hey guys, i spent about 3 hours in magnolia testing out games on their sound system. Im getting a new setup for my room, i locked in pretty much everything but teh subwoofer

first let me describe the setup. This will be used 90% gaming 10% HT (movies and junk) absolutely nothing for music or anything like that. Hell the tv its hooked up to isn't even hooked up to cable! its only used for gaming, i use a seperate 32" on the side of the room for tv watching

the speakers are all definitive tech, reciever is a pioneer elite. I will be going for a 5.1 setup, i figure the layout would have the last 2 a bit too far back for my staste for me to get anything outa them for gaming, since most stuffs 5.1 anyway

Reciever: pioneer elite sc 05
Center: CLR2002
R/L: bp7400
rears: Bp2x
sub... not sure, i ilked the sound of the Martin logan abyss

heres the deal. I have a good knowlege of tvs and video gear but as of last week my knowlege of recievers and speakers was zilch. I spent a lot of time looking into recievers and wound up picking the elite over a denon because of the price i could get it for and the fact that the denon i was looking at (the 3808) is almost 3 years old now, as well as having read of problems with it over HDMI with some sony tvs. I also spent a bit of time with speakers, but i still am pretty much in the dark on subs, the stuffs just damn confusing, i dont know what any of the specs or terminology mean or what i should be looking for!

the 2 R/L speakers have powered subs in them but i still want a dedicated sub. I tried the supercube II and the abyss, and the abyss sounded way better, even though by the specs you would think the supercube would have. It sounded kinda muddy, while the abyss didn't distort and made even regular gunfire sound better. The supercube has more wattage and a lower frequency response.. isn't that what you want? but the abyss sounded way better

the way the guy explained it was that the abyss had a single large sealed.. i dont know the term.. cone? while the cube has 2 smaller ones. and what im looking for for games he said was a large single sealed one. Does that sound right? hopefully someone can clarifty that for me

I would say screw it and just go for the abyss since i know i liked the sound but theyre quite expensive. Im already over my initial budget of 3k, and the lowest price i could find an abyss for is about 900. I did some searching on this forum and there aren't many posts about the ML, most seem to be about people saying they sound ok but are way overpriced for what they are. Some posts from a year or so ago have people getting them for like 700 bucks, which if they were that price id get one. A lot of people seem to recomend an SVS, HSU, or elemental design. They say that they sound just as good, most say better, and are cheaper

the problem is, i cant test them out and im scared i'll get one and it will have that muddy sound the supercube did

so heres the deal.. what should i look for in a sub with that setup? id be wiling to spend around 700 bucks for one or so. Hell can anyone edcuate me on what the different specs mean and what i should look for? is that SEALED single cone, or whatever its called what im really looking for, and do the hsu's/Svs's/ED's have them? I dont even really know what the low freq response means and what i should look for, should the first number be lower or higher? what about 2nd? abyss lists the first number higher than most of the other ones im looking at (even super cube) but i thought you wanted that low
23–120 Hz ±3dB
supercube was
14 Hz – 200 H

ungh so confused. if anyone knows a good faq explaining the basics of this id be glad to read it along with your personal opinions. i checked the buyers questions at the top but its more of a posting guide on what to ask, not what the stuff means. I really need to know what the frequency response means, if wattage is that imporant, the size of the sub, what a sealed cone means, ect. The thing i dont like about the SVS site is they dont seem to really give detailed specs like the other sites

so to sumarize the layout

Reciever: pioneer elite sc 05
Center: CLR2002
R/L: bp7400
rears: Bp2x
sub... not sure, abyss maybe, HELP

room is 18X13, heres a rough drawing of the layout
http://home.comcast.net/~kenshindono/room51.jpg
or it may be
http://home.comcast.net/~kenshindono/roomdraw251.jpg

i think the first though, thats how it is right now and the 2nd would have me very close to the tv

i dont care what size the sub is, larger the better i think, dont bigger boxes give better sound?
Application: GAMING GAMING GAMING, 90% gaming 10%movies 0%tv/music so heavy clear explosions are a must

help! if i cant really sort what all this stuff means and find a good alternitive i guess i'll just pay 900 bucks for the abyss even though its overpriced because i did like its sound. I just would love to know WHY i liked it sounds and if theres a more reasonable alternitive that will give me the same results. im very worried about just trying something else and getting that muddy sound i got with the supercube

