Location: 34 miles NE of Empire State Building
Altitude: 45ft up(fourth floor apartment, steel-frame, cinderblock construction)

Setup:

TV: Standard NTSC analog Toshiba 24" flat CRT.
Digital STB: Channel Master 7000
Antennas: Clearstream C-2, Radioshack 40" rabbit ears, combined with standard coax splitter.

Channels I receive - Network, .x=subcarriers/Signal Strength:

CBS - 2.1/100%

NBC - 4.1, 4.2, 4.4/100%

Fox - 5.1, 5.2/100%

My9 - 9.1/fluctuates 90-100%

PBS - 13.1, 13.2, 13.3/fluctuates WILDLY 40-80%

WLIW - 21.1, 21.2, 21.3/100%

WNYE - 25.1, 25.2, 25.3/100%

ionTV - 31.1, 31.2, 31.3, 31.4/90-100%

Spanish: (WXTV, NJU, etc) 41.x, 47.x, 67.x, 68.x, all rock solid 100%

WLNY - 55.1/70-90%

Channels I would also like to pick up: 7.x(ABC), 11.x(CW-11)(both on H-VHF)
Channels I receive all too well, but could care less about: No explanation nec. ;)

The challenge: (see attached photo) Basically the way I'm facing, is pretty much towards all of Manhattan, if not the ESB specifically. I'm estimating the hill(itself, not including any trees, etc) at anywhere from 60 - 70 feet total height, or about 30 feet taller than our location.

Can I safely assume that NO type of antenna nor any amount of amplification will help me get those two additional channels, given what is in that photo??

Is there any possibility that the U-VHF channels(7 and 11) are too strong and that they are overloading your digital tuner and therfor you get nothing?
Before the cutover could you receive analog channels 7 and 11?

Is there any possibility that the U-VHF channels(7 and 11) are too strong and that they are overloading your digital tuner and therfor you get nothing?

Well here are my TVFool results for my specific ZIP code, and 7 seems to be high on that list. It's ironic that I wouldn't be able to get the strongest signals around a freakin' hill - guess I need to read up on signal propagation in general. :p ABC-7 seems stronger than a lot of the channels I do get in.

Analog - 7 and 11 were grainy but watchable.

Even before seeing the TVFool diagram I was honestly a little surprised you weren't already getting those channels if your VHF antenna is working properly.

Why do you have 2 antennas combined? The combiner may be causing problems so I'd take one antenna at a time and see what you get. The C-2 seems to be Hi-VHF, UHFand I would think you should get.

Is the RS rabbit ears UHF only, VHF, or a combination antenna. Trying to combine antennas often causes problems and I'm not sure a regular coax splitter would work even with a UHF only and VHF only antenna.

Even before seeing the TVFool diagram I was honestly a little surprised you weren't already getting those channels if your VHF antenna is working properly.

Why do you have 2 antennas combined? The combiner may be causing problems so I'd take one antenna at a time and see what you get. The C-2 seems to be Hi-VHF, UHFand I would think you should get.

Is the RS rabbit ears UHF only, VHF, or a combination antenna. Trying to combine antennas often causes problems and I'm not sure a regular coax splitter would work even with a UHF only and VHF only antenna.

The C-2 has marginal VHF performance IMO. It does not get in 7 or 11, and marginally pulls in 13(also High-VHF around here) - wildly fluctuating signal strength 40 - 80%. It does not get in 7 or 11 with or without help from the rabbit-ears.

The rabbit-ear is VHF only - no loop. The splitter combining them is just that, a $1.99 "gold coated" piece-of-turd SPLITTER from the local Walgreens. Would a proper Diplexer or http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ help?

Again, refer to my original photo if you haven't already - see that thing with houses & trees on it in the distance? It ain't helping matters, nor is this metal/masonry box we live on top of.....

Again it is important to point out that a digital tuner unlike an analog tuner will not receive a signal that is too strong or is too weak.

I was just going by the specs and description of the C-2 whether it picked up Hi VHF. With 7-11-13, I would still think it wouldn't be that difficult to pickup those channels even over a hill unless it's a iron ore containing sheer cliff. The picture I see just doesn't look that bad for Long wave VHF channels.

TV Fool is pretty good about correcting for routine terrain if you entered a specific address and not a plain zip code. I would think even on the wrong side of the relatively small hill you should get a very good signal. The metal roof might be more of a problem.

Are you rabbit ears inside of outside on the balcony of have you tried them outside? Do you know if anybody else in the area is picking up 7/11 with either an indoor or outdoor antenna?

The rabbit-ear is VHF only - no loop. The splitter combining them is just that, a $1.99 "gold coated" piece-of-turd SPLITTER from the local Walgreens. Would a proper Diplexer or http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ help?

Test it separately without the C2 or the splitter. It that works, get a proper diplexer to combine the two antennas. The splitter is not made for what you are doing and will cause significant problems. Diplexers are available from Radio Shack for around 15 bucks.

Masonry exterior and metal roofing are about as wicked as it comes to get signal into (metal siding is worse). You have to get the antenna outside in order to get anything predictable or reliable.

