We've been discussing in the Plasma forum (9G Settings/Issues) how much variation there might be between the 2009-built 9G Elites and those 9Gs which were manufactured in 2008. D-Nice and others have already indicated that in 2009 Pioneer utilized a different location for assembly of the 9G plasmas. So since there has been a recommended set of settings for a number of the models (most of which were done with 2008-builts) I was concerned as to how far off these would be on mine.

This was more a curiosity than anything else, since my purpose in getting CalMAN and a Chroma5 was to be able to actually do a calibration myself. But I figured a thing to do before starting would be to "baseline" my panel with these settings which I had been using since post break-in. Here is the result.

The actual Delta E is 2.24 (which I wish CalMAN would put on this "combined" display in an obvious manner). Yes, the RGB levels in the tracking ramp appear to be all over the place; overall I'm not sure if this would be considered "way off" from what would have been expected. I've read through the tutorial in CalMAN and have some idea of where to go from here, but I wouldn't mind hearing from more expert heads on the right approach.

Not sure why you are using any "baseline" settings. Just calibrate it. Anything else is really irrelevant. From my experience, RGB levels are quite uniform on the Elite's with only a minimal DE error. Generally, the DE has been an average of less than 1. Technically speaking, according to Poynton, you shouldn't be able to discern a DE of less than 4 with the human eye, but the Pioneer 9G Elites, on average, are capable of much better than 2.24. However, each IRE is assigned a DE value. If any IRE is greater than 4, you may be able to see it at that particular IRE value in playback. Not sure as to your version of CalMan, but the Pro version displays the DE of each IRE as well as the average.

S-M-B, the purpose of the baselining was really two-fold: 1) getting used to the operations of CalMAN, and 2) just satisfying my curiosity with regard to this whole suggested settings thing. My engineering background is showing. Believe me I plan to do my own calibration on this thing.

I'm using CalMAN Home. I was using the Intermediate setting which has pre-determined report layouts. I plan to move to Advanced which I think will allow me to create my own layout for a summary report page, which will include Delta E (it does show up on the Intermediate Gamut summary page which I did not post).

Question: why is my 100% W luminance value so low (~28fL) if the Luminance curve shows that R,G,B are all above the target line?

S-M-B, the purpose of the baselining was really two-fold: getting used to the operations of CalMAN, and 2) just satisfying my curiosity with regard to this whole suggested settings thing. My engineering background is showing. Believe me I plan to do my own calibration on this thing.

I'm using CalMAN Home. I was using the Intermediate setting which has pre-determined report layouts. I plan to move to Advanced which I think will allow me to create my own layout for a summary report page, which will include Delta E (it does show up on the Intermediate Gamut summary page which I did not post).

Question: why is my 100% W luminance value so low (~28fL) if the Luminance curve shows that R,G,B are all above the target line?

Assuming you are using Pure mode... the max attainable luminance is programmed-in by Pioneer. Pick a different mode and it will have a different max luminance. For example, Standard, Optimum, and Performance modes should produce much higher peak luminance measurements for higher Contrast settings. If this is not happening, there's something odd going on.

CalMAN Pro (not sure about other versions) permits setting the peak white level for Pure mode higher than is possible using the User Menu slider. 28 fL is only a little lower than I'd set it for... I usually set panels to 30 fL... maybe 35 fL in some cases - assuming viewing will be in a dark room. But even at 28 fL, if the gamma is right and the room is dark, there won't be any sense that the picture is not too bright.

Thanks Doug. Yes, I'm using Pure right now. I'm taking this one step at a time. Once I understand how to get things right in Pure I will use ControlCAL to set up ISF Auto, Day, and Night.

For this Pure Mode scenario what would you recommend as maximum 100% W fL for mixed daytime / nightime viewing (I'm willing to live with a compromise on this one).

...
Question: why is my 100% W luminance value so low (~28fL) if the Luminance curve shows that R,G,B are all above the target line?

The curves are all defined relative to the 100% luminance value, i.e., they are all computed relative to whatever is measured for 100%. So you adjust your peak white as Doug described above, then calibrate everything else to that.

The luminance curve appearing above the target line indicates that your measured gamma is lower than the target set in Calman.

The RGB level tracking shows you the relationship among the three components of the luminance. In your case, at the high stimulus levels, the white point is being pulled too much toward red. The numeric data indicates the same, as the x-coordinate of 100% white is pulled to the right.

