I currently own a paradigm PW-2100 sub but I am looking to ugrade to the SUB-12. For me to even consider buying this sub, it would have to completetly dominate the PW-2100 in SQ and in output, because its going to cost me $2,300 if I get it. I did consider the SVS PB12-plus, but I don't have a credit card and it would take a while for me to get my credit card limit up to $2,000. So, that being said, should I go for the SUB-12 or wait it out for the PB12-plus? My system is used 50/50 for both music and HT.

Are you in Canada? That sounds like a Canadian price for the Sub 12. I feel bad for you, because I picked up my Sub 12 for WAY less than that.

Anyway, the Sub 12 is a BEAST in my 12x11x7.5 room. But, I've never heard the PW-2100 or PB12-plus. I have heard the PW-2200 many times though, and the Sub 12 is at a whole other level.

For that price, why not get the PB13-Ultra? It's available in Canada for about $2200 tax in and will outperform the PW-2100 by a long mile, and likely the Sub-12 (though I haven't heard it so can't comment, other than to say I've heard the Servo-15 v2 in my room and the PB13 outperformed that).

If you don't have a credit card, can you buy a Visa gift card and pay online with that with SVS (or another sub vendor)?

For that price, why not get the PB13-Ultra? It's available in Canada for about $2200 tax in and will outperform the PW-2100 by a long mile, and likely the Sub-12 (though I haven't heard it so can't comment, other than to say I've heard the Servo-15 v2 in my room and the PB13 outperformed that).

Outperformed the Servo-15 in what way? There is more to a sub than just pure SPL's. People put way to much emphasis on raw output around here, and not nearly enough on the sound quality of these subs. Not all rooms are created equal, so basically, a PB13 may not always be the best choice, unless your goal is to make ears bleed.

The PB13-U has very good SQ, not just raw SPL. IDK if the previous post was trying to claim the PB13-U was just an SPL machine or not, and I am not trying to read anything into it, I just wanted to make sure no misconceptions were bandied about.

As for the CC issue, I'd second the recommendation of a Visa Gift Card or see if SVS can take any other forms of payment. It won't make your decisoin for you but can open up more possibilities.

We listened to the PB13, DD18, Servo-15 v2 and Fathom F113 (5 or 6 of us) in my family room last November. The DD18 had some setup issues, but the Fathom and PB13 both out performed the Servo 15 in terms of sound quality (we didn't measure SPL). The Servo sounded great, don't get me wrong, and anyone would be happy with it as their main sub. Just saying all in attendance were more impressed with the PB13 and F113, FWIW. Well, until the amp crapped out on my Pb13 (this was before SVS fixed their amp issue).

Same people (+ 2 others) tested the F113, PB13, EP600, and DD18 again in a dedicated home theater. Again, the PB13 was for the most part chosen as number 1 in terms of HT and a very close second to the F113 for music. The V2 was not retested (it was a demo sub from a dealer and we couldn't get it again).

Oh, and no one's ear's were bleeding during either of these tests. ;)

thanks for your inputs guys, do any of you know how this visa gift card works or if its even offered in canada, I know this forum is for questions on subs but I'm just curious.

Since you are in Canada consider getting Nathan to build you a box vesion of this: http://www.funkywaves.net/catalog.cfm?item=fw_15_1

I have the tube version and even with shipping to NS and HST I was much closer to $1500 than 2,000. They can build the box custom dimensions and they can do diferent finishes than simple black if you want to pay a bit more. I have not had PB 13 Ultra next to my FW 15.1 for side by side comparison but I have yet to have anyone not be impressed by it.

They also take other forms of payment than Visa. I did mine by Online Banking email transfer. As long as you have the cash in the bank you are good to go.

Snowmanick/pbc,

I'm not trying to discredit the sound quality of the PB13 in any way at all. Actually, I haven't even heard one yet. However, you would think that the PB13 is the only decent sub under 2K if you took this forum as gospel.

pbc,

I got a little aggrevated with your post because you said you haven't even heard the Sub 12, but yet your conclusion was that the PB13 would likely be the better sub, simply because you liked it better than the Servo-15 v2.:confused: The only safe assumption you can make without actually hearing the Sub 12 is that the PB13 will likely have more raw output, which only makes sense given the PB13 is a much larger ported design. It's all good though...;) Given the high praise the PB13 keeps getting around here, I'd love to hear one. Anyone one in my neck of the woods got one?:D

The Sub 12 is the finest sounding sub I've had the pleasure of sharing a room with, and I've heard more than a handfull of higher end models. That's not to say it's the best sub out there, or the best value, and I have yet to even hear any ID subs. Having said that, it is still a very high quality product in my view.