The C2 is generally good for about 20-25 miles on high VHF with a whole lot depending on the strength of the transmitted signal. It is also going to be very sensitive to the placement of the coax since it relies on feed-line radiation as opposed to element resonance for the high-VHF pickup. I found that running the feedline horizontally for 2-3 feet made a tremendous difference in measured signal strength.

Hills do NOT have to be made of iron ore to block signal. Just plain old rock does it by itself. So does cinder block with a steel frame.

A TVfool forecast in the yellow is never at risk for tuner overload unless excessively amplified.

A wildly fluctuating meter reading is usually due to severe multi-path or other interference rather than signal strength problems. An FM trap might be helpful for you. Try turning off interference generators - computers, calculators, unused electronics, etc.

Test it separately without the C2 or the splitter. It that works, get a proper diplexer to combine the two antennas. The splitter is not made for what you are doing and will cause significant problems. Diplexers are available from Radio Shack for around 15 bucks.

Masonry exterior and metal roofing are about as wicked as it comes to get signal into (metal siding is worse). You have to get the antenna outside in order to get anything predictable or reliable.

The C2 is generally good for about 20-25 miles on high VHF with a whole lot depending on the strength of the transmitted signal. It is also going to be very sensitive to the placement of the coax since it relies on feed-line radiation as opposed to element resonance for the high-VHF pickup. I found that running the feedline horizontally for 2-3 feet made a tremendous difference in measured signal strength.

Hills do NOT have to be made of iron ore to block signal. Just plain old rock does it by itself. So does cinder block with a steel frame.

A TVfool forecast in the yellow is never at risk for tuner overload unless excessively amplified.

A wildly fluctuating meter reading is usually due to severe multi-path or other interference rather than signal strength problems. An FM trap might be helpful for you. Try turning off interference generators - computers, calculators, unused electronics, etc.


In that photo the C-2 and the rabbit ears would be mounted on top of that rail to the far left of frame, both aiming pretty much as I aimed the camera when taking the picture. The rabbit ears is not right in front of the C-2, mind you - it's about 3 feet away.

Radio shack does sell http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062059, which I tried but the problem is the UHF input is the 300ohm twin-lead on it and the VHF is the 75ohm coax - OPPOSITE of what I have - the C-2 is coax-out and the rabbit-ears is twin-lead-out. So I had no choice but to hook the C-2 up where it said "VHF" and the rabbit ears where it said "UHF". Results: I went from getting 27 channels to getting 20(remember that's 9 primaries with 2-3 subcarriers a piece). When I put the regular turd splitter back on, that number jumped back up 29(still no 7 or 11)!.

So I've optimized my positioning and my aim, but still, no 7 or 11. :mad: Stations "we all" grew up with if we lived in SW CT, Westchester, or Long Island.

I'm willing to give http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ a shot since it's loss is rated at only 1/2 dB. The splitter I have on there now probably eats up a good 5 or more deciBels as it is!

As for: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103923&tab=features I frown upon anything whose description contains the word SPLITTER, because instantly that tells me that all it does is distributes(with subsequent transfer loss) a signal to more than one device - I.E. two TVS or to a TV and to a recording device.

The Pico Macom thing Solid Signal sells is called a SEPARATOR/COMBINER because it takes the two antenna's signals and presents them to the digital tuner in a way as to be useful.

I'll sprint for it because I've used Solid Signal before and besides, what can ya lose for under $10 including shipping?

But unless building management allows me to rig up a 30'+ pole outside my balcony to put the C-2 on top of, I don't think ANYTHING will help that hill. And the wife doesn't want a 6' scale model of a stealth bomber frame hanging from the balcony ceiling there either: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD8200U&xzoom=Large#xview ;)

Remember folks, it's AWWLL ABOWT DA HILLLLL! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I am still concerned that the rabbit ears at 40" are giving you too strong a signal for the U VHF channels and it is overloading your digital tuner causing you not to receive channels 7 and 11. Have your tried not using the rabbit ears?

I am still concerned that the rabbit ears at 40" are giving you too strong a signal for the U VHF channels and it is overloading your digital tuner causing you not to receive channels 7 and 11. Have your tried not using the rabbit ears?

Read post #5(my reply to Prospect60).

I have tried BOTH by themselves and NEITHER gets 7 or 11. Again, I think everyone on here needs to meditate while looking at the photo of my balcony. Even if channels 7 and 11 had the strongest transmitters ever built, that HILL would swallow them up like Pac Man eats dots.

Let me clue you in on something I found out: After 9/11, when the One-WTC tx went down, ABC(among others) moved ALL of their broadcast operations OUT of NYC(AM/FM radio & TV). Those xmitters are now in New Jersey, same signal strength, but probably at only half the height of their old lower Manhattan location. I know this because 77WABC is a b%*tch to tune in here in Fairfield County(not good if you're an Imus fan!), unless you're by the Long Island Sound. WPLJ is a little dicey too, for an FMer, and so it goes for their TV.

Channel 11? I don't know. They may still be on the ESB or elsewhere in Manhattan, but may not be as powerful as ABC even though they are closer to CT, relatively speaking.

ProjectSHO basically hit it out of the park.

You should first try a UVSJ combiner, and get outside of that masonry walled building on your balcony there with both antennas.

If that doesnt work you will have to increase the VHF Hi section of your antenna. Fluctuation is a sign of multipathing, so something more directional.

