I have posted in the past with my dilema in trying to decide what type of sub I should get for my room. The decision is based on comprimise. I recently got a new sectional for my room. Prior, I had 2 sofas with the sub placed in the corner, and now with the sectional I had to move it to the end of the sectional...out of the corner:

Current sub: Veldyne DLS-3750

Sub budget: $500 - $600

use: 99% HT

Old room pic with sofa...sub under corner table...between sofas.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/Sd06xxer88I/AAAAAAAACRY/Z2cMOMxssO4/s576/Den%20Audio%20Layout%20April%202009%20007.jpg

New room pic...with the sofa pushed away from wall so sub can be squeezed back in corner; however, i would need a slimer sub for this positioning to be permanent. Possible option for slim sub is eD A3-250. This is a comprimise, because it is almost to tight of a space for me to fit a sub back in the corner. The sofa is too far away from the side window-wall...and not center to the TV.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/Sho3BPcnWEI/AAAAAAAACVI/M8P-xGQ1vhY/s512/Den%20Audio%20Layout%20MAY%202009%20002.jpg

Pic of sub placement that is the most effecient for room (Audyssey dialed in a gain of -9). Problem is that the sofa really needs to be pushed 2-3 inches closer to the windows for WAF. A sub that is slimmer and or not as high would allow the sofa to gain a few inches closer to the wall.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/Sho3DJdstJI/AAAAAAAACVM/VZmrjZfizf0/s512/Den%20Audio%20Layout%20MAY%202009%20003.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/Sho3EszKyMI/AAAAAAAACVQ/zYzia9gsaBw/s512/Den%20Audio%20Layout%20MAY%202009%20004.jpg

The other placement option for the sub is where I have those boxes positioned. With that placement, the only limiting factor is budget. I think I am leaning towards a SVS PB12 for my $500-600 budget if I use this position. Downside, Audyssey dialed in a gain of 0...that is a huge difference from -9 when placed in the corner. This would be a comprimise, because of positioning I am loosing so much room performance; however, I can get a much better performing sub for the money.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/Sho3F-spdPI/AAAAAAAACVU/EMFmTsJuiMY/s512/Den%20Audio%20Layout%20MAY%202009%20005.jpg

View of TV:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/Sho3HNRrN4I/AAAAAAAACVY/-Kwr8trRK6s/s512/Den%20Audio%20Layout%20MAY%202009%20006.jpg

Any input or suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

What about under the end table on the right side of the couch (as shown in the first picture). Basically, on the side of the couch opposite the windows.


http://lh4.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/Sd06xxer88I/AAAAAAAACRY/Z2cMOMxssO4/s576/Den%20Audio%20Layout%20April%202009%20007.jpg

What about 2 smaller subs one behind the couch, is there an option for another place to put another sub, you'll get smoother response will 2 subs, I'd look at HSU research STF2 then maybe a STF 1 for another hidden spot somewhere. The STF 2 Dimensions 19”(h)/14”(w)/18”(d)
STF 1 Dimensions 19”(h) / 11”(w) / 16”(d). Another option don't know if it will work for you but look at some in wall subs or in floor subs, lot of work but not visiable so would help WAF, but then again cutting in to wall or floor would no help the WAF either.

What about under the end table on the right side of the couch (as shown in the first picture). Basically, on the side of the couch opposite the windows.

I agree that sounds like an idea. Or just run with where you had the boxes. That just looks awkward having it set up with the sub behind the couch. Maybe you could try putting it behind the other couch, and pushing the other ones closer to the windows.

What about 2 smaller subs one behind the couch, is there an option for another place to put another sub, you'll get smoother response will 2 subs, I'd look at HSU research STF2 then maybe a STF 1 for another hidden spot somewhere. The STF 2 Dimensions 19”(h)/14”(w)/18”(d)
STF 1 Dimensions 19”(h) / 11”(w) / 16”(d). Another option don't know if it will work for you but look at some in wall subs or in floor subs, lot of work but not visiable so would help WAF, but then again cutting in to wall or floor would no help the WAF either.

+1

i agree... eventhough i have a budget sub... adding a second one made a huge difference.. the pair actually works less than having a single. its amazing the gain you get from it.. and even at a lower level.. i went from having my single at -5db after matched leveling to having it run at -10db using duals.. and it still sounds better than the single did.

Clarification, the white sofas are not in the room....just the brown leather sectional.

