For the record, I casually compared the new Samsung 58" 860 plasma to the beloved Kuro at Magnolia. The 860 was brighter, naturally sharper and offered better motion resolution. In an aerial view of a city, the Samsung offered greater clarity. Even so too with just a person’s face. The Kuro seemed a bit mis-focused in comparison.

Both had comparable black levels in the subdued lighting environment. The Kuro had more accurate deep reds with the uncalibrated 860 being a bit orange.

Power efficiency: While the 860 screen was not as hot as the Kuro, it still got fairly warm.

With a MSRP of $3200 the 58" 860 deserves serious consideration. My preliminary finding is I would purchase the 860 over the Kuro, without even taking (its double) price into consideration.

Only one Amazon customer review so far:
"As good if not better than Pioneer Elite. Just a stunning image. Incredibly thin. Best electronics purchase I have ever made."

I wholeheartedly agree. Notice the 860 plasma and the 9000 series local-dimming LCD are being released last of the 209 models. Apparently Samsung saves its best for last. :)

Not surprised at your findings. Other than the reds being a little off, everything you saw in the Sammy is what I frequently find in that comparison.

That is why I often say let your eyes decide. I'm pretty confident the Sammy will come out on top most of the time, even when compared to the kuros.:cool:

HiFi - I noticed some of your posts in another thread discussing 1080p24...

What do you think about the 58B850 vs. the 58B860, assuming that the 860 has Cinema Smooth and the 850 does not?

Thanks!

If the Samsung looked better to you, then go for it, nothing wrong with that, but comparisons in the store without setting both up the same are not the best way to compare TV's.

...but comparisons in the store without setting both up the same are not the best way to compare TV's.

I see this repeated all the time here. Unless you are a professional reviewer, how else does one compare two models of TV from different manufacturers? If both TVs are near each other and running the same feed, what more could you ask for?

HiFi - I noticed some of your posts in another thread discussing 1080p24...

What do you think about the 58B850 vs. the 58B860, assuming that the 860 has Cinema Smooth and the 850 does not?

Thanks!
Samsung's motion interpolation is among the best, if not the best. Samsung is pushing plasma technology up to 96Hz refresh rate too. Recommended along with 24p as there is less judder and gaps in motion between frames. A true benefit when used in moderation.

I see this repeated all the time here. Unless you are a professional reviewer, how else does one compare two models of TV from different manufacturers? If both TVs are near each other and running the same feed, what more could you ask for?


I ask for the remotes and set both up to where I think I would like the picture if I had it at home. Some take content to the store and ask to be played thru the TV's they are thinking of purchasing. Otherwise, one might be in Movie mode while the other is in Sport introducing a lot of artifacts on the screen.

Go w/ the Samsung. Pioneer has stopped making televisions and really got "off the bus" a year or so back.

Samsung's motion interpolation is among the best, if not the best. Samsung is pushing plasma technology up to 96Hz refresh rate too. Recommended along with 24p as there is less judder and gaps in motion between frames. A true benefit when used in moderation.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'moderation.' Either you turn Cinema Smooth on or off, right?

Go w/ the Samsung. Pioneer has stopped making televisions and really got "off the bus" a year or so back.

They did not get off yet, they did make the announcement that they would stop manufacturing plasmas, but that was in February of this year and kept producing plasmas after that.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'moderation.' Either you turn Cinema Smooth on or off, right?
For 2009 Samsung has fined-tuned the motion interpolation.

For the 240Hz LCD's there is a clear preset setting or set the custom blur and judder sliders. It should be ** roughly ** similiar for the plasma too, as Samsung uses common menus across their lines:
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/sc/33490659-2-300-DT9.jpg

I'm pretty sure AMP is something completely different than Cinema Smooth...which is just 24p like it is supposed to be...but at 72 or 96 hz...right?

Juan: As of Feb they have stopped. Correct. What you see in the stores is stock being sold off. Big Box stores don't particularly like to advertise this. As a CI, my distributors have been out of stock or been pushing other brands since. Would you buy a Honda Civic if they were only going to make motorcycles and lawnmowers in the future.

But I just bought a 6020fd, and I want it to be the best forever.

In all seriousness, Samsung is really the only one who's put anything out this year that looks, to my eyes, tangibly improved over last year. IR is still out of control, at least on the three sets I've examined personally, but image quality has advanced significantly beyond what my A550 produces.

Juan: As of Feb they have stopped. Correct. What you see in the stores is stock being sold off. Big Box stores don't particularly like to advertise this. As a CI, my distributors have been out of stock or been pushing other brands since. Would you buy a Honda Civic if they were only going to make motorcycles and lawnmowers in the future.


I don't think that is correct as I read here in of the threads that they would continue manufacturing plasmas thru out this year. I will look for the thread. A car is a way bigger investment than a TV, so no I would not, but any TV that is manufactured has parts made for spare and warranty work, after that TV's model stops, they don't continue to manufacture parts for it.

Juan: As of Feb they have stopped. Correct. What you see in the stores is stock being sold off. Big Box stores don't particularly like to advertise this. As a CI, my distributors have been out of stock or been pushing other brands since. Would you buy a Honda Civic if they were only going to make motorcycles and lawnmowers in the future.

