In spite of all the so-called education about the upcoming change to digital in USA on June 12, I find myself still not clear about exactly what to expect from my DVD Recorder (s). I currently have one DVD recorder (Panasonic) and am about to purchase an additional one (maybe not a Panasonic). I am not interested in any type of solution that requires a TIVO device and their monthly charges. There will be some situations in which I will want to record two different programs simultaneously, hence having at least 2 different DVD recorders.

Currently, I live on the east coast and have Comcast digital cable installed. I have a Panasonic DMR-ES45V with an ATSC tuner. If my TV (a 10 year old Toshiba) or DVD Recorder is connected directly to the cable without going through the digital cable interactive box, I get about 76 channels, numbered from 2 – 80 with a few missing in between.

If either one is connected through the digital cable interactive box (right now Comcast has given me two interactive cable boxes), I get about 25-30 additional channels which I pay an extra fee for. Generally, I just view those 25-30 channels are through the TV and not the recorder although that may change. I may want to switch that cable box output to go through the recorder so that I can record any of those 25-30 channels.

Since those additional channels would have to be fed from the cable box output in that case, I would not be able to program any channel changes through the recorder itself I would think. I could only record whatever channel was being fed to the recorder by the cable box in that situation. It looks to me as if an IR Blaster might be the solution to that problem but I'm not really sure.

My first question is: will any of this change after June 12 or will the change to digital be transparent to me? My guess is that it should be totally transparent to me (since I use cable TV for all inputs) but I am not sure. Specifically, I am wondering about the 76 channels that don't now require me to connect through the cable box and can be connected directly to the cable input. Will I still be able to receive those without going through the cable box after June 12? From the sounds of the Comcast plans for the June 12 change at <<http://www.pcworld.com/article/165545-3/how_the_unknown_digital_tv_transition_can_screw_you.html>>, it looks as if there won't be any real changes in comcast until 2010 or 2011 when their internal transition is complete.

My second question is about the DVD Recorder that I am about to purchase. It almost certainly will be a hard drive (hdd) record drive, if I can find them, either a Philips 3576, Magnavox 2160, Pioneer 460 or one of the Panasonic “EH” International models. My biggest concern is if I get the Pioneer 460 which I understand doesn't have an ATSC tuner. Again, as long as I am connected via cable, I am assuming that there shouldn't be any changes for that device (should I choose to get one) after June 12 and that I wouldn't need an additional tuner or converter for it as long as it is connected via Cable TV.

Finally, my last question doesn't really involve the June 12 changes but involves recording to one of the International Panasonic models (“EH”), which I would want to do frequently if I purchased one. My understanding is that they don't have an NTSC tuner (which I would have to purchase separately). It seems to me that if that is the case, it would be the same situation as with recording out of the cable box...that I wouldn't be able to program channel changes to the Panasonic recorder and it would be limited to recording whatever channel was being fed to it by the NTSC tuner. Again, I don't know if there is an IR Blaster available for that situation.

It looks to me as if the biggest changes for me aren't going to happen on June 12 but will happen later as Comcast migrates more and more channels to require connection to my DVD recorder (or TV) through the cable interactive box instead of directly through the CATV jack as they are now.

Ultimately, it looks as if I want to record two programs at the same time, I would need the two different recorders each connected to a different interactive cable box as well as an IR blaster with each.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Sure makes the TiVo HD sound good. :) Seriously, once you need a digital box for tuning in/decrypting signals, it might be easier to use a digital DVR to do the video capture, and manually initiate burn to DVD with the DVD-R connected to the DVR's output, on your own schedule.

I have a couple of recorders tied in with Zenith DTT901's. Last year I bought UHF antennas to feed the Zeniths because all the over-the-air (OTA) digital channels were on UHF, and at the time I didn't know about the eventual shift of some digitals channels back to VHF.

So, I am guessing I am going to lose some channels after June 12th, when the UHF switchover to VHF occurs, and will probably have to invest in new VHF/UHF antennas.

Sure makes the TiVo HD sound good. :) Seriously, once you need a digital box for tuning in/decrypting signals, it might be easier to use a digital DVR to do the video capture, and manually initiate burn to DVD with the DVD-R connected to the DVR's output, on your own schedule.

