I am a timeshifter and want to stay that way. I have read about analog/digital, copy protection, etc. I just set up a Toshiba 660 dvd/vcr (normally just use VCRS for timeshift).

My surprise was: I have cable and last night I went through the channels after setting up. ABC (Channel 13 here) was a black screen and said "Protected Program by NR". My older VCRS all got the channel but not this new recorder. I consider ABC being an OTA channel as free to copy. I saw in the TV guide it was the NBA finals my Toshiba would not show me on the TV but my regular TV cable had it, my other VCRs had it.

I have suspected all free tv is going to be copyprotected, like killing the golden goose. If I was at work and wanted to tape that game to see when I got home....well, I would be furious. I tried to tape what was on the screen with another VCR and it showed a black screen, "no signal", and did not show the copy protected wording...switch back to the Toshiba and the words are still there. Looks like new tuners will not be working when no one knows if a commercial or a simple TV program will be "protected". I know the idea is we cannot copy anything and must pay to watch every minute of our free TV. I'm still fighting that idea. Anyone else notice this new type of protection?

I don't know if that was due to a CPRM flag or not. I will be checking an antenna connection I can use to see if all free OTA channels will be getting copy protected.

Can't watch what you can't copy...including commercials. I assume advertisers don't mind that? Don't like what I see at all as far as free TV channels or cable I am paying for.
I have other things to try on this but just wondering if others are noticing regular TV channels are now acting like PPV? Will post updates as I find out more about DVD recorders. By the way, the DVD/VCR....the VCR had the same black picture and words...so that analog signal was turned off also.

You are not alone in your annoyance with this "new deal", and I suspect after June 12th pulls all the latecomers into this mess we're going to see howls of protest nationwide. For whatever reason, the supposedly "free to record OTA channels" are anything but under the ATSC/QAM system. The OTA dtv signals are regularly contaminated by alleged "accidental" copy-inhibit flags, rendering recorders useless. This occurs even more often with cable, whether or not you use the decoder box: cable is flagging things randomly which are not supposed to be flagged at all, its unclear whether this is due to cable head-end processing or whether the feeds supplied by the individual channels are randomly protected.

Overall it stinks, and I suspect it will be a very long time before it gets straightened out, if ever. The number of USA residents using their own "generic" recorders bought from electronics stores is now insignificant compared to the number using cable/satellite supplied recorders or TiVO. Those subscription recorders will record anything, protected or not, because they don't include DVD burners. People who use them will never notice a problem and won't complain. Between the OTA reception issues and inability to record, it looks like ATSC will quickly be relegated to secondary TV sets for occasional use. Nice transition we're having.

Thanks for the reply. I had a good reply for you but the forum keeps saying refresh and log in again to post and so I lost all I said. I give up. But thanks for stopping by. I will be interested in all thoughts.

Yeah, comcast is trying to force all of it's non box users to get a basic box that truly sucks. No HDMI outs, components, HD, nothing but RF and analog RCA outs on it.
I have a LG 4200a that so far gets everything they broadcast in the clear and even does the HD channels that are clear as well, plus outputs DD5.1 sound, new box will not. I know maybe your talking about OTA but I pay for this too and the locals are sposed to be broadcast in the clear unmolested so depending on what they actually do in June this may change.
I wont even hook this new POS up and I guess I'll wait and see what happens in June. If they force me to rent a box to get things I can do now for free I'll cancel the TV part at least...:mad:

I shifted from CC to Direct and have no problems recording anything from them. Most of my recordings are movies (and some Sunrise Earth) which I record from the Direct HR-22 HD Dvr to my Phillips 3575. It is an SD signal over svideo, but that is as good as I could get with the HD clear signals from CC. PQ is excellent. Since the output is SD, no flags are needed.

I wonder if a Tivo would have the same problems recording? I have the Tivo HDXL and it has worked without a hitch on the over the air HD and SD stuff. And I do not have cable, just OTA via antenna and D*. I wonder if it would work without these copy right issues on your cable box, as cable users seem to be their largest customer base.

I wonder if a Tivo would have the same problems recording? I have the Tivo HDXL and it has worked without a hitch on the over the air HD and SD stuff. And I do not have cable, just OTA via antenna and D*. I wonder if it would work without these copy right issues on your cable box, as cable users seem to be their largest customer base.TiVo ignores any OTA broadcast flags so there is never a problem recording anything that is broadcast and subsequently transferring it to a PC for archival storage or burning to disk.

I don't have any cable box...just cable ready TVs and VCRs. My DVD experience has been with my 2 PCs where I can burn DVD okay. I decided to get a DVD Recorder with the new tuners to see what I could do as far as timeshifting. I got a Toshiba 560..not hooked up yet..,and the Toshiba 660..just hooked up. Will be transferring some VHS tapes to DVD and figured this was a good start. But I am mindful of the TV transitions and read many reviews from users having CPRM problems and ways around it. You can only get so much from reading so I decided to work these new recorders into my regular VCRs timeshifting schedule but first I wanted to see what the DVD recorder "sees" to record and was upset to see that my cable station which is also a local OTA station was "protected".
I am going to experiment with a roof antenna I have and the new ATSC tuners to see if real free OTA is blocked at all. I have read where others have had it blocked at times. Just want to check it all out so I can decide how I am going to timeshift now and in the future. My cable company will keep analog for 3 years then all goes digital but I want to see what is available before the time is up.

I don't want to have a hard drive PVR as I read in a computer mag about a fellow there found much of his stored TV programs were erased somehow. Since I already see how copy once can copy to a hdd and then if copied elsewhere the hdd copy is erased...sounds like too much outside control for me.

I intend to pass along anything I learn about analog/digital changes and being able to freely record what is not premium. I don't believe our choices should be taken away so easily.

I can do DVD to DVD fine but I want to see about my VHS tapes to DVD for the future and also learn to use DVD for my timeshifting..if I don't get too frustrated with the "handcuffs" we all seem to be getting.

I intend to pass along anything I learn about analog/digital changes and being able to freely record what is not premium. I don't believe our choices should be taken away so easily.

I can do DVD to DVD fine but I want to see about my VHS tapes to DVD for the future and also learn to use DVD for my timeshifting..if I don't get too frustrated with the "handcuffs" we all seem to be getting.The paradigm for recording and time-shifting from cable has been changing as they make their shift to digital delivery of cable TV (not to be confused with the broadcast DTV transition). In their future state -- which more closely resembles the business models of sat and FIOS -- you will still be able to record for time-shifting, but in most cases not without added cost and new equipment of their choosing. Analog CATV tuners in legacy equipment will be useless as analog is eliminated. Do not make the mistake of equating their commitment to support your analog equipment as meaning they will continue to transmit analog signals. Many have or will cut analog, as did FIOS, and are supplying go-between "converter boxes" which will allow some extra use from legacy recorders but will cripple their recording functionality as they are reduced to 1-event recorders and incur a fee for the box. New recorders with digital tuners are targeted more for the OTA crowd. That's because digital QAM tuners are not universally useful for cable recording -- many cable companies routinely reassign the channel mappings of their clear-QAM offerings which causes the QAM tuners in recorders to "lose" the channels until rescanned. Not exactly reliable, care-free operation.

No matter how you cut it, the future of recording/timeshifting from cable is going to cost you more and offer you less choices.

The paradigm for recording and time-shifting from cable has been changing as they make their shift to digital delivery of cable TV . . . you will still be able to record for time-shifting, but in most cases not without added cost and new equipment of their choosing. Analog CATV tuners in legacy equipment will be useless as analog is eliminated. Do not make the mistake of equating their commitment to support your analog equipment as meaning they will continue to transmit analog signals.


. . . Many have or will cut analog, as did FIOS, and are supplying go-between "converter boxes" which will allow some extra use from legacy recorders but will cripple their recording functionality as they are reduced to 1-event recorders and incur a fee for the box. New recorders with digital tuners are targeted more for the OTA crowd. That's because digital QAM tuners are not universally useful for cable recording -- many cable companies routinely reassign the channel mappings of their clear-QAM offerings which causes the QAM tuners in recorders to "lose" the channels until rescanned. Not exactly reliable, care-free operation.

No matter how you cut it, the future of recording/timeshifting from cable is going to cost you more and offer you less choices.

Kelson,

Your observations are spot-on.

This is the text from one of my recent posts in the local (Portland Oregon) Comcast thread:

It remains to be seen what will happen to Comcast digital channels in the 73 to 135 range. If one of the Comcast converter boxes is needed to receive and unscramble those channels our QAM-tuner equipped Philips and Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders will be limited to recording these digital channels on analog channel 3 or the analog composite inputs.

What that really means is that Comcast is not upgrading to digital but downgrading to analog for customers that already have QAM tuner equipped recorders.

And that is exactly right. The "free" tuner box they give us only does analog conversion, nothing more so it's useless to anybody with a true HDTV and AV setup hooked into the system. :mad:
The only good thing out of this is I was able to call and get them to drop my total cable bill just by asking if they had any promo's they could apply, but they said I needed to get the box they have been bugging me about for 3 months by mail and by phone...

I shifted from CC to Direct and have no problems recording anything from them.

I'm glad you are not having any recording problems, you have been lucky so far, but subscription satellite is not free from these issues: other people have indeed been reporting DirectTV/DiSH recording blocks. Again, this only applies to those using a plain ordinary generic store-bought DVD recorder: if you use the dedicated decoder box/recorder supplied by your satellite provider, it will record everything with no restriction. The problems begin when you try to break free of this "closed system" to make a DVD recording directly onto a non-subscription recorder.

Little by little, home recording "rights" are being steadily eroded and will eventually vanish: this is one of the biggest yet least-understood sacrifices we "agreed to" when we rushed headlong to embrace hang on the wall TVs and HDTV signals. Those who thought they could indefinitely rely on free TV or flexible low-cost boxless cable to make their recordings are the ones who'll lose, because they're a minority and they don't generate subscription revenue for the big conglomerates.

Eight out of ten buyers of large-screen TVs opt for cable/satellite feeds as the only reliable source of HDTV in their area. Large-screen TVs usually have HDMI, HDMI is cheap to implement in decoder boxes, and HDMI conveniently closes the analog tap used by generic recorders. The trend fairly soon will be toward smaller HDMI-only decoder boxes which limit users to proprietary PVRs or the TiVO juggernaut. Even the proprietary PVRs will eventually be phased out in favor of massive new server clusters at cablecos providing "virtual PVRs" with all your "recordings" actually stored at the cable company as personalized on-demand qeues.

Anyone whose hobby involves keeping permanent individual control over their own TV recordings had better start learning how to cobble together and use a home theater PC, and perhaps coughing up for a TiVO networking subscription as the only useful programming source to feed it. The gains won in the old Betamax court battle are fading fast.

And that is exactly right. The "free" tuner box they give us only does analog conversion, nothing more so it's useless to anybody with a true HDTV and AV setup hooked into the system. :mad:
The only good thing out of this is I was able to call and get them to drop my total cable bill just by asking if they had any promo's they could apply, but they said I needed to get the box they have been bugging me about for 3 months by mail and by phone...

For now, Comcast's policy for areas where they have handed out these DTAs, saying you need one on every TV to get any channels above the limited basic ones, is to leave the digital versions of expanded basic channels(20ish through 99) unencrypted. The cheap, free(first 2 in addition to your digital cable box) DTAs are essentially QAM tuners. These boxes can't tune encrypted channels. If you plug cable into your DVD recorder with a QAM tuner, you should find all of those SD channels in digital format.

Now this might change, Comcast is trying to get a waiver from the FCC to enable "privacy mode" on these DTA boxes, if they turn that on, then forget it, QAM tuners on HDTVs, DVD recorders, etc won't be able to find them anymore.

Well I hope the FCC sees this for what it is and blocks that move. They hardly give any channels now in open HD and if they block most of the normal ones there wont be much left worth paying for in basic cable.
I'll end up dropping the TV part if it gets that bad, what's the point of having any of this gear I paid for just so it no longer works and they force me to pay more for a lousy DVR box I shouldn't have to rent.
I do for now get all the new digital channels with both my 3575 and the LG 4200a, only thing they scrambled is the normal pay extra stuff and the on demand ones that used to come in open.

Well I hope the FCC sees this for what it is and blocks that move.

Write to the FCC and let them know how you feel.

P.S. I was answering Kelson's response to me but I see more here since I was last on. Thank all of you for keeping this conversation going and getting the information out there...at least, out here.

Promise this is my only long soapbox response but I hope there is useful information in what I am going to say that alerts others. Here is it:

Kelson: as you said: “No matter how you cut it, the future of recording/timeshifting from cable is going to cost you more and offer you less choices.”

I totally agree that is the intention of the entertainment industry even though I vaguely remember reading that the Feds said this would not be done unless consumers would be able to get their own set top box and not be at the mercy of the cable industry. The industry “learned” when they allowed cable ready TVS and then VCRs that people could actually use these products and the industry only made money off the actual cable feed. So with digital control – there is no limit to the consumer harm that can be done.

That is why I am learning at this time what I can about what is going on now. If there is a way to circumvent unfairness, I’ll try to find it or find someone on the Internet who has found it.

The NTSC (analog) tuner in cable will only exist until 2012 (my cable company). The ATSC (digital) tuner is for Antenna reception (OTA). My area has few Antenna channels so I rely on cable for a choice to watch. Even so, I have read reviews of DVD Recorders where the “copy protect” signal was found trying to copy from OTA. That to me is a crime,. That is the free TV channels we have always had where no matter what our income was, everyone could come home and enjoy some TV. Timeshifting just allows many to see shows they enjoy that are on either too late at night or for ones who work nights, are not available to watch when they are free. If OTA is truly open, that is an alternative I want if I can’t timeshift the major channels on cable.

People have been told the “flag” does not affect analog. Well, I saw a “free” channel showing “copy protected” such that I could not even just watch the signal from the recorder on my TV. I wasn’t attempting to record. Even the LG8971T Manual I downloaded to check it out, actually says for their VCR/DVD machine that a copy protected program cannot be recorded on the DVD or VCR. So much for analog being okay on the new VCRs.

Again, you are correct that digital QAM tuner is not useful for cable recording. So for digital, the choice seems to be OTA for a few channels including networks or the Tru2way cards that may come out for cable. The original Cable Card idea is already obsolete. Tru2way ready TVs were shown at the CES show in late 2008 and it was promised some of these would be available in 2009. Then I read in 2009 that of all the models that came out in 2009, NOT ONE had this capability. I assume that means something was too good for the consumers so the industry has to work out more details.

I remember the 1-event recording and a fee for the box when cable first started meaning something. I rented 2 boxes so I could tape one (no copy protected on basic cable) and watch the other. Then cable ready TVs came out. No more set top boxes needed. I am not going backwards without a fight.

I just bought a new VCR/DVD combo and a stand-alone DVD Recorder. I wanted to see what they do about copy protection. My old VCRs ignore copy protection if it really is being sent over an analog cable signal, which I believe I saw the other night. What my old VCRs could record (network ABC), my new VCR/DVD could not record or allow the picture to come through at all.
I have read some people buy these new ones for the tuners instead of a set top box. Wait until all the OTA copy protection kicks in, they won’t be allowed to “watch” the signal on their TV at all, if they use these recorders to just watch. I guess on a VCR/DVD combo, it is easier to drop the signal completely on a protected program rather than figure out how to just stop recording. These are the minds we are dealing with.

So far I can tell my new NTSC tuner is useless so to tape on the new recorder, I will have to set up an old VCR tuner signal to come into the new recorder through the external connections. Doing it this way will stop the flag…an awkward but free way to record regular basic cable.

For all I have said, remember I am talking about recording the cable I already pay for and/or the OTA we have paid for. This is what seems to be prevented now and will get worse.

Sorry for the soapbox, but I have given all this a lot of thought and if I don’t find a way to succeed, it won’t be because of lack of trying. I am furious at what is coming and the word is not out about what is really happening. Like I said, I will be glad to share any information with my fellow consumers if I find out anything helpful.

Mac mini with eyeTV.

Torrents.

Stay ahead of the game. I now watch the third season of Primeval one day after it airs in the UK whereas the SyFy channel is just now showing season 1.
I also watched the Doctor Who "Easter special" the day after; it won't be shown here till July, IIRC. I have this past season of Medium, Castle, and a few others on my Mac to watch this summer.

HD? No, but no damn annoying commercials either. I can watch an hour show in a little over 40 minutes.

They actually make an HD version of that.

Kelson: as you said: “No matter how you cut it, the future of recording/timeshifting from cable is going to cost you more and offer you less choices.”

I totally agree that is the intention of the entertainment industry even though I vaguely remember reading that the Feds said this would not be done unless consumers would be able to get their own set top box and not be at the mercy of the cable industry. The industry “learned” when they allowed cable ready TVS and then VCRs that people could actually use these products and the industry only made money off the actual cable feed. So with digital control – there is no limit to the consumer harm that can be done.

If there is a way to circumvent unfairness, I’ll try to find it or find someone on the Internet who has found it.You are not alone in your frustration. People never like it when the price increases or the trems of service tighten and post about it all the time. The simple fact is that cable is evolving to the business model that sat and especially FIOS have now. They have to eliminate analog inorder to recover the bandwidth for new digital services to compete with FIOS. FIOS eliminated transmission of analog signals and handed out "free" converter boxes to support legacy analog devices. They are very limited in the clear QAM channels they allow. If you want full function you have to rent their STB and or DVR and they have a separate pricing structure for HD.

This is where cable is heading. What would be unfair is for the FCC to hold cable to an uncompetitive and less profitable business model while FIOS is permitted to go their merry way.

You will always be able to time-shift, just not with the freedom to choose any equipment you want.

I can only hope that all this takes a number of years to be here. Usually industries don't move real fast. I have read that analog connections will be here for quite awhile even when digital is going forward and that leaves the "hole".

While I am waiting, I will do what I enjoy....electronic detective work. I just got all the cables I ordered and have decided to set up a new DVD/VCR and a new DVD recorder ...one on OTA and one on my cable (analog). I will be looking for the CPRM flag I know these new recorders are very sensitive to. I want to see just what signals and what stations will send these down.

I can flip the TV picture from the cable recorder to the OTA recorder and if I see no signal...then flip to my older VCRs which show the picture perfectly.

I understand what you mean about time-shifting in the future..but just like the "nanny state", I don't want to be charged for the air I breathe (in other words, my recording choice). I definitely would not want control to be elsewhere. One stupid glitch and my recordings disappear? Well, until there really is absolutely no other way...I will try to set up what works for me. And, if there is no other way in the future, hopefully there will be other choices for entertainment than what we have now. Without competition, we, the consumer, would be completely lost.

Mac mini with eyeTV.

Torrents.

Stay ahead of the game. I now watch the third season of Primeval one day after it airs in the UK whereas the SyFy channel is just now showing season 1.
I also watched the Doctor Who "Easter special" the day after; it won't be shown here till July, IIRC. I have this past season of Medium, Castle, and a few others on my Mac to watch this summer.

HD? No, but no damn annoying commercials either. I can watch an hour show in a little over 40 minutes.


How do you do this? I know a lot of people get video from all types of sources, but I’ve always been concerned about my PC picking up viruses, etc. I presume some sites are known to be OK, but how do you know? Is there a forum or tutorial that can provide the basics?

Thanks in advance.

For all I have said, remember I am talking about recording the cable I already pay for and/or the OTA we have paid for. This is what seems to be prevented now and will get worse.

I agree completely. All I want to be able to do is record something to watch later...rarely I record something to save it (such as a special program or something), but usually my favorite TV shows will be released on DVD in 6 months or so, so I don't often even bother to record these to save anymore (I can just rent/buy them later on). I don't want to sell them. I don't want to give them to someone else. I just want to watch them, and delete afterwards. So why can't I do that (off of network stations or cable)? Why should I have to pay for the cable company's DVR that I can't really afford right now, if I can use my DVD recorder that I already have?

My father-in-law has a Sony DVD recorder that is all but useless, as copy-protection keeps him from being able to save even simple things like TV shows or movies off of certain cable channels (NOT stations like HBO etc., either, just regular stations that he pays for). It's a shame. He had to buy a different brand of recorder just to be able to even save/record anything.

I know getting cable is a choice, and I do choose to pay for it so I can watch TV. (In my area it's either cable or satellite -- in this neighborhood there is ONE OTA channel available, due to terrain, etc.) But if we're paying for it, the least they can allow us to do is record/save shows off of cable channels that we ARE paying for already.

Getting off my soapbox now, as well. ;)

DGK

How do you do this? I know a lot of people get video from all types of sources, but I’ve always been concerned about my PC picking up viruses, etc. I presume some sites are known to be OK, but how do you know? Is there a forum or tutorial that can provide the basics?

Thanks in advance.

Hi Mike,

http://www.xtvi.com/all_tv_shows/ is a very good source of TV show torrents.

There is a free program for both PC and Mac called ted you can read about and download here: http://www.ted.nu/index.php

isohunt.com and demonoid.com are also good sources of torrents.

I have never had a virus on my Macs, but I imagine you would be safe as long as you have a good antivirus app installed on your PC.

I have been told to make sure the files I download end in .avi; apparently those ending in .wmv or compressed into .rar files can contain viruses or just junk and not the file you actually want. No actual experience, just passing on what I have heard about those two file formats.

Just download a free bit torrent client and you will be good to go. I use Transmission but am not sure if they have a Windows version or not.

Basic info here - http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/peersharing/a/torrenthandbook.htm

Hope this helps. :)

Sorry for derailing the thread. :o

DGK: You are where I am on this. I agree totally.

If they want to send a copy-once flag, I don't mind as I do time-shifting to watch once, then erase. But I now believe the no signal picture I got originally from the new DVD/VCR recorder had to be Copy Never.....on a national network ABC. A crime I still say.
So I will check on how reliable they are making our recorders.

Your father-in-law I believe can still use that Sony..with a Video Filter..to record. Not as easy as just using the recorder would have been..but unless what is going on is stopped (stop Copy Never on regular programs and commercials), our choices on what to do are made for us. We try to do the right thing...so should the industry.
When they make our choices for us, they will have to learn to live with the results. We are not stupid consumers. That is the lesson for them to learn.

I see we are on the SAME soapbox. I feel totally in your position. I do splurge and get Netflix but I draw the line at all the fees I see trying to come from the industry. Yes, I want to use my own recorder. It is still possible right now..just not easy. I hope I am wrong that the copy protection flag will only be Copy Never signal.
Thank goodness there is an answer for that but it would be easier to just not have to deal with a "never" on a TV show, etc. just like you are describing.

I didn't know there are other brands of recorders that ignore the protection..you said your father-in-law got a different brand that allows copying that Sony doesn't. Do you mind my asking what brand/machine that is?

If they want to send a copy-once flag, I don't mind as I do time-shifting to watch once, then erase. But I now believe the no signal picture I got originally from the new DVD/VCR recorder had to be Copy Never.....on a national network ABC. A crime I still say.
So I will check on how reliable they are making our recorders.
I don't know what type of discs you're using for timeshifting, but if -R or +R, those won't allow rec of copy-once programs.

However, your Toshibas (560 and 660) have VR-mode recording with -RW and +RW discs. Many -RW/+RW discs can be formatted in VR-mode, which allows rec of copy-once programs (check pkg specs on discs for CPRM note). Check your manual and see if formatting -RW discs is automatically in VR-mode or if you have to set it to do that? The specs show +RW are always in VR mode so no special formatting reqd.

On the Pios, formatting -RW discs for VR-mode is the default, but you can set it for either VR or Video in a menu. The Pio also allows formatting of -R discs for VR-mode, but of course not the ideal disc for just timeshifting.

I didn't know there are other brands of recorders that ignore the protection..you said your father-in-law got a different brand that allows copying that Sony doesn't. Do you mind my asking what brand/machine that is?

Sony recorders are the most sensitive of the major brands, and will often "see" a flag where there isn't really one. They are almost useless for any timeshifting*. That's why no one recommends Sony here.

Other brands aren't that bad, but they vary in terms of sensitivity. Citibear or some other recording guru can probably give you the skinny on which does what.


*edit: Actually, they're pretty much useless for recording in general. There was a user here who tried to copy some stuff that clearly had no copy protection (surveillance tapes, I think) and the Sony recorder he had barfed on recording them.

I've never had a problem with either of my Panasonic recorders. I mainly time-shift from Comcast cable and mainly use DVD-RAM discs. The EZ17 has a QAM tuner & records the clear QAM channels. The ES20 is connected to a Comcast Motorola HD STB via an S-Video connection and so far it has recorded everything I wanted. Maybe I'm just lucky with Comcast or perhaps the Pannys are properly handling flags. IOW not seeing one that is not there. Or it's the RAM discs.

I didn't know there are other brands of recorders that ignore the protection..you said your father-in-law got a different brand that allows copying that Sony doesn't. Do you mind my asking what brand/machine that is?

I believe he has a Panasonic? Sorry I'm just not sure which one he's using now. I have a Panasonic, myself, that is able to record off of TV without troubles so far, thankfully, and I recently got a Magnavox with HDD (hard drive) which I got to replace the cable company's DVR that is also able to record off of TV. So far it's worked well for what I want it to do.

Thanks for the tip -- I'll have to look into that filter for use with the Sony...it would make him happy to be able to use it. At the time he bought it, he paid quite a lot, and it's never been of much use, which makes it all the more frustrating as it cost so much at the time.

DGK

If they want to send a copy-once flag, I don't mind as I do time-shifting to watch once, then erase. But I now believe the no signal picture I got originally from the new DVD/VCR recorder had to be Copy Never.....on a national network ABC. A crime I still say.
So I will check on how reliable they are making our recorders.You seem to have some confusion as to the proper function of the copy-once vs. copy-never flags and how they relate to recording equipment. Copy-once (CO) is the most common flag found on cable. Nearly all HDD recorders will allow the recording of a CO flagged program to the HDD for time-shifting. The restrictions come into play when you try to dub that program off to removable media. The CO flag demands that only a single copy of the program be in existence at one time. Therefore only a recorder that supports CPRM media and is CPRM compliant will be able to dub the recording from the HDD to the CPRM media. Since only one copy can be in existence, the CPRM compliant recorder will then erase the copy from the recorders HDD. CPRM media is encrypted and cannot be "duplicated". The only media that supports CPRM is DVD-RAM and DVD-RW, written in -VR mode (not to be confused with the +VR mode used by the funai recorders). But, more importantly the recorder must be capable of supporting CPRM on either of these media. All Panasonic recorders are CPRM-compliant on DVD-RAM, only. You can transfer a CO program freely between HDD and DVD-RAM on any Panasonic recorder -- but only 1 copy will exist at any time. Not all Pioneer recorders support DVD-RAM but are capable of writing DVD-RW in -VR mode for CPRM compatibility. Funai recorders built around +VR (philips, magnavox, etc.) do not support CPRM media and are not capable of dubbing a program flagged as CO to removable media.

If you are recording direct to disk, only a CPRM compliant recorder, recording to it's chosen CPRM media (RAM or -RW), will be able to record a CO flagged program. If you are trying to record direct to disk on +/-R or +RW media or on a non-CPRM compliant recorder, you will fail to record a CO flagged program and may incorrectly interpret it as being flagged as copy-never. Of currently available recorders, only Panasonic recorders recording to DVD-RAM are capable of recording a CO flagged program direct to disk.

All this appears most common on subscription TV services. By FCC regulations broadcast flags are not allowed on OTA transmissions. It is unknown why DVD recorder makers don't simply ignore any broadcast flags on OTA transmissions the way TiVo does.

I give the Sony DVD Recorder is going back. Argh

Hi Mike,

http://www.xtvi.com/all_tv_shows/ is a very good source of TV show torrents.

There is a free program for both PC and Mac called ted you can read about and download here: http://www.ted.nu/index.php

isohunt.com and demonoid.com are also good sources of torrents.

I have never had a virus on my Macs, but I imagine you would be safe as long as you have a good antivirus app installed on your PC.

I have been told to make sure the files I download end in .avi; apparently those ending in .wmv or compressed into .rar files can contain viruses or just junk and not the file you actually want. No actual experience, just passing on what I have heard about those two file formats.

Just download a free bit torrent client and you will be good to go. I use Transmission but am not sure if they have a Windows version or not.

Basic info here - http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/peersharing/a/torrenthandbook.htm

Hope this helps. :)

Sorry for derailing the thread. :o


Thanks for the information. I'll check it all out.

I find torrents to be unbelieveably S-L-O-W. Using my Rapidshare Premium account (about $10/month) and the right sources of the videos I want to watch has been much better for me (1 - 1.6MB/sec. DL speed). Also, because of all the litigation, many torrents search engines have shut down. If all I want is my weekly UK TV fix, that can now be obtained within 10 - 20 minutes of my time. I've never had to worry about the avi files having a virus but my anti-virus software would probably catch it right away if there was a problem. Also, the files I want are usually in RAR format (same as Usenet) and the software I use (JDownloader) automatically puts the file back together for you. That's very handy.

Lets not forget, though, the torrent thing is not everybody's cup of tea. If you prefer the "old" routine of having a dedicated recorder attached to your television, torrents blow, for that matter even websites like Hulu or ABC blow. The web is the web, nothing is ever EVER simple direct or always reliable when using it. If you're the type thats glued to their iPod and youTube all day, going the torrent/web delivery route will be second nature to you. But if you're just now joining us after your old VCR failed, you might prefer to find a workable DVD recorder or a TiVO.

Yes, many 5 year olds navigate the torrent sites with ease. Its also true many 45 year olds look at the torrent sites and sit dumbfounded with "WTF?" expressions on their faces. I wouldn't place too many bets on the percentage of population that can successfully join two or three torrent segments to create a complete show. (If one more friend/relative calls me over to do this for them I'm going to cancel their net service.)

I do not personally know anyone who uses torrents. It seems a lot of people look at Internet video and if I built/bought an HTPC the two would obviously work together. Unfortunately HTPCs seem to have their share of problems, from reading their forum. But most DVD recorders are not bug free either.

I’ve watched a few programs on Hulu, etc. using my HDTV as a PC monitor. It was OK in a pinch and better than missing an episode of something. Maybe with a faster Internet connection and/or better PC graphics using HDMI the picture might be better, but I doubt it’s going to be as good as Comcast HD or OTA HD.

Every 6 months I end up calling Comcast and getting some kind of promo package. I’d like to go strictly OTA, but there’s a few channels or programs on cable that I would miss. So I keep hanging on.

Hulu to me is great as a supplement to cable TV, and if you have a Popcorn Hour or other media streamer, you don't have to be tied to the computer (there's a third party app that will stream it through a PH.) I wouldn't use it as my sole source of content, though, especially if you already have a DVR. Lack of HD content, as said, is also a turn off.

I don't know anyone who uses torrents as their sole content source, but I know a few who use it like a Hulu, but don't want to wait a week. The east coast generally seeds right after a show has aired (or maybe during) so it often beats the broadcast on the west coast.

many 45 year olds look at the torrent sites and sit dumbfounded with "WTF?" expressions on their faces.

Where did you meet my brother? :)

I find torrents to be unbelieveably S-L-O-W.

I guess it depends on what you are used to. I just let it download in the background or overnight and then watch it whenever I want. I'm not one of those instant gratification types. :)


It's not for everyone, but it works for me.

I am a timeshifter and want to stay that way. I have read about analog/digital, copy protection, etc. I just set up a Toshiba 660 dvd/vcr (normally just use VCRS for timeshift).

My surprise was: I have cable and last night I went through the channels after setting up. ABC (Channel 13 here) was a black screen and said "Protected Program by NR". My older VCRS all got the channel but not this new recorder. I consider ABC being an OTA channel as free to copy. I saw in the TV guide it was the NBA finals my Toshiba would not show me on the TV but my regular TV cable had it, my other VCRs had it.

I have suspected all free tv is going to be copyprotected, like killing the golden goose. If I was at work and wanted to tape that game to see when I got home....well, I would be furious. I tried to tape what was on the screen with another VCR and it showed a black screen, "no signal", and did not show the copy protected wording...switch back to the Toshiba and the words are still there. Looks like new tuners will not be working when no one knows if a commercial or a simple TV program will be "protected". I know the idea is we cannot copy anything and must pay to watch every minute of our free TV. I'm still fighting that idea. Anyone else notice this new type of protection?

I don't know if that was due to a CPRM flag or not. I will be checking an antenna connection I can use to see if all free OTA channels will be getting copy protected.

Can't watch what you can't copy...including commercials. I assume advertisers don't mind that? Don't like what I see at all as far as free TV channels or cable I am paying for.
I have other things to try on this but just wondering if others are noticing regular TV channels are now acting like PPV? Will post updates as I find out more about DVD recorders. By the way, the DVD/VCR....the VCR had the same black picture and words...so that analog signal was turned off also.
>> Toshiba put out a firmware update last year for this particular & troublesome DVD recorder, the firmware update now allows recording by the QAM and ATSC tuners; give them a call and ask for it... It should be free if its still under warranty<<
>Its firmware update DVR650FWR2 version RXK8A141<

I still gifted it away because of unreliable timer recordings and other buggy chit; like not being able to output 4:3 letterbox [onto a 4:3tv] of 16:9 channels.
.
....EDIT; my bad I mistook the model number & thought it was the same as mine/// mine is the 650 / / / But either way give Toshiba a call; there could be an update for it....

sorry for the delay in answers from May 31. On 6/1 I went to the ER and am now getting back up to speed.

Waco: I have been using just VCRs for time-shifting. I am just now starting to see about DVD recording from TV. (I have only burned a Dvd Video on my PC (and Music CDs).
That's my experience so far.

The Toshibas say you must choose between VR or Video modes for -RW. Auto-format is: DVD-R in Video Mode. DVD+r/+RW in +VR mode. And they do say the VF modes allow Copy-once recording. I understand the DVD structure in Video Mode. I first plan to record on "plus" discs and "minus" discs to see the file structure results (using my PC to look at them).

What I am afraid I will find out on copy protection is that there will be no copy once flags, only copy never (I won't rule out finding ultra-sensitivity mentioned in this topic.)

One thing I found interesting is: My PC Liteon DVD Recorded copied a DVD Video movie on a +R in Video Mode.
But the Toshibas only allow a +VR maode on that disc, The Liteon DVD played in all my players (mostly Sony ones) okay.

Thanks for the information. I will print it out and add it to my information library on DVD recording.

Tulpa:

What you said about Sonys seeing a flag that is not there, makes me wonder if Toshibas do the same.

From what I am reading about Sonys...their players have worked fine for me. I do have their VCRs but the only standalone (vs PC) DVD is what I just bought...the Toshibas.

I find I am coming into this late and the selection is almost
non-existent. I just took what was complained about the least..and that wasn't easy.

Thanks for your reply.

Thanks for the info on Panasonics. We can never have too much information about any Brand...good and/or bad.

DGK: Hope the tip and the Filter works. I believe it will. At least it is worth a try. Thanks for more info on Panasonic.
I had a good one back in the 1980's But it broke down eventually. Not until many years later.

Thanks for the information. I have printed it out to study.
I'm not sure where the confusion is. I am only right now talking about DVD standalone recorders and what they are doing re the Flag. I am not talking about HDD cause that has different information. I understand the process of copy once and erase off a HDD...that is exactly why I have chosen to tackle time-shifting with a standalone. I do not like have anyone reaching through the Internet and erasing my HDD. Leaves things open for mischief.

You mention the copy once flag most common on cable. My initial checking of a DVD recorder was simply to see the cable channels the tuner was getting off my analog cable.
When I saw ABC being blacked out with the words "Program protected by NR", and all the other channels okay, I switched to a VCR input tuner on my Sony VCR and ABC was there perfectly with no black out.

Now to me a copy once would mean I should be able to VIEW the channel the tuner is tuning. That is what was prevented by looking at the DVD recorder tuner. I was not recording, did not have a blank disc in the recorder...all I was doing was I had just set up the machine and had the tuner scan my cable for channels and then I used the DVD remote to up channels to see the picture quality I was getting. So to see ABC blacked out from even viewing..something is out of wack.

Once I have the experience of recording to all DVD modes and see my results...maybe once the dust settles on digital changeover ...I may look into HDD for DVD recording but if the only way I can record is if someone is controlling the erasing on MY HDD...I may be forced to stop timeshifting and stop watching a lot of TV shows I might otherwise be watching.

It sounds like from you are saying is that cable shows with copy once can only be recorded on DVD-RW in -VR mode, and all other recording choices are forbidden (video mode for more playability). In other words, with copy once you can only record on a CPRM recorder and only on a DVD-RW disc written in -VR mode. Nothing else will work or so that's what the industry wants. What they want and what the consumer needs and has always had before may conflict. Thank goodness there are people on the consumer side who know how to help.

So back to the original idea: a standalone DVD recorder should be able to copy a program with a copy once flag, since not having the program on a HDD, it truly is being copied once. So to black it out completely as protected I still say is a crime. I pay for ABC on cable. I get ABC on antenna free. Why should it be copy protected from viewing once...at all? Maybe this recorder is ultra sensitive..I still have to check that out. But I have seen that black screen on other channels (on this recorder) while flipping..one other time. Eventually I will pin it down to the recorder and/or the cable company's method of flagging.

I know the purpose of all this hassle is to see DVDs of TV shows but if I can't watch a new show when I am able to, there is no way I would buy a season of a show I have no idea if I like or not. Actually, I can't think of hardly any TV shows I WOULD buy a season of. But I guess there are always buyers and if so, there will always be sellers.

Why I was not allowed to view a national network is the mystery for me. I could watch it on cable TV, antenna TV, and all my other VCR tuners, but not on the Toshiba DVD/VCR recorder tuner.

I understand what you said about thinking something was copy never when trying to record on a non CPRM machine and media but I was not doing that...I was seeing the tuner picture for ABC but was not allowed to see the picture at all which is why I thought apparently since the tuner is in a DVD recorder...copy never got applied so the screen was black except for the copy protection wording.

If it was coming through as copy once...I should have been able to view it on the standalone's tuner, I would think.

Thanks for the info. I keep a library of notes and when I try out something I look at all the information I have accumulated first.

Comcast here now has blurbs on many of the analog channels above 30 saying you'll need at least a digital converter box after the 24th. The same channels in digital on my LG4200a and my Philips have no warning messages yet so hoping that means they intend to leave them there in the clear, which they should if their DTA boxes do not include a descrambler or whatever.

Thanks CopRock for some things to look for while using this DVD recorder. The problem I saw was trying to view an ABC show on the DVD NTSC tuner which my cable company was using to continue sending analog to my TV.

I will keep that firmware in mind when I check out the QAM and ATSC tuners which I have not done yet. Hopefully if that was a 650 fix, it should be incorporated already into the 660. Not sure.
Thanks again.

So back to the original idea: a standalone DVD recorder should be able to copy a program with a copy once flag, since not having the program on a HDD, it truly is being copied once. So to black it out completely as protected I still say is a crime. I pay for ABC on cable. I get ABC on antenna free. Why should it be copy protected from viewing once...at all?

The "copy once" flag allows recording to hard drive and then when the recording is dubbed to DVD the hard drive recording is deleted. The dubbing process probably embeds a "no copy" flag in the dubbed program on the DVD.

Here are some thoughts/options/workarounds. The standalone recorder channel scans may be run for antenna or cable. Use the cable scan if not using a cable box. Connect a CECB for antenna reception to an input. If using a cable box connect it to one input and scan for antenna channels and/or connect a CECB to another input.

Dartman: You mentioned Comcast and I just read a good article on the Net from PC World. I went back and found it so I could put a link here. I printed it out for myself but I see by you wondering about your cable company, Comcast, that this link can benefit others so I am posting it here. (By the way, mine is Cox Cable who is no angel but I think they may keep their word of no funny business with channels until 3 years from now).

Here is the link: I urge you to read it and maybe print it out
for future reference. Gives you an idea of what is up.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/165545/how_the_unknown_digital_tv_transition_could_screw_you.html

I did make sure the 2 Toshibas I bought both had 3 tuners so I would not have to use any boxes with them. I did get the CECB boxes last year in case I want to use them with my older VCRs to tape the major networks off an antenna when the time comes my VCRs cannot tape off my cable, which now they do.

I have connected 1 new Toshiba VCR/DVD recorder combo to cable and tuned it to cable channels, and while doing a channel up/down with the remote was surprised to see on the TV input A/V screen that ABC had a protected program. My older VCRS are connected to the same cable signal and had the unprotected program. The other thing I want to try is connect the other DVD recorder to my antenna (the recorder has an ATSC tuner) to see if OTA channels are being blacked out also, by the Toshibas.

Eventually, I will be able to watch digital channels in the future on the TV but also want to be able to VCR analog tape them (maybe with a CECB box) and/or record for timeshifting to a DVD temporarily. The idea is to keep the analog "hole" open for timeshifting without flags...just taping like I do now for later viewing. So far, I see ways to be able to do this.

Ironic isn't it that the TVs we buy now will not get cable channels like the present analog TVs do. Cable wants more control (greed). So once all cable, etc goes all digital, everyone will need a box unless Tru2way appears and even then it is a slot you have to rent a cable card to use. Again,
more and more income to cable monopolies. So when cable finally allows Tru2way, the TV sets have to be built to use that cable slot and so everyone who bought digital TV and discarded analog TV...will then have to buy new digital TVs if they want something like the old cable ready sets..except I see nothing but "fees" for everything in the future. So the least they can do is not fight timeshifters.

Off my soapbox now. :)

Well that's what they're doing now with the crappy "free"digital converter boxes and DTA's. Many folks will get pissed off and buy the better DVR boxes and maybe be forced to add extra outlets, so more money for cable, and cable is buying much of the old analog rf we are loosing so kinda a double standard.
We need to let the FCC know that we don't approve of their plan to try and get approval to scramble everything seeing how it's now digital or some such excuse. And making new recorders that are so sensitive to flags and DRM crap that they refuse to record open channels isn't helping either.
I don't want to loose all this digital cable and OTA gear I have now because they found a good excuse to shut me out and make me buy/rent more gear to do what I can now without their extra equipment and fees.

I did make sure the 2 Toshibas I bought both had 3 tuners so I would not have to use any boxes with them. I did get the CECB boxes last year in case I want to use them with my older VCRs to tape the major networks off an antenna when the time comes my VCRs cannot tape off my cable, which now they do.

I have connected 1 new Toshiba VCR/DVD recorder combo to cable and tuned it to cable channels, and while doing a channel up/down with the remote was surprised to see on the TV input A/V screen that ABC had a protected program. My older VCRS are connected to the same cable signal and had the unprotected program. The other thing I want to try is connect the other DVD recorder to my antenna (the recorder has an ATSC tuner) to see if OTA channels are being blacked out also, by the Toshibas.

Eventually, I will be able to watch digital channels in the future on the TV but also want to be able to VCR analog tape them (maybe with a CECB box) and/or record for timeshifting to a DVD temporarily. The idea is to keep the analog "hole" open for timeshifting without flags...just taping like I do now for later viewing. So far, I see ways to be able to do this . . .

This recent post of mine has observations concerning a situation similar to yours:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16631458#post16631458

My (July 2007) Magnavox H2080MW8 and (April 2007) Sylvania ZV450SL8 models are, like your Toshibas, manufactured by Funai. Perhaps there are sample-specific variations among similar products.

microladyusa, there are so many posts now to this thread that I'm a little confused whether you have already done the test I'm about to suggest: if so, my apologies, but I just thought of this and was curious what your results might be:

I think you mentioned you did pick up one or two gov't-subsidized ATSC converter boxes for possible future use with your old VCRs. What I'm curious to know is, have you tried hooking one of these converters up to one of your problematic Toshibas, via line inputs? With an antenna feeding the box, and the box bypassing the Toshibas own tuner, I was wondering whether you would still get the "blank screen of death". One of my friends has a very old Phillips DVD recorder, analog tuner only (like a vcr). On a number of occasions, his recorder shut down reacting to alleged copy-prohibit signals on the analog FOX and NBC broadcasts. After he attached a Zenith DTT901 converter box, his Phillips stopped shutting down in the middle of a broadcast. I wonder if these converters might ignore or filter the copy restrict signals that get picked up by analog or ATSC tuners integrated into the recorders themselves? (I've had a Zenith DTT901 hooked up since December to my own Pioneer DVD/HDD recorder, and it hasn't been restricted from recording anything yet.)

You said:
I don't want to loose all this digital cable and OTA gear I have now because they found a good excuse to shut me out and make me buy/rent more gear to do what I can now without their extra equipment and fees.

AMEN to that..that is EXACTLY how I feel about all of this and if there is ANY way to keep close to what we have now...if I can't find it, it won't be from lack of trying or asking others.
What benefits one consumer can benefit all.

That's why I spent the cash to get these 2 new recorders to really tell what we are up against because my old VCRs have no problem so that doesn't help for the future.

I read your thread and it is very interesting. I like you were recording from 2 different signal sources as a comparison.

So far, I see George55 had a problem recording cable PBS with his Philips 3576. Yet you recorded the same show from 1. OTA and 2. cable ready recorder...with no problem. Your recorders were Sylvania and Magnavox. And you pointed out that your 2 are Funai manufactured as is apparently the Toshiba, who showed me Program Protected on a channel I was only viewing through the Toshiba's tuner.

Isn't Philips from Funai also? Not sure. I have one Philips VCR that works fine. But we are talking DVD recorders.
I'm getting a good library of things that are happening, hopefully will help a future solution.

Thanks for the input.

I printed out your suggestion for testing. No I have not done that as yet. I haven't even hooked up my CECB boxes cause I was checking the Toshiba tuner on cable and then was going to try it on the Antenna. I have to hook up the 2nd DVD recorder to the Antenna so I will have 2 sources, and yes, that is an interesting suggestion about bypassing the DVD ATSC tuner and only using the CECB ATSC tuner to see if that would stop a flag.

I know the cable sent a flag through the Toshiba I have hooked up to cable cause I saw that one. I have to hook up the other to see IF there is protection OTA through the Toshiba itself, then I would try the box setup you suggested to see if there is a bypass that can be used.

And to everyone replying........thanks for all the input. I have a number of ideas to try and will report anything that works or not work. It is beginning to look like maybe the recorders may be the sensitive problem..that's a bummer to think about.

Keep the ideas coming.................

Thanks for the information. I have printed it out to study. . .From everything you have written about your desires, proposed usage and frustrations over what doesn't work, you really are a candidate for a TiVo HD. The TiVo HD is dual tuner and cable card compatible (the first M-card is usually free from your cable co and serves both tuners) so you immediately get to record and time-shift everything you pay for. A little talked about feature of the TiVo HD is the fact it has 2 RF inputs -- one for cable and one for an OTA antenna. So for someone like you who wants to use both, this box does it all. The TiVo will seamlessly integrate the OTA channels with the cable channels and the TiVo guide will give full information for all the channels. You won't have to worry where the signal is coming from, just select the shows, record and enjoy.

Unless you really like spending time getting frustrated piecing together disparate boxes that may or may not do what you want and trying to figure out how to make it all work, look into the TiVo HD thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11126048#post11126048). A TiVo can be purchased without any monthly fees.

And currently Tivo has a great offer on the popular Tivo HD. For $499 (https://www3.tivo.com/store/addpackage.do?sku=PPLT03&prm=PCAY4KDHVR3S) you can purchase a Tivo HD and lifetime service so you won't ever have a monthly fee(I think this offer expires Fathers Day). If you ever want to archive off the Tivo you can go several ways, from a PC to just a simple line input standalone DVD recorder.

Thanks for the TIVO suggestions. Yes, I do like to research to see what I can do for myself. I am not ready for TIVO. I did read in PC World, Aug 08..."The Tivo Series 3 and TiVO HD digital video recorders use CableCards which allow them to decrypt and record cable programming. Jim Denny, vice president of product marketing for TiVO, confirms that existing TiVos won't work with Tru2Way cards, but he says that his company is "looking into" using Tru2Way technology.

To know what the future choices will actually be, I think, means waiting for the "dust to settle". Business does not want free tv anymore and until they figure how the best way to screw the customers...we can only work with what we have and hope we can beat the future. I have always been very much into electronics...TV fixing, VCRs, PCs, etc., so it does intrigue me to try and figure out a work around.
I have a couple of "last resorts" that I am trying to avoid using unless I have to, to be able to do what I do now with analog. Depends on how much business plays by the rules. The broadcast flag was ruled against being used (a victory for the consumer) but businesses are ignoring that since the flag check was built into DVD Recorders before the ruling came down.

Back to my test results: Sunday I had the Toshiba 660 VCR/DVD hooked up to cable and had the following happen:
12:25PM NBC Protected, 12:30 PM NBC Okay
2:55 PM CBS Protected, 3:00 PM CBS Okay,
3:55 PM NBC protected, 3:59 PM NBC Okay.
4:25 PM NBC, CBS, ABC okay
4:47 PM ABC Protected "NBA Countdown" and thereafter the whole NBA game was also protected.

At the same time I had the Toshiba 560 DVD Recorder hooked up to OTA, and saw no protection anywhere. In fact,
I recorded the NBA game just to be sure that by seeing the TV picture I would be able to record. The DVD played fine on my Sony player and on my Toshiba player.

Result: it appears the 660 NTSC tuner is getting lots of flags from my cable company.
The 560 DVD Recorder's ATSC tuner has no problem at this time with any copy protection.

I will reverse the recorders and put the 660 on OTA and the 560 on Cable and see if both Toshibas on cable show a black screen with "Program Protected". If so, then I will see what a filter will do.

OTA is fine for network shows to tape or record on DVD but I pay for extended Basic Cable for USA, TNT, etc., and they have some good series to watch (once) so I would like to bypass any cable flag if possible, in order to record what I am paying to be able to watch.

Frankly, I dread cable going digital in the future because I saw their price list for cable and there is a special fee for every tiny item and it probably would double my cable bill,
so anything I can find to avoid paying a lot of fees all the time, I will look into it. It is worth my time to do so.

Update done.

And that what most of us are trying to do, avoid paying extra for what we can do now and they're slowly trying to take that away from us, and the digital switchover is helping them do it it seems. The Tivo sounds great but I don't want to pay even more just to use more of my cable services even if the lifetime tivo is a one time fee. If I did that the next thing they'd want is me to sign up for the digital HD package, costing me even more a month then I pay now. Problem is I like the fast internet and I like all the extended basic cable shows so I stick with them for now. I did get them to shave 50 bucks a month off my total bill with just one call and it will last at least 6 months, maybe a year.
If they'll drop your bill just by making a quick call maybe they are overcharging quite a bit and don't want to loose customers to other services.
They may shoot themselves in the foot as the do it yourself user with all this gear drops them if they keep playing their games.

. . . I have a couple of "last resorts" that I am trying to avoid using unless I have to, to be able to do what I do now with analog . . .

Result: it appears the 660 NTSC tuner is getting lots of flags from my cable company.

The 560 DVD Recorder's ATSC tuner has no problem at this time with any copy protection.

I will reverse the recorders and put the 660 on OTA and the 560 on Cable and see if both Toshibas on cable show a black screen with "Program Protected". If so, then I will see what a filter will do.

OTA is fine for network shows to tape or record on DVD but I pay for extended Basic Cable for USA, TNT, etc., and they have some good series to watch (once) so I would like to bypass any cable flag if possible, in order to record what I am paying to be able to watch.

Frankly, I dread cable going digital in the future because I saw their price list for cable and there is a special fee for every tiny item and it probably would double my cable bill, so anything I can find to avoid paying a lot of fees all the time, I will look into it. It is worth my time to do so . . .

For about one month (December 2006/January 2007) I attempted to use a Funai-manufactured SV2000 analog tuner VCR/DVD combo recorder. That DVD recorder seemed to find “copy protection” with just about anything I attempted to record from the Comcast STB, directly from the Comcast coax or when I attempted to copy to DVD my home-recorded (circa. 1990) videotapes. (My Panasonic combo recorders had no difficulty copying the very same videotapes.) When I described this situation to Funai Customer Service they determined that the SV2000 recorder must be defective. They suggested that I return the recorder to WalMart. I followed that advice, taking a refund rather than an exchange.

With the difficulties you’ve had I suggest that you call Toshiba—you may find yourself talking to Funai—to find out what remedy they propose.

My current Funai-manufactured Philips and Magnavox recorders as well as my Panasonic recorders seem not to have “copy protection” issues.

I’ve pondered if more of my ramblings may appreciably advance this discussion. Since you commented "I have a couple of 'last resorts' that I am trying to avoid using unless I have to, to be able to do what I do now with analog" the observations that follow may have something to do with your "last resorts."

I have Comcast cable. I currently have nine DVD or HDD/DVD recorders set up to record from Comcast, six of them "enslaved" to a Comcast Motorola DTC700 cable box (either directly or through RF pass throughs), one "enslaved" to a Comcast Pace DC50X DTA and two connected directly to the Comcast coax feed. The Motorola DTC700 is an entry level "digital" STB that provides only analog RF and composite outputs. The Pace DC50X DTA provides only an analog RF output. All seven of the Philips, Magnavox and Panasonic recorders ("enslaved" to the DTC700 and DC50X boxes) have "digital" tuners. Since these recorders record analog signals through RF and composite inputs these recorders are not recording "digital signals" where the "flag" may prevent recording of copyrighted material. Almost all the recordings made with these seven recorders are from Turner Classic Movies, an analog network that Comcast locates in their premium "digital" tiers of service. Comcast encodes (scrambles) TCM so a Comcast proprietary "digital" STB is required for viewing/recording this "analog" network.

I started recording TCM to DVD in September 2005 with an analog tuner Panasonic. Since that time I have used all my "analog tuner" and "analog/digital tuner" Panasonics to record (at one time or another) from TCM through analog channel 3 or analog line inputs. (I currently own sixteen functional Panasonics from the 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 model years.) Two of my Funai-manufactured "digital tuner" Philips and Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders are also set up to record from TCM (as an analog signal source) just as are the Panasonics.

I have never found a "copy protection" notice from my Panasonic, Philips or Magnavox recorders when viewing or recording from TCM.

Two of my "digital tuner" Philips and Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders are connected directly to the Comcast coax cable. These machines record "digital signals" through their built-in clear QAM tuners. I have yet to encounter a “copy protection” notice when viewing or recording a variety of analog and digital signals through these machines' NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners or line inputs. Perhaps I’ve just been “lucky.”

Comcast does have other STBs that provide "digital outputs" i.e., HDMI and component, but there are no current general consumer recorders that have those inputs.

I also have one analog tuner Panasonic recorder enslaved to a Zenith DTT901 CECB for OTA reception. There has been no "copy protection" issue with that combination.

And currently Tivo has a great offer on the popular Tivo HD. For $499 (https://www3.tivo.com/store/addpackage.do?sku=PPLT03&prm=PCAY4KDHVR3S) you can purchase a Tivo HD and lifetime service so you won't ever have a monthly fee(I think this offer expires Fathers Day). If you ever want to archive off the Tivo you can go several ways, from a PC to just a simple line input standalone DVD recorder.


I heard about the Tivo $499 Fathers Day special, but IIRC someone said is was only for existing customers. If that's the case, then it appears the regular price for the Tivo HD is $299 plus $399 lifetime, for a total of $698. That's a lot of money to watch TV. And you still have to pay Comcast for their programming, presuming you want to you use them. Where does it end? I guess with free OTA HD. I keep thinking about dropping cable, but I have really become use to watching almost all my programs in HD. I just keep fighting with Comcast every 6 months for a new promo price.

By FCC regulations broadcast flags are not allowed on OTA transmissions.

This is true for the "over the air" channels rebroadcast on cable too, correct? I was about to say this in this thread, but I don't have a citation for it.

I do know that others have said they have successfully worked with their cable companies to get *mis-set* flags fixed. (This was on tivocommunity btw, and I actually think you may be mistaken about Tivos ignoring the flags for 'broadcast' channels.)

