I am in the market for a really good DVD recorder. Here is what I am looking for and want to do:
I’m not too concerned about playback as I have a Denon 1940ci, an awesome little guy he is.

What I want to do is clean up the mess of VHS tapes I have by copying them over to DVD. (Takes up less space, which is the whole purpose of the project).
I also want to be able to record from TV on very rare occasion.

One important factor is that I want to be able to create chapters and title them and menus if possible on at least DVD-R discs which is what I use 98% of the time. I also require the ability to do selective recording. What I mean by that is to record things that may have had commercials that I do not want to copy over. I don’t want to copy over the commercials. I also may have 2 or 3 different programs on one tape in varying places and would want to put the like programs together with each other.

What I have had and found so far:

I had a couple of Panasonic DVD recorders and found them to be garbage. The most recent one started acting up 1 year after I got it to the point that it would not play or record anything, but once in a blue moon and then it would screw that up as well. So I won’t even consider another Panasonic. (I have heard from several sources that the new models from Panny have the same problem).

I do have a 4-head Hi Fi VCR in good shape still. What I am wondering is if it would be better to get a stand-alone DVD recorder with a tuner or a combo DVD recorder/VCR with tuner? I do not have a cable box so I know I would need a tuner if I want to record from the TV. I’m wondering if a combo will let me do selective recording in any way? I have been told that the Toshiba line should suit me fine, but I am open to other suggestions from anyone but Panasonic and Sony. (Sony is just too proprietary to work with my gear I have found).

I’m thinking a combo would be more convenient, but only if it fulfills my requirements I listed.

Any “store-bought” tapes that won’t copy to DVD will be replaced with the purchased DVD version, which is better anyway, but I am trying to avoid spending a ton of money just doing that.

Budget is up to $300 max. Less is better of course.

Thanks


PS. (I was looking at subwoofers, but put that on hold because the VHS mess is priority at this stage. Must get it cleaned up).:o:)

I am in the market for a really good DVD recorder. Here is what I am looking for and want to do:

. . . clean up the mess of VHS tapes I have by copying them over to DVD

. . . I also want to be able to record from TV on very rare occasion.

. . . I want to be able to create chapters and title them and menus

. . . I also require the ability to do selective recording . . . I don’t want to copy . . . commercials. I also may have 2 or 3 different programs on one tape in varying places and would want to put the like programs together with each other.

. . . I had a couple of Panasonic DVD recorders and found them to be garbage. The most recent one started acting up 1 year after I got it to the point that it would not play or record anything, but once in a blue moon and then it would screw that up as well. So I won’t even consider another Panasonic. (I have heard from several sources that the new models from Panny have the same problem).

I do have a 4-head Hi Fi VCR in good shape still.

. . . I am wondering is if it would be better to get a stand-alone DVD recorder with a tuner or a combo DVD recorder/VCR with tuner? I do not have a cable box so I know I would need a tuner if I want to record from the TV. I’m wondering if a combo will let me do selective recording in any way? I have been told that the Toshiba line should suit me fine, but I am open to other suggestions from anyone but Panasonic and Sony . . .

I’m thinking a combo would be more convenient, but only if it fulfills my requirements . . .

Budget is up to $300 max . . .

The only products that meet your requirements are HDD/DVD recorders. Connect your VCR to an input and transfer videotaped recordings to the hard drive, edit the material and then high-speed dub to DVD. (I own four Philips and Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders--all outstanding products!)

VCR/DVD combo recorders--Toshiba (Funai) or any other brand--will not meet your requirements.

Many of your questions come up frequently in this Forum. Here are two posts (from yesterday and today) that address a number of your questions and observations:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16535163#post16535163

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16543814#post16543814

As an owner of sixteen functional ES and EZ series Panasonics I will respond to some of your observations.

Panasonic DVD recorders have good build quality and produce recordings with outstanding picture quality.

With regard to dubbing/copying, eight of my Panasonic ES series combo recorders are outstanding dubbing workhorses producing direct videotape transfers of the best quality as long as dubbing/copying is initiated from the FUNCTIONS menu. Current Panasonic EZ series combo recorders and some earlier ES series combo recorders (i.e., the 2005 DMR-ES40V) are limited to the front panel control for dubbing/copying when using the built-in VHS mechanism. If you dubbed/copied videotaped recordings to DVD using the front panel control I can understand your frustration. The best direct-dubbing Panasonic workhorses are identified in one of the (above) linked posts.

The last domestic ES series Panasonics were produced in 2006. The last domestic Panasonic HDD/DVD/VCR combo was also produced in 2006. Panasonic's domestic hard drive models are very expensive on the secondary market, if and when they may be found.

Panasonic's 2007-2008 EZ series machines have well-documented bugs and design flaws. A number of workarounds are described in various threads. (I own five EZ series Panasonics. The best performer among my EZ series machines is the 2008 DMR-EZ28, the entry-level DVD recorder with digital tuner and HDMI.)

The Panasonic reliability problems you describe are those routinely arising when the DVD Drive rubber hub or lens cleaning is overdue. Frequent cleaning is necessary in warm, dusty or smoking environments or where discs are handled with a finger through the center hole. A Panasonic must be maintained regularly in order to provide good service. Cleaning procedures are described in other threads. More serious problems arise from overheating when a Panasonic is closed up in a cabinet or stacked with other heat-producing equipment.

The only products that meet your requirements are HDD/DVD recorders. Connect your VCR to an input and transfer videotaped recordings to the hard drive, edit the material and then high-speed dub to DVD. (I own four Philips and Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders--all outstanding products!)

In my earlier post I mention that my four Philips and Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders are "all outstanding products!"

What are these "outstanding products?" The Philips 3575, 3576 and Magnavox 2080 and 2160.

Do I recommend purchasing these products? For the most part, yes.

Where may they be purchased? The Philips 3575, 3576 and the Magnavox 2080 are no longer current models.

What about the Magnavox 2160? My Magnavox 2160 is from an early production run, August 2008. There are later production runs, the most recent of which has added an "A" to the model name. This product is available exclusively at walmart.com. The walmart.com listing does not differentiate between the original model, the Magnavox H2160MW9, and the "A" model, the Magnavox H2160MW9A. Recently there have been some problems identified with the "A" version of this model. Recent reports indicate that the "A" version is the only version currently shipping. For this reason I am witholding a recommendation of this product until the manufacturer (Funai) produces a firmware update or otherwise remedies the problem(s) with this product. That has not yet occured.

For a wealth of information concerning this and the other Philips/Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders, and updates concerning the Magnavox 2160 "A" situation, consult this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940657

The Magnavox H2160 would have been the ideal solution for you. Unfortunately the mfr made a boneheaded firmware change to the second production run (known as the "H2160A"). These defective units are the only ones currently available thru Wal*Mart, and the company that actually makes these recorders is not known for fixing their screwups by providing downloadable updates. So we can no longer recommend this model. If you can find the earlier version dated 2008 from a reliable eBay dealer, they're great, but avoid the current version.

Alternatives are few. Like you, I have a huge number of VHS tapes I need transferred to DVD so I can reclaim my living space. I have been steadily knocking these transfers off over the last few years, and can say I heartily agree with DigaDo that you will not be satisfied with anything less than a DVD recorder with hard drive: there's just no other way to go short of using a PC, which is much more tedious. Sadly, the USA market did not buy DVD/HDD recorders so all but the Magnavox have been pulled from stores. Those of us who need them now resort to eBay for overstock or second hand machines. Of these, the best current recommendation is the Pioneer 460 which is available periodically thru 4 or 5 Canadian clearance dealers on eBay. The 460 is a 2008 model, routinely sold as "new open box" for about $239-269 + $35 shipping from Canada to USA. It is a wonderful machine, similar to the Magnavox but with improved features for recording/editing VHS dubs. It does not have the ATSC tuner which will be necessary in two weeks for "free" TV: for this you need to connect an outboard tuner (most of us here use the Zenith DTT901 or Channel Master CM-7000). You can order two $40 gov't subsidy coupons from the DTV hotline which brings the price of these accessory tuners down to about $20 each.

Of course you could wait it out, and see if if a firmware update or recall turns up for the Magnavox. It is more convenient in that it has the ATSC tuner integrated in the recorder, and is in fact the only DVD/HDD recorder with integrated ATSC. But it may be a long wait, and the machine was already discontinued once before (Wal*Mart put in an 11th-hour reorder, which may be why the second run is problematic.) If you want to ensure you'll get a machine good for your task, opt for the Pioneer + tuner or perhaps look for a Phillips 3576 (sister to the Magnavox without the defects) on eBay. All these DVD/HDD units get scarcer and more expensive as time passes.

Note that NONE of the available new or used recorders will allow you to create thumbnails for chapters. You can create thumbnails for titles, meaning if you have five half-hour sitcom episodes on a disc each one will appear separately in the disc menu with its own thumbnail. But you cannot further break that down into a submenu directly accessing chapters: you can only add "invisible" chapter marks within each title, which you can skip to using the chapter buttons on a DVD player. If you want to get wild and crazy with disc menus, you can always rip the recorder DVDs into a PC authoring program later. (You will doubtless hear of the legendary long-discontinued Toshiba XS recorders, which were the only ones to offer chapter thumbnail authoring: avoid these. Finding a used Toshiba in good, durable condition at a reasonable price is almost impossible, they are best left to those who already own them and know how to carefully shop a used one.)

As much as I'd like to flog the merits of the Toshiba RD-XS35 in this regard, I think CitiBear is right that it's sadly a machine which has become really difficult to find in decent condition. Yes, it'll do what you want very well with its HDD and superior editing and authoring features, including custom chapter thumbnail creation, but those who have one are loathe to part with it, and usually the few you find on a well-known auction site often are banged up and/or have no remote, which always makes me suspect someone is trying to fence the fruits of a B & E.

What I want to do is clean up the mess of VHS tapes I have by copying them over to DVD. (Takes up less space, which is the whole purpose of the project)....Any “store-bought” tapes that won’t copy to DVD will be replaced
Copying the tapes over to DVD will preserve the video better. Depending on the number of tapes you have, now might be a good time to buy a TBC. It's also a fun toy. I got one recently and it solved one particular problem we've all read about:)

The Magnavox H2160 would have been the ideal solution for you. Unfortunately the mfr made a boneheaded firmware change to the second production run (known as the "H2160A"). These defective units are the only ones currently available thru Wal*Mart, and the company that actually makes these recorders is not known for fixing their screwups by providing downloadable updates. So we can no longer recommend this model. If you can find the earlier version dated 2008 from a reliable eBay dealer, they're great, but avoid the current version.

Alternatives are few. Like you, I have a huge number of VHS tapes I need transferred to DVD so I can reclaim my living space. I have been steadily knocking these transfers off over the last few years, and can say I heartily agree with DigaDo that you will not be satisfied with anything less than a DVD recorder with hard drive: there's just no other way to go short of using a PC, which is much more tedious. Sadly, the USA market did not buy DVD/HDD recorders so all but the Magnavox have been pulled from stores. Those of us who need them now resort to eBay for overstock or second hand machines. Of these, the best current recommendation is the Pioneer 460 which is available periodically thru 4 or 5 Canadian clearance dealers on eBay. The 460 is a 2008 model, routinely sold as "new open box" for about $239-269 + $35 shipping from Canada to USA. It is a wonderful machine, similar to the Magnavox but with improved features for recording/editing VHS dubs. It does not have the ATSC tuner which will be necessary in two weeks for "free" TV: for this you need to connect an outboard tuner (most of us here use the Zenith DTT901 or Channel Master CM-7000). You can order two $40 gov't subsidy coupons from the DTV hotline which brings the price of these accessory tuners down to about $20 each.

Of course you could wait it out, and see if if a firmware update or recall turns up for the Magnavox. It is more convenient in that it has the ATSC tuner integrated in the recorder, and is in fact the only DVD/HDD recorder with integrated ATSC. But it may be a long wait, and the machine was already discontinued once before (Wal*Mart put in an 11th-hour reorder, which may be why the second run is problematic.) If you want to ensure you'll get a machine good for your task, opt for the Pioneer + tuner or perhaps look for a Phillips 3576 (sister to the Magnavox without the defects) on eBay. All these DVD/HDD units get scarcer and more expensive as time passes.

Note that NONE of the available new or used recorders will allow you to create thumbnails for chapters. You can create thumbnails for titles, meaning if you have five half-hour sitcom episodes on a disc each one will appear separately in the disc menu with its own thumbnail. But you cannot further break that down into a submenu directly accessing chapters: you can only add "invisible" chapter marks within each title, which you can skip to using the chapter buttons on a DVD player. If you want to get wild and crazy with disc menus, you can always rip the recorder DVDs into a PC authoring program later. (You will doubtless hear of the legendary long-discontinued Toshiba XS recorders, which were the only ones to offer chapter thumbnail authoring: avoid these. Finding a used Toshiba in good, durable condition at a reasonable price is almost impossible, they are best left to those who already own them and know how to carefully shop a used one.)

I'm not concerned about getting wild and crazy with disc menus. Perhaps there is confusion with the definitions of chapters and titles.
All I want is to be able to record vhs tapes with episodes on them, editing out as much commercials as I can and separating the episodes. That way I can select the episode I want to watch without having to fast-forward through 3 hours or something.
The Panasonics will only do that (in very complicated fashion I might add), on DVD-RAM discs. DVD-RAM discs are next to impossible to find, are very expensive and will not play on anything but a Panasonic DVD recorder.
I forget what model of Panny I have currently, but all I know is that I do not trust them.
I'm not totally sold on them yet, but I was looking at the Toshiba 670 or the 570 (without VCR). I was reading that they will do chaptering and title menuing (if that is a word) on DVD-R discs which is the most common. If hooking up my old VCR to a DVD Recorder is better than a combo unit then I would certainly do that.
I'm very confused now with all the back and forth info on Pannys. I'm also now interested in one of those HDD/DVD machines everyone talks about. Where can I get one of those? How does the editing work on those?
I don't do business with Walmart (why would I want to buy a defective machine anyway)? I also can not do E-bay.
(Putting video on my PC and then editing it and making DVDs from that is far too much work and I"m not sure I can even do it as I do not have the equipment or software which I am sure is at least $1000).

I wanted this to be simple?:confused:

Ok, if I read correctly there are no HDD/DVD-R machines available in the US. (typical).
The only way to get one is through E-bay. Sadly, I can not do E-bay because I'll get ripped off and I have no recourse. I don't even venture over to E-bay, I'm frightened of it. I also can not get a PayPal account anymore. (I tried it and did not like it. I'm not so sure I would want one afterall. Rather unsafe).
I'm wondering if the Toshiba DR670 or DR570 (very soon to be released to the market) are any good and will work for me or if it might be better to try to find some professional service? (I don't know if there are any services in my area or how much that would cost. I don't think they would even do the work anyway). That said, a Service is probably not worth even thinking about.
If the Pannys were better built and the manuals better written and if they ditched the DVD-RAM requirements, I would consider. Although in speaking with a couple of big retailers (CF and Vanns) they said they get a fair amount of returns on the Pannys. (It's also strange that the Pannys are more expensive. I know one gets what one pays for, but....)
I don't mean to blindly knock the Pannys, it's just that I do not trust them after my experiences. Plus the fact that they require RAM discs for any titling and what have you. (I'll look at my Panny tonight and find the model. Maybe that model had problems, I don't know).

I wanted this to be simple?:confused:

You and everyone else who drops by this forum.;)

Unfortunately it isn't "simple". Transferring VHS requires a fairly sophisticated recorder to get really good results, and sophisticated recorders cost money, which no one wanted to spend, so they got pulled from the USA market leaving mostly crap behind. You and the rest of us are stuck in a world where the only real source of good recorders (new or used) is eBay. If you don't want to deal with eBay, then you're screwed, and that's the end of it. I'm not trying to be harsh, I understand your suspicion of eBay, but the reality is you cannot find anything decent in stores: the USA recorder market has been in the toilet since 2006. If you cannot access eBay yourself, find a friend or family member with an account.