You can build a VHF yagi like Hollands has posted.

or you can add an RCA ANT751/EZ HD for its VHF section continuing to use the C2 which is much better on UHF using the UVSJ to combine. Or you could try the new Antennas Direct compact VHF Loop antenna...the C5 agina combining it using the UVSJ.

Bottom line, you should be able to get those VHF Hi stations if you work at it a little.

Seeing your recent post, about the Rabbit Ears only not bringing in the stations. Is this out on the balcony?

FWIW, that hill isnt ****, no problems on UHF is indicative of that. The masonry work is MUCH MORE likely to be cramping your signal....but not out on the balcony.

You can ditch the C2 altogether and just use the RCA ANT751/EZ HD out on the balcony with maybe a Motorola BDA S1 or S2 amplifier.

Seeing your recent post, about the Rabbit Ears only not bringing in the stations. Is this out on the balcony?

FWIW, that hill isnt ****, the masonry work is MUCH MORE likely to be cramping your signal.

Read post#9, my reply to ProjectSHO89 - specifically the first sentence. EVERYTHING is on that wide rail in that photo. Only an absolute IDIOT with severe brain damage would rig all that up inside the apartment.

Like I said, everything is OPTIMIZED as far as aim, being outdoors is concerned. The missing piece may be the 3 or 4 dB of gain that using a UVSJ combiner (instead of my turd splitter from the pharmacy lightbulb aisle :D :D ) might restore. Oh, and did I mention the HILL? ;)

You can ditch the C2 altogether and just use the RCA ANT751/EZ HD out on the balcony with maybe a Motorola BDA S1 or S2 amplifier.

I have experience with signal amplifiers - not for TV but for FM.
Unless I live MINIMUM 50 miles away from anything, I don't. . . .touch. . . .signal amplifiers.



. . .Period. . .

I will however research the RCA antenna you posted.

I researched the RCA ANT751/EZHD(same product different outlets)
and check out this listing on tiger direct:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4545184

Click the product information tab and read that description(It's below for anyone who's too lazy to click) ;)

RCA ANT751 1080 HDTV Outdoor Antenna
The RCA ANT751 offers Film Mode option that when turned on, the intelligent signal processing of the TruScan Digital Reality feature recognizes incoming video signals and progressively converts them to achieve optimum digital picture performance. The RCA ANT751 also recognizes when original film sources have been modified and can automatically convert the analog frame rate back to its original format to bring out the detail—a process commonly referred to as reverse 3:2 pulldown.

Are they describing an antenna there or a TV?? WTF? I would LOVE to see an antenna that can do all THAT! LOLOLOL!!

But seriously, http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/ez_hd_tv_Antenna.html seems to offer what looks like the same item, and the range looks promising. No information about what VHF it gets, etc, and it "still" uses 300ohm-twinlead to 75ohm coax conversion. That's at least a few dB of loss right then and there.

That RIDICULOUS description of the 751/EZHD seems to be cookie-cuttered everywhere: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANT751

Someone needs to be fired for this! And on solid signal - whom I respect?

Come on!! :eek:

The RCA isnt nearly as good on UHF as the C2, however its much much better on VHF Hi....its a better VHF Hi antenna than UHF antenna. It will give you some directivity on VHF Hi and much better gain that Rabbit Ears.

However, you might could use an amp boost, but its small enough to be balcony material....so that is your poison....whether or not you like amplifiers, since you cant go big on the antenna.

The RCA isnt nearly as good on UHF as the C2, however its much much better on VHF Hi....its a better VHF Hi antenna than UHF antenna. It will give you some directivity on VHF Hi and much better gain that Rabbit Ears.

However, you might could use an amp boost, but its small enough to be balcony material....so that is your poison....whether or not you like amplifiers, since you cant go big on the antenna.

I wish I could see the specs regarding the first part of your reply - googling "RCA Ant751" or "EZHD" the most I get are dimensions and of course the price. dennys gives the range(70 miles), but no gain figures, VHF/UHF, side or rear rejection, nothing. Even the write up on solid signal just describes how it converts videos to 2:3 movie mode(!) ? ? ?

Your second half: I *could* go big on the antenna - but it would just look ridiculous there, hanging from the balcony ceiling as it would have to. And what would I hang it with, twine?? :D Some of those suckers are 100" or more overall length and a good 40" wide.

Folks, I guess the lessons learned here are, don't live behind a hill - it's murder on VHF(especially in the cold, harsh realm of DTV!).

Also, there's no such thing as a "VHF/UHF" jack-of-all-trades antenna, unless it's the size of a F-16 and is mounted 8 feet above a chimney on a house.

"VHF/UHF" should be banned from all antenna literature! 90% of all antennas are good at one or another, not both. Those that claim to be probably suck across the board and deserve to be melted down for scrap metal.

I'll just deal with the clearstream C-2 and the rabbit-ears and look into the UVSJ combiner for now, until we move to a higher or better location.

Referring back to my original post: Channels 2,4,5,9,21, and 31(and all their child subcarriers) as well as the Spanish ones all rate 95% or higher on the CM box signal meter, while channel 55 averages 70% and 13 averages 50%. So in retrospect, I'm not doing all that bad. I'll check out the UVSJ combiner on solid signal and see where that gets me in a week or so.