One of the forum sponsors can clarify this, but I believe Pioneer has a few years worth of repair parts at hand. So anyone purchasing a Kuro is covered for some time.

Pioneer announced by March 2010 it will be completely out of the TV business and will concentrate on car and audio/visual systems. That's just under a year to be COMPLETELY out. There are tons of Pioneer plasma's out there to sell, with some of the latest models still being made. I'm just saying.. as a "small" a/v business distributors are already separating themselves.

Here is the thread I was talking about. I am just stating what I have read and in no way mean to get into an argument.:)

Lynk. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1130017&highlight=pioneer+stop)

;)

The new Samsung plasma sure is a looker. I can say that I am a fan.

I compared the new 63" which sat RIGHT NEXT to the 151, and they were both in torch mode. The Samsung was a tad brighter, but had less detail than the Elite, and the colors were much more natural looking on the Elite. The Elites superior contrast was evident, which would explain its greater detail.

As far as blacks were concerned, there was no contest. With letterboxing, the Samung had a deep charcoal gray look to them, while the Kuros blended right into the bezel.

The Samsung had a loud buzzing sound coming from behind the panel, but was inaudible at the 7ft that I was veiwing it from. I can also say that the Samsungs run MUCH hotter.

The Elite also had a buzzing coming from it, just not as severe, but again, inaudible from the 7ft.

The Kuro also did a much better job with the cleaning up the DirecTv feed they had playing through component to all the sets they had, other than the Sharp, which surprisingly, had the least amount of noise, and did the best job processing.

Samsung's motion interpolation is among the best, if not the best. Samsung is pushing plasma technology up to 96Hz refresh rate too. Recommended along with 24p as there is less judder and gaps in motion between frames. A true benefit when used in moderation.

I would disagree with this, as Sonys Motionflow has a more natural, fluid motion to their interpolation. It reduces the blur, while keeping the picture looking more like film than video.

The Samsungs are looking more and more "soapy" (A la Chadmak) with their interpolation, where as the Sonys, it is a bit more difficult to discern it is even on its lowest setting.

But I just bought a 6020fd, and I want it to be the best forever.

In all seriousness, Samsung is really the only one who's put anything out this year that looks, to my eyes, tangibly improved over last year. IR is still out of control, at least on the three sets I've examined personally, but image quality has advanced significantly beyond what my A550 produces.

I have to agree with this in regards to PQ. So far, I have not been impressed with Panasonics offerings. The Samsungs look better to my eyes, especially in brighter enviornments. The Panasonics have an odd green haze to them, and the dithering is extremely excessive. The Samsungs look absolutely fantastic. The only complaint I would have, would be that their black levels still seem subpar.

I'm pretty sure AMP is something completely different than Cinema Smooth...which is just 24p like it is supposed to be...but at 72 or 96 hz...right?

It sure is different, but HiFun (or w/e his name is) never fails to turn every thread into a Samsung LCD lovefest.

That is why I commented above regarding his comment of Samsung being "the best" with their frame interpolation.

I just watched a PN50B850 at Magnolia not even an hour ago.

It's a fantastic looking set for sure. They had it nearby a 6020 Kuro (both seperately playing a loop of a King Kong Blu-Ray) and I tried hard to discern a difference in motion resolution. After soaking in each for a while neither looked any better than the other in that area. Both were nice and crisp.

Beyond that, there's little point in making any comparisons. Both sets were far from setup optimally and they didn't have remotes within easy reach.

For the record, I casually compared the new Samsung 58" 860 plasma to the beloved Kuro at Magnolia. The 860 was brighter, naturally sharper and offered better motion resolution. In an aerial view of a city, the Samsung offered greater clarity. Even so too with just a person’s face. The Kuro seemed a bit mis-focused in comparison.

Both had comparable black levels in the subdued lighting environment. The Kuro had more accurate deep reds with the uncalibrated 860 being a bit orange.

Power efficiency: While the 860 screen was not as hot as the Kuro, it still got fairly warm.

With a MSRP of $3200 the 58" 860 deserves serious consideration. My preliminary finding is I would purchase the 860 over the Kuro, without even taking (its double) price into consideration.

Only one Amazon customer review so far:
"As good if not better than Pioneer Elite. Just a stunning image. Incredibly thin. Best electronics purchase I have ever made."

I wholeheartedly agree. Notice the 860 plasma and the 9000 series local-dimming LCD are being released last of the 209 models. Apparently Samsung saves its best for last. http://www.*****************/trafficreport/img/3721/k08t1221bbuq/gdsmile.gif


I would vote for Samsung ;)

It sure is different, but HiFun (or w/e his name is) never fails to turn every thread into a Samsung LCD lovefest.

That is why I commented above regarding his comment of Samsung being "the best" with their frame interpolation.
Now that funny! Your infatuation with Pioneer still prevents you from being objective. Try reading my leading-the-charge (since the CES) against Samsung edge-lit LED pumping (dynamic backlighting).

Anyone should be able to see the clearer picture the 860 provides over the Kuro. The difference is all to easy to see in a direct side-by-side comparison.

Lets hope the increased resolving power "doesn't end up making everything look like video". ;)

I compared the new 63" which sat RIGHT NEXT to the 151, and they were both in torch mode. The Samsung was a tad brighter, but had less detail than the Elite, and the colors were much more natural looking on the Elite. The Elites superior contrast was evident, which would explain its greater detail.

