_____Blu-ray________HBO HDTV Broadcast_
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The Blu-Ray is clearly sharper in the first pic, but you didn't specify your multichannel provider. Unless you got your HBO cap from C-band or Verizon, your provider likely recompresses the signal.

The HBO caps are from RCN, which doesn't compress, but the point of the thread is the light, but still disappointing DNR that HBO found necessary to apply, similar to Band of Brothers.

Looks to me more like compression noise, not actual film grain, in the HD version. In a couple of shots, the BD had more detail with less noise. I'll take the BD.

Looks to me more like compression noise, not actual film grain, in the HD version. In a couple of shots, the BD had more detail with less noise. I'll take the BD. In the 4th comparison there's quite a bit of grain missing on the BD. It's more noticeable in motion TBH, the Blu-ray has a "smeary" appearance.

Kinda waxy looking. The BD is sharp but the smooth/lack of texture look is unnatural.

I enjoyed the series, but I thought it was captured with HD cameras, but it seems it wasn't. As far as it looking this way or that, I don't recall it being PQ that was anything to rave about on HBO, but there was a lot of CGI used and that may have some impact on the look of the PQ.

Kinda waxy looking. The BD is sharp but the smooth/lack of texture look is unnatural.


People looked waxy then or at least they should have. :D

Between poor lighting, makeup(especially in France) and wigs it was the time to look weird and waxy. :D

I'm not going to claim that DNR hasn't been used... but it sure doesn't appear that way to me. I'm not seeing a loss of detail or destroyed texture. In fact, I'm seeing more detail in the Blu-ray pics. That fourth shot on the HD broadcast especially has a ton of blocking that makes it difficult to tell what's film grain and what's digital noise.

It's also a very nice upgrade over the (not pictured) DVD.

Kinda waxy looking. The BD is sharp but the smooth/lack of texture look is unnatural.
The HBO caps are from RCN, which doesn't compress, but the point of the thread is the light, but still disappointing DNR that HBO found necessary to apply, similar to Band of Brothers.
It's not DNR, it's not destroying detail. This aired around the same time as Generation Kill and that's not DNRd I don't think BoB is DNRd either. HBO puts a great deal of care into all of their TV series in every aspect.

The Blu-ray resolves detail better, doesn't have macro blocking, and has better color reproduction. But it has a smooth look to it. Now the other two releases "True Blood" and "Generation Kill" look like they were lifted directly from the camera without any touching.

What's the different about the John Adams release? The codec. It's that damn Warner-applied VC-1 codec. The catalog team seems to know it more or less, but most of the modern movies Warner authors with it seem to have some sort of codec issue(most of the time it's either "smoothing" or grain not resolving properly, and sometimes macro blocking).

Eric does this have 24bit audio? It might have been in the pipe before HBO made Warner author with the new specs(AVC and 24bit MA, which I consequently emailed them about a few times:D).

Even with that little issue it looks much better than the broadcast version. The 4th comparison looks more like blocking than grain to me, even so one would expect some grain in low-light.

Didn't someone quote that HBO are grain haters.:confused:

It's not DNR, it's not destroying detail. This aired around the same time as Generation Kill and that's not DNRd I don't think BoB is DNRd either. HBO puts a great deal of care into all of their TV series in every aspect. We don't have access to a higher quality source to know what detail was lost. Even though the MPEG2 broadcast is low quality you can still see a small increase in waxiness on the BD.

It has 16-bit DTS-MA. I'm over blaming VC1 for smoothness, it was Warner's filtering the whole time IMO.

It has 16-bit DTS-MA. I'm over blaming VC1 for smoothness, it was Warner's filtering the whole time IMO.
Then this was authored before they switched up their codecs. So it probably got the exact same treatment BoB did.

Eric take a look at the other two releases. They are perfect, based on the source of course - GK being from 16mm. Can you do comparisons of True Blood or Generation Kill.

The bad news is that the most wanted series did get some slight filtering, but it looks like they might be done with this. Watchmen is getting DTS-MA, apparently, so maybe Warner is completely done with fudging the image.

I truly believe it's a combination of some filtering, and a lack of knowledge on the part of the team that does new releases, because none of the 50+ year old movies that Warner presses to disc seem to have any of these issues.

As far as True Blood goes... I've watched through the entire set on my 92" screen and I thought it looked absolutely great. A real upgrade over the HD cable broadcasts. If any filtering was done, I didn't notice it. Texture and fine detail were great throughout the series.

We don't have access to a higher quality source to know what detail was lost. Even though the MPEG2 broadcast is low quality you can still see a small increase in waxiness on the BD.