Thanks toolatecrew I will definitly keep that option in mind.

BRAC, how much did you pay for your sub-12 over in the states?

pbc,

I got a little aggrevated with your post because you said you haven't even heard the Sub 12, but yet your conclusion was that the PB13 would likely be the better sub, simply because you liked it better than the Servo-15 v2.:confused: The only safe assumption you can make without actually hearing the Sub 12 is that the PB13 will likely have more raw output, which only makes sense given the PB13 is a much larger ported design. It's all good though...;) Given the high praise the PB13 keeps getting around here, I'd love to hear one. Anyone one in my neck of the woods got one?:D

The Sub 12 is the finest sounding sub I've had the pleasure of sharing a room with, and I've heard more than a handfull of higher end models. That's not to say it's the best sub out there, or the best value, and I have yet to even hear any ID subs. Having said that, it is still a very high quality product in my view.

I think pbc made a very safe assumption that the PB13 is better than the Sub 12. The Servo v2 was Paradigm's finest sub before the Sub 25 replaced it. Considering that the PB13 easily bested their old top model, and the Sub 12 is currently "only" the 3rd best sub in Paradigm's lineup (behind the Sub 15 and Sub 25), it is a fair assumption that the PB13 is better than the Sub 12.

I think pbc made a very safe assumption that the PB13 is better than the Sub 12. The Servo v2 was Paradigm's finest sub before the Sub 25 replaced it. Considering that the PB13 easily bested their old top model, and the Sub 12 is currently "only" the 3rd best sub in Paradigm's lineup (behind the Sub 15 and Sub 25), it is a fair assumption that the PB13 is better than the Sub 12.
The Servo-15 V2 is NOT the same as a SUB 12...

His assumption would likely only be accurate for raw output ALONE. Your reasoning is very amusing though. For pure sound quality neither you or pbc would have a clue, unless you heard them both in the same room, with the same source, and the same material. Bottom line, they are very different animals.

I won't take too much of what you say seriously though, because judging by your pervious posts you are basically SVS's biggest fanboy.

BRAC, how much did you pay for your sub-12 over in the states?

PM sent...

thanks for your inputs guys, do any of you know how this visa gift card works or if its even offered in canada, I know this forum is for questions on subs but I'm just curious.

I know in the states all you have to do is purchase a Visa gift card for the amount (and probably a little more and a bank is probably you best bet) and then register the card at Visa (you can do this online or over the phone I believe). Then you should be able to purcahse online with no problem. I would visit visa's website and see what stipulations they have in Canada, but I have done this in the States and have not had issues.

I won't take too much of what you say seriously though, because judging by your pervious posts you are basically SVS's biggest fanboy.

Brac read up on some old post by chengbin. He is not a fanboy, he is just expressing his opinions. He just regurgitates what he reads here on the forum. He stated as fact, oops I mean, opinion just a week ago that the HSU ULS-15 will not work in HT but they are some of the cleanest, tightest, acurate subs I have ever owned. Scrolling back farther into his posts he actually recommended the HSU's. He doesn't even own a sub that I am able to find so we must ignore his future posts until he a) actually owns a subwoofer or b) has a disclaimer in his signature that he is stating his opinion not facts.

Brac read up on some old post by chengbin. He is not a fanboy, he is just expressing his opinions. He just regurgitates what he reads here on the forum. He stated as fact, oops I mean, opinion just a week ago that the HSU ULS-15 will not work in HT but they are some of the cleanest, tightest, acurate subs I have ever owned. Scrolling back farther into his posts he actually recommended the HSU's. He doesn't even own a sub that I am able to find so we must ignore his future posts until he a) actually owns a subwoofer or b) has a disclaimer in his signature that he is stating his opinion not facts.

Yes, I was probably a little too harsh there, but I hate it when people try and advise others about products they have zero experience with. Opinions are fine and all, but I'm sure the op would like to hear from people who have actually heard the Sub 12. It would be like me saying, "go for the Sub 12 because the JL 113 sounds better than the PB13 and it is a sealed unit, so the sealed Sub 12 should sound better as well". That would be a pretty bold statement even if I had heard all the above mentioned, now imagine if I had only heard one or none of the three.:rolleyes: