Perhaps someone far more technologically sophisticated than I can answer this question....

Whatever happened to the cable cards, which were supposed to replace the boxes -- and make life less complicated for viewers?

Weren't they mandated years ago?

You can still get a Cablecard from the cable company, but they've found ways to make them less than enjoyable. No VOD, some cable cards don't pair well with Tivos, etc. In the end, they still get ya to rent a box.

Perhaps someone far more technologically sophisticated than I can answer this question....

Whatever happened to the cable cards, which were supposed to replace the boxes -- and make life less complicated for viewers?

Weren't they mandated years ago?


They are available, multi-stream ones have been available for a while too. The HD Tivo takes them and all of the large cable companies will give you a tuning adapter to use with the Tivo to tune in switched digital video channels. The MOXI HD DVR takes them too.

Finding a TV that takes a cable cards is another story. Tru2way http://www.tru2way.com/ will be the standard for many of the new TV's released later this year which will eliminate the need for a cable box.

Thanks RemyM.

They are available, multi-stream ones have been available for a while too. The HD Tivo takes them and all of the large cable companies will give you a tuning adapter to use with the Tivo to tune in switched digital video channels. The MOXI HD DVR takes them too.

Finding a TV that takes a cable cards is another story. Tru2way http://www.tru2way.com/ will be the standard for many of the new TV's released later this year which will eliminate the need for a cable box.

my Pioneer 5010 has a cablecard slot, but I can't live without my Tivo :)

my Pioneer 5010 has a cablecard slot, but I can't live without my Tivo :)

I have both. The cable card in the TV gives me an option to watch TV when Tivo is recording two programs.

I have both. The cable card in the TV gives me an option to watch TV when Tivo is recording two programs.

yeah, but I have two HDTV's with TivoHD's on them. 4 tuners is enough for me :)

I have both. The cable card in the TV gives me an option to watch TV when Tivo is recording two programs.

AND try and find a new TYV today that HAS a cable card slot. I don't think Sony, Samsung, Toshiba or any of them have any current TVs with cable card slots.

AND try and find a new TYV today that HAS a cable card slot. I don't think Sony, Samsung, Toshiba or any of them have any current TVs with cable card slots.

I think everyone is waiting on tru2way before they step into the cablecard quarmire again. Who wants to buy a TV with a cablecard and then still have to get a box?

AND try and find a new TYV today that HAS a cable card slot. I don't think Sony, Samsung, Toshiba or any of them have any current TVs with cable card slots.

Which doesn't surprise me at all now.

Does anyone either consumer or corporate actually like CableCard? Every story I've read has always involved some kind of hassle or technical mess. Especially if you are on my favorite cableco - TWC. You have to phone for someone to install a card in the box or device and then you still have to pay a rental fee for a bit of plastic. You may as well just tape a settop box to the back of the TV. You get interactive services with that as well.

Does anyone either consumer or corporate actually like CableCard? I loved it and I miss it. I had an LG HDTV that was equipped with TVGOS and CableCard. Worked absolutely flawlessly as advertised. Well, until the power supply cooked, which had nothing to do with the CableCard. But I agree, the cablecos don't want you to have it. Installation was 50 bucks and they charge $3 per month. You have to really want the thing. Dual tuner DVR is an 8 buck upcharge with no installation and it'll do PPV, OnDemand, etc.

Doc

Which doesn't surprise me at all now.

Does anyone either consumer or corporate actually like CableCard? Every story I've read has always involved some kind of hassle or technical mess. Especially if you are on my favorite cableco - TWC. You have to phone for someone to install a card in the box or device and then you still have to pay a rental fee for a bit of plastic. You may as well just tape a settop box to the back of the TV. You get interactive services with that as well.

CableCard originally grew out of the public outrage that their "cable ready" TV was not truly cable ready. The gov't put the cable companies and the CE manufacturers in a room and said "work it out"... which they did, sort of. The big problem was that, despite the original public outcry, there was very little consumer interest and the consumer electronics folks (especially Panasonic) were more than a little upset that nobody was buying CableCard TV's. The cable ops had a similar situation in that they were so rare, they had little chance to gain experience in troubleshooting the installations.

Also, not long after CableCard was introduced, new generations of STBs with value-added features such as EPG and DVR functionality - features that people actually wanted - made the STB a whole lot more acceptable - desireable, actually - to consumers. That REALLY reduced the demand for CableCard capable TVs and the CE manufacturers finally packed it in because they couldn't sell the things.

I think that tru2way will change things... conceptually its not much different than the original CableCard... but the open source platform that allows the CE device to run the same application as the STB does - or even more sophisticated apps that consumers might actually want - is new and should carry things much further than CableCard ever went.

I loved it and I miss it. I had an LG HDTV that was equipped with TVGOS and CableCard. Worked absolutely flawlessly as advertised. Well, until the power supply cooked, which had nothing to do with the CableCard. But I agree, the cablecos don't want you to have it. Installation was 50 bucks and they charge $3 per month. You have to really want the thing. Dual tuner DVR is an 8 buck upcharge with no installation and it'll do PPV, OnDemand, etc.

Doc

Actually, most cable ops would love you to have CableCards. More specifically, the would love to be out of the STB business. STB rental is NOT a profit center for cable ops. To them, its a highly regulated, low ROI thorn in their sides that so far has been a necessary evil to support their core business. The $50 installation charges came about because, despite the original concept, CableCards were rarely "Plug & Play" and would almost certainly generate a truck roll anyway if the consumer installed it themselves. There was no conspiracy on the cable op side to discourage adoption of CableCard... as I noted above, consumers themselves realized that the $8 DVR rental gave them more bang for the buck.

The tru2way capable TVs should do well for customers that want access to digital cable services and an EPG. What is going to be very interesting is to see how much the average consumer (not the average AVS member) is going to be willing to fork over for a third party DVR... it may still be difficult for the cable ops to get out of the DVR rental business.