Thanks for all your tips & suggestions.

PDF Specs for the Motorola amplifier. (http://www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Consumers/Products/Home%20Networking/Broadband%20Drop%20Amplifier%20-%20Signal%20Booster/_Documents/Static%20Files/BDA%20-%20User%20Guide.pdf)

The Winegard 7000R (http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem~d~Winegard-HD7000R-VHFUHFFM-DTV-TV-Antenna-(HD7000R)~p~HD-7000R.htm) gives you pretty close approximation, especially on UHF. The VHF Hi performance is likely to be slightly better on the EZ HD/RCA ANT751, by a db or 2. Hollands modelled it and is getting 7.5db gain on channel 7 with a rise through the hear of the band then slight drop off on Channel 12 and 13.

Are digital Channels 2,4,5,9 all broadcasting their HD on those actual RF channels or are they broadcasting them on UHF RF channels instead?
What results do you get when you remove the splitter and only use the rabbit ears?
Is the railing wood or metal?
Have you checked the FCC DTV reception map for your addresse for channels 9 and 11?

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

The Hill (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/DTVtransitionRevisited.html).

Are digital Channels 2,4,5,9 all broadcasting their HD on those actual RF channels or are they broadcasting them on UHF RF channels instead?
What results do you get when you remove the splitter and only use the rabbit ears?
Is the railing wood or metal?
Have you checked the FCC DTV reception map for your addresse for channels 9 and 11?

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

Really odd. Both the Fool and & fcc.gov show 7, 11, and 13 as reasonably strong to pick up. Stations that I theoretically should not be getting(WNJU 47.1(Spanish)100% and WLNY 55.1 70-90%) I DO get! But I still don't get 7 or 11, and 13 is all over the meter. BTW Walford 9 is not a problem, it's 7 & 11. And in the attached image they do state in fine print about reception in hilly areas.

As for the railing, it is metal as you can see in the photo. The antennae are not attached to it per se. The rabbit ears is sitting on a 1/2" piece of board with a 1/4inch hole in it, on top of the ledge, and the C-2 is bolted into that cinderblock wall below the flashing.

Don't tell me THAT has something to do with it. :mad:
Like I've said repeatedly, let me order & install http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ instead of that crappy splitter and report back to y'alls.

The Hill (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/DTVtransitionRevisited.html).

That will be fine - yes, THAT'S a hill, I know. And I shouldn't need to install a rig like the one in that article just to get two lousy channels when I get everything else all over the map(except New Haven & Waterbury which I don't expect and don't want to be getting.

Well it's a combination. I spent years without abc, and with a steeper hill. On the 12th they went from 46-1 uhf ( I couldn't watch it) to 8 vhf and I get it on a CM 4228 as well as nbc (44-1) and cbs (38-1). For years analog vhf 8 was no go. Strange is the terrain.

D605....,
Your channel 9.1 is on RF channel 38 not RF channel 9 which is why you get it/
Metal close to your rabbit ears could be causing multipath interference which can be a major problem with digital tuners.
Have your tried only the rabbit ears yet as a test to see if will improve the UVHF signal strength by eliminating the signal loss caused by the splitter?

D605....,
Your channel 9.1 is on RF channel 38 not RF channel 9 which is why you get it/
Metal close to your rabbit ears could be causing multipath interference which can be a major problem with digital tuners.
Have your tried only the rabbit ears yet as a test to see if will improve the UVHF signal strength by eliminating the signal loss caused by the splitter?

Again, 9.1 never was a problem. I've said that several times here already.

As for the flashing atop that railing, is there something I could cover it with so as to eliminate-check that: mitigate the effect it may be having on the 'ears?

Finally, yes, yes, and yes, to your final question. My whole digital odyssey began as follows(fasten your seatbelts, take your anti-nausea medicine, and pay attention): ;)

1. RS VHF-only rabbit ears by themself(20 channels).

2. "Upgraded" RS rabbit ears with removable UHF 6"loop(25).

3. Clearstream C-2 by itself - straight 12' RG6 run to CM stb(26).

4. C-2 combined with original VHF-only 'ears with bargain-basement splitter(most channels received of all combinations listed here - 29 or 30 channels depending on weather at time of scan).

5. #4 above combined with http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062059 , which dropped my scan count by 8 channels to 20(.1s plus .x's), for reasons I explained in post #9.

6. Back to combo #4. (whew!! We hope you have enjoyed your ride aboard the DTV Coaster!)

Of all these combinations, NONE of them pulled in 7 or 11. Channel 13 swings wildly on the signal meter, but dissolves into squares - momentarily - only if a Philippine style rainstorm stops by for a visit(!).

As I said, I'm quite satisfied with what I'm getting, but still miss my ABC-7 and CW-11. And from what I'm reading over in the "DTV Channels on VHF; better or worse?" thread in this forum, it seems like A LOT of people, in this NY market and in others, have also lost their ABC affiliates and CW channels since the transition as well.

I certainly do not think the Hill is the cause of your problem since you are getting all of the UHF channels from the Empire State building and UHF channels are more subject to line of sight problems then VHF.
The problem is that many users who apparenty received analog channels without serious problems are having problems with digital VHF on the same RF channels as you found from the "better or worse" thread( aslthough many of them do not have a VUHF capable antennas such as your 4" rabbit ears). If you can make a simple 300 ohm dipole and suspend it above the railing or move the rabbit ears away from the railing I think you may be able to receive your UVHF channels.
The wide swings on channel 13 are very indicative of multpath reception as the tuner switches between the direct path to the antenna and a signal received from another reflective object.