It has 16-bit DTS-MA. I'm over blaming VC1 for smoothness, it was Warner's filtering the whole time IMO.
Scrutinizing these screenshots, I still think you're wrong here. I'm seeing no loss of detail, no waxiness. What I see is even, fine film grain on the Blu-ray with none of the smeariness that I'm used to seeing from DNR - I certainly noticed what was done to the grain structure in Band of Brothers. And what I see on the cable caps is lots of little squares, lots of artifacts from poor compression.

As far as True Blood goes... I've watched through the entire set on my 92" screen and I thought it looked absolutely great. A real upgrade over the HD cable broadcasts. If any filtering was done, I didn't notice it. Texture and fine detail were great throughout the series.

I watched True Blood on a 108" screen and I noticed EE in many episodes. Nothing catastrophic by any means, but slightly irritating nonetheless. But again, I am abnormaly sensitive to EE. I did not notice any distracting DNR though.

Scrutinizing these screenshots, I still think you're wrong here. I'm seeing no loss of detail, no waxiness. What I see is even, fine film grain on the Blu-ray with none of the smeariness that I'm used to seeing from DNR - I certainly noticed what was done to the grain structure in Band of Brothers. And what I see on the cable caps is lots of little squares, lots of artifacts from poor compression.

The smearing can really only be seen in motion. I took some sequential screens showing the smearing/frozen grain patterns.

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It's like this in slow moving scenes throughout the whole set. In scenes with faster movement it doesn't smear as much but still doesn't look very pleasant.

I could only find one scene that has naturally moving film grain. It's at the very end of Episode 2.

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This set is a huge disappointment for me. Such a tremendous miniseries certainly deserved better treatment.

What's the different about the John Adams release? The codec. It's that damn Warner-applied VC-1 codec.

We don't have access to a higher quality source to know what detail was lost. Even though the MPEG2 broadcast is low quality you can still see a small increase in waxiness on the BD.

It has 16-bit DTS-MA. I'm over blaming VC1 for smoothness, it was Warner's filtering the whole time IMO.


The same people, still blaming the same codecs. Nothing changes...Glad some people are "over it."


Anyone want to chime in and blame the bitrate, or the final file size? It just isn't complete without those complaints, too.

I wasn't disappointed with the PQ of the broadcast, so I'm sure the BD will only be an improvement, despite all the problems I had one night, watching it. When watching it, there were issues with my cable provider at the time, and I got all kinds of strange dropouts, freezes, and compression artifacts because of Cablevision's "technical difficulties", so I'm probably not remembering something too discerning to compare against...but the nights when those problems weren't around, I remember it looking quite good.

I remember a real dull and grey palette on a lot of indoor shots, something I'm sure is somehow VC1's fault, too. ;)

The smearing can really only be seen in motion. I took some sequential screens showing the smearing/frozen grain patterns.

It's like this in slow moving scenes throughout the whole set. In scenes with faster movement it doesn't smear as much but still doesn't look very pleasant.

This set is a huge disappointment for me. Such a tremendous miniseries certainly deserved better treatment.
Well that's... really disappointing. I certainly stand corrected. :(

The same people, still blaming the same codecs. Nothing changes...Glad some people are "over it."

I remember a real dull and grey palette on a lot of indoor shots, something I'm sure is somehow VC1's fault, too. ;)
A number of newer Warner titles have that frozen grain look too that weren't DNR'd like Domino and I think part of Body of Lies has it too.

Doesn't matter anymore with the new HBO titles since they dropped VC-1...unless they plan to use that for catalog titles. I guarantee you if Rome is one of their new AVC encodes it won't have any of the same issues.

Again I'm not blaming VC-1, I'm blaming the way Warner's team for new titles use it. Their movies that are decades old don't have any of these issues.
How can you "guarantee" that Rome won't have the same issues just because it's encoded with AVC?

On one hand, you're trying to say the codec doesn't have anything to do with it, and then, you're claiming when another codec is used, "it won't have any of the same issues."
Well from the looks of the other two releases, they didn't need to touch those at all. They just encoded them and they don't look manipulated. It's who is using the codec, and it looks like this group has an easier time with the AVC.

A number of newer Warner titles have that frozen grain look too that weren't DNR'd like Domino and I think part of Body of Lies has it too.

Doesn't matter anymore with the new HBO titles since they dropped VC-1...unless they plan to use that for catalog titles. I guarantee you if Rome is one of their new AVC encodes it won't have any of the same issues.

Again I'm not blaming VC-1, I'm blaming the way Warner's team for new titles use it. Their movies that are decades old don't have any of these issues.

How can you "guarantee" that Rome won't have the same issues just because it's encoded with AVC?

On one hand, you're trying to say the codec doesn't have anything to do with it, and then, you're claiming when another codec is used, "it won't have any of the same issues."