I've had 2 CableCards in my TiVo Series 3 from 2 weeks after the Series 3 was released and never had a problem with them. I actually put them in myself while the tech was on the phone calling in the info. Install was $19.95 via Comcast.

The $50 installation charges came about because, despite the original concept, CableCards were rarely "Plug & Play" and would almost certainly generate a truck roll anyway if the consumer installed it themselves.

And that's where I think the whole concept fell apart. You should have been able to go into a store or cableco office and just buy a card for $50 that you could plug into whatever device you had. No installation fee, no monthly rental. You are already paying for the service, why have to pay more to access the service with a piece of hardware that was as barely any more advanced than a cheap cell phone? The aim of which was supposedly to allow you to buy any off the shelf product and have it be compatible with your provider where ever you are.

And one card for each tuner even if it's in the same device? Ridiculous.

Anyway, I think we are about to turn into Hot of the CableLabs Press so ...

;)

Actually, most cable ops would love you to have CableCards. More specifically, the would love to be out of the STB business. STB rental is NOT a profit center for cable ops. To them, its a highly regulated, low ROI thorn in their sides that so far has been a necessary evil to support their core business. The $50 installation charges came about because, despite the original concept, CableCards were rarely "Plug & Play" and would almost certainly generate a truck roll anyway if the consumer installed it themselves. There was no conspiracy on the cable op side to discourage adoption of CableCard... as I noted above, consumers themselves realized that the $8 DVR rental gave them more bang for the buck.

Say that again, out loud this time, but first cite your credentials. I've been saying this for at least 6 years now and no one has ever agreed with me. They all think STB is a cash cow and my (highly placed) source at Cox here says otherwise too.

well, all Cablecards do is tell the system which channels you're allowed to get. They can't send anything back to the cable company as messages like ordering stuff. Cable boxes have built in systems that do that sort of thing.

Whatever happened to the cable cards, which were supposed to replace the boxes -- and make life less complicated for viewers?


I'm going to apologize in advance for futhering the discussion by asking who actually likes CableCards. ;)

Discussion split off from the Latest News thread, though I'm not sure I got 'em all. Figured it's worth having its own thread.

To answer foxeng, BHN did a full sell job on NOT getting a CableCard. Told me all of the negatives while extolling the virtues of their boxes. But then, with CableCard, I don't see the ads they sell on their interactive guide nor can I buy PPV movies and events. I'm sure the income from all of that - at least to BHN - has them preferring STBs over CableCards.

Say that again, out loud this time, but first cite your credentials. I've been saying this for at least 6 years now and no one has ever agreed with me. They all think STB is a cash cow and my (highly placed) source at Cox here says otherwise too.

I doubt that the set top boxes are a cash cow - the problem is not that it's a profit center, but that the standalone cards tend to be a larger cost sink if the customer doesn't know what they're doing, and CableCARD standalones require workflow changes. They don't want to do that. They'd rather just stick with their boxes, which are a known quantity (even if they're not particularly good, which is especially the case for their DVRs), and tell the CableCARD customers to jam it someplace uncomfortable.

I had to raise hell with the FCC to get my current cable provider to make with CableCARDs when I first signed on with them - unfortunately they were insistent that they didn't have to (and of course, they quickly discovered they were wrong on that count). They'll deny, deny, deny to the ends of the earth - or at least till they get that letter on FCC letterhead. :) I'm sure they looove me for that.

Ninja edit:

I don't see the ads they sell on their interactive guide nor can I buy PPV movies and events. I'm sure the income from all of that - at least to BHN - has them preferring STBs over CableCards.

Oh yes, ad revenue. Hadn't thought about that; that's probably a part of it...

That's certainly a big part of it. Here's the reasons why they want you to use STBs (and do everything they can to make CC installs a pain in the ass):

- ad revenue in the guide
- can't remove channels you don't get from the guide, so you might be enticed to upgrade to a better package
- PPV and VOD rentals
- hardware that they know how to support

Discussion split off from the Latest News thread, though I'm not sure I got 'em all. Figured it's worth having its own thread.

Thank you!

I was wondering how long it would take as I was posting, but since Fred started the discussion with his question I figured it was OK.

There are several more over in the main thread, though.

Those are all good points and sad strories, but I guess we'll see what happens as tru2way takes hold. I can only imagine the nightmare that support has been through the digital buildout, cablecards, and DVRs, not to mention the threat from FIOS, telco's, etc. I'm probably naive, but I'm hopeful there will be a fundamental change to the way cableco's operate once user hardware moves to the retail side and customers invest in them. Customers often don't take care of equipment they lease, so I'm sure that has contributed to cableco support woes. If tru2way doesn't come though, these threads will have one less member and DirecTV will have another customer. I'd probably switch to FIOS regardless, but I will probably never have that option in Phoenix.

Actually, most cable ops would love you to have CableCards.Wrong.

More specifically, the would love to be out of the STB business.Wrong.

STB rental is NOT a profit center for cable ops.Wrong.

AND try and find a new TYV today that HAS a cable card slot. I don't think Sony, Samsung, Toshiba or any of them have any current TVs with cable card slots.

...but they WILL be forthcoming and will support tru2way (OCAP). Current tru2way licensees include:

ADB
Alticast
AMD
Broadcom
Cisco
Digeo
EchoStar
Funai
Intel
LG Electronics
Motorola
Pace
Panasonic
Samsung
Sony
Texas Instruments
Thomson
Toshiba
...and of course your favorite cable op is also a vocal supporter so I wouldn't expect any issues getting cards and authorization.

Say that again, out loud this time, but first cite your credentials. I've been saying this for at least 6 years now and no one has ever agreed with me. They all think STB is a cash cow and my (highly placed) source at Cox here says otherwise too.