Question: why is my 100% W luminance value so low (~28fL) if the Luminance curve shows that R,G,B are all above the target line?Because you are using GetGray as your pattern source. Unfortunately that disc's windowed patterns are too large to use on the 111FD as it triggers the ABL circuit when using the higher stimuli windows. You either need to find a SD DVD pattern source that uses smaller windows or get a BD player and use the AVS709 disc.

Because you are using GetGray as your pattern source. Unfortunately that disc's windowed patterns are too large to use on the 111FD as it triggers the ABL circuit when using the higher stimuli windows. You either need to find a SD DVD pattern source that uses smaller windows or get a BD player and use the AVS709 disc.

D-Nice - no! Well that throws a wrench into things. Any sugesstions on an alternate disc? Can I use the old VE (not DVE)? I have that and the old Avia, but I hesitate to use that one because of the documented problems it had.

You can try Tom Huffman's patterns in the Basic Guide to Color Calibration using a CMS (updated and enhanced) thread... although I'm not sure of his window pattern size.

D-Nice, here are pics of the two of them. Tom's is on the top, GetGray below. I think your opinion on this would be better than mine.

D-Nice, here are pics of the two of them. Tom's is on the top, GetGray below. I think your opinion on this would be better than mine.

Visually it appears that the upper one, from Tom Huffman's patterns, has a brighter white than the one from GetGray. That should mean it will be more useful to you, based on what D-Nice wrote, as it is not activating the automatic brightness limiter (ABL) logic. If you measure the two of them, you will be able to verify numerically that you are seeing different white levels.

Why did you take the pictures of the 90% stimulus patterns? Did the 100% patterns appear to give the same white?

D-Nice, here are pics of the two of them. Tom's is on the top, GetGray below. I think your opinion on this would be better than mine.Use Tom's pattern.

Bill, I just used 90% because when I popped the Huffman disc into my computer I saw the 30% / 90% menu entry and went right to that.

Thanks D-Nice. Is 35fL a good number to use for mixed Day / Night viewing?

Greetings

35 fL ... good bad ... kind of depends on the person. Sort of like asking someone else if an apple is right for me?

It depends.

Eye fatigue is different for everyone ... unless you somehow believe it is the same for everyone. Then one number fits all.

regards

Well, there's something very very wrong here. With the Huffman 100% W window I'm already up to a Contrast of 50 (!) and the reading is only 28.xx fL. But, when I call up the Elite on screen menu to adjust the Contrast (IOW bring up the Contrast bar) the reading suddenly jumps way up to almost 40. When I dismiss the menu the readings stay that way, but when I go back to the DVD menu to retsart the 100% window the readings fall back to ~28 fL. What is happening?

D-Nice got ~38 fL with the Contrast set to 37!

Well, there's something very very wrong here. With the Huffman 100% W window I'm already up to a Contrast of 50 (!) and the reading is only 28.xx fL. But, when I call up the Elite on screen menu to adjust the Contrast (IOW bring up the Contrast bar) the reading suddenly jumps way up to almost 40. When I dismiss the menu the readings stay that way, but when I go back to the DVD menu to retsart the 100% window the readings fall back to ~28 fL. What is happening?

D-Nice got ~38 fL with the Contrast set to 37!Do you have the room light sensor turned on? What about the power save mode?

Cr@p! Yeah, room light sensor is on. Is that why it wasn't going up in the expected manner when Contrast was being cranked? If so, then is it about bringing up the Elite menu that alters this? Power Save is off.

BTW, how dangerous is it for the Chroma5 body to tap against the panel glass? No matter how careful I try to be it usually lightly taps the glass a couple of times while I'm setting it up, before settling down.

EDIT: I turned off the sensor and the 100% number jumped right up to where it should be using at Contrast=37. But (still) now I can't seem to get the 10% point down to .65% of that, unless the Brightness setting is almost all the way over to the left. D-Nice, how in the world did you get .2301 with Brightness=0????

BTW, how dangerous is it for the Chroma5 body to tap against the panel glass?

Frakin' C5 hard body. I'm going to make a bumper for mine one of these days.

Hold the counterweight where you want it but forward a couple inches so the C5 can't touch the screen. Twist the cable (gently) or rotate it in the weight until the torsion is neutral and the C5 is parallel to the screen. Now bring the weight back to position. Note that the bezel keeps the C5 from hanging properly. At this point the SpectraCal folks will suggest painter's tape. I have a roll of of anti-slip shelf/toolbox/carpentry mat about 24" wide. I lean that against the C5 which holds it parallel and assures uniform contact of the felt ring. I use the mat because it's just heavy enough, it's extremely soft and, of course, it won't slip off the C5.

