I've had my ES20 over 3 years now.After a years worth of recordings,it started not finalizing DVD's.I got the latest firmware update,and that seemed to fix it for awhile,then it started it again.You would actually hold your breath hoping it would finalize a movie you recorded.After reading the article on here about cleaning the spindle,I decided to try it.Man;it works like new!:)I guess all that dirt and grit on the spindle caused the disc to actually slip some.After cleaning it real good with alcohol and a q-tip,it holds the spindle tight now.I appreciate the info here on this site with all those good instructions!If anyone wants the link,just search this site for"ES20 cleaning spindle"and you'll find a link.I love my Panny!!!!

.You would actually hold your breath hoping it would finalize a movie you recorded.

We've all been there, but little do most people know it only takes the 20 minute cleaning procedure to make everything better:)
Unfortunately any discs damaged by a slipping spindle are usually unreadable or at the least unfinalizable, even after cleaning the spindle:(
Keep the old one going, because as the saying goes, they don't make em' like that anymore:cool:

I finally cleaned my ES20 for the first time a few days ago. It hung up after formatting a new DVD-RAM disc. So far it's working great again.

My EZ17 I have cleaned twice, and it's newer.

The drives in the two machines look completely different. I wonder since the EZ17 is newer if the drive is made a lot cheaper and therefore loses grip on the disc more easily. I wonder if you can shim up the rubber on the hub just a bit so that it will grip tighter. Not a lot, maybe something like the thickness of a sheet of paper. I'll have to examine this next time it's apart for cleaning.

I'm surprised this has never occurred to me to mention until today, but:

Have any of you with this Panasonic slippage problem ever tried "GC Electronics Belt & Drive Non-Slip Coating"? For all the world this looks like a bottle of rubber cement, complete with little brush mounted in the screw-on cap. Once applied to a surface and dried, it leaves a long-lasting "grippy" (not sticky) textured residue that works amazingly well to solve slippage problems. I specifically bought it several years ago hoping it would solve an extremely annoying problem with high-end Nakamichi CD players (within a year or less time, their tray open-close belts stretch slightly and begin slipping on the nylon pulley, preventing them from loading a CD completely, not unlike the Panasonic hub slippage). In desperation I applied a thin coating to the grooves of the nylon pulley and it worked like a charm, my Nakamichi belts now last 3 years instead of six months. I've also used this on the drive pulleys of cranky Thorens turntables with equally good results.

I'm thinking I may eventually risk trying it in my Pioneer 640 burner (if I can ever figure out how to remove/disassemble it). The Pioneer x40 series develops slippage problems similar to the Panasonics after 18 months or so, and the same "use a trace of saliva under the the DVD clear center" trick that works for the Pannies works exactly the same way on the Pios. Unfortunately King Arthur had an easier time pulling the sword from the stone than I've had trying to yank the 640 burner from the chassis: damn thing is welded in there. Someday one of us Pio owners will get the burner open and figure out a hub cleaning procedure similar to DigaDo's for the Panasonics. Actually, maybe I should just send my 640 to DigaDo and let him have at it?:D

CitiBear,

Thanks for the suggestion.

FWIW, I've never removed the drive from either Panasonic. There were 4 screws holding on the top cover of the optical drive. Removing this exposed the hub/spindle and the laser lens. Are you saying on your Pioneer that you have to remove the drive from the chassis in order to take its cover off?

Citibear, I've mentioned a product called Re-grip. I'm not sure if it's still made but I have a small bottle of it from my VCR days. It did wonders for slipping belts and idler pulleys.
My thought was if it ever got so bad that after a cleaning the spindle still wouldn't grip the disc then it would be time to pull out the Re-grip. The reason I'm somewhat reluctant to go this route is I think what's causing the slippage is a build up of dust on the spindle. Re-grip wouldn't really help that, in fact it may even attract dust even faster than before.
For most of my DVDRs I just wait until I hear the grinding(usually close to a year) and then do the 20 minute procedure. For one 2 1/2 year old ES-15 that's at the bottom of a stack of equipment, I've been using the saliva method for the last year or so with no problems. If it starts grinding I take the disc out, moisten the bottom, re-insert it and I'm good to go. I pre-moisten the next couple discs and I'm usually good for the next couple months. It's easier than thinking about removing it from it's stack and knock on wood I haven't had a coaster in years(even with my sub par TDK and Maxell 16x media). Lately I've been mostly using 16x Sony discs from Costco when they have a BOGO coupon and again not a coaster.
I'm not sure what the less expensive machines like Funai does to hold the spindle, but they don't seem to have the same spindle slippage problem like the Pannys and Pios. A friend gave me a older Samsung DVDR and like your Pio I couldn't figure a way to take the drive apart to get to the spindle. I was toying with the idea of taking my Dremel and cutting the plastic top off the drive to gain access but I was afraid of getting plastic pieces in areas where I couldn't get them out. Truthfully I don't think spindle slippage was his problem anyway, I think it was a failing laser since CDs played, it just wouldn't record or play DVDs very reliably.