The new recorders on the market right now are all trash: I wouldn't touch the Toshibas you mentioned if I got them for free (they aren't even made by Toshiba: none of these brands actually makes anything themselves anymore). Your Panasonic is about as good as it gets, if yours is not working follow DigaDos advice to fix it. Although I think you still wouldn't like it even if it worked perfectly: you want total control over how the DVD turns out, and you cannot achieve this unless the recorder has a hard drive. This applies with ANY DVD-only recorder, new or old, Panasonic or other brand. ALL units that record directly from your VCR onto the DVD are limited in what they can do as far as editing and chapters: without a hard drive, the machine is forced to create a generic "standard" DVD-R which puts chapter marks in at random intervals and may or may not allow custom thumbnails. As you've noted, the only way around this is to use RAM discs, which add their own issues. (The new Toshibas you're considering offer somewhat more flexibility than usual on "direct DVD-R" but use tricks to accomplish it that work better on some discs than others, plus they have a number of operational quirks).

By contrast, a DVD/hard drive recorder acts like a simplified, dedicated PC video workstation. You dub your VHS to the hard drive, and because it isn't a dvd yet you can then make all sorts of trims and edits and custom thumbnails and custom chapter locations. When you're completely satisfied with your dubs, you tell the machine to burn the DVDs. It takes about ten minutes to burn at high-speed, each DVD-R will faithfully carry over the exact chapter locations, thumbnails and edits you made on the hard drive. Plus, since your recordings stay on the hard drive until you delete them, its very easy to make revisions or different versions, and to make extra copies. And you have about 80 hours capacity on the hard drive at SP speed: that holds a lot of tape clips to make compilation DVDs and assures you never run out of space for a timer recording.

Unfortunately the average $300 price put off most buyers, who didn't understand the value of the hard drive feature (its very hard to explain until you use it, then you can't believe no one wants it!) Human nature is to be drawn to the most obvious choice: people look at DVD/VHS combo decks and think "eureka! this is what I need!", so thats what sells. When they get it home and realize its actually a complicated annoying machine that frustrates them from making custom DVD copies of their tapes, they give up and forget the whole idea. Its caused a domino effect, so severe that DVD recorders are all but dead in this country.

And THAT'S why we're pushing you to go against your nature, and try your luck on eBay: you need a DVD/HDD recorder, and that's the only source of them. I can't speak for others, but over the last 5 years I have never been screwed by an eBay transaction involving a DVD/HDD recorder. Individuals who own these tend to be fairly honest. And if you buy from an actual dealer who specializes in these things, and offers a return policy, theres very little risk. I have purchased over a dozen "new open box" Pioneers over the last three years for myself, friends and family thru Canadian eBay vendors and never once had an issue. Other AVS members have bought from Panasonic and Phillips eBay clearance outlets with similar luck. I really think you would do OK.

Otherwise, your only option is to use your PC and authoring software: there's no way to make chapter marks that stay in place using DVD-R recorders that don't have hard drives. Before going that route, I would even suggest opting for the defective new Magnavox available from Wal*Mart: if you absolutely, positively cannot shop eBay then get a brand new Magnavox. The quality and functionality of these is very good, and the defect can be worked around if you have patience. What it boils down to is a software glitch that prevents you doing anything with the DVD drive if the Magnavox has any programs entered in its timer. If you don't do a lot of timer recordings, its simple enough to delete all your timer settings whenever you want to burn a DVD, then program the timer again afterwards. The defect does not affect anything you've recorded on the hard drive, or cause any damage: its simply a design error that locks out the DVD drive if the timer window is programmed to record a future show. If you can live with that, the Magnavox is an excellent machine at a reasonable price thats available new from Wal*Mart with a liberal return/refund policy. Why not just try it and return it if you don't like it? At this point you have nothing to lose, especially if eBay is out of the question. Compared to the ridiculously overpriced Toshibas, which come from the same factory as the Magnavox, the H2160 is the bergain of the century. And aside from the conflict between timer and DVD drive, the Magnavox has the ONLY tuner-timer circuit that actually works reliably under ATSC: another big point in its favor.

I'm afraid in the current recorder marketplace, one has to choose their poison: one way or another, you have to compromise in the purchase experience or the recorder itself.

You and everyone else who drops by this forum.;)

Unfortunately it isn't "simple". Transferring VHS requires a fairly sophisticated recorder to get really good results, and really good recorders cost money, which no one wanted to spend, so they got pulled from the USA market leaving mostly crap behind. You and the rest of us are stuck in a world where the only real source of good recorders (new or used) is eBay. If you don't want to deal with eBay, then you're screwed, and that's the end of it. I'm not trying to be harsh, I understand your suspicion of eBay, but the reality is you cannot find anything decent in stores: the USA recorder market has been in the toilet since 2006.

Yes, and it's sad really. I'm not taking your post as harsh at all. Your offering good info in an effort to prevent me from possibly making a big mistake and I appreciate it. I don't know how to protect myself with eBay. Are the "eBay stores" safe? IF so are there any that I can go to to get what I need for a DVD recorder?

The new recorders on the market right now are all trash: I wouldn't touch the Toshibas you mentioned if I got them for free (they aren't even made by Toshiba: none of these brands actually makes anything themselves anymore). Your Panasonic is about as good as it gets, if yours is not working follow DigaDos advice to fix it. Although I think you still wouldn't like it even if it worked perfectly: you want total control over how the DVD turns out, and you cannot achieve this unless the recorder has a hard drive. Units that record directly from VHS onto the DVD are limited in what they can do as far as editing and chapters: without a hard drive, the machine is forced to create a generic "standard" DVD which puts chapter marks in at random intervals and may or may not allow custom thumbnails. As you've noted, the only way around this is to use RAM discs, which add their own issues.

Am I looking for "total control over how the DVD turns out"? I just want two simple things, one of which I can do myself. That is the editing of commercials: All I have to do is record at regular speed while monitoring and then just pause the recorder and unpause at the right times. Sure it takes a long time, but it's the only way I know. The only other thing I want is to seperate the episodes. Just a simple menu of any thumbnail the machine puts on will do. Thumbnails or not, just a simple menu is all I want, but on a regular DVD-R or something other than a RAM disc. I would accept the random chapter thing too if I figure correctly, maybe I can get close seeing as how one can set the intervals of the chapters (ie: 5 min, 10min, 15min, 30min) I will take your advice though and stay away from the Toshibas.

By contrast, a DVD/hard drive recorder acts like a simplified, dedicated PC video workstation. You dub your VHS to the hard drive, and because it isn't a dvd yet you can then make all sorts of trims and edits and custom thumbnails and custom chapter locations. When you're completely satisfied with your dubs, you tell the machine to burn the DVDs. It takes about ten minutes to burn at high-speed, each DVD-R will faithfully carry over the exact chapter locations, thumbnails and edits you made on the hard drive. Plus, since your recordings stay on the hard drive until you delete them, its very easy to make revisions or different versions, and to make extra copies. And you have about 80 hours capacity on the hard drive at SP speed: that holds a lot of tape clips to make compilation DVDs and assures you never run out of space for a timer recording.

I like that! So you just do all that from the remote or something, no PC needed?

Unfortunately the average $300 price put off most buyers, who didn't understand the value of the hard drive feature (its very hard to explain until you use it, then you can't believe no one wants it!) Human nature is to be drawn to the most obvious choice: people look at DVD/VHS combo decks and think "eureka! this is what I need!", so thats what sells. When they get it home and realize its actually a complicated annoying machine that frustrates them from making custom DVD copies of their tapes, they give up and forget the whole idea. Its caused a domino effect, so severe that DVD recorders are all but dead in this country.

I'd have no problem paying $300 for that!:)


And THAT'S why we're pushing you to go against your nature, and try your luck on eBay: you need a DVD/HDD recorder, and that's the only source of them. I can't speak for others, but over the last 5 years I have never been screwed by an eBay transaction involving a DVD/HDD recorder. Individuals who own these tend to be fairly honest. And if you buy from an actual dealer who specializes in these things, and offers a return policy, theres very little risk. I have purchased over a dozen "new open box" Pioneers over the last three years for myself, friends and family thru Canadian eBay vendors and never once had an issue. Other AVS members have bought from Panasonic and Phillips eBay clearance outlets with similar luck. I really think you would do OK.

Can you recommend any actual dealers I can check out? I'd be willing to do that at least. I really like the HDD/DVD-R idea.

Otherwise, your only option is to use your PC and authoring software: there's no way to make chapter marks that stay in place using current DVD-R recorders that don't have hard drives.

Yeah, I don't have the where-with-all for the PC method.

I wanted this to be simple?:confused:

You're about 3-4 years too late. ;) DVD recording is now at the age of "beggars can't be choosers" because the recorders are coming to the end of their product sales life. Hard drive based recording has just about killed it, so what you see now is all you have to work with.

eBay is safe if you have a recourse like Paypal or something where you can file a complaint. And if the seller has excellent feedback. If they have like 1000+ feedback ratings with no or next to no negatives, they'll do everything they can to protect it by offering you good products and good service. I've had sellers bend over backwards when something went wrong all because they didn't want me entering a negative rating. They treat it like the word of God.

I wouldn't buy anything that expensive from someone with a feedback rating of less than say, 50 or so.

I don't have the where-with-all for the PC method.
Download a copy of VideoReDo TVSuite. They give a 2 week trial period. You need to email them for a key so you can get past a 15-minute time limit. If you have some AVI's, mpegs, or transport streams on your computer, see if you can make a DVD. I did and it's very easy. I love the program. Not sure you can do chapter marks, that seems to be much more involved. If you can figure out how to make DVD's with the software, buy a video capture card and you're in business.

BTW, I have to say the OP is lucky he even has an option for HDD recorders at this point. Probably by the end of this year when the supply is finally exhausted, we're just going to tell posters, "Sorry, dude, you're SOL." It's going to get ugly. :(

I bought a new EH55 from an ebay seller (who had a few) using Paypal fairly recently, and I've not had any problems. The outfit was rated as very reputable, though - I made sure of that first. They were very good on following up on my satisfaction after I made the purchase, too. It had a set price and wasn't open for bidding, though.

If you weren't so anti-Panny, I'd say there's the EH57, EH67 & EH68 from www.world-import.com (the EH57 & 67, at least, are modeled after the EH55, so they should be better than the newer stuff. The EH55 has a very good track record).

BTW, I have to say the OP is lucky he even has an option for HDD recorders at this point. Probably by the end of this year when the supply is finally exhausted, we're just going to tell posters, "Sorry, dude, you're SOL." It's going to get ugly. :(And that's when I start offering up some of my old models for bidding on ebay. ;)

I've updated the final paragraph of my last response to offer some clarification on the defects the current version of the Magnavox DVD/HDD unit has. Please look that over, it may be a compromise you're willing to make in order to buy from a "safe" national chain store.

Are you sure you have been operating your Panasonic recorder correctly in the past? While non-HDD recorders have limitations, if your biggest concern is separating TV episodes into individual menu items on the DVD, you should have been able to do at least that. Making separate DVD items relies on the "stop" button, if you plan ahead and hit "stop" at the end of each episode recording, it should show up as an individual item on the finalized DVD-R. At least, that's how its worked on every non-HDD recorder I've used over the years:confused:. If you use "pause" all the way thru the tape, you will get one giant recording resulting in one menu item on the finalized DVD-R. The thing to remember is, pause for commercials, but stop to make individual shows (menu items).

The advantage of using a DVD/HDD recorder is that you can be much more precise in cutting out the commercials and separating episodes, because you do it afterwards instead of having that "sudden death" pressure of riding the dub in real-time. This editing ease also applies to any new recordings you make from the tuner: you cut out the commercials on the HDD before burning the DVD, freeing up space to make better-quality recordings on the DVD. (All points where you cut commercials out result in a forced chapter mark, but thats almost always where you'd want one anyway, and you can add more of your own within scenes.) Another advantage of unattended recording from VCR to HDD is you can break that one big recording up in any way that pleases you: individual episodes, plus a "highlights" section, anything you imagine really. Much more convenient than huddling next to the VCR and DVD recorder during the whole dub, riding the stop and pause buttons.:D

If you decide to try the eBay route, the best value is the Canadian Pioneer 460 at roughly $300 delivered. The Panasonic EH55 with HDD recommended by Rammitinski is a fine unit but sells for nearly double that price on eBay because of its fancy timer system, which may or may not be usable after June 12th, so it isn't worth the huge price premium unless you know what that elaborate timer feature is and can make some use of it. If you prefer a Panasonic, a new "global market" Panasonic EH67 that sells for about $395 from US import dealers is a much better value than a three year old EH55: the EH67 is an EH55 minus the fancy timer.

Have we confused you enough now? The PC is starting to sound attractive, isn't it?:rolleyes:Just kidding. The DVD/HDD machine is still much easier than the PC for most users, because you just sit on the sofa and do all your editing by remote control on your big TV screen.

If the Pannys were better built and the manuals better written and if they ditched the DVD-RAM requirements, I would consider. Although in speaking with a couple of big retailers (CF and Vanns) they said they get a fair amount of returns on the Pannys. (It's also strange that the Pannys are more expensive. I know one gets what one pays for, but....)
I don't mean to blindly knock the Pannys, it's just that I do not trust them after my experiences. Plus the fact that they require RAM discs for any titling and what have you. (I'll look at my Panny tonight and find the model. Maybe that model had problems, I don't know).

If I were you I would wait to find out how the Magnavox H2160MW9A situation shakes out. That model is currently priced at $249.98, plus a nominal shipping charge to your home or free shipping to your nearby WalMart store for in-person pick-up.

Of course, there are more than a few that will not patronize WalMart due to its entrepreneurial capitalism, but regular folks have no problem shopping at WalMart.

When retailers mention "a fair amount of returns" they are most likely referring to the Panasonic EZ series machines that do not lend themselves to casual users that "don't need no stinkin' owner's manual." Panasonic Operating Instructions require real study.

As with Toshiba (Funai) combo recorders, Panasonic combo recorders will not satisfy your requirements. Links in my first response to your original post will take you to other posts where Funai-manufactured Toshiba/Magnavox/Sylvania combo recorders are discussed in some detail.

I will also be blunt. Panasonic disc read, write, and finalizing problems are most often the result of neglect of maintenance. The DVD Drive rubber hub and lens cleaning procedure for 2005 and older or 2006 and newer Panasonics are described and pictured in this post and the posts that follow it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14479898#post14479898

One must take care to follow the instructions and heed the cautions.

And that's when I start offering up some of my old models for bidding on ebay. ;)

Yeah, but did you buy enough for everybody? :p

You didn't mention if you needed the digital tuner, if so your only decent choice would be the Magnavox 2160 or the Philips 3576. Since you don't care to shop Walmart or maybe Sams which is owned by Walmart, that probably eliminates both those models.
If you can get buy without the digital tuner then I'd suggest the Pioneer Citibear mentioned or a Panasonic from WI. If you currently have a Panasonic EZ DVDR I can understand your reluctance to purchase another Panasonic, but trust me other models like the ES/EH series are much better. Unfortunately they start at $369 for the EH-57 (http://www.world-import.com/dmr-eh57.htm) and go up to $449 for the top of the line EH-68 (http://www.world-import.com/Panasonic_dmr-eh68_320GB_HDD_DVD_Recorder.htm).
You could do your recordings realtime and push STOP to make separate titles, but for a large project that gets tedious, if you wanted to go that route I might suggest the tunerless EA-18 which seems less buggy than the tunered EZ series of recorders.
Note I think the chapter stops you'd create on the new Toshiba you mentioned would NOT carry over to a regular DVD player. I think those and also any edits made after the initial recording are only visible playing back on your Toshiba DVDR.

If you can get along without the digital tuner, want to stay under $300 and don't like Walmart, the Pioneer Citibear mentioned may be your only option, although if you also don't like ordering from the internet I'd say something used on Craigslist or similar might be your only option. The Panasonic ES-15 or ES-25 are decent analog HDD less recorders and after a good spindle cleaning may be as good as new, I'd think they may be had for between $75 and $150 used, this is just a guess.

The Panasonic EH55 with HDD recommended by Rammitinski is a fine unit but sells for nearly double that price on eBay...I wasn't recommending that model so much as I was just re-enforcing what others we're saying about having no problems with ebay and PayPal.

If I were you I would wait to find out how the Magnavox H2160MW9A situation shakes out. That model is currently priced at $249.98, plus a nominal shipping charge to your home or free shipping to your nearby WalMart store for in-person pick-up.

