Mine is, anyway. How irritating is this - noticed that my blacks were being crushed badly with my new bluray player (JVC XVBP1). Checked the color space setting on the JVC and it was defaulting to YCbCr. Changed the Optoma over from auto (defaulting to RGB) to YCbCr and the entire screen goes hardcore pink/magenta. Adjusting color settings doesn't even change it.

It's not the HDMI cable, it's the projector. It does it no matter what source is hooked up to it.

Setting the bluray and projector to RGB setting gets rid of the pink tint, but it clips below black and whites.

This sucks, how could such a major issue get through production? I'm screwed as this is a refurb projector that I got from Canada (I'm a US citizen), so likely no warranty for me. I basically have a projector that will never be able to properly output blacks or whites.

From a Google search, this is a common problem with this model projector. How I missed this with the hours and hours of research I did before purchasing, I will never know.

hmm, makes me wonder about mine too...I have My Hd640 (same as HD65, just different model number because it was sold in canada) set to auto and use it on my Samsung BDP-1200 BluRay player, and I found that I had to go into the video > advanced menu and change the degamma from "film" to either "video" or "Graphics" I think are the two choices I went between, I think I later settled on graphics. That gave me the shadow detail back. But the film degamma setting sucks for black levels I have found. But it does that also on my Western Digital HDTV Media Player as well, so I chalked it up to just the degamma settings and not color space.

hmmm....

I have my PS3 set to output as YCbCr, and believe I have my HD65 set to Auto. Mine doest the same as you when I set the optoma to YCbCr. HOWEVER, that being said, if you are sending a signal as YCbCr, doesnt that mean the Optoma IS outputting as YCbCr? It take a YCbCr and output as RGB can it?Know what I mean?

I was under the impression that YCbCr is only for component use. Isn't HDMI converted to RGB at some point? I have the same magenta issue over HDMI if I set the source and HD65 to YCbCr..on component both source and projector to YCbCr is fine.

In my understanding, the HDMI resulting output has to be RGB, it just depends on whether you do it at the source(set your JVC to RGB) or at the projector(set your JVC to YCbCr and projector to RGB) Perhaps it's a setting on your player crushing blacks?

My HD65 is set to PC gamma BTW, as it's closer to 2.2

meant to say "I was under the impression that the YCbCr setting on the projector is only for component use"

Isn't HDMI RGB only?
HDMI can carry RGB or YCbCr. However, some display devices do not support YCbCr over HDMI, in which case the source device should automatically send RGB, or the user should configure the source device to send RGB.

HDMI can carry RGB or YCbCr. However, some display devices do not support YCbCr over HDMI, in which case the source device should automatically send RGB, or the user should configure the source device to send RGB.

I think it is DVI that is supposed to be RGB.
HDMI can be YCbCr. Since Blu-rays and DVDs are YCbCr this is one of the advantages HDMI has over DVI.

[QUOTE=***********3;16501638]

my blacks were being crushed badly with my new bluray player (JVC XVBP1).

the entire screen goes hardcore pink/magenta.

Setting the bluray and projector to RGB setting gets rid of the pink tint, but it clips below black and whites.
[QUOTE]

I am presuming that you have used a test disk to set the Brightness and Contrast controls in the PJ. If not, then this would be the place to start. Setting the Brightness control lower than the correct setting, crushes Black, but you probably already know this.

Blacks being crushed:

Other than what I mentioned above, there are two common causes for this. Make sure that both the sources (i.e. your Blu Ray player) and the PJ are set to send and receive video with the "Video" signal standard (Black as 16; White as 235). If one or the other is set to the PC signal standard (Black as 0; White as 256) (sometimes called "Enhanced") there will be severe crushing at Black and White or a severe reduction in contrast ratio depending on which device is incorrectly set.

The other common cause is the intentional design of the gamma tables in the PJ. There is nothing that can be done about this, if it is the case. If the PJ offers different gamma selections, choose the one that minimizes the problem. Also, the player may have gamma selections built into it. If so, try these selections to see if they help.

As far as the elimination of Blacker Than Black and Whiter Than White: It is not ideal. It makes it harder to accurately set Black (Brightness control) and White (Contrast control). However, the problems that it causes in actual video aside from this is typically too small to be noticeable, IMO. Don't lose any sleep over it. The elimination of BTB and WTW does not cause Black or White crushing.

The pink tint:

Off the top of my head, this is caused when the source sends YCbCr and the PJ interprets the signal as RGB and fails to apply color decoding (which is what the YCbCr setting does) to the signal. The source and PJ should negotiate how to send and receive the video signal over HDMI, when both are set to "Auto". However, it doesn't always work correctly. Usually setting both the source and PJ manually fixes the problem. So why isn't this working in your case? Some possibilities are: YCbCr can be sent as (4:2:2) or (4:4:4). The source and PJ must both be expecting the same thing or you get bizare colors. Or a flawed implementation of HDMI in the source or PJ is screwing up the negotiation between them. Perhaps, even thought the PJ's menu has manual settings, they are being over ridden by auto-negotiation. If you are not seeing a severe change in the image as you manually change the PJ between expecting RGB and YCbCr, then the PJ is not actually engaging the color decoding that the YCbCr setting should engage.

Additionally, you should know that when both the source and display are set to auto-negotiation, they always seem to choose YCbCr over RGB. I have not seen an exception to this out of the hundreds of displays I have calibrated. It is certainly possible that your PJ is an exception, though. Usually the way to test whether the source is sending RGB or YCbCr is to allow the auto-negotion to take place between the source and the PJ, then go into the PJs menu and manually switch between RGB, YCbCr (4:2:2), and YCbCr (4:4:4). Only one of them will create a normal video image, and that is the setting that corresponds to what the source is sending.

Hope this helps.

Also, as far as setting the Brightness without the aid of BTB signals: Most DLP PJs employ dither to create grey levels just above Black. You can use this visible performance charectoristic to tell when the Brightness control is set to display the darkest Black that it can. Send the PJ a Black pluge pattern from a test disk. Lower the Brightness control until dither just disappears from the Black background of the test pattern. This is the darkest Black that your PJ can make. Set it no lower, or your setting will crush Black. Setting the Brightness one step above the correct setting may, or may not substantially increase shadow detail at the expense of greyer blacks. You may, or may not find this a worthwhile compromise.

Glenn

[QUOTE=***********3;16501638]


The pink tint:

Off the top of my head, this is caused when the source sends YCbCr and the PJ interprets the signal as RGB and fails to apply color decoding (which is what the YCbCr setting does) to the signal. The source and PJ should negotiate how to send and receive the video signal over HDMI, when both are set to "Auto". However, it doesn't always work correctly. Usually setting both the source and PJ manually fixes the problem. So why isn't this working in your case? Some possibilities are: YCbCr can be sent as (2:2:2) or (4:4:4). The source and PJ must both be expecting the same thing or you get bizare colors. Or a flawed implementation of HDMI in the source or PJ is screwing up the negotiation between them. Perhaps, even thought the PJ's menu has manual settings, they are being over ridden by auto-negotiation. If you are not seeing a severe change in the image as you manually change the PJ between expecting RGB and YCbCr, then the PJ is not actually engaging the color decoding that the YCbCr setting should engage.

Additionally, you should know that when both the source and display are set to auto-negotiation, they always seem to choose YCbCr over RGB. I have not seen an exception to this out of the hundreds of displays I have calibrated. It is certainly possible that your PJ is an exception, though. Usually the way to test whether the source is sending RGB or YCbCr is to allow the auto-negotion to take place between the source and the PJ, then go into the PJs menu and manually switch between RGB, YCbCr (2:2:2), and YCbCr (4:4:4). Only one of them will create a normal video image, and that is the setting that corresponds to what the source is sending.


