I have some old VHS tapes that I want to transfer onto DVD and/or my computer. So I'd like to get a DVD recorder with hard drive to handle that. Then after I'm done copying the VHS tapes, I'll let my parents have the unit so they won't have to worry about tapes getting stuck in their VCR and they will also be able to store a lot of programs on the hard drive, instead of just 6 hours on a tape.

I see several refurbished units on ebay, so I'm wondering which one to get.

I've read that the Philips DVDR3576H/DVDR3575H are the only ones with a digital tuner. My parents already have a digital converter box, although it is kind of flaky (sometimes changes channels by itself which means the VCR records the wrong show, and it sometimes turns off by itself). So maybe the digital tuner in the DVDR3576H will be better, although my parents have cable too, so they could probably do without the digital over-the-air signal. You can't use the digital tuner AND cable at the same time, can you? I do remember there was a channel they watched using the digital converter box, and that channel wasn't available thru their cable subscription.

But I've seen a few posts where people say the Philips picture quality and editing features aren't as good as Pioneers or Panasonics. Would the picture quality affect my VHS transfers to DVD/HDD? And let me ask you this - how easy would it be to transfer my VHS tapes to DVD without doing any edits on the DVD recorder, and then do all my editing on the computer? I imagine there is software (hopefully free) that has all the editing features I could ever need?

Hmm, looks like the Panasonics available on ebay are all way more expensive than the Philips. There are some Pioneer DVR-460H-K, DVR-420H-S, and DVR-633H units - what do you guys think about those?

I also see a lot of the RCA DRC8030N, which might be the cheapest option. Any opinions on that one? There are also some LG, Polaroid, Emerson, Sylvania, and JVC units - would any of those brands warrant consideration?

One more question, I think I remember seeing a post where someone said that the DVDs recorded by a certain unit could only be played in that unit, they could not be played in any other players. Is this a widespread problem, or only with a few recorders?

Thanks for any advice!

I'm not sure about buying a refurb unit. I rarely see that recommended, probably because of the iffy nature of the hard drive. Plus, I would imagine anything that isn't beaten to hell is being cared for by AV enthusiasts, whom you will have to pry any quality recorder out of their cold dead hands.

You can record to a DVD and rip to a computer and edit that way. I would think the recorder would be more intuitive, but a PC would have more powerful editing features, provided you had the right software (read, not free.) If you're not that tech savvy, I'd stick to a recorder.


One more question, I think I remember seeing a post where someone said that the DVDs recorded by a certain unit could only be played in that unit, they could not be played in any other players. Is this a widespread problem, or only with a few recorders?


That sounds like either the disc wasn't finalized, or the disc was a DVD-RAM or something. If a disc is finalized, it should play in almost anything that plays DVDs. If not, it'll play only in recorders.

If it's a RAM disc, it needs something that can read RAM discs. That tends to be Panasonic and Pioneer recorders and I think Panny players. It should have a DVD-RAM logo. But if you had a DVD-RAM disc and recorder, you'd generally know it. The discs are pricey.

The first thing you need to do is forget the notion of using the recorder to do your VHS conversion project and then handing it off to your parents to replace their VCR: unless you're 18 and your parents are under 40, they will take the DVD recorder and beat you into a coma with it within a week of giving it to them. Bad idea. There is no free lunch: if you can't afford to blow money on a DVD recorder just for yourself, then don't do it.

The recorder market in North America is in total disarray right now, and well on its way to oblivion. In the past many of us tended to pussyfoot and qualify recommendations so as to not hurt the feelings of those who prefer one brand or solution over another. We don't have the luxury of time or availability to do that anymore, so I'm just gonna say it straight out: man up, borrow some serious dough if you haven't saved up yet, and either scour eBay for a Canadian Pioneer DVR-460 ($300-400 delivered) or buy a Panasonic EH-67 from B&H Photo Video or J&R Electronics in New York for approx $400. Neither of these has a USA digital tuner, so TV show recording would require an accessory ATSC box, cable or satellite.

But they are ideal for dubbing VHS tapes: rugged, easy to use hard drive editing, solid recording and burning quality, and good resale value if you choose to resell after you're finished with your tape transfers. They also make highly compatible DVD-Rs that play well on most other hardware (what you've heard is true: even after finalizing, a surprising number of DVD recorders create DVDs that don't play so great on a lot of other hardware). The advantages of a hard drive DVD recorder over dubbing VHS to a PC is ease of use and suitability for the task. A Pioneer or Panasonic DVD/HDD deck is designed with the expectation you will use it to copy your old tapes, they have stable input circuits that don't go all buggy at the slightest hiccup in a VHS tape. PCs by contrast are a can of worms: if you're very lucky, you have the right encoder board housed in the right PC with the right software to handle VHS input with ease. But most people aren't lucky: the PC stutters, chokes, gags and spits on every other tape you try to transfer, because the idiot encoder board mfrs bizarrely think the analog video inputs on these boards are merely there for decoration, "no one is really going to want to convert a VHS tape, are they?" Morons.

Its true most of the difficulty is with the capture from the tape, so you could of course buy one of the slightly cheaper $225 non-hard-drive Panasonics (EA-18, EA-38), use it to capture the basic VHS output to a DVD, then put that "draft" DVD into your PC and rip it to the PC hard drive for elaborate editing and authoring. Many people do this, especially if they want really nice custom DVD menus and so forth. But it adds a lot of steps, its time consuming, and its tedious if you have quite a few tapes to transfer that are mostly of TV shows, sports or movies: this is much more efficiently handled by keeping the entire process from capture to final DVD within the one-box DVD/HDD recorder.

Of all the other DVD recorders you mention, almost all are hopeless trainwrecks with nothing but trouble reports here. None are what you'd call really cheap, so why knock yourself out with something that will disappoint? About the only advantage they offer is biult-in digital ATSC tuner, but that advantage is nullified by ATSC interfering with the clock circuits and making timer recording an unreliable ordeal. Plus, the whole QAM transition has been little more than a joke: everyone with cable is going to end up with a decoder box by 2010. So no true advantage really: what you have in most of these is a junky $60 dvd recorder with an unreliable $175 ATSC/QAM tuner-tmer grafted into it.

The only ones of these that were any good were the Phillips 3576 and the Magnavox H2160 twins. They are somewhat simplified DVD/hard drive recorders along the lines of the Panasonic or Pioneer, they trade a slightly kludgier editing interface for a very good ATSC/QAM tuner-timer that is apparently the only reliable one put into a recorder. For those who expect to do mostly off-air recordings (as opposed to cables/satellite or tape transfers), the Phillips/Magnavox are an attractive option at $260-300 approx. The disadvantage of these is their cable/QAM tuners can be erratic due to cable companies constantly screwing with the signal, and the latest run of the Magnavox has a bug that prevents using the DVD burner if any timer recordings are scheduled. These machines are a good option for the tech-inclined but not the best choice as parental "recorders for dummies" use. Unless the parents have a particular desire to burn DVDs of their favorite shows, its far better to talk them into the cable company's own integrated decoder box/recorder or a TiVO. Take it from me, you don't want your mother and father calling you a dozen times a day because they're missing their favorite shows.

I have some old VHS tapes that I want to transfer onto DVD and/or my computer. So I'd like to get a DVD recorder with hard drive to handle that. Then after I'm done copying the VHS tapes, I'll let my parents have the unit so they won't have to worry about tapes getting stuck in their VCR and they will also be able to store a lot of programs on the hard drive, instead of just 6 hours on a tape.

I see several refurbished units on ebay, so I'm wondering which one to get.

I've read that the Philips DVDR3576H/DVDR3575H are the only ones with a digital tuner. My parents already have a digital converter box, although it is kind of flaky (sometimes changes channels by itself which means the VCR records the wrong show, and it sometimes turns off by itself). So maybe the digital tuner in the DVDR3576H will be better, although my parents have cable too, so they could probably do without the digital over-the-air signal. You can't use the digital tuner AND cable at the same time, can you? I do remember there was a channel they watched using the digital converter box, and that channel wasn't available thru their cable subscription.

But I've seen a few posts where people say the Philips picture quality and editing features aren't as good as Pioneers or Panasonics. Would the picture quality affect my VHS transfers to DVD/HDD? And let me ask you this - how easy would it be to transfer my VHS tapes to DVD without doing any edits on the DVD recorder, and then do all my editing on the computer? I imagine there is software (hopefully free) that has all the editing features I could ever need?

Hmm, looks like the Panasonics available on ebay are all way more expensive than the Philips. There are some Pioneer DVR-460H-K, DVR-420H-S, and DVR-633H units - what do you guys think about those?

I also see a lot of the RCA DRC8030N, which might be the cheapest option. Any opinions on that one? There are also some LG, Polaroid, Emerson, Sylvania, and JVC units - would any of those brands warrant consideration?

One more question, I think I remember seeing a post where someone said that the DVDs recorded by a certain unit could only be played in that unit, they could not be played in any other players. Is this a widespread problem, or only with a few recorders?

Thanks for any advice!


How many VHS tapes do you have to copy and are they copyright protected?

Frankly, you may have difficulty buying a decent new unit and it may be more cost effective to talk to a local business that does tape transfers.

That being said, I am personally looking for the Magnivox at Walmart but it has issues, and we may have already missed the boat, Walmart lists it as out of stock.

I had a polaroid (model 2001 ?) unit a couple of years ago, it had a tuner that didn't work right, changed channels like molassis, couldn't get the aspect ratio right for my TV and a fan that sounded like a jet preparing for take-off. Other than that, I didn't care much for it.

I currently have a DVDR3576H and HDRW 720. I don't know if you can find a Philips unit but I used them to convert all of our home movies and the kids tapes to DVD, and they have held up well.

Good luck with your search.

...what you have in most of these is a junky $60 dvd recorder with an unreliable $175 ATSC/QAM tuner-timer grafted into it.If that ain't right on the money, then I don't know what is. :cool:

I wouldn't say the Magnavox or Philips have completely reliable QAM tuners, though. And I don't believe the blame for that can be entirely put on "the cable companies constantly screwing with the signal".

In reality, the quality control on them leaves something to be desired, as many people have to return them a couple of times before they get one they can even live with (and even in that case, they often just "settle", because they get tired of returning them and/or just figure that they'll never get one that works perfectly).

I've had many 3575's trying to find a couple with reliable QAM tuners in them. One never remembered my channels and they said a Firmware fix was coming so I hung onto it. Later they said it was a hardware problem so I missed the boat. About a year later I decided to try again and after 2 units the third one had a totally stable QAM tuner...then it ate it's dvd burner;)
I pulled the burner out of the one with the bad tuner and swapped em then sent that one into the extended warranty place. Now it records again but the tuner still forgets, the other one has been working like new again with the swapped burner:rolleyes:
Even with all that it still is the best choice if you want a HD equipped DVR with a full digital tuner and I'd buy one again, just be way more picky to get a stable one. The later 3576 and Magnavox ones seem to have the tuner issues fixed but the a model maggy wont finalize disks with a timer recording set, they claim FW may fix it now depending on who you talk to.
Unfortunately the big boys gave up when we refused to pay 700 bucks for a recorder and the movie industry is thrilled they did.

I wouldn't say the Magnavox or Philips have completely reliable QAM tuners, though. And I don't believe the blame for that can be entirely put on "the cable companies constantly screwing with the signal".

It depends where you live and what type of aggravation your particular cable franchise sticks you with. QAM was nothing more than a short-term sop to pacify those holdouts who would rather shoot their mother in the face with buckshot than use a decoder box: the FCC and the Feds knew damn well it was full of loopholes and only a matter of time before the cable monopolies found a way to neutralize QAM into insignificance. And largely, they already have. The cheap recorder tuners often don't lock onto the frequencies because the whole system is suspect to begin with, and none of these ATSC/QAM recorder mfrs really care anyway. They got railroaded into prematurely implementing a half-assed American DTV standard they loathe, so they grudgingly see to it the OTA portion works reasonably well but neglect the QAM functionality. Anyone who seriously thinks QAM will be of any earthly use after 2010 should buy stock in the Brooklyn Bridge: I'm sorry, QAM is a total crock.:mad:

That shouldn't be taken as a defense of Phillips, Magnavox or any other mfrs whose QAM functionality stinks: as hopeless as QAM is, they are responsible to hold up their half of the devils bargain, if they don't they're as bad as the cable companies or the FCC. My praise for the Phillips/Magnavox tuner/timer reliability is specific to the ATSC portion of the tuner combined with the clock timer: if you comb thru the endless ATSC failure reports here on AVS (as those of us with no life tend to do:rolleyes:), you see a trend emerge: users who rely strictly on off-air ATSC rarely report problems with a Phillips or Magnavox failing to turn on at the programmed time to the programmed channel. They work about as well as the old analog tuner recorders. Every other brand and model with an ATSC tuner-timer is about as reliable for timeshifting as wrapping VHS tape around a brick and waving it in the air: they don't work.

IF you strictly use off-air antenna broadcasts and IF you want a DVD recorder and IF you do a lot of timeshifting, the Phillips/Magnavox are the only units that can be relied on to actually record anything unattended. Otherwise, for cable or satellite, the Canadian Pioneer x60 or Panasonic EH-67 import are preferable in some respects (albeit at a higher price tag). All other recorders for sale in North America are a complete gamble, with the odds stacked in favor of the house. Place your bets wisely.

Thanks for the replies guys. CitiBear - interesting name, you must be rich now? :)

The first thing you need to do is forget the notion of using the recorder to do your VHS conversion project and then handing it off to your parents to replace their VCR: unless you're 18 and your parents are under 40, they will take the DVD recorder and beat you into a coma with it within a week of giving it to them. Bad idea. There is no free lunch: if you can't afford to blow money on a DVD recorder just for yourself, then don't do it.OK, I am fine with getting a unit for myself, and another unit for my parents, if that is necessary.

The recorder market in North America is in total disarray right now, and well on its way to oblivion. In the past many of us tended to pussyfoot and qualify recommendations so as to not hurt the feelings of those who prefer one brand or solution over another. We don't have the luxury of time or availability to do that anymore, so I'm just gonna say it straight out: man up, borrow some serious dough if you haven't saved up yet, and either scour eBay for a Canadian Pioneer DVR-460 ($300-400 delivered) or buy a Panasonic EH-67 from B&H Photo Video or J&R Electronics in New York for approx $400. Neither of these has a USA digital tuner, so TV show recording would require an accessory ATSC box, cable or satellite. I just found this web site http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-recorders.htm, where it says that some JVC recorders are able to "clean the signal when converting VHS tapes" so the DVD copy actually looks better than the VHS copy. Do you know if the DVR-460 or EH-67 can do that?


Of all the other DVD recorders you mention, almost all are hopeless trainwrecks with nothing but trouble reports here. None are what you'd call really cheap, so why knock yourself out with something that will disappoint? About the only advantage they offer is biult-in digital ATSC tuner, but that advantage is nullified by ATSC interfering with the clock circuits and making timer recording an unreliable ordeal. Plus, the whole QAM transition has been little more than a joke: everyone with cable is going to end up with a decoder box by 2010. So no true advantage really: what you have in most of these is a junky $60 dvd recorder with an unreliable $175 ATSC/QAM tuner-tmer grafted into it. I've read that the Philips DVDR3576H (and maybe DVDR3575H) and its Magnavox twins are the ONLY ones with a digital tuner, no others have it.

The only ones of these that were any good were the Phillips 3576 and the Magnavox H2160 twins. They are somewhat simplified DVD/hard drive recorders along the lines of the Panasonic or Pioneer, they trade a slightly kludgier editing interface for a very good ATSC/QAM tuner-timer that is apparently the only reliable one put into a recorder. For those who expect to do mostly off-air recordings (as opposed to cables/satellite or tape transfers), the Phillips/Magnavox are an attractive option at $260-300 approx. The disadvantage of these is their cable/QAM tuners can be erratic due to cable companies constantly screwing with the signal,Why is that the case with DVD recorders, when it does not affect any of my parents' 10-year old VCRs?

and the latest run of the Magnavox has a bug that prevents using the DVD burner if any timer recordings are scheduled. I just found a thread about the Magnavox where it said they are supposed to be available at Target (at a higher price?!) in 2-6 weeks, possibly with a firmware fix for that problem. Maybe I will wait for that.

These machines are a good option for the tech-inclined but not the best choice as parental "recorders for dummies" use. Unless the parents have a particular desire to burn DVDs of their favorite shows, its far better to talk them into the cable company's own integrated decoder box/recorder or a TiVO. Take it from me, you don't want your mother and father calling you a dozen times a day because they're missing their favorite shows.Well my parents definitely don't want to have to pay a subscription fee for anything. But I heard that Tivo Series 1 units can record just like a VCR without a subscription, so that is another option I am considering. Do you know if the Tivos are as reliable for timer recording as VCRs? And can a Tivo record off a composite input (in case my parents want to record off their digital cable box), and also output a composite signal (in case my parents want to do something weird like transfer a Tivo recording to a VHS tape)? And can you watch a different channel while recording another channel on the Tivo? I've heard some of the DVD recorders (like the Philips) can't do that.

When I got my E80h I got one for my step dad as well for his birthday, it has sat there ever since and neither of them figured out how to use it even when I told him it has VCRplus which he used all the time with his other recorders.
Every time I go over there now it sits there flashing recover because the hard drive filled up and they never watched or deleted anything from it.
He later got a Toshiba and several others that had a vcr or other things but no hard drive in them and he doesn't use them either.
I hated the support calls as well and they finally gave up and so did I. I did get them a Logitech 880 remote though and they love that thing after I programed it for the one button activities they use, and explained about the help button the first time mom hit too many buttons and it didn't work...
My E80h still works fine though I hardly use it now with the 3575 with a 250 gig glued in :D

Hmm, the quote feature seems to be messed up. I tried quoting dangerdoc, but it kept showing CitiBear's post.

How many VHS tapes do you have to copy and are they copyright protected?Maybe around 5 or so. A few of them are sports games taped off TV, and the rest I bought before 1994. None of them are movies, a few are sports highlight videos, and one is a cartoon. Hmm, I wouldn't be surprised if my parents ask me to convert some of their VHS tapes to DVD though, so it might be more than 5. :)

Frankly, you may have difficulty buying a decent new unit and it may be more cost effective to talk to a local business that does tape transfers.Interesting idea, I hadn't thought of that.

That being said, I am personally looking for the Magnivox at Walmart but it has issues, and we may have already missed the boat, Walmart lists it as out of stock.But apparently Target will have it in 2-6 weeks. Is it exactly the same as the DVDR3576H?

If you really want a clean dvd copy of a VCR tape get a VCR or dvd recorder that has a Time Base Corrector circuit built in as it will slightly sharpen and clean up the weird color old slow LP tapes have when you play them back on anything with good resolution.
My JVC 9600 SVHS unit has it and it makes the older tapes very watchable when played or copied from it. The E80h also has something in it that seems to make the tapes clearer but I don't know if it actually has that feature or some other noise canceling features going on. There are other players and recorders that can do a excellent job cleaning up old tapes so you might want to do some searching if you decide to do more then the few you have now.

Why is that the case with DVD recorders, when it does not affect any of my parents' 10-year old VCRs?

You mean the digital tuner thing? Only one or two VCRs ever had digital tuners, and those were ATSC tuners for use with antennas, IIRC. They were expensive D-VHS models. No run of the mill VCR ever had a digital tuner.

Digital tuners are a whole different animal from analog tuners that VCRs had, and is why there's this whole dizzying array of issues, like encryption, separate tuner types for over-the-air and cable, gripes about the need for cable boxes, etc.



I just found a thread about the Magnavox where it said they are supposed to be available at Target (at a higher price?!) in 2-6 weeks, possibly with a firmware fix for that problem. Maybe I will wait for that.

The Philips and Magnavox HDD recorders at Target? That's news to me. I think they were a WalMart exclusive. Maybe Sam's Club (which is WalMart anyway.)

Target has had other DVD recorders, but they were the hard disk-less ones.


And can you watch a different channel while recording another channel on the Tivo? I've heard some of the DVD recorders (like the Philips) can't do that.

Yeah, TiVos have dual tuners. I don't think there was a DVD recorder with dual tuners. If there were, they're probably a rare (read: expensive) beast.

You mean the digital tuner thing? Only one or two VCRs ever had digital tuners, and those were ATSC tuners for use with antennas, IIRC. They were expensive D-VHS models. No run of the mill VCR ever had a digital tuner. He said "The disadvantage of these is their cable/QAM tuners can be erratic due to cable companies constantly screwing with the signal". So I thought he meant the analog tuner might also be erratic? BTW, does the digital tuner only handle the OTA digital signal? Or does it also handle the signal from a digital cable box? Or does the analog tuner handle the digital cable box signal? This is getting confusing.

Digital tuners are a whole different animal from analog tuners that VCRs had, and is why there's this whole dizzying array of issues, like encryption, separate tuner types for over-the-air and cable, gripes about the need for cable boxes, etc.My parents have their digital cable box hooked up to their VCR, so I guess the analog tuner handles that digital signal. But the digital cable box is connected to the VCR thru a composite cable, if that matters.

The Philips and Magnavox HDD recorders at Target? That's news to me. I think they were a WalMart exclusive. Maybe Sam's Club (which is WalMart anyway.)

Target has had other DVD recorders, but they were the hard disk-less ones.http://www.target.com/Magnavox-HDD-DVD-Recorder-H2160MW9/dp/B0020ZW8P8/sr=1-9/qid=1244651814/ref=sr_1_9/175-5030631-0405502?ie=UTF8&frombrowse=0&index=target&rh=k%3Amagnavox%20dvd%20recorder&page=1

Yeah, TiVos have dual tuners. I don't think there was a DVD recorder with dual tuners. If there were, they're probably a rare (read: expensive) beast.Even the Series 1 Tivos have dual tuners?

I have a Philips DVDR345H DVD recorder /player with built in 80 gig Hard drive. I no longer use it . Paid about $400 for it. Will sell for $100. PM me if interested.

Thanks for the replies guys. CitiBear - interesting name, you must be rich now? :)

I only wish!:) Nah, the name is just a combination of some other friends old CB radio handles.

OK, I am fine with getting a unit for myself, and another unit for my parents, if that is necessary.

