I think that's an exaggeration. After all, with the right equipment you could upscale LDs almost as easily — through the computer, too.

I bought into LD then, in the belief that I could get very good deals on the material I wanted, which would probably not come out on DVD for many years, if ever. Experience has borne out those expectations.

Although my PC video card has an NTSC input, which is hooked up to one of my LD machines, I find I rarely use it. More often I use a little outboard conversion box to watch LDs on the monitor with the PC turned off, which makes for less noise.

Lasedisc was bearable only on a small screen
DVD was sensational on a computer screen by comparison

You could not see the potential of DVD on a NTSC tv and this is why initially
reviewers like those at Stereophile Guide to HT were just lukewarm about DVD

On a 8' screen with a G70 laserdisc could not hold a candle to DVD
I sold all my laserdiscs 14 years ago
Everything I care is on DVD

Lasedisc was bearable only on a small screen
DVD was sensational on a computer screen by comparison

I think a lot of people would disagree with you there.

Certainly I've found the differences less than striking, on an apples-to-apples comparison basis. Of course, most of the material I like best is 4:3 aspect ratio, & what DVDs are available are often overcompressed, mastered from NTSC sources, or generally of poor quality.

Your viewing equipment & source material, of course, will make a difference.

Such a technical discussion about a format that really had nothing to do with tech specs to the people who invested in it. I, they, we all loved those big shiny discs because we loved movies and people who try and blow off that short period when they were the best things going do it because they have never felt the excitement of pouring through bins at Camelot Music or Tower Records looking for a favorite, plunking down $125.00 so you could own the Criterion edition of Robinson Crusoe on Mars, carrying it home, opening it up, pouring over that big gatefold and then sitting back and watching it. It was, and still is, a unique experience in the annals of home theater and I'm glad I was part of it. (Still am, by the way, having just watched The Last Picture Show just the other night.)

Such a technical discussion about a format that really had nothing to do with tech specs to the people who invested in it. I, they, we all loved those big shiny discs because we loved movies and people who try and blow off that short period when they were the best things going do it because they have never felt the excitement of pouring through bins at Camelot Music or Tower Records looking for a favorite, plunking down $125.00 so you could own the Criterion edition of Robinson Crusoe on Mars, carrying it home, opening it up, pouring over that big gatefold and then sitting back and watching it. It was, and still is, a unique experience in the annals of home theater and I'm glad I was part of it. (Still am, by the way, having just watched The Last Picture Show just the other night.)


around for a short period ??????

LaserDiscs were around for almost 20 years offering the best quality
of any medium. it took DVD over 2 years to match the quality of LaserDiscs


Michael

Yea, it just seemed short to me since I was only collecting from 1985 or so. Plus, by 1998, laserdisc players were in only approximately 2% of US households (roughly two million) so it really was a niche market in every sense of the term. But like I said, still love 'em and it's fun to try and tweak them with new technology and see how much better than can look.

I finally got around to doing a comparison between S-Video and Composite inputs to my iScan Duo VP from a Pioneer Elite DVL-91 player; the TV is a Pioneer Elite 111FD.

It was only preliminary, and not of long duration, but on the one disc I tried (New Stars on Blue Note, 1989) the two were close, with the S-video feed a bit cleaner. I should try more when I have opportunity.

I finally got around to doing a comparison between S-Video and Composite inputs to my iScan Duo VP from a Pioneer Elite DVL-91 player; the TV is a Pioneer Elite 111FD.

It was only preliminary, and not of long duration, but on the one disc I tried (New Stars on Blue Note, 1989) the two were close, with the S-video feed a bit cleaner. I should try more when I have opportunity.

Try what you think are your best and worst looking LD's. Try a disc with with some really dark scenes. That should show you which signal path cuts video noise best. I used to use The Adventures Of Buckaroo Banzai to compare players or connections because it had so many problems. I could tell when the plentiful video noise was being cut down...

This is a topic I sometimes think about. I imagine the best option would be to mod a late model LD player with a good mechanical foundation and a high quality laser/pickup. The mod would attach a driver right after the laser pickup circuitry. Then, you could connect an external full-field TBC, before the LD player's ancient technology has had a chance to muck things up.

I'd use something like a Snell & Wilcox decoder or a Leitch DPS-475, which both give you component SDI out the other end. Some video processors surely have a full-field (or infinite window?) TBC.

