I just noticed while watching Kung Fu Panda on Blu-ray that my MFW-15 seems to be handling some low bass scenes badly. The one at the end of KFP where Po says Skidoosh and there is a seismic wave is perfect example. The sub seems to be pressed beyond its limit and there is this flapping / rattling kind of sound. It is only noticeable during a part of that particlar 10 second scene, but it has me concerned. When running the sub hot (cranking the amp on the sub to ~ 3/4) however , the speaker seems to be pretty out of control (the flapping and rattling is predominate and the actual intended sound is almost completely compromised). Anyone have any experience with this? Is the driver malfunctioning? Is it possible I am, without knowing it, overdriving the speaker (I am using audyssey and only have the sub amp at half power)? I have heard that Audyssey at times will run the sub hot.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

J

Is this a new development for your sub or has it always done this?

I wonder if you are sitting in a null perhaps and the sub is fighting the room.

I am not sure if it was doing this before because it is less noticeable in the seating poistion. In this case, I happened to be sitting on the floor a few feet away from the sub when the scene I referenced above occurred.

I just replayed the skadooosh scene at some very loud levels and could not reproduce this (I did manage to piss off the wife though, so no more skadooosh tonight).

Do you have a rat shack meter, if so run the test tone from the AVR and take a reading, this will tell you how hot or not it's running.

Mine does it with any movie with deep bass.Sounds like if you took a piece of construction paper and crumbled it up.When it comes to drivers,This sub is at the bottom of the barrel.Would be a decent sub if not for the $20 driver they put in it.

Mine does it with any movie with deep bass.Sounds like if you took a piece of construction paper and crumbled it up.When it comes to drivers,This sub is at the bottom of the barrel.Would be a decent sub if not for the $20 driver they put in it.

The MFW is at the bottom of the barrel driver wise? This is news, we know the amps were garbage, now the drivers are? Most people know what driver was used for these subs and I have yet to hear that they were junk.

Tell you what, email Mark Seaton and tell him the driver he spec'd is a 20 buck pile of junk and his testing methods weren't good enough to figure this out. ;)

Lets try and be honest with this, they have a long way to go to prove their amps but I think most would agree the driver is fine. This doesn't mean that some didn't fail however but those that have been replaced have not been complaining of a second issue.

That was honest.The driver is cheap.I've tried different subs from svs,klipsch and 2 diy subs all calibrated the same and the mfw-15 is the only sub to do this.I am going to try a different driver,Probally an av15-x and I'm willing to bet the noise will be gone.

The MFW is at the bottom of the barrel driver wise? This is news, we know the amps were garbage, now the drivers are? Most people know what driver was used for these subs and I have yet to hear that they were junk.

Tell you what, email Mark Seaton and tell him the driver he spec'd is a 20 buck pile of junk and his testing methods weren't good enough to figure this out. ;)

Lets try and be honest with this, they have a long way to go to prove their amps but I think most would agree the driver is fine. This doesn't mean that some didn't fail however but those that have been replaced have not been complaining of a second issue.

Just because Mark Seaton specd something does not mean that av123 is actually using it, and I doubt Mark Seaton is QA'ing every sub coming off the line.

Honestly, can you trust av123 at this point to use quality drivers in all their subs? For all we know some subs got stuck with substandard drivers and some subs received the correct ones. At this point with this company, nothing would surprise me.

For all we know some subs got stuck with substandard drivers and some subs received the correct ones. At this point with this company, nothing would surprise me.

Very possible.Mine is from the first batch,Good amp,Bad driver.Maybe the second batch was good drivers,Bad amps.I've seen quite a few post with people complaing about the driver,With many being replaced under warranty.

That was honest.The driver is cheap.I've tried different subs from svs,klipsch and 2 diy subs all calibrated the same and the mfw-15 is the only sub to do this.I am going to try a different driver,Probally an av15-x and I'm willing to bet the noise will be gone.

I could counter that many are getting incredible output from their MFW's but this will just be taken as me supporting AV123. Lets be clear, the amp has issues, it needs to be taken care of, this is clear. But to now start ragging on the MFW's driver because you believe yours is bottoming out does not mean that they used a cheap driver.

It could mean your MFW has a driver issue, I have no clue how you have it set up or if you have checked the front plate or anything else but because you believe you have an issue does not mean they used a cheap driver or there would be as many driver threads as there are amplifier threads, but there isn't.

I know this, my MFW SMOKES my Klipsch 15" KSW-300 which has the same size driver, costs the same and has the same power so does that mean Klipsch used a cheap driver in it's KSW-300? Hell no, but that KSW-300 sounds like garbage at the same volume levels the MFW can achieve.

Just because Mark Seaton specd something does not mean that av123 is actually using it, and I doubt Mark Seaton is QA'ing every sub coming off the line.

Agreed, however he has stated who makes the driver being used and we have not heard anything about the thousands sold using cheap drivers.

Honestly, can you trust av123 at this point to use quality drivers in all their subs? For all we know some subs got stuck with substandard drivers and some subs received the correct ones. At this point with this company, nothing would surprise me.

Ok, well, agreed, but this would be easy to verify, have this guy post close up pictures of the driver, it will be pretty easy to tell if his is using a different one or not, agreed?

I'm not backing AV123 here, I guess this is just the next step in the evolution of these threads.

It is possible the driver is failing, it is not a common issue (as opposed to say, the amp's failing) but not out of the realm of possibility. Some have commented in the past they would like to see a more robust driver but it seems to be a rare complaint. For this price class, the driver performs pretty well. The issues I have seen more commonly have been a leaky gasket around the driver.

Could you find a better one, I'm sure, in this price class for a commercial sub? IDK.

AV123 has well documented QA issues but the driver from Eminence is pretty good.

And trust me, I am not an apologist for this sub, I just think the issues are elsewhere.

To the OP: If it is a new issue, check to see if the driver is bad. I am sure others here can give you a couple quick tests to see if it is obviously kaput.

Check the sub from for leaks, the other thing that happened to me was that one time I heard a rattle on a scene and found out that it was the sub rattleing with the concrete floor tile so I decoupled the sub with a rug and problem solved..! I have tried to over tax the sub but in my apt it is to loud to keep going.

I had a similar issue a year ago. I was able to reduce the effect with some internal intervention inspired by the original "stick a sock in it" thread on the AV123 forum. Here's my thread complete with pictures.