Def tech grossly exaggerates it's frequency specs so don't put a lot of faith in those numbers. If you liked the Abyss, I'd suggest taking a good look at the SVS SB12-Plus. It's similar in size and specs and price, but with a little more power. Also because it's SVS, it got the best customer support in the business.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm

the thing is, i thought i remember reading that the sb12 was more for music than HT? hmm im not sure. i noticed epik has different sealed and ported models, im still just not clear on what i need, if the sealed aspect is what made the abyss sound better

you posted those numbers, but like i said i had no idea what they meant, i was looking for a general explination of what those frequency ratings actually did in that thread

the thing is, i thought i remember reading that the sb12 was more for music than HT? hmm im not sure. i noticed epik has different sealed and ported models, im still just not clear on what i need, if the sealed aspect is what made the abyss sound better

The SB12 is considered better for music than HT becuase it's deep bass power is not that great. The Abyss would be pretty much in the same boat. As to why the Abyss sounded better than the Def tech when you compared them, it's hard to say. It may be a better sounding sub or it could have been the conditions of the setup. In any case, looking at your room layout, I tend to think a decent sealed sub might work best. A ported sub would give you a stronger bottom end, but could wind up sounding boomy in your room.

Another similar sized and priced sub to take a look at is the Epik Vanquish.

you posted those numbers, but like i said i had no idea what they meant, i was looking for a general explination of what those frequency ratings actually did in that thread

damn, i had a whole post typed out about +/- 3db and roll-off and what all that meant and i must have closed the browser before hitting send :o

+/- 3db means the frequency response numbers given are flat give or take 3db and the lowest number in a figure like 23-200hz +/- 3db also means the sub is starting to roll-off "lose volume" at 23hz. it's down 3db already and will drop more as the frequency gets lower. in ported and passive radiator subs, the "roll-off" will be more drastic about 24db per octave i believe. sealed subs usually have a 12 db per octave roll-off which is more gradual unless the sub has a high pass filter blocking out the lows

there's no way the 8" driver in the supercube is doing anything at 14hz but they don't put any +/- x db after the response numbers so technically, if the driver is moving, it's "responding"

def tech will provide anechoic +/- 3db response numbers if you email or call them. that's the list i posted of numbers i've collected myself and from other members who contacted them

we also tried to steer you away from the smaller supercubes and into something internet direct which offers much more bang for the buck. i even posted some links to subs you might want to consider

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html

The SB12 is considered better for music than HT becuase it's deep bass power is not that great. The Abyss would be pretty much in the same boat. As to why the Abyss sounded better than the Def tech when you compared them, it's hard to say. It may be a better sounding sub or it could have been the conditions of the setup. In any case, looking at your room layout, I tend to think a decent sealed sub might work best. A ported sub would give you a stronger bottom end, but could wind up sounding boomy in your room.

Another similar sized and priced sub to take a look at is the Epik Vanquish.

ya i was just looking at the epics, they seem pretty decent and they give a choice of what type you want.

im thinking since i have built in subs on the main i want that cleaner sound from a sealed? i still haven't got a straight answer on the real difference between sealed and ported designs, some claim ported give more oomph for gaming, others say sealed gives better overall performance, and just as much deep bass *sigh*

what do you mean by boomy? kinda distored/muddy? thats the effect i got from the supercube if thats what you mean. the sealed abyss made gunfire sound crisper and explosions were clean and deep sounding. With the ported cube gunfire was a little hollow sounding and explosions sounded muddy

damn, i had a whole post typed out about +/- 3db and roll-off and what all that meant and i must have closed the browser before hitting send :o

+/- 3db means the frequency response numbers given are flat give or take 3db and the lowest number in a figure like 23-200hz +/- 3db also means the sub is starting to roll-off "lose volume" at 23hz. it's down 3db already and will drop more as the frequency gets lower. in ported and passive radiator subs, the "roll-off" will be more drastic about 24db per octave i believe. sealed subs usually have a 12 db per octave roll-off which is more gradual unless the sub has a high pass filter blocking out the lows

there's no way the 8" driver in the supercube is doing anything at 14hz but they don't put any +/- x db after the response numbers so technically, if the driver is moving, it's "responding"

def tech will provide anechoic +/- 3db response numbers if you email or call them. that's the list i posted of numbers i've collected myself and from other members who contacted them

we also tried to steer you away from the smaller supercubes and into something internet direct which offers much more bang for the buck. i even posted some links to subs you might want to consider

thank you, thats the kind of info i was looking for. so basically it sounds like you want a lower first number in the frequency response.. the thing thats confusing is the cube lists a 14 like you mention, but your right theres no +/- after it. hmm.

