Hi,

My home isn't that big; it's a 1,700 square foot townhouse. But, aside from the bedrooms, most of that is taken up by one big, multi-story, irregularly shaped space. I'm in the market for a new sub, and I'm beginning to think that I'm kinda screwed! :)

Here's the layout: My AV system is in a "area" with an approximately 12'x12' footprint.... and an 18' ceiling. To the right of the listening position is a staircase leading up to the second floor. Behind the listening position, on the first floor is a wall, with two largish openings that lead into the kitchen and dinette area. On the second floor, the "back wall" of the listening area is a large loft, maybe 12' x 15'. To the left of the listening position,(back on the 1st floor) is a 10'x12' seating area that has a normal 8' ceiling. Got all that? ;)

I plugged some (estimated) numbers into Google's calculator (http://www.google.com/webhp?rls=ig#rls=ig&hl=en&q=(15*11*8)+%2B+(15*12*18)+%2B+(14*14*8)&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=(15*11*8)+%2B+(15*12*18)+%2B+(14*14*8)&fp=FqKnkuCRnN0), and got a figure of about 6,000 cubic feet. Ouch. And this didn't include the staircase, kitchen, dinette, or the various hallways both upstairs and down.

I'm not actually trying to "fill" this space with sound; I just want it to sound good in my listening position. I'm quite happy with how my Rocket RS550s sound. But filling in the low end is gonna be difficult, right?

I bought a Rocket ULW-10 several years ago, and frankly, I thought it sounded pretty good. Not chest-rattling, but I thought it filled in the bottom end pretty nicely. Not bad for a 10", sealed sub in a 6,000 sq/ft room, I guess! But, it developed a nasty buzz 6+ months ago, and I haven't had it plugged in for quite a while. I'll see about having it repaired, but I came here to check what some of my other options would be.

In a 6,000+ cubic foot space, am I going to need absurdly huge subs? Multiple large subs? Because that really isn't in the cards. I can't afford it, and my neighbors wouldn't like it. (townhouse, remember) What would you'all recommend as a way to get "pretty decent bass", without going crazy? Maybe put the sub quite close to the listening position, "near field" style? Go huge and cheap? Maybe do a combo of big-dumb-ported sub, and my existing smallish sealed sub?

50% TV/Movies, 30% Gaming, 20% Music. But I do want the music part to sound good, so I suppose I'm aiming for a balanced HT & Music system.

(My budget is $400-ish, unless someone can convince me otherwise. Let's pretend that fixing my ULW-10 will be free, for the purposes of this discussion.)

i like the big and ported idea
you may be a good diy candidate--a nice big ported box with (2)x 15 or 18 " drivers and a pro amp may just be ideal for you--esp if you could cross it over and cover the upper bass freq with the sub you have for tighter upper bass and the diy one for lower freq grunt&thump. just an idea...or you could add a hsu model with the turbocharger.

or totally blow your budget and grab a few deftech trinities which were designed for crazy huge spaces....

Thanks.

Maybe I don't really "require" anything heroic. Like I said, I was reasonably happy with my little sub, inadequate as it must have been. I don't tend to listen very loud. No where near reference levels, if I recall from my dB meter sessions years ago.

Can someone answer me this: If you are running an insufficiently sized sub, what are the symptoms? Is it just a question of levels? Can the sub do fine at lower listening levels, but poop out at higher ones? Or is it a question of sounding good, but not "feeling" like much of anything? Or, is there an actual qualitative difference that can be heard (at any level) when there's a sub vs. room mis-match? (Boominess, sloppiness, roll off of the lows?)

I saw another thread on pretty much the same subject (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1149170). It appears that his space is quite a bit smaller than mine, and his sub appears larger than mine was. Still, a very similar quandary. Someone in that thread mentioned putting the sub in the "near field". How is that typically accomplished? Does that mean placing it between the front speakers (below the center, for instance), or does it need to be even closer? Like right next to your listening chair?

Your best solution will be near field placement. Put the sub as close to the listening position (LP) as you can. I had an 8,800cf space and didn't try to fill it. Instead, I placed the sub about 5' from my LP. Every time you double the distance, you half the volume, so move the sub closer to you.

Basically, you are bathing your LP with bass and not caring how it sounds in the rest of the space.

Can someone answer me this: If you are running an insufficiently sized sub, what are the symptoms? Is it just a question of levels? Can the sub do fine at lower listening levels, but poop out at higher ones? Or is it a question of sounding good, but not "feeling" like much of anything? Or, is there an actual qualitative difference that can be heard (at any level) when there's a sub vs. room mis-match? (Boominess, sloppiness, roll off of the lows?)

An insufficient size sub can sound good but when called upon to deliver near or above it's capable limit will show signs of distortion, clipping and compression. Dynamic peaks which are common in many movies are a good example of this. The sub might be fine with the normal bass track until something heavy hits which is much louder and pushes past it's limit. This is generally in the lowest frequency range due to being harder for a sub to reproduce as it should sound. Ideally you want a sub with more headroom than you think you would ever need so when it is called upon to produce those peaks or the lowest frequencies at required levels it'll still be within the subs capability.

I saw another thread on pretty much the same subject (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1149170). It appears that his space is quite a bit smaller than mine, and his sub appears larger than mine was. Still, a very similar quandary. Someone in that thread mentioned putting the sub in the "near field". How is that typically accomplished? Does that mean placing it between the front speakers (below the center, for instance), or does it need to be even closer? Like right next to your listening chair?

Nearfield placement is simply close to the listening position, using the sub as an end table for instance. That's recommended a lot for people using subs in an apartment or places they can't crank the volume because the listening position and the sub are so close together the sub doesn't have to be calibrated to as high of a level to match the other speakers. It can also help in situations such as yours due to the close placement you aren't depending on the sub to fill the entire space and the effects of the room doesn't play as much of a roll.

Thanks for the replies.

It sounds like I will be okay. Apparently, my undersized sub was sufficiently powerful to satisfy me at the fairly low levels I tend to listen at. I'm sure it was working harder at those levels than it was "supposed to" (a properly sized sub would have been just loafing along), but it was up to the challenge. Easily, I think.

That said, I will think seriously about bringing the sub closer to my LP. The rest of my speakers are 6 to 8 feet from my LP, while the sub's old position was perhaps 15 feet away. If I use the ol' replace-the-end-table gambit, I can bring it almost as close as the other speakers.

I'll lose corner loading if I do that, however. Is that a worthwhile tradeoff? The position I am thinking of will be about 4 feet to the left of my left-front speaker, and about 3 feet from the front wall. If I have it fire inwards, it'll be shooting left to right across my sound stage, passing between my feet and the TV.

Is there any benefit (or drawback) to going with a down-firing sub in that sort of near field arrangement?

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=jaejw1

thisis my house.. a townhome aswell... and the loft opens up to the entire upstairs. looks down at the foyer.. and the theater area... the theater area is open in the back aswel to the kitchen and dinning room.. while the foyer opens to the staircase..

i have dual PREMIER ACOUSTIC PA120's.... and im completely satisfied with them,,, no complaints at all... fills the entire space nicely and evenly ..

paid 230 each.. one sub did the job.. but had to run it a lil hot... and now the duals.. i have turned down a lot and they still sound bettter and louder than the single sub..

my system has no problem playing the most bass heavy material... war of the worlds is played flawlessy without any distortion or exaggerated boominess...

now all of what im getting could be related mostly by placement