What about under the end table on the right side of the couch (as shown in the first picture). Basically, on the side of the couch opposite the windows.

I was wondering if it was a bad thing that the other side opens to the kitchen. By the way, you realize that the 2 white sofas are gone and the brown sectional is what is in the room now...causing my current dilema.

What about 2 smaller subs one behind the couch, is there an option for another place to put another sub, you'll get smoother response will 2 subs, I'd look at HSU research STF2 then maybe a STF 1 for another hidden spot somewhere. The STF 2 Dimensions 19”(h)/14”(w)/18”(d) STF 1 Dimensions 19”(h) / 11”(w) / 16”(d). Another option don't know if it will work for you but look at some in wall subs or in floor subs, lot of work but not visiable so would help WAF, but then again cutting in to wall or floor would no help the WAF either.

I am hesitant at the 2 budget/smaller sub idea because I wanted to get a taste of my room hitting 20hz competantly.... and i don`t know if 2 smaller subs that can probably only get to 30hz would bring me closer to that goal. I am relatively happy with my Velodyne DLS-3750, but it looses a lot of punch when placed at the end of the sectional...by the TV. I guess another option is to have it placed on the other side of the sectional; however, that does not sound like a good idea because it is further away from a closed wall/boundry and the front of the room (i know bass is omni-directional).

Clarification, the white sofas are not in the room....just the brown leather sectional.

I was wondering if it was a bad thing that the other side opens to the kitchen. By the way, you realize that the 2 white sofas are gone and the brown sectional is what is in the room now...causing my current dilema.


Yep... figured that out. I assumed the table was still there, or that you removed it completely and could place the sub there anyway. Seems like a fairly unobtrusive place to give it a try.

At either end of the sectional would be my top contenders. Definitely not wedged between the sectional and window.

Yep... figured that out. I assumed the table was still there, or that you removed it completely and could place the sub there anyway. Seems like a fairly unobtrusive place to give it a try.

At either end of the sectional would be my top contenders. Definitely not wedged between the sectional and window.

Thanks jamis, I appreciate your vote. I still can`t believe that there is a 9 point loss when moving from the corner to the end of the sectional.

I guess i should work on placing the sub at the end of the sectional...and work on getting a meatier sub that can compensate for the poor location for effeciency

Anyone else have input

+1

i agree... eventhough i have a budget sub... adding a second one made a huge difference.. the pair actually works less than having a single. its amazing the gain you get from it.. and even at a lower level.. i went from having my single at -5db after matched leveling to having it run at -10db using duals.. and it still sounds better than the single did.

I don`t doubt that having 2 properly tuned and positioned subs can have higher db`s than 1; however,

I have read that it is better investing in 1 great sub as opposed to 2 ok subs. Again, if the 1 great sub option was used it would have to be placed at the end of the sectional (where the boxes are) where you loose sub effeciency.

A great sub isn't so great if its not placed in a optimal place. 2 lesser subs would be better. Now if you get a large great sub thats not a problem but you want a compact sub and then put it in a bad spot. That why getting 2 subs would output more bass and possibly go lower than one good sub place in the wrong spot. JMO

how about 2 good quality budget subs ... BIC H100,,,, Acoustic Audio HD-SUB12 ,, or the Premier Acoustic PA-120..... not referring to cheap quality budget subs

A great sub isn't so great if its not placed in a optimal place. 2 lesser subs would be better. Now if you get a large great sub thats not a problem but you want a compact sub and then put it in a bad spot. That why getting 2 subs would output more bass and possibly go lower than one good sub place in the wrong spot. JMO

So you are saying not to invest in 1 great sub and position it at the end of the sectional (where the Energy boxes are), but instead get 2 "lesser" subs:confused:. Is this assuming that I would atleast position 1 in that corner room position that yields the most efficiency for my room?? In that case one sub would have to be slimmer and shorter to fit in that corner.

I am still really on the fence with trying to figure out what to do with my situation, and I could use a bit more advice:o

No if you can put a big sub in a good spot were its not a bass null then go ahead. But from reading your post you wanted a small compact sub thats not noticable. And was wanting to put it in a bad location? If I understand this right. So my thinking was instead of spending 600 on a small sub to hide it behind the sofa which from what you say is a least than optiumal spot due to WAF, you should get two cheaper subs and place them in other spots that can hide them (helps the WAF) but now if your saying you want a PB12 sub which is a BIG sub and not worried about hiding it then go for the PB12 but remember that sub is about as big as your intables.