Mike99, yes, the Pio 640 (and x50 and x60) contain proprietary Sony burners that would need to be completely removed to gain access to their insides (they use the more typical wrap-around U-shaped case instead of the rather convenient "pop top" cover on the Panny burners.) Besides being really secured into the chassis, the Pio burners partially wrap around the recorder motherboard in a design so perverse you have to see it to believe it. Its tolerable only because these burners have proved remarkably durable (2-3 years before noticeable slippage or burn failures begin), and the machines run fairly cool because of it.

jjeff, yes, I think your ReGrip is probably the same as the stuff I use. Its brown-colored, when it dries it leaves a pebble-grained coating. I'm sure you're totally right that its probably not optimal for use on DVD clamps, because its dust causing the problem not "lack of grip". I'm itching to try it only because its such a hugely daunting task to disassemble a Pio 640 burner: if it would make the thing stop slipping for say a year, it would be worth the risk on a three year old recorder. My older Pios like the 510 and 531 use simpler off-the-shelf burners with modified controller boards, while time-consuming to remove and disassemble they are at least removable, the burners in the 2006 and later Pios are hopelessly stuck in there. I think I'll just wait another year until my 640 completely fails: when I have nothing left to lose I'll pry its burner out with a crowbar and reverse-engineer a way to get it out cleanly (so I can write an AVS report;)).

. . . My thought was if it ever got so bad that after a cleaning the spindle still wouldn't grip the disc then it would be time to pull out the Re-grip. The reason I'm somewhat reluctant to go this route is I think what's causing the slippage is a build up of dust on the spindle. Re-grip wouldn't really help that, in fact it may even attract dust even faster than before.

For most of my DVDRs I just wait until I hear the grinding(usually close to a year) and then do the 20 minute procedure . . . I haven't had a coaster in years(even with my sub par TDK and Maxell 16x media). Lately I've been mostly using 16x Sony discs from Costco when they have a BOGO coupon and again not a coaster.

I'm not sure what the less expensive machines like Funai does to hold the spindle, but they don't seem to have the same spindle slippage problem like the Pannys and Pios . . .

A friend gave me a older Samsung DVDR and like your Pio I couldn't figure a way to take the drive apart to get to the spindle. I was toying with the idea of taking my Dremel and cutting the plastic top off the drive to gain access but I was afraid of getting plastic pieces in areas where I couldn't get them out.

With Panasonic DVD Drives the build-up of dust and oily residue is the cause of disc slippage as the rubber hub clamps the disc against the guide wheel on the underside of the DVD Drive lid.

The first photo is a side-by-side view showing the rubber hub atop the DVD Drive spindle (turntable) and the DVD Drive lid guide wheel on a Panasonic DVD Drive from the 2006 model year. Interior views of more recent Panasonic DVD Drives will be similar. Panasonic DVD Drives before the 2006 model year are of a somewhat different design but have the same relationship between the rubber hub and drive lid guide wheel. Both designs provide easy and full access to the parts that require cleaning.

Funai DVD Drives are more open in their design as described and pictured.

The second photo shows the DVD Drive in an Emerson EWD2204 VCR/DVD player from June 2004. That DVD Drive has a rigid nylon hub. Perhaps the actual "gripping surface" is found on the underside of the guide wheel. In the Emerson the disc tray is extended, lowering the hub away from the guide wheel to provide access to the "hub" and guide wheel from the rear, as pictured, or through the open disc tray at the front. I did not observe a convenient way of removing the structure surrounding the guide wheel. This machine belongs to a relative. This Emerson's DVD playback checked out OK with several commercial and home-recorded DVDs. (Several customer reviewers described "glitches" while playing DVDs with this Emerson model. These playback "glitches" are somewhat like the read complications that indicate that a Panasonic needs a DVD Drive hub cleaning.)