I certainly do not think the Hill is the cause of your problem since you are getting all of the UHF channels from the Empire State building and UHF channels are more subject to line of sight problems then VHF.
The problem is that many users who apparenty received analog channels without serious problems are having problems with digital VHF on the same RF channels as you found from the "better or worse" thread( aslthough many of them do not have a VUHF capable antennas such as your 4" rabbit ears). If you can make a simple 300 ohm dipole and suspend it above the railing or move the rabbit ears away from the railing I think you may be able to receive your UVHF channels.
The wide swings on channel 13 are very indicative of multpath reception as the tuner switches between the direct path to the antenna and a signal received from another reflective object.

How about lining the rail with lead - I.E., the shielding jacket they put on you at hospital when they take your x-ray?? LOL! Just supposing.

LOL,
Did you try a direct connection between the rabbit ears and the TV unit since if it workes then it would indicate that increased signal strength would solve the problem by eliminating the signal loss caused by using a splitter/combiner and therefore could be fixed by putting a signal amplifier between the rabbit ears and the splitter/combiner.

Here's the actual setup and a photo of the chunka metal I've used to combine the C-2(coax from the left) and the rabbit(flat lead upper-right):

LOL,
Did you try a direct connection between the rabbit ears and the TV unit since if it workes then it would indicate that increased signal strength would solve the problem by eliminating the signal loss caused by using a splitter/combiner and therefore could be fixed by putting a signal amplifier between the rabbit ears and the splitter/combiner.

Again, please READ through all of my replies in this thread, where I have repeatedly mentioned that I tried all antennas mentioned here by themselves and in combination with the C-2.

No solo antennas or combinations of antennas get ch7 or ch11, and 13 is shakey.

How about lining the rail with lead - I.E., the shielding jacket they put on you at hospital when they take your x-ray??

If they were broadcasting X-rays, maybe this would have an effect.

If they were broadcasting X-rays, maybe this would have an effect.

I was sarcastically suggesting that lead-lining that shiny flashing on the balcony rail would address some of the possible reflectiotation issues I might be having with the VHF section. :rolleyes:

Any takers?

Here's the actual setup and a photo of the chunka metal I've used to combine the C-2(coax from the left) and the rabbit(flat lead upper-right):
I have a couple suggestions. First, shorten the rabbit ears to about 15 inches on each side. In the picture they look fully extended, which is good for Low VHF, but is too long for High VHF.

Second, use a UVSJ, not a 2-way power divider/combiner. The UVSJ will have lower loss, and more importantly, it will filter out any VHF signals coming from the UHF antenna. Why is that important? If you combine the signals from the 2 antennas using a 2-way power divider/combiner they may be close to 180 degrees out of phase, in which case they will cancel each other out and you will end up with little or no signal.

Third, you need to keep the 300 Ohm twinlead away from the metal rail. One way to do this would be to put the balun right at the rabbit ears and use coax from there to the UVSJ.

reflectiotation issues

Oh, that....can't help you there, you need a specialist ;)

For channel 7 the minimum rabbit ear length is 36" (18" per side) so 40" is fine and worked before for you with analog.
D65.,,,
When you used only one of the antennas you did not state that the splitter was not also still being used.
I read in one of my searches about your problem that digital signals have a verticle compoent as well as a horizontal component but it did not explain what complications this could cause. It may be that with the metal railing this verticle conponent is being totally blocked.
Have you checked with any neighbors to see if they are receiving digtital 7 or 11 since the cutover?
I believe you stated that the rabbit ears are mounted on a board which is mounted on the railing, have you tried unmounting the board from the railing and moving it away from the railing? (suspending it from the ceiling might provide interesting results)

I have a couple suggestions. First, shorten the rabbit ears to about 15 inches on each side. In the picture they look fully extended, which is good for Low VHF, but is too long for High VHF.

I tried shortening them last week - 1 section each. No difference. I guess per your suggestion they shouldn't be even half their full heights. I'll try that. Hows the angle on them, by the way??

Second, use a UVSJ, not a 2-way power divider/combiner. The UVSJ will have lower loss, and more importantly, it will filter out any VHF signals coming from the UHF antenna. Why is that important? If you combine the signals from the 2 antennas using a 2-way power divider/combiner they may be close to 180 degrees out of phase, in which case they will cancel each other out and you will end up with little or no signal.

I'll tell you about acquiring that UVSJ - at least through solid signal - It's well-nigh IMPOSSIBLE! You hold for 10 minutes and then get routed to voice mail, which they never call back! And nobody local would even know what a UVSJ combiner IS! :mad:

Third, you need to keep the 300 Ohm twinlead away from the metal rail. One way to do this would be to put the balun right at the rabbit ears and use coax from there to the UVSJ.
Balun? You mean the thingie converting the 300ohm twinlead to 75ohm coax? Yeah, I could reposition it I suppose, coil the excess near that brick?