Is there anyone out there that's doing this? Surely, there must be a couple old service techs who still know their way around some later model Pioneer Elites. I have a Pioneer CLD-97 set aside for just such a project.

There's some Lasedisc discussion in the "DVD Players" forum. You might get more response there.

This is a topic I sometimes think about. I imagine the best option would be to mod a late model LD player with a good mechanical foundation and a high quality laser/pickup. The mod would attach a driver right after the laser pickup circuitry.

Except you couldn't do it that way. You would get an RF signal, which would be useless. You would have to pick it up after the demodulator, at the earliest. I know someone one here modified a 97 or something of that sort by picking off the composite serial digital at the TBC ADC, to send it to an external processor, but my attempt to contact him to get the details didn't succeed.

Except you couldn't do it that way. You would get an RF signal, which would be useless. You would have to pick it up after the demodulator, at the earliest.
Are you sure you're not thinking of the audio track? I believe LDs have baseband composite video. It's the audio that's FM-modulated. I'd probably just let the player handle audio decoding. Ideally, you might want to notch those bands out of the post-TBC composite video.

What I really want (which would require an implausible amount of free time and will therefore never happen) is to use a high-speed, high-precision ADC to sample the raw composite signal at the pickup. Then, I could do the TBC, filtering, composite video decoding, and post-processing in software. Hard disks have long been big & fast enough that the processing wouldn't even have to run in realtime. Capture first, then crunch on it for as long as it takes.

I've done extensive research on the LaserDisc system, so I can tell you for certain, & provide technical papers to document my statements if you prefer. Video is frequency-modulated onto a carrier in just the same way that it is on broadcast tape formats. Analog audio is frequency-modulated onto two additional carriers, & digital audio is eight-to-fourteen-modulated just as for Compact Disc. The four signals are summed together, with the audio FM & EFM signals at a level significantly lower than that of the video FM, & the result is clipped to generate a pulse-width modulated signal which is actually recorded on the disc.

It would be essentially impossible to record "baseband composite video" on disc for the same reasons that it can't be done on tape. The frequency range, from 30 Hz to 4.2 MHz, is simply too broad — seventeen octaves. On the other hand, impressing it on a carrier frequency of 8.1 MHz (black level) simplifies the situation enormously.

Try what you think are your best and worst looking LD's. Try a disc with with some really dark scenes. That should show you which signal path cuts video noise best. I used to use The Adventures Of Buckaroo Banzai to compare players or connections because it had so many problems. I could tell when the plentiful video noise was being cut down...

I might have to try pausing a scene and then switching. The input changes are not instant with my Duo VP and scenes can change during the transition when the signal is being re-acquired. But on the closing credits of what I was watching last night (Evelyn Glennie: In Rio/Fiesta), I didn't see any significant differences in the black background between S-Video and Composite.

I didn't see any significant differences in the black background between S-Video and Composite.

A dark scene would be better for judging noise than black. With black, half of the (additive) noise will be clipped.

Video is frequency-modulated onto a carrier in just the same way that it is on broadcast tape formats.That's slightly inaccurate. Of the hundreds of color VTR formats to come into existence over the years, only a couple actually used composite video. All of the rest used a different modulation scheme for chroma. The reason being that composite mandates the inclusion of a TBC, which were bulky and expensive for most of the video tape era. (While TBCs are cool, my favorite analog video tech is actually the acoustic comb filter!)

The four signals are summed together, with the audio FM & EFM signals at a level significantly lower than that of the video FM, & the result is clipped to generate a pulse-width modulated signal which is actually recorded on the disc.
I didn't know that. In particular, the PWM part bridges some conceptual gaps I had.

You might want to tell wikipedia, BTW. I didn't notice anything about PWM or the 8.1 MHz carrier frequency, but I might have missed it.

There's a reason I said "broadcast tape formats". Quad & 1" formats A/B/C were all direct composite, as well as D-2 digital, & that accounts for most broadcast plant before digitization. Admittedly, some broadcasters did use 3/4" U-Matic & later Betacam, but that was mostly for remotes & such as I believe.

There's a reason I said "broadcast tape formats".Okay, okay. I think we've established that you're probably an even bigger video geek than I.