So you are saying not to invest in 1 great sub and position it at the end of the sectional (where the Energy boxes are), but instead get 2 "lesser" subs:confused:. Is this assuming that I would atleast position 1 in that corner room position that yields the most efficiency for my room?? In that case one sub would have to be slimmer and shorter to fit in that corner.

I am still really on the fence with trying to figure out what to do with my situation, and I could use a bit more advice:o

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=843868&postcount=2

the complete link is here.. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286

No if you can put a big sub in a good spot were its not a bass null then go ahead. But from reading your post you wanted a small compact sub thats not noticable. And was wanting to put it in a bad location? If I understand this right. So my thinking was instead of spending 600 on a small sub to hide it behind the sofa which from what you say is a least than optiumal spot due to WAF, you should get two cheaper subs and place them in other spots that can hide them (helps the WAF) but now if your saying you want a PB12 sub which is a BIG sub and not worried about hiding it then go for the PB12 but remember that sub is about as big as your intables.

From testing various positions, I can place the sub in a sub-optimal postion (at the end of the sectional...where the Energy boxes are) and NOT have a bass null; however, I would have a huge loss in effeciency (9 point loss). With utilizing this position I would not have any size constraints on the sub.

The other option is finding a slim sub and placing it in that back corner.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=843868&postcount=2

the complete link is here.. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286

I am so glad that you posted this link, because I did not respect how important it is to have identical subs if using 2. I also realize that finding 2 slim subs in the back corners of the room would be great options if possible.

From testing various positions, I can place the sub in a sub-optimal postion (at the end of the sectional...where the Energy boxes are) and NOT have a bass null; however, I would have a huge loss in effeciency (9 point loss). With utilizing this position I would not have any size constraints on the sub.

The other option is finding a slim sub and placing it in that back corner.


I am so glad that you posted this link, because I did not respect how important it is to have identical subs if using 2. I also realize that finding 2 slim subs in the back corners of the room would be great options if possible.

the reason for NOT using 2 different subs.. is that the better sub will outshine the lesser sub and it is noticeable.. i had this set up.. cheap sub with my pa120... and i could tell the difference right away... the lesser sub did not compliment the pa120 at all.. made things sound terrible..

adding an idyntical sub.. well now.. things shot through the roof.. and im still amazed at the sound quality ... but placement is everything..

Thanks jaejw1!

God, what a tough decision!! If placement is everything (which is what I was suspecting), I will have to invest in a smaller sub (or 2)that won't be rated to go as low...but may have more SPL (room gains) when paired. I really wanted to have my room hit 20hz; however, with the 2 smaller subs positioned well...that may not be possible.

Thanks jaejw1!

God, what a tough decision!! If placement is everything (which is what I was suspecting), I will have to invest in a smaller sub (or 2)that won't be rated to go as low...but may have more SPL (room gains) when paired. I really wanted to have my room hit 20hz; however, with the 2 smaller subs positioned well...that may not be possible.
NO NO NO.... it is very much possible...

the like subs will compliment each other.. and allow for the lower freqs to be played with ease..

my sub is rated to only 23hz.. doesnt mean that the single sub wont play 20hz... it just wont play it as loud as 23hz..
but with them paired.. i have experienced very low subsonic freqs in movies..

lord of the rings.. hitchhikers guide to the galaxy ,, and others..

OK, this would be a gamble....but i bet if I was able to sucessfully get a MFW-15 that works, it surely would be able to stomp on 2 smaller subs placed on either back corner...and would be more powerful than placing a SVS PC-12 NSD in the same spot (at the end of the section, where the boxes are).

I am debating if it is worth the gamble.

OK, this would be a gamble....but i bet if I was able to sucessfully get a MFW-15 that works, it surely would be able to stomp on 2 smaller subs placed on either back corner...and would be more powerful than placing a SVS PC-12 NSD in the same spot (at the end of the section, where the boxes are).

I am debating if it is worth the gamble.

there is no gamble.... just scientific fact ... 2 smaller subs will be better in output and overallsound than a single larger sub.... but not on an extreme scale... 2-8's vs. 1-18" theres no comparison but 2-10's vs. 1-12" or 2-12's vs. 1-15 then yes

Ok, i guess in this scenario lets assume I will get the MFW-15...thus a 15" woofer in a massive ported box. According to the rep at AV123, it can easily have an in room gain of 100db at 20hz..and comfortably hit 15hz. He also said to expect dbs on an average of 115db-118db in room.

