I'm new to SACD and DVD-A and just purchased a new oppo Player. I've been looking to try out this (new to me format) and found a new Hotel California DVD-A on Ebay .I purchased this disc for $52.00. The listing said he does not take paypal so he would ship the DVD-A to me and after I received the disc I would then Pay him. It will be a few days before this disc arrives because its being shipped from over sea (Ukraine) . But I noticed this same Ebayer has another listing for a new Hotel California DVD-A and knowing these are out of production and hard to find made me wonder if this was a bootleg copy . My question is can DVD-As be copied ?
And if there are bootlegs, is this common? When it arrives and before I pay for it How can I tell if this Hotel California DVD-A is Authentic ?

Dave

Yes, undoubtedly there are mechanisms to pirate DVD-A titles. Whether the "copy" has properly maintained the watermark, etc is another question. And that can affect playability.

Probably the easiest way to tell a pirate is look at the disk silk-screening - if it looks very badly done, it's either a pirated copy or something from Silverline ;) (sorry - had to - they deserve it).

Even without sophisticated software, analog re-digitizations and re-authoring of the disk could be done for someone with more time and less technology.

I don't think it is very common, but with certain disks OOP and getting stupid prices on the open markets, then it might get more common as time passes...

IMHO, AFAIK,

shinksma

Hi Dave

Yes, DVD-As can be copied. However if using software tools on the 'net to do the copying the result will still have the watermark protection (if it was used for the original). Watermarked copies will stop playing after 30 seconds or so if the player is one that checks for it. Your new player does not check so you won't know that it's legit just by the fact that it plays ok in your player.

I recommend posting again once you get it with the details of what it looks like (disc and package), any numbers on it etc...

EDIT: Oops, looks like shinksma already answered.

Thanks for the reply.

"Probably the easiest way to tell a pirate is look at the disk silk-screening - if it looks very badly done, it's either a pirated copy or something from Silverline (sorry - had to - they deserve it)."

Being knew at this I'm not familiar with Disk silk screening , what looks bad or good. I have ordered a number of SACD from Amazon that have not arrived yet but comparing a DVD-A and a SACD may not help me. I don't have any other DVD-A disc to compare to . I will take some pics and give some additional info when it arrives so that someone that owns a original can compare it .

Thank for your help

Dave

Yes, provide a link to a pic when you get the disc.
The disc I have is grey with the track listings on the right in a fancy script.
If you get the original case/artwork then it's probably the real thing.

Be aware that there are two official versions of Hotel DVDA out there. One has a grey label on the DVD, the other is white. I think the difference is that one only plays the surround (grey?) and the white can play both stereo and surround.

Which oppo player do you have? The 980 ignores watermarks. I am not sure about the other oppo models.

I emailed the ebayer and asked if this was an authentic original or a bootleg copy. In the listing he decribes it as new so I asked if its ever been played .
and were he optained his discs. This is his reply.

"Hi Dave.I have 5 DVD's of Hotel California.All this discs I've bought in an audio shop here in Ukraine. But we're really have a lot of copys here even in audio shops and it's hard to distinguish the original from a copy.That's why I dont't take the money first.All this DVD's looks like new but I can't to assure you in its originality.I've checked the disk before shipping so it was played once.Vadim"

From his answer Its probably a fake and its not new if its been played .

I have the BDP-83

I emailed the ebayer and asked if this was an authentic original or a bootleg copy. In the listing he decribes it as new so I asked if its ever been played .
and were he optained his discs. This is his reply.

"Hi Dave.I have 5 DVD's of Hotel California.All this discs I've bought in an audio shop here in Ukraine. But we're really have a lot of copys here even in audio shops and it's hard to distinguish the original from a copy.That's why I dont't take the money first.All this DVD's looks like new but I can't to assure you in its originality.I've checked the disk before shipping so it was played once.Vadim"

From his answer Its probably a fake and its not new if its been played .