18 years in the business, 14 of those as a senior corporate level engineer for a Top 10 MSO. Now 14 years out of the business, so I no longer have a dog in the fight. But I have very good insight as to how they think and what's important to them.

STB rental is one of the aspects of the business that is truly regulated as if it was a utility. It is not allowed to be a profit center.

I don't believe it and I won't believe it until there are more third party devices like TiVo. Directv used to have all different manufactors making boxes for them. Then they stopped and you can only get Directv boxes now. Then they switched from you buying the box to you lease the box (like a car really) since there is still a upfront cost. It's like with Cable Modems. My parents paid like $10 a month (I think) for four years for a cable modem. You can't tell me that Cox didn't make any money off of them.

Also you say that STB rental is one of the aspects of the business that is truly regulated as if it was a utility. News Flash Cable Companies are a utility. That's why as a Civil Engineer I must get the cable companies signature on my plans along side all the other utility companies in the area.

As for Cablecards my Mom has a TiVo that we have had to have the cablecards replaced a couple times. I had to be there when the tech showed up because the tech didn't know what he was doing. Those cards were designed to be a big pain in the butt. These tru2way cards should of been there from the beginning. I mean how long has the sat companies had these security cards in STB's and CableCard 1.0 was that bad. Give me a break. My dad can't even order the MLB package because he uses CableCard. Cox won't let him. He can get HBO though. Don't know why it's any different?

Many more third-party devices are forthcoming... and the cable ops will mostly welcome it. As I already noted, the most interesting part will be seeing how many people actually opt to buy their own DVRs. The number of Tivo's and Moxi's are currently dwarfed by the number of rented DVRs... unless somebody figures out how to sell a DVR for less than $150 or so, I suspect that the majority will continue to rent from their cable provider. If/when somebody does figure out the budget DVR, the likely cost cutting measures might severely compromise the functionality and reliability of the unit... but somehow folks will still find a way to blame it on a cable company conspiracy aimed at thwarting the competition.

You cannot compare modems with STBs because the modems are not rate regulated like the the boxes are. Just think about it... $300+ settop for $10/mo or $75 modem for $10/mo... which business do you think the cable ops would prefer to be in?

Just because they use public rights-of-way does not mean they are a fully regulated utility... a true utility is guaranteed a fixed rate of return based on their cost structure. Although cable ops are subject to significantly more regulation than your average business, they are not working under utility-style fixed-ROI rate regulation - EXCEPT for the notable exception of STB rentals.

There is no such thing as a tru2way "card"... tru2way (the consumer oriented name) or OpenCable (or OCAP - the cable industry name) refers to the application platform running in the host device, regardless of whether it resides in a rented STB or a purchased television. The "CableCard" is still part of the deal. It is not much more than a key that unlocks services that the host device may or may not be capable of providing. If a certain device, either a legacy CableCard device or a new tru2way device, cannot perform or deliver a certain function you might desire, that deficiency more than likely resides with the device, not the CableCard itself. Remember... both CableCard and tru2way were developed jointly with the CE industry... its not something that the cable companies unilaterally dictated to the rest of the world.

Perhaps someone far more technologically sophisticated than I can answer this question....

Whatever happened to the cable cards, which were supposed to replace the boxes -- and make life less complicated for viewers?

Weren't they mandated years ago?

As noted, tru2way is the name for the 2nd gen CableCARD devices. Right now, I'm only aware of one retail tru2way option, from one cableco, in 3 markets; Panasonic & Comcast have teamed up in Atlanta, Chicago, and Denver markets for those who want to purchase 42" or 50" Viera plasma HDTV's. End user reports have been lacking from these areas, but here is one early customer from Chicago who posted at AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14983666&highlight=#post14983666

From Multichannel News, By Todd Spangler

October 2008

Panasonic Takes Tru2way HDTVs To Retail
Comcast to Switch on tru2way Support in Chicago and Denver

Panasonic said it has shipped the first tru2way-based HDTVs to a retailer in suburban Chicago, while Comcast's Chicago and Denver systems have gone live with tru2way.

The developments mark a key go-to-market milestone for the cable industry's interactive services standard for consumer electronics devices that has been more than a decade in development.

Panasonic's first tru2way-enabled Viera plasma HDTVs will be offered in 42- and 50-inch sizes. The sets include a tru2way cable receiver -- eliminating the need for a separate set-top box -- that should theoretically work in any cable system that supports the technology.

Panasonic said its tru2way-certified Viera HDTVs are now available at Abt Electronics in Glenview, Ill., and will be available in the Chicago area at Circuit City locations. In Denver, the sets will be available at Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City stores.

“We see tru2way technology as the gateway for our customers to experience the next generation of interactive television, and our work with Panasonic to develop and support the first fully digital-cable-ready HDTVs is an important first step in making that happen,” said Mark Hess, Comcast's senior vice president of video product development, in a statement.

tru2way also represents the cable industry's desire to provide its own technology for consumer electronics makers—including Panasonic, Sony and Samsung Electronics—to access two-way cable services, instead of the Federal Communications Commission imposing an alternate standard.

Earlier this summer, Panasonic's tru2way HDTVs reportedly failed CableLabs certification testing for the spec, leading to speculation that the products would not meet the target of shipping for the 2008 holiday season.

Getting the tru2way products into the retail channel has been a priority for Comcast and Panasonic. The two companies have heavily promoted their collaboration on tru2way technology, touting their plans at the Consumer Electronics Show in January and at the NCTA's Cable Show '08 in May.

The TH-42PZ80Q 42-inch model will have a suggested retail price of $1,599.95, and the TH-50PZ80Q 50-inch unit will list at $2,299.95.

Both TVs feature 480-Hz sub-field drive for sharp motion image focus, 1,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio and a built-in SD memory card reader for playing back digital photos.