"http://forums.**********/showthread.php?t=34466"

Can't seem to embed a link. Replace the asterisks above with 'av123dotcom' with a period instead of dot.

So, someone valued the amp the other day at $5 and now the driver at $25... What's left, a $10 cabinet? Quite a mark-up on these things, huh? Well, I gotta side with the abundance of anecdotal evidence and agree with KH that most don't seem to think that the driver is cheap, per se, although no one has ever stated that it's a superior driver. My take has always been that all three components were designed to function as a unit that would provide good performance at a value price point. Problems in the execution of this scheme notwithstanding, it would seem that this was initially achieved. However, the close tolerances in the specs required to achieve this performance did not continue to be met. The tipping point between value and performance seems to have been rather precarious... But, a cheap driver? Not many have made that assertion. I'm not an apologist in the least, but mine continues to perform well, with everything I've asked it to do - knock on wood (not veneer, mind you.);)

So, someone valued the amp the other day at $5 and now the driver at $25... What's left, a $10 cabinet? Quite a mark-up on these things, huh? Well, I gotta side with the abundance of anecdotal evidence and agree with KH that most don't seem to think that the driver is cheap, per se, although no one has ever stated that it's a superior driver. My take has always been that all three components were designed to function as a unit that would provide good performance at a value price point. Problems in the execution of this scheme notwithstanding, it would seem that this was initially achieved. However, the close tolerances in the specs required to achieve this performance did not continue to be met. The tipping point between value and performance seems to have been rather precarious... But, a cheap driver? Not many have made that assertion. I'm not an apologist in the least, but mine continues to perform well, with everything I've asked it to do - knock on wood (not veneer, mind you.);)

Well put. This morning I asked my wife to help me with an experiment and to be as honest with me as she can, listen to skadoosh at what she considers unrealistic (much higher than most wives like I believe) volumes and listen up close from the floor and tell me if she hears anything distorted or bottoming out (I'll keep that long explanation out of this, but she gets it now) and after 6 times of playing it back for her she could not hear anything distorted or out of the norm. I did manage to get the one with heat issues to cut out, so I stopped at 6, well, I would have stopped at 6 anyway, the wife was giving me the squinty eye which any married guy would recognize as cease what you're doing now, she has had enough. :o

I'm not on the fan boy train, if there is something wrong believe me, I WANT to know about it so I can get it taken care of. Aside from an over-heating issue (I'm on the list, lets not debate this, this thread is about bottoming out) they hit that scene with extreme authority. Now, as extreme as a Submersive or other well known subs, I doubt it, haven't heard them, but dual working MFW's can provide a VERY intense amount of bass.

At the listening position during skadoosh measuring with my rat shack meter the system hit 118db, not very scientific I know but 118db isn't something to sneeze at. We can pick it apart I suppose but it is what the meter shows and in music it has hit 120db (my living room isn't that big, 15x15 squared, not sealed). Point is I think, if there was going to be any bottoming out from this "bottom of the barrel driver", I would get it. I know my Klipsch KSW-300 couldn't handle the volume level I was driving the MFW's at this morning, it does a good job, but not even in the same ball park and nobody would accuse Klipsch of using a bottom of the barrel driver in this model.

So if the OP or anybody else is getting bottoming out, I would suggest troubleshooting it and insuring it is the driver and not the cabinet, front plate, make sure it's sealed around the driver, the driver is mounted tight, the amplifier isn't loose or something in the house rattling, then contact AV123 for a new driver if it turns out to be your driver. If the new one also bottoms out then you're either very unlucky, run it very hot or well, we know where this could lead, so not going there.

I hope the OP gets it figured out, good luck.

So, someone valued the amp the other day at $5 and now the driver at $25... What's left, a $10 cabinet? Quite a mark-up on these things, huh? Well, I gotta side with the abundance of anecdotal evidence and agree with KH that most don't seem to think that the driver is cheap, per se, although no one has ever stated that it's a superior driver. My take has always been that all three components were designed to function as a unit that would provide good performance at a value price point. Problems in the execution of this scheme notwithstanding, it would seem that this was initially achieved. However, the close tolerances in the specs required to achieve this performance did not continue to be met. The tipping point between value and performance seems to have been rather precarious... But, a cheap driver? Not many have made that assertion. I'm not an apologist in the least, but mine continues to perform well, with everything I've asked it to do - knock on wood (not veneer, mind you.);)

well, i hate to correct you but i have made the statement that it is a CHEAP driver many times over now. not to say it doesn't work, but i also reported very early on getting "flapping" sounds when the driver is pushed hard. they are not expensive drivers, not even close. just compare the actual driver to what HSU and SVS uses or eD Epik etc.....they are not even in the same game, never mind the same league. that being said....the subs do work, and are damn good for the money *at what i paid...not what they are priced at now...

i would not pay $700.00 for an mfw15...$500.00 sure, but no more.


btw...has ANYONE received a replacement amp yet????!?!?!?

MFW-15 list of problems.

1) Amplifier
2) Veneer finishes. This is one reason there have been so many B-Stock sold by MLS through his front company.
3) Shipping damage/ damage caused by trying to move it with spikes on it.
4) Driver failures
5) Heat issues
6) Mismatched volume with the same volume control setting.
7) Air Leaks.
8) HUM. This is a vast problem with its own subset of remedies. Since when does the owner have to open the sub and move wiring?


If I left anything out, please feel free to add to the list.

well, i hate to correct you but i have made the statement that it is a CHEAP driver many times over now. not to say it doesn't work, but i also reported very early on getting "flapping" sounds when the driver is pushed hard. they are not expensive drivers, not even close. just compare the actual driver to what HSU and SVS uses or eD Epik etc.....they are not even in the same game, never mind the same league. that being said....the subs do work, and are damn good for the money *at what i paid...not what they are priced at now...

i would not pay $700.00 for an mfw15...$500.00 sure, but no more.


btw...has ANYONE received a replacement amp yet????!?!?!?


What Eminence driver are they using?

What Eminence driver are they using?

"Bottom of the barrel":D Eminence makes some great drivers.Higher end,Higher cost.They also make lower end,"bottom of the barrel",cheap drivers.This driver resides in the lower end.