Or you could just switch to an i1pro.

Yeah, it scares the business out of me everytime it taps the screen. I like your technique. Now of course I keep staring at that little area of glass to see if I damaged it any. :(

Cr@p! Yeah, room light sensor is on. Is that why it wasn't going up in the expected manner when Contrast was being cranked?

You would be amazed how common it is to forget to check the light sensor :eek:

:o Yeah, but what about the Brightness level? Why is it I can't get the 10% window even close to .65% of 100%W with Brightness=0 the way D-Nice did on his display? I mean, not even close!

:o Yeah, but what about the Brightness level? Why is it I can't get the 10% window even close to .65% of 100%W

I don't know what part of the workflow you're doing but you might be fighting the gamma selection you've made. It sounds like you're trying to get 2.2 which might tough if you've asked the panel for a gamma of something notably different. I don't know what the gamma targets are for 111FD presets.

BTW, have you read all the help files in CalMAN?

I don't know what part of the workflow you're doing but you might be fighting the gamma selection you've made. It sounds like you're trying to get 2.2 which might tough if you've asked the panel for a gamma of something notably different. I don't know what the gamma targets are for 111FD presets.

BTW, have you read all the help files in CalMAN?

Hmm, maybe. I'm using a Gamma setting of 2, which is supposed to be the one to use to get to an overall 2.2.

I have read through... most, I'll say, of the CalMAN help files. I say "most" because it's hard to know whether you've actually seen all the help files, the way the program is organized. It's a great program, but not what I'd call the best in terms of Human Centered Design. I am using the initial two-point method of using grayscale for contrast/brightness, as detailed by Tom Huffman and others.

Just for kicks I did something very simple today - I set my Pure Mode selection exactly to D-Nice's recommendation in Post #3 here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053444

Look at the PDF file. It shows, with these settings, with Brightness set to 0 a 10% target of .23 fL. I'm not pointing to this to say my numbers should be identical - I'm not that much of a babe in the woods. I point it out only because my 100% fL output is just about the same, and in my case I have to set the Brightness to almost -20 to even have a chance of getting close to what my target number should be at 10%. This is way too large a variation to make sense. I just can't figure out why.

I did turn off the room sensor. Do I have to go so far as to unplug it from the back of the set?

D-Nice, help!

EDIT: I've attched a pic of what the 10% window looks like with Brightness set to 0 on my set. Excuse the no flash handheld nature of the image. The image may also be exaggerated a bit because of camera metering. Somebody tell me this isn't what it looks like on their 111FD.

D-Nice, Turbe, Tom Huffman, Bill, bodosom, anybody?

D-Nice, Turbe, Tom Huffman, Bill, bodosom, anybody?You need to use a pluge pattern to properly set the brightness. Do not use Tom Huffman's instructions for settings brightness. The pluge pattern on your GetGray disc is probably the best out there. Set the brightness to when 1% stimuli is barely visible.

You need to use a pluge pattern to properly set the brightness. Do not use Tom Huffman's instructions for settings brightness. The pluge pattern on your GetGray disc is probably the best out there. Set the brightness to when 1% stimuli is barely visible.

D-Nice, I appreciate your getting back to me over the holiday period. I'm being a pest partly because I have only 6 days left for a potential return if it turns out there could be something wrong here.

Okay, so first set Contrast with Tom's disc using the 100%W and shooting for 30-40 fL, then go to the GetGray for the Brightness pluge pattern and the 1%. Do I assume that you mean the -1% stimuli (not +1%)?

Do I assume that you mean the -1% stimuli (not +1%)?

No, the below reference bars should not be visible.

Thanks B! I reread the instructions (that helps :) ).

Well, either I have the sight of Superman or I don't know what is going on. Using the GetGray Brightness pluge pattern I can just discern the +1% bar when the Brightness setting is at -18. This is in my living room with indirect afternoon lighting. Anyone else even close to this?

I wonder if there's something about the Marantz DV9500 that may explain what I'm seeing.

Using the GetGray Brightness pluge pattern I can just discern the +1% bar when the Brightness setting is at -18.

I don't have a 111 but that seems impossible. Particularly if the default is 0. My ISFccc-day setting is +2 and night is +1.