I do agree on Cablecards though. Unfortunately, there was/is a big difference between makers that caused at least some of the early problems. I've seen cards that couldn't be used in one setup work just fine down the street in another. I don't know how different they are from what DirecTV has used all these years, but I assume they are not the same. They sound simple on the surface, but they had to work with a multitude of different cable systems, so maybe that had/has something to do with it. I do agree they should be for sale though, just like STBs should. However, Cox is just now starting to make a profit off the DVR I've had for years now and I'm sure glad I didn't have to buy one of the previous models. And, I suspect I am an anamoly who didn't have to have my DVR replaced at least once.

The largest variable in deciding whether a CableCard worked at a particular location was the host device it was plugged into. Different manufacturers were more successful than others in maintaining the standards set for the CableCard interface.

I don't believe you will ever see the ability to buy your own CableCard... it is the key to services that the Cable op has every right to maintain control over. Its directly analogous to the SIM card in a GSM phone... you can buy an unlocked phone but you need a network issued SIM card to make it work on their network. The whole idea of the separable security mandate was for the cable ops to be able to maintain security with a low cost device that was separable from the host device. What is more likely to happen as tru2way device become more ubiquitous is that the CableCard will just be handed out to the consumer as part of their service with no separate line item charge for the device (or at least a reduced charge).

18 years in the business, 14 of those as a senior corporate level engineer for a Top 10 MSO. Now 14 years out of the business, so I no longer have a dog in the fight.Things have dramatically changed.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

There is no question that rates for STB rentals are tightly regulated. By law they are simply not allowed to be profit centers for the cable ops.

If the cable ops can move the huge burden that maintaining STB inventory is off to someone else and leave their core business unnaffected, they will jump at the chance.

Things have dramatically changed.

and I did not move into a vacuum, either.

Don't make the mistake of lumping the rental of the physical STB device along with the services they facilitate. I am not arguing that the operators want to give up the business that the STBs open the door to. I am only stating that they openly welcome tru2way and the chance to be rid of the highly regulated hardware rental without any effect on the unregulated revenues that traditionally have depended on the box's presence... PPV, VOD etc. Hell... we will probably start seeing separate charges for the EPG "service". But the actual box rental business... they will not miss it.

There is no question that rates for STB rentals are tightly regulated. By law they are simply not allowed to be profit centers for the cable ops.Again, things have dramatically changed. My sources tell me STB rentals are a profit center for most cableco's.

I am not arguing that the operators want to give up the business that the STBs open the door to. I am only stating that they openly welcome tru2way.................without any effect on revenues that traditionally have depended on the boxes presence.Agree.

a profit center.

Personally, I think we're mincing words here. It's already been stated that they do make a profit on them, at least the ones that last past their ROI date. IMHO, the question seems to be is the ROI controlled? If it is, then it doesn't seem like rentals can be a profit center, just a profitable area.

Having worked in inventory control for many years, I can only imagine the hassles these things cause cableco's, especially given the quality. Just based on that, my bet is they are just not worth it when there is much more to be made on the services with nowhere near the headaches.

Either way, I've seen no one here with the creds to resolve the issue and I highly doubt the data will be released by cableco's any time soon. When/iIf they announce they are getting out of the STB rental business, I guess the market reaction could give us a clue. :)

Either way, I've seen no one here with the creds to resolve the issue and I highly doubt the data will be released by cableco's any time soon.I fully believe my cable insider sources, which have always been 100% accurate and truthful with me in the past.

The rental cost for a Comcast Motorola HD-DVR has risen over 35% in less than 3 years here in the SF bay area. I think it's around $17-$18 per month now. It's difficult for me to imagine there's much else but profit being the driving force behind that increase(same equipment as it was 3 years ago). If equipment rental prices were being regulated by the FCC, it's equally hard to imagine that they would have allowed such a steep increase in price in such a short period of time. Bottom line, equipment rental is definitely a profit center for cable in my opinion.

76.923 - Rates for equipment and installation used to receive the basic service tier.

(a) Scope.
(1) The equipment regulated under this section consists of all equipment in a subscriber’s home, provided and maintained by the operator, that is used to receive the basic service tier, regardless of whether such equipment is additionally used to receive other tiers of regulated programming service and/or unregulated service.

Such equipment shall include, but is not limited to:
(i) Converter boxes;
(ii) Remote control units; and
(iii) Inside wiring.
(2) Subscriber charges for such equipment shall not exceed charges based on actual costs in accordance with the requirements set forth in this section.
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/octqtr/pdf/47cfr76.923.pdf

Actually, I have been wrong and stand corrected... there is no ROI: Equipment rentals are based on actual costs of equipment and ancillary labor with no provision for ANY profit on the equipment at all.

Note that these rules were promulgated in '94, became effective in '96, and are still in effect largely unchanged (the referenced PDF is current). The FCC form used to annually justify/submit equipment rates is FCC Form 1205. A significant portion of my duties in the '94-'95 time frame was doing "practice runs" on Form 1205 for all of our cable systems to determine what the impact of the then new regulations were going to be.

That explains why my DVR is split into two charges. "Digital Equipment" which is always 6 bucks, and "DVR" which is an upcharge that has gone up (I only have the one box).

The rule says "receive" ..nothing in there about storing and retrieving. So, technically, that makes the DVR exempt from the rule, especially if it's detailed on the bill in the method mine is.

No, I'm not a lawyer, but i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express, last night.

The rental cost for a Comcast Motorola HD-DVR has risen over 35% in less than 3 years here in the SF bay area. I think it's around $17-$18 per month now. It's difficult for me to imagine there's much else but profit being the driving force behind that increase(same equipment as it was 3 years ago). If equipment rental prices were being regulated by the FCC, it's equally hard to imagine that they would have allowed such a steep increase in price in such a short period of time. Bottom line, equipment rental is definitely a profit center for cable in my opinion.