If that's the eBay auction from Ukraine, obviously it's not "new" since it's opened. You can get this disc from USA sellers for the same price in "like new" condition.

Although his photos appear to be of a legit DVD-A release, I don't see any reason to risk it.

I think "bootleg" is sort of the wrong word, isn't it? You are concerned that the disc is simply a copy of the original, correct? Even if it is, provided it was copied correctly, it should be identical to the original. There is not going to be anything inferior about the sound quality. We're not talking cassette tape, here. A DVD-A is a DVD-A. Yes, $52.00 is a bunch to pay for a copy, especially if the disc is available used for a similar price but, provided it was copied correctly, you should get a DVD-A.

(I can't really speak to the watermark issue.)

I think "bootleg" is sort of the wrong word, isn't it? You are concerned that the disc is simply a copy of the original, correct? Even if it is, provided it was copied correctly, it should be identical to the original. There is not going to be anything inferior about the sound quality. We're not talking cassette tape, here. A DVD-A is a DVD-A. Yes, $52.00 is a bunch to pay for a copy, especially if the disc is available used for a similar price but, provided it was copied correctly, you should get a DVD-A.

(I can't really speak to the watermark issue.)

If it's a recordable DVD, the difference could be that it won't play at all or plays badly and deteriorates quickly over time. It's also priced as a genuine item, not a knock-off. An illegal copy is worth about nothing.

If it's a recordable DVD, the difference could be that it won't play at all................If the player is incapable of playing recorded DVDs (-R or +R) then, obviously, this could be an issue. But most players can play DVD-R and DVD+R.


.............or plays badlyIf copied correctly, it shouldn't "play badly". I have played copied DVD-As (shhhh!) and they play just fine.


...........and deteriorates quickly over time.This, I can't speak to. But I have never had any disc, CD or DVD, copy or original, deteriorate, so I do not know how much of a concern this really is. Of course, time is still passing so who knows.............


It's also priced as a genuine item, not a knock-off. An illegal copy is worth about nothing.I have no idea whether it is being sold as "genuine", but really isn't. Maybe the OP can tell us when he gets it. If you mean that an illegal copy is not worth anything from a collector's standpoint, I guess not. But if it plays it is worth at least that (whatever "that" is worth).

If copied correctly, it shouldn't "play badly". I have played copied DVD-As (shhhh!) and they play just fine.


This, I can't speak to. But I have never had any disc, CD or DVD, copy or original, deteriorate, so I do not know how much of a concern this really is. Of course, time is still passing so who knows.............
.
Badly burned DVDs present a wide range is compatibility issues with ALL players, and tend to degrade quickly over time. Makes no difference what format they are. Pirates using banks of duplication towers crank them out with no regard to media quality or burn quality. Really cheap Chinese DVD blanks are the worst of the worst, and this is what most pirates use.

There are a number of issues here:

1. is it a copy or original? One way of telling is the disc size. Hotel California is a litlle over 5gb, so if it arrives on a single layer dvd you know it's been copied and compressed.

2. Hotel California is watermarked: A watermarked copy won't play the dvd-audio portion in most players. It will play with some Oppos, but not others (those that have the mediatek chip will play it).

3. They may have gone around the watermark: To do this they'd take the dts or dolby digital from the original and re-encode it to mlp to re-author the dvd-audio portion without the watermark. You'd have a drop in quality for sure from this attempt to hide the fact it's a copy.

Badly burned DVDs present a wide range is compatibility issues with ALL players, and tend to degrade quickly over time. Makes no difference what format they are. Pirates using banks of duplication towers crank them out with no regard to media quality or burn quality. Really cheap Chinese DVD blanks are the worst of the worst, and this is what most pirates use.I understand.

It might get lost in the mail, too. :rolleyes:


1. is it a copy or original? One way of telling is the disc size. Hotel California is a litlle over 5gb, so if it arrives on a single layer dvd you know it's been copied and compressed.The video content, even stills, can be compressed such that the disc might fit on a standard DVD. But you can't compress the MLP audio. Again, it's either a DVD-A or it's not.