D-2 digitalHey now, that's a bit of a stretch. We were talking about TBCs and chroma modulation schemes, remember? Once you go digital, the chroma modulation scheme has nothing to do with TBCs.


Anyway, let's get back to the important stuff, shall we? Is this an area you're actively investigating? Has anyone just tried calling shops experienced in servicing LD players to ask whether they're capable of such mods?

Also, are the PWM decoders analog or digital?

Do you know whether the SDH phase is always fixed, on LDs?

Luna City or Bust!BTW, on first glance I read this as Luma City! You can probably imagine my disappointment when I reread it.

Okay, okay. I think we've established that you're probably an even bigger video geek than I.
As evidenced by the fact that I have an edit pair of BVH-2000 C-format 1" broadcast machines in my living room, & am trying to get rid of a pair of BVU-800s. And unless you have more than 500 anime LaserDiscs, I might be able to claim that I'm more of an anime geek! (But won't, because I'm not that big of an ass.)



Anyway, let's get back to the important stuff, shall we? Is this an area you're actively investigating? Has anyone just tried calling shops experienced in servicing LD players to ask whether they're capable of such mods?

Also, are the PWM decoders analog or digital?

Do you know whether the SDH phase is always fixed, on LDs?If you mean SCH phase, ie, between horizontal sync & subcarrier, it's locked (not fixed, as there's a 180 degree per line shift, due to the odd-half-multiple relation between the line & subcarrier frequencies), by the simple fact that composite video is recorded. The 4-field NTSC sequence is disturbed during still-frame operation, but the chroma remains coherent on a line-by-line basis. On older players, the subcarrier frequency may vary somewhat over the whole frame, as the tangent servo may not be able to correct for 100% of the disc eccentricity, but holds the variation along a single line to less than 10 nanoseconds.

The decoding for the RF signal varies by player. I understand there are some models which do digitize the whole RF waveform, perform TBC on that, then de-convolve the various subcarriers & recover their respective signals. A more common approach is to do filtering in the analog domain, which turns the overall PWM signal (with a dash of PPM as well) into three FM signals & one EFM, & then demodulate in the analog domain, feed the EFM to a standard CD decoder chip, & digitize the demodulated composite video. There's no single standard approach.

At the moment I haven't really been pursuing player modifications, other than possibly adding a digital audio output to my LD-V8000 (already has AC-3 mode), which unfortunately requires replacing an 80-pin surface-mount chip, the CD decoder I mentioned as it happens.

If you mean SCH phase, ie, between horizontal sync & subcarrier, it's locked (not fixed, as there's a 180 degree per line shift, due to the odd-half-multiple relation between the line & subcarrier frequencies), by the simple fact that composite video is recorded.Yes, I meant SCH phase. It's not a given, with composite video. I know at least that if you put a SCH scope on the composite output of some consumer-grade equipment, you'll see that they don't derive the line clock from the subcarrier clock. Consequently, the phase drifts. The reason it matters is that it simplifies the process & quality of composite video decoding if you can assume they're locked.

adding a digital audio output to my LD-V8000 (already has AC-3 mode), which unfortunately requires replacing an 80-pin surface-mount chip, the CD decoder I mentioned as it happens.I have a LD-V8000 and it looked like garbage (super noisy). Maybe I just got one in poor shape?

Maybe if we could find someone still working on these relics, it could also solve your SMC soldering problem.

Based on what you say, I think the best way to decode is by adding a digital PWM/PPM decoder. Some kind of high-frequency counter that just produces a stream of counts: on vs off. Maybe throw in transition time, as well, depending on how sharp vs. noisy the pulse transitions are. Then, slap a USB3 interface on it and I'm good. I can do everything else off-line, in software.

That's my ideal world, anyhow. Like if I were archiving LDs for the Library of Congress, or something like that.

Yes, I meant SCH phase. It's not a given, with composite video. I know at least that if you put a SCH scope on the composite output of some consumer-grade equipment, you'll see that they don't derive the line clock from the subcarrier clock. Consequently, the phase drifts. The reason it matters is that it simplifies the process & quality of composite video decoding if you can assume they're locked.
Wow. I can honestly admit I've never encountered that — well, with VHS it's inevitable, because the subcarrier frequency is held constant via the heterodyne process while the line frequency slops all over the place due to the total lack of timebase instability. But anything else shouldn't do that. A DVD player, for example, uses a master clock of 13.5 MHz, which is a multiple of 4.5 MHz, so the subcarrier frequency can be counted down from there, if the design's at all competent.