Operators are allowed/encouraged to group multiple categories of boxes together... most commonly as addressable vs. non-addressable. As the percentage of higher cost DVR boxes has increased as older boxes are retired (not to mention the FCC mandated rollout of costlier OCAP boxes), the cost basis used to calculate the allowable box rental rates has risen substantially over the past few years.

That explains why my DVR is split into two charges. "Digital Equipment" which is always 6 bucks, and "DVR" which is an upcharge that has gone up (I only have the one box).

The rule says "receive" ..nothing in there about storing and retrieving. So, technically, that makes the DVR exempt from the rule, especially if it's detailed on the bill in the method mine is.

No, I'm not a lawyer, but i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express, last night.

I'd bet that your bill doesn't just say "DVR"... it likely says "DVR Service". It also depends on the current legal interpretation of "unregulated programming service" vs "unregulated service"... but you are probably correct in your interpretation.

But my whole point has been that the operators really have no interest in being in the hardware rental business other than to support other services... and have no problem allowing others to accept that burden as long as tru2way allows them to maintain control of the services. I also have no doubt that cable ops have been game-planning how to best restructure their service offerings to maximize their revenues in the "new world order"... EPG Service, Enhanced EPG Service, Remote DVR Scheduling Service, Internet on Your TV Service, etc.

Look at the bright side... relieving themselves of the huge capital and operational burden that STB inventory represents may just free up capital for other infrastructure upgrades... we can hope, anyway.:rolleyes:

I'd bet that your bill doesn't just say "DVR"... it likely says "DVR Service". It also depends on the current legal interpretation of "unregulated programming service" vs "unregulated service"... but you are probably correct in your interpretation.

But my whole point has been that the operators really have no interest in being in the hardware rental business other than to support other services... and have no problem allowing others to accept that burden as long as tru2way allows them to maintain control of the services. I also have no doubt that cable ops have been game-planning how to best restructure their service offerings to maximize their revenues in the "new world order"... EPG Service, Enhanced EPG Service, Remote DVR Scheduling Service, Internet on Your TV Service, etc.

Look at the bright side... relieving themselves of the huge capital and operational burden that STB inventory represents may just free up capital for other infrastructure upgrades... we can hope, anyway.:rolleyes:

You can quote all the FCC regs you want. They all look great on paper. What happens in the real world is another matter.

For example, the FCC also has regs on cableco's passing local HD in the clear, which for years and years some of the top 10 largest cableco's in the country did not do, for example Cox & Charter, regardless of what the regs were, and not once did the FCC step in to act on behalf of the consumer. Not once. Only after years of behind the scenes maneuvering among cableco's did they finally decide to join the clear QAM crowd.

Let me see if I can make it more clear: I have it direct first hand information that some of the largest cableco's in the country look at STB rentals as an ongoing sustainable source of revenue and profit, regardless of what laws or regulations appear to say.

I'm out of here, this is getting too contentious. Ken has first hand info, I have first hand info. I think "rental" probably is a misnomer since the alternative right now is Expanded Basic or less level of service without renting an STB. If the FCC regs are to be believed, they can't make money off the hardware, but they sure can off everything else related to renting an STB, especially DVRs. Even non-DVRs can have a fee for the IPG sotware, etc. So, I think you are both right and this is just not worth further discussion IMHO.

STB rental is one of the aspects of the business that is truly regulated as if it was a utility. It is not allowed to be a profit center.
I wonder what the cable co calls the money they get off a leased item after the item has been paid for? :rolleyes:

"All equipment in a subscriber’s home, provided and maintained by the operator, that is used to receive the BASIC service tier". Note that it says "basic service tier", which means limited basic, not higher tiers. Digital boxes are not required to receive limited basic almost all cable systems yet. If a cable system eliminates all analog service then it's digital boxes would be subject to rate regulation. Most likely the boxes used for a digital limited basic tier would not output HD or conditional access capability. Rather, it would be a cheap SD clear QAM box. They would probably still use different boxes for higher tiers and the rental price of those boxes would be unregulated.

"All equipment in a subscriber’s home, provided and maintained by the operator, that is used to receive the BASIC service tier". Note that it says "basic service tier", which means limited basic, not higher tiers. Digital boxes are not required to receive limited basic almost all cable systems yet. If a cable system eliminates all analog service then it's digital boxes would be subject to rate regulation. Most likely the boxes used for a digital limited basic tier would not output HD or conditional access capability. Rather, it would be a cheap SD clear QAM box. They would probably still use different boxes for higher tiers and the rental price of those boxes would be unregulated.

Didn't go quite far enough:

"all equipment in a subscriber’s home, provided and maintained by the operator, that is used to receive the basic service tier, regardless of whether such equipment is additionally used to receive other tiers of regulated programming service and/or unregulated service"

Right now no boxes are needed to receive the limited basic tier. If a system eliminates all analog service and goes digital only they will probably use different boxes for the limited basic tier than they use for expanded basic and premuim channels. Therefore the rental rates for the higher tier boxes will not be subject to rate regulations.

I wanted to chime in here on some of the basic points.

First, a cable card is a hardware device that accepts out of band data to allow conditional access tuning of encrypted content. It is not a piece of plastic, but an addressable hardware decryption key system that involves the same chipset that would be inside the STB. It is up to the Host device tuner, such as the actual TV tuner or Tivo tuner, etc to be able to receive the out of band signal and hand it off to the cable card so that it can read the data and provide the authorized channel package that was paid for and is on their account. The tuner then must tune in the appropriate channel from the QAM signal, and send the encoded and demuxed stream through the cablecard to be decrypted and then back to the display device to be viewed. Many times, as alluded to in this thread, the HOST device, does not always follow the exact Cablelab spec (cost cutting?) and tries to do the intensive tasks on their own.
Also note that all cable cards have always been capable of two way services and it has been up to the host device to be able to send back a signal for two-way communication (see next section about 14 million two-way STB's in service). Single stream cards were discontinued by the time the FCC mandated all new STBs to have seperable security. After that time, multistream cards, capable of decoding up to 8 streams have been widely available and are the majority of all cable cards available. Again, it is up to the HOST device tuner to be able to send multiple streams to be able to utilize multistream functionality (Tivo s3 can't, but Tivo HD can).