Fanaticalism,
You really are clueless as the 860 is only available in 50 and 58 inches. :o
It would be nice for everyone involved if you would take a break from posting further misinformation.

Yet proper tests and measurements continue to show that nothing beats the Kuro. These are facts rather than opinions. Move along...nothing to see here. Maybe next year...

Yet proper tests and measurements continue to show that nothing beats the Kuro. These are facts rather than opinions. Move along...nothing to see here. Maybe next year...

Umm, the proper test performed by CR last year showed Samsung beats kuro.
I have yet to see a "proper" test on the new Sammies. :cool:

As you said however, we can move along.

Yet proper tests and measurements continue to show that nothing beats the Kuro. These are facts rather than opinions. Move along...nothing to see here. Maybe next year...

Exactly.

although it would be nice to have a set this year that is actually a new groudbreaker, I really wish we could get some actual data to make this comparison other than the usual suspects claiming "it looked prettier in the store".

-Yawn- -Boooring-

Umm, the proper test performed by CR last year showed Samsung beats kuro.
I have yet to see a "proper" test on the new Sammies. :cool:

As you said however, we can move along.
You continue to claim that the Samsung plasmas are superior...and they continue to rank in third place. Overall, the Kuro's win each and every single time.

Exactly.

although it would be nice to have a set this year that is actually a new groudbreaker, I really wish we could get some actual data to make this comparison other than the usual suspects claiming "it looked prettier in the store".

-Yawn- -Boooring-
Yep. I have to laugh every time someone walks into a store and never touches a remote, changes the settings, or controls the source...yet proclaims that one display is superior to another. :D

Yep. I have to laugh every time someone walks into a store and never touches a remote, changes the settings, or controls the source...yet proclaims that one display is superior to another. :D

So very true.

My trip to Magnolia yesterday was mainly a reminder that comparison shopping displays in most stores is a futile experience. All of the Kuros they had out looked really poor, as did many other displays that wouldn't had they been properly set up.

Exactly.

although it would be nice to have a set this year that is actually a new groudbreaker, I really wish we could get some actual data to make this comparison other than the usual suspects
The reviews will come. It would be nice to see members make their own observations, without being told what is good.
This has been major stumbling block at this forum which impedes progress.

How about it Chad? This is your big opportunity. Not to be missed! :cool:

The reviews will come. It would be nice to see members make their own observations, without being told what is good.
This has been major stumbling block at this forum which impedes progress.

Ok then.

My observations:

The 6020 offered up a picture with more natural depth and detail. The 850 was a tad sharper, but that's not surprising given its 50" screen size vs the 60" of the Pioneer. Color accuracy seemed decent on both. Motion handling appeared completely even. I could not distinguish a difference no matter how hard I tried. The Samsung was incredibly thin and would look pretty snazzy hung on a wall. The Samsung was a bit brighter. If I had to make a decision based on how they were each set up at the store, I'd have chosen the 6020 (or 5020 to equalize screen size).

However, neither set was performing anywhere near its best, which is why I hestitate to make in-store comparisons unless I have full control over content and picture settings.

Fanaticalism,
You really are clueless as the 860 is only available in 50 and 58 inches. :o
It would be nice for everyone involved if you would take a break from posting further misinformation.

Did I state a model number? No I did not...

I simply stated "63"...

It was my first time seeing it, and I have not been following ALL of Samsungs models, since they have SO many this year between their LCDs and plasmas. All I know is, that the tag read 63", and was priced at 3799, which I assume was retail.

You speak of objectivity, which you are anything but. Talk about irony.

If the model number print is too fine to read, then please do ask the salesman for assistance. :)

If the model number print is too fine to read, then please do ask the salesman for assistance. :)

Thanks for the advice, but it is irrelevant to the point you tried to make.

If the model number print is too fine to read, then please do ask the salesman for assistance. :)
I positively distrust anything that comes from salesmen at the retail level. Honestly.

Thanks for the advice, but it is irrelevant to the point you tried to make.
Not to jump on you but I believe he has a valid point as the title of the thread reflects the model number that he was talking about. To come in and make reference to another Samsung isn't exactly fair. You make reference to it having better detail but you're also talking about a tv 3 inches smaller. Not a huge distinction but a disctinction none the less.

I'm not going to claim the 850/60 Samsungs beat the 9G or 8G Kuros, but I feel they are much closer in overall picture than any Panasonic plasma.

I positively distrust anything that comes from salesmen at the retail level. Honestly.
Guys,
A lot of the stuff I state is meant to be cynical, biting and humorous. Stating too much straight-truth at AVS will lead you to be cited for "inappropriate" posts. So choose your fights carefully. (My choices are to advance picture quality).
Fanaticalism knew he was comparing last year’s discontinued Samsung model. No one in their right mind ever claimed it would beat a Kuro. His real objective is to spew nonsense, kill the thread and keep the focus on the Kuro. I expected both him and Chad to run interference (which incidentally does make for lively entertainment and boosts AVS Forums ratings.) :p

Here the Samsung 860 is an awesome new product with MSRP less than 1/2 of the 60" Kuro Elites. It is clearer, brighter with excellent contrast and higher motion resolution. It may be the Samsung’s best thin screen this year (the LED’s have screen uniformity issues). It’s also being marketed to sell substantially less than the still unreleased high-end, limited distribution Panasonics. Samsung wants market share, so enjoy the bonus!