2. Hotel California is watermarked: A watermarked copy won't play the dvd-audio portion in most players. It will play with some Oppos, but not others (those that have the mediatek chip will play it).There's ways around watermarking.


3. They may have gone around the watermark: To do this they'd take the dts or dolby digital from the original and re-encode it to mlp to re-author the dvd-audio portion without the watermark. You'd have a drop in quality for sure from this attempt to hide the fact it's a copy.The MLP tracks can be extracted as individual hirez wavs and re-authored to MLP, too. But I doubt they'd do any of this. Hell, it'd be easier to simply copy it. (But who knows?)


Maybe it will self-destuct. ;)

I
There's ways around watermarking.


The MLP tracks can be extracted as individual hirez wavs and re-authored to MLP, too. But I doubt they'd do any of this. Hell, it'd be easier to simply copy it. (But who knows?)


Maybe it will self-destuct. ;)

It was my understanding that the watermark is retained by extracting the audio from a dvd-audio disc and re-authoring (even if you extract it as a wav).

It was my understanding that the watermark is retained by extracting the audio from a dvd-audio disc and re-authoring (even if you extract it as a wav).

Yup..this is correct..

It was my understanding that the watermark is retained by extracting the audio from a dvd-audio disc and re-authoring (even if you extract it as a wav).Yup..this is correct..In which case such a disc should play fine on players that check for the watermark. Correct? Or not? I thought that the watermark present in the original is NOT maintained in a plain ol' copy, therefore the copy will not play on players that check for a watermark.

the watermark carries on once you extract the tracks from a dvd-a, whether it be .mlp or .wav. So a copy won't play on any player that looks for a watermark. With those extracted mlp's or wav's you can re-author the disc, but the watermark is still retained so will only play on those players which ignore the watermark. Which brought up my point above that if the seller was selling a fake and wants it to appear real, his best bet would be to use the dts tracks to re-author the dvd-audio, that way there'd be no watermark at all.

The DVD-A Hotel California Disc Showed up today . I have included some Pics For all to see so that I can determine if Its Real or a copy.

The first thing I noticed is the Size of the Case is larger then I'm used to 5-3/8 wide By 7-1/2 tall. The Outside of the removable sleeve has printed on Top " This disc play on all DVD Players , DVD Audio, Advanced Resolution " and on the Bottom Right Corner "Hotel California".

The back of removable Sleeve has Picture of inside hotel and numbers in small print on the upper left side 7559-60509-9

Inside removable Sleeve has a Black and White Style Picture of the group with Names and position With A light green Tint in color.

The disc itself is white on the info side and a violet color to the data side .The disc also has a line that you can see in the pic . The only time I've seen a line on a cd is when I've made a copy and have not used all of the Disc Space.

Do you think is it a copy

Dave

The DVD-A Hotel California Disc Showed up today . I have included some Pics For all to see so that I can determine if Its Real or a copy.

The first thing I noticed is the Size of the Case is larger then I'm used to 5-3/8 wide By 7-1/2 tall. The Outside of the removable sleeve has printed on Top " This disc play on all DVD Players , DVD Audio, Advanced Resolution " and on the Bottom Right Corner "Hotel California".

The back of removable Sleeve has Picture of inside hotel and numbers in small print on the upper left side 7559-60509-9

Inside removable Sleeve has a Black and White Style Picture of the group with Names and position With A light green Tint in color.

The disc itself is white on the info side and a violet color to the data side .The disc also has a line that you can see in the pic . The only time I've seen a line on a cd is when I've made a copy and have not used all of the Disc Space.

Do you think is it a copy?Can you post a picture of the actual case? Those dimensions are similar to those of a standard DVD (in the US). But that might be the size of DVD-A cases in Europe.

Where is the line on the disc?

Hard to tell from the pictures, but the packaging looks legit to me. Is the paper thin or is it thick like photo paper? How does it sound?