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying though. If I understand you correctly, using a digital box for tuning/decrypting signals with a digital DVR for the video capture would still present the same problems of programming the channels to be recorded. In other words, if I wanted to record channel "X" from 2-4 pm and channel "Y" from 4-6 pm, how would I do that unless I were physically present to manually switch the cable tuner box from one channel to the other at 4 pm?

Or are you saying I should use either TIVO's device and service or Comcast's own dual tuner recorder (which rents for a deposit plus about $16 - $17 a month and is not sold). I'm guessing that's what you mean. With the TIVO however, I am stuck with their additional monthly expense and the limitations of their service. If I go with Comcast's device, I still have the additional monthly expense and similar limitations of the service plus there are have been reports of significant problems with Comcast's device <<http://www.consumersearch.com/dvr-reviews/review>>.

Are you referring to a 3rd alternative to either the TIVO or Comcast devices that I am not aware of?

I'm guessing that's what you mean. With the TIVO however, I am stuck with their additional monthly expense and the limitations of their service.

You can buy a TiVo, pay a lifetime fee, and never pay another cent to TiVo. Not sure what limitations a TiVo would have compared to a DVD recorder, since a DVD recorder is also limited (much more severely, IMO, considering they can't work with a cableCARD or timeshift HD, not to mention lacking an interface to set record times for multiple shows unless you have a TVGOS model.)


Are you referring to a 3rd alternative to either the TIVO or Comcast devices that I am not aware of?

There's a Moxi DVR that is also one time fee.

Neither are as cheap as a DVD recorder alone, but they can do much more than a DVD recorder alone can. And they're easier than futzing with an IR blaster-less recorder and a non-DVR cable box.

A cable company DVR might be the cheapest way to go.

You could buy another DVDR, but the choices are slim. The Panasonic has a QAM tuner, but no hard drive. The Magnavox has a HDD, but has a black level problem which has been mentioned in this forum. I tried one & confirmed this. I looked into building/buying an HTPC, but they seem to have their share of problems too. Tivo gets high praise and I’m sure it deserves it. But it’s not inexpensive. And you still have to pay the cable company for their programming.

I already have a Comcast HD STB, which is programmable just like their DVR. IOW it can change channels at scheduled times. And it is connected to a DVDR which of course also has to be programmed to turn on & off at the same times. However Comcast’s DVR is only $7/month more. That would give me two tuners, HD capability and no initial cash outlay. Would it be nice as a Tivo, perhaps not. But it would not cost hundreds of dollars up front.

"What he said."

That's really it in a nutshell. If you want to go the difficult way, do expect that it will be difficult and perhaps, in some ways, prohibitively so, depending on your personal tolerance for having to execute time-sensitive manual care and feeding. With a DVR (whether from your cable company, or a TiVo HD or Moxi HD DVR), you can be sure of having the recordings, i.e., the machine does the time-sensitive stuff, and then the manual work on your part is relegated to your leisure.

...I already have a Comcast HD STB, which is programmable just like their DVR. IOW it can change channels at scheduled times. And it is connected to a DVDR which of course also has to be programmed to turn on & off at the same times...

Mike, what brand / model of cable box do you have? My SA 3250HD (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/ExplorerClubGuides/getting_started/752313.pdf) using Time Warner's Navigator software works nothing like their equivalent DVR box. All I get is one timer which will turn the box on to a channel of your choice at a specified time. That puts me in the same boat as what Scott describes:

...In other words, if I wanted to record channel "X" from 2-4 pm and channel "Y" from 4-6 pm, how would I do that unless I were physically present to manually switch the cable tuner box from one channel to the other at 4 pm?...

5 years ago I had an Adelphia STB which allowed 8 "VCR timers" as they were called. It seems the cable companies have decided to remove these functions in an effort to force everyone to rent their DVR's. Speaking of which, I read tons of complaints about the TWC DVR that is available in my area (doesn't record when it is supposed to, records at the wrong time / wrong channel at random intervals, etc). At least I can always count on my Magnavox 2160 to record at the right time!

A cable company DVR might be the cheapest way to go.