It isn't necessary, but can be advisable depending on whether your needs and your parents are very different. Also, parents generally have a supremely hard time migrating from VHS recording to DVD: its so very strange for them. Now that you have provided more specifics on what you need to do yourself before giving them the recorder, and how they view their TV, I think you would be safe picking up just one recorder, and you could probably get by with the Magnavox and save some money over a Panasonic or Pioneer (they have slicker editing systems that are worth the extra money for someone with hundreds of VHS to edit, but if you only have a handful the Magnavox is just fine.) The image quality from VHS is fine on the Magnavox out to its 2.5 hour speed, for longer movies you might find the 3 hr speed acceptable, beyond that DVD starts looking awful so you'd need to divide any 6-hour VHS tapes into 2 or 3 SP-speed DVDs for best copy quality (easy to do with the Magnavox hard drive).

I just found this web site, where it says that some JVC recorders are able to "clean the signal when converting VHS tapes" so the DVD copy actually looks better than the VHS copy. Do you know if the DVR-460 or EH-67 can do that?

The website is somewhat out of date regarding recorder models and some media brands. The author has a great deal of experience doing professional and consumer tape-to-DVD transfers, and most of his more general advice and tips are excellent. However he's completely fixated on those JVC dvd recorders to the point where his advice regarding them is unrealistic to most other users. For one thing, they aren't THAT much better at copying VHS and in many cases the "filtering" makes your tapes look like mud. This type of video work cannot be discussed in absolutes: what looks great to one person looks awful to another. The JVC filters are not subtle: they are always on, and always turned up to "11", resulting in what many users would think is an overly-soft image from VHS. If you are extremely sensitive to the slightest bit of noise, you will think this effect is pleasingly smooth. Others might find it unwatchable.

Those particular JVCs were discontinued in 2005, are no longer available new (current JVCs are made by LG-awful), and are very unreliable as used items. I own two of them, they can be handy for some things, but they're an "acquired taste" and not really suited for general-purpose work.The Magnavox, Pioneer and Panasonics use newer circuits which more easily match up with a wider variety of VCRs and tapes (the old JVCs were rather picky), and they strike a good balance between image detail and noise smoothing. If the few tapes you have are priceless enough to worry about getting a flawless DVD transfer, consider getting a used Panasonic AG1980 or JVC SVHS/DVHS vcr with built-in TBC and noise reduction filters: it is better to control filtering at the tape end than the DVD recorder end of the chain.

I've read that the Philips DVDR3576H (and maybe DVDR3575H) and its Magnavox twins are the ONLY ones with a digital tuner, no others have it.

They are the only ones with both a digital tuner AND a hard drive, but there are many other brands/models that have a digital tuner without hard drive. As it turns out, the Phillips/Magnavox models with hard drive are the only ones that work reliably in timer mode, which means all the other digital recorders are near-useless ripoffs. For off-air use recording, the Phillips/Magnavox is the only practical choice. For use with a cable or satellite box, they work equally well and the Panasonic/Pioneer alternatives are even better.

Why is that the case with DVD recorders, when it does not affect any of my parents' 10-year old VCRs?

Because ten-year-old VCR analog tuners were made much better than this years analog/digital tuners. Because your parents lucked out with a cable franchise that is not yet screwing with the signal (its still analog, or their VCR would be showing a dead blue screen). Cable companies are chomping at the bit to kill off all analog "boxless" service and migrate completely to digital: digital saves them a ton of money and allows more channels and services. Whether we like it or not, business is business, and catering to people who "don't want any extra services, don't want premium channels, and don't want a decoder box" is no longer viable for these companies. Within the next 18 months, by hook or by crook, your parents area will go digital. What happens then depends on whether their particular cableco "plays nice": if it continues to offer boxless service using QAM properly, a recorder with a DTV tuner like the Magnavox will work as it should (but their VCR will not pick any channels up). If their cable company "plays rough" they will need to get a decoder box.

Once you start in with a decoder box, DVD recorders become a gigantic pain in the ass to use because they can't interface easily with the decoder for timer recording. Their DTV tuners become useless: instead of plugging the cable wire directly into the recorder tuner, you connect the recorder line inputs to the line outputs of the decoder box and then have to set timers on both the cable box and the recorder. Its doable if you're dedicated, most of us learn how, but you have to be motivated. The generic set of "parents", however, will lose their sh*t if confronted by this, thus the overnight success of extra-cost decoder boxes with built-in hard drive recorders coupled to the cable program grid in the box for "point to the show and click" timeshifting.

Well my parents definitely don't want to have to pay a subscription fee for anything.

Not to be snarkey, but "the parents will have to get over it". Mine did: two weeks of struggling to use the Phillips 3576 I gave them and they were out for blood, it just isn't workable with a decoder box unless you have patience and don't get rattled by technology. They finally caved and upgraded their decoder box to the recording version for $10 a month.

But I heard that Tivo Series 1 units can record just like a VCR without a subscription, so that is another option I am considering. Do you know if the Tivos are as reliable for timer recording as VCRs? And can a Tivo record off a composite input (in case my parents want to record off their digital cable box), and also output a composite signal (in case my parents want to do something weird like transfer a Tivo recording to a VHS tape)? And can you watch a different channel while recording another channel on the Tivo? I've heard some of the DVD recorders (like the Philips) can't do that.

It all depends on how you view money. There is no free lunch: TiVO wants those monthly subscriptions, thats how they make a profit. They grudgingly offer one-shot lifetime subscription plans to pacify those who can't abide monthly bills, but it isn't exactly cheap: its about $400 added to the $200 cost of the TiVO. You can rent the integrated cableco PVR for 6-7 years at that cost, so its relative. If you have the upfront money, and prefer the TiVO operation, its certainly good value for the money, but its totally subjective. (The old Series 1 units have to be bought used, the limited-function "free" subscription isn't all its cracked up to be, plus you need to make sure it can be adapted to work with your parents cable: I'd stick with a newer one.)