If the techniques used for the encoding are the problem, and NOT the codec....you'd be much better off leaving phrases like "Warner-applied VC1" and "I can guarantee AVC encodes won't have have the same issues" out of the conversation, because you're contradicting yourself when you do, and you wouldn't have to back-peddle quite as much.

shadowrage, the fact that you believe MPEG-2 is a superior codec to VC-1 removes any credibility you might have had.

In these screencaps, there are definitely compression artifacts, but it also appears like there is a smidgen (and I mean that literally) of DNR. Look at Jefferson's forehead in the first picture. Something doesn't sit right. There is still a bit of grain though. DNR can be applied conservatively without destroying the image.

Warner/HBO seems to be keen on using DNR pretty often.

And yes, Band of Brothers was DNR'd at times. I own it and noticed it.

shadowrage, the fact that you believe MPEG-2 is a superior codec to VC-1 removes any credibility you might have had.
Given enough space it is. Then again VC-1 with a high enough bitrate looks just as good.

In these screencaps, there are definitely compression artifacts, but it also appears like there is a smidgen (and I mean that literally) of DNR. Look at Jefferson's forehead in the first picture. Something doesn't sit right. There is still a bit of grain though. DNR can be applied conservatively without destroying the image.

Warner/HBO seems to be keen on using DNR pretty often.

And yes, Band of Brothers was DNR'd at times. I own it and noticed it.
I have BoB too, it's not DNRd either, and doesn't look DNRd but it has less detail than the HD-DVD. Pan's Labyrinth is DNRd, fine detail is destroyed.

Didn't the entire series of John Adams use a lot of facial prosthetics? That's probably the waxy look in some of the faces. I think it even won an Emmy for it.

It's the way they are encoded that why it looks like "just a hair" of DNR. What would the point of that be?

Out of 4 HBO releases 2 look filtered 2 don't. 2 were encoded VC-1, 2 were encoded AVC.

The BD of John Adams resolves more detail than the HD broadcast and less macro blocking(comparison #4 doesn't show grain reduction, it's blocking on the broadcast version), personally I think it looks fantastic. But any issue here isn't due to DNR in my opinion.

Watched the first episode last night, what an excellent series so far (I have read the book twice). Great acting.

At any rate, it looked like light usage of DNR in parts to me. And in other parts, not so much. The PQ seems somewhat inconsistent, but I would not call it disappointing. Indeed, I would imagine that it is a huge step up over the DVD. The DTS-HD-MA soundtrack is fairly detailed and is a winner for sure.

I paid $36.99 for the set (plus $3 shipping) and it has been worth every penny so far. I do wish that HBO/Warner would stop with the digital processing, and I can fathom that this could have looked better, but it is still a solid release in my book for PQ.

http://www.****************/img/i/P.jpgKinda waxy looking. The BD is sharp but the smooth/lack of texture look is unnatural.http://***************/9/P/i.jpg

Agree on my screen it doesn't look too good..Waxy is a good word, decent film though

I've seen the first 5 episodes (2 discs) so far and I really enjoyed it; I also thought the PQ was very good. I should get the 3rd disc on Monday if zip.ca is to be trusted (they're saying Friday, so I'm hoping for Monday).

Granted, I never saw the series on HBO(I think it aired on HBO Canada here, or MovieCentral before HBO Canada showed up), I just put it in my zip.ca list and it showed up. While I don't think the PQ on what I saw was perfect by any stretch of the imagination, I'm surprised to read in this thread that some of you seem to be extremely disappointed with it's transfer.

I no longer have the first two discs to look at as I did mail them back already. Perhaps I'm also too engrossed in the storyline -- we've also been watching it with the "Facts are stubborn things" (I think that's what it is called) turned on. I don't know much about American history so the tidbits that shows during the playback are interesting to me.


Perhaps it's the equipment I'm watching it on is simply different then everyone else's who've seen it so far (PS3 to Panasonic TH-58PZ800U THX mode). Or maybe I'm a bit more forgiving regarding the prosthetics vs possible DNR; I did feel that there was plenty of textures and clarity throughout what I've seen so far -- although again, not perfect as there were definitely a handful of scenes that I did find lacking, in the grand scheme of the duration of the episodes I found them to be of a small percentage.


Those sweaty scenes where Adams was sick showed me a little MORE detail than I ever needed to see of Giamatti's face! :D


At any rate I'll be glad to receive the final disc; it's a tremendous miniseries! :)

I've seen the first 5 episodes (2 discs) so far and I really enjoyed it; I also thought the PQ was very good. I should get the 3rd disc on Monday if zip.ca is to be trusted (they're saying Friday, so I'm hoping for Monday).

Granted, I never saw the series on HBO(I think it aired on HBO Canada here, or MovieCentral before HBO Canada showed up), I just put it in my zip.ca list and it showed up. While I don't think the PQ on what I saw was perfect by any stretch of the imagination, I'm surprised to read in this thread that some of you seem to be extremely disappointed with it's transfer.