But LD mastering was normally (always, so far as I am aware) done with rock-stable video, normally from a broadcast-type tape deck with playback through a corresponding timebase corrector, all locked to master sync coming from something like a Tektronix 1410 (mentioned in a DiscoVision technical paper — another thing I have in the living room). As a result, SCH phase is locked in when the pits are cut, & there's literally nothing further down the chain that could disturb that.

here a link to a video from a german LaserDisc (Bildplatte) Production
plant from the early 80s

http://www.sendspace.com/file/2ptfd5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Si4laljs80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTb51dyY_68&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miG3EFTcvr4&feature=related

and some Selectavision

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=pymAoh7KH64


enjoy


Michael

I do have others from Phillips and Pioneer US Carson Plant

Maybe if we could find someone still working on these relics, it could also solve your SMC soldering problem.


This former Pioneer service center still does repair work on Laserdisc players of any brand or model:

http://www.laserdiscservice.com/

There's actually a hi-fi shop in my area with a tech who works on LD players, does AC-3 mods, & so forth. I'm hoping to be able to handle the matter myself, but I just have to get more confidence in my skills, since I don't want to mess up the machine.

Okay, okay. I think we've established that you're probably an even bigger video geek than I.

Hey now, that's a bit of a stretch. We were talking about TBCs and chroma modulation schemes, remember? Once you go digital, the chroma modulation scheme has nothing to do with TBCs.


Anyway, let's get back to the important stuff, shall we? Is this an area you're actively investigating? Has anyone just tried calling shops experienced in servicing LD players to ask whether they're capable of such mods?

Also, are the PWM decoders analog or digital?

Do you know whether the SDH phase is always fixed, on LDs?

Some clarifications here:

All commercial, industrial, and consumer VTRs used FM modulation of the video signal. The reason was to compress the frequency span into less octaves.

The chroma is AM Phase modulated in the camera. When it got to the VTR several techniques were used.

1) Direct Recording. Here the entire composite signal was sent to the FM modulator. In order for this to work, you need a sync tip frequency of at least 5mhz. So this was limited to 2inch quad machines and the higher end industrial machines that had head to tape speeds of 1000ips.

2)Various SECAM Systems. These involved demodulating the chroma to RY/BY and putting each on it's own FM carrier. That meant three FM carriers in a limited spectrum dictated by the head to tape speed, often less than 700ips. This system was only used on early industrial machines due to the somewhat severe morie problems. It was quickly replaced by the Color Under system.

3)Color Under. Here the chroma is separated and frequency converted to around 700khz. The first industrial machines used 767khz, 3/4in and Betamax used 688khz, and VHS used 629khz. The down converted chroma allowed it to occupy unused spectrum below the luminance FM carrier. Additional tricks inverting the chroma phase were needed on VHS and Betamax due to the azimuth recording.

4)Component Recording. This was done on Betacam and M formats. Here the chroma is demodulated to RY/BY (Betacam) or I/Q(M format), analog time compressed with CCD delay lines, and put on tape with a seperate track. The luminance had it's own track. Expensive system thus only used on broadcast machines.

5)Full Bandwidth Digital. Two primary approaches, composite and component. Highly complex due to the error correction systems needed.

6)Compressed Digital. Using digital compression such as JPEG and MPEG to reduce bandwidth thus relaxing the stringent requirements of full bandwidth digital recording.

All these analog techniques require some form of time base correction at least for the chroma path. The easiest is the hetrodyne system but that results in unlocked chroma. Another system was the demod/remod. The chroma was demodulated using a subcarrier derived from the off tape H sync and then remodulated with a stable 3.58mhz carrier - still unlocked though. In broadcast applications, the entire direct record signal was time base corrected, first with switched analog delay lines, later with digital memory. The digital systems were very easy to add a TBC as the signal was already digitized and by that time, 1990s, high speed memory was getting cheap.

Color under machines used two techniques with TBCs. The best was to feed a jittered 3.58 from the TBC back to the VTR to re-lock the chroma to the luminance. Of course the signal is now totally uncorrected but once again coherent. The other method was to demod the chroma in the TBC and re-mod it with again the jittery 3.58. This system did not require a 3.58 feedback to the VTR but resulted in reduced chroma bandwidth. Of course a vertical sync signal was always fed back to the VTR to keep the video centered in the TBC memory. This also meant you needed a VTR with a capstan servo. Cheap machines did not have capstan servos. Full frame TBCs eliminated this requirement.

SC/H phasing was critical in editing. One would hope the SC/H phase on a laser disk was correct, it really doesn't matter much if it's not. The editing problem, was the 140ns H shift at an edit that was not color framed. In a match cut it was quite visible. In a scene cut you would never see it. Still good NTSC engineering practice demanded consistent SC/H and most Laser disks are.

I was the person that did the composite digital mod to a CLD95. The 8 bit video, 14mhz clock and H/V sync are tapped after the TBC memory. They go through an FPGA to put the EAV/SAV codes into the stream per SMPTE 125. I also had to widen the H sync in the digital domain. Next the signal is sent to a digital decoder in RP125 parallel form. The biggest hurdle is formatting the raw digital signal to be SMPTE RP125 compliant. This requires and FPGA these days. A also had to modify th eplayer to use an external sync source. The internal generator was not stable enough to feed a broadcast grade decoder.

As for just taking the FM RF from the laser diode and sending that into a PC to demodulate it and further process? Sure it could be done. You will still need to fabricate the interface hardware and do extensive modifications to the LD player. A typical I5 desktop has enough horse power. But the software would take an individual years to perfect. And the results are probably not going to be worth the effort.

I was the person that did the composite digital mod to a CLD95. The 8 bit video, 14mhz clock and H/V sync are tapped after the TBC memory. They go through an FPGA to put the EAV/SAV codes into the stream per SMPTE 125. I also had to widen the H sync in the digital domain. Next the signal is sent to a digital decoder in RP125 parallel form. The biggest hurdle is formatting the raw digital signal to be SMPTE RP125 compliant. This requires and FPGA these days. A also had to modify th eplayer to use an external sync source. The internal generator was not stable enough to feed a broadcast grade decoder.

Interesting If I wanted to use it, I've got an LD-V8000, which already has an external sync input, & of course the Tek 1410 to slave it to. Actually my hope is to find a way to interface the RS-232 port on the LD player to the serial connector on my Sony BVE-800 editing console, so as to integrate it into my 1" editing suite as the B-roll machine. The trouble is, I don't have (or know where to find) a guide to the edit controller interface — it doesn't seem to be in the manual. I think I have enough documentation on the LD player side of things.

I'm not sure that would be the best machine to use anyway. Maybe the Sony HIL-C2EX?

Wow. I can honestly admit I've never encountered that
...
A DVD player, for example, uses a master clock of 13.5 MHz, which is a multiple of 4.5 MHz, so the subcarrier frequency can be counted down from there, if the design's at all competent.
In fact, I think it was an inexpensive DVD player where I actually observed it. I'm pretty sure I read about in Watkinson, since that's where most of my composite video knowledge originated.

As a result, SCH phase is locked in when the pits are cutThanks, that's the answer I was looking for.

Thanks for taking the time to post that. Very educational.

As for just taking the FM RF from the laser diode and sending that into a PC to demodulate it and further process? Sure it could be done. You will still need to fabricate the interface hardware and do extensive modifications to the LD player. A typical I5 desktop has enough horse power. But the software would take an individual years to perfect. And the results are probably not going to be worth the effort.I know. This is the sort of thing I think I might try to do for some massive archiving project. But I'm just a small-time collector & video enthusiast.

I don't agree that the software end of things would be as difficult as you suggest. I'm not trying to re-invent the techniques that players use. My task would be eased by the fact that I'm not subject to the same constraints (low-latency, analog or primitive digital circuitry) and we have much more advanced techniques at our disposal. You talk about an i5 having enough power, but I'm talking about doing this non-realtime, where I can spend as long as I want on the process. Matlab is an ideal tool for algorithm development of this sort.

The 8 bit video, 14mhz clock and H/V sync are tapped after the TBC memory.

Do you believe 8-bit is sufficient precision? My understanding is that it still leaves room for significant phase error, hence the adoption of 10-bit.

Might it be simpler & superior to tap the signal, pre-TBC? What places in the signal path would be good candidates for this?

Do you believe 8-bit is sufficient precision? My understanding is that it still leaves room for significant phase error, hence the adoption of 10-bit.

Might it be simpler & superior to tap the signal, pre-TBC? What places in the signal path would be good candidates for this?

I know a good deal of Laserdisk was mastered at 8bit. 10 bits was possible. The reason for 10bits over 8bits was levels of gray. 8bits can cause banding. If you tap the signal prior to the TBC, it's analog. You could take that and feed it into a full frame TBC and get your digital output from that. I did actually try doing that with a Tektronix 210 frame sync. problem is the Tek frame sync was designed for bringing outside sources into a broadcast plant. It expects an fully corrected input signal. It has no TBC function. If you can find and old Microtime 2020 or an ADDA VW2, that could work.

Thanks for taking the time to post that. Very educational.

I know. This is the sort of thing I think I might try to do for some massive archiving project. But I'm just a small-time collector & video enthusiast.

I don't agree that the software end of things would be as difficult as you suggest. I'm not trying to re-invent the techniques that players use. My task would be eased by the fact that I'm not subject to the same constraints (low-latency, analog or primitive digital circuitry) and we have much more advanced techniques at our disposal. You talk about an i5 having enough power, but I'm talking about doing this non-realtime, where I can spend as long as I want on the process. Matlab is an ideal tool for algorithm development of this sort.

Matlab is great but it's just not that simple. If you go the RF route, you must equalize the signal then apply amplitude limiting even before you can digitize it. That's all analog processing. What will you use as a clock source to do the initial conversion. The FM carrier deviates from 6mhz to 9mhz. How will you frame the data? Demodulating the FM is simple enough, a software low pass filter will do it. But even getting to that point will require some analog hardware.

You mention non-realtime processing. You still have the problem of the laserdisk player being a realtime playback device. So you still have to capture that data realtime and store it on disk.

Do you believe 8-bit is sufficient precision? My understanding is that it still leaves room for significant phase error, hence the adoption of 10-bit.There were a few LD players with 9-bit TBCs. I think the LD-S1 had one. I'm not sure about 10 bits, though.

I was the person that did the composite digital mod to a CLD95. The 8 bit video, 14mhz clock and H/V sync are tapped after the TBC memory. They go through an FPGA to put the EAV/SAV codes into the stream per SMPTE 125. I also had to widen the H sync in the digital domain. Next the signal is sent to a digital decoder in RP125 parallel form. The biggest hurdle is formatting the raw digital signal to be SMPTE RP125 compliant. This requires and FPGA these days. A also had to modify th eplayer to use an external sync source. The internal generator was not stable enough to feed a broadcast grade decoder.Would you be willing to share the details of what you did with the FPGA? I have a video processing problem I am pursuing, which is very different, but a little insight into what others have done never hurts.

There is a local add for a DVDO VP30 HD w/ABT102 upgrade. Is this a good scaler for LD playback? any info on the comb filter?

I am using a CLD-97 hooked upto a entech cvcsi then into yamaha a3000 with hqv vida. my monitor is a pioneer 141 monitor. I am not happy with the deinterlacing on my yamaha reciever. DO you think this VP30 with abt 102 can improve anything?

and what is a fair offer for this scaler? no warr, no box, seller claims fully functional, with remote control.

thanks

There is a local add for a DVDO VP30 HD w/ABT102 upgrade. Is this a good scaler for LD playback? any info on the comb filter?
Very nice deinterlacing. Uses the older DVDO scaling engine which is a little bit softer than the one in the Edge, but is more suited for worse material. The comb filter unfortunately isn't great.

DO you think this VP30 with abt 102 can improve anything?
definitely. The ABT102 introduced *GREAT* SD deinterlacing which a bunch of manually selectable modes.

and what is a fair offer for this scaler?
VP30 units can be easily found ($200) and unless you need RGBHV in/out you could also get a VP20 ($150), but the ABT102 upgrade has become incredibly hard to find. It's hard to put a price on it, since you can get 2nd hand Edge units for around $350 as well.

Yhank you for your reply. Woukd you prefer vp30 with abt102 or edge for lds?

I do think the VPS3800Pro is still the best VP around for LD, thanks to its configurable comb filter and Fli2300 + VXP combinaison.
But they still cost a lot.

I do think the VPS3800Pro is still the best VP around for LD, thanks to its configurable comb filter and Fli2300 + VXP combinaison.
But they still cost a lot.


Yes, the Crystalio II is king for SD PAL & NTSC!

Michael

I have an edge with laserdisc, I found it did basically NOTHING to help it out.. the comb filter in my KDS-R70xbr2 did a much better job.

Matlab is great but it's just not that simple. If you go the RF route, you must equalize the signal then apply amplitude limiting even before you can digitize it. That's all analog processing.
I was talking about using a digital PWM/PPM decoder.

This is probably moot, however. If I had time to spend on LD capture, I'd probably use a simpler hardware setup and focus my software efforts on higher-level video restoration & enhancement algorithms.

It would be nice if someone could work out a player hack that really delivered the goods, though. I'd imagine there's got to be a big enough market for that to make it worthwhile for a couple of enterprising individuals. Especially if you can tap the Asian market.

This is some interesting stuff. I was checking out eBay and noticed some ld players play dvds and cd also and have digital coax and optical out, are some of the laserdisc converted to digital or are those outputs cor the dvds?

I'm a bit late to the party here but recently dug my LX-900 and 60 or so discs out of mothballs to try connecting it to my 61" Samsung DLP set. Just wanted to comment on the coax connection seen on some LD players. In most cases, including my Panasonic, it is a combined video/audio output designed to supply a feed to old TV's that lacked separate composite inputs for video and L/R audio. On a handful of late generation LD players the coax connector is actually an RF output that can connect to a dedicated demodulator and provide the AC-3 output that allowed early Dolby Digital soundtracks to be properly decoded. I always used the analog composite (rather than optical) outputs to a first generation Dolby Pro Logic HITB (Atlantic Technology AT-150) and the audio was surprisingly good. if the image is not good enough for my tastes on the 61" Samsung I might keep the LX-900 to use as a CDE audio transport and go optical out to a good external DAC although I'll be more inclined to just sell it and get a dedicated CD audio high end player.

DVDO VP30 with ABT102 vs. DVDO Edge for laserdisc playback?

DVDO VP30 with ABT102 vs. DVDO Edge for laserdisc playback?

Both should perform equally, maybe the VP30 with ABT102 might be slightly better.
But LD still depends on comb filter.
So either you get a LD with a decent comb filter or you need to get a VP integration a good one.
Ultimately finding an old Faroudja that will do comb filter and desinterlacing could do the trick and let the TV/projector do the upscaling.

Or get lucky and find a VPS300 at a good price.

Yes, the Crystalio II is king for SD PAL & NTSC!

Doubtful for NTSC, as PMS never updated the VXP FW to handle the infamous Gennum 3:2 pulldown judder bug (as Lumagen, Anthem, Marantz and every other reputable OEM employing this chipset had done).

Maybe this was not an issue in PAL land, which would explain why the CII seems to have sold better in Europe. Unfortunately, If you're in the US with a 72Hz display (ie. CRT), the CII was (is) a paperweight with **NO** manufacturer support, despite PMS hawking their VPs at 100% retail 6 years after introduction with no communication with customers or acknowledgement of any issues whats-so-ever. Complete and utter *denial*, long-distance phone call (to China) hangups, and rejected e-mails.

PMS censors their forums as they cannot take criticism, and last I checked, they are shut down/password protected. But no fear, their fancy Flash-laden C2 marketing page is cranking at full bandwidth and their "authorized dealers" are standing by waiting to take your CC#.

Yet another shi**y VP manufacture who releases a handful of FW updates and goes absolutely black. Obviously PMS took a page from the Tom Strade/DVDO/everyone-else-but-Lumagen training and customer service manual. HALL OF SHAME!!!

Total scam. Buyer beware.

Bitter? You freakin' betcha.

EDIT: And their RS-232 protocol is total a**.

I did buy the dvdo vp30 with abt102 card for $260. It is in mint condition with remote,manual and calibration dvd. I am planning to connect my Mld 7020 composite(dnr defeated) into entech cvsi-1 for its decent 2d comb filter then into vp30 to scale to 1080p to my pio elite monitor.

Any recommendations how i should set up my vp30? What deinterlacing mode?

Doubtful for NTSC, as PMS never updated the VXP FW to handle the infamous Gennum 3:2 pulldown judder bug (as Lumagen, Anthem, Marantz and every other reputable OEM employing this chipset had done).

Maybe this was not an issue in PAL land, which would explain why the CII seems to have sold better in Europe. Unfortunately, If you're in the US with a 72Hz display (ie. CRT), the CII was (is) a paperweight with **NO** manufacturer support, despite PMS hawking their VPs at 100% retail 6 years after introduction with no communication with customers or acknowledgement of any issues whats-so-ever. Complete and utter *denial*, long-distance phone call (to China) hangups, and rejected e-mails.

PMS censors their forums as they cannot take criticism, and last I checked, they are shut down/password protected. But no fear, their fancy Flash-laden C2 marketing page is cranking at full bandwidth and their "authorized dealers" are standing by waiting to take your CC#.

Yet another shi**y VP manufacture who releases a handful of FW updates and goes absolutely black. Obviously PMS took a page from the Tom Strade/DVDO/everyone-else-but-Lumagen training and customer service manual. HALL OF SHAME!!!

Total scam. Buyer beware.

Bitter? You freakin' betcha.

EDIT: And their RS-232 protocol is total a**.

Let's be a little more fair to Tom Strade and his team. They just got in over their heads with running a low volume business. Their product was too complex for non technical users. But nevertheless I thought it was good for its time.

And I predict Lumagen will soon fail as well. Sure great product with great support but the VP market is dying as more and more displays have built in processing almost as good - well good enough for most people.

Let's be a little more fair to Tom Strade and his team. They just got in over their heads with running a low volume business. Their product was too complex for non technical users. But nevertheless I thought it was good for its time.

And I predict Lumagen will soon fail as well. Sure great product with great support but the VP market is dying as more and more displays have built in processing almost as good - well good enough for most people.

WOW! That was 10 years ago. I had both versions of the Holo3D, all for the sake of deinterlacing and scaling.

The writing is on the wall for the standalone VP. I have the Edge and it serves as a HDMI switch and audio splitter.

Most of the heavy lifting is being done by my HTPC, eversince Nvidia opened up access to their video pixel shader hardware. It brought about a 100X increase in computing power. GPU assisted deinterlacing and scaling under the control of specialized software video renderers like MadVR pretty much relegated the Edge to video switch duties.

The CPU+GPU combo gives me 60fps motion compensated frame interpolation with near zero motion artifacts or the dreaded "clay feet" or "soap opera" look, something that was unreachable even 3-4 years ago.

My impression with the dvdo vp30 with abt102 on lds

My setup

Pioneer elite pro-141fd 60" signature edition latest gen 1080p monitor- all processing disabled, cheesy hd esentials bd calibrated

Yamaha rx-a3000 receiver with hqv vida vhd1900

Entech cvsi-1 composite to component with 2d comb filter

Mcintosh mld-7020 composite out with dnr defeated.(pioneer cld-97 clone)

I let entech split y/c to 480i out in component. Then vp30 to deinterlace and upscale to hdmi 1080p as well as aspect ratio control and match ld contrast with other sources. Then yamaha to apply minor edge enhancement and noise reduction.

I am very pleased with the results. I watched the first afew chapters of alien resurection which i picked because it is a dark movie with aspect ratio 2.35:1. And it was unwatchble before vp30(regarding pic quality)aspect ratio management is definitely better than tvs and receivers.

I read this unit doesnt deinterlace1080i material properly. I am planning connect my cable box, dvhs,ps3 directly to yamaha receiver.

This is my first vp. Now that i am familiar with vps. I am already looking to upgrade to iscan duo or lumagen if funds permit in the near future

uderman,

Where did you purchase your Entech cvsi-1? I would like to test one out.

I bought it about 3 years ago on ebay. I can't remember how much I paid but I dont think it was more than $150.

I am going to upgrade video cables and have my laserdisc tweaked by Kurtis in the very near future.

I'd like to know what Kurtis Bahr thinks about the Pioneer HLD-X0 ?

A friend of mine sold his X0 to someone in the States that had this

player adjusted at Kurtis.

afaik, Kurtis never saw a HLD-X0 before.

Michael