Of course, there are more than a few that will not patronize WalMart due to its entrepreneurial capitalism, but regular folks have no problem shopping at WalMart.

When retailers mention "a fair amount of returns" they are most likely referring to the Panasonic EZ series machines that do not lend themselves to casual users that "don't need no stinkin' owner's manual." Panasonic Operating Instructions require real study.

As with Toshiba (Funai) combo recorders, Panasonic combo recorders will not satisfy your requirements. Links in my first response to your original post will take you to other posts where Funai-manufactured Toshiba/Magnavox/Sylvania combo recorders are discussed in some detail.

I will also be blunt. Panasonic disc read, write, and finalizing problems are most often the result of neglect of maintenance. The DVD Drive rubber hub and lens cleaning procedure for 2005 and older or 2006 and newer Panasonics are described and pictured in this post and the posts that follow it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14479898#post14479898

One must take care to follow the instructions and heed the cautions.

I wish I knew about that maintenance thing with the Pannys. I also wish I had found this place a long time ago, then I would have known about it.;)

You didn't mention if you needed the digital tuner, if so your only decent choice would be the Magnavox 2160 or the Philips 3576. Since you don't care to shop Walmart or maybe Sams which is owned by Walmart, that probably eliminates both those models.
If you can get buy without the digital tuner then I'd suggest the Pioneer Citibear mentioned or a Panasonic from WI. If you currently have a Panasonic EZ DVDR I can understand your reluctance to purchase another Panasonic, but trust me other models like the ES/EH series are much better. Unfortunately they start at $369 for the EH-57 (http://www.world-import.com/dmr-eh57.htm) and go up to $449 for the top of the line EH-68 (http://www.world-import.com/Panasonic_dmr-eh68_320GB_HDD_DVD_Recorder.htm).
You could do your recordings realtime and push STOP to make separate titles, but for a large project that gets tedious, if you wanted to go that route I might suggest the tunerless EA-18 which seems less buggy than the tunered EZ series of recorders.
Note I think the chapter stops you'd create on the new Toshiba you mentioned would NOT carry over to a regular DVD player. I think those and also any edits made after the initial recording are only visible playing back on your Toshiba DVDR.

If you can get along without the digital tuner, want to stay under $300 and don't like Walmart, the Pioneer Citibear mentioned may be your only option, although if you also don't like ordering from the internet I'd say something used on Craigslist or similar might be your only option. The Panasonic ES-15 or ES-25 are decent analog HDD less recorders and after a good spindle cleaning may be as good as new, I'd think they may be had for between $75 and $150 used, this is just a guess.

I would need a tuner as I do not have a cable box. (TV is plugged in direct).
I don't watch TV that much though. I'd only record something really special and that means once a year if I am very lucky. Usually longer than that between things worth recording for me personally.
I think for the moment I could get along without a tuner as gaining more living space is priority.:o I don't have 900 tapes to do, but I have enough that it would take several months going the slow way if I worked on it 5 days a week.
That is interesting about playback from discs made with the Toshiba. I had not thought of that. That sounds as bad as the RAM thing.
I don't mind ordering from the internet at all. It's just eBay that scares me. There have been some suggestions made that should help me with my fear of eBay for this though, so I may get the courage to go for it. (I just need to find a way other than PayPal to purchase something. I'm sure I have options with that, so I'm not worried).
Hey, another reason to go HDD/DVD machine = Record shows from the internet! I watch Internet TV on my Sammy 40-inch:D
I'm sold!
Thanks CitiBear and everybody! I think you have helped prevent me from making a big mistake and wasting money. Why get a DVD recorder that strongly may not work for me when for around the same price or maybe $40 more I can get something that WILL meet my needs.:)

There are plenty of other payment methods besides PayPal:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/methods.html

Although PayPal does expand your choices (some vendors only use PayPal.) But generally you can find workarounds.

If you weren't so anti-Panny, I'd say there's the EH57, EH67 & EH68 from www.world-import.com (the EH57 & 67, at least, are modeled after the EH55, so they should be better than the newer stuff. The EH55 has a very good track record).
Anubisrocks, as an owner of the EH67, I can tell you that this machine will work very well for your aplication. That's what I used it for, and it works great for the purpose of tape transfer. The thing that I don't think has been mentioned is, with a HDD machine, you start the recorder, and then the tape, and you leave it for the two, or six hours until the tape playback is finished. Then you can edit and break up to content however you wish, using playlists, and burn the content to -R disks in any form that you want. The price of these is above your upper limit, but as opposed to other solutions, this one is quite easily doable. If you have television series, like I did, the hard drive allows you to have large numbers of shows available so you can put them in proper order, even if they were scattered on the tapes.

If you only rarely wanted to record something from an NTSC tuner to the Panasonic EH67/EH57, you could just use your VCR.

The Canadian Pioneer 460 would be better (much cheaper, too), but I'm just talking about if you are still completely ebay/PayPal-averse. If it's new-in-box and the seller's rating is good, I really wouldn't worry so much, though (the World-Import site for the Panny is honest, reliable and respectable, so I don't think you'd have to worry there, either. And you don't have to use PayPal).

(edit: I noticed in jjeff's link that the EH68 has "Guide Plus", which means you'll probably have to go through that to set up timer recordings. So doing that would probably be a bit less hassle on the EH57/EH67.)

Originally Posted by Rammitinski
If you weren't so anti-Panny, I'd say there's the EH57, EH67 & EH68 from www.world-import.com (the EH57 & 67, at least, are modeled after the EH55, so they should be better than the newer stuff. The EH55 has a very good track record).

Holy Cow! First I've read of these machines! Wow! Would love to pick one up to back-up my precious EH-75!

Not to hijack the thread -- but... Anybody know if any of these have TVGOS, either the analog or digital version?

Also, another 'good word' for both ebay & PayPal. I've been a member for both for upwards of 10 years, and have not had a problem with either. I'm neither a frequent buyer nor frequent seller, but they've always worked and I've never been ripped-off. My feeling is that an ebay 'store' is probably a bit safer than dealing with an individual ebay seller, but I've not had a problem with either.

Unfortunately none of the international Pannys have TVGOS or a IR blaster. Oh and if you care, they also don't have the phrase save feature either. Although you can use your EH-75 for that feature, using unfinalized discs that were recorded in the international Panny.
If you like to put music on your DVDRs HDD I think it's the EH-68 that has grace notes to automatically title your CDs.

Thanks for the quick response, jjeff. If Comcast & Macrovision kill TVGOS for my Panny after the June 12th switchover, it'd be a moot, although irritating, point and I might consider one of the internationals as a potential replacement.

And, yes -- I do use the phrase save feature. Although not perfect by any means, I consider my EH-75 to be the best consumer product value I ever bought!

And, yes -- I do use the phrase save feature. Although not perfect by any means, I consider my EH-75 to be the best consumer product value I ever bought!
I have no idea why they discontinued the phrase save feature in the international models, but it isn't there. On the up side, the menus and user interface is identical to the EH75, so the learning curve is zero.

I have to agree with you on the EH75. No DVD recorder was its equal. It is something we will likely never see again.

Thanks for the quick response, jjeff. If Comcast & Macrovision kill TVGOS for my Panny after the June 12th switchover, it'd be a moot, although irritating, point and I might consider one of the internationals as a potential replacement.Just remember that they don't have either an NTSC or an ATSC tuner (PAL only). So you'd need an external one.

They also don't have/use IR blasters. So if you need the ability to change channels on the tuner for recording purposes, it'll have to be able to do that on it's own (at least some kind of "reminder" feature).

Any word on how long World Import will carry those Pannys? The Canadian Pioneers are all open box from what I've heard, so that supply is probably nearing its end. I'm interested to see when everyone finally runs out of HDD recorders. (I also like watching train wrecks. :p )

Just to clarify, ALL of the Pioneer Canada models sold by Canadian internet dealers since 2006 have been "new open box": ALL of them. There is no reason to be put off by this: "new open box" is the literal truth: the recorders are new but the box has been opened and resealed. For this, you get a 30% discount: not a bad bargain at all. Over the last three years, I have ordered thirteen "open box" Canadian Pio 540, 450, and 460 models for myself and family- of those, all were absolutely new, one had a price sticker on it but was otherwise new, and one had a tiny mark on it but was otherwise new. The dealers have return policies, I've never bothered because those two units really were just fine.

Up until Pioneer went bankrupt last month, causing a spike in panic buys and raising prices to $319, these Canadian Pios sold for an average $269, an excellent deal compared to a Global Panasonic from World Import which runs minimum $379. The only reason anyone in their right mind would pay $100 premium for a Panasonic over a Pioneer is if they already owned previous Panasonics and just want to stay with what they know and like (perfectly understandable). But if you're just now entering the market with no prior brand experience, a Pioneer 460 matches a Panasonic EH67 feature for feature including RAM ability for usually a lot less cash.

World Import and other similar USA importers will likely carry the Panasonic global DVD/HDD recorders indefinitely: if you think you might want one of these in the future I wouldn't worry about availability. This is a specific, narrowly-targeted model range that sells quite well for Panasonic, and now that Pioneer has tanked and gotten out of the DVR business I'm sure Panasonic's sales will increase from their only competitor disappearing. (Aside from Panasonic only Pioneer went after this particular market.)

The global-model Panasonics like the EH-67 are not impacted in any way by the deadly USA market: these models are intended to be usable in a variety of countries, primarily PAL-broadcasting areas. Their NTSC functionality is really just an afterthought, although in practice it works out quite well for USA buyers. Until recently, the Panasonic global models were a little off-putting to your "average Joe" American, because they only record NTSC thru line in (they have no NTSC tuner). But now that the ATSC/QAM horror is upon us, all global or older model recorders will need an outboard ATSC tuner, cable, or satellite service anyway so it isn't as big a deal.

Panasonic and Pioneer were the last remaining sellers of really rugged, high-quality DVD/HDD machines and were about equal to each other, plus or minus one or two defining features. If you like to set exact in-between recording speeds to maximize DVD quality, the Pioneers allow this easily while the Pannys insist on an auto-only flex record feature. OTOH some folks swear by the Panasonic "enhanced" LP speed. Minor differences overall. In terms of availability, the global Panasonics should be hanging around for quite awhile yet. But if you fancy a Canadian Pioneer, those will be disappearing in the wake of Pioneer going under earlier this summer: so act now if you want a Pioneer anything (TV, DVD recorder, surround receiver). By the end of the year Pioneer will be absorbed as strictly the car audio division of Honda Motors.:(

I'm trying to get a Pioneer from Canada. It sounds like a really good unit for me but I am running into problems getting it.
It's on Ebay which I have never used before. I guess I need to register.
The problem is that I don't know how to pay for it. (I have not clicked "Buy Now" yet because I read that once you do your committed. If you mess with it I think you end up getting arrested or something?
I do not have a PayPal account as they are very unsafe. I don't want them messing with my bank account. I read something about using a Credit Card with PayPal, but they do not explain how it works. They are cagey on everything so I can not trust them.

I had trouble with PayPal too, and would never have an account again.

I have bought from E-Bay sellers several times, but it has always been through Amazon, and paid with a credit card to Amazon. I wonder if you search for that model on Amazon, if it will come up with an E-Bay reseller? Worth a try...

They aren't being "cagey", just obstructive-obtuse-confusing. As eBay and PayPal have evolved, they've actually gotten a lot more reliable and safe, especially when purchasing from store-like sellers. Where they fall down now is in implementing byzantine rules for use of the site which get more confusing every day. eBay is in panic mode because Wall Street geniuses keep pressuring them to turn over more and more business to jack up the stock, in their crazed pursuit of this they've actually shot themselves in the foot and made it harder and harder to buy or sell items. Insanity.

One of their more pointless and irritating recent changes is forbidding most transaction payments other than PayPal or direct credit card. Up until recently you could also pay by money order, but sellers are no longer allowed to accept this. PayPal has its detractors, mostly pissed-off sellers who've gotten burned by chargebacks with it, but you generally don't have to worry about using it as a buyer: its usually safe for buyers and gives you a bit more protection against fraud. But its a pain to set up a PayPal account, and silly to do so if you only plan to buy one item and never use eBay again. Unfortunately under the new eBay regime you have no choice- PayPal is the only route to pay for most things. You could ask the larger store-type sellers if they have direct credit card processing, but most do not, they rely on PayPal as an intermediary. So even if you want to pay with a credit card, often you need a PayPal account to funnel it through. If you have no interest whatsoever in using eBay aside from purchasing one DVD recorder, the easiest method is to have a friend or family member with an account place the order for you, then reimburse them.

kjbawc's "Amazon" trick is clever, and worth a try if you can find someone selling what you want. I just looked, right now there is nothing on either the Canadian or USA Amazon except the 2007 Pioneer 550 for $449 (overpriced, since the new, identical 2008 Pioneer 460 goes for $269-319 several times a month).

I have used e-bay and paypal many times. Create an account, link it to your credit card and you can pay that way. Look at the seller ratings and comments. If they are mostly positive, there probably will not be a problem.

If there is, you have recourse through e-bay, paypal and your credit card company. If you see something you want, go for it.

I lost! Just now I went to Ebay and that model of Pioneer the 460 is all gone. There are none left in the world!
Now what do I do?
Actually, since this ends the search for a DVD recorder it's time to just through out all my tapes and everything.
I well not settle for a panasonic again!
I did not know one only has 2 seconds to buy something. It was not even a bid item, it was strictly a buy now. The seller never responded to me either. Must be a bad seller even though they came recommended.

At least I tried. Now I have to pay the ultimate price of not being able to clean up my tapes and record anymore!

I lost! Just now I went to Ebay and that model of Pioneer the 460 is all gone. There are none left in the world!
Now what do I do?
Actually, since this ends the search for a DVD recorder it's time to just through out all my tapes and everything.
I well not settle for a panasonic again!
I did not know one only has 2 seconds to buy something. It was not even a bid item, it was strictly a buy now. The seller never responded to me either. Must be a bad seller even though they came recommended.

At least I tried. Now I have to pay the ultimate price of not being able to clean up my tapes and record anymore!

My experience with eBay is that there will always be another _________ (fill in the name of the item) coming along sooner or later. Buy It Now is just that. If you want the item you buy it now. If you hesitate someone else may buy the item. Then when you go back to your watch list the item is gone. It's the same with going into a retail store that has only one of a certain item in stock. You buy it now or someone else buys it. As Walter Cronkite said, "that's the way it is."

Then you start looking for another item.

Anubisrocks,

DON'T PANIC.:D

Just be patient: the Pioneer 460 sells through in small batches on eBay. Partly this is due to actual supply going up and down, and partly this is due to dealers taking them off eBay for a week or two to build panic such as yours and stoke higher bids later. All of the 460 supply comes from CostCo, and CostCo is sitting on enough of these recorders to build another Hoover Dam: I promise you, more will be listed. This cycle was repeated with the 540 and 450 models, and continues with the 460. More will turn up soon, just check every day. This "boom and bust" happens with Panasonics and other brands as well.

I lost! Just now I went to Ebay and that model of Pioneer the 460 is all gone. There are none left in the world!
Now what do I do?
Actually, since this ends the search for a DVD recorder it's time to just through out all my tapes and everything.
I well not settle for a panasonic again!
I did not know one only has 2 seconds to buy something. It was not even a bid item, it was strictly a buy now. The seller never responded to me either. Must be a bad seller even though they came recommended.

At least I tried. Now I have to pay the ultimate price of not being able to clean up my tapes and record anymore!

Jesus, someone is overreacting.

It's not like Pioneer only made one of them, or that the guy who outbid you is going to take the recorder and smash it to bits. Just keep checking eBay every day or so. Sometimes I've waited MONTHS for an item I wanted, just to get it at a good price.

Patience is your friend.

(And I would suggest that there's always World Import's Panasonics, but you seem to be hell bent on not buying that brand regardless of what anyone says, so why bother?)

Anubisrocks,

DON'T PANIC.http://www.*****************/trafficreport/img/3721/k09f0423lglc/b.gif

Just be patient: the Pioneer 460 sells through in small batches on eBay. Partly this is due to actual supply going up and down, and partly this is due to dealers taking them off eBay for a week or two to build panic such as yours and stoke higher bids later. All of the 460 supply comes from CostCo, and CostCo is sitting on enough of these recorders to build another Hoover Dam: I promise you, more will be listed. This cycle was repeated with the 540 and 450 models, and continues with the 460. More will turn up soon, just check every day. This "boom and bust" happens with Panasonics and other brands as well.

Yeah, you need to check everyday and soon you will have your 460 model.

You guys were right. I thought the two machines the seller had were the last two in the world because they have not been made since 2006 or something and I heard they were very close to depletion and once they are gone they are gone. (I still have the feeling that they will soon not be available anymore though. That's based on my luck though. If it weren't for bad luck I would not have any luck at all).
I was just informed that the seller will be getting a couple more in shortly so I will be ready this time. The email they sent was professional which speaks to their reputation and I for one, am glad (Whew!). The delay last time was that I had to discuss some stuff with PayPal, mainly security issues. Plus I had to quickly learn Ebay.
It was not a bid item either, it was strictly a buy now thing, there was no bidding. (I would not dare look at a bid item anyway). Its just that somebody came along and snapped both units up in less than a second.

(People say that Ebay is addicting. Personally, I don't see how anyone can be addicted to that mess. I'm only doing this once out of necessity as you guys have shown me the error of my ways regarding DVD recorders. After reading up on the Pioneers I found them to be perfectly what I need.
I know this much, after I purchase this unit on Ebay and after I receive it I will destroy my Ebay and PayPal accounts and probably wipe my HDD completely just to be sure). Anyway, back on topic:

As for Panasonic, I'm not trying to knock them. I'm sure those who own them get a lot of satisfaction. For me though, having been through two of them in two years has just left a really bad taste in my mouth for that brand. It would be the same if the brand was Toshiba, Pioneer or anyone else. So I just don't trust Panasonic anymore and I'm ready to try something different, that's all.

So I just don't trust Panasonic anymore and I'm ready to try something different, that's all.

I understand, but in your situation, there isn't much choice anymore. You have Panny, Pioneer, and a questionable Magnavox. Just be glad Pioneer is there. :) Also, its analog tuner may become useless in a few years if your cable goes all digital. I know you said you wanted to record TV here and there, so be aware.

Keep in mind there's pretty much always going to be a PC solution. It may not be dirt simple, but it sure is a hell of a lot easier today than it was even a few years ago. So even if every Pioneer is gone, there are plenty of people who will help you get those tapes on DVD.

I also think you're being too paranoid about eBay (wipe your hard drive after using it? Come on, man, don't be that guy.) But I know it isn't for everyone. It isn't going to come eat your children, though. Just relax, use it, and don't bother with it again.

Anubisrocks brings up a couple of common misunderstandings regarding both Pioneer recorders and eBay/PayPal that I'd like to touch on:

1. Pioneers have not been "out of production since 2006"- many Americans believe this because they haven't seen them in USA stores since 2006, but thats misleading. The last Pioneer model sold in the USA was the 640 of 2006, but sales continued in Canada of followup models that were originally intended for both USA/Canada. These were the 450/550/650 of 2007 and the 460/560/660 of 2008. The more recent models are evolutions/improvements on the already-solid 2006 chassis, all are excellent. The 460 is the most common model sold by eBay dealers, as there was a huge oversupply of it. They were made specifically for CostCo Canada, but the bottom dropped out of the recorder market in Canada within months of the 460 introduction and CostCo found it could not sell them at the $419 price point they were designed for. So hundreds of these got "pushed out the back door" to be sold as "open box" units thru Canadian eBay liquidators. Opening the boxes let CostCo save face with Pioneer, kind of like the way bookstores are allowed to trash slow-selling books by tearing the covers off.

2. eBay/PayPal: people need to understand these are not little fly-by-night outfits that will ransack your computer and steal your identity: they are billion dollar companies with pretty secure firewalls. There is no need for excessive concern when using them: the financial transactions are very secure and safe for buyers. PayPal cannot just take money from a buyers bank account unless they buy something. The eBay and PayPal sites are secure when logged into. There are only two ways a buyer can be screwed:

If you have a virus or malware that tracks your keystrokes, your passwords can be stolen by hackers and your accounts hijacked. This would apply to ANY other site you visit, including Amazon, the unemployment office, your email accounts: anything. It isn't limited to eBay/PayPal, and it isn't their fault if you don't protect yourself from hackers. If you're running decent antivirus shields like AVG Free and Malwarebytes on your PC, you should be fine. And if you're on a Apple Mac, its not even a passing threat. While its true theres a lot of consumer attacks going on, its largely preventable by careful use of your computer: if you don't have hack protection running on your PC, eBay/PayPal will be the least of your concerns. The bad press attributed to PayPal is primarily from sellers, not buyers: PayPal has been known to completely screw over a seller when an unscrupulous buyer kicks up a fuss and tries to scam the seller. If PayPal believes the buyer, they will freeze EVERY PENNY in the sellers account, not just the amount of the disputed purchase, for an indefinite period and with no regard to the rights of the seller. PayPal is also known to force refunds to buyers who have actually scammed a seller. These injured sellers are the largest source of PayPal complaints: if anything, PayPal bends over backwards to favor buyers. If you aren't selling, PayPal is usually your friend.

The only other eBay screwover happens when buyers walk into traps set by unscrupulous sellers. This almost always involves high-ticket, very "hot" electronics products, transparently obvious scams, and buyers with not a brain cell to be found in their skulls. You know what the A-number-one scam on eBay has been for the last five years running? Idiot American buyers who actually believe some guy in Lithuania has stock of $2000 Canon digital video or still cameras available for $399 on sale. Anyone dumb enough to fall for that deserves to lose their money. That sort of thing comprises 85% of scams on eBay, the remaining bad experiences are comparatively rare (getting the wrong item, misrepresentation of condition, etc.) Using your head, your gut instinct and some common sense will give you a 99% positive eBay experience.

As for Panasonic, I'm not trying to knock them. I'm sure those who own them get a lot of satisfaction. For me though, having been through two of them in two years has just left a really bad taste in my mouth for that brand. It would be the same if the brand was Toshiba, Pioneer or anyone else. So I just don't trust Panasonic anymore and I'm ready to try something different, that's all.It's your prerogative. But if they were from the last two years, and they were bought new from B&M stores, they undoubtedly were from the problemsome "EZ" model line (much of the electronics out there now are made much cheaper in China, including the EZ Pannies).

Those EH57 and EH67 models that we mentioned from World-Import are older models (by a few years now - but the units are still perfectly new), and are similar to Panny's last good EH/ES ones - from before the last couple of years (the EH68 is modeled more after the "EZ" line in the US, so that one I might be more inclined to steer clear of). Plus, they don't have digital tuners built-in, which lends itself to a whole other host of problems.

People here have openly been offering up stories all along about the erratic performance and reliability of the EZ models. If you don't believe me, just read through all the EZ threads. But if you read through the EH/ES threads, you'll find nary a problem mentioned - just the usual failures after years of use, which is the norm for any good brand of HDD recorder (as you would see if you went through all the threads here - and will unfortunately apply to your Pio or any other recorder you may get. These things don't last forever, no matter how good they're made. But with good care, they should last awhile. My oldest of four are 5 years old, and they still run perfectly - because I rotate them and don't beat on them. Never had to replace or repair anything on them yet - knock on wood).

I know this was mentioned to you before (although I don't know if you quite understood it), and you have your mind made up (don't blame you anyway, especially with such a huge price difference), but I just wanted to make that clear for future reference (for you or anybody else reading here).

I don't blame you for being skittish about the brand after your experiences, but you should know the whole story. For the most part, electronic components made within the last couple of years are made cheaper and flimsier than they used to be (one exception *might* be flat panel TV's - at least the better ones. At least you don't read of as many problems with them out of the box now - and funny enough, Panasonic is one of the best brands out there for them - especially plasmas). Stuff seems to have a lot more bugs now these days, too, because it's not tested as thoroughly before putting it out on the market. Quality control generally ain't what it used to be. A lot of this stuff is made in third world or developing countries using (what we would consider) slave labor now. Even China is starting to get too expensive and developed to make this stuff in (the standard of living has gone up so much), and they're beginning to re-outsource it now.

Those EH57 and EH67 models that we mentioned from World-Import are older models (by a few years now - but the units are still perfectly new)

Yes and no: it might be more accurate to say these global Panasonics are "based on" older models. They are apparently still in production as current worldwide models, although the introduction of the EH-68 with the newer EZ-style chassis may put an end to them. Since the global-market machines are not chock full of whiz-bang features that need to be updated every year, they tend to stick around for awhile as-is. When Pioneer was competing with Panasonic for that market, they had at least a dozen "global" models floating around, some of which dated back to 2005 designs. Its kind of a strange "generic" product line.

Normally mfrs target specific countries and specific broadcast systems (PAL, NTSC, analog tuning, digital tuning). Those models will have more features and be broken out in different price points. The units designed for the UK are so complex they could make your head spin- the national "TV Tax" in Britain supports no less than 3 distinct "free" broadcast systems (analog, DTV and satellite), with high-end recorders having built-in tuners for all of them, plus some sort of interface for private commercial satellite services. Although I think now the analog may be gone, much like ours will be in ten days.

I understand, but in your situation, there isn't much choice anymore. You have Panny, Pioneer, and a questionable Magnavox. Just be glad Pioneer is there. :) Also, its analog tuner may become useless in a few years if your cable goes all digital. I know you said you wanted to record TV here and there, so be aware.

Keep in mind there's pretty much always going to be a PC solution. It may not be dirt simple, but it sure is a hell of a lot easier today than it was even a few years ago. So even if every Pioneer is gone, there are plenty of people who will help you get those tapes on DVD.

I also think you're being too paranoid about eBay (wipe your hard drive after using it? Come on, man, don't be that guy.) But I know it isn't for everyone. It isn't going to come eat your children, though. Just relax, use it, and don't bother with it again.


"isn't much choice" - You got that right! That's why I am doing the one time only Ebay purchase. If I ever run into this similar problem again I'll choose to just go without until an alternative solution comes along. (It's just this time I have VHS tapes that have invaded my living space and having a DVD recorder in the recent past has shown me how valuable the recorders can be. Unfortunately the two I had did not work too well after a few months)
I would do a PC solution, but I would need to purchase a video capture card and those things are just as costly as a good DVD recorder. I would also need the software and another college course to learn it.

I'm handy with PCs I can wipe drives and all that sort of thing with out problems if need be.

Anubisrocks brings up a couple of common misunderstandings regarding both Pioneer recorders and eBay/PayPal that I'd like to touch on:

1. Pioneers have not been "out of production since 2006"- many Americans believe this because they haven't seen them in USA stores since 2006, but thats misleading. The last Pioneer model sold in the USA was the 640 of 2006, but sales continued in Canada of followup models that were originally intended for both USA/Canada. These were the 450/550/650 of 2007 and the 460/560/660 of 2008. The more recent models are evolutions/improvements on the already-solid 2006 chassis, all are excellent. The 460 is the most common model sold by eBay dealers, as there was a huge oversupply of it. They were made specifically for CostCo Canada, but the bottom dropped out of the recorder market in Canada within months of the 460 introduction and CostCo found it could not sell them at the $419 price point they were designed for. So hundreds of these got "pushed out the back door" to be sold as "open box" units thru Canadian eBay liquidators. Opening the boxes let CostCo save face with Pioneer, kind of like the way bookstores are allowed to trash slow-selling books by tearing the covers off.

2. eBay/PayPal: people need to understand these are not little fly-by-night outfits that will ransack your computer and steal your identity: they are billion dollar companies with pretty secure firewalls. There is no need for excessive concern when using them: the financial transactions are very secure and safe for buyers. PayPal cannot just take money from a buyers bank account unless they buy something. The eBay and PayPal sites are secure when logged into. There are only two ways a buyer can be screwed:

If you have a virus or malware that tracks your keystrokes, your passwords can be stolen by hackers and your accounts hijacked. This would apply to ANY other site you visit, including Amazon, the unemployment office, your email accounts: anything. It isn't limited to eBay/PayPal, and it isn't their fault if you don't protect yourself from hackers. If you're running decent antivirus shields like AVG Free and Malwarebytes on your PC, you should be fine. And if you're on a Apple Mac, its not even a passing threat. While its true theres a lot of consumer attacks going on, its largely preventable by careful use of your computer: if you don't have hack protection running on your PC, eBay/PayPal will be the least of your concerns. The bad press attributed to PayPal is primarily from sellers, not buyers: PayPal has been known to completely screw over a seller when an unscrupulous buyer kicks up a fuss and tries to scam the seller. If PayPal believes the buyer, they will freeze EVERY PENNY in the sellers account, not just the amount of the disputed purchase, for an indefinite period and with no regard to the rights of the seller. PayPal is also known to force refunds to buyers who have actually scammed a seller. These injured sellers are the largest source of PayPal complaints: if anything, PayPal bends over backwards to favor buyers. If you aren't selling, PayPal is usually your friend.

The only other eBay screwover happens when buyers walk into traps set by unscrupulous sellers. This almost always involves high-ticket, very "hot" electronics products, transparently obvious scams, and buyers with not a brain cell to be found in their skulls. You know what the A-number-one scam on eBay has been for the last five years running? Idiot American buyers who actually believe some guy in Lithuania has stock of $2000 Canon digital video or still cameras available for $399 on sale. Anyone dumb enough to fall for that deserves to lose their money. That sort of thing comprises 85% of scams on eBay, the remaining bad experiences are comparatively rare (getting the wrong item, misrepresentation of condition, etc.) Using your head, your gut instinct and some common sense will give you a 99% positive eBay experience.

Thanks for this valuable info Citibear! I was under the impression thatI was going after a very rare thing. That appears not to be the case for now, thank goodness!!
Thanks for the info on eBay and PayPal. I'm using the credit card option so I have better recourse should something nasty occur. Plus, I"ll just delete my accounts with eBay and PayPal after I get my DVD recorder.

By the way, I read some of the manual on-line for the recorder. Not only is it well written, but it showed me that this is the perfect machine for me! I wish I could afford two of them.:o
Where have these been my whole life? I know - stupid question. Had it not been for you and everyone else at these forums I would have never known and would have lost $

It's your prerogative. But if they were from the last two years, and they were bought new from B&M stores, they undoubtedly were from the problemsome "EZ" model line (much of the electronics out there now are made much cheaper in China, including the EZ Pannies).

Those EH57 and EH67 models that we mentioned from World-Import are older models (by a few years now - but the units are still perfectly new), and are similar to Panny's last good EH/ES ones - from before the last couple of years (the EH68 is modeled more after the "EZ" line in the US, so that one I might be more inclined to steer clear of). Plus, they don't have digital tuners built-in, which lends itself to a whole other host of problems.

People here have openly been offering up stories all along about the erratic performance and reliability of the EZ models. If you don't believe me, just read through all the EZ threads. But if you read through the EH/ES threads, you'll find nary a problem mentioned - just the usual failures after years of use, which is the norm for any good brand of HDD recorder (as you would see if you went through all the threads here - and will unfortunately apply to your Pio or any other recorder you may get. These things don't last forever, no matter how good they're made. But with good care, they should last awhile. My oldest of four are 5 years old, and they still run perfectly - because I rotate them and don't beat on them. Never had to replace or repair anything on them yet - knock on wood).

I know this was mentioned to you before (although I don't know if you quite understood it), and you have your mind made up (don't blame you anyway, especially with such a huge price difference), but I just wanted to make that clear for future reference (for you or anybody else reading here).

I don't blame you for being skittish about the brand after your experiences, but you should know the whole story. For the most part, electronic components made within the last couple of years are made cheaper and flimsier than they used to be (one exception *might* be flat panel TV's - at least the better ones. At least you don't read of as many problems with them out of the box now - and funny enough, Panasonic is one of the best brands out there for them - especially plasmas). Stuff seems to have a lot more bugs now these days, too, because it's not tested as thoroughly before putting it out on the market. Quality control generally ain't what it used to be. A lot of this stuff is made in third world or developing countries using (what we would consider) slave labor now. Even China is starting to get too expensive and developed to make this stuff in (the standard of living has gone up so much), and they're beginning to re-outsource it now.