Samsung has excellent nationwide support too and is still in business (I’m obviously thinking Chrysler here guys). Conspiracy theorists will notice the introduction was coincidentally timed until them (them is a clue to sound a bit-hick) discontinued models were nearly out of stock.

As for a chronic lack of solid energy efficiency information, we need to start measuring our own power consumption - especially before purchase. The Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor costs just $22:
http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=pd_cp_e_0/192-9911337-3086420?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_r=1F9BEQHM6SN59MRB12PK&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=413863501&pf_rd_i=B000RGF29Q

No one in their right mind ever claimed it would beat a Kuro.

So you're officially stating that discopaul has never been in his right mind while posting here? ;)

Anyways...

It is clearer, brighter with excellent contrast and higher motion resolution.

I'm not sure what you mean by "clearer". I did not find the 850 to be any clearer than the 6020 I viewed nearby.

Also, what level of brightness can a properly calibrated 850/860 reach when given both a 100 IRE full screen pattern and window pattern?

So you're officially stating that discopaul has never been in his right mind while posting here? ;)

I resemble that remark :cool:

I resemble that remark :cool:
Haha...the first step to recovery. :D I'm glad to see everyone has a sense of humor today. This entire forum has been extremely tense for weeks now.

So you're officially stating that discopaul has never been in his right mind while posting here? ;)


I'm not sure what you mean by "clearer". I did not find the 850 to be any clearer than the 6020 I viewed nearby.

Also, what level of brightness can a properly calibrated 850/860 reach when given both a 100 IRE full screen pattern and window pattern?
I'm just stating what I saw. I’ll have some more observations since it’s a holiday.
Up until now Kuro was the King-of-the-Hill for those willing to pay the price premium. Especially for black level. I do love the true, deep red color too.
(Though the hard-to-get LG 3000 30" monitor's color blows all HDTV's out of the water.)
Samsung set out to take the plasma crown with the 860. They know exactly what they are doing, from performance to price. I'm simply acknowledging the obvious. Being a thin design, I don't know how the screen uniformity is going to play out. So proceed with caution, as thin display usually have performance drawbacks.
Samsungs color last year was very accurate. However they updated several key performance areas this year. (Everyone has different standards).
Obviously Samsung has limited capacity to produce the (hopefully) improved thin panels. Therefore I'd wait for confirmation from several independent sources and then only buy the 860 (its low MSRP and technology make it the best deal), as it has all the user selectable features that are commonly available in the 2009 LCD line.
In the meantime lets see if Panasonic can drop their MSRP by $1700 and do battle :)

I'm just stating what I saw.

Again, though, what you saw is not indicative of what proper adjustments to each would afford. Factory settings mean very little to me.

I am definitely interested in seeing what these new Samsungs can do once the proper care is applied.

Haha...the first step to recovery. :D I'm glad to see everyone has a sense of humor today. This entire forum has been extremely tense for weeks now.

Well, we gotta keep things in perspective. I've said quite often that the differences between the top tier models is much smaller than the bickering here implies.
That said, Samsung's PQ is SUPERIOR :cool: :D

Guys,
A lot of the stuff I state is meant to be cynical, biting and humorous. Stating too much straight-truth at AVS will lead you to be cited for "inappropriate" posts. So choose your fights carefully. (My choices are to advance picture quality).
Fanaticalism knew he was comparing last year’s discontinued Samsung model. No one in their right mind ever claimed it would beat a Kuro. His real objective is to spew nonsense, kill the thread and keep the focus on the Kuro. I expected both him and Chad to run interference (which incidentally does make for lively entertainment and boosts AVS Forums ratings.) :p

Here the Samsung 860 is an awesome new product with MSRP less than 1/2 of the 60" Kuro Elites. It is clearer, brighter with excellent contrast and higher motion resolution. It may be the Samsung’s best thin screen this year (the LED’s have screen uniformity issues). It’s also being marketed to sell substantially less than the still unreleased high-end, limited distribution Panasonics. Samsung wants market share, so enjoy the bonus!

Samsung has excellent nationwide support too and is still in business (I’m obviously thinking Chrysler here guys). Conspiracy theorists will notice the introduction was coincidentally timed until them (them is a clue to sound a bit-hick) discontinued models were nearly out of stock.

As for a chronic lack of solid energy efficiency information, we need to start measuring our own power consumption - especially before purchase. The Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor costs just $22:
http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=pd_cp_e_0/192-9911337-3086420?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_r=1F9BEQHM6SN59MRB12PK&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=413863501&pf_rd_i=B000RGF29Q

Let's see some solid contrast numbers if you don't mind.

And excellent nationwide support? Now you just sound like a Samsung rep because their customer service is far from excellent. In fact, in my dealings with Samsung (and I'm sure many on this board will back me up), they've been the absolute worst company I've ever dealt with. To put it mildly I would say that their customer service department employs practices that border on fraudulent.