You have not said anything about how you have it set up. For all we know you could be running this thing 15 dB hot!

you have not said anything about how you have it set up. For all we know you could be running this thing 15 db hot!

+1

My MFW is set about 3-5db + and it delivers gobs of bass in my ~400 square foot room (including connected kitchen and hallway).....set up properly the MFW will not ever bottom. Ive considered getting another MFW but in reality another is not needed , a single MFW fills up my room just fine, and if I want more bass I can set the MFW another 3-5db hot without problem.

This is just a guess but id say a single MFW is capable of filling up a 5000 cubic foot room. If your bottoming one out then your either need more subwoofers for your large room or you have it set way too hot.

I have spent enough time with it including removing the driver and resetting it. There is no question it is a faulty driver. I have no idea when it started, but my guess it has been around since the beginning. To be honest I have really never been impressed with this sub and now I think I know why. I wonder what the chances are I will be able to get this fixed under warranty? My guess is AV123 will never return my phone calls or email. Anyone know where you can get another driver? Would this be worth doing? Also, I do not have sodering Iron. how do I get the leads reattached?

Thanks to everyone for their help.

John

Driver replacements seem to be pretty straightforward and should be able to be met by Av123. I have not seen any mention they are low on drivers, so hopefully it should be reasonable quick. Send an email today and a follow up call tomorrow and hopefully they will get it all rolling for you. If I remember correctly the leads are attached via spring clips on the driver,so you shouldn't need a soldering iron, but I only saw the driver once, close to a year ago.

The leads to the driver are soldered on. Maybe the one they give me will include spring clips. Anway, I really hope they will send me a new driver. Given what has been going on with the amps, I am predicting a long hard road. I will let you all know how the customer service is on this issue.

Best to all,

John

Hi there. I was having the exacy same problem with my MFW. Same movie also with Iron Man. After accidently moving my SW to a corner of my room and re watching KFP, the botoming out went away. I was bottoming out at default levels on the AVR and only listening to -35db on the AVR. After the accidental relocation of my sub I can tell you that this sub is now performing like a champ. Never thought my house can shake this much. Try relocating your sub to a different location. I now listen at almost reference level with no problems from the sub.

Hi there. I was having the exacy same problem with my MFW. Same movie also with Iron Man. After accidently moving my SW to a corner of my room and re watching KFP, the botoming out went away. I was bottoming out at default levels on the AVR and only listening to -35db on the AVR. After the accidental relocation of my sub I can tell you that this sub is now performing like a champ. Never thought my house can shake this much. Try relocating your sub to a different location. I now listen at almost reference level with no problems from the sub.

Glad you have your placement optimized and issue resolved but I have to ask. How do you accidentally move a MFW-15?

He He...yeah that sub is heavy. I just decided I wanted to vacuum the carpet and the clean the back of my entertainment center from lint and dust. So I pushed the sub to the corner. It was next to my Center speaker before the relocation. Was too tired after cleaning, decided to watch a movie and to my surprise the sub performed like a champ. So happy now.

well, i hate to correct you but i have made the statement that it is a CHEAP driver many times over now. not to say it doesn't work, but i also reported very early on getting "flapping" sounds when the driver is pushed hard.

Hey Pure-BS...

If I recall correctly, you resisted the idea of calibration like it was going to be some kind of torture. IMHO your original disatisfaction had more to do with refusing to do basic set-up than it did with the driver. Common mistake, but a lot of people tried to convince you and you weren't listening.

He He...yeah that sub is heavy. I just decided I wanted to vacuum the carpet and the clean the back of my entertainment center from lint and dust. So I pushed the sub to the corner. It was next to my Center speaker before the relocation. Was too tired after cleaning, decided to watch a movie and to my surprise the sub performed like a champ. So happy now.

OK cool, all I could picture was pushing it so hard it jumped over to the corner. :) I guess cleaning can be more rewarding than I thought.

well, i hate to correct you but i have made the statement that it is a CHEAP driver many times over now. not to say it doesn't work, but i also reported very early on getting "flapping" sounds when the driver is pushed hard. they are not expensive drivers, not even close. just compare the actual driver to what HSU and SVS uses or eD Epik etc.....they are not even in the same game, never mind the same league. that being said....the subs do work, and are damn good for the money *at what i paid...not what they are priced at now...

i would not pay $700.00 for an mfw15...$500.00 sure, but no more.
I stand corrected, I do remember your assertions, but I wasn't sure you were sober at the time you made them and I meant to state that I hadn't read any credible statements about the driver being cheap...;)

Seriously, it seems like such problems usually occur among those who always want to push the limits.... You know, "More bass! More bass!!!!"

I think you may want to talk to Eminence about the quality of the drivers they make (and the ones they make for AV123). I believe they may have a very different take on the quality of their drivers.

Not saying it's impossible for a driver to be bad. I just haven't heard much in the way of them failing in any way.

For those who are curious, you can see some of Eminence's wares here....

www.eminence.com

Hi there. I was having the exacy same problem with my MFW. Same movie also with Iron Man. After accidently moving my SW to a corner of my room and re watching KFP, the botoming out went away. I was bottoming out at default levels on the AVR and only listening to -35db on the AVR. After the accidental relocation of my sub I can tell you that this sub is now performing like a champ. Never thought my house can shake this much. Try relocating your sub to a different location. I now listen at almost reference level with no problems from the sub.

So, let me get this straight, at -35 you're MFW's driver was bottoming out? But moving the sub by accident fixed it. :rolleyes:

I'm glad you found the right spot for the sub but I doubt it was ever bottoming out at -35 on the AVR unless you were all the way up on the AVR gain and the gain knob on the sub was all the way up, but then that would be a different thread.

I think you may want to talk to Eminence about the quality of the drivers they make (and the ones they make for AV123). I believe they may have a very different take on the quality of their drivers.

Not saying it's impossible for a driver to be bad. I just haven't heard much in the way of them failing in any way.

For those who are curious, you can see some of Eminence's wares here....

www.eminence.com

How much is a replacment driver for the MFW-15 when the sub is out of warranty? Does AV123 have a sliding scale for the price of the driver depending on how far out of the warranty period a particular MFW-15 is?

Can you negotiate the price of a replacement driver?

Has anyone made an inquiry to Eminence asking about the driver and a way to verify it is a driver made by them? Do they make the entire driver? Can you buy a replacement from them?