Second, on the cable card distribution. There have been over 14 MILLION cable card equipped STB's deployed and in use by cable companies. This was disclosed as part of the FCC request to force cable companies to distribute STB's with seperable security. Those same cable companies have only had requests for under 500 thousand cable cards installed in customer owned equipment. The majority of these customer ownned equipment cards were for Tivo owners with multiple cards being used for the Tivo S3 because of it's lack of support for multistream cards.

Third, For the same reason cable companies gave to the FCC about additional costs with building a slot, processor, and interface for cable cards in STB's, the consumer industry has now virtually stopped manufacturing displays that can accept cable cards because in order to remain competitive in pricing, they had to cut costs and remove them.

Fourth, Tru2way is still going to be a cable card technology (for now), but has allowed for the 2-way APPLICATIONS used by cable companies, such as the Interactive Program Guide (IPG), Video On Demand (VOD), etc. etc. to reside on the host device so that they can run exactly like a STB. The exact same applications and cards used in a STB will be used in a TV or other Host device, but the TV or Host device MUST be up to the task of running those applications. The cost of adding the interface, processing, and memory to meet the tru2way specs will add several hundred dollars to the cost of a similar featured display without the interface.

vegggas

I read the comments between Ken, Dave, and jcalabria and have my own inside information. I do work with several cable companies on various projects and have been a technical consultant when a group of us looked into the purchase of a small cable company. The STB rentals themselves are not a way for cable companies to make money, especially in the HD realm. Jcalabria has been right on the money and HD STB's and DVR's through their life cycle do not create new revenue on the hardware. The initial cost, maintenance, and failure rate create a low ROI on the hardware. Where revenue is generated is from increased services and tiers of service.
If you want some easily supported evidence on ROI of hardware, consider this.
Initial investment for an SA HD-DVR runs about $500. Rental fees run between $5 to $10 (That is for RENTAL only - DVR Service, which has a licensing fee to the the cable company is seperate). That means to break even, a STB has to be in use and working for 100 to 50 months, depending on rental costs. That's over 4 to 8 years where each box has to be working and accounted for, just to break even. Subtract the number of boxes damaged, non-working, stolen, or just never returned (see ebay) and the break even period is extended even further. Now that Cable leased DVR's and STB's are still in their initial pay off satus, they have YET to make them profitable, but for accounting purposes, they can write the initial purchase as an expenditure during the year they were purchased, and count the rental fee as a profitable fee during the other years they are in use.
With that information, some can say they are profitable in the sense that three years ago they were paid for and that money is long gone as operating expense, but the rentals are now bringing in monthly revenue this year - Even though the combined rental fees have not yet grossed as much as the original expenditure. If the combined rental fees are still LESS than the original purchase price, as a piece of hardware, they are NOT PROFITABLE.
I could go on, but I would be repeating myself. The accounting metric of STB's doesn't make sense if that is the only way to generate revenue, but if you can defer loss for one year to show profit the next, even though the profits are less than the loss, that can be reported as a gain.

vegggas

vegggas,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I have a great deal of respect for your opinions and comments. I have no doubt that what you post is true for the situation you describe.

Still, I also believe what I've been told is true.

Best,
Ken

other than a tivo, is there any other device i can put a cable card in and decode the hd signal from my cable provider? I have a slot in my 5010 kuro, but i found the PQ was disappointing, but would be adequate for a bedroom tv with sd. Any ideas?

Winston,
Using a cable card with your Kuro would allow you to receive either the SD or the HD tranmission of a local channel. Are you sure you selected the HD channel number which is different from the SD channel number?
The cable card is just providing the capability to decrypt the encryted digital channels you subscribe to. The decoder in the Kuro itself is what does the decoding.
If your Kuro also has an OTA digital tuner that you can connect to an antenna how is the PQ of the HD channels when broadcasting true HD programs?

Winston,
Using a cable card with your Kuro would allow you to receive either the SD or the HD tranmission of a local channel. Are you sure you selected the HD channel number which is different from the SD channel number?
The cable card is just providing the capability to decrypt the encryted digital channels you subscribe to. The decoder in the Kuro itself is what does the decoding.
If your Kuro also has an OTA digital tuner that you can connect to an antenna how is the PQ of the HD channels when broadcasting true HD programs?


Yes, the cable card in the kuro will receive the hd broadcasts, but i find the quality to be inferior to the set-top box comcast provides. the lack of a guide is annoying too.

that said, i have a cable card lying around that i would love to use to get hd cable for a bedroom tv (comcast dings me $13 per month for naother box). Can I use a device (ie tivo) with cablecard to get cable hd in bedroom?

I don't know the answer, I believe that there are at least two cable card formats Ask you cable company since you are leasing the card from them,

Perhaps someone far more technologically sophisticated than I can answer this question....

Whatever happened to the cable cards, which were supposed to replace the boxes -- and make life less complicated for viewers?

Weren't they mandated years ago?


Cablecards are dead in my opinion: one or two way whatever, the Cablecos managed to kill them off because it was a mandate from the FCC and did not fit their business model ....for example my local Comcast never even bothered to invest in a cablecard TV to diagnose card problems. I had 5 cards at one point and it was a struggle keeping them working: especially when the host provider did not care to support them [since then I left Comcast for DirecTV...a very good move]

Cablecards are a great idea but the implementation and acceptance in the industry just never worked out

no matter now the Cablecard is dead: RIP

no matter now the Cablecard is dead: RIP

You mean, other than the part where cablecos still offer them, and in fact use them in their own boxes due to FCC mandate? The new tru2way boxes will still be using them as well, and the cablecos are trying to expand the rollout of tru2way.