If energy consumption is anywhere near the top of the list of concerns when buying a tv, you obviously are not an AV enthusiast. Most higher end models from all companies are reasonably efficient and anyone that gives two blank and a blank about PQ won't mind that their power bill is $2 more per month.

Anyone citing CR as a reputable source of information about PQ needs to have his/her head checked, for obvious reasons

...I compared the new 63" which sat RIGHT NEXT to the 151...As far as blacks were concerned, there was no contest. With letterboxing, the Samung had a deep charcoal gray look to them, while the Kuros blended right into the bezel...

I think your comparison vs. HiFiFun's comparison differ in the fact that the model you saw was likely the 550 whereas the TV he saw was the 860. I saw an 860 side by side with a 550 and the 860 has much deeper black levels due to the 860s having a deeper tint on the screens.

Therefore my guess is that in HiFiFun's in store comparison is that there was enough ambient light to make the black levels of both TVs to be on par in Magnolia setting he saw them in. However, I'd bet that if the store dimmed the lights that the Pioneer's would excel in the black levels by a bit. Cleveland Plasma had a reviewer compare the B550 and a B860 and said the black levels were about the same so I'm guessing that tinting only helps with ambient light in the room.

Anyone citing CR as a reputable source of information about PQ needs to have his/her head checked, for obvious reasons

tbird already beat you to that. You gotta be a little more creative here. :cool:

By the way, a few years when CR was mentioned here for picking the kuro as the best, was it just as disreputable?

wait for a professional review of the 860 before you judge it in a store against a kuro in less than optimal enviornment settings. Every Kuro owner knows its a night and day difference with how the Kuros look in ambient room lighting. 860 looks solid for sure though

tbird already beat you to that. You gotta be a little more creative here. :cool:

By the way, a few years when CR was mentioned here for picking the kuro as the best, was it just as disreputable?

In predictable fashion, you're missing the point entirely. I don't care about CR at all. Any information that can be gained is targeted at the mainstream-- information that is well-known and elementary in nature. Why would I place any value on this when I have the scientific results provided by trained/certified industry professionals?

Well if the Sammy 860 wants to compete with the Kuro, it will need to have blacks at least close to the Kuro. Fat chance! Chad B. said the blacks on the 860 were "not quite as deep" as the G10. I've seen the 54" G10 right smack dab next to the 60" Pio Elite at my local Magnolia. I even asked the fellows if we could turn the lights in that section all the way off, and they obliged. Obviously it was not pitch black, because there were a number of other TV's around on the walls that were still on, providing light. I didn't want to press my luck by asking to turn off all the TV's too! But it was clearly dim enough that one could notice distinct differences in black levels. The G10 was nowhere near the level of the Pio Pro 151. In fact, the 55" UB6000 directly above the G10 was noticeably blacker than the G10. Oh, I almost forgot. I grabbed the remote and took it out of vivid mode, dropped it into THX mode, dropped the brightness down, the contrast down, in short, I did everything I could to make that G10 darker---and it just came up short. The Luxia was simply darker--in fact it was not that far behind the Kuro. The blacks on the Luxia and the Kuro didn't quite blend in with the bezel--but almost. The Panny G10 was a shade or two lighter. The LG PG60 nearby looked like a cheap LCD by comparison. Very gray. Granted, that is a 2008 model.

So my own eyes in as dim a room as I could get have confirmed what Chad B. reported in his review of the Luxia. In a dark room the Luxia gives perceptibly darker blacks than the G10. To my eyes it was not all that close. The Luxia was a shade or two darker. The Pio even a bit darker still.

Now Chad B also said the blacks on the Sammy 860 were "not quite as deep" as the G10. The contrast was nowhere as impressive as with the Pioneer and the Panny as well.

So if the G10 is not as dark as the Luxia and the Pioneer, and the Sammy is not even as dark as the G10, then it sounds as if the Sammy is nowhere even close to the black levels of the Kuro. Even the G10 has a long way to go to compete.

So Samsung does have the coolness factor of being first to market with the thin displays, and for a reasonable price, but it just isn't ready to mount a serious challenge to the Kuro.

Perhaps next year?

Well if the Sammy 860 wants to compete with the Kuro, it will need to have blacks at least close to the Kuro. Fat chance! Chad B. said the blacks on the 860 were "not quite as deep" as the G10. I've seen the 54" G10 right smack dab next to the 60" Pio Elite at my local Magnolia. I even asked the fellows if we could turn the lights in that section all the way off, and they obliged. Obviously it was not pitch black, because there were a number of other TV's around on the walls that were still on, providing light. I didn't want to press my luck by asking to turn off all the TV's too! But it was clearly dim enough that one could notice distinct differences in black levels. The G10 was nowhere near the level of the Pio Pro 151. In fact, the 55" UB6000 directly above the G10 was noticeably blacker than the G10. Oh, I almost forgot. I grabbed the remote and took it out of vivid mode, dropped it into THX mode, dropped the brightness down, the contrast down, in short, I did everything I could to make that G10 darker---and it just came up short. The Luxia was simply darker--in fact it was not that far behind the Kuro. The blacks on the Luxia and the Kuro didn't quite blend in with the bezel--but almost. The Panny G10 was a shade or two lighter. The LG PG60 nearby looked like a cheap LCD by comparison. Very gray. Granted, that is a 2008 model.