Don't you have blu-ray?

Again with the Blu-Ray! ;) No, not yet, but I think I've figured it out.

I've been running my DV9500 HDMI output at "RGB Normal" (16-235) for this whole time. The choices are that, RGB Expand (0-246), 4:4:4, and 4:2:2. So I decided to try the others, and what do you know when I selected RGB Expand and took another look at the pluge pattern it banged right in with Brightness set to 0.

This confuses me however, as I thought we weren't supposed to be running players to pass below black. And of course in this mode when I look at the Contrast bars they are completely blown out, although I know that I should be using the 100%W window and a meter to set that. But still.

Thanks for hanging in there with me bodosom! :)

Well, either I have the sight of Superman or I don't know what is going on. Using the GetGray Brightness pluge pattern I can just discern the +1% bar when the Brightness setting is at -18 It's sounds like your are using RGB over HDMI with a Video-PC level mismatch between your player and the 111FD. One is set for 0-255 and the other is set at 16-235. Check the HDMI input settings on the 111FD and on the player. Set them both to 16-235 (Color-3 on the 111FD).

EDIT: It looks like you figured it out right before I posted.

Thanks JD. I'm pretty sure I left it set to Auto (I'll have to check). If so, I wonder why it isn't adjusting properly to the Marantz output?

The Pioneer KRP-500M switches to 0-255 when set to Auto with a 16-235 signal. Maybe the 111FD does the same thing, but I am not sure. You should select 16-235 on both rather than 0-255.

Really? Is that some kind of firmware bug? There's nothing in the 111FD manual about that; makes it sound like it would make the right selection.

EDIT: Well, that won't work. Currently with Pure Mode, if I set the HDMI Video to Color=3 it creates a very light image with a light purple cast when viewing programming from my STB (a Moto 6416). The STB HDMI out has no options for Video mode. And on top of that when I switch to the DVD player and set it to RGB Normal, it doesn't do anything (still stays too bright). I may be dealing with a series of bugs.

I wonder why I got that light purple cast with the STB output?

I've been running my DV9500 HDMI output at "RGB Normal" (16-235) for this whole time. The choices are that, RGB Expand (0-246), 4:4:4, and 4:2:2. So I decided to try the others, and what do you know when I selected RGB Expand and took another look at the pluge pattern it banged right in with Brightness set to 0.

I suppose your player could be doing the wrong thing but I'd try either YCC option, possibly forcing each end. And check with other Marantz owners to see if clipping is a known problem. As long as it's not stretching the levels the 0-246 is okay.

If you are switching everything into one HDMI port, follow what Bodosom said, that will work. The YCC he referred to is "YCbCr" 1 and 2 on the Marantz and Color1 and 2 on the 111FD and Auto should work too.

Well, RGB Normal and Color=3 definitely does not work. So is 4:4:4 better than 4:2:2? If I'm going to try these I'd rather try the one that is theoretically better first.

Hmm, it seems like REC601 is 4:2:2. I guess I'll try that one first.

EDIT: Sigh. There are some odd things going on. It seems RGB Expand is the only thing that will get me a normal Brightness setting on the 111FD from my Marantz. If I try either 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 on HDMI input, the STB display is fine (although 4:2:2 definitely decimates the colors from the STB, so it wouldn't be the right choice here) and set the same Video type on the DV9500 - in both cases it produces the same kind of light purple overlay on the display as when I had Color=3 on the 111FD viewing the STB.

As to white clipping with the DV9500 set to Expand, I gotta say it does in fact seem to be greatly blowing out the whites when set this way. I can't see any of the Contrast pluge bars in this mode.

Based on what you have posted, your DVD player is not an ideal source for generating patterns. Nothing you do with that player will be remotely close to what is needed for your cable box. That player is by no means neutral. You need to either get a BD player or get a pattern generator.Well, RGB Normal and Color=3 definitely does not work. So is 4:4:4 better than 4:2:2? If I'm going to try these I'd rather try the one that is theoretically better first.

Hmm, it seems like REC601 is 4:2:2. I guess I'll try that one first.

EDIT: Sigh. There are some odd things going on. It seems RGB Expand is the only thing that will get me a normal Brightness setting on the 111FD from my Marantz. If I try either 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 on HDMI input, the STB display is fine (although 4:2:2 definitely decimates the colors from the STB, so it wouldn't be the right choice here) and set the same Video type on the DV9500 - in both cases it produces the same kind of light purple overlay on the display as when I had Color=3 on the 111FD viewing the STB.