The third photo shows the DVD Drive and CBA in a Sylvania ZV450SL8 VCR/DVD combo recorder from April 2007. Notice that the guide wheel and bracket assembly is screwed to the DVD Drive case. The CBA is mounted above the DVD Drive in this model. Notice that a white injet Sony 16X DVD-R disc, purchased at Costco BOGO, is seen in the disc tray.

The fourth photo shows the DVD Drive in a Magnavox H2080MW8 HDD/DVD recorder from July 2007. This DVD Drive is similar in design to that of the Sylvania but the CBA assembly is mounted beside the DVD Drive.

To date I have made no attempt to lift the guide wheel assemblies or clean DVD Drives in my Sylvania, Magnavox and Philips recorders.

CitiBear,

Is it possible to use a long Q-tip and just insert it through the disc opening? Or would the disc tray be in the way?

They make DVDs to clean the laser lens & it must somehow contact the lens with a soft surface. Maybe it's time to make a DVD that cleans the hub/spindle. Somehow carefully attach an absorbent material like a sheet of paper or thin ink blotter paper to the hub of a DVD. Then apply a couple drops of alcohol to the paper and insert & eject the disc a few times, hopefully picking up at least some of the dirt.

DigaDo,

Thanks for the comparison photos.

Mike99, Using a long handled q-tip one is able to somewhat clean the spindle on a Panasonic. The trick is to eject the disc tray and then unplug the machine. Then gently manually move the tray in or out to the correct position, use a Maglight to help see. Using this method it's easiest to slowly spin the q-tip between your fingers, it's rather hard to get much back and forth movement because the spindle keeps moving along with the q-tip.
Long wooden handled q-tips are commonly used in the medical industry. Next time you're in a exam room waiting for the Dr. check the drawers of the exam table. I'll bet you see quite a few 2 packs of them, at least they're in most of the tables I've worked on;)

^^What about dabbing a little bit of alcohol underneath the edge of the disc's center hole, then inserting the disc in tray and closing? The saliva method works for you, so wouldn't that as well?

Nice idea, Westley-C, but unfortunately you need something absorbent or textured holding the alcohol, so that the grime gets trapped and removed. The smooth surface of a DVD with some alcohol on it wouldn't scrape anything off, and might make it worse by loosening it and spreading it around more. I've tried the long-handle swabs with the Pio 640, but theres just no way to wrangle it in thru the tray opening that accomplishes anything.

I can sorta understand why they would make these recorders "non-serviceable" in the old days, when they probably hoped people would just replace them as they wore out, but they must have seen the handwriting on the wall at least two years ago that these recorders were a dead end. Pioneer, if no one else, should have had enough sense to design their final recorders so they could at least be disassembled for servicing. They knew they would abandon the USA market in 2006, and they still stuck us with this sealed-forever design. The seal would be fine if it actually kept dirt out, but it doesn't, making it nothing but a repair obstruction.:mad:

With that, I realize I'm in the wrong thread, this one is really more about Panasonic spindle cleaning. Although considering how many times DigaDo has patiently (and valuably) answered this question in multiple threads, maybe its OK that I hijacked this one for a moment while he rests ;).

^^What about dabbing a little bit of alcohol underneath the edge of the disc's center hole, then inserting the disc in tray and closing? The saliva method works for you, so wouldn't that as well?

I've done this, albeit with an old CD player, and it actually worked OK. YMMV.

I've alway heard that you shouldn't use alcohol to clean rubber, as it can cause rubber to dry out and crack.

I've alway heard that you shouldn't use alcohol to clean rubber, as it can cause rubber to dry out and crack.

Often a DVD Drive rubber hub cleaning at eight to ten month intervals, with isopropyl rubbing alcohol 91% and a cotton swab, makes the difference between a functional or non-functional Panasonic DVD recorder.

My experience comes from nearly four years of heavy use distributed over sixteen currently functional Panasonic ES and EZ series DVD recorders (and one semi-functional ES series DVD recorder awaiting evaluation or rebuilding). At last report one of these Panasonics had accumulated around 4,400 recording hours, five others averaged more than 3,000 recording hours per machine, four others averaged 1,000-1,400 recording hours per machine, four others averaged 200-800 recording hours per machine and three others averaged fewer than 200 recording hours per machine.

All the "high mileage" Panasonics are semi-retired but may be returned to daily use, if needed, in a matter of minutes.

Rubber shouldn't be constantly exposed to alcohol(case in point ethanol that can reek havoc on older cars and small engines) but just for cleaning alcohol should be fine. Personally I use tape head cleaner for spindle cleaning but it's more due to how handy it is to use. I have it in a spray can vs. a bottle for the alcohol.