I have a Klipsch Reference RF-63 set up and RT-12d sub. The low end is weak for HT and there is not enought slam. My room is 25x30x10 and opens to an adjoining room. I think I need two subs. I don't want to get another RT-12d.

If I want low end extension and good slam, it seems that the SVS should fulfill my needs. It would cost half as much BUT I must have drunk the Kool-aid because something keeps telling me I'd be missing out if I don't get the JL's.

I only want to upgrade once since my last sub is only one year old.

Which is a better choice? A better question is , what would I miss if I got one sub over the other since in reality both are great subs?

I own dual SVS Ultras, and I have auditioned dual JL F113s. They are both awesome subs. You will be happy with either setup.

Here are some of my comments...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16486656&highlight=#post16486656

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16539612&highlight=#post16539612

IMO, I'd go with the Ultras and save a lot of cash. Or better yet, buy 4 Ultras for the price of 2 F113s.

If clean output, low distortion and bass extension are a major priority, then I think it's an easy winner : Dual PB13's.

However....

Subjectively speaking, the Fathoms might sound cleaner, tighter or crisper and also take up less real estate within your room, so if space is a priority, then the Fathoms will be an easy choice. Output-wise and extension-wise, dual Fathoms would be most likely, amazing in all respects. But in comparison to the PB13-Ultra, there is doubt; a PB13-Ultra can outgun the Fathom in just about every area that matters (output, extension and low distortion).

It can also be configured for sealed use which is a further advantage. So you have the key advantage of versatility. You set up the SVS in a number of ways according to your preferences and listening levels. It's a trade-off; you'll have more placement options with the dual Fathoms but you'll also have more versatility with the SVS subwoofers. Tough to say depending on your room, space and/or listening preferences.

I suppose looks is a bit of a wash. I think the Fathom looks more aesthetically pleasing than the Ultra's. Some might prefer the F113's looks over the hulking presence of the PB13-Ultra but then some might not. Build quality between both subwoofers are very high, although I would say that the Fathom has a more rock solid cabinet and is built to even higher standards.

But you do get what you paid for. A beautiful subwoofer, well finished, one of the most competently designed sealed subwoofers on the market, in my opinion and can hang with some of the big dogs in terms of clean output.

Your decision will ultimately come down to space, listening preferences and, of course, priorities but both options are really awesome. If it were me, I would choose dual PB13-Ultra's and save the cash that you would have spent on the Fathoms and seriously think about buying some acoustic treatment, bass traps or a more flexible, powerful EQ (like the SVS AS-EQ1).

Regards,

Sorry for going off-topic, but what are you powering your Klipsch RF-63 setup with and what are your impressions of the sound of your RF-63s? Did you compare the RF-63 to other speakers? What made you choose the RF-63?

I'd also consider Mark Seaton's Submersive -- an improvement in all respects that neither the Fathom or the SVS-13 can touch.

Duals would be even better. :D ....and much cheaper than the Fathoms.

Dual Submersives would be a great choice.... Not really sure you could go wrong with any of the 3 honestly.... My first choice would be the submersives though.

According to Ilkka (who tested subwoofers for several years), and now works for Genelec (one of the best sub companies in the world), the F113 is a fantastic subwoofer FOR ITS SIZE. Ilkka only tested one commercial subwoofer that could outdo the F113 and it was exactly the SVS PB-13 Ultra.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113-new.html

Scroll down to read all the comments.

If size is not a consideration dual PB-13 Ultras has the edge. If space is at a premium dual F113s is a very close second.

Just realize that some people prefer sealed subs, others are totally happy with their ported PB-13s. Which, by the way can be used in sealed mode if needed.

Dual PB-13s offer more placement flexibility.

If I was ordering dual PB-13's I would ask about a discount on the EQ-1 if you bought the two subs and the EQ at the same time.

Kain,

I have an Integra DHC 9.9. The amps are Emotiva XPA2 for the fronts; XPA5 for the center and surrounds.

I listened to Focals, Paradigms and Def Techs. The Klipsch sounded best for HT. The are clear and loud. The RF83's have 8" woofers and had less midrange than the RF63's. I also use them foe Music.

Do the ports on the SVS chuff? Is there much noise from the airports?

How does the JL handle Jericho scene in Ironman or Skidoosh in Kung fu panda?

Do the ports on the SVS chuff? Is there much noise from the airports?

The ports only chuff when you put it in 10Hz, which is a mode nobody recommends to use (15Hz seems like the sweet spot).

Kain,

I have an Integra DHC 9.9. The amps are Emotiva XPA2 for the fronts; XPA5 for the center and surrounds.

I listened to Focals, Paradigms and Def Techs. The Klipsch sounded best for HT. The are clear and loud. The RF83's have 8" woofers and had less midrange than the RF63's. I also use them foe Music.

Do the ports on the SVS chuff? Is there much noise from the airports?

How does the JL handle Jericho scene in Ironman or Skidoosh in Kung fu panda?

Questions about specific movies doesn't make as much sense as sine wave testing. Sine waves are as difficult a test as you can come up with.

