics that goes obsolete quickly.

So if you are talking 20+ year old speakers, don't worry about anything that is lower end.

But 10 year old speakers? That is getting a bit ridiculous. There are plenty of great 10 year old designs that still work fine. The foam era was over more than 10 years ago. Ten year old capacitors should still be fine. Ten years ago was 1999; speaker design has changed very little since then.

What is so special about playing loud with only a few watts? It avoids power compression! Once you pump 1/8 to 1/10 of your rated power into a speaker, it will start heating the voice coil and you get power compression.

Shhh...lets keep those kind of secrets to ourselves ;)

Hypothetically yes but my point is being missed. 20 year old speakers have a HIGH probability of having problems....20 years is a long time for any speaker to survive.

Yes, the Altec are incredible and if in flawless condition there is no question they would be great in my HT room. Ugly is okay when behind a screen ;)

btw, Im actually a BIG Geddes theories fan and out of anything that has changed in 20 years. I believe his recent research and his waveguide theories may be the single biggest change out there.

I agree that, generally speaking, one would have to do some restoration work on those old Altecs, and once done, they aren't old speakers any longer. So I'll buy into your argument.

On the single biggest change, I have to go with computer modeling. Seems to me, in my non-engineer way, that back in the day (60's-70's) speaker making was pretty much hit or miss. Throw a lot of stuff at the wall and see what sticks. A few got it right, but it seemed to be more trial and error than anything else. The pioneers found what worked and then sold that model for years. Now, it seems that it's much easier to build something that sounds good, which has led to more competition, and lower prices. Which has led to better sound for more people as there are just so many great brands and models that didn't exist. PSB, Salk, Aerial, B&W, Theil, Monitor audio, AV123, Tyler Acoustics, and I could go on forever. Back in the 60-70's we had precious few to pick from but those that we had, once restored, hold their own with anything today. Like Altec, Klipsch, Dunlavy, and a few others.

So true....The availability of measuring tools, computers, etc has definitely made it easier to build incredible speakers.

raw materials have changed too and that has an impact on the driver preformance. I think awareness of distortion, off axis response, polar response has imporved over the years, just maybe?

I know with the internet we can all become DIY pseudo experts "copying" detailed speaker builds from true experts and doing it all on our own taking measurements with our iPhones ;)

seems the only item dispelled from my original post was the idea that I said that 20 year old speakers were never "worth" purchasing (which I never said anyway, LOL).

I DO own a pair of Def-Tec (I know, boo, hiss) BP 2000's that are at least 10 years old and still sound incredible (to ME). I picked them up for a RIDICULOUS sum of money and have zero regrets.

My focus was more upon the 2 decade old varieties that many times need quite a bit of work and cost quite a bit right out of the gate. I understand the points of novelty and hobby, my main thrust was if those outside of those realms consider these superior sonic purchases to what 3-$4000 could purchase today. And while I realize we haven't exactly re-invented the wheel in regards to loudspeaker R&D in the last 10-20 years, perhaps I errantly assumed that at least some of those advancements rendered many of these older loudpspeakers as viable purchases for those only interested in restoration/collection or if they were priced "too good to be true".

fair enough. many great points here.


James

12" is OK, but why not go all the way up to 15" :)
My next DIY attempt for the summer will be The Galactica Project.
1"
6.5"
12"
15"
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f366/salamalekos/Galactica_html_4f72c36e.jpg

Because i can't afford that:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f366/salamalekos/NewPicture.jpg


HOW, those are KILLER :eek:

Shhh...lets keep those kind of secrets to ourselves ;)

Ha ha, but educating yourself on Hi-efficiency speakers isn't the issue. It's getting the wife on board that's the real challenge.

Then again the JTR tripple 8/12's and Geddey's offerings are more realistic options for most and they're not too large... you could always site MK_theaters wall of sound picture to illustarte just how small the tripple 12's really are. Tell the wife you want DSL SH-50's or JBL PRO horns and then compromise by getting the JTR's lol

While comparing prices, don't forget to factor in inflation. Dropping 4 grand in 1988 is like dropping a little over 7 grand today.

So true....The availability of measuring tools, computers, etc has definitely made it easier to build incredible speakers.

raw materials have changed too and that has an impact on the driver preformance. I think awareness of distortion, off axis response, polar response has imporved over the years, just maybe?

I know with the internet we can all become DIY pseudo experts "copying" detailed speaker builds from true experts and doing it all on our own taking measurements with our iPhones ;)

I've heard the position about material's argued many times. I don't know that I completly buy into it. I'm open minded on the subject but some of the finest speakers I have heard, both old and new, use drivers made from treated paper/pulp products. So does titanium et al really make a significant impact on sq? Not sure. I think it's more how that material is implemented than what it is. But as I said, I'm open minded on the subject.

To the OP, if I had a $5K budget and was looking for speakers I'd snatch up a used pair of Dunlavy SCIVa's for half that amount, do a little restoration if needed and still have money in the bank. or even a used pair of Aerial 10T's. If I had a acoustically transparant screen I'd jump on a pair of Altec model 19's in a heartbeat just for the hell of it. :D

My focus was more upon the 2 decade old varieties that many times need quite a bit of work and cost quite a bit right out of the gate. I understand the points of novelty and hobby, my main thrust was if those outside of those realms consider these superior sonic purchases to what 3-$4000 could purchase today.