So my own eyes in as dim a room as I could get have confirmed what Chad B. reported in his review of the Luxia. In a dark room the Luxia gives perceptibly darker blacks than the G10. To my eyes it was not all that close. The Luxia was a shade or two darker. The Pio even a bit darker still.

Now Chad B also said the blacks on the Sammy 860 were "not quite as deep" as the G10. The contrast was nowhere as impressive as with the Pioneer and the Panny as well.

So if the G10 is not as dark as the Luxia and the Pioneer, and the Sammy is not even as dark as the G10, then it sounds as if the Sammy is nowhere even close to the black levels of the Kuro. Even the G10 has a long way to go to compete.

So Samsung does have the coolness factor of being first to market with the thin displays, and for a reasonable price, but it just isn't ready to mount a serious challenge to the Kuro.

Perhaps next year?


What's with the continued comparison to Kuros. Pinoneer stopped making making them... correct? ;)

Exactly.

although it would be nice to have a set this year that is actually a new groudbreaker, I really wish we could get some actual data to make this comparison other than the usual suspects claiming "it looked prettier in the store".

-Yawn- -Boooring-

chaulk it up to wishfull thinking by the usual Samsung fans

What's with the continued comparison to Kuros. Pinoneer stopped making making them... correct? ;)
...because they are still available and are still the best displays on the market without question.

The reviews will come.

Although not very detailed, here is a review of the PS50B650 UK Version.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2009/04/16/Samsung-PS50B650-50in-plasma-TV/p1

According to Chad B's report, there should be only minor differences between the 860 and the smaller models.

Here a review of the same page of a KRP-500A, very similar to the Pro-101FD Signature Elite.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2008/12/23/Pioneer-Kuro-KRP-500A-50in-Plasma-TV/p1

The B650 is a good plasma, with some significant weaknesses, but not even close to the 9G Kuros, especially in the areas of contrast ratio and black level.
And i'm sure the other review sites and magazines won't see it much else.
It is always the same procedure, edge-lit Luxia owners claim to have the kuro killer, now B860 should be the kuro killer, last year A950, seems somehow an inner need of many Samsung owners, often based on totally meaningless comparisons under neon light illumination conditions in the big AV markets and after the first reviews it turns out once again as wishful thinking.
I can well understand if someone prefers another brand but in the majority of the objective criterias and facts, the kuros remain unchallenged and the 2009 Samsung plasmas will not change this.
It is only a decrease of the distance but certainly no push from the throne, maybe in sub-disciplines but by far not in the overal performance.

tbird already beat you to that. You gotta be a little more creative here. :cool:

By the way, a few years when CR was mentioned here for picking the kuro as the best, was it just as disreputable?

Was that the one when you tried to compare a three year old review of a Poineer to one of a brand new Samsung? :D Or when you couldn't understand how to read the measurements for black level and ran anound telling people that Samsungs had better blacks. :D I have to say following your posts of misinformation and fan-boy flag waving is pure comedy. :D

Yes, Kuro's still do have an edge in some areas (e.g., blacks), but let's also acknowledge that the new Samsung's do have an edge in other areas: color, SD processing, power consumption, & price - plus, the B800's don't look half-bad!.

Let's also admit that a lot of this "mine is better than yours" (crap) is not objective, but biased by the fact that we've made an investment - and, naturally, are compelled to defend it.

Or when you couldn't understand how to read the measurements for black level and ran anound telling people that Samsungs had better blacks. :D

Huh?

Yes, Kuro's still do have an edge in some areas (e.g., blacks), but let's also acknowledge that the new Samsung's do have an edge in other areas: color, SD processing, power consumption, & price - plus, the B800's don't look half-bad!.

Let's also admit that a lot of this "mine is better than yours" (crap) is not objective, but biased by the fact that we've made an investment - and, naturally, are compelled to defend it.

I think no one doubts, that other flat tv's also have their strengths and Kuros in some areas weaknesses, but in key areas of image quality, they are still unmatched, unrivaled.
By the way in SD processing Kuros are still better.
Color reproduction and power consumption, I would also initially unable to sign.
What we currently can consider, they are cheaper and have a higher maximum brightness, maybe less PWM noise and they have the better frame interpolation with AMP, Kuros smooth mode is a poor performer.
Everything else is first to examine in detail.

Comments in the starting post, like "offered better motion resolution" are ridicolous, based on the fact the comparison was made in a magnolia shop without any test patterns and without the tv's were set up correctly.
Motion resolution of kuro is excellent and nobody can tell me to see the difference of a few lines, if it even exists, with the naked eye and that even under conditions of a big AV store.
Same with sharpness level, normal kuro pre set is -15, ranges up to +15, great scope for sharpness fanatics, so no way to compare without doing a accurate set up.
In addition there are other options in the Kuro menu to increase the overall sharpness level.
Biggest german AV magazine tested in their latest issue a european KRP-600A (Pro-141FD Signature Elite) and a Samsung edge-lit B7090 (B7020) Luxia, sharpness level of the Kuro was found and tested to be superior.
Quite aside from that, it's absurd to base a serious conclusion on a magnolia store comparison without any accurate set up done.


Here are some excerpts from the PS50B650 review that I've linked:

"How good the PS50B650's pictures are depends very much - more than I'm entirely comfortable with, in fact - on what you feed it. In other words, it's another case of nice HD, shame about the standard def… "

"The PS50B650's standard definition pictures sadly don't impress as much as its HD ones. First and worst, standard definition pictures look just a touch soft."

My other concern is that colours aren't as consistent with standard definition as they are with HD. They're still vibrant, but some tones, particularly where skin is concerned, can look rather unnatural. Skin tones sometimes have a slightly plasticky appearance, too.



If someone takes the time to realy review the two sets, fully calibrated with measurements, we can discuss seriously, but in form, as it demonstrates HifiFun here, there only remains very much hot air, wishful thinking and a big lack of foundation.

Yes, Kuro's still do have an edge in some areas (e.g., blacks), but let's also acknowledge that the new Samsung's do have an edge in other areas: color, SD processing, power consumption, & price - plus, the B800's don't look half-bad!.

Let's also admit that a lot of this "mine is better than yours" (crap) is not objective, but biased by the fact that we've made an investment - and, naturally, are compelled to defend it.

Hi!

I agree the new Sammy's are really nice, especially the thin 8 series, very stunningly designed sets with some great features galore and on the whole from what I can gather, some very real improvements in certain areas.

Bruce Lee once said "There is no such thing as an effective segment of a totality" - I guess he meant that no matter how good a certain element or elements of something is, if in the end situation it still results in an overall compromised situation to that possible or envisaged then it's value or use is wasted in some way.

That is how these new Sammys come across, despite being possibly excellent in certain individual areas, when all aspects are combined, the final result is less than it was expected to be as a candidate for the new reference standard of plasma.

The B860 has had a calibrated black level measured (as I understand) by Chad at 0.0627cd/m2 (0.0183fL) and with respect that is behind most of last years Panny's and many LCD's let alone just being "edged" by the Kuro's! Like a previous poster, I doubt very much that it will come anywhere close to matching a Kuro on SD stuff let alone bettering it. The only thing I have come across which offers comparable (but not better) SD processing to the Kuro is the Philips Perfect Pixel HD engine but even that suffers issues due to it being employed on a LCD panel as opposed to a Plasma.


Bazzy!

Hi!
Bruce Lee once said "There is no such thing as an effective segment of a totality" - I guess he meant that no matter how good a certain element or elements of something is, if in the end situation it still results in an overall compromised situation to that possible or envisaged then it's value or use is wasted in some way.
Bazzy!
There's no perfect panel out there... and that includes the Kuros. (there are compromises on any existing set).

Personally, I do see value in (unbiased) comparisons made on technical merit (i.e., measured data - not opinions) - as such discussions help educate us all, and may help some make buying decisions.

But, this "mine is better than yours" back-and-forth is a waste of time... To me is simple: If you're happy with what you have, then more power to you (I see no need for the continued bashing on Samsung).

If someone takes the time to realy review the two sets, fully calibrated with measurements, we can discuss seriously, but in form, as it demonstrates HifiFun here, there only remains very much hot air, wishful thinking and a big lack of foundation.
Yoiu nailed it! (let's discuss facts, not biased opinions & wishful thinking).

Hi,

There's no perfect panel out there... and that includes the Kuros. (there are compromises on any existing set).

Totally agree with you there - it's just that I was referring from a viewpoint that the Kuro being generally accepted as the most accomplished overall performer due it being designed as a no compromise design at the time, it achieves the reference standard to date and just because other sets may do a few individual things well or even better, it does not as some may believe, produce an superior overall result. A Kuro may indeed be very far from perfect, but it is way closer overall to that goal at present than most others.

Personally, I do see value in (unbiased) comparisons made on technical merit (i.e., measured data - not opinions) - as such discussions help educate us all, and may help some make buying decisions.

That is why I quoted actual figures for the black level of the new Sammy and referred to the Philips Perfect Pixel HD Engine on the SD side of things for comparison - many a professional reviewer has stated that this is the only system that comes close to matching a Kuro on SD and so was an unbiased statement.

But, this "mine is better than yours" back-and-forth is a waste of time... To me is simple: If you're happy with what you have, then more power to you (I see no need for the continued bashing on Samsung).

I hope I did not give that impression - I attempted to specifically address the two issues mentioned - black levels and SD performance and certainly gave the new Sammy considerable praise which I believe it may be due.


Bazzy!