I don't mean to be repititious but Ilkka already tested both subs and said that the F113 was bested by only one commercial subwoofer, and it was the PB-13 Ultra.

Maybe if you carefully study this chart, you will see how much more output the PB-13 has, especially at the lowest frequencies. Use the 15 Hz tune to compare with the F113.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/5748-cea-2010-standard-compilation-new-information.html

With duals or quad ultras the 10 hz tune may be ok. It chuffs when its trying to push too much air through, usually on more demanding scenes. With multiples less is asked of the subs and it may bring the chuffing down to a tolerable level.

Based on your large, open room and your concern for strong HT performance, the dual PB13 would be a great choice.

With duals or quad ultras the 10 hz tune may be ok. It chuffs when its trying to push too much air through, usually on more demanding scenes. With multiples less is asked of the subs and it may bring the chuffing down to a tolerable level.

It is still not recommended to run the PB13 in 10Hz mode because it offers no advantage compared to 15Hz mode while sacrificing a lot of output and having the possibility of port chuffing.

Have you considered Subs from Elemental Designs and Epik? On that budget I would consider the A7 900, or a bunch of Epik Dragons. You should also look into the Seaton Terraforms, or at the very least, submersives. I would also consider a HSU ULS quad drive. Whatever you settle on, I am sure it will be amazing.

According to Ilkka (who tested subwoofers for several years), and now works for Genelec (one of the best sub companies in the world), the F113 is a fantastic subwoofer FOR ITS SIZE. Ilkka only tested one commercial subwoofer that could outdo the F113 and it was exactly the SVS PB-13 Ultra.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113-new.html

Scroll down to read all the comments.

If size is not a consideration dual PB-13 Ultras has the edge. If space is at a premium dual F113s is a very close second.

Just realize that some people prefer sealed subs, others are totally happy with their ported PB-13s. Which, by the way can be used in sealed mode if needed.

Dual PB-13s offer more placement flexibility.

If I was ordering dual PB-13's I would ask about a discount on the EQ-1 if you bought the two subs and the EQ at the same time.

It's also one of the highest -- if not the highest -- costing subs for the money vs. output ratio.

Is it a great sub for its size? Yes. It is a nice looking sub? Yes. Are there subs out there that easily beat it costing much less, especially since the GP tests in 2007?

Yes.

It's also one of the highest -- if not the highest -- costing subs for the money vs. output ratio.

Is it a great sub for its size? Yes. It is a nice looking sub? Yes. Are there subs out there that easily beat it costing much less, especially since the GP tests in 2007?

Yes.

Which subs are easily beating the PB13 for a much lower cost?

-Alex-

Which subs are easily beating the PB13 for a much lower cost?

-Alex-

I think he's referring to the Fathom here, which is twice the cost of a single Ultra.

Here's what Illka said:

"Okay, so what do I think of the f113. I think it's an amazing subwoofer. It has the best performance/liter ratio I have ever seen when it comes to commercial subwoofers. It has very good user settings and a lot of very uselful and most importantly working features like the E.L.F and the wonderful crossover, though I wish that the A.R.O would have more bands, but it's better than nothing, and of course one can always add an SMS-1 or BFD to go with it. The build quality and the cabinet are the very best I've ever seen. It is truly a high end subwoofer. Of course it has its limitations due to laws of physics but still the performance is better than with most much larger and more expensive subwoofers. Other than maybe the price, it really doesn't have many weak spots. Bravo, JL Audio!"

That does not equate to "fantastic sub for the size." He said it's an amazing subwoofer and that it's performance is better than with most larger and more expensive subwoofers.

True, there are some newer larger mini fridge sized subwoofers that offer higher output for the dollar. But you can also get the Fathoms for substantially less than retail. It only takes a few minutes of searching to find brand new fathoms for ~$2,500.

I think he's referring to the Fathom here, which is twice the cost of a single Ultra.

That makes sense.

I should read more closely next time.

-Alex-

I think he's referring to the Fathom here, which is twice the cost of a single Ultra.

When talking full retail, yes.

Unlike the Ultra, which is already a value, and there is no room for negotiating price, the JL has quite a bit of room for haggling. I've heard of many getting the 113 for less than what some try and sell used versions on Audiogon for.

Me? I have an F112, that cost me basically the same as the PB13. I prefer sealed designs, and the size was of the PB13 is an issue for me (although the finishes are very nice).

Can someone PM the street pricing of JL F113? If the pricing is close, maybe the JL is the way to go. I am nervous about port chuffing . I also hate buying without listening to it first. I will be able to audition the JL but not the SVS.

I am nervous about port chuffing . I also hate buying without listening to it first. I will be able to audition the JL but not the SVS.
I hear yah... I was almost ready to pull the trigger on a SVS PB12-NSD a few weeks ago, but ultimately I ended up backing out for that very reason, and it was too freakin' huge for my space. I ended up swinging a sweet deal on a Sub 12 and haven't looked back. My application is 100% HT, and this is my first foray into the sealed sub world. I'm REALLY loving the controlled sound this sealed enclosure has given me. Good luck...