Yes, you can watch one channel while recording another with a TiVO (and the cable recorder). No, no DVD recorders can do that. Yes, you can play the contents of a TiVO (or cable recorder) via composite to a DVD recorder or VCR- many people who rarely need DVDs just hook up a cheap DVD recorder when necessary. TiVOs and cable boxes cannot however record from external devices, and it isn't necessary. TiVOs record either off-air, or via a cable chip supplied by your cable company (the TiVO replaces the decoder box).

The main advantage of a TiVO over a cable provided recorder is the TiVO has a more advanced timer system that can "read your mind" and do all sorts of tricks besides just simple timeshifting. Many people love these features, just as many have absolutely no use for them, but they are there. The secondary advantage of the TiVO is its ability to network with your computer: if you have some technical savvy, this allows you to back up the TiVO to your computer hard drive in standard def or HDTV, to make standard DVDs, and to make special HiDef DVDs playable on BluRay hardware.

None of this usually matters to generic "parents": they would be perfectly happy just using the rental PVR offered by the cable or satellite company. You'll just have to discuss the various options with them to see what they think will satisfy them.

He said "The disadvantage of these is their cable/QAM tuners can be erratic due to cable companies constantly screwing with the signal". So I thought he meant the analog tuner might also be erratic?

No, the cable companies screw with the digital (QAM) signal, causing the need for rescans. The analog signal should still work like any VCR's tuner will, but it's on borrowed time. Cable will get rid of the analog band, it's just a question of when.



BTW, does the digital tuner only handle the OTA digital signal? Or does it also handle the signal from a digital cable box? Or does the analog tuner handle the digital cable box signal? This is getting confusing.

There are two types of digital tuners, ATSC (for OTA) and QAM (for non-encrypted cable.) Analog tuners don't touch either.

But anything made in the last couple of years if it sports an analog tuner must also have an ATSC tuner. A QAM tuner is totally at the discretion of the manufacturer.

Encrypted cable needs something from the cable company to decrypt it. Usually a cable box.


My parents have their digital cable box hooked up to their VCR, so I guess the analog tuner handles that digital signal. But the digital cable box is connected to the VCR thru a composite cable, if that matters.

Nope, the analog tuner isn't touched through composite. The cable box is doing all the tuning.


http://www.target.com/Magnavox-HDD-DVD-Recorder-H2160MW9/dp/B0020ZW8P8/sr=1-9/qid=1244651814/ref=sr_1_9/175-5030631-0405502?ie=UTF8&frombrowse=0&index=target&rh=k%3Amagnavox%20dvd%20recorder&page=1


Well, news to me. :) Hopefully it's one of the good ones and the stock stays healthy for a bit.


Even the Series 1 Tivos have dual tuners?

I meant the new ones. Series 1 have been out of production for some time. I don't think you'd want to mess with those even if they were given away. Series 3 and TiVo HDs have two tuners.

He said "The disadvantage of these is their cable/QAM tuners can be erratic due to cable companies constantly screwing with the signal". So I thought he meant the analog tuner might also be erratic? BTW, does the digital tuner only handle the OTA digital signal? Or does it also handle the signal from a digital cable box? Or does the analog tuner handle the digital cable box signal? This is getting confusing.

My parents have their digital cable box hooked up to their VCR, so I guess the analog tuner handles that digital signal. But the digital cable box is connected to the VCR thru a composite cable, if that matters.

Its confusing because we're trying to cover all the bases for you, but the details of your parents specific setup was a little unclear and the current cable migration is all twisted up with the off-air ATSC conversion. The two specific points you need to separate out from this mess are:

1. The tuner issue applies only to those who currently do not use a cable decoder box AT ALL, or who have tried to be cute by dividing the cable wire feed into BOTH their recorder tuner and a decoder box (the recorder tunes the normal channels itself, while the premium channels go thru the decoder box and then to a separate line into the recorder. Again, confusing, I know: in essence, with this setup the recorder treats cable as if it was an antenna feed, it simplifies timeshifting because all (or most) of the channels are being tuned by the recorders own tuner and it can change channels unattended. THIS setup is going bye-bye, it uses analog frequencies which are being replaced by the QAM fiasco. QAM requires a new digital tuner in the same way ATSC requires a new digital tuner, however QAM is a free-for-all completely at the mercy of the cable companies, each of which is messing with it in their own way to force all users onto the decoder box system (or TiVO) and away from using their recorders own internal tuners.

2. There is a significant presence here on AVS of tech-savvy users who have the above setup. But its not typical: the average cable household does in fact use a decoder box, feeding their VCR or DVD recorder via composite line inputs, as you say your parents are set up. With this arrangement, the recorder can only see the output from the decoder box, and it can only record what the decoder box is showing. It has no control over the decoder box and can't change its channels automatically for unattended timeshifting. With this setup, you have to tediously remember to set the timers in the decoder box to change channels to various programs, and you ALSO have to set the timers in the VCR or DVD recorder. This one annoying task singlehandedly drives sales of TiVOs and integrated cable PVRs: people just instinctively want to set one timer, and they'll pay thru the nose for that convenience.

Its on this point that WE'RE all confused: what kind of recording do your parents actually do, if any? You say their current VCR is connected via composite: this almost certainly means they are doing the "set the timer on the cable box, then set the timer on the VCR" two-step, in which case they would be fine switching to a DVD recorder: it would work the same way. Then again, your parents might have one of the more advanced VCRs with the "VCR+" system and the little dongle which lets the VCR change channels on the cable box: this functionality cannot be duplicated with current DVD recorders (there are a few discontinued models, selling for $600 used: forget it.) If they have the fancier VCR, adapting them to a DVD recorder will be more difficult (they may not like the dual-timer nonsense). If thats the case, look into the TiVO or cable subscription PVRs.

The image quality from VHS is fine on the Magnavox out to its 2.5 hour speed, for longer movies you might find the 3 hr speed acceptable, beyond that DVD starts looking awful so you'd need to divide any 6-hour VHS tapes into 2 or 3 SP-speed DVDs for best copy quality (easy to do with the Magnavox hard drive).Does it support dual layer DVDs? That way I could fit a 4-6 hour VHS tape onto a single DVD.

As it turns out, the Phillips/Magnavox models with hard drive are the only ones that work reliably in timer mode, which means all the other digital recorders are near-useless ripoffs. For off-air use recording, the Phillips/Magnavox is the only practical choice. For use with a cable or satellite box, they work equally well and the Panasonic/Pioneer alternatives are even better.For my parents, reliable timer recording is the most important thing, so if the Philips/Magnavox is reliable for all timer modes (analog, ATSC, and QAM), then that sounds like the right unit for them.

QAM requires a new digital tuner in the same way ATSC requires a new digital tuner, however QAM is a free-for-all completely at the mercy of the cable companies, each of which is messing with it in their own way to force all users onto the decoder box system (or TiVO) and away from using their recorders own internal tuners.Since the cable companies are messing with QAM, do you think the QAM tuner in the Philips/Magnavox units will be unusable at some point, or will it continue to work for as long as cable providers are sending out QAM signals?

As far as how my parents are recording, I set up their system in a way that sounds like what you've described. The cable connection is split into 2 wires. One goes into the VCR so that it can record the analog signal. The other wire goes into the Comcast digital cable box. And then the digital cable box is connected to the VCR using a composite cable. (We noticed that the analog cable had a few channels that the digital cable didn't have, so that's why I set it up like that.) So if my parents want to record off the analog cable, they just tell the VCR what channel they want. But if my parents want to record off the digital cable, they tell the VCR to use the "VIDEO" channel, and I tell them that they MUST set the digital cable box to the channel that they want and leave it there until the end of the recording. I did not realize that the digital cable box had a timer as well.

Thank you (and Tulpa and others) very much for the informative and detailed replies, I appreciate it.

Since the cable companies are messing with QAM, do you think the QAM tuner in the Philips/Magnavox units will be unusable at some point, or will it continue to work for as long as cable providers are sending out QAM signals?

They'll always send out QAM signals, but the stumbling block will be if they encrypt them. To decrypt them requires a cable box or cableCARD (that DVD recorders can't use.) The unencrypted channels are called "in the clear" or "clear QAM."

Now what they encrypt is up to speculation, as you can never really tell until it happens, but generally they'll leave the networks alone (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, whatever local affiliates), and you might get Discovery HD and a few music channels or radio station channels. Just about anything else is fair game for encryption.

Another curveball they can throw is to shuffle the clear QAM channels around. This requires a rescan with the QAM tuner. Annoying, but a rescan pulls them back in, albeit with possibly different channel numbers.

What Tulpa said:): the Magnavox QAM tuner will be useful as long as your cable service sticks to the clearQAM standard. If they start encrypting, you will be stuck with the options discussed earlier. Even if they don't start encrypting, clear QAM is no panacea: its already driving members here to drink because some cablecos screw with the channel assignments so often that keeping up with the tuner rescans becomes a full-time job. It actually becomes more annoying than just taking the damned decoder box and setting two timers (since the cable company operates their decoder box on a network, it is instantly updated with all their channel shenanigans: you never notice or deal with it yourself).

Skip the dual-layer DVD idea. They are crazy expensive (6x the cost of a standard DVD), a lot of hardware just doesn't like them, and there is only ONE brand/type of DL blank thats reliable (Verbatim +R/DL). Given the rapid, unpredictable quality swings happening with media brands, having only one decent choice is very limiting. Its rare to have a movie go over three hours, if you really need to archive a long recording use the hard drive to break it into two SP-speed segments and burn two SL DVDs. If you have old SLP/6hour tapes with lots of stuff on them, again dub the whole tape to the hard drive at SP speed then break it up into 2-3 DVDs. Digital is not like VHS, there is no such thing as a home-recorded "long play" dvd thats watchable. The hard drive allows the storage capacity of a six-hour VHS to be recorded in the far better SP speed: use this advantage, its one of the things that makes DVD/HDD recorders such an advance over VCRs. In any case, I don't think the Magnavox can use DL discs anyway (the Pioneer and Panasonic can).

For my parents, reliable timer recording is the most important thing, so if the Philips/Magnavox is reliable for all timer modes (analog, ATSC, and QAM), then that sounds like the right unit for them.

Just to clarify, the timer reliability issue applies only to recorders with the newer ATSC/QAM digital tuners. Of recorders with such tuners, the Phillips/Magnavox models have proven so far to be the only ones that don't constantly flake out or do strange things like freeze up and require a reset. Other model DVD recorders WITHOUT digital atsc/qam tuners, that have either analog-only tuners or no tuners at all, are very reliable for timer recording (this would include the Pioneer and Panasonic dvd/hdd units mentioned earlier). Of course, such non-DTV models would need to be connected to a cable/satellite decoder box or one of the gov't-coupon ATSC converters to record TV after June 12th.

Personally, I would buy something with an eye to the future (which means don't depend too much on anything with an internal NTSC/clear-QAM-only tuner for those very tuner sections - or at least don't expect to be able to use them forever) - but that's just me.

@sldvd,

FWIW, I got my parents a DVD recorder (panasonic) and it's just too complicated for them to use, hence they never use it. They are getting up there in years, and setting timers on both the cable box and the recorder, or finding the right QAM channel is just too much. Even if they get that far, they can't find or manage their recordings or shuffle discs and make sure they have enough space. A few years ago, they probably could have handled it just fine. Maybe your folks are different, but that's been my experience. So for everyday recording, I hate to say it, but I'd go for a cable DVR or tivo that's easy to use. Even an HDD recorder like the philips/magnavox is too complicated for many of the reasons above. The upside for us is that cheap, barely used DVD recorders are plentiful on ebay mainly because average, non-technical people just can't figure them out.

For your VHS conversion, you've gotten plenty of great advice already. I personally have yet to see any better PQ than panasonic.

P.S. If you start using dual layer discs, won't you have to change your user name?

@sldvd,

FWIW, I got my parents a DVD recorder (panasonic) and it's just too complicated for them to use, hence they never use it. They are getting up there in years, and setting timers on both the cable box and the recorder, or finding the right QAM channel is just too much. Even if they get that far, they can't find or manage their recordings or shuffle discs and make sure they have enough space. A few years ago, they probably could have handled it just fine. Maybe your folks are different, but that's been my experience. So for everyday recording, I hate to say it, but I'd go for a cable DVR or tivo that's easy to use. Even an HDD recorder like the philips/magnavox is too complicated for many of the reasons above. The upside for us is that cheap, barely used DVD recorders are plentiful on ebay mainly because average, non-technical people just can't figure them out.I was thinking about getting the Magnavox for them, and at least have them try it and see if they could handle it. And if not I could just return it. But that finalization problem bothers me. I wouldn't be surprised if my parents want to try to convert their own VHS tapes into DVDs. Anyone know if there is a workaround for the finalization problem (besides deleting the timer programs)? Can you take the unfinalized disc and finalize it in a computer DVD burner?

For your VHS conversion, you've gotten plenty of great advice already. I personally have yet to see any better PQ than panasonic.Yes, definitely got some good advice here. I'll do a little more research and then get a Panasonic or Pioneer or Philips/Magnavox.

P.S. If you start using dual layer discs, won't you have to change your user name?Heh, the "sl" is my initials.

Anyone know if there is a workaround for the finalization problem (besides deleting the timer programs)? Can you take the unfinalized disc and finalize it in a computer DVD burner?

There isn't any practical workaround for the finalization glitch, unless you geek out and clear the timer whenever you want to burn a disc, then re-enter your timer programs. Fixing it on a computer is too tedious to bother with regularly (you'd have to use a salvage program like ISObuster to rip the unfinalized disc to your PC, put in a new DVD, copy it back, and use authoring software to create a menu and finalize). The glitch is just totally bizarre, and not typical of something this mfr would normally let slip out the door. The original Magnavox H2160 did not have this, it only appeared with the second batch Wal*Mart began selling this spring, after the machine had been unavailable for a few months. The mfr (Funai) has a very tight relationship with Wal*Mart, and the Magnavox has always been an exclusive online offering (not in the WM stores), so its quite likely the problem exists only in the last batch they sent to Wal*Mart. Reports indicate Target may soon be selling this model, which would probably be sourced from a third production run that ought to have the finalization bug removed. It may be worth waiting a few weeks and getting it from Target instead of Wal*Mart?

Reports indicate Target may soon be selling this model, which would probably be sourced from a third production run that ought to have the finalization bug removed. You mean maybe, don't you?

I haven't heard anything definite about that, and I've been following it pretty closely.

We're all guessing, Rammi, "probably" or "maybe" its just a wing and a prayer:rolleyes:. Funai seems to have made the Magnavox in smaller batches, since it was not being dumped by every Tom Dick & Harry the way the Phillips version was. The Mag has never been seen at retail, only via WM online, and after the first run sold out both Funai and Wal*Mart were mute on future plans as the months rolled by with no stock. Funai's own stated position was that Fall 2009 would see the end of them making any brand of DVD/HDD for the US market, so its extremely odd that they definitely ramped up to produce more for Wal*Mart a couple months ago. If they did a new run for Wal*Mart, and then got the Target order, there might be a separate run for Target, and if they have an ounce of intelligence they know from the Wal*Mart returns that the bugs in Rev 2 need to be fixed.

Even if they're staffed by complete dullards, Funai must also know that the only people in the USA who 1. are aware the damn Magnavox even exists, 2. care, and 3. might actually purchase one, are the very vocal and opinionated members of this forum. It would be suicide to produce another batch with the finalization bug: how many of these can they take back and use as landfill off the coast of China?

Tell you what, though - you can be the guinea pig - not me. ;)

(What's that old saying - "Better him than me"? :p)

Even if they're staffed by complete dullards, Funai must also know that the only people in the USA who 1. are aware the damn Magnavox even exists, 2. care, and 3. might actually purchase one, are the very vocal and opinionated members of this forum. It would be suicide to produce another batch with the finalization bug: how many of these can they take back and use as landfill off the coast of China?

In the event that the bugs are not fixed one would hope that these 2160 "A" models would be recalled for rebuilding/refurbishing back to the original 2160 specification/configuration for the original purchaser; or a refund given. One would also hope that retuned machines are retained for service parts or sold as-is with a description of the defect(s).

While I agree the finalization bug should be fixed, look at Panasonic with their EZ timer bugs. They actually date back to '05 with the ES-20 and ES-40v and currently exist with the EZ-x8 series. 5! years and they still can't get daily and weekly events to go off without a hitch, unbelievable:rolleyes:
Of course one could say the Magnavox finalization bug is worse than a timer bug that only seems to be activated by a specific set of circumstances, but then again the timer bug isn't the only EZ bug. My uncle ran into another bug in at least the EZ-48 where the unit would lock up tighter than a drum by just deleting sub channels, he tried several new units but all acted the same.
I'll believe any of these bugs will be fixed, when they're fixed;)