I heard about the Tivo $499 Fathers Day special, but IIRC someone said is was only for existing customers. If that's the case, then it appears the regular price for the Tivo HD is $299 plus $399 lifetime, for a total of $698.Anyone can take advantage of the $499 offer. You just have to use this link (https://www3.tivo.com/store/addpackage.do?sku=PPLT03&prm=PCAY4KDHVR3S). Note this promotion expires June 20.

Once this promo expires, the TiVo costs $250 (Amazon.com) + $399 for lifetime service for new customers.

That's a lot of money to watch TV. And you still have to pay Comcast for their programming, presuming you want to you use them. Where does it end? I guess with free OTA HD. I keep thinking about dropping cable, but I have really become use to watching almost all my programs in HD. I just keep fighting with Comcast every 6 months for a new promo price.You can use the TivoHD with cable, OTA HD, or both. It's your choice.

If you currently pay for a cable DVR, you can knock the "HDTV STB," "DVR Rental," and "DVR Service" fees off your cable bill. Those fees total from $15/mo to $25/mo, depending on your provider.

Depending on what your cable company charges, it could still take years to recoup the $499 purchase price. Most people buy a TiVo for cable because they want improved functionality, reliability, usability, and storage expansion. Or because they want the option to use [free] OTA instead of (or in addition to) cable at some point.

Yes, I do like to research to see what I can do for myself. I am not ready for TIVO. I did read in PC World, Aug 08..."The Tivo Series 3 and TiVO HD digital video recorders use CableCards which allow them to decrypt and record cable programming. Jim Denny, vice president of product marketing for TiVO, confirms that existing TiVos won't work with Tru2Way cards, but he says that his company is "looking into" using Tru2Way technology.
The author of that article sounds a bit confused. There's no such thing as "true2way cards."

Future true2way devices use the existing CableCards -- the same cards used in a TiVo -- but they add a bidirectional hardware receiver and a Java virtual machine to run the cable company's software. By running the cable company's software and interface, the box is able to access services that TiVo [currently] cannot, such as the cable company's On Demand. If you rely the cable company's software, then you gain On Demand, but you give up many of TiVo's benefits, such as the ability to download recordings to your computer so they can be viewed and/or burned to DVD.

The availability of true2way will have no affect on the TiVo's ability to record; its primary function would be to add On Demand support. TiVo has discussed a future design that would run the cable company true2way STB software in the background. Such a product would run the TiVo DVR software and function like existing TiVos, but would add a menu to display the cable company's STB software with the cable company's On Demand interface. Such a product is not expected for another 12-18 months.

There are two issues preventing current TiVos (and other CableCard DVRs like Moxi) from supporting On Demand today. First, they lack the hardware (bidirectional receiver) to send signals -- such as VOD requests -- to your cable company over the coax. Second, cable providers use a number of incompatible VOD systems which can only be accessed by the cable company's software (for now). No "standard" for VOD exists that a CE manufacturer can implement in their own software.

In March, TiVo announced (http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/pressroom/pressreleases/2009/pr2009-03-02b.html) that it would support On Demand with existing equipment later this year. To do that, TiVo is working together with SeaChange -- the largest supplier of VOD systems to the cable industry -- to create software that is compatible with their particular VOD system. They are working with SeaChange to allow VOD requests over IP, which could be sent using the TiVo's network (Internet) connection. TiVo says this functionality will be added to existing high-definition TiVos with a software update, although they have not announced which cable providers will support it. Not every provider uses VOD systems from SeaChange, although Comcast, Cox, and FiOS are among those that do. [Sources: #1 (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=177254&site=cdn), #2 (http://www.lightreading.com/blog.asp?blog_sectionid=419&doc_id=172917&site=cdn), #3 (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=155190&site=cdn)]

This is true for the "over the air" channels rebroadcast on cable too, correct? I was about to say this in this thread, but I don't have a citation for it.Yes, that's correct.

bfdtv,

Thanks for the Tivo link. I'll have to consider it. I hear nothing but praise regarding Tivo. FWIW, Comcast by me charges $15.95/month for their HD DVR. I asked about Tivo & Comcast said they would charge me $1.50/month for 2 CableCards, and I would not be charged the $15.95. Thereby saving me $14.45/month which could be applied toward the Tivo fees, one way or another. However I do watch some of the free HD OnDemand movies, which I understand Tivo cannot access. There's always a trade off it seems. But I will think about that Tivo deal.

Well depending on how much extra their HD service is as well per month then maybe for some of us it would pencil out OK provided we also can afford the 500 upfront for lifetime Tivo.
I have no clue how much extra just adding the hd service without their box would be though I'm sure it's listed on their site somewhere. Right now I can barely afford the regular extended basic I have now so a Tivo is not in my future.

bfdtv,

Thanks for the Tivo link. I'll have to consider it. I hear nothing but praise regarding Tivo. FWIW, Comcast by me charges $15.95/month for their HD DVR. I asked about Tivo & Comcast said they would charge me $1.50/month for 2 CableCards, and I would not be charged the $15.95. Thereby saving me $14.45/month which could be applied toward the Tivo fees, one way or another. However I do watch some of the free HD OnDemand movies, which I understand Tivo cannot access. There's always a trade off it seems. But I will think about that Tivo deal.I've seen that $1.50/month citation before. They give you the first cc for free and charge for any additional ones at $1.50/month. You don't need 2 cable-cards with a TiVo HD, call them again and ask about an M-card. A single M-card handles both tuners and should be provided for free (the first one, anyway). You don't get access to cable's VOD (at least not yet unless your system is SeaChange compatible) but you do get access to various Internet streaming -- i.e. if you have a NetFlix account you can stream all their "watch-instantly" content for free through the TiVo. You get a lot more options with TiVo, and it simply works.

Just a quick note....above it is said FCC does not allow flags on OTA and also applies to cable broadcasts of those same channels.

Interesting...so far the copy protection I am getting from Cox analog cable has ONLY been on OTA channels (the major networks only).

Just a point I wanted to put here as a reminder that it is possible the FCC is being ignored.

I've seen that $1.50/month citation before. They give you the first cc for free and charge for any additional ones at $1.50/month. You don't need 2 cable-cards with a TiVo HD, call them again and ask about an M-card. A single M-card handles both tuners and should be provided for free (the first one, anyway). You don't get access to cable's VOD (at least not yet unless your system is SeaChange compatible) but you do get access to various Internet streaming -- i.e. if you have a NetFlix account you can stream all their "watch-instantly" content for free through the TiVo. You get a lot more options with TiVo, and it simply works.


How does the warranty work with a lifetime subscription? I looked at Tivo's web site and it appears if you have the 3 year plan then parts are warranted for 3 years. But it was not clear to me what happens with the lifetime plan. I was left with the impression parts were not warranted forever, yet I did not see a finite time period either. Any ideas?

How does the warranty work with a lifetime subscription? I looked at Tivo's web site and it appears if you have the 3 year plan then parts are warranted for 3 years. But it was not clear to me what happens with the lifetime plan. I was left with the impression parts were not warranted forever, yet I did not see a finite time period either. Any ideas?bfdtv has posted the details on the TiVo replacements in the TiVo HD forum. Perhaps he will be so kind as to reference his post.

Just a quick note....above it is said FCC does not allow flags on OTA and also applies to cable broadcasts of those same channels.Most of the people who have complained of the problem with OTA have found that the CP signal pops up during a commercial.

I don't think anyone is 100% sure whether it's just something accidental or if it's their intentionally shifty way of getting around having CP in the actual programming.

Just a quick note....above it is said FCC does not allow flags on OTA and also applies to cable broadcasts of those same channels.

Interesting...so far the copy protection I am getting from Cox analog cable has ONLY been on OTA channels (the major networks only).

Just a point I wanted to put here as a reminder that it is possible the FCC is being ignored.There is a strong possibility that there are, in fact, no flags of any kind in your content and that your Toshiba recorders are falsely responding to "phantom" flags -- something in the signal that triggers the DRM circuitry, such as the cut to a commercial break. This is a problem Toshibas are known for.

Rammitinski: I have read reviews where people had a problem with OTA and recording stopping.

Kelson:I also have not ruled out your comment on the Toshiba being wrongly triggered. The 560 was okay on OTA on the same ABC channel that the 660 would not show the picture at all on ABC cable. The 660 VCR taping worked okay where I never saw the Protection screen. I do want to see if the 560 is also jumpy on cable as far as protection. Maybe it is only the 660, which is still under warranty and I will do what has been suggested...call Toshiba and ask about what is going on. If there is no fix and it is Toshiba's problem of seeing a flag where none exists, then I will also try a filter to see if that helps the 660 see the signal correctly.

(Not like there are a lot of choices available right now on a DVD recorder without a HDD). Besides eventually I know the NTSC tuner will be completely obsolete and the ATSC is only for OTA so I didn't want to spend $500 to $800 on recorders whose tuners will be limited use or in the case of NTSC...no use at all. So I "settled" for the Toshiba (didn't know they don't do the mfg at all anymore).

I still haven't ruled out cable playing games with my analog signal. If they mess it up maybe I will buy their digital package so they can
make lots more money...not ready to cave into that one.

I am sorry I got in at the tail end where there are no decent DVD recorders anymore. The Toshiba had the fewest bad reviews of the recorders available. The LG was the worst. The Panasonics that are left did get bad reviews including overheating. I missed the good ones by enjoying my 4 VCRs.

Waiting for some more switches and splitters to set it all up the way I want to.

Well, I just gave up on this. I connected the 660 to the Antenna to check the ATSC OTA tuner and every main channel had the copy protect whereas the 560 showed no protection.

I have to thank CopRock for telling me about the problem with the 650...I researched it and found out people could not record from the ATSC and QAM tuners. I found a great review on it from an Engineer at a TV station who was getting so many complaints about the 650 they bought one and found they could only record one channel..The problem was: there is something called an audio descriptor that is sent as part of the DTV signal. Some stations sent a full descriptor...some send a partial one. All stations that sent the full one could not be recorded as the 650 sees something in there that it interpreted as copy protection. But the stations that send a partial one could be recorded.

So when I hooked my 660 to the OTA ATSC signal and saw all that "copy protection", I figured it was the same problem as the 650, which Toshiba put out a firmware update that fixed it for the 650.

So today I called Toshiba and asked if the 650 firmware would fix the 660..they said No, and when I described the problem..I was told the unit was definitely defective and they will send me another unit in exchange for me sending them this one.

I had read reviews on the 660 and no one had the problem I did. I read good reviews. I did test the machine and saw it dubs VHS to DVD perfectly and easily. I recorded on the VHS from the NTSC tuner for about 20 minutes and it was fine. So the unit will do exactly what I bought it for..as long as the copy protection bug is fixed.

I particularly wanted it for dubbing my VHS tapes but also as another VCR for cable or Antenna without having to use an outside converter box (which I would have to use for my older VCRs once my cable company switches to all digital...in 2012...and I do have 2 boxes waiting for that day).

I contacted the seller first to see if they had others in stock as maybe their others were okay, as I read from reviews on their site. They had no more in stock but I could return it to them and pay a restocking fee. I said no thanks..I will call Toshiba to see what they say since it is under warranty. I told the company I was sorry to say that I do not order from companies if I receive a defective product and they want to charge me to return it. It was my first order with them as it was hard to find VCR/DVD recorders this year and it will be my last. I told Toshiba I hope they check out what they send me cause right now I could not buy their products again (even though the 560 works fine). Buying online I have been lucky, I guess...this is the first defective unit I have purchased out of multiple VCRs, and DVD players.

Will update when I send this out and get the replacement.
I have read replacements have worked out for others so I hope this one does for me. These machines are getting so rare as again we are all pointed in the direction the industries want....not what the consumer may want.

Thanks again for all the suggestions....I was trying everything to avoid sending it back but what CopRock said got me started on reading about the prior model and its problems and I did read people got the firmware and it did solve the problem. That's where I found the engineer's review saying exactly what they found the problem to be...not in the video signal (which is where copy protection usually is) but a flaw in the audio signal that some recorders think is a flag. I wonder how many other brands that people are complaining about problems with recording especially with OTA.....are really this same problem.

Well, I just gave up on this. I connected the 660 to the Antenna to check the ATSC OTA tuner and every main channel had the copy protect whereas the 560 showed no protection . . .

So today I called Toshiba and asked if the 650 firmware would fix the 660..they said No, and when I described the problem..I was told the unit was definitely defective and they will send me another unit in exchange for me sending them this one . . .

I found the engineer's review saying exactly what they found the problem to be...not in the video signal (which is where copy protection usually is) but a flaw in the audio signal that some recorders think is a flag. I wonder how many other brands that people are complaining about problems with recording especially with OTA.....are really this same problem.

In my June 15th post I wrote "With the difficulties you’ve had I suggest that you call Toshiba—you may find yourself talking to Funai—to find out what remedy they propose."

I'm glad your call got some action. Were you speaking with Toshiba or Funai? I hope the replacement machine will provide good service.

A June 20th addition to our household is a Funai-built Magnavox ZV450MW8A NTSC/ATSC/clear QAM combo recorder of August 2008 manufacture. This model may be similar to your Toshiba models. So far this Magnavox performs normally, without any copy protection errors. The similar Funai-built Sylvania ZV450SL8 of April 2007 manufacture, the one with the unreliable QAM tuner, was given to a daughter. She finds this Sylvania satisfactory for her use.

As Funai-built recorders share a number of components I'm curious as to the month/year of manufacture of your Toshiba recorders, especially the problematic 660 model.

A June 20th addition to our household is a Funai-built Magnavox ZV450MW8A NTSC/ATSC/clear QAM combo recorder of August 2008 manufacture. This model may be similar to your Toshiba models. So far this Magnavox performs normally, without any copy protection errors. The similar Funai-built Sylvania ZV450SL8 of April 2007 manufacture, the one with the unreliable QAM tuner, was given to a daughter. She finds this Sylvania satisfactory for her use.If you keep this up, you will have to change your user name to FunaDo.

I heard about the Tivo $499 Fathers Day special, but IIRC someone said is was only for existing customers. If that's the case, then it appears the regular price for the Tivo HD is $299 plus $399 lifetime, for a total of $698. That's a lot of money to watch TV. And you still have to pay Comcast for their programming, presuming you want to you use them. Where does it end? I guess with free OTA HD. I keep thinking about dropping cable, but I have really become use to watching almost all my programs in HD. I just keep fighting with Comcast every 6 months for a new promo price.

??? When the Pioneer 810-H Tivo came out, they were $900.00. with only a 80 gig hard drive, 3-day tvguide, and no network ability. $200 less with a lot more features and a way to handle the digital transition sounds really good to me. I have three of them, but did not pay $900.00 for them. I waited till they were clearanced or e-bayed. Maybe the tivoHd's will not go as low as what I paid, but they still look good IMHO.

DIGADO: Comcast in my area has not seemed to effect my 4 Philips 3455's. Which record the 4 major networks (one for each) and they are still directly connected to the wall and only analog. When we added the Internet bundle, they had to remove all filters. Unsure if that is a mute point with the digital conversion going on. I have noticed on an older Philips 720 there have been a couple of little blue circles with a c in the middle popping up in the lower right corner, but when I do my cutting/edits it goes away. As for using a DTA with my units; is that not what comcast is doing when they send it out in analog over the cable, or would there be a better PQ if I used the DTA's SD channel through the RF or SVI?

Comcast in my area has not seemed to effect my 4 Philips 3455's. Which record the 4 major networks (one for each) and they are still directly connected to the wall and only analog . . . As for using a DTA with my units; is that not what comcast is doing when they send it out in analog over the cable, or would there be a better PQ if I used the DTA's SD channel through the RF or SVI?

Between the setups in my bedroom and home office I have a Motorola DCT700 "digital" converter box as the source for encoded (scrambled) networks such as Turner Classic Movies and the Encore group; and a Pace DC50X Digital Transport Adapter (DTA) as the source for the "new" digital channels that replaced the old "analog" channels in the 32-71 range on June 24th. The DCT700 provides only analog composite and RF outputs; the Pace DC50X provides only an analog RF output.

In the attached photo notice that I've fitted the Motorola DCT700 with composite "y" cables that provide separate feeds to two Panasonic DMR-EZ17 models. The DCT700 RF output feeds the Philips 3575. (The 3575 RF output feeds the Magnavox 2160 in my home office.) The Pace DC50X RF output feeds a third DMR-EZ17 that, in turn feeds an analog TV.

For a more detailed description of the set ups between my bedroom and home office, including photos, see this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16748675#post16748675

DigaDo: I believe I spoke to Toshiba..don't know how one tells the difference but the rep was very knowledgeable, told me to keep everything but the unit and remote and that's what will be shipped to me. Said I tried everything they would have checked.

As far as my Toshiba models: The D-R560 is a standalone DVD recorder with the 3 tuners. It's manufacture date is August 2008.
Have had no problems whatsoever with this one. Not one copy protection indication and it recorded an NBA final game off the Antenna with the ATSC tuner in 16:9 aspect...beautifully.

The Dvd/VCR 660 Toshiba was manufactured November 2008 and has 3 tuners. It works great for dubbing VHS to DVD and recorded a TV program on the VCR okay (I had the TV on watching it to be sure copy protection didn't show up). On analog cable the NTSC tuner has copy protected pop up anytime, not often but anytime is not reliable but when I connected to the ATSC tuner, every main channel, like 3-1, 5-1, 13-1, etc was instantly copy protected. I was suspecting it was more sensitive to DTV for some reason, then I read the engineer report verifying there was a DTV problem with the older model 650, causing the same problem I was having.

Anyway, Monday it will be on its way to TACP in Tennessee. I told the rep I hope what they send me is checked out for copy protection as I said these were my first Toshiba purchases and if all goes well with the new unit and with the customer service I just received, I would consider buying Toshiba again in the future, which he laughed and said that's what they like to hear.

So it is all up to them now.

Glad to hear about your new Magnavox being okay. You said it was an August 2008 manufacture. Well, that seems to be a good month as my 560 DVD recorder which so far has performed well, was also August 2008.

Will update in the future when I get the new one as to it being okay.

Digado:

If I were to use the Motorola DCT700 would that unscramble some channels if I have extended basic. Like I said, I have the Internet and they had to remove the filter which has allowed me to get most channels from 2 to 70, 95,96,99? Or do I need the digital "plan" and the Motorola?

thanks,

Digado:

If I were to use the Motorola DCT700 would that unscramble some channels if I have extended basic. Like I said, I have the Internet and they had to remove the filter which has allowed me to get most channels from 2 to 70, 95,96,99? Or do I need the digital "plan" and the Motorola?

thanks,

From my experience the DCT700 delivers all the channels included with the level of service to which we subscribe (the second HD tier that also provides TCM and the Encore group "mapped" to 500s locations.) The exceptions are HD services. The DCT700 may provide the local broadcast HD channels but they are downconverted to an analog format. Comcast calls the DTC700 a "digital converter box" because it receives digital services but the "digital" designation is misleading as the DCT700 downconverts everything to an analog output signal. In this respect the DCT700 is similar to Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes (CECBs) for antenna reception of "digital broadcast stations." The DCT700 and CECBs receive "digital signals" but output only "analog signals." The DCT700 tunes unencoded and encoded services, unscrambles encoded services, and "maps" the services to various "locations" below 99, to the 100s, 200s, 300s, 400s, 500s (that includes some unencoded services and encoded analog premium services, e.g. TCM, the Encore group, the Starz group, the HBO and Cinemax groups, Showtime, etc.), 600s, 800s and 900s (Music Choice group). The 700s (the actual HD service assignments) require HD converter boxes. All these services are actually located on some QAM sub-channel no higher than the 135 range.

From my experience the DC50X is a simple QAM tuner that does not unscramble encoded services but primarily "maps" our local extended basic services to the 32-71 "locations" plus a few strays elsewhere, including af few here and there in the 100s, 200s, 300s and 500s. The DC50X has an analog RF output. All these "services" are actually tuned by clear QAM tuners on QAM sub-channels no higher than the 135 range.

Due to mapping I am hesitant to call "mapped" services by the name "channels" because their "locations" are not actual "channels." When someone refers to "cable channel 507" that is actually a mapped location, not an actual "channel" number. A clear QAM TV may actually tune that service on sub-channel 116.2946. A clear QAM Philips or Magnavox HDD/DVD recorder may tune that service but may map it to sub-channel 116.19. Clear QAM HD TVs may tune unencoded HD services and display them in full HD quality.

Well I mailed the 660 to Toshiba a week ago Tuesday, UPS ground. They got it this past Monday. I called yesterday and it was logged into their system. So far they said they are checking all warehouses for another 660 to exchange. Thought I would give them until next week and ask how it is coming.

Well, today I got a UPS delivery from Toshiba and I see it is the newer model a 670. Looks like they couldn't find another 660 or maybe one without a problem. Glad they didn't do a refurbish...I would prefer what they just did....upgraded me. Now I have to connect it and test it out, especially for copy protection. Got my fingers crossed.

Am impressed with the quick response.

They were very good about keeping their HD-DVD players up to date even after they admitted defeat with FW updates and still sending out the promised 5 free movies so I'm not surprised they treated you well with this unit. Lets hope they do this for any customer and continue to provide good customer support.

Yes, I hope they keep this kind of service up since I didn't see a good word on this site about them but when I bought, it was in the last few months and choices were very limited.

So, far the 670 is working great. The tuners are okay. No more black screen with CP wording while tuning channels. Haven't tried everything yet but the VCR play and DVD play are also fine.
Recording is the most extensive test cause I test all ways of recording. Right now Trying to figure out how to get a better picture cause my cable is split so many times some channels just aren' sharp. Could be the splitters and/or the connection cables.
But am glad I got the new Toshiba DVD/VCR 670. The 660 dubbed a tape to DVD just fine. I expect the same here.

Try getting some good quality splitters and quad shielded RG6 cables with a MHZ rating approved or swept for satellite use. I bought my cable at Home Depot and they had bulk and 50 foot lengths plus ends and all that too.
It made the long run into my PC here stop dropping out all the time and all the sets get good digital reception now, the analog has always been hit or miss as I think Comcast is having issues with their feed or my outside cables are flakey.
When your running that high in the band cables and things make a huge difference. You might want to try one of the Motorola 2 way amps made for digital cable as well if you think your signal is still too low after fixing your cable runs.

. . . So, far the 670 is working great. The tuners are okay. No more black screen with CP wording while tuning channels. Haven't tried everything yet but the VCR play and DVD play are also fine.

Recording is the most extensive test cause I test all ways of recording. Right now Trying to figure out how to get a better picture cause my cable is split so many times some channels just aren' sharp. Could be the splitters and/or the connection cables . . .

So far sounds good.

There are various aftermarket or cable company provided amplifiers that may improve signal quality. Some other upgrades are quad-shielded RG6 coax and RF splitters of the 5 MHz-1 GHz or 5 MHz-2.3 GHz specification. Use terminators for unused outputs. The photo shows a terminator fitted to the lower right output of a 1 GHz splitter.

Thanks, DigaDo and Dartman, for the suggestions. I have printed them out for easy reading.

The 670 is still doing fine. I did try the VCR recording and no problem.

I didn't know about the different coaxial cables. I always remember just buying them and they all looked alike. I see DigaDo mentioned RG6...I saw a choice on ordering..RG6 and RG9. I got RG9. Don't know if it makes a difference.

Dartman mentioned his analog being hit or miss. Right now that is the signal I am spreading around cause I am not ready to double my cable bill for digital and then try to use my VCRs, etc. When I have to go digital or nothing...I will see my options then as new technology comes out every year.

Right now I have one cable coming into the house in the living room and it is split to my cable modem and then to my viewing. My viewing is split to 2 TVs, 1 VCR, and 1 long cable to my office where it is split 4 ways, to 3 VCRS and a TV. Now all of these connections give me perfect pictures on all my cable channels.

It is adding the 670 and the 560 to the office setup that is creating some bad channel pictures, one of which is ABC and I prefer the national networks to have a good picture.

Right now I ended up hooking the 560 to the OTA only, since I get a perfect ABC there if I want it (plus my 3 VCRs get it okay).

Then I took the TV cable from the 4 way splitter and split it on a 2 way..to the TV and to the 660 (cause I will use the VCR on cable channels as well as the DVD). I tried a 2way splitter of 5 to 900 MHZ which seemed to split the best here. I tried a 2way for digital satellite up to 2 GHZ. Neither one is perfect.

This TV cable originally went straight to the TV with perfect pictures, just like the 3 VCRS...all from the same 4 way splitter.
On the 2 way, the TV has light black wave lines on a couple of channels. The 660 has no lines on the same channels. And its picture is usable.

I still haven't given up on adding both the 560 and 660 to the cable setup with an A/B switch to Antenna if needed.

Back to the wars....will update as I find out more..if I do. I will have to make a trip to Home Depot I am sure.

Thanks again for the suggestions. Much appreciated!

Thats a LOT of gear to be split around to signal wise. I have a TV, HD tuner, 2 dvd recorders, 2 extra bedroom TV's and the PCHDTV card all split around here and so far the Digital channels have worked OK most of the time though occasionally when the analog signal gets bad my Cable modem looses sync as well and it's on it's own separate outlet.
I guess when I look at mine it has about as many splits as yours :rolleyes:
The main thing with my setup was getting the best quality cable and splitters I could and even trying the Motorola amp on the TV cables and the modem outlet. I have left the TV outlet going direct to the LG 4200a HD tuner then getting split about various ways from there.
The RF out from my 3575 feeds the extra TV's in the bedrooms as it's slightly amplified and that helps a bit.
Keep playing with it and you should get any issues figured out, took me a bit to get everything happy here.

I saw a choice on ordering..RG6 and RG9. I got RG9. Don't know if it makes a difference.

RG6 has become the standard coax. RG6 quad-shielded is preferred. These cables are of the 75 ohm variety.

RG9 is commercial transmission coax, of the 51 ohm variety. There may be a problem here.

http://support.radioshack.com/support_tutorials/audio_video/cable-coax.htm

HMMM, I was wondering what RG9 was but figured maybe they had come out with something new. It's probably meant for RF recieve and transmit like when I used to play with CB radios and we had the BIG RG8 coax, or the much smaller RG 259 cable. That stuff is 50 ohm rated and the bigger stuff tended to be hard to deal with but was much better as far as signal loss sending and receiving, kinda like RG6 quad shielded is for TV use and is 75 ohm, it also looses much less signal.

I just took it as a typo, RG9 for RG59 which use to be the standard for TV use before RG6 gained popularity. You still see quite a bit of RG59 used for pre made shorter length cables. Personally I'd only use RG6 for >100' lengths and very weak signal strength situations although my house was done in all RG59 but if I had to do it over again I might chose RG6, you never really want to have to do behind the wall cabling a second time and I guess you can't go wrong over building something.

Sorry, Guys....when RG6 was mentioned I knew mine had a 9 and not a 6 so I just figured it was RG9 instead of RG6. But after reading what you all said, I went looking and sure enough my cables have a 9 but they are RG59/U. Don't know what kind of signal a real RG9 would have done here but mine are the ones for my video, etc. And thank you, DigaDoo, for that link to Radio Shack and that explains things about these cables. I went there and printed out the information.

Dartman: I got an idea I will try to see if I can get both my 560 and 670 hooked up to my cable with good TV pictures to record. Like you said "keep playing with it....". That's half the fun.....

jjeff: Not a typo...just me not grabbing some cables and really reading them....when I saw RG6 mentioned and knew I had a 9 and assumed RG9 until you guys filled me in about these different types. Good thing too cause glad I got the right ones to use but NOW I know WHY they are the right ones to use.

Never have too much information....always learning.

Thanks again....will update if my new idea works out. At least now I have 2 DVD recorders that do work, added to my VCRs....all good to record my cable for the 3 years promised as analog.

Kind of sad...I remember and even now there are many people who cannot figure out how to use a VCR and from what I see one has to do to record a DVD....there is no way those people will ever record a DVD so I think the entertainment world has won without knowing.
I will learn it but I think it should have been as easy as the VCR, pop in a tape, record speed already set, and timer record or hit record. No formatting...no setting chapters...no recording different modes for different DVDs (+R/+RW and -R/-RW). And as easy as the VCR is....still a lot won't learn it.

I got the VCRs that one can timer record without turning on the TV to do it and that one-step record my better half has learned and I am proud of that but DVD recording? We'll see.

Thanks again for the advice and correcting me as to the correct cables.

Personally I'd only use RG6 for >100' lengths and very weak signal strength situations although my house was done in all RG59 but if I had to do it over again I might chose RG6, you never really want to have to do behind the wall cabling a second time and I guess you can't go wrong over building something.

Slightly off topic, but we did replace the cables in our house, one snowy weekend. To get behind the walls we connected the RG6 to the existing RG59 & pulled the old until it was replaced by new. Only hit a couple of snags! :p It was the addition of a DVDR that was one split too many. I couldn't believe some of the crappy old splitters that we were using in some places.

We also added a 2 way powered amp to the signal to go upstairs to bedrooms/computer rooms b/c signals were weak to the HDs the QAM tuners picked up.

Now to find electrical outlets to plug in the DTAs we'll be needing :(

I will learn it but I think it should have been as easy as the VCR, pop in a tape, record speed already set, and timer record or hit record. No formatting...no setting chapters...no recording different modes for different DVDs (+R/+RW and -R/-RW). And as easy as the VCR is....still a lot won't learn it.It is that easy, if you choose to keep it that simple.

You can just set the recording speed one time and leave it that way. You don't have to set chapters (you never had them with VHS, did you? It's actually a lot easier and quicker to move forward and back through a DVD than it is with VHS - even without chapters. I rarely ever put chapter marks on any movies I record - if I'm going to watch it, I'm going to watch it straight through, anyway).

And formatting isn't a big deal - only takes a few seconds.

Setting a timer or hitting the "record" button isn't any different than doing it with a VCR.

You don't need to use any "advanced features" unless you choose to do so.

The only real difference is that you might have to remember to erase the discs sooner than you would with a VHS tape (depending on what speed you were used to recording your tapes at), because you really can't get very watchable picture quality out of the 6-8 hr. modes.

If you can learn to timer record with a VCR, you shouldn't have any problem at all with a DVD or HDD recorder.

I rarely put in chapter stops in movies either. However, sometimes I will mark a favorite scene. Also, since +R DL discs FF so slowly, I sometimes put some chapter stops in the HDD, and burn them to disc on those. Now, if I had the time, film nut that I am, I would be tempted to chapter mark each scene... :D

Well I guess we shoulda figured maybe you left off a letter whilest trying to get your thoughts down, happens to all of us:D
Hopefully the cable is good enough that you get no dropouts and things, if not you might have to jump up to RG6 as best as you can, good luck.

It is...You don't have to set chapters (you never had them with VHS, did you? It's actually a lot easier and quicker to move forward and back through a DVD than it is with VHS - even without chapters. I rarely ever put chapter marks on any movies I record - if I'm going to watch it, I'm going to watch it straight through, anyway).
I rarely put in chapter stops in movies either. However, sometimes I will mark a favorite scene. Also, since +R DL discs FF so slowly, I sometimes put some chapter stops in the HDD, and burn them to disc on those. Now, if I had the time, film nut that I am, I would be tempted to chapter mark each scene... :D
This is something I have wrestled with over time. When I make a DVD of a movie, I almost always put in a chapter mark every ten minutes. It takes very little time, I just goto the create chapter page, play the movie through at high speed and hit the enter button when the time counter hits, 10, 20 etc. For television programs, there is a chapter mark for each commercial break. The difficult bit is when I am making copies of DVDs I have purchased. I really dislike DS-DL disks, and many of my titles come in that format, so I make "normal" copies of them for use. Do I take the itme to search out commercial breaks and mark them, or not. I usually do, but in some cases it's a lot more difficult than in other cases. The "Outer Limits" DVDs had the chapter stops in very screwy places, and not at all where the commercial breaks were (they were obvious, so I don't get why they put stops in other places). In that respect, I prefer my copies to the originals. The copied of course don't have any marks as I record them. If I want them, I have to do it.

Naw.......I wasn't thinking of chapters when doing movies. I watch those straight through also. The majority of my recording is due to timeshifting. I thought I would set an auto chapter break at 30 minutes cause I may be recording 2 or 3 hours of shows on the same channel and thought a chapter break would make it easier to watch the different shows I recorded. On the VHS, we have to go in order usually so we don't accidently see an ending to a drama before watching the drama.

I am spoiled by being able to set the timer without using the TV cause there is no way to do that with DVD recorders.

Well, my first DVD recorded from OTA came out perfect...16:9 and clear as a bell. It was doing basic recording...put it on the channel and hit record, set for 4 hours speed..turned out to be a 3 hr 45 minute NBA game and then I finalized it (another extra step). I kept the game on while recording cause I was checking for Copy Protection cause I was having problems with that on the defective unit I just returned.

So far, my 3x5 card about DVD recording basically says: FORMAT a DVD, choose a RECORD MODE, Chose channel to record and set it up via timer, etc. When done, FINALIZE, to play on other players, and may want to edit Title List to show program name. Also, may want to set up Auto Chapter. (to separate 30 min TV shows recorded under one Title).

Hopefully, that covers all decisions I need to know to timeshift using DVDs. They will not be played on the unit they are recorded on since it is in another room. My first try at OTA played perfectly on my 5 disc DVD player in another room.

Now if I get my DVD recorders added to my chain so that the picture they receive from cable is good...then I will be good to go to try out a new way of timeshifting....using a DVD recorder. I do enjoy watching DVDs especially on our new 32" HDTV (we are Netflix members and also watch the Instant using the Roku box), so I know eventually recording them will become as automatic as doing VHS tapes is now.

I almost always put in a chapter mark every ten minutes. It takes very little time, I just goto the create chapter page, play the movie through at high speed and hit the enter button when the time counter hits, 10, 20 etc.

With a Pioneer, and probably with most DVDRs, there is an easier way to do it. The Pio's 'skip ahead' button moves 10m with 7 quick pushes. Just go to chapter edit mode, hit pause, then use the skip ahead button to move instantly ahead 10m, then hit "Enter," to place the chapter mark. your chapters will be exactly 10m apart.

When I use the PC to make dvd's I usually set the programs I use to set 10 minute or sometimes 7 minute chapters and I set the 3575 to add 10 minutes chapters automatically as sometimes it makes it easier to zip through a dvd when checking quality or looking for a spot somewhere to watch. You can also custom set the skip/back buttons for different times on it as well when just trying to skim through commercials or do quick jumps to edit them out.

The "Outer Limits" DVDs had the chapter stops in very screwy places, and not at all where the commercial breaks were (they were obvious, so I don't get why they put stops in other places).

I just *knew* there had to be some other reason I liked you (besides your always-great posts)- and now I found it! You're an "Outer Limits" fan!:D The two classic '60s seasons were the very first DVD sets I ever bought- like most early TV dvds, horrendously overpriced and with the most damage-prone stupid packaging imaginable. Fantastic transfers, though: much better than my old EP "late late show" VHS recordings! First thing I did was back the discs up, second thing was discard the near-lethal cases they came in. Of course, two years later after pretty much anyone who wanted the show paid the inflated original price, MGM dropped it by 50% and switched to much better, safer cases. Typical. At least by the time other TV obscurities like "Threshold" came out, Amazon had got into its crazy random sale groove and you could get 'em much cheaper online.

At least by the time other TV obscurities like "Threshold" came out, Amazon had got into its crazy random sale groove and you could get 'em much cheaper online.Don't forget "Surface" when citing obscurities.

I just *knew* there had to be some other reason I liked you (besides your always-great posts)- and now I found it! You're an "Outer Limits" fan!:D The two classic '60s seasons were the very first DVD sets I ever bought- like most early TV dvds, horrendously overpriced and with the most damage-prone stupid packaging imaginable. Fantastic transfers, though: much better than my old EP "late late show" VHS recordings! First thing I did was back the discs up, second thing was discard the near-lethal cases they came in. Of course, two years later after pretty much anyone who wanted the show paid the inflated original price, MGM dropped it by 50% and switched to much better, safer cases. Typical. At least by the time other TV obscurities like "Threshold" came out, Amazon had got into its crazy random sale groove and you could get 'em much cheaper online.
off topic
When I was doing my VHS to DVD project, I copied several Outer Limits episodes. I stumbled on Demon With a Glass Hand. (They were out of order, so I wasn't actually 75% done.) It was a favorite and I actually watched it while it transferred. The cuts for time that were in there detracted so much from the story, I stopped dubbing TOL right there and bought the DVDs. THEN I saw that they were DS-DL disks, and knew I had to make my own copies. Sigh...
Don't forget "Surface" when citing obscurities.
I always got Surface confused with Invasion. It was a problem with Tyler Labine & Kari Matchett vs. Leighton Meester & Lake Bell. THAT was a year for Sci-FI, and by that I mean NOT Syfy:D.
back to topic

I got an angry call from my dad who says the television is so in and out that it depends on what time of day it is as to what channels he can watch. He was advised to get cable, but he really hates the idea. In his words, "Who would be STUPID enough to PAY for what they can get for free over the air?" The "free tv" seems to be a thing of the past. Thanks FCC.

Loved OUTER LIMITS! Those were the days of really great TV shows.

Outer Limits, Twilight Zone (old series), Alfred Hitchcock Presents, One Step Beyond and the one season Boris Karloff's The Veil, I have them all. The originals as well as the copies that I watch, well the Veil was a bit for bit copy made from a good friend on this board;) Gotta love those early TV programs on DVD:) I agree, those DL DS discs suck and they're used a lot for seasons on DVD:mad:

I am sorry I got in at the tail end where there are no decent DVD recorders anymore. The Toshiba had the fewest bad reviews of the recorders available. The LG was the worst. The Panasonics that are left did get bad reviews including overheating. I missed the good ones by enjoying my 4 VCRs.

I know you've got your new Toshiba working now, but if you ever decide to add another recorder for timeshifting and DVD burning, World Import does still have a great Panasonic model: http://www.world-import.com/Panasonic_dmr-eh68_320GB_HDD_DVD_Recorder.htm

It has HUGE built in hard drive (they have ones with smaller hard drives for a little less $$$) so you wouldn't need to mess with DVDs for watching programs later. And neither of my Panasonics have ever given me a false copy protect message. The downside is that you'll need to use an external tuner like one of your VCRs or an OTA box. Not sure how long they'll be available, but you haven't missed out quite yet ;)

Outer Limits, Twilight Zone (old series), Alfred Hitchcock Presents, One Step Beyond and the one season Boris Karloff's The Veil, I have them all.What - no "Thriller"?

Loved OUTER LIMITS! Those were the days of really great TV shows.They're showing all of the ones jjeff mentioned (other than the Karloff one) on the (Weigel-owned) retro subchannels we have here (Chicago market).

Y'all should move here!

Thanks for the information, Patrick...I will check out that link.

As far as the TV shows, I believe Alfred Hitchcock Presents is currently available on Netflix Instant Streaming. I don't remember One Step Beyond.

I seem to recall a very good one called Tales From The Crypt whose host was called the Cryptkeeper.

I found one I had remembered. I thought Roddy McDowall was in it and found out it was from Night Gallery, an episode called "The Cemetery". I remember one from years ago where a picture in a house showed a graveyard next to the house and someone buried there needed revenge and the guy living in the house saw the picture change everyday as a hand emerged from the ground, then more, etc, showing the person was getting closer to the house and you really need to read the recap to see what happened. I got the link as:

http://www.tv.com/Night+Gallery/The+Cemetery/episode/253663/recap.html?tag=content_wrap;episode_recap


That was really a spooky one for me.

off topic

I always got Surface confused with Invasion. It was a problem with Tyler Labine & Kari Matchett vs. Leighton Meester & Lake Bell. THAT was a year for Sci-FI, and by that I mean NOT Syfy:D.


Surface was NBC's version of ABC's Invasion.

I found one I had remembered. I thought Roddy McDowall was in it and found out it was from Night Gallery, an episode called "The Cemetery".That was in the pilot.

Another great one that was in the pilot was "The Escape Route". The final scene in that one just gave me goosebumps.

Here is a short list of some more of the best:

"Lone Survivor".
"The Doll"
"The Boy Who Predicted Earthquakes"
"The Flip Side of Satan"
"Professor Peabody's Last Lecture"
"The Caterpillar"

But none of them was as good as the absolute creepiest thing ever on TV in the 70's - "Amelia", which was Pt. 3 of the made-for-TV movie, "Trilogy of Terror". That was a true Horror masterpiece.

There were also some other, excellent, creepy made-for-TV movies in the 70's - like "Don't Be Afraid of the Dark", and "Bad Ronald".

I have been trying to find the title of a late 60's or early 70's movie they seemed to play every year around Oct 31st that had one of those plastic riding horses that the parents were trying to get rid of, but it kept coming back. Any ideas???

Thanks,

Surface was NBC's version of ABC's Invasion.

Both shows began the same year (fall season), as did Threshold, so neither was a version of the other, as they were all ordered without the other networks knowing about the other. :D

But none of them was as good as the absolute creepiest thing ever on TV in the 70's - "Amelia", which was Pt. 3 of the made-for-TV movie, "Trilogy of Terror". That was a true Horror masterpiece.

There were also some other, excellent, creepy made-for-TV movies in the 70's - like "Don't Be Afraid of the Dark", and "Bad Ronald".


Looks like maybe I should check Netflix for those episodes.

About the Trilogy of Terror.....I think I remember that...wasn't Karen Black in 1 of the 3 tales...maybe being chased around by a small figure of some type that was very nasty?

About the Trilogy of Terror.....I think I remember that...wasn't Karen Black in 1 of the 3 tales...maybe being chased around by a small figure of some type that was very nasty?Actually, she was in all three episodes - but the first two weren't anywhere near as good.

It was a Zuni doll, and it came to life after it's little chain belt fell off.

About those NG episodes - "The Doll" is probably my all-time favorite. It's probably the best "doll" horror bit ever done (even better than Twilight Zone's "Talking Tina". Speaking of Twilight Zone, I think my absolute favorite creepy episode is the one where the moaning dead guy keeps calling up the old lady on the telephone. I'm sure jjeff knows which one I'm talking about. That creeped the living pants off me when I was young).

Both shows began the same year (fall season), as did Threshold, so neither was a version of the other, as they were all ordered without the other networks knowing about the other. :DIf I recall correctly, LOST came out the first year and was a surprise hit. So the following year, in true form, the networks tried to go sci-fi and put out Surface, Invasion and Threshold to try and cash in on the LOST popularity. I believe Threshold bit the dust first followed shortly after by Surface. I think Invasion was actually allowed to run the full season.

IIRC Invasion followed LOST and they always ran LOST a couple minutes past the hour to hook you in.

When I said version, I should have said "version".

NBC Surface
ABC Invasion
CBS Threshold

Something falls in water. The something transforms humans. The Humans Fight back. and then "cliffhanger" writers strike.

About those NG episodes - "The Doll" is probably my all-time favorite. It's probably the best "doll" horror bit ever done (even better than Twilight Zone's "Talking Tina". Speaking of Twilight Zone, I think my absolute favorite creepy episode is the one where the moaning dead guy keeps calling up the old lady on the telephone. I'm sure jjeff knows which one I'm talking about. That creeped the living pants off me when I was young).

Actually that episode was on during syfy's 4th of July weekend. Do not read further if you do not want to hear the plot twist. It was her dead husband and by the time she figured it out, it was too late to talk to him.

Loved OUTER LIMITS! Those were the days of really great TV shows.

I am really sorry I started this. I never expected it to take on such a life of its own. I should have been a separate thread... but as long as we are here, there are several shows from this era, and I define that when I was youngerish, that I have made efforts to obtain. Outer Limits was one, of course, but there was The Man from UNCLE, which came on perfectly fine DVDs, so no need to copies. Kolchak, which came on DS-DL disks :(. We have a station in the LA area that shows old series and I got the entire Mission Impossible series, uncut, AND the whole Wild, Wild west series. Many years ago, Encore Mystery showed all of the Avengers, uncut and commercial free. When I converted my tapes to DVD, I put them all in order, so I have a complete set of those too. James West and Artie Gordon, John Steed and Emma Peel, the memories!

I don't have The Saint, but I do have the DVDs of The Prisoner. "Eye yam knot an umber..."

I do have the DVDs of The Prisoner. "Eye yam knot an umber..."I don't think I ever understood that show.

I am really sorry I started this. I never expected it to take on such a life of its own. I should have been a separate thread... but as long as we are here, there are several shows from this era, and I define that when I was youngerish, that I have made efforts to obtain. Outer Limits was one, of course, but there was The Man from UNCLE, which came on perfectly fine DVDs, so no need to copies. Kolchak, which came on DS-DL disks :(. We have a station in the LA area that shows old series and I got the entire Mission Impossible series, uncut, AND the whole Wild, Wild west series. Many years ago, Encore Mystery showed all of the Avengers, uncut and commercial free. When I converted my tapes to DVD, I put them all in order, so I have a complete set of those too. James West and Artie Gordon, John Steed and Emma Peel, the memories!

I don't have The Saint, but I do have the DVDs of The Prisoner. "Eye yam knot an umber..."

We are just trying to remember the "free TV we didn't have to pay for" years ago. :rolleyes:

...I do have the DVDs of The Prisoner. "Eye yam knot an umber..."

I don't think I ever understood that show.
I don't think Patrick McGoohan ever understood that show! It was stellar though. Leo McKern was the absolute best Number Two.

I don't think Patrick McGoohan ever understood that show! It was stellar though. Leo McKern was the absolute best Number Two.OK then, what was with the big ball?

OK then, what was with the big ball?
Rover? He/it was the escape detector/retrieval device. The story is, they had a vicious-looking, omnious device that the prop department put together, and on its maiden voyage, it sunk into the ocean! It had been based on some ATV six wheeled thing with hooks, ropes and such stuff. It capsized when a wave hit it and was never to be seen again.

They had to come up with something fast in order to make the shooting schedule, and since the prop department was out having a good cry, someone came up with the whether balloon idea, and that's what they used, and that's what stuck. If you believe it, I have some swamp land to sell you.:D

Ramm & others in the Chicago area -

I was just doing some channel surfing and saw a "commercial" on one of the local Chicagoland channels, MeToo. They are going to have a First Episode Marathon on Monday from 10am to 10pm. I looked & there was Lost in Space, Star Trek, Bonanza, The Fugitive & of course a bunch of others.

We are just trying to remember the "free TV we didn't have to pay for" years ago. :rolleyes:


How true that is...."Free TV"....:)

Something that was really Free...like they told us...the commercials are why it is free cause we have to watch the ads. Now with cable we PAY to watch the commercials...
go figure:(

How true that is...."Free TV"....:)

Something that was really Free...like they told us...the commercials are why it is free cause we have to watch the ads. Now with cable we PAY to watch the commercials...
go figure:(Think of it this way. With cable, you are still getting free TV. You just have to pay for delivery.

Kelson:

Thank you for making me laugh. That was my reaction to a very clever line....

Laughter is healthy and we can always use more of it.

How true that is...."Free TV"....:)

Something that was really Free...like they told us...the commercials are why it is free cause we have to watch the ads. Now with cable we PAY to watch the commercials...
go figure:(
It was never really free, you were paying by watching the commercials. One TV exec has been quoted as saying that people who skip through the commercials are stealing the programming. That may not be my view, but it is the industry's view.

They've been trying to make it illegal or impossible to skip commercials for years. I don' have a Tivo or cable PVR so I don't know exactly how they work but I'm pretty sure you can't just go through and edit out the commercials, you can skip through them I'm pretty sure though.
I hate commercials om my dubs, I hate the FORCED commercials on like Hulu and some of the other sites for news videos and others as well. I'm paying for my broadband and I don't want commercials or pop ups all over the place becuase that's the only way they seem to think of making money from me.
I'm paying for about every form of entertainment that enters my house, then they want to make me sit through crap every 7 minutes or so becuase they want more.
I take a lot of online surveys and of course they are always asking about commercials and most of them I don't remember till they actually show a example and ask if I've seen it, maybe they need to rethink the way they do adds.

They've been trying to make it illegal or impossible to skip commercials for years. . .

Commercials are pretty serious business. As has been discussed earlier, commercials are so serious that many of them have "copy protection" that complicates recording of regular programs that do not have "copy protection."

Commercials can be designed to be effective when viewed in FF mode, but when digital made it possible to just skip over them, well, there is no remedy, from the advertiser's point of view.

I think most people with DVR's are not so disciplined that they record everything they want to watch and only watch recorded programs they can skip through.

My significant other and I watch a lot of shows timeshifted to our DVR. Often we are on our laptops and/or reading the papers while doing so. When commercials come on I often ignore them. My lady crooks her finger at me, cueing me to hit the fast forward button. It occurred to me that years of broadcast TV conditioned us to "take breaks" during programs. I describe them as "Natures Pauses". :)

It occurred to me that years of broadcast TV conditioned us to "take breaks" during programs. I describe them as "Natures Pauses". :)My wife sews (cross-stitch) and my daughter knits while watching TV so they have no problems with commercials and tend to watch a show they want live, when it is broadcast. They just use a commercial to focus on their activity. I hate it when they do that if it is also a show I am interested in.

I hate it when they do that if it is also a show I am interested in.

I totally agree, the few times I watch live TV it reminds me how much I like being able to skip the commercials:D
They're so annoyingly loud both audio and video, they're probably trying to attract peoples attention but all it does in annoy me:mad:

My mom comes over and demands we mute the commercials, thats her solution:p
They have a Panny E80H that has spent so much time dutifly recording Opra and DR Phil every day since they got it that the hard drive is now toast and in the least needs a reformat. All it says now is unformat and wont go any farther after a restart, They never watched anything on it, they never could figure out how to use it.
Anyways you might want to look for a setup in audio called stable sound or something similar, most newer TV's have it and it just compresses the sound so the commercials aren't as annoyingly louder then everything else. It does help a bit:D
I edit out everything unneeded to the Hard drive equipped machines then burn the keepers to disk, and I even do it before just watching it outright from the drive most of the time.

My mom comes over and demands we mute the commercials, thats her solution:pMy mom does that, too. And she's even hard of hearing, on top of it. Thing is, she watches TV extra loud normally, so when the commercials come on, it can sometimes really be blaringly loud - even for her. Her most watched channel is CBS (naturally - the "old people's channel"), and that channel's audio is especially soft.

She's forever complaining about it to me.

There were supposed to have introduced a bill in Congress to stop that a few months back - I wonder what ever became of it?

Interesting, my mom and step dad are both hard of hearing and have hearing aids as well now, sounds like both are having issues with the commercials over doing their hearing aids and driving them nuts.
I've ALWAYS used hearing protection when using anything loud, too bad when they were growing up nobody cared or was aware of the damage they were doing to themselves.

CBS (naturally - the "old people's channel"), and that channel's audio is especially soft.



Oh so now you're saying my favorite channel makes me one of "the old people":D
I think you've got it reversed, CBS is known for exactly the opposite, that is being way too loud. If my TV wasn't on CBS most of the time I'd probably notice more how loud it is, which is annoyingly loud. I think even Wiki has a note about CBS being so loud and it's not just the commercials, even the shows are noticeably louder than other channels.

I think it's just the particular shows that she watches that are especially soft and low-key - like "Ghost Whisperer". Then when the commercials come on, it's back to how it normally is - too loud.

So, yeah - that's really what I meant, but I just sort of worded it bass-ackwards.

Hey - I'm an "old person", too, because I watch the retro channels - remember? ;) I think CBS just has a history of people jokingly calling it that because of shows like Ghost Whisperer, and in the past, stuff like Murder She Wrote (wasn't Matlock originally on the channel, too?) You know - stuff that they show on The Hallmark Channel now.

I think it's just the particular shows that she watches that are especially soft and low-key - like "Ghost Whisperer". Then when the commercials come on, it's back to how it normally is - too loud.

So, yeah - that's really what I meant, but I just sort of worded it bass-ackwards.

Hey - I'm an "old person", too, because I watch the retro channels - remember? ;) I think CBS just has a history of people jokingly calling it that because of shows like Ghost Whisperer, and in the past, stuff like Murder She Wrote (wasn't Matlock originally on the channel, too?) You know - stuff that they show on The Hallmark Channel now.

I'm sure I'd love that retro channel if I could get it;)
I really appreciate that CBS (in my market) has no sub channels so their HD channel is allocated the full bandwidth for a picture that's second to none. My local CBS channel recently started broadcasting their local newscasts in HD and it exceeded my expectations:) In fact the picture was so sharp and detailed that I had to turn down my sharpness several points, now it's spot on the clearest local news in my area with NBC being a close second(it has one Wx sub channel). In comparison my local FOX and ABC local HD newscasts are barely what I would call HD, more like good upconverted SD IMO.

I am really sorry I started this.

You didn't start it: I picked up on one of your passing references and did my usual bloviating. :rolleyes: If someone needs to take the fall for going off topic, it should be me.:o

I have been trying to find the title of a late 60's or early 70's movie t(...) that had one of those plastic riding horses that the parents were trying to get rid of, but it kept coming back. Any ideas???

That's always stuck in my memory, too: scared the hell out of me. It was from the failed 1972-73 horror series "Circle of Fear", the episode title was "Dark Vengeance". Martin Sheen and Kim Darby were the stars, Sheen played a construction worker who finds a mirrored box buried deep in the ground containing a miniature hobby horse that keeps getting bigger and scarier and more menacing. Don't laugh: this had an amazing spooky script produced by Richard Matheson and William Castle, and if you were like 11 years old at the time it made you crap your pants and avoid amusement park carousels for months afterward. I'd love to get this, I try to collect everything Matheson ever had a hand in.

But none of them was as good as the absolute creepiest thing ever on TV in the 70's - "Amelia", which was Pt. 3 of the made-for-TV movie, "Trilogy of Terror". That was a true Horror masterpiece.

Richard Matheson strikes again! Damn, he was good. I love the ending when Karen Black lovingly invites her shrewish Mom over for a visit: "oh, you have to see it, Ma,,, it comes with a little scroll and has an amulet around its neck..." No CGI trickery here: that demonic little doll was animatronic and cost a bloody fortune: $150,000 budget for an ABC Movie Of The Week was astronomical in those days.

Speaking of Twilight Zone, I think my absolute favorite creepy episode is the one where the moaning dead guy keeps calling up the old lady on the telephone. I'm sure jjeff knows which one I'm talking about. That creeped the living pants off me when I was young).

"He-llo? H-e-l-l-o? I want to t-a-l-k to yo-u...." Terrifying: to this day I can't watch it. "Night Call" is probably the single creepiest "Twilight Zone" of all, and it seems a lot longer than 30 mins. Really mean-spirited and nasty, too: the plot analysis in the TZ "Companion" book makes some interesting points.

I totally agree, the few times I watch live TV it reminds me how much I like being able to skip the commercials:D

That's why I say real-time is wasted time ;)


My mom comes over and demands we mute the commercials, thats her solution:p

Beats listening to them. Better yet, if you have PIP, you can channel surf, with the commercial in the PIP, then swap when the program comes back. :D

That's always stuck in my memory, too: scared the hell out of me. It was from the failed 1972-73 horror series "Circle of Fear", the episode title was "Dark Vengeance". Martin Sheen and Kim Darby were the stars, Sheen played a construction worker who finds a mirrored box buried deep in the ground containing a miniature hobby horse that keeps getting bigger and scarier and more menacing. Don't laugh: this had an amazing spooky script produced by Richard Matheson and William Castle, and if you were like 11 years old at the time it made you crap your pants and avoid amusement park carousels for months afterward. I'd love to get this, I try to collect everything Matheson ever had a hand in.

Thank's Citibear!! Found it. SkaryguyVideo.com; ioffer.com/i/106919023

I have another one. The late 60's early 70's Movie about the subway tunnel collapse under NY, NY? or San Fransisco?

I have an old favorite, that I doubt anyone can find. It was called Great Ghost Tales, and was a series in the summer of 1961. Every show a classic. It was the last TV show performed live!