Hmm, well, I forgot to mention that last night I looked at my present Panny and it is indeed the EZ line. I forgot the exact number though not that it matters.
I also was using it as my DVD player too so the excessive use may have had a role to play as well.

I would do a PC solution, but I would need to purchase a video capture card and those things are just as costly as a good DVD recorder. I would also need the software and another college course to learn it.

Yeah, but look at it this way. A capture card can move from PC to PC (within reason), and can probably do more things than a DVD recorder could. And the software is a lot easier nowadays. Not bonehead easy, but not as tough as it was back then.

But if the recorder does everything you want to do, it's all good. I'm just saying without the recorder, you can still do what you want to do.


I'm handy with PCs I can wipe drives and all that sort of thing with out problems if need be.

My point is though you don't really need to. There's nothing on eBay or Paypal that will screw with your computer. They're just websites. And even if they did somehow rip you off (and I'm not saying they will), it'd probably be over the net to your bank account or credit card, not anything on your hard drive. (And your bank/cc company will probably deal with them at that point.)

So save yourself the trouble of formatting. :) Just kill your accounts and clean your cookies/cache.

Citibear, I won't dispute what you say about PayPal, but the problem I had with them is not covered in your post. About ten years ago, I got rid of all my credit cards, and swore never to use one again. A couple of years later, when I wanted to buy some equipment online, I thought PayPal would be a good option, so I sent them a check. The check cleared, they had the money from my account, so I ordered some equipment. Imagine my surprise when PayPal would not send my own money to the companies I had ordered from, because my account was not linked to a credit card. But they HAD my money, so there was no way I could cheat anyone! Nowhere did it advise me of this policy when I signed up. I spent hours on their website, finally found that policy in some obscure location. I e-mailed questions, got automated responses that had NOTHING to do with my questions. After trying for days, I finally got them to agree to send my money back, which took about a week to arrive, then it took seven days to clear my bank. This was all totally ridiculous. If I had had a credit card, I would have never needed a PayPal account in the first place. All in all, it took me over three weeks longer to get the equipment than if I had never tried to use PayPal. I would never, ever, consider dealing with them again. Of course, now I have a debit card, so I don't need to.

Hmm, well, I forgot to mention that last night I looked at my present Panny and it is indeed the EZ line. I forgot the exact number though not that it matters.
I also was using it as my DVD player too so the excessive use may have had a role to play as well.

A number of folks here at AVS try to provide potential buyers with information they need to know before buying particular products.

My first response to your original 5/28/09 post included these words, "VCR/DVD combo recorders--Toshiba (Funai) or any other brand--will not meet your requirements."

In another paragraph in that post I wrote, "Current Panasonic EZ series combo recorders and some earlier ES series combo recorders (i.e., the 2005 DMR-ES40V) are limited to the front panel control for dubbing/copying when using the built-in VHS mechanism. If you dubbed/copied videotaped recordings to DVD using the front panel control I can understand your frustration" (italics added).

Now that you mention that your Panasonic combo recorder is an EZ (series machine) I understand your frustration, even hostility, toward Panasonic. I own five EZ series machines myself.

I'm always amazed when so many folks purchase EZ series machines believing that the limitations, bugs and design flaws others have mentioned must only affect those others' machines, not their chosen machine. Then, a short time later, these machines are returned to the sellers, chucked aside or unloaded on Craig's List or eBay.

A number of folks here at AVS try to provide potential buyers with information they need to know before buying particular products.

My first response to your original 5/28/09 post included these words, "VCR/DVD combo recorders--Toshiba (Funai) or any other brand--will not meet your requirements."

In another paragraph in that post I wrote, "Current Panasonic EZ series combo recorders and some earlier ES series combo recorders (i.e., the 2005 DMR-ES40V) are limited to the front panel control for dubbing/copying when using the built-in VHS mechanism. If you dubbed/copied videotaped recordings to DVD using the front panel control I can understand your frustration" (italics added).

Now that you mention that your Panasonic combo recorder is an EZ (series machine) I understand your frustration, even hostility, toward Panasonic. I own five EZ series machines myself.

I'm always amazed when so many folks purchase EZ series machines believing that the limitations, bugs and design flaws others have mentioned must only affect those others' machines, not their chosen machine. Then, a short time later, these machines are returned to the sellers, chucked aside or unloaded on Craig's List or eBay.


Actually my Panasonic is not a "combo" I had my stand alone VCR hooked to it. The model of my Panasonic is DMR ES-10 so I guess that makes it an ES series. It seems all the Panasonics have the same or similar problems on every model and over many years right up to the present.

kjbawc, that is one heck of a war story! I'm so sorry to hear you went thru that aggravation with PayPal ten years ago, I sympathize completely in that I too was unable to use credit cards for a long while and had lots of difficulties until debit cards became a more widely accepted substitute. I have heard several reports similar to yours concerning PayPal bureaucratic horror-shows in the early days, it does curl your hair. The only reason I did not mention such bad PayPal experiences is that they are now largely consigned to the distant past, and anubisrocks was skittish enough already about trying eBay. I have been using PayPal/eBay for about 8 years, and feel the last few years they've dramatically improved in many respects. Beginning, say, 2004, PayPal ditched most of the destructive fineprint stupidities that ensnared you a decade ago. Today I'd say most of the "gotchas" are on the seller side of the transaction (I do a bit of both). Currently, opening these accounts as a new buyer is pretty straightforward, but the hoops they put you thru to be a new seller are beyond the pale: I'm really glad I established my selling privileges back in the stone age.;)

My dad used to be of the same opinion about Paypal/eBay as Anubisrocks and others.

Then he found it to be the cheapest place for motorcycle parts for his racing hobby. I think the number of purchases he's made exceeds mine now. :)

If I had had a credit card, I would have never needed a PayPal account in the first place. All in all, it took me over three weeks longer to get the equipment than if I had never tried to use PayPal. I would never, ever, consider dealing with them again. Of course, now I have a debit card, so I don't need to.

I understand you fear services like this but I've been a paypal member since 2001 or something. Not one issue. Here's an idea.

Look around in your town for a bank offering $50 for opening a checking account. Drop some cash in there. Link it to your Paypal. Now you are set with a separate checking account for paypal AND you just made $50.

This gives you peace of mind in case somethign goes wrong and you are paying cash and not using a cc.
:)

^^My credit card company allows the creation of a temporary card number for use online. You can set it for up to 12 months, and at whatever monetary limit you wish. Then you use that number when linking to Paypal, or buying direct from any e seller.

Also handy are the reloadable debit/cash cards you can get at drug stores and even Walmart. You buy them, put an amount of money on it, and can link them to a Paypal account too. Downside to those is there's a monthly $5 maintenance charge each month if you let the cash stay on it over a month...Paying to spend your own money isn't fun.

Actually my Panasonic is not a "combo" I had my stand alone VCR hooked to it. The model of my Panasonic is DMR ES-10 so I guess that makes it an ES series. It seems all the Panasonics have the same or similar problems on every model and over many years right up to the present.

I have assembled this narrative from my personal observations and those of other posters:

There are Panasonic operating system differences and similarities between various models and model years. These differences and similarities do not follow a strict line of continuity.

I use "old operating system technology" and "new operating system technology" as characterizations to identify certain of these model and model year continuities and discontinuities for Panasonic ES and EZ series DVD recorders and combo recorders of the 2005-2008 period.

The "old operating system technology," that had certain limitations, bugs and design flaws is found in such 2005 models as the DMR-ES20, the DMR-ES40V and (perhaps) the DMR-ES10 as well as other earlier models.

The "old operating system technology" gave way to the effectively debugged "new operating system technology" with the launch of the DMR-ES30V in 2005. This "new operating system technology" was carried over into the 2006 model year, the DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25, DMR-ES35V, DMR-ES45V and DMR-ES46V models that used a Panasonic CPU. These 2005 and 2006 models have very few problems.

With the government mandate to incorporate digital tuners into the 2007 model year production it was found that the "new operating system technology" was incompatible with the Panasonic digital tuner. It was then found that the "old operating system technology" could be "ported over" for use with the digital tuner. That "porting over" was not entirely successful but the digital-tuner EZ series was nonetheless put into production with the “old operating system technology” on a LSI CPU. At some point LSI changed hands resulting in a CPU bearing the Magnum name for EZ series 2008 model year production.

The “old operating system technology," as ported over to the EZ series has certain limitations, bugs and design flaws, some of which were carried over from some 2005 and earlier models, and a slew of newer limitations, bugs and design flaws from the too-hasty launch of the EZ series.

There have been several EZ series firmware upgrades that may have addressed some problems but other problems have not been corrected.

The EZ series bugs and design flaws have been widely reported in the AVS Forum and in a number of negative customer reviews at retailer websites. Negative EZ series customer reviews have also appeared on the Panasonic website.

So, Citibear, does PayPal still require that a credit card be linked to the account, for them to pay out money you have sent them in advance? If so, does that info appear somewhere you're likely to see it, when you sign up?

Just curious. It's really academic to me, now that I use a debit card.

I'm not sure, kjbawc, I haven't had a chance to dig into the complete current rules. Unless I'm very mistaken, I think they've done away altogether with the "fund your account with a check" option that gave you headaches. The last few people I know who signed up said you more or less HAVE to have either a bank account or a credit card linked to the account for it to be activated. eBay itself made a controversial, forced migration completely away from any payments via check/money order last year, and since they now own PayPal I would assume PayPal is on the same page: direct bank debits or credit cards only.

In my case it was lucky coincidence that I had an ancient bank account dating back to a grade school plan, I just used that to set up PayPal and generally keep no more than a hundred bucks in it. Its totally separate from my "real" accounts, if I need to fund PayPal I put some cash in that bank account and then transfer it over. For the very cautious, it may be worth opening a similar online-specific account at a different bank than your primary, for extra peace of mind. Its the simplest way to maintain an eBay account, other than linking your credit card. BTW, all my comments are not meant to "defend" PayPal: I think they have some very annoying practices, the red tape is maddening and they can be sneaky as hell. But if you want to participate on eBay, there's no option anymore but to use PayPal, so I'm just saying its not some horrible scam out to "get" people. Not in a big, obvious way, at least. It generally functions as its supposed to: broker payments between buyers/sellers, provide some recourse in case of problems, and provide billing/collection of eBay related fees.

I bought a Pioneer DVR460 from eBay last night. (scary)
I'm just hoping it is in pristine condition. (I don't mind a couple of finger prints or even a barely visable hairline small scratch, but that's about it).
I am now educated very well on the "open box" concept so I am ok with that. (Thank you Citibear).:)
I will inspect it when it arrives (when ever that is = I'm thinking about 12 days, no big deal).

I also got a notice about an extended warranty from SquareTrade. 1-year = $32 and 2-years = $47 Anyone ever use them?
I normally never ever buy extended warranties, ever! The only one and first one I bought in 30 years was recently for my LCD TV. I got a good price on the warranty which is 5-years and got it just because of the nature of LCD TVs. (You look at them the wrong way and they blow a circuitboard which is more than the whole TV cost).
Because of my experience with the Panasonics I am thinking about this warranty. I called them and they said because it's used ("open box") they can only go up to 2-years. They claim everything is covered except dropping it or spilling liquid on it or any other owner abuse of course. I need to read the fine print and thank goodness I have 30 days before the offer is withdrawn.
I'm just not so sure I should even think about getting it.
Any advice on this one?

Personally I don't buy extended warranties either but then when buying a new Panasonic DVDR(not sure about Pios) the original warranty is 1 year. In the case of the Panasonic EZ recorders I tried, I really used the warranty. I had 6 failures in less than 6 months, it's one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the EZ line of DVDRs.
With Pioneers I would think you'd have a better chance of going several years with no problems, but flukes do happen. For $47 for 2 years you might want to go that route, especially since you've had previous problems with a DVDR, albeit a different brand.
I've read from others who have purchased SquareTrade warranties and don't remember anyone being really upset with their decision, though I don't have any personal experience with them.

Yeah, I usually don't get them, either. But I might think about it for a machine that has a hard drive, especially since you said you were using it for VHS transfers. I guess it depends on how big and intensive that project will get. I know people here who have big dubbing projects have backup units, but if it's your only one...

Everybody has rotten experiences with different things. My pet horror is service centers for anything electronic: I have never had anything but nightmarish experiences with service, be it out-of-pocket or under warranty. The service reports here on AVS are not exactly encouraging either: it seems the ONLY dvd recorder mfr that has the slightest clue how to repair their own machines (never mind stocking the parts to do so) is Panasonic. Even in their case, unless you badger them into accepting your machine for the "secret" flat-fee repair program at one specific service center, all bets are off.

In the case of Pioneers, they were on the market from 2003-2008. The 2003-2005 models are completely Pioneer, fairly reliable but the burners do go out within two years like most other recorders. The 2006-2008 Pioneers, including the final 460-560-660, are a hybrid Pioneer chassis with a very durable Sony burner for -R, +R and -RAM discs. The Sony-Pio burners last a good three years and then very slowly start failing, my oldest one gets very heavy daily use and will probably go out for good next spring giving it a solid four year run after burning well over a thousand discs. Because Pioneer is now extinct, and because Pioneer USA refuses to service the Pioneer Canada models anyway, it does actually make sense to get a Square Trade warranty for one: the price and terms seem good. I personally repair my own old Pios, because I learned how and invested in the tools, but most non-fanatics would probably find the Square Trade coverage easier.;)

Everybody has rotten experiences with different things. My pet horror is service centers for anything electronic: I have never had anything but nightmarish experiences with service, be it out-of-pocket or under warranty. The service reports here on AVS are not exactly encouraging either: it seems the ONLY dvd recorder mfr that has the slightest clue how to repair their own machines (never mind stocking the parts to do so) is Panasonic. Even in their case, unless you badger them into accepting your machine for the "secret" flat-fee repair program at one specific service center, all bets are off.

In the case of Pioneers, they were on the market from 2003-2008. The 2003-2005 models are completely Pioneer, fairly reliable but the burners do go out within two years like most other recorders. The 2006-2008 Pioneers, including the final 460-560-660, are a hybrid Pioneer chassis with a very durable Sony burner for -R, +R and -RAM discs. The Sony-Pio burners last a good three years and then very slowly start failing, my oldest one gets very heavy daily use and will probably go out for good next spring giving it a solid four year run after burning well over a thousand discs. Because Pioneer is now extinct, and because Pioneer USA refuses to service the Pioneer Canada models anyway, it does actually make sense to get a Square Trade warranty for one: the price and terms seem good. I personally repair my own old Pios, because I learned how and invested in the tools, but most non-fanatics would probably find the Square Trade coverage easier.;)

Yeah if only I had the tools and knowledge to repair my own. I can build a PC from the ground up in about 2 hours, but I that's a different story.

Seeing what your saying I think it would be a good idea to read the fine print first and then if everything checks out, I'll make the rare exception to get the extended warranty through SquareTrade. $47 for two years is not bad and they do pay shipping both ways and have a 5 day turnaround. Although the one cavat is that nothing will go wrong during the two years of coverage of course. That's good and bad. Good: it means the machine is a tank and well designed. Bad: needs fixing and no coverage.
I don't have 1000 tapes to do thank goodness, but I have enough to bury me. I also will be recording from the internet:D
While it would be easier to get a second machine, I can't afford it right now. If they are still around in several months by some miracle and I have the money, I will get a second one:)

Seeing what your saying I think it would be a good idea to read the fine print first and then if everything checks out, I'll make the rare exception to get the extended warranty through SquareTrade. $47 for two years is not bad and they do pay shipping both ways and have a 5 day turnaround. Although the one cavat is that nothing will go wrong during the two years of coverage of course . . If they are still around in several months by some miracle and I have the money, I will get a second one:)

While these are often referred to as "extended warranties" they are really "service contracts."

What happens when repair/replacement parts are not available and a replacement product is no longer available? These circumstances usually trigger a full or pro-rated refund, at the discression of the contract provider, rather than repair or replacement of the product itself.

While these are often referred to as "extended warranties" they are really "service contracts."

What happens when repair/replacement parts are not available and a replacement product is no longer available? These circumstances usually trigger a full or pro-rated refund, at the discression of the contract provider, rather than repair or replacement of the product itself.