You could buy another DVDR, but the choices are slim. The Panasonic has a QAM tuner, but no hard drive. The Magnavox has a HDD, but has a black level problem which has been mentioned in this forum. I tried one & confirmed this. I looked into building/buying an HTPC, but they seem to have their share of problems too. Tivo gets high praise and I’m sure it deserves it. But it’s not inexpensive. And you still have to pay the cable company for their programming.

I already have a Comcast HD STB, which is programmable just like their DVR. IOW it can change channels at scheduled times. And it is connected to a DVDR which of course also has to be programmed to turn on & off at the same times. However Comcast’s DVR is only $7/month more. That would give me two tuners, HD capability and no initial cash outlay. Would it be nice as a Tivo, perhaps not. But it would not cost hundreds of dollars up front.

I use a standard-def Comcast STB, DCT 2000, included in the price of cable service, with multiple pre-programmed timers for an outboard recorder. Comcast's high-def STB, such as DCT6400, has similiar capabilities.

Mike, what brand / model of cable box do you have? My SA 3250HD (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/ExplorerClubGuides/getting_started/752313.pdf) using Time Warner's Navigator software works nothing like their equivalent DVR box. All I get is one timer which will turn the box on to a channel of your choice at a specified time. That puts me in the same boat as what Scott describes:



5 years ago I had an Adelphia STB which allowed 8 "VCR timers" as they were called. It seems the cable companies have decided to remove these functions in an effort to force everyone to rent their DVR's. Speaking of which, I read tons of complaints about the TWC DVR that is available in my area (doesn't record when it is supposed to, records at the wrong time / wrong channel at random intervals, etc). At least I can always count on my Magnavox 2160 to record at the right time!


I have a Comcast Motorola DCH3200 HD STB. When you go into the Menu to program a selection it is actually called Recording. But of course the STB is not doing the recording. You click on a program in the EPG and can even adjust the start & end times by several minutes. The STB is connected via an S-Video connection to a DVDR which also has to be programmed to turn on & off. It is a two-step process but does work. I don't know what happens if I want to go beyond the two weeks listed in the EPG, but will have to check it out.

The big drawback is recording using S-Video because the 16:9 HD programs are sent out of the STB in letterbox format with black borders on all 4 sides. So you end up using a lot of recording pixels for the black bars. Using the TV's Zoom feature does fill out the screen and looks OK on my 42" HDTV but may not on a larger screen.

Thanks for the info, Mike. Everything you described is the same for me, except for the EPG.

Mine can store up to eight "Reminder Timers" (pops up a prompt to warn you that a show is about to start in 1 minute). That's it. Those will not turn the box on/off and they will not change the channel automatically. It also does not have the ability to adjust the start and end times which is how the DVR boxes work from what I hear.

To record a single show, I have to go into a separate menu within my system and manually enter all info (Channel Number, Start Time, End Time). Before I do that, I have to locate what show I want in the EPG, then exit out of that and go into this other screen. Once I've got that set, I have to set my DVD recorder to the same times and tell it to use "L1" (S-Video input). I also put up with the forced black bars on HD channels because I won't pay $160 for svideo.com's Apple TV Converter.

Wow. To think...all this because cable companies won't just let us have a basic service with QAM channels other than our locals.

In case anyone's interested, I believe TiVo right now has some kind of "Father's Day" deal going on - the TiVo HD and lifetime service for only $500.00. At least that's what's been reported in the TiVo HD thread here. Sure as heck can't beat that (I just paid $550.00 for the combo a month ago, and I thought I was getting a good deal then. Anyway, the moral of the story is that you do get what you pay for).

5 years ago I had an Adelphia STB which allowed 8 "VCR timers" as they were called. It seems the cable companies have decided to remove these functions in an effort to force everyone to rent their DVR's.U-Verse doesn't offer that at all on their non-DVR tuners. That's one of the things that prevents me from going with them.

My current Dish tuner has it, though. Can even adjust the times if you want, and it starts and stops my Panny EH55 and EH75 recorders on cue. The recordings even get titled (that feature is set up through the TVGOS - you just use the guide on the tuner to set recordings through, rather than the TV Guide on the recorder, which doesn't fill in with info).

Me, I'm going to take my chances with my Panny and my Magnavox 2160, both of which have tuners in them...I have a STB for cable downstairs, and cable from the wall directly into the TV upstairs. According to my local cable company, as long as I've got cable service, "nothing will change" (at least for a few years). We shall see after Friday, though....