Has anyone made an inquiry to Eminence asking about the driver and a way to verify it is a driver made by them? Do they make the entire driver? Can you buy a replacement from them?

If it's made by eminence, On the back side of the basket there should be a sticker with something like this "Made In the USA By Eminence".
It should also have a part number listed.

Here is a shot of my Dayton 15" DVC (aka Adire Audio Tempest clone) which is an Eminence driver:
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc41/mynym/BFM%20Tuba%20HT/IMG_5693.jpg

Has anyone made an inquiry to Eminence asking about the driver and a way to verify it is a driver made by them? Do they make the entire driver? Can you buy a replacement from them?

Curtis....I did talk to Eminence. They referred me back to AV123 for replacement drivers. I don't get the feeling they do direct sales (could be wrong on that count, as I didn't ask them that question directly).

What was clear, as you would expect, they are very proud of their products, however.

The only thing they did divulge is that they have several OEM customers.

I don't know what a replacement driver would cost. You can go to some resellers who handle Eminence, though.

I'm assuming that Mark Seaton spec'd the driver from them.

I guess if you wanted to "tweak" the sub, you could actually try a different 15" driver from a place like Parts Express. But, then you'd probably be changing the performance parameters that Mark Seaton set forth by doing so.

If it's made by eminence, On the back side of the basket there should be a sticker with something like this "Made In the USA By Eminence".
It should also have a part number listed.

Here is a shot of my Dayton 15" DVC (aka Adire Audio Tempest clone) which is an Eminence driver:
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc41/mynym/BFM%20Tuba%20HT/IMG_5693.jpg

From the little that I understand, the driver in the original MFW's was stated to be a custom fabrication from Emminence. Custom in what sense, I don't know. People that I've spoken with have stated that when they examined the driver, they found no markings which would aid in identification. AV123 has also stated that there was no guarantee that future incarnations would necessarily use the same driver implying to me that they would likely be sourcing 'equivalent' drivers from asian producers. Whether that has happened, I don't know.

Curtis....I did talk to Eminence. They referred me back to AV123 for replacement drivers. I don't get the feeling they do direct sales (could be wrong on that count, as I didn't ask them that question directly).

What was clear, as you would expect, they are very proud of their products, however.

The only thing they did divulge is that they have several OEM customers.

I don't know what a replacement driver would cost. You can go to some resellers who handle Eminence, though.

I'm assuming that Mark Seaton spec'd the driver from them.

I guess if you wanted to "tweak" the sub, you could actually try a different 15" driver from a place like Parts Express. But, then you'd probably be changing the performance parameters that Mark Seaton set forth by doing so.

AV123 should have replacement drivers, and as they stated, Eminence only sells through distribution (stock parts) and OEM, which is why AV123 is where service requests should be directed. As an example, the DVC15 from PE is a custom driver for PE. Yes, the frame and cone is similar, but different in all other aspects.

Drivers from Eminence are all marked either on the magnet or on the inside of the basket. I believe most of the MFW-15 drivers are marked with the Eminence OEM/custom ID under the rubber boot on the magnet.

I have had zero failures in the field with the Eminence built driver (obviously much more expensive) used in my SubMersive. A few have been rejected at basic points of QC before shipping, but very small percentage and almost entirely eliminated in later batches. Eminence is an exceptionally responsive supplier. They aren't set up for the crazy exotic drivers (yet) but if it fits their production and parts capability, they deliver very reliably and always timely.

Back to the regularly scheduled programming... :rolleyes:

Curtis....I did talk to Eminence. They referred me back to AV123 for replacement drivers. I don't get the feeling they do direct sales (could be wrong on that count, as I didn't ask them that question directly).
Did you call because your driver went bad? Did you ask if they supplied the drivers to AV123?

Eminence drivers are all built in the USA?

Are the drivers for the MFW installed here in the States, or in Colombia?

Well, I just go off the phone with Kyle at AV123. He put in a request to have a new driver sent to me within the next day or two. We both reached the same conclusion - bad voice-coil. I will let you all know how this turns out. FWIW, my customer service experience with AV123 thus far has been exemplary.

John

Well, I just go off the phone with Kyle at AV123. He put in a request to have a new driver sent to me within the next day or two. We both reached the same conclusion - bad voice-coil. I will let you all know how this turns out. FWIW, my customer service experience with AV123 thus far has been exemplary.

John

Good to hear. Let us know when you get the new driver and if it fixes your issue.

Well, I just go off the phone with Kyle at AV123. He put in a request to have a new driver sent to me within the next day or two. We both reached the same conclusion - bad voice-coil. I will let you all know how this turns out. FWIW, my customer service experience with AV123 thus far has been exemplary.

John

John there was a thread in the past that had detailed pictures of the driver, can you post some when you replace yours?

I have spent enough time with it including removing the driver and resetting it. There is no question it is a faulty driver. I have no idea when it started, but my guess it has been around since the beginning. To be honest I have really never been impressed with this sub and now I think I know why. I wonder what the chances are I will be able to get this fixed under warranty? My guess is AV123 will never return my phone calls or email. Anyone know where you can get another driver? Would this be worth doing? Also, I do not have sodering Iron. how do I get the leads reattached?

Thanks to everyone for their help.

John

I am glad that you are getting a replacement driver. I know that I would be tempted to ask if it is an exact replacement, (the one manufactured by Emminence), and if it is going to be brand new (not salvaged from some reject that will end up being sold as B-Stock).

It's a shame that all the problems with this subwoofer cause people get to the point where they doubt that AV123 is even going to bother to try to help them.

Part of that is the extended silence on the AV123 Forum.

I share your concern about a soldering iron. You should NOT have to purchase a soldering iron (or anything else) to get your driver replaced. Not only that, there are inevitably going to be people who end up with a cold (solder joint), this means trouble.

If you read about the Hot Rod options, you will get some idea how MLS and his minions came up with a replacement option for people who don't want to take on the job installing the Hot Rod components. Find the page with the Hot Rod Upgrade Pre-Order on it.

Scroll down until you see the 4 different choices ranging in price from no cost (except you must sign a Liability Release). The problem with this is if you make some kind of mistake you are SOL.

The other 3 options cost from $79 to $299 dollars. For your $300 AV123 takes care of everything including shipping.