Glenn

The problem I have and that the OP has as well, I believe, is a little different. It doesn't matter what I set my source to... RGB or YCbCr, the image is fine on the projector as long as input is set as RGB or Auto. If I set the source as YCBCr AND the input on the HD65 as YCbCr I get a magenta cast. Do you know why this is so? The HD65 does not have the option of choosing between YCbCr(4:4:4) and YCbCr(2:2:2). Perhaps the projector can only accept one YCbCr format and it is different than what is being output by the source in both of our cases?

As far as the black crush, I don't seem to have a problem and is really a matter of setting up contrast and brightness properly and using the right degamma setting, IMO.

[QUOTE=glenned;16516163]

The problem I have and that the OP has as well, I believe, is a little different. It doesn't matter what I set my source to... RGB or YCbCr, the image is fine on the projector as long as input is set as RGB or Auto. If I set the source as YCBCr AND the input on the HD65 as YCbCr I get a magenta cast. Do you know why this is so? The HD65 does not have the option of choosing between YCbCr(4:4:4) and YCbCr(2:2:2). Perhaps the projector can only accept one YCbCr format and it is different than what is being output by the source in both of our cases?


A little background to make things easier to understand:

Digital video is captured as RGB, either in a video camera or in a film scanner (in the case of digitizing movie film). To save bandwidth it is color encoded into the YCbCr format. Digital displays (your PJ in this instance) must color decode it back into RGB before sending it to the imaging device (the DLP in the case of your PJ).

HDMI supports the transmission of signals as RGB, or YCbCr (4:2:2), or YCbCr (4:4:4). When the source and display are connected via HDMI, the source can optionally do the color decoding instead of the display. In that instance the source would color decode the YCbCr signal into RGB and send it to the display. Many sources, though not all, allow you to determine the format (RGB vs. YCbCr) in which the video will be sent to the display. Many displays, though not all, allow you to tell the display which format it will receive from the source. If you tell the display to expect RGB, it doesn't apply color decoding to the video signal it receives. If you tell it expect YCbCr, it applies color decoding. In addition, YCbCr comes in two levels of compression: (4:2:2) and (4:4:4). If there is any mismatch between the source and display, the video takes on bizarre coloration.

It is clear to me based on your post that there is a mismatch between the format (RGB vs YCbCr) that your source is sending, and the format that your PJ is expecting. Since you see normal video when the PJ is set to RGB, it is most likely that the source is sending RGB, despite the fact that you have set the source to send YCbCr. The most likely explanation, IMO, is that the source is auto-detecting (during the auto-negotion phase of the HDMI handshake) that your PJ can't handle the type of YCbCr your source can send and is sending RGB instead, despite the fact that you are telling it to send YCbCr. The problem could very well be just what you have suggested. The source can only send (4:2:2), and the display can only decode (4:4:4), or vise-a-versa.

Though, this situation is not ideal, I have compared the same video sent in all three formats from the same source and didn't see a difference. Though small differences can be shown in tests, my own admittedly cursory comparison shows the differences to be virtually undetectable in actual video. It may be that there are certain types of scenes that would show a difference in banding, but I didn't see any in the very limited amount of video that I saw. As long as your PJ handles RGB video properly, this shouldn't compel you to replace the PJ. If you were able to send YCbCr to the PJ successfully, it is likely that you would see no difference.

The biggest advantage to being able to independently set the source and the display is so that you can avoid any signal type that that either one handles in a flawed manner due to engineering mistakes on the part of the manufacturer. For example, when the JVC RS1 receives an RGB 480i/P signal over HDMI, it appears to re-encode it to YCbCr to process it. It then re-decodes it back to RGB to send to it's LCOS imaging chips. However, there are different encoding/decoding formulas for SD as opposed to HD. The RS1 appears to be using one formula to encode the video and the other to decode it. It only does this with this one signal type. Knowing this, I would not send 480i/P video to the RS1 in the RGB format over an HDMI link. I would only send 480i/P video as YCbCr over HDMI.

Glenn

Glenn, I thank you many times over for the information.

Now, back to enjoying my PJ again:D