Exactly and the funny thing is that it seems this SquareTrade place knows about the Pioneer situation. When I called them to learn more they looked up my purchase on eBay and told me that they know Pioneer is gone as of a month ago and will not honor it's own warranty service. They also said they are the only way to cover it in this case should I want that. They are probably correct in that regard, if not at least the easiest route perhaps. (Still studying the fine print).

I guess SquareTrade is trying to build a good reputation (see all their customer feedback ads), because they are pretty good at refunding your money if a purchase goes south.

I bought a refurbished Toshiba RD-XS35 two years ago as a backup to my trusty RD-XS52. I took up SquareTrade's offer of a 2-yr warrantee. When the RD-XS52 got hosed by a corrupt firmware update, I pulled the RD-XS35 out of it's sealed, factory refurbished box, and found out the burner was dead (or the DigiPC board) :mad:. Of course Toshiba refused to do anything about it since it was >90 days after purchase, voiding the warrantee (they also refused to accept responsibility for distributing a corrupt firmware update over their website, but that's a whole other story).

I contacted SquareTrade and after reviewing my case for two days, they offered to refund me the full $223 purchase price, so that saved the day. I was really surprised as I expected them to be these fly-by-night companies that would collect all the warrantee fees than disappear in two years. Or blow you off when asked to honor a warrantee. Plus my unit was a refurb, not new.

Therefore if you buy a used HDD recorder off Ebay and you don't trust the seller, a SquareTrade warrantee is a good out in case you need it. Or if a new product only has a 60-90 day warrantee and is known for poor reliability.

One caveat is if you are at FPO AP (DOD overseas), they will not pick up return freight. And if they repair the unit, it can only be shipped to an address in the Continental U.S. This is one bummer about their current service. I suspect they are like car insurance companies and make all their profit off the (sheer number of) warrantee fees and therefore offer a refund rather than repair anything on the small percentages of claims that do get filed.

I

I also got a notice about an extended warranty from SquareTrade. 1-year = $32 and 2-years = $47 Anyone ever use them?
I normally never ever buy extended warranties, ever! The only one and first one I bought in 30 years was recently for my LCD TV. I got a good price on the warranty which is 5-years and got it just because of the nature of LCD TVs. (You look at them the wrong way and they blow a circuitboard which is more than the whole TV cost).
Because of my experience with the Panasonics I am thinking about this warranty. I called them and they said because it's used ("open box") they can only go up to 2-years. They claim everything is covered except dropping it or spilling liquid on it or any other owner abuse of course. I need to read the fine print and thank goodness I have 30 days before the offer is withdrawn.
I'm just not so sure I should even think about getting it.
Any advice on this one?
Should you decide to go with a Square Trade warranty, when signing up, use this Coupon code to get 30% off the quoted price. Code is "EARLYSUMMER", and the offer is good til June 7th.

You may not have to rush though. I think they'll cover any purchase made within 30 days. I can't 100% confirm that, as I only this past weekend deleted a bunch of emails from my inbox, and I recall one of their emails offering to cover a recent purchase.

Everybody has rotten experiences with different things. My pet horror is service centers for anything electronic: I have never had anything but nightmarish experiences with service, be it out-of-pocket or under warranty. The service reports here on AVS are not exactly encouraging either: it seems the ONLY dvd recorder mfr that has the slightest clue how to repair their own machines (never mind stocking the parts to do so) is Panasonic. Even in their case, unless you badger them into accepting your machine for the "secret" flat-fee repair program at one specific service center, all bets are off.

In the case of Pioneers, they were on the market from 2003-2008. The 2003-2005 models are completely Pioneer, fairly reliable but the burners do go out within two years like most other recorders. The 2006-2008 Pioneers, including the final 460-560-660, are a hybrid Pioneer chassis with a very durable Sony burner for -R, +R and -RAM discs. The Sony-Pio burners last a good three years and then very slowly start failing, my oldest one gets very heavy daily use and will probably go out for good next spring giving it a solid four year run after burning well over a thousand discs. Because Pioneer is now extinct, and because Pioneer USA refuses to service the Pioneer Canada models anyway, it does actually make sense to get a Square Trade warranty for one: the price and terms seem good. I personally repair my own old Pios, because I learned how and invested in the tools, but most non-fanatics would probably find the Square Trade coverage easier.;)

You may be slightly off in your years of production. I've noticed this in a number of your posts.

The top tier Japanese DVD recorders with hard drives gave up the ghost in 2007. Not 2006. It was the CES show of 2007 in which DVD recorders sans hard drives were introduced by tier one Japanese manufactures. Not CES 2006.

If I recall correctly my Panny EH55 and my Pio 640 had manufacture dates in 2006. For 2006 distribution. They were 2006 models. Not 2005 models.

My "ancient" RD-XS55 was manufactured in November of 2006 and probably hit the USA in early 2007. I purchased it in February of 2007.

'06 was the last model year Panasonic imported DVDRs w/HDD to the US(other than backdoor international models). Canada still sold basically the same '06 Panny EH-55 through '08, I'm not sure if the EH-75v was ever available in Canada?
I think Pioneer followed the same time line although they did change their line lineup each year in Canada.
I don't follow Toshibas but I don't remember seeing any Toshibas w/HDD in Canada in '08 when I bought my EH-55 but remember seeing many models of Pioneers.

A strange thing about the Toshiba RD-XS52, which was mean't as their first flagship line of recorders, is that all the ones I've seen were manufactured in 2004, for actual distribution in 2006. It must have been in development for awhile (or it took that long to engineer out a majority, but not all, of the bugs :p). I recall one guy on a web forum who returned his RD-XS52 to the store he bought it, claiming they were selling 'old stock' :). Broh, that's the only stock that ever was . . .

The Pioneer 7000 was 2002.
The 810-510-310-210 were 2003.
The 220-225-320-420-520-720 were 2004.
The godforsaken 531-533-633 were 2005, these are the ones that nearly tanked the company with consumer returns and warranty repairs, and were the final 100% Pioneer units.
The 640-543-540 of 2006 began the Pioneer/Sony DVD/HDD collaboration and were the last Pioneers sold in the USA: Pioneer exited altogether rather than deal with our inane 2007 ATSC requirements, Panasonic and the others returned in 2007 with ATSC but no more HDDs.
The Pioneer 450-550-650 were Canada-only 2007 models.
The 460-560-660 were Canada-only 2008 models and the final round of Pioneer recorders, period. These dates can be found on the back panel of the models in question, most of which have passed thru my hands for evaluation or repair.

The disappearance of USA DVD/HDD recorders began in the summer of 2006 when stores discovered they could not restock Spring 2006 models like the Pio 640 or the Panasonic EH55, or the carried over Toshibas. Thus began the insanely overpriced bidding wars on eBay over the last remaining Toshiba XS and Panasonic EH-55 and -85 units especially (because they had the popular TVGOS system which Pioneer was forced to omit from the new 640 after their disastrous 531-533-633 mistakes). All the major-brand DVD/HDD machines were gone from store shelves by fall 2006, it was the hottest topic on AVS due to the unusual circumstance of ALL the mfrs vanishing simultaneously (conspiracy theories abounded and still do, no one wants to believe the damn things just didn't sell so Japan Inc walked away en masse with the ATSC excuse). Did NewEgg and Best Buy and Circuit City still occasionally pop up with a Toshiba here and a Panny there well into 2007? Yes, but it was rare: officially they were long gone.

As jjeff said, the 2006 Panasonic EH series, a couple Sonys and LGs, and some Toshibas continued in Canada for another year or so, which confused people no end. Panasonic gave up on Canada in summer 2008, about the same time Pioneer rolled out its x60 models and Sony tried to palm off their "new" model 780, which was a re-brand of the old Pio 640. The Pios and the Sony promptly flatlined on the Canadian sales floor and were regularly discounted by nearly 40% within 60 days of introduction. Pioneer Electronics itself went under completely in April, leaving only LG in Canada and Magnavox in the USA limping on thru 2009 with DVD/HDD recorders.

This is strictly a North American phenomenon: Europe, Asia and Australia still have a selection of DVD/HDD models from Panasonic, Toshiba, Sony etc. Pioneer went under due to slow worldwide sales in its home audio and plasma TV divisions, the dead recorder market in North America didn't help but wasn't the major cause: the global economy pushed it too far over the edge (Panasonic and Sony aren't exactly doing cartwheels right now, either, but like AIG they're "too big to fail". Poor Pioneer wasn't- R.I.P.).

Should you decide to go with a Square Trade warranty, when signing up, use this Coupon code to get 30% off the quoted price. Code is "EARLYSUMMER", and the offer is good til June 7th.

You may not have to rush though. I think they'll cover any purchase made within 30 days. I can't 100% confirm that, as I only this past weekend deleted a bunch of emails from my inbox, and I recall one of their emails offering to cover a recent purchase.

Thanks for the coupon code Westly! Right now they are offering me 20% off, 30% saves $4 more which is good. Sadly I can not take advantage of the extra $4 savings because I have to receive the product first before I lay out another $47 for two years coverage. If the recorder looks like it was run over by a truck there is not point in getting a two-year service agreement. In that case I would just send the product back to the seller and ask for a refund.
I do plan on getting the service agreement (after I have a couple of questions answered), since I only have one of these recorders and judging by my experience with the Pannys I've owned. Granted it looks like this Pioneer will be far and above the quality of my former ES series Pannys, but it's still a DVD recorder with the addition of an HDD, just another ultra sensitive part to break down. (If I had the money to buy two of them I would not bother with the service agreement).
Still $47 for two years is not bad ($43 would have been nicer).

Yes, I do have 30 days to purchase the warranty(service agreement).

The disappearance of USA DVD/HDD recorders began in the summer of 2006 when stores discovered they could not restock Spring 2006 models like the Pio 640 or the Panasonic EH55, or the carried over Toshibas. Thus began the insanely overpriced bidding wars on eBay over the last remaining Toshiba XS and Panasonic EH-55 and -85 units especially (because they had the popular TVGOS system which Pioneer was forced to omit from the new 640 after their disastrous 531-533-633 mistakes). All the major-brand DVD/HDD machines were gone from store shelves by fall 2006, it was the hottest topic on AVS due to the unusual circumstance of ALL the mfrs vanishing simultaneously (conspiracy theories abounded and still do, no one wants to believe the damn things just didn't sell so Japan Inc walked away en masse with the ATSC excuse). Did NewEgg and Best Buy and Circuit City still occasionally pop up with a Toshiba here and a Panny there well into 2007? Yes, but it was rare: officially they were long gone.


This is strictly a North American phenomenon: Europe, Asia and Australia still have a selection of DVD/HDD models from Panasonic, Toshiba, Sony etc. Pioneer went under due to slow worldwide sales in its home audio and plasma TV divisions, the dead recorder market in North America didn't help but wasn't the major cause: the global economy pushed it too far over the edge (Panasonic and Sony aren't exactly doing cartwheels right now, either, but like AIG they're "too big to fail". Poor Pioneer wasn't- R.I.P.).

Your right Citibear. (North America sucks and I have to live there). Personally, I think another part of the reason the DVD Recorders have all but disappeared (especially the ones with an HDD) is political so to speak. Political in the form of greed. I think there was/is a propaganda campaign by the big cable and DVR companies such as AT&T, Verizon, Time Warner, Comcast, TIVO, etc. They felt threatened by the avaliabilty of DVD Recorders being a rather cost effective way for consumers to record TV or copy their non copy-protected VHS tapes such the ones they made themselves over to DVD. In other words, with DVD recorders there was no way to charge fees. Now you have TIVO and other DVRs from the Cable and phone companies that make a king's ransom. They charge you for the DVR unit and on top of that they charge you monthly fees on top of monthly fees to use it without any way of keeping what one records. (Eventually it gets deleted when the HDD gets full and one records another program).

Personally, I don't have to worry about recording from TV in the traditional sense as I don't watch, but I do want to record shows from the internet and of course I am dubbing my VHS tapes over. (You can't do that stuff with a TIVO). I'm wondering if one could hook a disc only based DVD recorder to a TIVO and record off of it for those who have one of these devices? They probably have it set up to prevent people from doing that, but I really don't know as I do not own one of those devices.
Then of course, everyone gets caught up in the BlueRay craze which again, further helps DVD recorder sales and demand plummet. (A real shame). It's dumb when you realize that BlueRay is not as good of quality as DVDs from what I have seen. Plus they are far more expensive for both players and discs. I hope DVDs are here to stay and that may happen in the US economy being what it is. I would think that people would not be so keen on paying $35for a movie on BlueRay when they can get the same and better quality picture on DVD for $19. Plus BlueRay player = $300 to $500+ DVD player = $69 to $350+
Anyway I digress.
Ok, rant over.;)

Personally, I think another part of the reason the DVD Recorders have all but disappeared (especially the ones with an HDD) is political so to speak. Political in the form of greed. I think there was/is a propaganda campaign by the big cable and DVR companies such as AT&T, Verizon, Time Warner, Comcast, TIVO, etc. They felt threatened by the avaliabilty of DVD Recorders . . .

DVD player = $69

Perhaps the politically-correct Hollywood entertainment industry (and their lobbyists) will have even more political clout in Washington D.C. now that other large industries are being nationalized, with taxpayer money from generations yet unborn, by the socialist government.

In recent months I've purchased two Sony DVD players, a DVP-NS57P and a DVP-SR200P, both purchased at WalMart for less than $40. I'm glad that entrepreneur capitalism still has a presence in the USA.

I think as much as anything it was the manufacturers getting greedy here when the best DVD/HD equipped recorders came out. I think my E-80h was originally like 750 bucks and would only record to minus and RAM disks. Even then there were dual format dvd burners as far as I remember but Panasonic still wanted to push it's two favorite standards.
I bought 2 at Best Buy back around summer of 2004 for like 350 each and once I took mine home I never looked back, but after it the features and all that of the newer units just wasn't as good except for being able to record at least plus and minus. My step dad still has his as well but the 2 of them are so flummoxed on how to use it that the HD finally got too full and now says recover all the time:mad:
They should have known that the US market will mostly not buy anything ridiculously priced so only A/V techies bought them then they stopped selling em here. It also didn't hurt that the movie industry was deathly afraid of them and cable loved to rent you a shiny DVR unit for 10 bucks a month, too bad you can't archive anything to disk with one;)

Wow! I was reading the manual for the Pioneer 460 on-line and thought I read that this thing will record in not only 2-channel Dolby, but also 5.1 under the right conditions!!!
Did I read that correctly? Goodness, that would be something!!! As far as I knew all DVD recorders can only record audio in mono or mono L+R.

I think there was/is a propaganda campaign by the big cable and DVR companies such as AT&T, Verizon, Time Warner, Comcast, TIVO, etc.


There was in the sense that they wanted to you rent their equipment. And they won. But not in the way you think. They didn't fight the war in Washington, they fought it in the features provided on the equipment.

DVD recorders suck wind when it comes to timeshifting compared to a TiVo or a DVR. It's basically point and click on a TiVo. And the vast majority of people in North America are not like us here. They don't archive shows to DVD, they just timeshift it to a more convenient time and then delete it. They didn't need a burner. Added that a cable DVR is $10-$20 a month versus $300 or more up front for a DVD recorder, well... (TiVo gets by based on their stellar interface and their long time in the market, but the cable DVRs have pinched them hard, too.)

So basically the DVD recorder mainly failed because it's a niche machine sold in a country that wants their niche machine (and everything else) cheap. Blame the American consumer, because they wield far more power than Hollywood or the industry. People want to say there was a conspiracy by lobbyists because the American consumer can't be stopped (and because they're part of it.) :)

They should have known that the US market will mostly not buy anything ridiculously priced so only A/V techies bought them then they stopped selling em here.

The price sensitivity issue in North America is fickle and unpredictable: people here willingly fork over exhorbitant sums of money and happily overpay for some things, while completely ignoring others (like DVD/HDD recorders) which arguably have an even better price/utility ratio. Consumer perception of value is utterly random: if it wasn't, ad agencies wouldn't exist. The most astonishing examples of products people will sell their souls to own are the heinously expensive Apple iPods, Sony Playstations + games, and luxe cell phones. All of these are far beyond any meaningful equation of what you actually get for the excessive money, yet people flock to them like flies to sh*t nonetheless.