If you can't find the page, you might ask someone at AV123 why one can't post a link to that page.

I am glad that you are getting a replacement driver. I know that I would be tempted to ask if it is an exact replacement, (the one manufactured by Emminence), and if it is going to be brand new (not salvaged from some reject that will end up being sold as B-Stock).

It's a shame that all the problems with this subwoofer cause people get to the point where they doubt that AV123 is even going to bother to try to help them.

Part of that is the extended silence on the AV123 Forum.

I share your concern about a soldering iron. You should NOT have to purchase a soldering iron (or anything else) to get your driver replaced. Not only that, there are inevitably going to be people who end up with a cold (solder joint), this means trouble.





If you read about the Hot Rod options, you will get some idea how MLS and his minions came up with a replacement option for people who don't want to take on the job installing the Hot Rod components. Find the page with the Hot Rod Upgrade Pre-Order on it.

Scroll down until you see the 4 different choices ranging in price from no cost (except you must sign a Liability Release). The problem with this is if you make some kind of mistake you are SOL.

The other 3 options cost from $79 to $299 dollars. For your $300 AV123 takes care of everything including shipping.

If you can't find the page, you might ask someone at AV123 why one can't post a link to that page.

Spyboy:

I asked about the soldering. They are sending me a replacement driver with leads attached that will tie into the leads from my amplifier. My guess is, I'll be using electical caps or something similar to connect the bare wire ends. I told them I wanted a total solution that would not have the potential for introducing noise. Kyle said this solution would work as new.

Best,

John

From the little that I understand, the driver in the original MFW's was stated to be a custom fabrication from Emminence. Custom in what sense, I don't know. People that I've spoken with have stated that when they examined the driver, they found no markings which would aid in identification. AV123 has also stated that there was no guarantee that future incarnations would necessarily use the same driver implying to me that they would likely be sourcing 'equivalent' drivers from asian producers. Whether that has happened, I don't know.

Pertinent parts of the post bolded.

Bosso

Pertinent parts of the post bolded.

Bosso

Ahh, come on. Those all sound like solid, documented facts to me. :rolleyes: :D

Pertinent parts of the post bolded.

BossoI'd appreciate any correction that you can provide on what I wrote.

I'd appreciate any correction that you can provide on what I wrote.

That's too easy Chu - you didn't really say anything. Random speculative speculation with no facts or substance.

Pertinent parts of the post bolded.

Bosso

I'd appreciate any correction that you can provide on what I wrote.

It requires clarification not correction. The post is 99% guesswork.

So, Seaton didn't spec out a custom Eminence driver for the MFW?
AV123 is obligated to only use an Eminence driver in the product?

Show me the 99% that's guesswork.

So, Seaton didn't spec out a custom Eminence driver for the MFW?
AV123 is obligated to only use an Eminence driver in the product?

Show me the 99% that's guesswork.

It is a 99% factless guess that AV123 is no longer using the Eminence driver specified by Seaton in their MFW-15 subwoofer. Rumours and speculation trying to convince people that the MFW-15 is using a cheap driver. Its a useless post that proves nothing and serves no purpose in this thread.

This thread is really about a MFW-15 owner with driver issues and AV123 giving him great customer service with a replacement driver. :D

I didn't say they weren't using the Eminence driver. I said they're under no obligation to do so. That was something I recall reading in their forum. An individual who PM'd me said he didn't see any identifying markings on the driver. Perhaps the person who receives the driver will be able to do a careful examination and see if any markings are present as per Mark Seaton.

AV123 should have replacement drivers, and as they stated, Eminence only sells through distribution (stock parts) and OEM, which is why AV123 is where service requests should be directed. As an example, the DVC15 from PE is a custom driver for PE. Yes, the frame and cone is similar, but different in all other aspects.

Drivers from Eminence are all marked either on the magnet or on the inside of the basket. I believe most of the MFW-15 drivers are marked with the Eminence OEM/custom ID under the rubber boot on the magnet.

I have had zero failures in the field with the Eminence built driver (obviously much more expensive) used in my SubMersive. A few have been rejected at basic points of QC before shipping, but very small percentage and almost entirely eliminated in later batches. Eminence is an exceptionally responsive supplier. They aren't set up for the crazy exotic drivers (yet) but if it fits their production and parts capability, they deliver very reliably and always timely.

Back to the regularly scheduled programming... :rolleyes:


Thanks Mark!

Your works is, as always greatly appreciated. I aspire to your SUBMERSIVE. I love all of your designs!!!!!!!!:D

Curtis....no reason to contact Eminence other than to satisfy my own curiosity. My driver's great.

Thanks Mark!

Your works is, as always greatly appreciated. I aspire to your SUBMERSIVE. I love all of your designs!!!!!!!!:D
No slight to MS intended whatsoever, but have you ever wondered why some have called you a fanboy?:p

This thread is really about a MFW-15 owner with driver issues and AV123 giving him great customer service with a replacement driver. :D
Well, it did morph somewhat when the quality of the driver was called into question.
They've freely sent out replacement drivers whenever someone has asked, so maybe that $20 remark was closer to the truth than I originally thought...:o

No slight to MS intended whatsoever, but have you ever wondered why some have called you a fanboy?:p

Nope, never wondered, nor cared. I've been called much worse.

I am a fan of Mark Seaton's designs. I certainly like my MFW. I like what I've seen/read about Mark's Submersive. Very interested in what he's doing for Tweak City and Craig.

As Mark stated, the MFW uses Eminence drivers. He also said they are a quality driver supplier. Eminence drivers have rarely failed. I don't know how much clearer the point can be made, by the designer himself.

Did you call because your driver went bad? Did you ask if they supplied the drivers to AV123?

Eminence drivers are all built in the USA?

Are the drivers for the MFW installed here in the States, or in Colombia?

Curtis....you might want to give this link a look.

http://www.eminence.com/news/news3.asp

Not specifically about their component engineering. But, a bit of insight to how they approach (and the talent they utilize) in designing their products.

MS said the drivers used in his offering, the Submersive, have not failed in the field. He said nothing about those in the MFW.

Chu.....I've seen little in the way of evidence (except the one posted here) that the Eminence drivers are failing in the MFW. I was speaking more to Eminence as a company that provides quality drivers. Which, from what I can tell, they do.....whether they be for OEMs (which they clearly state is an important part of their business), or those they self-brand and sell via VARs and distributors.