Looks like a copy to me.

One way to be sure would be to play this disc in a DVDA player that recognizes watermarks such as a Denon player. After thirty seconds, you would know if it was a copy or not.

If the disc played past the 30 second mark, it is an original. If the disc stopped after 30 seconds, it is a copy.

I thought it came with a booklet?

http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ReviewID=1859

Booklet

Eight pages of credits, centrefold photo of The Eagles and lyrics to the title song.



And the disc, and cover looks different than this one...

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1591901

Which also list...

Disc content:
For DVD-Audio players:
Advanced Resolution Multi-Channel Surround Sound (96 KHz/24-Bit)
Advanced Resolution Stereo (192 KHz/24-Bit)
Song Lyrics
For DVD Video Players:
Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Sound.

Looks like a copy to me.Why's that?


One way to be sure would be to play this disc in a DVDA player that recognizes watermarks such as a Denon player. After thirty seconds, you would know if it was a copy or not.

If the disc played past the 30 second mark, it is an original. If the disc stopped after 30 seconds, it is a copy.Yeah, but there was some concern that the MLP tracks may be reauthored from DD or DTS tracks.

Can they be copied without breaking the encryption? If it is still encrypted, the watermark will still work fine, right?

This may have not ever been watermarked, anyway.



I thought it came with a booklet?

http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ReviewID=1859

Booklet

Eight pages of credits, centrefold photo of The Eagles and lyrics to the title song.

And the disc, and cover looks different than this one...

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1591901

Which also list...

Disc content:
For DVD-Audio players:
Advanced Resolution Multi-Channel Surround Sound (96 KHz/24-Bit)
Advanced Resolution Stereo (192 KHz/24-Bit)
Song Lyrics
For DVD Video Players:
Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Sound.Who knows how a European (or Ukrainian) version was packaged and what it came with.



The crease down the middle of the 'suspect' cover does look suspicious, especially if that is because it is a folded photocopy on photo paper.

But the proof is in the pudding, even if it IS a copy. How does it sound, Daveholl? How much did you pay for it? Not that it is conclusive, but does the disc definitely have DVD-A and DVD-V layers?

It's a burned copy, you can see the burned area on the data side. So yes, it's pirated.

Here are some more Pics . The disc Plays ok. It has a video and audio layer . The Paper is thick photo paper . No Booklet . The line that Im talking about is the burned area on the data side that is 3/8 of an inch in from the outside of the disc and circles the entire disc.
I have not Paid for it yet But agreed to pay 52.00 to the seller after the disc Arrived.

Dave

I can't imagine why anyone would pay $52 for a pirated copy, but that's up to you. This DVD-A is not that hard to come by.

IMHO, it is either a very good pirated copy (still a pirate), or the German plant has decided to press additional copies, using different cases (you can see that the tray liner is a squeezed scan of the original, with a logo missing) and different raw media (looks like they've used regular printable DVD blanks: the "real" DVD-A is white all the way to the center hole). Not unheard of, I suppose, but the likelihood is low.

I would suggest that you reply back to the seller that the DVD-A appears to be an illicit copy, and you will not be paying for it - if the seller wants it back, I guess you have to pay to ship it back?

IMHO,

shinksma

This is very obviously not a pressed copy, but a burned copy.

FWIW, DVD-A does not inherently use "2 layers" on a disc. Just 2 separate navigation systems. From looking at it, I doubt this is a dual layer disc. Putting it on a PC and checking the total file size would answer that. If it is a dual layer disc, it's a very cheap one. Looking at the files themselves will tell you if it's a re-encoded rip. The DVD-V portion will have VOB files, the DVD-A portion will have AOB files normally. DVD-A content will be in the "AUDIO_TS" folder, DVD-V content will be in the "VIDEO_TS" folder.

All of which is moot because you've bought a pirated copy at full retail.