What's even more fascinating is the way those same consumers condition themselves to assess relative "ease of use". The iPod/iTunes horror show has to be the single most psychotically consumer-hostile system to ever gain majority market share, but people will happily focus their brains, slog thru, and learn the arcane interface to getting stuff onto and off of an iPod (lets not even start on the iPhones, or BlackBerrys and texting, FaceBook/Twitter/Blogging and all that other tedious crap we all waste our lives plugged into.)

The very same folks who will tolerate the ridiculous iTunes interface and spend hours designing a FaceBook page (that their friends only log into to jeer at) and Twittering about their macrobiotic diets almost monolithically insist DVD recorders are "too complicated" and find the mere thought of finalizing a DVD to be completely incomprehensible, never mind perceiving the amazing utility of a DVD recorder with HDD. Yet they manage somehow to download and assemble pirated copies of Terminator 4 from 5 different segments loaded on 5 different torrent sites- that, they comprehend.

The contradictions in all this are very interesting, it might make a great masters thesis for a sociology student.:rolleyes: And yes, I use an iPod- mostly to catch up on backlogged TV series I transfer over from DVDR using Handbrake (talk about arcane).;)

...monolithically insist DVD recorders are "too complicated" and find the mere thought of finalizing a DVD to be completely incomprehensible, never mind perceiving the amazing utility of a DVD recorder with HDD. Yet they manage somehow to download and assemble pirated copies of Terminator 4 from 5 different segments loaded on 5 different torrent sites- that, they comprehend.


This comment is dead on the money. Have a look at some of the other forum discussion groups devoted to TV shows on DVD. They are heavily populated with people moaning and crying that the studios aren't putting out their "must have" favorite show out on DVD. Ironically, many of their requests are for shows that have aired within the last few years. If you ask these people "if it was such an all-time favorite show, why didn't you record it yourself when it aired?". The answer is always "Oh, it's too complicated to record these things". Yet these same people were able to learn to use a computer; surf the internet; sign up for discussion groups and become regular posters; download files; manage e-mail accounts etc....

Well what some folks think is a value is fascinating for sure. I wont do Itunes or Ipod, I think it's not a good enough value for what you get and until recently was plagued with their DRM which I guess you lived with or spent time trying to get rid of, plus it's dumbed down sound.
Apple seems to have a special breed of consumer that buys into their over priced crap and if these consumers ever figure it out they would be doomed.
The minute I hit record on my E80h and then played back the result I was sold and would happily look for another bigger better unit to supplant it. The Pioneers were nice but seemed spendy and then I wanted to get a digital tuner so I could take better advantage of my cable then Wally World brought out the Philips. I had tried the Polaroids and except for the easy Hard drive upgrades it kinda sucked. Now my parents were different, they never could understand how to use the panny even though I told step dad it supports VCRplus which he has used for years on all his VCR's and gave him a printout of the instructions and pictures a member here made up when it first came out to help folks like them.
That's the other problem, if it doesn't work just like the VCR folks are used to they can't be bothered to figure out how to use it...

That's the other problem, if it doesn't work just like the VCR folks are used to they can't be bothered to figure out how to use it...

That's why DVRs took off. They're actually simpler to use than VCRs (and if it's a cableco one, they even install it for customers that are particularly clueless.) I watched a friend's 90 year old grandma work one like she was a NASA scientist.

Well my lil sisters hubby is a big time audiophile with pockets to match so when they were complaining about their whole setup he signed them up for the dual tuner DVR and bought them a fairly nice Yamaha HT setup with speakers and everything, never mind I had just gotten them a basic Insignia 5.1 receiver to go with the speaker setup they all ready had.
Later she couldn't figure out why the cable quit working and then found out that she was behind 3 months on the new setup. Her trailer park pays for basic cable, but not for extras like the DVR and the pay channels... They had no clue that it even had a DVR in the box, and they don't know how to use it either though I managed to get step dad to record one sports show he was trying to get me to record for him...
They never got past VCRplus and tapes and still don't have a clue. I did get them a 880 remote so that they could just push the function they needed, once they figured out the help button they have been off and running with that.

The price sensitivity issue in North America is fickle and unpredictable: people here willingly fork over exhorbitant sums of money and happily overpay for some things, while completely ignoring others (like DVD/HDD recorders) which arguably have an even better price/utility ratio. Consumer perception of value is utterly random: if it wasn't, ad agencies wouldn't exist. The most astonishing examples of products people will sell their souls to own are the heinously expensive Apple iPods, Sony Playstations + games, and luxe cell phones. All of these are far beyond any meaningful equation of what you actually get for the excessive money, yet people flock to them like flies to sh*t nonetheless.

What's even more fascinating is the way those same consumers condition themselves to assess relative "ease of use". The iPod/iTunes horror show has to be the single most psychotically consumer-hostile system to ever gain majority market share, but people will happily focus their brains, slog thru, and learn the arcane interface to getting stuff onto and off of an iPod (lets not even start on the iPhones, or BlackBerrys and texting, FaceBook/Twitter/Blogging and all that other tedious crap we all waste our lives plugged into.)

The very same folks who will tolerate the ridiculous iTunes interface and spend hours designing a FaceBook page (that their friends only log into to jeer at) and Twittering about their macrobiotic diets almost monolithically insist DVD recorders are "too complicated" and find the mere thought of finalizing a DVD to be completely incomprehensible, never mind perceiving the amazing utility of a DVD recorder with HDD. Yet they manage somehow to download and assemble pirated copies of Terminator 4 from 5 different segments loaded on 5 different torrent sites- that, they comprehend.

The contradictions in all this are very interesting, it might make a great masters thesis for a sociology student.:rolleyes: And yes, I use an iPod- mostly to catch up on backlogged TV series I transfer over from DVDR using Handbrake (talk about arcane).;)

LOL right on! Indeed, the average NorthAmerican consumer does not comprehend the price/utility ratio. That's partly why we hear so many complaints about certain products that are otherwise fine and at the end of the day better value.
another point of irony in this theme is that for reasons I can not comprehend the average consumer will willingly spend $300 on a HDD only when for the same money they can get something that not only allows everything one can do with a HDD DVR and just as simply, but also allows archiving. Same price, better machine and yet they go for the lesser value one everytime. Even more ironic than that is when they realize that they want or need to aechive and then can't because they blew their whole wad on what they errantly saw as "better value". Then they come into forums and go back to retailers and complain about their own uninformed decision.
Don't get me started on the cell-phone craze. I would'nt give you half a dollar for a warehouse full of those fancy-blackberry-"do everything" poorly phones. Sure let's spend $200 on one of those complicated, arachiac coded, phones that do too many things poorly plus the monthly $300 bill to use it all. Good heavens!
I don't even know what a Twitter is. (I'm half Brit so know what a twit is).:p
I have never seen an Ipod in operation and have no need for one. Anyway, like I said, don't get me started.;)

This comment is dead on the money. Have a look at some of the other forum discussion groups devoted to TV shows on DVD. They are heavily populated with people moaning and crying that the studios aren't putting out their "must have" favorite show out on DVD. Ironically, many of their requests are for shows that have aired within the last few years. If you ask these people "if it was such an all-time favorite show, why didn't you record it yourself when it aired?". The answer is always "Oh, it's too complicated to record these things". Yet these same people were able to learn to use a computer; surf the internet; sign up for discussion groups and become regular posters; download files; manage e-mail accounts etc....

Remember when VCRs came out? Not only did people complain about how complicated they were when they were popular, but to this day there are tens of thousands of them still sitting in peoples homes blinking 12:00.

another point of irony in this theme is that for reasons I can not comprehend the average consumer will willingly spend $300 on a HDD only when for the same money they can get something that not only allows everything one can do with a HDD DVR and just as simply, but also allows archiving.

But a DVD recorder can't do everything an HDD DVR can do. DVD recorders can't timeshift high definition. They're standard definition only, which on a 50" TV isn't stellar. DVD recorders don't have gigantic terabyte hard drives, DVRs do now.

DVD recorders can't accept a cableCARD to decrypt certain channels (often the popular ones). Almost every current DVR has support for cableCARD.

The ones that have TVGOS have guides, but TiVo's guide by some accounts works better and will still be functional after the analog shutdown. And as said before, the majority don't want to archive.

So a DVD recorder isn't a better machine for everyone, just to those who have a use for its features. They're not a direct swap for a DVR. Let's keep just a little perspective. ;)

I'm wondering if one could hook a disc only based DVD recorder to a TIVO and record off of it for those who have one of these devices? They probably have it set up to prevent people from doing that, but I really don't know as I do not own one of those devices.


Yes you can and if the source program was HD you get a nice DVD quality picture. If you have a home network you can even send the programs on your Tivo to your PC where you can burn them to DVD in either in HD or SD.
Personally I just use the Tivo's S-video output to feed anyone of my DVDRs and this works quite nicely. Others who use the PC method can archive whole seasons of programs to external HDDs.

But a DVD recorder can't do everything an HDD DVR can do. DVD recorders can't timeshift high definition. They're standard definition only, which on a 50" TV isn't stellar. DVD recorders don't have gigantic terabyte hard drives, DVRs do now.

DVD recorders can't accept a cableCARD to decrypt certain channels (often the popular ones). Almost every current DVR has support for cableCARD.

The ones that have TVGOS have guides, but TiVo's guide by some accounts works better and will still be functional after the analog shutdown. And as said before, the majority don't want to archive.

So a DVD recorder isn't a better machine for everyone, just to those who have a use for its features. They're not a direct swap for a DVR. Let's keep just a little perspective. ;)


I stand corrected. Just goes to show we all have different needs. Also I am not all that familiar with true DVRs as "I have no use for one" since I don't watch TV comparitively speaking.

Your right, DVD recorders with HDDs can't timeshift now matter how big the HDD is nor can they archive to DVD in HD. (They can record to the HDD in HD I imagine provided the source is HD).
I have a 40-inch 60Hz HD Samsung and SD isn't stellar on that either and that's after calibration. Thankfully my DVD player will upconvert anything you throw at it to 1080p so that helps a little although it is still not HD. I don't have cable hooked up to it because there is nothing to watch that is within my interest and Time Warner does not have HD anyway. (They claim they do, but it's not there, I've tested it just for giggles. I think it might be something one has to pay an extra $20 per month for or something). Most broadcasts are not in 1080 anyway.
I tried my Xena DVDs the other night and had to put the TV to movie mode to make it look its best. Darn! I wanted to scare myself with her coming at me in brillant clarity.(Alright now hold the Xena jokes. Come on they were good stories at least if nothing more). :)
What is interesting though is that I also have my PC hooked up to the TV and the pic quality is better from places like Hulu than what comes over the cable line. Can't quite figure that one out though I have theories (You tube is well....not so hot on the TV even in HQ. Haven't figured out why that is yet). The PC is the other thing I will be recording from.

Yes you can and if the source program was HD you get a nice DVD quality picture. If you have a home network you can even send the programs on your Tivo to your PC where you can burn them to DVD in either in HD or SD.
Personally I just use the Tivo's S-video output to feed anyone of my DVDRs and this works quite nicely. Others who use the PC method can archive whole seasons of programs to external HDDs.

I imagine that is excellent news for owners of DVRs! If I had one I'd be glad to know that.:)

Remember when VCRs came out? Not only did people complain about how complicated they were when they were popular, but to this day there are tens of thousands of them still sitting in peoples homes blinking 12:00.

Sometimes their loss is our gain :). I recently picked up a Toshiba RD-KX50 off Craigslist. The guy was asking too much and got no offers locally so he shipped it to me for a bottom feeder price. He did tell me it was never used since he couldn't figure out how to use it after he got it from BestBuy for $400 and had the Geeksquad set it up.

When I received it, the IR Blaster unit was attached with double-sided tape to the front panel, facing forward (???). The last recording was in June 2006. The first recording ran 3 hrs and was fine (probably set up by the Squad). The next five recordings were salt and pepper screen. He progressed beyond that with actual video on 4-5 recordings, but each lasted only 10-15 seconds.

So essentially I got a brand-new recorder which hasn't been used in the last 3 years ;).

Your right, DVD recorders with HDDs can't timeshift now matter how big the HDD is nor can they archive to DVD in HD. (They can record to the HDD in HD I imagine provided the source is HD).

No, not really. I'm not sure the firmware/hardware allows HD recording on the hard drive. Plus, the inputs are limited to S-video and composite video, neither of which allows anything above 480i resolution.

There were a small handful of DVD recorders with component video inputs, but I don't think those had HD capability, either.

Hmm, I think the Pioneer might have component inputs, I'll have to look at the manual again. I hope so I don't want to use S-video or composite, I'm tired of those two interfaces. I think your right about component not being HD capable. I'm just thinking if I have the PC hooked up to my TV via RGB/SVGA that is not HD, but does go high res although it still is 480i, but looks far better than when I tried cable out on it. Then my DVD player upscales everything to 1080i and 1080p respectively...and...this is getting confusing. I'll have to wait and experiment I think. I don't expect to get HD anyway. I'm just surprised about the ability to record Dolby sound and 5.1 Dolby on the audio end of things. I need to make sure I read that correctly.

No regular dvd recorder can record in HD. the best they can do is 480i I think like when I did it with my old Polaroid. Anything other then that resulted in no video recorded.
Component outs can do up to 1080p or maybe better someday but everyone is trying to get that shut down because they want secure DRM paths for everything like in HDMI.
My LG 4200a tuner does 1080i through component outs or through DVI, HDMI was very new when it was built so they didn't include it. I'm using it through component out now to my Toshiba 34hfx84 34" CRT HDTV and it looks great.

None of the Pioneers have component inputs- only outputs, like 90% of all DVD recorders. The only ones that had component inputs were the early Phillips, Polaroid and Sony models (maybe there was a Panasonic, if so it was a long time ago). To get the maximum recording quality on typical recorders like the Pioneer or Panasonics discussed in this thread, you'd need a cable/satellite box that can be set to output anamorphic (squeezed) video thru its S-video jack. If it can't, you'll need to pick up an interface box that converts the component output of the box into an S-video connection for the recorder (look into the "cheaper component to S-video converter" thread for good advice). Those who get good reception off-air can attach one of the govt-subsidized ATSC converter tuners like the Zenith DTT901 or Channel Master CM-7000 to any recorder, and set the tuner to output anamorphic over its standard line out (Zenith) or S-video jack (Channel Master).

These options will get you the maximum 480i widescreen quality these machines are capable of. If you don't use any of those workarounds, you'll end up with 4:3 letterboxed recordings which will need to be zoomed on your 16:9 tv, diminishing the picture quality significantly. (As jjeff will tell you, TiVO has stolen a lot of sales from DVD recorders not just because its easier to timeshift with, its also the easiest route to 16:9 HiDef recording.)

Somebody said in a thread here once that they had a Samsung with component in, too. Don't know which model number it was, but I seem to remember seeing it in one of my Crutchfield catalogs at one time (think it was around the time the Sony HX715 was out - which was after the HX900).

Also, everybody here who has said they've compared the Tivax CECB to the Zenith says it has better PQ than the Zenith (both using composite). I would tend to trust that assessment, as just about every comparison review I've read on the internet says the same thing. They all rate the Tivax in the very top tier ("best"), while they usually put the Zenith in the second, middle tier ("good"). Can't say myself if it's a better all-around box though, as I've never had one - just the Zenith - and the Zenith is an excellent, all-around box - arguably the best.

But if your main concern is picture quality, they say it's actually not that far behind the CM's s-video PQ. (Usually I'd only go by something like that if I saw it with my own eyes, as people who know me better here know - but since all of these people and reviewers have actually compared the two head-to-head - and it's such an overwhelming consensus - I'd trust it. I will say that I don't all know what sized TV's these people have compared them on, and if they've used an HD display or not. So that's something to keep in mind. But if you're looking for a box with the best composite PQ, I would assume you're probably not using it on an HD display anyway - because it'd be best just to get the CM for that.)