Are you looking for a reason to slam Eminence's products? If so, looks to me like that's going to be a very tough slog.

OT, but I've always been sincerely curious as to what HT gear you own.

MS said the driver he uses from Eminence is considerably more expensive. It is perhaps the expense and other factors that contribute to his stating it's durable. 'Course, we don't know how big the user base is though. Now, MS has also said the Eminence driver used in the MFW is a custom job but I've never heard him elaborate just how it's custom. It's less expensive by inference so maybe that also translates to durability. I only know that more than one person has replaced their driver. Now, maybe that can be attributed solely to the driver or maybe it can be attributed more to malfunctioning amps. So while Eminence does appear to be a decent enough company, if you give them a design and a price point to hit it's not unreasonable to think if the price point is low enough there are going to be compromises, no?

Curtis....you might want to give this link a look.

http://www.eminence.com/news/news3.asp

Not specifically about their component engineering. But, a bit of insight to how they approach (and the talent they utilize) in designing their products.
Thanks, but it doesn't seem to answer my questions.

MS said the driver he uses from Eminence is considerably more expensive. It is perhaps the expense and other factors that contribute to his stating it's durable. 'Course, we don't know how big the user base is though. Now, MS has also said the Eminence driver used in the MFW is a custom job but I've never heard him elaborate just how it's custom. It's less expensive by inference so maybe that also translates to durability. I only know that more than one person has replaced their driver. Now, maybe that can be attributed solely to the driver or maybe it can be attributed more to malfunctioning amps. So while Eminence does appear to be a decent enough company, if you give them a design and a price point to hit it's not unreasonable to think if the price point is low enough there are going to be compromises, no?

Very few people have complained of driver issues. It's obvious to most I think, that for a subwoofer (or any product) to meet a specific price point the lower priced product will have more compromises than more expensive product (generally speaking).

It's a fair assumption the Submersive uses a more expensive driver, even if MS didn't chime in to state that it was. Because the MFW uses a less expensive driver does not mean it will have a higher failure rate or even a lower one. We can all agree I think that Eminence makes a fine subwoofer and that the one used (so far) has met all expectations.

Like everything with the MFW we'll have to wait and see, if someone gets a different driver and notices it, I'm sure we'll hear about it.

MS said the driver he uses from Eminence is considerably more expensive. It is perhaps the expense and other factors that contribute to his stating it's durable. 'Course, we don't know how big the user base is though. Now, MS has also said the Eminence driver used in the MFW is a custom job but I've never heard him elaborate just how it's custom. It's less expensive by inference so maybe that also translates to durability. I only know that more than one person has replaced their driver. Now, maybe that can be attributed solely to the driver or maybe it can be attributed more to malfunctioning amps. So while Eminence does appear to be a decent enough company, if you give them a design and a price point to hit it's not unreasonable to think if the price point is low enough there are going to be compromises, no?

Or we could just take it for what it is and say that a driver built to go in a $2000 subwoofer is going to be better and more expensive than a driver built to go into a sub roughly 1/3 the price. Nothing more, nothing less. Seems natural and logical for any product.

I didn't say they weren't using the Eminence driver. I said they're under no obligation to do so. That was something I recall reading in their forum. An individual who PM'd me said he didn't see any identifying markings on the driver. Perhaps the person who receives the driver will be able to do a careful examination and see if any markings are present as per Mark Seaton.

There were no markings at all on the driver I removed or the driver I replaced it with albeit I didn't remove the rubber ring around the voice coil to look. Both sides of the basket and all exterior parts that are visible to the naked eye (sans taking the thing apart) are without any markings whatsoever.

Thanks, but it doesn't seem to answer my questions.

Curtis...I'm guess here based on reading through Eminence's WEB site, but it looks to me like they may be OEMing not only their drivers, but complete speakers. They, I would imagine they're sending their drivers, and spec-ing complete speakers to be assembled in China. I can only guess, but I'll assume that these completed speakers (they do more than just woofers) are then rebranded by whomever wants them.

As far as the MFW is concerned, I believe the cabinets are still made in Cali. The driver sourced from Eminence as a custom unit spec'd by Mark Seaton. The new amp, I'm not sure. After Doug Goldberg did the redesign on the amp, I've not followed closely enough to know where final assembly takes place....other than to see one of the new components in a pic from CO, posted by MLS a couple of weeks ago.

Spyboy:

I asked about the soldering. They are sending me a replacement driver with leads attached that will tie into the leads from my amplifier. My guess is, I'll be using electical caps or something similar to connect the bare wire ends. I told them I wanted a total solution that would not have the potential for introducing noise. Kyle said this solution would work as new.

Best,

John

John,

One of my two mfw's started making a knocking noise which would come and go, and the noise appeared at progressively lower volumes over a period of a couple days. Then the amp died. I could find no damage on the driver. I don't know if I missed the damage, or if the amp was sending out poor signal before it died, somehow causing the speaker to make that sound. I suppose I will know once I receive my replacement amps.

Good luck.

UPDATE - My new driver was sent out yesterday. So far, so good!

If you remember, could you please examine both to the best of your ability to see if there are any differences as well as trying to determine, as per Mark Seaton's comments, if there are any identifying markings?

Thanks, and best of luck there!

UPDATE - My new driver was sent out yesterday. So far, so good!
Did you get a tracking number?

You should know by now that the driver, which is on the North Korean ship being shadowed by the US Navy, won't release tracking numbers!

I got the new driver and here are my findings:

1. First of all the packaging job was inadequate. The front of the driver was coating with dust and debris and it was not wrapped. It was put in the box with a piece of cardboard over it and was naked otherwise. It was cushioned by some foam on the bottom and sides.

2. There were no directions or any connectors provided. There were bare-wire leads (I asked for leads as I have no way of soldering) to the driver and nothing else. I could not tell if the driver has been used before, but it wouldn't suprise me if it was pulled from a return or B-stock.

3. The driver appeared to be exactly the same as the one removed. neither had markings on them and all materials seemed to be indentical.

4. Installation was fairly simple, but as I said, I had to use my own materials to connect the sets of leads (I used electrical tape).