See my responses right after your paragraphs. ^

In summary Paul, your suggestions are very helpful and I will try them over time. What i never understood was how overloading an incoming signal could also result in not pulling it in. I just figured if it was too strong it would be overly bright and distorted - at least in the case of analog.

When you used only one of the antennas you did not state that the splitter was not also still being used.


<sighhh> Walford, Walford, WHAT am I going to do with you?

Think about what you said above and whether it makes any sense! WHY would I use a splitter in line with only ONE antenna?

Of COURSE I didn't use the splitter with just one antenna!

I ran RG6 straight from the C-2 to the CM set top, ran a scan, then added a balun to the rg6 and reconnected it directly to the rabbit ears.

Neither pulled in channel 7 or 11, digital, that is. And 13 remains marginal(as of this typing, 30-50% signal strength).

Just for the heckuvit I shortened the rabbit-ears to 1/2 full height, still did not get 7 or 11, and lost channel 13 altogether.

Either I need a better solution for U-VHF, or Digital on U-VHF is simply not going to work in the market I'm in.

I will try some of the other solutions - perhaps even cutting down the 300ohm twin-lead on the rabbit ears to just 4-5 inches instead of the present 15", and splicing the bare wire into the balun and into the UVSJ Pico once that arrives Tuhsrday or Friday.

Suspending the rabbit-ears from the ceiling won't be an option either because I was born inherently clumsy and will whack it with my head each and everytime I walk across that balcony. :D

How about a better quality rabbit-ears than the RS I have? It's a little old and wasn't the sturdiest even just out of the stable(!) I remember the ones that used to come with the 19" TVs that were considered standard size in the 70s-80s, you could get a hernia picking up those antennas - they were actually pretty substantial and actually required some muscle to pull the sections out to extend the things. And they didn't double over when you pushed them back in like the $7.99 specials at RS or Zipmart!

Single-owner TV repair shop, perhaps?

Some interesting links:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

If only the railing is metal I beleive that you just need a way to get the UVHF antenna away from the railing

Last night, Tuesday, I replaced the splitter with the Pico-Macom UVSJ combiner from SolidSignal.

Here is an updated list of what I get and the associated signal levels:
(as of 6/30/09):

CBS: 2.1 - 100%

NBC: 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 - 100%

NYW(Fox): 5.1, 5.2 - 100%

WOR(MyNine): 9.1, 9.2 - 100%

PIX(CW11): 11.1, 11.2 - Fluctuates 90-100%

WNET(PBS): 13.1, 13.2, 13.3 - 60 - 80%(better than 40-80%)

LIW: 21.1, 21.2, 21.3 - 100%

NJN: 23.1, 23.2, 23.3 - 100%(Got it tuesday night after installing the Pico - WITH LIGHTNING & RAIN IN THE VICINITY, don't get at all today - WTH?!)

WNYE: 25.1, 25.2 - 100%

iOnTV: 31.1, 31.2, 31.3 - 100%

Spanish: NJU, XTV, etc: 41.1, 41.2, 47.1, 47.2, 67.x, 68.x 100% except 47 which fluctuates as low as 85% sometimes, but does not break up.

WLNY: 55.1 - 80 - 100%

Overall - Noticeable improvments in signal strengths of channels I've already got. Still no Channel 7(ABC), and I don't understand WHY I got the additional NJN for just one evening, and now no longer get it.

As far as the orientation of the two pickups goes, what you see in the newly attached photos is what works for me. If I move the VHF rabbit ears in any direction from where it is in the photos - I LOSE channels - PERIOD. If I rotate it with respect to the direction the Clearstream C-2 is aimed, I LOSE CHANNELS - PERIOD.

Their proximity to each other and they way they are both aimed maximizes the channels I get to what I listed above. They are complementing each other the way I have them in the photo. And thanks to whomever recommended flattening the rabbit ears out - it even brought in Ch7 for a few minutes - LOL - but it did help 11 & 13.

I thought of cantilevering the rabbit ears out two feet from that rail by nailing two 2x4s together at their ends to form an upside-down "L", the long part of that L hanging down inside the balcony wall to counter-balance the shorter arm hanging out past the edge of the building. That would at least get the rabbit ears away from that metal flashing on the railing.

Your thoughts are appreciated, esp with regards to why I no longer receive channel 23(NJN) - which I also did not get with the old splitter.

** Notice in "Detail of connects" how I gingerly attempted to keep the twin-lead from the rabbit-ears up & away from that flashing!**

I see a couple of possible areas of improvement

1) That twin lead is running along the mast for the other antenna. You want it separated from anything, especially but not exclusively metal.

2) That appears to be one huge opening. Perhaps you could get a relatively small VHF directional antenna like an Antennacraft Y-5-7-13 in that spot.

The thunderstorms were likely the reason you got WNJS. The characteristics of the atmosphere change around a storm, which could have either enhanced your reception of WNJS, or blocked reception of another station interfering with it.

I see a couple of possible areas of improvement

1) That twin lead is running along the mast for the other antenna. You want it separated from anything, especially but not exclusively metal.

2) That appears to be one huge opening. Perhaps you could get a relatively small VHF directional antenna like an Antennacraft Y-5-7-13 in that spot.

The thunderstorms were likely the reason you got WNJS. The characteristics of the atmosphere change around a storm, which could have either enhanced your reception of WNJS, or blocked reception of another station interfering with it.