As to white clipping with the DV9500 set to Expand, I gotta say it does in fact seem to be greatly blowing out the whites when set this way. I can't see any of the Contrast pluge bars in this mode.

Based on what you have posted, your DVD player is not an ideal source for generating patterns. Nothing you do with that player will be remotely close to what is needed for your cable box. That player is by no means neutral. You need to either get a BD player or get a pattern generator.

Cr@p. But tell me, D-Nice, have you ever seen this weird purple overlay problem yet on any of the 9Gs with other input sources (including STBs)?

have you ever seen this weird purple overlay ...?

This is almost certainly an encoder/decoder problem. If you're not ready to go blu-ray you might want to invest in an Oppo DVD player. Another option is to get an HD-DVD player (they're quite inexpensive) and use the HD-DVD version of AVSHD.

Cr@p. But tell me, D-Nice, have you ever seen this weird purple overlay problem yet on any of the 9Gs with other input sources (including STBs)?

Only when you set the HDMI Color incorrectly.

Well, I'm just gratified you and bodosom have seen this before. There was still a small part of me worried that something was wrong with the display.

I am a little surprised, though. When the DV9500 came out I seem to remember it passed pretty much everything that got thrown at it.

If it helps, I use the new OPPO Blu-ray player as my reference. It is quite good, and replaces my PS3. Regardless of which disc player you are using, you want the output levels to match the input levels. Your worst-case is having one think "PC" and the other think "Video". One way to avoid this, potentially, is to force YCbCr, rather than RGB. This is going to be the generally preferred way of transmitting a signal. What is on-disc is 4:2:0, so both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 represent different levels of upsampling (a different topic, entirely).

If the "purple" is closer to a "magenta" problem, then your display is interpreting the incoming signal differently (either RGB interpreted as YCBCr or YCbCr being interpreted as RGB. Which it is depends on the image in question -- "purple overlay" is vague). Also, check the cables in all of this. You can get just ever so slightly loose cables and this type of thing can show up.

Oh, yeah, if you want to see ALL of the help files, get into 'Advanced' mode, and then ask yourself when you are thinking that CalMAN has bad human-centric design, "Would a person completely new to calibration find these helpful, or overwhelming?" ;)

Bill

If it helps, I use the new OPPO Blu-ray player as my reference. It is quite good, and replaces my PS3. Regardless of which disc player you are using, you want the output levels to match the input levels. Your worst-case is having one think "PC" and the other think "Video". One way to avoid this, potentially, is to force YCbCr, rather than RGB. This is going to be the generally preferred way of transmitting a signal. What is on-disc is 4:2:0, so both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 represent different levels of upsampling (a different topic, entirely).

If the "purple" is closer to a "magenta" problem, then your display is interpreting the incoming signal differently (either RGB interpreted as YCBCr or YCbCr being interpreted as RGB. Which it is depends on the image in question -- "purple overlay" is vague). Also, check the cables in all of this. You can get just ever so slightly loose cables and this type of thing can show up.

Yeah, it's a sort of magenta cast. I'll check the cables. I'd actually thought of that but didn't try it. :)

Oh, yeah, if you want to see ALL of the help files, get into 'Advanced' mode, and then ask yourself when you are thinking that CalMAN has bad human-centric design, "Would a person completely new to calibration find these helpful, or overwhelming?" ;)

Bill

Thank Bill. Well, it's easy to second guess a visual design I suppose. It's an area where I've seen a lot of work done in my professional career, so maybe I'm a little extra sensitive to it. :)

Wel Bill, you were on to something but it still didn't fix everthing. I got 16-235 to work for both the display and DVD player. But in this mode it is too "light". I have to run the Brightness down way too far to even come close to the Brightness pluge looking right. It's the opposite of clipping the whites, I guess.

U-S-A! U-S-A! :) :) :)

I finally figured it out. It turned out that in the Marantz Video Adust Menu it had somehow defaulted itself back to Standard. When I got my 1150HD I had set up Video Adjust Memory 1 for use. That memory had the DV9500 Contrast cranked down to its minimum to resolve the clipped whites when running 16-235. So now with 16-235 set on both the 111FD and the DV9500 - and using the correct Video Adjust selection - the Contrast and Brightness pluge patterns on GetGray look perfect.

I can finally calibrate this thing!