5. Testing with the same media used with the old driver yielded better results, but this driver still rattles and again has similar issues with bass below a certain frequency and above a certain volume (-10 from reference seemed to be the starting point).

6. I am not sure, but I will probably give this driver some time to break in and see if it gets better. if it doesn't I will probably try another one (if possible).

So here are my marks for customer service from AV123 on my MFW-15:

Initial Communication: A-
Speed of Response: A+
Quality of packaging: C-
Quality of information included with replacement driver - F (there was none).
Quality of replacement driver - D Currently, but unknown at this point. I am thinking I will be requesting another driver.

Look under the rubber boot. Any info there?

4. Installation was fairly simple, but as I said, I had to use my own materials to connect the sets of leads (I used electrical tape).


Sorry to hear of your troubles - you should definitely contact av123 and let them know directly how this has worked out and see what else they can do to resolve this.

You need something more than electrical tape connecting the leads. av123 should be able to make a recommendation - personally I would go to any hardware store and get some "wire nuts" of the correct size for whatever size the wire is.

I got the new driver and here are my findings:

1. First of all the packaging job was inadequate. The front of the driver was coating with dust and debris and it was not wrapped. It was put in the box with a piece of cardboard over it and was naked otherwise. It was cushioned by some foam on the bottom and sides.

2. There were no directions or any connectors provided. There were bare-wire leads (I asked for leads as I have no way of soldering) to the driver and nothing else. I could not tell if the driver has been used before, but it wouldn't suprise me if it was pulled from a return or B-stock.

3. The driver appeared to be exactly the same as the one removed. neither had markings on them and all materials seemed to be indentical.

4. Installation was fairly simple, but as I said, I had to use my own materials to connect the sets of leads (I used electrical tape).

5. Testing with the same media used with the old driver yielded better results, but this driver still rattles and again has similar issues with bass below a certain frequency and above a certain volume (-10 from reference seemed to be the starting point).

6. I am not sure, but I will probably give this driver some time to break in and see if it gets better. if it doesn't I will probably try another one (if possible).

So here are my marks for customer service from AV123 on my MFW-15:

Initial Communication: A-
Speed of Response: A+
Quality of packaging: C-
Quality of information included with replacement driver - F (there was none).
Quality of replacement driver - D Currently, but unknown at this point. I am thinking I will be requesting another driver.


Could you remind us again how you determined the driver was rattling in the first place (and again this time)? Are you sure it's not something in your room that is vibrating only at a certain level of output from the sub? Could it be something in the cabinet or the cabinet itself? It seems very odd that you are getting the same response as before so I am just making sure that you have eliminated other possible sources of the vibration.

MarkG

I just noticed the same thing, just got a new replacement amp and now I am just noticing that the subwoofer bottoms out easily when it is turned up. Granted I do need to push it hard to get it to fill the room. Currently I have it placed in the corner facing diagonally to the middle of seating. I never noticed this much bottoming out before the new amp was installed, maybe the new one doesn't need to be turned up as loud? Also if I pull it out of the corner my bass is almost non-existent. It is setup in a room about 6000 cu/ft. which is quite large for one subwoofer. Here are my settings:

Onkyo 605: Subwoofer crossover is at 100hz
Gain is set at 11:30
Receiver subwoofer level is set at 0
Front Speaker set at 80hz
Center set at 80hz

When volume leve reaches 75 on the receiver and the bass is loud, the driver bottoms out. If I turn the sub up past 12 gain, the rattling begins at about 70. Anything past 12 at volume level 70 bottoms out big time when big bass scenes are present. I don't know if this is a driver problem I just didnt' notice at first or if the size of my room just pushes this subwoofer way past its limits. Any thoughts?

I just noticed the same thing, just got a new replacement amp and now I am just noticing that the subwoofer bottoms out easily when it is turned up. Granted I do need to push it hard to get it to fill the room. Currently I have it placed in the corner facing diagonally to the middle of seating. I never noticed this much bottoming out before the new amp was installed, maybe the new one doesn't need to be turned up as loud? Also if I pull it out of the corner my bass is almost non-existent. It is setup in a room about 6000 cu/ft. which is quite large for one subwoofer. Here are my settings:

Onkyo 605: Subwoofer crossover is at 100hz
Gain is set at 11:30
Receiver subwoofer level is set at 0
Front Speaker set at 80hz
Center set at 80hz

When volume leve reaches 75 on the receiver and the bass is loud, the driver bottoms out. If I turn the sub up past 12 gain, the rattling begins at about 70. Anything past 12 at volume level 70 bottoms out big time when big bass scenes are present. I don't know if this is a driver problem I just didnt' notice at first or if the size of my room just pushes this subwoofer way past its limits. Any thoughts?

My guess would be that the room is a bit much for one sub. I also can bottom mine out with the gain set up above 12 - but of course, it's WAY too loud at that volume anyway.

A better indicator might be to measure the SPL of the sub at 1meter and seating position - to see how much you are actually pushing it.

Just wondering out loud here, but for those that have an issue that cropped up after installing a new amp, could it be the wiring issue that Kyle mentioned here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16837330#post16837330)?

I just noticed the same thing, just got a new replacement amp and now I am just noticing that the subwoofer bottoms out easily when it is turned up. Granted I do need to push it hard to get it to fill the room. Currently I have it placed in the corner facing diagonally to the middle of seating. I never noticed this much bottoming out before the new amp was installed, maybe the new one doesn't need to be turned up as loud? Also if I pull it out of the corner my bass is almost non-existent. It is setup in a room about 6000 cu/ft. which is quite large for one subwoofer. Here are my settings:

Onkyo 605: Subwoofer crossover is at 100hz
Gain is set at 11:30
Receiver subwoofer level is set at 0
Front Speaker set at 80hz
Center set at 80hz

When volume leve reaches 75 on the receiver and the bass is loud, the driver bottoms out. If I turn the sub up past 12 gain, the rattling begins at about 70. Anything past 12 at volume level 70 bottoms out big time when big bass scenes are present. I don't know if this is a driver problem I just didnt' notice at first or if the size of my room just pushes this subwoofer way past its limits. Any thoughts?

sounds about right, what you are going to get out of that unit.

Based on what I get out of mine in a 2200 cu ft room..