I've never seen a Tivax in stores in my area, so haven't tried one. I do notice many online vendors now redirect attempts to buy the (apparently discontinued) Zenith into a Tivax spec page, so it seems to be the default alternative to the Zenith. The reviews I've seen of the Tivax have been the predictable "50% love it, 50% say it sucks" percentage almost all of these boxes get, but the consensus may be different here on AVS where the user testing is more rigorous. I would tend to believe the perspective from members here over, say, buy.com or amazon reviews.

Yeah, like I said, I'm only going by what I hear about the PQ. I really don't know about the box much otherwise - other than what jjeff said about one of their HD boxes when he tried one not long ago - that it sucked big time.

As far as the comparison reviews of the models, the PQ part is what I tend to file away and remember the most - as that's always my own, personal priority. I'm super, super picky about that. Has to be sharp, otherwise I can't stand to watch it for long. And the sharper the better (that's why I like the PQ from the Panny recorders digital tuner, and why I don't care for the Funai's - the Funai's to me is too "smeary" or "waxy" and lacking in detail. They also have that black crush problem, which almost totally wipes out any detail in the blacks. Colors are too over-saturated, also (which I think is related to the picture just being too overall dark). I'll take the "graininess" of the Pannies anyday over that).

Which is not to say that I don't recommend one for someone who wants an HDD/DVD recorder with a built-in digital tuner - because it's the only choice, and it's watchable for most people on a 480i analog CRT. Like I said, though - I'm super picky about that sort of thing. I thought it was acceptable on my 32" analog, but I found it totally unwatchable on my larger, HD display. The Panny digital tuners and the CM I could live with on the HD display, though.

Just mentioning this because I think the OP mentioned having an HD display. It's just too darned bad that nobody currently sells a standalone, ATSC/QAM (and NTSC would be nice - even with the H260F's pass-through, it's still easier to use when the NTSC's integrated, should you need NTSC) HD tuner with timers. That would just about solve everything (provided it has the right aspect ratios to use on a 4:3 display - which the H260F didn't).

The Magnavox H2160 would have been the ideal solution for you. Unfortunately the mfr made a boneheaded firmware change to the second production run (known as the "H2160A"). These defective units are the only ones currently available thru Wal*Mart, and the company that actually makes these recorders is not known for fixing their screwups by providing downloadable updates. So we can no longer recommend this model. If you can find the earlier version dated 2008 from a reliable eBay dealer, they're great, but avoid the current version.

Alternatives are few. Like you, I have a huge number of VHS tapes I need transferred to DVD so I can reclaim my living space. I have been steadily knocking these transfers off over the last few years, and can say I heartily agree with DigaDo that you will not be satisfied with anything less than a DVD recorder with hard drive: there's just no other way to go short of using a PC, which is much more tedious. Sadly, the USA market did not buy DVD/HDD recorders so all but the Magnavox have been pulled from stores. Those of us who need them now resort to eBay for overstock or second hand machines. Of these, the best current recommendation is the Pioneer 460 which is available periodically thru 4 or 5 Canadian clearance dealers on eBay. The 460 is a 2008 model, routinely sold as "new open box" for about $239-269 + $35 shipping from Canada to USA. It is a wonderful machine, similar to the Magnavox but with improved features for recording/editing VHS dubs. It does not have the ATSC tuner which will be necessary in two weeks for "free" TV: for this you need to connect an outboard tuner (most of us here use the Zenith DTT901 or Channel Master CM-7000). You can order two $40 gov't subsidy coupons from the DTV hotline which brings the price of these accessory tuners down to about $20 each.

Of course you could wait it out, and see if if a firmware update or recall turns up for the Magnavox. It is more convenient in that it has the ATSC tuner integrated in the recorder, and is in fact the only DVD/HDD recorder with integrated ATSC. But it may be a long wait, and the machine was already discontinued once before (Wal*Mart put in an 11th-hour reorder, which may be why the second run is problematic.) If you want to ensure you'll get a machine good for your task, opt for the Pioneer + tuner or perhaps look for a Phillips 3576 (sister to the Magnavox without the defects) on eBay. All these DVD/HDD units get scarcer and more expensive as time passes.

Note that NONE of the available new or used recorders will allow you to create thumbnails for chapters. You can create thumbnails for titles, meaning if you have five half-hour sitcom episodes on a disc each one will appear separately in the disc menu with its own thumbnail. But you cannot further break that down into a submenu directly accessing chapters: you can only add "invisible" chapter marks within each title, which you can skip to using the chapter buttons on a DVD player. If you want to get wild and crazy with disc menus, you can always rip the recorder DVDs into a PC authoring program later. (You will doubtless hear of the legendary long-discontinued Toshiba XS recorders, which were the only ones to offer chapter thumbnail authoring: avoid these. Finding a used Toshiba in good, durable condition at a reasonable price is almost impossible, they are best left to those who already own them and know how to carefully shop a used one.)
You can also upgrade your 3575/3576/2080/2160 to interface with estat drives. Never run out of recording space again, just add a new 500gb drive.:D
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12355769&postcount=39

I found the EH55 to be near perfect and has been trouble free for me. My old E80H just sits in a box now since I have been unable to sell it for my asking price, which is well below $1,000 if anyone is interested! LOL!

the PQ part is what I tend to file away and remember the most - as that's always my own, personal priority. I'm super, super picky about that. Has to be sharp, otherwise I can't stand to watch it for long. And the sharper the better (that's why I like the PQ from the Panny recorders digital tuner

I know I'm being lazy and should check the Panasonic threads:o, but since you bring it up I'd like to ask what your personal experience has been with the ATSC Pannies? Do you have the 2007 or 2008 models? Have you had frequent failures of the tuner/timer function? I know you're one of the more technically picky among us, so I'd love your take on this. I agree with you that a lot of digital video has that really annoying "claymation" look, it drives me up the wall: I'd rather have realistic detail at the expense of a little noise. If the Panny ATSC tuners are noticeably decent, I'm seriously thinking of getting one just for the tuner/timer functionality and using it to feed my analog Pioneer DVD/HDD recorders (I think it would provide a better signal feed than most CECBs and add the ability to change channels on its own, a function none of the CECBs has implemented with anything close to reliability). My only concern is the reports about the digital Pannies tripping all over themselves in timer mode and having to be rebooted constantly: that would defeat my intent to use them as a signal source. Have you had many problems with the tuner/timer?

Don't even think of getting a '07 EZ-x7 series. They were the very buggy models that I managed to have 6 die within about a 6 month period. Thank heavens for Panasonics 1 year warranty.
The '08/'09 EZ-x8 series (maybe not the problematic EZ-48v) have proven far more reliable. Not to the point of the older ES/EH series but certainly usable. The EZ-28 would probably be your best bet.
Were you planing on programming both the Panny and your Pio's timers and then just using the line output of the Panny to feed the line input of your Pio? That should work since I believe? the EZ series output when recording in timer mode. It wouldn't really work with the older ES/EH series which need to be turned ON (even during a scheduled event) to output video. A workaround with the ES/EH series would be to just leave the DVDR ON all the time, since that series would start a scheduled event whether OFF or ON, unlike the EZ's which must be OFF to start a scheduled event.

AFA using the Panny for a tuner, it would work but when I tried it (EZ-17 feeding a older ES series) I didn't really get as good of a picture as recording directly in the EZ-17, even using S-video. I don't know why I wasn't able to attain a similar picture as a direct record in the EZ-17 but if you're just recording OTA I'd say you'd probably get a better picture from using a CM-7000 and S-video. Of course for QAM the CM is useless.
I did notice a slightly better picture with the EZ-x8 series compared to the x7 series but again for just a tuner use I was most impressed with the CM CECB(which unfortunately lacks any timer that you want). If you have 2 open line inputs you could do as I do/did which was to have one CM tuned to one channel and the other to another. At least that way I had a many event 2 channel system. It worked for me since 90% of my recording was from one network (CBS) and only the odd recording from other channels.

Thanks for all the info, jjeff!:) Now that I think of it, I constantly forget that the 2006-2008 Pioneers have burners that are DVD-RAM compatible with the Panasonics. This presents another possibility: record off-air ATSC shows directly on a Panasonic using RAM discs, retaining the full Panny tuner quality (and possibly the widescreen flag?), then put those RAM discs into the Pioneer and high-speed copy the contents losslessly to the Pio hard drive for final editing and transfer to DVD-R. This would in effect create a "Frankenstein" Piosonic ATSC DVD/HDD recorder. It would be nice to finally use the Pioneer DVD-RAM feature again, last time I bothered was a couple years ago to transfer over some recordings from my old JVC machine. I always thought the RAM feature was kinda redundant on a hard drive recorder, because I almost always use the hard drive for everything but the final DVDR copy. Now I'm real glad the Pio can read/write RAM discs: the notion of a Panny ATSC/RAM front end married to a Pio HDD/DVD-R back end could be way cool!:D Other than a few off-air network series, most of my recording comes in via cable (HBO, F/X, TCM) to the Pio hard drives so the capacity limits of a RAM disc shouldn't be a problem. I just need to free up the limited timer slots in the cable box by using ATSC for anything that comes in good via OTA (I'm lucky: my ATSC reception is way better than my analog OTA was).

Were you planing on programming both the Panny and your Pio's timers and then just using the line output of the Panny to feed the line input of your Pio? That should work since I believe? the EZ series output when recording in timer mode. It wouldn't really work with the older ES/EH series which need to be turned ON (even during a scheduled event) to output video. A workaround with the ES/EH series would be to just leave the DVDR ON all the time, since that series would start a scheduled event whether OFF or ON, unlike the EZ's which must be OFF to start a scheduled event.

. . . If you have 2 open line inputs you could do as I do/did which was to have one CM tuned to one channel and the other to another. At least that way I had a many event 2 channel system. It worked for me since 90% of my recording was from one network (CBS) and only the odd recording from other channels.

Jeff,

Responding to your "I believe?" qualification, I can confirm that your descriptions are correct.

I used two Zenith CECBs connected to an analog tuner Panasonic DMR-ES15 for a few months. Currently just one Zenith is set up with a Panasonic DMR-ES35V (the "parts machine" recently brought back to full functionality). I'm also using an ATSC tuner Sylvania ZV450SL8 for OTA recording. The Zenith/Panasonic pair takes care of repeat schedule recording on a single channel while the Sylvania takes care of everything else OTA. This arrangement allows recording two channels at the same time. (I just remembered that I forgot to swap in a new disc in the Panny for a movie that began two hours ago--I was doin' stuff at the AVS Forum at that time--but aren't these marvelous old Panasonics supposed to have a voice that yells "hey dummy I need a new disc!")

Citibear,
That may or may not work. Strictly in the Panasonic world you cannot take a RAM disc recorded in a non HDD machine and HS dub it to the HDD of a HDD machine. Something about the way the RAM disc is recorded in the non HDD machine. You can real time dub the RAM disc to the HDD though and you can also HS dub a RAM disc in one Panny recorded in another Panny that has a HDD. I couldn't tell you though if you could HS dub a non HDD RAM disc in a Pioneer though. Sounds like a good question for someone with a non HDD Panny and a Pio;)
It's an interesting thought.

Digado, thanks for the conformation, it's been a while since I used a EZ series and wasn't sure enough to give a definitive statement.

Oh, man, I hope someone who owns both a Panny EZ and a Pio DVD/HDD unit can confirm whether my idea would work! It would great not to have to worry about leaving multiple CECBs turned on all the time or about how durable they might be: I'd much rather use a single ATSC-based recorder with its own multi-event timer. I know I can easily HS-lossless copy RAM discs burned on my 2005 JVC non-hdd recorder to my Pioneer 540, 450 and 460 hard drives: it works perfectly. Panasonic and JVC borrowed heavily from each other in those days, so I'm really hoping the Pios would be as fully compatible with Panny RAM discs as they are with JVC.

Thanks for all the info, jjeff!:) Now that I think of it, I constantly forget that the 2006-2008 Pioneers have burners that are DVD-RAM compatible with the Panasonics. This presents another possibility: record off-air ATSC shows directly on a Panasonic using RAM discs, retaining the full Panny tuner quality (and possibly the widescreen flag?), then put those RAM discs into the Pioneer and high-speed copy the contents losslessly to the Pio hard drive for final editing and transfer to DVD-R.

Citibear,
That may or may not work. Strictly in the Panasonic world you cannot take a RAM disc recorded in a non HDD machine and HS dub it to the HDD of a HDD machine. Something about the way the RAM disc is recorded in the non HDD machine. You can real time dub the RAM disc to the HDD though and you can also HS dub a RAM disc in one Panny recorded in another Panny that has a HDD. I couldn't tell you though if you could HS dub a non HDD RAM disc in a Pioneer though. Sounds like a good question for someone with a non HDD Panny and a Pio;)
It's an interesting thought.

I own a Panny ES30 DVD/VCR combo, EZ 47 & 48, and my darling EH85 HDD model. You can hi speed dub a RAM disc made on the non hdd models to the hard drive of the EH85...but you can not hi speed dub that material from the 85 to a dvd-r. Bummer, it's plain wacko that they wouldn't enable their later non hdd models to be compatible with their hard drive recorders.

Westly, you may be correct and that's maybe where I ran into problems. I wanted to record to RAM on my ES30v machines and then HS copy that to my EH-55 and edit it, then finally HS burn that to a -R disc(lossless all the way). I remember it couldn't be done without at least one real-time re-encode. I think I figured the best time to do the re-encode was from the RAM to the HDD and then I could HS off the HDD to a -R disc, thanks for clarifying. We still need to find someone with a Panny and Pio that uses RAM discs to see if what Citibear wants to do will work, let alone the problem of the HDD or non HDD recorder source disc.

Regarding the Panasonic RAM>HDD>DVDR limitation mentioned by others: I do know RAM discs recorded on my 2005 JVC DRM-V5 dvd/vhs combo deck have full lossless compatibility with all modes on my RAM-capable Pioneers. I can HS transfer the JVC RAM contents to the Pio hard drive, edit the title(s), then HS copy them from the HDD onto standard finalized DVD-R: no re-encoding is necessary at any stage. I'm hoping RAM discs recorded in a Panny EZ would function the same way. Interestingly, the new Pioneers and the old JVC have no problem "sharing" the same RAM disc, either: I can record a TV show on the JVC, put it into the Pioneer and record another one, and put it back in the JVC for a third. Considering the RAM drive in the Pioneer is actually made by Sony(!), this indicates a fairly high level of compatibility in the RAM format. Maybe the RAM>HDD>DVR gotcha is just specific to some aspect of Panasonic HDD recorder firmware? Guess I may just have to buy a Panny EZ-28 and report back to you guys!

Okay, as far as high speed copy is concerned, the following should be remembered. (As an example) on page 61 of the EH55 manual, there is a setup enty for "Enable High-Speed Mode". The non HDD equipped models, have no such setup entry, therefore HS dubbing is not supported on recordings from these machines. I think that it was a mistake to not have the option, but since the machines are incapable of HS operations, I guess there was no good economic reason to support it.

I also should note the following. "Recording both Main and SAP for MTS broadcasts," and "Recording 16:9 aspect picture," are supported to the internal hard drive and -RAM disks, but only when "Enable High-Speed Mode" is set to "Off." The 16:9 thing is the WS flag preservation.

Have I made things clearer, or do I need to try again?

I believe the "gotcha" has to do with aspect ratio and maybe the flags.
My EH-55 (and I assume other Pannys with a HDD) have a setup option which when enabled allows you to HS copy that title to a standard DVD. If you have the HS option turned ON(which I would think anybody would probably want, even though I don't believe it's the default) anyway when it's ON the manual warns "16:9 programs will be recorded in the 4:3 aspect" whatever the heck that means because I have mine ON and I record and play in full 16:9 all the time:confused:
So I'm guessing when you have that option ON it also records RAM discs in a similar fashion. That is you can HS content but "16:9 programs will be recorded in the 4:3 aspect":confused:
On non HDD Pannys they do not have this HS menu option so maybe the default is OFF which does not enable HS? This kind of makes sense since in non HDD Pannys they warn something like "only RAM discs record 16:9 material in the 16:9 format" which again is bogus since I record 16:9 all the time to -R discs in any of my Pannys:confused:
I think Panasonic is confusing 16:9 format with the 16:9 flag but I'm not positive.

Edit: I was typing when Luke must have posted, I think we said a similar thing:)