Might as well say Hollywood is dead too, while you're at it. :)

Yes, the cable card in the kuro will receive the hd broadcasts, but i find the quality to be inferior to the set-top box comcast provides. the lack of a guide is annoying too.

that said, i have a cable card lying around that i would love to use to get hd cable for a bedroom tv (comcast dings me $13 per month for naother box). Can I use a device (ie tivo) with cablecard to get cable hd in bedroom?

Something doesn't sound right - I can't believe the decoder/scaler in a cable co STB would do a better job than the QAM tuner/scaler inside a Kuro.

No problem using a Tivo with cablecard - tho financially you won't come out ahead much.

Nothing you can do about the lack of guide, VOD and other two way services - current version of cablecard just doesn't do that. Tru2way will.

vegggas,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I have a great deal of respect for your opinions and comments. I have no doubt that what you post is true for the situation you describe.

Still, I also believe what I've been told is true.

Best,
Ken

And I respect your comments and opinions as well and do know that you have contacts within your neck of the woods, specifically with Comcast. I have worked with multiple systems providers within Cox, Time Warner. Bright House Networks and many smaller providers, but not Comcast. It all boils down to how executives want to show the numbers to shareholders. If you spend $1million on Hardware in 2005, but if you make less than $1million on rental fees through the life (4-5 years) of the hardware to 2009 - that's a net loss - Period. Financial wizards will spin it to say that we "Lost money ($1Million) in Capitol Expenditures" in 2005, but look, we had a profit of almost $1Million over the last four years! It only looks like profit from the standpoint that you accepted the up front loss of the capitol investment, and everything after that year seemed like profit because the books are cleared each year and rentals do not have as much recurring expense.

I done wit that topic and each will have to form their own opinions.
vegggas

Yes, the cable card in the kuro will receive the hd broadcasts, but i find the quality to be inferior to the set-top box comcast provides. the lack of a guide is annoying too.

that said, i have a cable card lying around that i would love to use to get hd cable for a bedroom tv (comcast dings me $13 per month for naother box). Can I use a device (ie tivo) with cablecard to get cable hd in bedroom?

The Kuro must not be looking at the HD versions (maybe the analog version?) of the channels, The act of adding a STB will only add to format conversions of the signals and interfaces that will degrade performance, where a card is only decrypting the signal the Kuro is tuning natively. Typically if you are tuning whole or low numbers on a cable card system, you are viewing an analog channel. Take the card out and search for your clear QAM signals that will be in a raw QAM format xxxx.xxxx.

I don't know the answer, I believe that there are at least two cable card formats Ask you cable company since you are leasing the card from them,
The only two formats are the old obsolete single stream cards and multistream cards. They both do the same functions, but the older cards can only feed one stream from one tuner. Multistream cards can be used in host devices with single stream (TivoS3) or multistream (TivoHD) tuners. There is the possibility that you are talking about the two makers of cable card, namely SA or Motorola, which they each use their own decryption standard. These systems do not overlap and the cards remain the property of the cable company in the us, so it is unlikely that you would have a card from another system, unless it was mistakenly removed from you home system and rendered useless.

Something doesn't sound right - I can't believe the decoder/scaler in a cable co STB would do a better job than the QAM tuner/scaler inside a Kuro.

No problem using a Tivo with cablecard - tho financially you won't come out ahead much.

Nothing you can do about the lack of guide, VOD and other two way services - current version of cablecard just doesn't do that. Tru2way will.
Current and past versions of cable card can do Guide and VOD. I've got three STB's in my home with cable cards that do all of that and more. It is the HOST Device, ie the STB, Display Tuner, or Tivo that lacks the ability to send data back to the headend to allow for the two way services. Tru2way allows for a STANDARD for consumer devices to meet that they can send data back to enable these services theough the cable card.

vegggas

Looks like the Comcast digital starter freebee box, the Motorola DCH70/2081, has a cable card or something similar built in. There's a weird shaped metal cover fastened onto the back of the box with two philips screws covering where the card sticks out of the back of the unit. Makes you think it was designed in the 60's and had tail fins.

I wanted to chime in here on some of the basic points.

First, a cable card is a hardware device that accepts out of band data to allow conditional access tuning of encrypted content. It is not a piece of plastic, but an addressable hardware decryption key system that involves the same chipset that would be inside the STB. It is up to the Host device tuner, such as the actual TV tuner or Tivo tuner, etc to be able to receive the out of band signal and hand it off to the cable card so that it can read the data and provide the authorized channel package that was paid for and is on their account.

That's interesting.

I had always assumed that CableCards worked pretty much like DVB Conditional Access Modules (which are PC-card form factor modules that slot into a PC-card slot in a TV or set top box and in turn have a smart card reader in them for a subscription card - which is sometimes optional) - i.e. the conditional access data was in-band, and part of the same MPEG2 transport stream as the video, audio, text content for each channel, or group of channels. In DVB (-T,-C,-S and -S2) there are separate PIDs carrying data for the CAM, just as there are PIDs for audio, video, data, network information, EPG content, bouquet data etc. - but they are in the same transport stream, and thus carried such that the same tuner and demodulator can receive both content and encryption details.

Are CableCards sent separate encryption data on a different frequency (i.e. out of band) to the video/audio streams for content, thus requiring two tuners, two demoulators etc.? That sounds crazy.

Or am I missing something?

I think the confusion is coming from the fact that the US cable company QAM RF channels are above the RF channels used by OTA digital(RF channel 51 or less) such as RF channel 101.xx or 102.xx. PSIP data contained in the QAM tranmissions provides the "Digital channel name" such as 7.1, 10.2 etc. The cable company downloads into the cable card what channels the user is subscribed to when ever the user changes his subscription options. The card can then receive and decrypt those channels for the tuner. AFAIK nothing is being transmitted twice by the cable company. The bandwidth to do so would be cost prohibitive.