Since you guys are mostly owners of this unit perhaps you can help me. I just received a new MFW-15 and unfortunately there is some shipping damage (already contacted AV123 about it and I am confident that we will reach a satsifactory resolution). In addition to the cosmetics, however, is some operational problems - i.e., it doesn't work. I get power to it, and the status light goes from red to green from off-auto-on, etc., but I get no sound. I have played with phase, gain, inputs (LFE or L or R) for my subwoofer cable from the receiver, but I still get nothing. I have played with the speaker setup/crossover from the receiver but it yields nothing. I switched back in my previous sub and under the same conditions from the receiver, etc. I do get sound.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

MarkG

yukiginger, you should send it back. If it was damaged in shipping, it has external damage. If it also doesn't work, it has internal damage too. It shouldn't be your problem to make it work. You paid $100 for shipping, so you are entitled to redress. Complain to av123; UPS will send an inspector and make good. Neither you nor AV123 should be liable for shipping damage.

=======================

I just got a new MFW-15 from what was supposed to be a new manufacturing run. It didn't even come with a manual and when I emailed AV123, they told me the final manual wasn't completed as yet - which I view as odd. How hard is it to update the old manual or use one of the other manuals as a model to write a new one?

Anyway, some here have written about spikes (feet). Mine did not have any. Are they supposed to?

Also, I am at a loss as to the proper initial installation and setup. I'm using a Denon 3808ci as the source, which has a sub-out jack. I presume that I plug that into the LFE RCA connector on the MFW-15. I plan to perform a new Audyssey setup from the Denon but wanted to know what the initial settings should be before I perform that setup (e.g. should the knobs be at max, min, or zero).

yukiginger, you should send it back. If it was damaged in shipping, it has external damage. If it also doesn't work, it has internal damage too. It shouldn't be your problem to make it work.

I just got a new MFW-15 from what was supposed to be a new manufacturing run. It didn't even come with a manual and when I emailed AV123, they told me the final manual wasn't completed as yet - which I view as odd.

Anyway, some here have written about spikes (feet). Mine did not have any. Are they supposed to?

Also, I am at a loss as to the proper initial installation and setup. I'm using a Denon 3808ci as the source, which has a sub-out jack. I presume that I plug that into the LFE RCA connector on the MFW-15. I plan to perform a new Audyssey setup from the Denon but wanted to know what the initial settings should be before I perform that setup (e.g. should the knobs be at max, min, or zero).


MTAtech, thanks for the reply. I will see how they respond. I do not look forward to boxing it back up and getting it out of my basement!

As to your hookup guess I believe this is correct. I just recently ran Audyssey setup on my system (using my other sub) and set the gain at half per a thread here on this site (search for Audyssey setup). There is a good guide put together by a forum member. One thing I had to do, however, was go back and set my speakers to small in my initial speaker setup; otherwise for most processing (stereo or surround modes) the receiver (Marantz) wasn't sending a signal to the sub. I thought this was odd, but the only time I could get a signal to the sub was in movie modes or multichannel music. I believe the issue was the speaker size settings and perhaps the crossover setting which I also adjusted.

MarkG

MTAtech, thanks for the reply. I will see how they respond. I do not look forward to boxing it back up and getting it out of my basement! ...
MarkGI appreciate not wanting to box it up again. UPS left mine outside of the garage because he didn't want to lug it up the front steps. It took my wife and I to get it inside.

Anyway, before you box it up, call AV123 (you may also want to call UPS too) and see what the procedure is. I'd hate to have you box it only to have to unbox it to show the inspector.

A number of years ago, I receive a $4,000 pre-amp from a friend that arrived severely damaged (it looked like a rod or bullet went through the box.) UPS made good.

Thanks for the setup advice. I'll search now.

I forgot to add, too, that mine did not come with a manual or spikes, which does strike me as odd. I forgot to mention this to the rep. I spoke with yesterday. I will see what they say on my next contact.

MarkG

I emailed both my rep and product support. I think they're on the west coast and won't see my email until they're in the office. You would think also think that if the manual was not available, they'd put a photocopied sheet saying so, just to avoid all the communications. I really don't get it. A manual for a sub can't be more than a few pages long. I can write a professional one in a few days, with graphics.

Also, I am at a loss as to the proper initial installation and setup. I'm using a Denon 3808ci as the source, which has a sub-out jack. I presume that I plug that into the LFE RCA connector on the MFW-15. I plan to perform a new Audyssey setup from the Denon but wanted to know what the initial settings should be before I perform that setup (e.g. should the knobs be at max, min, or zero).

Initial set up will be similar as with any sub. If you are running a single sub and using Audyssey MultEq or MultEq XT, leave the phase control at zero as Audyssey will adjust phase for the sub in its calculations. Run the signal cable from your LFE (SUB) out on your AVR or pre/pro to the LFE in as that bypasses the internal crossover (thus ignoring any setting the freq knob is at so its position is irrelevant). For gain control that will depend on room, set up and location but will frequently be in the 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock positions. You will want Audyssey to set the sub level between -3 to 0 as that can help keep the LFE signal from being clipped from the AVR. An easy way to do this is to start the Audyessey calibration process, run it through its first sweep (first set of test tones) only, after the first sweep see where Audyssey set your sub level, if it is in the positives you can slightly increase the gain setting, if Audyssey is showing it is -4 or numerically lower you should lower the gain setting on the sub.

As for the rest of the set up process, it will depend on the end users room, tastes and equipment but frequently you will want to go into the settings after Audyssey has completed set up: change your speakers to "Small", set a crossover point (THX rec's 80 Hz, several studies have shown this to be a pretty good starting point for most systems), change your LFE to 120 HZ (different than the speaker crossover). The Audyssey thread has many valuable posts in regards to getting the best results from the set up process, these are all just high level overview starter points.

The set up issue grows more complicated if you are running multiple subs, more so still if they are not collocated as you are now dealing with phase, time and level/gain matching questions that are frequently not set up in an Auto setup program.

My guess would be that the room is a bit much for one sub. I also can bottom mine out with the gain set up above 12 - but of course, it's WAY too loud at that volume anyway.

A better indicator might be to measure the SPL of the sub at 1meter and seating position - to see how much you are actually pushing it.


True. I guess I'm expecting too much from a sub at that room size, although it does impress most people that hear it. I just need a smaller room I guess, but I will measure at 1meter and see what I get.

Thanks Snowmanick for the help.