So to be clear what i want to look at is low frequency with a +/-3 dB anechoic rating tacked on at the end, the lower the better, right? I.e. something with a 14-200 +3db anehoic rating would be better than something with a 24-200 +3db anehoic rating, right? If thats the case, then what does the 2nd number effect/mean? i notice some only go to like 100 (the ED a3-300 has a 18-100 rating), others go all the way to like 500. kinda important because the Abyss is rated 23–120 Hz ±3dB; Anechoic through LFE effects input, and the epik im kinda looking at as a lead alternitive right now untill i get the ported/sealed thing sorted (since its definatly sealed) is a Frequency response: 20 - 500 Hz +/-3 dB anechoic that 2nd number is WAY higher so im very curious what it means and how that will effect performance

does this roll of your talking about just mean it just doesn't deliver the sound, or is the sound distorted: the 'muddy' kinda distorted sound i heard when listening to the supercube?

this parts kinda confusing too
" in ported and passive radiator subs, the "roll-off" will be more drastic about 24db per octave i believe. sealed subs usually have a 12 db per octave roll-off which is more gradual unless the sub has a high pass filter blocking out the lows"

hmm but most of the sealed subs i look at have a higher lower end number than the passive subs. Epik is a good example of this. they have 2 lines of the same quality, one passive one sealed:

sentinal, is passive
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedsentinel.html
and lists it as
Frequency response: 18 - 200 Hz +/-3 dB anechoic

vanquish is sealed
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/sealedvanquish.html
and lists
Frequency response: 20 - 500 Hz +/-3 dB anechoic

so wouldn't that actually make the passive one roll off lower? is it that passives roll off lower, but that when they do roll off its more severe than sealed ones? this would only make sense if roll off means the sound just gets distorted and not lost. Im kinda confused

i do appreciate the links you gave, they jived with most of the stuff sugested that i found searchign, im just trying to figure out which of those would work best with my gaming setup, im not sure which are sealed or ported, or if i even want sealed or ported quite yet. Hell i wasn't even sure what most of the specs meant. The only thing i confirmed is that HSU's are ported, they were the only ones that weren't closed when i called, and of course the epiks have different lines for the 2 types

oh ya, and how important is wattage? i never see anyone really talking about it, does it not matter?

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html

i didn't look at the rythmics too much because they use some kinda servo technology ive never heard of.. what the heck is that anyway.It says its a sealed sub. I dont see the freq response ratings either, they just keep ranting about their patented servo tech =P

tnx guys

*EDIT* one thing to add, i notice HSU doesn't list their freq range like normal, they just list
Bass Extension (max extension mode)
18 Hz
Bass Extension (max output mode)
25 Hz

what does that mean? is that the same as the lower numbers in the freq response stuff?

ya i was just looking at the epics, they seem pretty decent and they give a choice of what type you want.

im thinking since i have built in subs on the main i want that cleaner sound from a sealed? i still haven't got a straight answer on the real difference between sealed and ported designs, some claim ported give more oomph for gaming, others say sealed gives better overall performance, and just as much deep bass *sigh*

what do you mean by boomy? kinda distored/muddy? thats the effect i got from the supercube if thats what you mean. the sealed abyss made gunfire sound crisper and explosions were clean and deep sounding. With the ported cube gunfire was a little hollow sounding and explosions sounded muddy


Boomy bass is usually the result of an excess of bass in certain parts of the bass frequency range. It sounds unnnatural and sometimes tends to overwhelm the rest of what's playing. What you heard from the Supercube II might be boomy, but is is more likely distortion from an overworked 8" woofer which is trying to do too much. The Supercube is not ported, but instead has a couple of passive woofers which help to give more bass at certain frequncies. I know of no sub the size of a Supercube II that is capable of reproducing deep bass accurately at useable volume.

Whether ported or sealed is best for you is usually determined by your size preference and the acoustics of your room. Sealed subs are typically smaller than ported subs and often work better in smaller sealed rooms. Ported subs typically are larger and have greater output in the deeper frequencies. In smaller areas, they might sound boomy.

I want that cleaner sound from a sealed? I still haven't got a straight answer on the real difference between sealed and ported designs, some claim ported give more oomph for gaming, others say sealed gives better overall performance, and just as much deep bass.

Oomph, performance and a cleaner sound can be achieved from both. The main difference in design with everything else being equal is sealed design has a more gradual roll off that starts higher in the frequency range. Ported has a flatter response down to it's turning point then drops off much faster below that. Ported designs are also more efficient meaning they don't take as much power to achieve higher output capability and are generally more cost effective in output performance. For this reason they are generally more popular than sealed for HT where more output capability is needed especially in the lower frequencies around the tuning point. It take a more capable sealed sub or multiples of to achieve the same output levels in the lower frequency band. For the majority of music which doesn't extend as low in the frequency range sealed designs are often preferred. They are generally smaller and more suited to take advantage of room gain due to the shallower roll off.

what do you mean by boomy? kinda distored/muddy? thats the effect i got from the supercube if thats what you mean. the sealed abyss made gunfire sound crisper and explosions were clean and deep sounding. With the ported cube gunfire was a little hollow sounding and explosions sounded muddy

Boomy is usually an expression which describes an uneven frequency response or not properly calibrating the sub level with the level of the speakers. If you have a peak at a certain range then that peak is going to be heard before everything else. This is often caused by the room and/or improper setup. Every room will have it's own response characteristics. Placement is a key factor in getting the best frequency response. Not taking the time to experiment and implement the sub in the system with the best possible placement can cause the best subs available sound like crap, muddy, boomy or whatever term one wants to use.


thank you, thats the kind of info i was looking for. so basically it sounds like you want a lower first number in the frequency response.. the thing thats confusing is the cube lists a 14 like you mention, but your right theres no +/- after it. So to be clear what i want to look at is low frequency with a +/-3 dB anechoic rating tacked on at the end, the lower the better, right? I.e. something with a 14-200 +3db anehoic rating would be better than something with a 24-200 +3db anehoic rating,

+/3 numbers are a good guide to see what a subs capable operating range is. Just be careful not to mistake these numbers for total output capability as many people do. There is no way the the little SC is going to have any kind usable output at 14hz. I'm sure it will play at 14hz or they wouldn't say it but it's output at 14hz will be so far down you won't notice it making it unusable. DT is famous for giving specs without -/+ 3 numbers. Yes a TRUE -14Hz response is better than a TRUE 24hz response but I don't think you'll find that anywhere near your price range an you'll likely have to go much bigger to do it. Also you have to consider the response across the full capable range.

then what does the 2nd number effect/mean? i notice some only go to like 100 (the ED a3-300 has a 18-100 rating), others go all the way to like 500. kinda important because the Abyss is rated 23–120 Hz ±3dB; Anechoic through LFE effects input, and the epik im kinda looking at as a lead alternitive right now untill i get the ported/sealed thing sorted (since its definatly sealed) is a Frequency response: 20 - 500 Hz +/-3 dB anechoic that 2nd number is WAY higher so im very curious what it means and how that will effect performance.

The second number is the subwoofers upper band frequency range. This could matter if you have speakers that aren't capable of bass response down to where the sub upper end roll off. That would depends on your specific speakers.

does this roll of your talking about just mean it just doesn't deliver the sound, or is the sound distorted: the 'muddy' kinda distorted sound i heard when listening to the supercube?

Roll off has nothing to do with distortion. It's simply the rate at which the subs output level goes down after it's rated spec. Ported as stated falls off much faster. Sealed is more gradual. I suspect what your explaining between them is from improper setup or the SC has a much smaller less capable driver. Also I've heard the Abyss. It's an awesome little sub that I would have no problems in recommending for someone looking for a small sealed sub. It's tight, clean and well designed. I do think it's WAYYYY overpriced and one could get more for the money but that doesn't change the fact it's a good sealed sub.

hmm but most of the sealed subs i look at have a higher lower end number than the passive subs. Epik is a good example of this. they have 2 lines of the same quality, one passive one sealed:

sentinal, is passive
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedsentinel.html
and lists it as
Frequency response: 18 - 200 Hz +/-3 dB anechoic

vanquish is sealed
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/sealedvanquish.html
and lists
Frequency response: 20 - 500 Hz +/-3 dB anechoic

so wouldn't that actually make the passive one roll off lower? is it that passives roll off lower, but that when they do roll off its more severe than sealed ones? this would only make sense if roll off means the sound just gets distorted and not lost. Im kinda confused

Yes, again everything else being equal in those terms sealed will extend lower below the porteds tuning point due to the more gradual roll off. But is the output level at that point usable. The slope has nothing to do with distortion. It shouldn't get noticeably distorted unless it's playing out of it's capabilities. It's simply the slope in which the output level is reduced.

For your needs I'd recommend going ported. You'll get more output for your $$, down low and across the frequency range.

oh ya, and how important is wattage? i never see anyone really talking about it, does it not matter?

Wattage ratings alone mean little to nothing. The only absolute one could say here is ported designs are more efficient and take less wattage to achieve the same output levels which contributes to the price vs performance ratio.

one thing to add, i notice HSU doesn't list their freq range like normal, they just list
Bass Extension (max extension mode)
18 Hz
Bass Extension (max output mode)
25 Hz

what does that mean? is that the same as the lower numbers in the freq response stuff?

Yes it is, some of the HSU models give the ability to change the low end response by plugging one of the ports, that in turn changes it's low end capability.

thank you, thats the kind of info i was looking for. so basically it sounds like you want a lower first number in the frequency response.. the thing thats confusing is the cube lists a 14 like you mention, but your right theres no +/- after it. hmm.

So to be clear what i want to look at is low frequency with a +/-3 dB anechoic rating tacked on at the end, the lower the better, right? I.e. something with a 14-200 +3db anehoic rating would be better than something with a 24-200 +3db anehoic rating, right? If thats the case, then what does the 2nd number effect/mean? i notice some only go to like 100 (the ED a3-300 has a 18-100 rating), others go all the way to like 500. kinda important because the Abyss is rated 23–120 Hz ±3dB; Anechoic through LFE effects input, and the epik im kinda looking at as a lead alternitive right now untill i get the ported/sealed thing sorted (since its definatly sealed) is a Frequency response: 20 - 500 Hz +/-3 dB anechoic that 2nd number is WAY higher so im very curious what it means and how that will effect performance

does this roll of your talking about just mean it just doesn't deliver the sound, or is the sound distorted: the 'muddy' kinda distorted sound i heard when listening to the supercube?

this parts kinda confusing too
" in ported and passive radiator subs, the "roll-off" will be more drastic about 24db per octave i believe. sealed subs usually have a 12 db per octave roll-off which is more gradual unless the sub has a high pass filter blocking out the lows"

hmm but most of the sealed subs i look at have a higher lower end number than the passive subs. Epik is a good example of this. they have 2 lines of the same quality, one passive one sealed:

sentinal, is passive
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedsentinel.html
and lists it as
Frequency response: 18 - 200 Hz +/-3 dB anechoic

vanquish is sealed
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/sealedvanquish.html
and lists
Frequency response: 20 - 500 Hz +/-3 dB anechoic

so wouldn't that actually make the passive one roll off lower? is it that passives roll off lower, but that when they do roll off its more severe than sealed ones? this would only make sense if roll off means the sound just gets distorted and not lost. Im kinda confused

i do appreciate the links you gave, they jived with most of the stuff sugested that i found searchign, im just trying to figure out which of those would work best with my gaming setup, im not sure which are sealed or ported, or if i even want sealed or ported quite yet. Hell i wasn't even sure what most of the specs meant. The only thing i confirmed is that HSU's are ported, they were the only ones that weren't closed when i called, and of course the epiks have different lines for the 2 types

oh ya, and how important is wattage? i never see anyone really talking about it, does it not matter?



i didn't look at the rythmics too much because they use some kinda servo technology ive never heard of.. what the heck is that anyway.It says its a sealed sub. I dont see the freq response ratings either, they just keep ranting about their patented servo tech =P

tnx guys

*EDIT* one thing to add, i notice HSU doesn't list their freq range like normal, they just list
Bass Extension (max extension mode)
18 Hz
Bass Extension (max output mode)
25 Hz

what does that mean? is that the same as the lower numbers in the freq response stuff?