I just know I cannot afford a DVR from the cable company (hence why I got the 2160 with the HDD)...nor do I want to pay the monthly TiVo fee. And I sure can't afford the TiVo with lifetime service right now, or that Moxi DVR. Guess I'm limited in my choices, so I'll have to deal with what I've got.

DGK

Thanks for the info, Mike. Everything you described is the same for me, except for the EPG.

Mine can store up to eight "Reminder Timers" (pops up a prompt to warn you that a show is about to start in 1 minute). That's it. Those will not turn the box on/off and they will not change the channel automatically. It also does not have the ability to adjust the start and end times which is how the DVR boxes work from what I hear.

To record a single show, I have to go into a separate menu within my system and manually enter all info (Channel Number, Start Time, End Time). Before I do that, I have to locate what show I want in the EPG, then exit out of that and go into this other screen. Once I've got that set, I have to set my DVD recorder to the same times and tell it to use "L1" (S-Video input). I also put up with the forced black bars on HD channels because I won't pay $160 for svideo.com's Apple TV Converter.

Wow. To think...all this because cable companies won't just let us have a basic service with QAM channels other than our locals.


Have you looked at the most recent postings in the “Cheaper Component to S-Video Converter” thread? One member tried the $69 Lenkeng and said it looked very good with his Pioneer DVDR. But unfortunately not with his DirecTV Receiver which is what he wanted it for. When I previously called svideo.com the person I spoke with said he could not tell a difference between the $69 converter and the $169 one. Of course that’s an opinion from the company, biased or not. But it might be worth trying one of these.

Currently my STB has to rescale the image to a letterboxed format in order to send it out from the S-Video connection, & then the TV has to Zoom in to fill the screen up. So there’s two conversions happening. I’d like to see a technical review of the Lenkeng converter to see how it affects an image regarding noise or artifacts.

In case anyone's interested, I believe TiVo right now has some kind of "Father's Day" deal going on - the TiVo HD and lifetime service for only $500.00. At least that's what's been reported in the TiVo HD thread here. Sure as heck can't beat that (I just paid $550.00 for the combo a month ago, and I thought I was getting a good deal then. Anyway, the moral of the story is that you do get what you pay for).


I've read that you have Dish, but do you also have cable for use with your Tivo?

No - just OTA with the TiVo right now.

I basically have the same thing that I'd have with Digital Starter cable - the local HD's, and the rest in digital SD - except that it's only costing me $40.00 a month (and that's to 2 TV's).

I use a standard-def Comcast STB, DCT 2000, included in the price of cable service, with multiple pre-programmed timers for an outboard recorder. Comcast's high-def STB, such as DCT6400, has similiar capabilities.

I have a question about this response. I have a Comcast STB DCT 2224 (which I understand is virtually identical to the DCT 2000) but have found no way (yet) to pre-program it with timers or channel changes. Comcast just brought the box, activated it and handed it over to me with NO INFORMATION whatsoever on how to use it. That's pretty typical of them in this area (Washington, DC area)... they are very weak on providing any kind of information to their customers.

In any case, I found the user manual online for the DCT 2000 but couldn't find a way to program the box for time or channel changes described in the manual either. I couldn't find a way on the menus to do this either. Can you point me to a way to do that?

I'm beginning to think that the timer/pre-programmable capability is a function of the level of Comcast service I currently get (which is a mid-tier level of service, neither their highest level nor their lowest level) and not a function of the STB...at least in this area. Thanks.

Generally the most basic way set top boxes with a guide will do it is to go to the program in the guide, move the cursor onto it from the remote, and just press "enter". Usually some kind of marker or icon will be set then on that time block to highlight it (on my Dish tuner, it's a little round icon of a clock).

I'm not too familiar with digital cable boxes, though (never actually had digital cable with a box myself). Might have to go through the menu or something.

Yeah, cable boxes and sat boxes aren't too much different in that respect. At least my TWC box and my friend's D* box seemed pretty similar in terms of programming.

If the Motorolas are anything like the Scientific Atlantas that I use or the D* box, you have a button on the remote to bring up the guide.