Well in all honesty new speakers do some things better (Flatter FR, lower bass, compact size), while the old stuff will do other things better (namely dynamics and high SPL)

Obviously some vintage prices are inflated due to collectivity and nostalgia, while others can hold their own with some time and effort spent on refurbishing.

Then there are vintage speakers that hobbyist have reinvented with updated crossovers, added drivers and cabinet tweaks.

Here's a link to one such speaker owned as a reference by a french audiophile magazine.

http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=fr_en&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.melaudia.net%2FecouteRDS0506.php

I love this Zues guy!

Awesome!

I skimmed over most of this thread, but I've owned and listened to many "vintage speakers" over the last few years. I own sets that originally sold for $1800/pr & $1400/pr in 87-88, they cost me $500 and $100 respectively. I haven't heard anything I prefer at the boutiques in my area that offered the "wow" I get and only a couple of others in the vintage segment, Carver Amazing Plats, ALIII+s and Dahlquist 10s that offered something different, though comparable that tempted me. Yeah, I had to replace a driver and opted to upgrade tweeters and a crossover refresh is somewhere in the near future, but I'm still quite abit ahead in the $$$ area. I couldn't find anything in the $5K and beyond area that I liked as much.

Vintage is a heck of a way to explore higher quality gear at reasonable prices.

Most are being re-built.....conclusion 20 year old speakers have NOTHING over new speakers. You do understand that if you rebuild a 20 year speaker its not a 20 year speaker any more don't you?

I couldn't have said it any better. If one buys vintage speakers, or still has fairly high end speakers bought 20~30 years ago, then expect to have to at least re-build them.

Better yet, while having the woofers re-foamed or re-coned, tweeters rebuilt, might as well build new crossovers and upgraded crossovers at that. The poly caps available today are much better than the caps used back then. And then there are the class A crossover designs that didn't exist back then either. Once you put all that together, you've got one hell of a speaker.

I've got speakers that date back 30 years and have completely re-built/upgraded them to the point they are new speakers. And better than many speaker sold today.
And I've had people here that have asked if I'd sell them. Well, I'm not interested in selling them, I enjoy listening to them too much.

I love this Zues guy!

Awesome!

You would be one of only a few ;)

I have a 15 year old pair of Carver Amazing Loud Speakers that I would put up against almost any new speaker at any price as far as sound quality goes.

I also have a pair of ESS Heil AMT1-C's, Infinity Quantum III's, and Thiel CS2's that would trounce most new stuff on the market...

Speaker arguments are always funny to me. I think the biggest problem is that value has to be considered in any discussion about such a subjective component and that becomes the tripping point.

High end forums such as this tend to habitually ignore that portion of the equation, which regardless of my age, income bracket, or wiener size, will always annoy me. Insulting people with modest budgets or that are trying to learn and enjoy our hobby... I find it sickening.

I think there is no question that materials and technology have advanced in the past 10 years, especially 20. But I also think there are some very strong arguments if you compare on an equal money basis (what can I get for $500?), because I also have absolutely no doubt that quality of construction and the actual materials used at a given price point are by no means necessarily superior in modern speakers.

So, I think if you were to compare new selling prices of 15 year old speakers and current speakers... then it would become very hard to defend the old guys. But when I can pick up a pair of old speakers that originally sold for $2,000 for $250... well, I can say I won't be particularly dedicated to either camp and will have to evaluate my options.

I definitely think old shopping becomes a lot more worthwhile to consider if you are on a budget and don't mind a little tinkering. Similar in the same way there are people out there that will never buy a used car, and people that will never buy a new car. I know for what I paid for my current fronts (which I love) there is nothing available new at the same cost that is comparable.

There are 20 year old speaker designs that hold up well today. Wilson Audio, Thiel, Vandersteen. Case in point my B&W Matrix 3 series 2. 36"Hx10"x 16"D. 2.5 way with alum dome tweeter, and 2 200mm drivers, one for mids and one for Lows. Can be Bi wired and has overload protection circuit. 91 dba sensitivity Paid $2200 in 1989.
So What?
I prefer the sound of a sealed box design over ported bass reflex. (I settled for a Focal 800 series system for TV/Movies). No port chuffing at higher listening levels. Tight and defined bass. Flat ( +- 1.5db) from response from 70hz to 20khz. B&W doesn't make sealed box floorstanders much, if at all, anymore.
Narrow width speakers were rare in 89, but are the norm today, these image very well with grills off.
The drivers use Butyl rubber surrounds and seem to be as compliant today as new, but who knows.
Cabinets are rock solid
I have seen these at $700 per pair and I would buy these again for music or Cinema.
I did some listening at Denon AD dealer last week looking for a new receiver for the TV room. Paradigm Model 9 are a great speaker for the bucks, $1300 pair?, extend a little lower than my B&W but the top end isn't as sweet, seem a little congested in mid bass... but none of this matters when I listen or watch AC/DC,Bruce, or U2. But when it is time for Miles, Horowitz, or Art Pepper my 20 year olds are tough to better for less than $3,000 new. Choices, Choices

I' m still looking for a speaker that will better my 12 year old IRS Sigma, for $4K or less. That Avalon Isis clone (The Galactica) might do it, but i' m not so sure. Many speakers sound good but only a few sound "Majestic". :)

I' m still looking for a speaker that will better my 12 year old IRS Sigma, for $4K or less. That Avalon Isis clone (The Galactica) might do it, but i' m not so sure. Many speakers sound good but only a few sound "Majestic". :)

Check out a pair of Carver Amazings...