I think this will be the main problem of the new samsung plasmas, 0.0627cd/m2 (0.0183fL) will be limitating the possible contrast ratio very noticeable.
I wouldn't expect much more than current CCFL LCD have to offer.
That will not be for everyone to be decisive, especially the relevance depends on the level of ambient light used, but people who are looking for extreme contrast ratio, the maximum natural 3D image depth and realy deep inky blacks will hardly find it with the new Samsung plasmas.
9G Kuros are around 0.001fL, often even lower because the idle luminance been difficult to measure, most light meter are limited to 0.001fL. (ultimateAVmag used a Minolta LS-100 light meter, which is limited to 0.001fL, so you can assume it is still lower)
This will result in a huge difference in terms of contrast ratio, even the 8G Kuros (0.004fL) will be pretty sure superior in terms of black level and contrast ratio.
Contrast Ratio and black level are not the sole factors, but very very crucial ones, especially for enthusiasts of which I just expect here in the forum.
For the casual user this must not necessarily be valid, because other factors (a good working frame interpolation, higher full screen brightness, less PWM noise, slim design, price/performance ratio) may be more relevant to their purchase.
That does not mean that the new Samsung plasmas are not even very solide plasmas, it is also holding on to the priorities.
I also think that Samsung is on a different strategy, Kuros are contrast monsters, build for the enthusiast, compared to cars like a lamborghini or ferrari.
Samsung goal is primarily to build tv's for a wide range of customers, they must look good, have a good picture quality, but first and foremost they have to sale good, therfore they are build to meet the taste of many.
Full screen brightness seems more important for Samsung, so that the new plasmas look good in the very bright light conditions of the big stores, because ultimately they want to sell them and most costumers don't care and don't even know about measurements we discuss here.
For many buyers it is sufficient, if samsung claims the new plasmas have 3000000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, or megacontrast.
Pioneer went the opposite way, their credo was extrem contrast, extem deep black level, also to the loss of some full screen brightness (not to be confused with peak white brightness) uncompromisingly designed for the enthusiast.
Economically probably the worst (worse? don't know) concept, but in my opinion the only true concept for the real enthusiasts.

I hope I did not give that impression - I attempted to specifically address the two issues mentioned - black levels and SD performance and certainly gave the new Sammy considerable praise which I believe it may be due.
Bazzy!
Thanks for the classy reply... I did choose strong words (e.g., "bashing"), not necessarily referring to you, but to the dominant tone of this thread - which I hope will take a turn to a more "objective" discussion.

Not to jump on you but I believe he has a valid point as the title of the thread reflects the model number that he was talking about. To come in and make reference to another Samsung isn't exactly fair. You make reference to it having better detail but you're also talking about a tv 3 inches smaller. Not a huge distinction but a disctinction none the less.

You realize how this makes no sense, as he compared a 60 to a 58.

In the end, who cares? My post was not meant to be taken as fact, but observation, and to prove that none it matters, as people are to choose what is best for them, as there is no such thing as "a one size fits all" approach.

I'm not going to claim the 850/60 Samsungs beat the 9G or 8G Kuros, but I feel they are much closer in overall picture than any Panasonic plasma.

IMO, I have to agree.

I think your comparison vs. HiFiFun's comparison differ in the fact that the model you saw was likely the 550 whereas the TV he saw was the 860. I saw an 860 side by side with a 550 and the 860 has much deeper black levels due to the 860s having a deeper tint on the screens.

Therefore my guess is that in HiFiFun's in store comparison is that there was enough ambient light to make the black levels of both TVs to be on par in Magnolia setting he saw them in. However, I'd bet that if the store dimmed the lights that the Pioneer's would excel in the black levels by a bit. Cleveland Plasma had a reviewer compare the B550 and a B860 and said the black levels were about the same so I'm guessing that tinting only helps with ambient light in the room.

I have to stop by there tomorrow to pick up something for my father, so I'll take a quick look.

It was in Magnolia, right next to the 151.

Do you know how those measurements were taken, or the device for that matter?

I have to stop by there tomorrow to pick up something for my father, so I'll take a quick look.

It was in Magnolia, right next to the 151.

Do you know how those measurements were taken, or the device for that matter?

I'm not sure. ClevelandPlasma stated he has someone reviewing/calibrating one of them. My guess is he wasn't taking measurements but just judging by eyeing them. I just briefly browsed the thread though so take my word as fact. The 860 definetly had the deeper blacks over the B550 in the HH Greg that I saw. No adustments come do anything for the 550 as the 860s magic was the tinted screen. The 550 was brighter but the 860s had the deeper colors/blacks. Reminded me of the Kuro's tinting.

The 6 series Samsung plasmas use the same dark tinting as well.

I'm not sure. ClevelandPlasma stated he has someone reviewing/calibrating one of them. My guess is he wasn't taking measurements but just judging by eyeing them. I just briefly browsed the thread though so take my word as fact. The 860 definetly had the deeper blacks over the B550 in the HH Greg that I saw. No adustments come do anything for the 550 as the 860s magic was the tinted screen. The 550 was brighter but the 860s had the deeper colors/blacks. Reminded me of the Kuro's tinting.

Ah I see.

The model at Magnolia is the B590 btw.

Samsung's motion interpolation is among the best, if not the best. Samsung is pushing plasma technology up to 96Hz refresh rate too. Recommended along with 24p as there is less judder and gaps in motion between frames. A true benefit when used in moderation.



I wonder when samsung does this if it will introduce the same soap opera effect that samsung processing does in lcd. It was annoying and I turned it off with my ln52a630 but then I could not deal with the motion blur so I went for a kuro 111fd. It was the best decision I have made in a long time. the kuro is so much better in every way.

The 6 series Samsung plasmas use the same dark tinting as well.
the 6-series has "Ultra FilterBright", whereas the 8-series has "Ultra FilterBright Plus" (to enhance contrast, and minimize glare)... I suppose this represents an overall improvement for Samsung (plasma), but not yet an edge over the Kuros.