+/- 3db numbers are a good guide but don't tell the whole story. they don't tell how loud a sub will play at each frequency and they don't tell you how a sub will sound

like speakers, you should really audition subs if you can or do a lot of reading and even more importantly if you can't hear a sub for yourself, read testimonies from people who have lived with several subs

tnx for all the good info jake



Every room will have it's own response characteristics. Placement is a key factor in getting the best frequency response. Not taking the time to experiment and implement the sub in the system with the best possible placement can cause the best subs available sound like crap, muddy, boomy or whatever term one wants to use.

THis is something im kinda worried about since i dont know much about setup at all, worried im gonna be taking forever to figure out a good spot to put it.. what looks good from my room layout? i was thinking to the left of the chair against the wall, near the desk (under the rear speaker) or would that cause problems with the speakers? Another thought would be in the open closet by the door, not really sure. i think up front by the 2 towers with teh built in bass would be a bit much


The second number is the subwoofers upper band frequency range. This could matter if you have speakers that aren't capable of bass response down to where the sub upper end roll off. That would depends on your specific speakers.


so would the 20-500 freq response of the vanquish be a problem coupled with the towers with the built in subs upfront? Im assuming theres a dial or something to set it back down to like 100 or something like most sealed subs seem to be?



Also I've heard the Abyss. It's an awesome little sub that I would have no problems in recommending for someone looking for a small sealed sub. It's tight, clean and well designed. I do think it's WAYYYY overpriced and one could get more for the money but that doesn't change the fact it's a good sealed sub.


the safest thing might be to just get that since i KNOW i like how it sounded. the thing is i dont feel like paying that much for it. Espeically with the whole lame authorized dealer/warranty thing (wtf is that crap ive never come across a piece of equip with policies like that)

would you say the vanquish would out perform or is at least equal to the abyss?
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/sealedvanquish.html

if so maybe i'll just say f it and go for that and stop worrying about what a good ported would sound like instead


For your needs I'd recommend going ported. You'll get more output for your $$, down low and across the frequency range.


i guess the whole output thing is a bit confusing to me. I keep hearing about ports having higher output and output droping when the frequency range dips, but whats output actually mean? does output translate to just more shaking bass? stability? what? because just bass isn't neceserially what i want. Games have a lot of explosions and gunfire, but they're usually in rapid succession and constantly changing. Not long drawn out like movies. Wouldn't hat mean a sealed might be better?


Wattage ratings alone mean little to nothing. The only absolute one could say here is ported designs are more efficient and take less wattage to achieve the same output levels which contributes to the price vs performance ratio.


a lot of the times the sealed subs actually are cheaper than the ported though. shouldn't hte ported be cheaper if they're more efficient and use lower wattage stuff? i.e. epiks sealed/ported lines, the ported is more expensive

THis is something im kinda worried about since i dont know much about setup at all, worried im gonna be taking forever to figure out a good spot to put it.. what looks good from my room layout? i was thinking to the left of the chair against the wall, near the desk (under the rear speaker) or would that cause problems with the speakers? Another thought would be in the open closet by the door, not really sure. i think up front by the 2 towers with teh built in bass would be a bit much

It's hard to say which placement will give the best response for you in your room from your listening position. It's really not that difficult to narrow down just takes a little time. Pick the possible placement options you have and then try them to see which gives you the best overall response.

A popular way to do this and less time consuming than moving the sub to each place is to place the sub at your listening position, then play some music with a good bass track that your familiar with and listen to the same material from each possible placement position. Then place the sub in that position and your done.

so would the 20-500 freq response of the vanquish be a problem coupled with the towers with the built in subs upfront? Im assuming theres a dial or something to set it back down to like 100 or something like most sealed subs seem to be?

Not a problem at all, if anything depending on the crossover setting it'll help provide seemless integration with the mains. If you've got quality towers for all practical purposes the upper end number is a non issue.

would you say the vanquish would out perform or is at least equal to the abyss?
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/sealedvanquish.html

Hard to say without hearing them both but in my personal opinion it would.

However both of these are small sealed designs and with your stated 90% gaming 10% HT and stating that size isn't an issue I would personally recommend going with the Sentinel or if you can go even bigger and probably save some $$ with one of the other recommended choices in the same price range or less from SVS, HSU, or ED. The SVS PB12-NSD is on sale right now, will save you quite a bit of $$ over the Vanquish and have more overall output and is a proven quality choice.

If you're really hung up on sealed then I'd recommend checking out the Elemental Designs A7S-450 which is a very well reviewed sealed design but it's quite a bit bigger than the Abyss you saw or the Vanquish.

I guess the whole output thing is a bit confusing to me. I keep hearing about ports having higher output and output droping when the frequency range dips, but whats output actually mean? does output translate to just more shaking bass? stability? what? because just bass isn't neceserially what i want. Games have a lot of explosions and gunfire, but they're usually in rapid succession and constantly changing. Not long drawn out like movies. Wouldn't hat mean a sealed might be better?

Not necessarily. A quality ported sub can provide just as good of performance for those rapid succession gunshots your talking about. I think what your getting hung up on is your experience from hearing the little Def Tech and that's not a good demo to go by in comparison to the quality of subs we're talking about here.

What is meant by output capability is the level it can be played before the sub hits it's limits and starts showing signs of compression or distortion. It doesn't mean you have to play it at those levels but even when it's not at those levels a sub with higher output capability (or headroom) than you actually need will be able to play dynamic peaks from those gunshots, explosions or whatever without stressing out.

a lot of the times the sealed subs actually are cheaper than the ported though. shouldn't hte ported be cheaper if they're more efficient and use lower wattage stuff? i.e. epiks sealed/ported lines, the ported is more expensive

In my experience ported is usually cheaper on a price vs performance ratio. Take for instance the small sealed SVS PB12 Plus which cost more than the PB12 NSD and will have less ouptput capablity and less lower end extension. Sealed in most if not all cases I've seen cost more on a price vs performance ratio.

It's hard to say which placement will give the best response for you in your room from your listening position. It's really not that difficult to narrow down just takes a little time. Pick the possible placement options you have and then try them to see which gives you the best overall response.

A popular way to do this and less time consuming than moving the sub to each place is to place the sub at your listening position, then play some music with a good bass track that your familiar with and listen to the same material from each possible placement position. Then place the sub in that position and your done.


thats a pretty good idea. in this case id pop in fallout 3 and have a friend fire off round after round of plasma rifle ammo, that has booming sound, or fire off the flamethrower



Not a problem at all, if anything depending on the crossover setting it'll help provide seemless integration with the mains. If you've got quality towers for all practical purposes the upper end number is a non issue.


do you physically dial down the freq response on the sub, or from the audio receiver? or wait, i think im confusing the freq response with the xover.. which ones the one that has a dial on the sub usually? is the freq always just inate? this is something im going to have to look into when i set it up, do you know of any good general guides on this?


Hard to say without hearing them both but in my personal opinion it would.

However both of these are small sealed designs and with your stated 90% gaming 10% HT and stating that size isn't an issue I would personally recommend going with the Sentinel or if you can go even bigger and probably save some $$ with one of the other recommended choices in the same price range or less from SVS, HSU, or ED. The SVS PB12-NSD is on sale right now, will save you quite a bit of $$ over the Vanquish and have more overall output and is a proven quality choice.

If you're really hung up on sealed then I'd recommend checking out the Elemental Designs A7S-450 which is a very well reviewed sealed design but it's quite a bit bigger than the Abyss you saw or the Vanquish.


this is my biggest problem im going by all theory pretty much, like you said hard to say without hearing them both. Since the only 2 i heard weren't very fair comparisons i guess. The supercube II isn't a real ported sub i guess, so the abyss sounded so much better.. maybe a good regular ported sub would have sounded way more awesome but i dont know. Its not that im totally hung up on sealeds its just that the sealed i heard sounded so good compared to what ive heard before, maybe its skewed me. I dont know how this extra output the ported suposedly have would translate in actual SOUND. how would the explosions differ, gunfire, ect.

the thing bout the svs is it doesn't give you any real detailed stats on the page. It has a bunch of good reviews and people seem to think its good though. i notice the ed a3-300 is on sale as well, by a hundred bucks, would that be a good bet?
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=102

hell, why are the epiks so much more expensive? comparig them to, say the ED the stats seem quite similar.. is the epik really better in some way? hell for the price of the sent i could get the 15" http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=618


Not necessarily. A quality ported sub can provide just as good of performance for those rapid succession gunshots your talking about. I think what your getting hung up on is your experience from hearing the little Def Tech and that's not a good demo to go by in comparison to the quality of subs we're talking about here.

What is meant by output capability is the level it can be played before the sub hits it's limits and starts showing signs of compression or distortion. It doesn't mean you have to play it at those levels but even when it's not at those levels a sub with higher output capability (or headroom) than you actually need will be able to play dynamic peaks from those gunshots, explosions or whatever without stressing out.


blea i think that may be my problem, the cube wasn't a fair comparison i guess, maybe i should go find a good ported sub they have and try it, i dont want to drag my game systems back down there though, ungh. So your saying a good ported sub will still have those crisp cracks of the gunshots as well as the undistorted booming bass of the plasma rifles and flamethrower crackle?

if the answer is yes, then would any of these honestly be a decent buy:
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedsentinel.html
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=102
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=618

still not getting why the epiks so pricey.. i can get the 15" ed version for the same price


In my experience ported is usually cheaper on a price vs performance ratio. Take for instance the small sealed SVS PB12 Plus which cost more than the PB12 NSD and will have less ouptput capablity and less lower end extension. Sealed in most if not all cases I've seen cost more on a price vs performance ratio.


hmm the ones i was looking at, ED and epik were the opposite. i.e. ed's ported
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=102
vs the sealed
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=407

and epiks ported
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedsentinel.html
vs sealed
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/sealedvanquish.html

are those odd exceptions to the rule i guess?


+/- 3db numbers are a good guide but don't tell the whole story. they don't tell how loud a sub will play at each frequency and they don't tell you how a sub will sound

like speakers, you should really audition subs if you can or do a lot of reading and even more importantly if you can't hear a sub for yourself, read testimonies from people who have lived with several subs

this is whats so frustrating, im stuck with testimonials and any reviews i can happen to find since i cant audition the subs

tnx again for the answers

do you physically dial down the freq response on the sub, or from the audio receiver? or wait, i think im confusing the freq response with the xover.. which ones the one that has a dial on the sub usually? is the freq always just inate? this is something im going to have to look into when i set it up, do you know of any good general guides on this?

Set the receivers crossover frequency. That will keep information above that point from going to the sub.

Its not that im totally hung up on sealeds its just that the sealed i heard sounded so good compared to what ive heard before, maybe its skewed me.

I think it has. See if you can find some audio dealers in your area that have a good demo environment. Best Buy is the worst place to demo anything.

I dont know how this extra output the ported suposedly have would translate in actual SOUND. how would the explosions differ, gunfire, ect.

Extra capable output doesn't change the sound until you reach the limit then you'll notice that you need more.

the thing bout the svs is it doesn't give you any real detailed stats on the page.

SVS gives very detailed stats along with frequency charts on every model. They are as much or more in depth than anyone and if there is something you still need to know they have one of if not the best customer support in the business.

i notice the ed a3-300 is on sale as well, by a hundred bucks, would that be a good bet?

ED makes great products and for your needs I think that would be a very good pick.

So your saying a good ported sub will still have those crisp cracks of the gunshots as well as the undistorted booming bass of the plasma rifles and flamethrower crackle?

If it's a quality sub, set up and calibrated correctly, yes.

if the answer is yes, then would any of these honestly be a decent buy:
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedsentinel.html
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=102
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=618

All of them are very good buys. I personally think you need to narrow down a budget and stick with it and that will help you narrow down to a few choices. Then do more in depth research between those. If your budget is truly $800 and you don't have any size requirements I would have to say the ED A5-350 would be my first choice. But they all are good choices at their respective size and price points.

hmm the ones i was looking at, ED and epik were the opposite. i.e. ed's ported
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=102
vs the sealed
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=2&products_id=407

and epiks ported
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedsentinel.html
vs sealed
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/sealedvanquish.html

are those odd exceptions to the rule i guess?

Those are sub with a wide variety of performance and price points, apples to oranges. Everything else equal sealed designs are less efficient meaning it takes more power to equal a ported subs performance this in turn makes sealed more expensive to get the same level or performance.

tnx for the help. Ive narrowed it down, i think im going for a ported. Either the ED a3-300, the svs pb12-nsd, or the epik sentinel. My budget was 700 bucks which puts me in an odd place. the svs and ed are both on sale for around 550bucks. While the sentinel, which was the most expensive anyway is not on sale at all putting it just slightly above my 700 mark. Blea maybe i'll just alt tab through their windows randomly and pick one