You mean, other than the part where cablecos still offer them, and in fact use them in their own boxes due to FCC mandate? The new tru2way boxes will still be using them as well, and the cablecos are trying to expand the rollout of tru2way.

Might as well say Hollywood is dead too, while you're at it. :)

Yeah, I too think CCs are far from dead. The new Moxi box utilizes them (a great box by the way) and, as you say, they're utilized by almost all cable operators.

FIOS has been quietly switching to 2-way recently and, in some areas, you can't get the one-way cards anymore.

Operators To Miss Tru2way Deadline
Agreements With CE Companies Specified 100% Headend Support for Retail Devices By July 1
By Todd Spangler -- Multichannel News, 6/30/2009 5:03:36 PM EDT

Comcast, Time Warner Cable and Cox Communications will not have tru2way interactive-services technology enabled across their entire footprints by July 1, as they had pledged in agreements with consumer-electronics companies last year.

But executives from two CE manufacturers, Samsung Electronics and Panasonic, said the two biggest cable operators have made good-faith efforts to date on deploying the technology and they expect additional tru2way markets launched soon.

"I can't say I'm happy about the results -- we would have liked for things to happen more quickly -- but we have to be realistic about the complexity of this project," said Jeff Cove, Panasonic's vice president of strategic alliances, adding, "My sense is the cable companies are trying to meet the deadlines."

Added Stephen Goldstein, Samsung's director of business development and marketing, "This is difficult technology. It's not for lack of trying. It's executing and implementing these technologies, which have developed over the last 10 years. I think things are going as well as they could be with OCAP [the OpenCable Application Platform] and tru2way."

The tru2way specification, based on the Java programming language, lets cable operators deliver interactive TV applications and video programming to any compatible device, such as a set-top box or TV.

Five of the six biggest U.S. MSOs -- Comcast, Time Warner Cable, Cox Communications, Cablevision Systems and Bright House Networks -- committed to the July 1, 2009, deadline in pacts with major consumer-electronics companies signed last summer, with the exception of Charter Communications, which had agreed to support tru2way by July 2010. The deal effectively resolved cable's disagreement with CE companies about how operators will provide access to two-way cable services.

Cable executives said there was now a spirit of cooperation between the two industries, whereas in the past their negotitations have been confrontational.

"I'm pleased that we've reached a point where instead of firing bullets at each other, we've got our business and technical people talking to each other now instead of us lawyers," said National Cable & Telecommunications Association general counsel Neil Goldberg.

While Comcast won't make the July 1 deadline, "the primary thing that has happened is, we've moved from opposite sides of the table to the same side of the table with the CE companies," said Comcast senior vice president of strategic planning Mark Coblitz. "This was a private agreement, so it's businesspeople working with each other to get this done."

Coblitz said Comcast doesn't have an end date for when it will have 100% of its headends enabled for tru2way-based retail devices but said "it won't be in the too-distant future."

Time Warner Cable also will miss the deadline "but we've told our partners we're committed to tru2way, and we're close to trials," spokesman Alex Dudley said. He noted that TWC has already deployed more than 2 million tru2way-based boxes in the field.

Executives from Comcast and Time Warner Cable, speaking in January on a panel at the Consumer Electronics Show, had expected to be ready with tru2way support by the July 1 date.

For its part, Cox said in a statement: "We are currently undergoing readiness testing in all of our locations. Cox will provide support for tru2way devices comparable to leased set-top box customers and will also begin purchasing tru2way compatible STBs by the July 1 deadline. We are working closely with consumer electronics manufacturers to enable full tru2way functionality on our cable platform with the hope of full-readiness by the end of the year."

Cablevision and Bright House representatives did not respond to requests for comment.

The Consumer Electronics Association, which has continuously lobbied the Federal Communications Commission to implement rules requiring cable to open access to retail devices, declined to comment on the tru2way deadline. CEA "did not sign on to this agreement and therefore we don't want to offer a comment," said spokeswoman Meghan Henning.

Sony Electronics, which until May 2008 had been a notable holdout in refusing to use the cable industry's technology, also declined to comment.

Panasonic was the first to market tru2way-based HDTVs, having launched in three Comcast markets: Chicago, Denver and Atlanta.

Cove said Panasonic intends to launch tru2way-based products in more markets and with more MSOs, "but we're kind of doing it carefully." The manufacturer also will expand its lineup of tru2way devices, beyond the 42- and 50-inch plasma-screen HDTVs it has been selling.

Samsung has sold tru2way-based set-tops to Time Warner Cable and Bright House, and has agreements to deploy them in the field with Comcast, according to Goldstein.

"It's been a favorable experience in light of what is a pretty fundamental addition to their digital video infrastructure," he said, pointing out that the transition requires changes to operators' interactive program guides and headend software.

CableLabs has tried to push the tru2way "ecosystem" forward in various ways. This month it released a reference implementation of the tru2way code base, available under open-source or commercial licenses for no fee.

The consortium also held an interactive TV interoperability event May 4-9, with 22 software and hardware vendors, programmers and operators. The lab sessions included more than 35 applications, written to CableLabs' tru2way and Enhanced TV Binary Interchange Format (EBIF) specifications, running across multiple headends, user agents and set-top boxes. CableLabs is planning its next tru2way interoperability event in the fall of 2009.

Both retail CE companies as well as suppliers to the cable industry have signed tru2way agreements, including: ADB, Alticast, AMD, Broadcom, Cisco Systems, Digeo, EchoStar, Funai Electric, Intel, LG Electronics, Pace, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony, Texas Instruments, Thomson and Toshiba.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/307206-Operators_To_Miss_Tru2way_Deadline.php