If I were looking at 2 subs in the corners, I could compare the HSU STF-2 (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html) to the Outlaw LFM-1 (http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmcompact.html). The prices are comparable for now because there is a deal on the LFM-1 when purchased as a pair($725)...as opposed to buying 2 STF-2 ($700).

Wait, the shipping from Outlaw for the pair is $101.43:eek: >> TOTAL=$826.43 as opposed to HSU which is $66 >>TOTAL=$764. Than again, the MFW is 499 plus about $125 in shipping. So many options!!

Under a coffee table in the middle of the room perhaps just in front of the couch? You'll need one anyway at some point. Though I'm not sure how the wiring would work...and it may rattle your drinks :o

Ok, i guess in this scenario lets assume I will get the MFW-15...thus a 15" woofer in a massive ported box. According to the rep at AV123, it can easily have an in room gain of 100db at 20hz..and comfortably hit 15hz. He also said to expect dbs on an average of 115db-118db in room.

If I were looking at 2 subs in the corners, I could compare the HSU STF-2 (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html) to the Outlaw LFM-1 (http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmcompact.html). The prices are comparable for now because there is a deal on the LFM-1 when purchased as a pair($725)...as opposed to buying 2 STF-2 ($700).

Wait, the shipping from Outlaw for the pair is $101.43:eek: >> TOTAL=$826.43 as opposed to HSU which is $66 >>TOTAL=$764. Than again, the MFW is 499 plus about $125 in shipping. So many options!!

well..I think right now ur chasing a ghost... get what u can comfortably afford... and when the time is right buy another one...

the subs ur looking at arent inferior,,, they will do what u want them to do... it all comes down to personal choice now.... like picking a car,,, u have several to choose from and they all will serve the purpose.. now its time to look at fit and finish and see which one u would want to look at,,, they all will have the sound u want....

thats how I picked my PA-120 subs over the other budget subs... I liked the internal bracing and the gloss finish....

Regarding location, there's no written rule that requires the sub to be on the floor. Have you thought about placing it up high at the ceiling such as depicted in the attached photo. Any idiot can piss on the floor but only a true real hero can crap on the ceiling. Test it out, not only do you save valuable floor space but you might be surprised at the sonic benefits in such a location.

Have you checked out the SVS PC12 NSD. You could lay it on it's side anywhere along the wall behind the couch which would give you the most placement options to play with. In the same spot as your current sub for the low end boost or toward the other end which would probably be a flatter response or anywhere in between. You could even stand it upright at the end of the couch if you don't mind the height. Seems like more flexibility for you.

Regarding location, there's no written rule that requires the sub to be on the floor. Have you thought about placing it up high at the ceiling such as depicted in the attached photo. Any idiot can piss on the floor but only a true real hero can crap on the ceiling. Test it out, not only do you save valuable floor space but you might be surprised at the sonic benefits in such a location.

Thanks for the suggestion, but i guess i am a bit more traditional and will try and keep my sub closer to the floor. Interesting suggestion:o

The PC12 is still 16" in diameter and does not yield a lot of size advantage in my situation. Thanks for the idea.

Can you place a sub in the front? To the left of the fireplace if you are facing the fireplace?

BTW, I really like that sectional. Me and my wife will be in the market for something similar at some point in the future.

I am sure most of you are tired of me posting sub questions, but I tried playing with placement with my current sub....and If placement is everything I can probably squeeze an Outlaw LFM-1 Compact (http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmcompact.html)on both corners in the back of the room. I REALLY don't care for the look of having a sub squeezed between the sofa and wall/window....but I also really don't like weak bass response.

I have another thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1156540) researching the biggest baddest sub I can get within my budget to use as a SINGLE sub placed in the middle of the room at the other end of the sectional. I can probably squeeze a sub at both ends of the sectional (1 in the corner by kitchen, and one in the middle of the room)
http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=1&view=att&th=12203efb7924d613&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=f_fw820joi&zw

I think that it is said if multiple subs are being used they should be placed symmetrical.

Can you place a sub in the front? To the left of the fireplace if you are facing the fireplace?

Thanks ack_bck! I will actually now have AV123 floor standers up front, so I can't fit anything else on the floor in the front by the fireplace/tv