This DVD-A is not that hard to come by.Laugh. Oops. This whole time I thought the reason the buyer purchased the disc from the Ukraine was because the disc is hard to find.


FWIW, DVD-A does not inherently use "2 layers" on a disc.If you are referring to my use of the term "layer", forgive me. I just meant two formats. MLP (AUDIO_TS) and DD/DTS (VIDEO_TS).


Looking at the files themselves will tell you if it's a re-encoded rip. The DVD-V portion will have VOB files, the DVD-A portion will have AOB files normally. DVD-A content will be in the "AUDIO_TS" folder, DVD-V content will be in the "VIDEO_TS" folder.Except that there was some concern that the disc's MLP tracks might simply be reauthored DD or DTS tracks.

Except that there was some concern that the disc's MLP tracks might simply be reauthored DD or DTS tracks.

True enough. the AOB container can have any type of audio stream.

This is very obviously not a pressed copy, but a burned copy.

FWIW, DVD-A does not inherently use "2 layers" on a disc. Just 2 separate navigation systems. From looking at it, I doubt this is a dual layer disc. Putting it on a PC and checking the total file size would answer that. If it is a dual layer disc, it's a very cheap one. Looking at the files themselves will tell you if it's a re-encoded rip. The DVD-V portion will have VOB files, the DVD-A portion will have AOB files normally. DVD-A content will be in the "AUDIO_TS" folder, DVD-V content will be in the "VIDEO_TS" folder.

All of which is moot because you've bought a pirated copy at full retail.

I Put the disc in my PC . The total file size In the Audio_TS Folder is 4.23 GB and it has AOB files . The Video_TS Folder Size is 908 MB with VOB files

Dave

I Put the disc in my PC . The total file size In the Audio_TS Folder is 4.23 GB and it has AOB files . The Video_TS Folder Size is 908 MB with VOB files

Dave

That at least matches what the original disc has. So it's a dual-layer disc and probably a direct rip and copy of the original.

You'd have to play it with a player that displays the audio type to know for sure if it's the correct audio type, but it appears to be.

What it's not is a legitimate copy or a "new" copy. If the case and artwork are worth $50, great. The disc is worth about $2.

If you have a Creative soundcard with the dvd-a player on your pc you can see if it plays the disc. The original would play, a copy would stop after 15 seconds or so.

Yeah, but there was some concern that the MLP tracks may be reauthored from DD or DTS tracks.

Can they be copied without breaking the encryption? If it is still encrypted, the watermark will still work fine, right?

This may have not ever been watermarked, anyway.



Excellent point. I did a test. If the audio_ts file was a result of upsampling and upconverting the disc's DTS files, the audio_ts folder would be 2.11 GB.

If this was the case, there would be no watermark in the resulting MLP files.

This is an awful lot of trouble to go through to create a bootleg copy of a DVD-A disc. One would need to sell a boatload to break even on this proposition.

It's a burned copy , period. Like someone pointed out someone could've went as far to take plain cd, reencode it into a mlp 5.1 mix and author a dvd-audio. Mean you may not be listening to an acutal dvd-audio at all. And for $50 some bucks uh no way. Like someone pointed out this disc isn't that rare yet. Hell I'll sell ya my disc for $50 lol. This thread is just crazy.

I see remixed "dvd-audio" disks all the time. No way I'd pay for what you have there. I wouldn't pay $5 let alone $50.

Another thing, I didn't do this test but I expect a conversion from the DD files to MLP would be smaller still than the 2.11GB resulting from the conversion of the DTS files.

I Put the disc in my PC . The total file size In the Audio_TS Folder is 4.23 GB and it has AOB files . The Video_TS Folder Size is 908 MB with VOB files

Dave

Hotel California is 5.12GB (ISO) which is about right compared to what you have. Amazing DVD-A btw, I have the 192khz tracks ripped to FLAC.
Not to derail the thread but has anyone heard the "McIntosh DVD-AUDIO Spectacular Reference Disc"? Amazing sound...