I no longer have the first two discs to look at as I did mail them back already. Perhaps I'm also too engrossed in the storyline -- we've also been watching it with the "Facts are stubborn things" (I think that's what it is called) turned on. I don't know much about American history so the tidbits that shows during the playback are interesting to me.


Perhaps it's the equipment I'm watching it on is simply different then everyone else's who've seen it so far (PS3 to Panasonic TH-58PZ800U THX mode). Or maybe I'm a bit more forgiving regarding the prosthetics vs possible DNR; I did feel that there was plenty of textures and clarity throughout what I've seen so far -- although again, not perfect as there were definitely a handful of scenes that I did find lacking, in the grand scheme of the duration of the episodes I found them to be of a small percentage.


Those sweaty scenes where Adams was sick showed me a little MORE detail than I ever needed to see of Giamatti's face! :D


At any rate I'll be glad to receive the final disc; it's a tremendous miniseries! :)

I don't find the PQ to be bad per say. Just inconsistent. You have to understand that some people at AVS hold things to almost a perfect standard. My wife watched this series with me and she kept telling me how good she thought it looked (whereas I thought it was a 3.5/5 star PQ release at best for me). But she is also not looking for DNR or smoothness.

That said, this series was amazing. We have the last episode to watch plus all the supplements. I am really enjoying the series and hope we get more series like this on Blu-Ray.

I don't find the PQ to be bad per say. Just inconsistent. You have to understand that some people at AVS hold things to almost a perfect standard. My wife watched this series with me and she kept telling me how good she thought it looked (whereas I thought it was a 3.5/5 star PQ release at best for me). But she is also not looking for DNR or smoothness.

That said, this series was amazing. We have the last episode to watch plus all the supplements. I am really enjoying the series and hope we get more series like this on Blu-Ray.



Oh I understand; I'm an avid participant in the PQ thread & I know we all have various expectations of what we see on Blu. After what I've seen thus far, I think your thought of 3.5/5 would be a decent grade for it; in my head I've been thinking of it in a tier 1.75-ish range with regards to the PQ tier rankings, but I'm reserving my judgement until I've seen the entire thing. I think inconsistent really is a good word for it. When the PQ goes south, it baffles me as to why it looks so bad when just seconds before it looked beautiful.


I definitely agree with you that it's an amazing series. Admittedly it's not a subject matter that I'm particularly interested in, but it's managed to captivate me to the point that I'm recommending it to everyone I know (and blathering about it with you guys here!).

This is an excellent miniseries.
Watched the first disk from NF and decided to buy it when there is a sale.

I have this series on DVD, and rented the BD to see if it was enough of an improvement to warrant a double-dip. It was not. Still shot closeups reveal a lot of fine detail in the BD that's not there in the DVD, but more than 1/2 the time the difference was moot. Over-all I was disappointed in the PQ compared to the DVD.

Didn't want to start a new thread. Since this one seems to have run its course, how is the replay value for you personally and what is your score for PQ for the BD release?

It is around $33 at Best Buy.

Worth it.

:)

Didn't want to start a new thread. Since this one seems to have run its course, how is the replay value for you personally and what is your score for PQ for the BD release?

It is around $33 at Best Buy.

Purchased at BB yesterday for $32.49 + tax, thanks to your heads up. Not unwrapped yet, as I'm 50-50 if I'm going to keep it. I've seen it on Blu-Ray and have read (audio book, unabridged) McCullough's book. The incessant use of angled shots got on my nerves, but despite that and some (IMO) unnecessary historical inaccuracies (see Wikipedia for a list of these), I'll probably unwrap it since it's a gripping and well-acted and authentic-looking show and a great way to spend a few hours even if one has already seen it. The leads are great.

Good replay value.

It is now $25 @ A.

P.S. Okay, my unopened copy went back to BB. $10.10 is $10.10. Though Wal-Mart online is cheaper than Amazon, I ordered something else from Amazon so I got free shipping, which Wal-Mart didn't have. I should get sometime after 1/4/10, I suspect.

Didn't want to start a new thread. Since this one seems to have run its course, how is the replay value for you personally and what is your score for PQ for the BD release?

It is around $33 at Best Buy.

Good replay value.

It is now $25 @ A.

I never open impulse buys quickly. More times than not I have returned them. In this case, the Amazon price will be the reason! :)

I know....I saw the A deal too late and bit on the BB price. Oh well, it was a gift card. Anyway, I did pop in the first disc and watched the first 2 episodes already. The opening PQ was troublesome, but starts improving dramatically throughout the episode. Also, once the second episode got going, it does draw you in then.