1) In order to accomplish that, the twin-lead would have to be suspended in mid-air at least 4 inches from said mast and the metal rail covering. I don't know how to do that sort of thing.

2) It's not, really. That's the issue with photos(and video) - they both can make a broom closet look like a ballroom(!). It's 12' wide, and the height of the opening is about 3.5'. Two people leaning there, elbow-to-elbow, would occupy most of the remaining rail from the antennas to the potted plants out of view at the opposite end. Not much room to hang stealth-bomber shaped antennas of any size in.

The thunderstorms - creepy explanation. Think the next time a storm like that crops up I'll get to see the '69 World Series - A La Dennis Quaid? LOL!! Guess I need to go back to school and learn a thing or two about interference. Alls I do know is, ABC(TV & radio) didn't help matters after 9/11 by moving all their transmitters to the Jersey side. :( So I must be doing SOMEthings right - only ABC7 "absolutely refuses" to come in.

This is ridiculous - bring back analog!

Wrong - unfortunately analog won't be back. What should be done is to relocate the small percentage of digital OTA broadcasters from HiVHF to the UHF band like they should have in the first place! That way viewers would need only one antenna, size depending on distance, instead of cobbling two, three, or more together to get what one used to, pre-June 2009.

You certainly have tried to resolve the problem with some resonable solutions.
Have you checked with any neighbors or with the subforum for your location to see if anyboy else in Westchester is able to get 7,11, and 13 sucessfully?
Have you had any luck in contating ABC to see if they are working on any solutons such as increasing the output power. I agree it would make sense if they could switch back to UHF but who knows how long it would take to make that happen.

You have an interesting problem that doesn't make any sense. According to various sources I checked (Wikipedia, fybush.com), WABC and WPIX broadcast from Empire on VHF, so if you're getting one you should get the other. According to Wikipedia, WWOR is still on UHF 38.

I wonder if WABC is broadcasting on lower power or with a directional signal. Here in Atlanta we have a VHF channel 11 that's full power and comes in great, but the PBS affiliate is on channel 8 and is lower power and directional. I can't receive it.

Are you getting zero signal on VHF channel 7, or are you getting something (just not enough signal to lock)?

You have an interesting problem that doesn't make any sense. According to various sources I checked (Wikipedia, fybush.com), WABC and WPIX broadcast from Empire on VHF, so if you're getting one you should get the other. According to Wikipedia, WWOR is still on UHF 38.

I wonder if WABC is broadcasting on lower power or with a directional signal. Here in Atlanta we have a VHF channel 11 that's full power and comes in great, but the PBS affiliate is on channel 8 and is lower power and directional. I can't receive it.

Are you getting zero signal on VHF channel 7, or are you getting something (just not enough signal to lock)?

In the few cases when I did get channel 7(when the CM 700 locked onto it), it was still too weak to show a moving picture. The sound stuttered and the image froze and pixellated. In fact, the box would simply show a combination of a frozen 7 and a pixellated but moving image of the channel I last tuned in before reaching 7(Fox5 or WOR 9 depending on if I was tuning up or down).

Lately, it does not register at all when I do a full scan(not just an "update").

I admire and appreciate all the concern shown on my thread regarding this, but look: It's ONE channel. I'm not going to fret it! According to TV fool I'm already in a semi-red area behind this hill(which doesn't seem to affect the UHFs as much as the HiVHFs) and theoretically should be getting very little usable signal on any channel, but look at my update - I get practically the whole frickin' NY Metro except for 7! I figure, I'm not going to live here forever, and one day I will live where I will get 7.1 in just fine.

1) In order to accomplish that, the twin-lead would have to be suspended in mid-air at least 4 inches from said mast and the metal rail covering. I don't know how to do that sort of thing.


Stand-offs, as few as possible. Radio shack actually still sells them, as product 15-853 and 15-823.


2) It's not, really. That's the issue with photos(and video) - they both can make a broom closet look like a ballroom(!). It's 12' wide, and the height of the opening is about 3.5'.

It's the width that is usually a problem -- some VHF antennas are relatively flat vertically, not like corner reflectors. Provided you can stick them out the opening so the length isn't an issue, anyway.

Alls I do know is, ABC(TV & radio) didn't help matters after 9/11 by moving all their transmitters to the Jersey side.

Is the building between your antenna and the transmitter? If so, you're probably out of luck unless you can find another location.

Is the building between your antenna and the transmitter? If so, you're probably out of luck unless you can find another location.

Did you mean "hill" instead of building, in that last question? I sincerely hope you did. LOL!

..... I get practically the whole frickin' NY Metro except for 7!

for whatever its worth > most or all of the owned & operated abc stations are having major signal coverage problems...they mostly all went back to vhf (mostly hi-band vhf ch 7, i think) from uhf after 6/12/09....

in chicago, abc applied to the fcc for higher transmit power and are testing that now....also they applied to the fcc to build a translator transmitter on uhf ch 32 to 'fill in' their signal gaps....

so i bet abc in nyc is doing the same things to fix the mess they are in....so relief may be coming soon for u.....

Just a heads up - I just caught glance of jjeff's CM-7000 post and noticed a lot of comments on there about its supposed abysmal performance at rendering Hi-VHF digital channels.

I have that converter, and I'm wondering if this might be *part* of my problem. Although again - it's ONLY ch7.1 that will not come in "at all", and everything else is 80 - 100% with reduced fluctuation since dropping in that Pico-Macom UVSJ. Kinda silly to start experimenting with other CECBs just because one channel can't be received, don't youz think??

Did you mean "hill" instead of building, in that last question? I sincerely hope you did. LOL!

No, I meant building (meaning your own building). You said the ABC transmitter was in NJ, whereas the others are on the Empire State Building.

No, I meant building (meaning your own building). You said the ABC transmitter was in NJ, whereas the others are on the Empire State Building.

OMG!

Nybbler, I won't even entertain this. PLEASE review my many photos I've attached to my posts and observe which way the antennas are aimed and my narrations.

Then decide for yourself if my building is between my aerials & NYC.

Everybody:

This photo was taken aiming roughly toward NYC, the same way my antennas are aimed.

In that vein, does it look like my BUILDING is in between those antennas and the Manhattan transmitters??

(Heaven help us all!!)

Have you gotten some strandoffs yet at Radion Shack to keep the 300 ohm cable away from the pole?
Following is the only picture I could find of what they look like:

http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/s/sdw1401gn_17/sdw1401gn_17_pss_aen.pdf

Also please do not use yellow fonts. I use black text on a white background in the AVSforum and therfore I can't read the yellow.
I can understand your frustration at some of our posts, please understand that we might not of read every post in this thread correctly and therefore some of our posts may duplicate previous posts but we are trying to help you , not to upset you.

Have you gotten some strandoffs yet at Radion Shack to keep the 300 ohm cable away from the pole?
Following is the only picture I could find of what they look like:

http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/s/sdw1401gn_17/sdw1401gn_17_pss_aen.pdf

Also please do not use yellow fonts. I use black text on a white background in the AVSforum and therfore I can't read the yellow.
I can understand your frustration at some of our posts, please understand that we might not of read every post in this thread correctly and therefore some of our posts may duplicate previous posts but we are trying to help you , not to upset you.

Actully, not yet. and they would have to be arranged in a most interesting fashion to kepe them away from that rail as they go over and down the side toward where the UVSJ combiner is.

To my knowledge, the only yellow in my posts/replies is the names of the links to the photos I've attached(beyond my control), and in my "bolt of lightning" signature. I know I used greeen to insert replies to someone, mid-thread, but beyond that, I've been using defaults.

Thanks for the standoff tip, I will be using them in conjunction with my lumber "cantilever" project to mount the VHF dipole out from the side of this building. Also, lifting the twinlead too far above the rail brings it too close to the C-2, further aggravating reception problems. :mad: You can't win!

And like I said, if both antennas aren't aiming in precisely the same direction and aren't positioned relatively to each other, as I have them - reception flounders.

Again people: I have in those photos the worst of all possible OTA environments - surrounded by metal & masonry, a modest hill in the general direction of Manhattan/NJ - you name it! This all in addition to the fact that digital OTA still uses part of the dinosaur VHF band that it should not be on in the first place. Your suggestions and my efforts have optimized the reception as much as possible given the conditions present. Thanks to all here, even if there were some misunderstandings as to where NYC was relative to my apt building. :D

A wood-frame house with decent line-of-sight would lick all of the above challenges and send my digital channel count skyrocketing accordingly. ;)

The standoffs permit lots of flexability since after you slide the twinlead into the gromet you turn the gromet and that locks in the twin lead. This allows you make loops were required to keep the twinlead away from other surfaces.

fyi for D-6500 ...according to

http://www.rabbitears.info/vhf.php >

06/29/09: WABC has requested a power increase.
Licensed: 1328' 11.7 kW ND
Requested: 1328' 27.0 kW ND

thats more than double.....so maybe that will solve your WABC problem....

and i bet ultimately WABC will either get even higher power permission or be allowed to move to a uhf channel like WLS ABC in chicago is requesting.... WLS wants to switch to ch 44 from ch 7.....

....... What i never understood was how overloading an incoming signal could also result in not pulling it in. I just figured if it was too strong it would be overly bright and distorted - at least in the case of analog.

no, what happens is the very sensitive 'front end' of the tuner is 'blinded' or overloaded by the very strong signals .....and in extreme cases the tuner then cant resolve any signals, weak or strong, on any frequency.....

In the photos, you can see I cantilevered the VHF rabbit ears - still flat, about 14" out over edge of building.

I also replaced the metal living-room lamp post holding the C-2 with a wooden broom stick(the less metal the better, right?) and stood off the 300ohm twinlead with both a stand off and the brick you see there as a counterweight.

Results?

All channels in my original post stay above 90% signal strength at all times(exc. when severe storms approach)!

Channel 7.1??

No FREAKIN' comment! :mad:

And if anyone here says there's something wrong with my setup, they probably work for ABC. Because if something in that photo was preventing ABC from coming in, it would prevent ALL OF MY CHANNELS from coming in or weaken their indicated signal strength severely - I'd get NOTHING. Unless ABC is transmitting on a frequency/bandwidth not used on this planet. :eek:

It's thoroughly on ABC to fix this one! (And I hope someone over there is lurking)