So I am in the market for a large (probably 54" or 58") flat panel for my family room. I was pretty sure I was going to go the LCD route since there is a reasonable amount of light in the room but I am really worried about off angle viewing. So now I am thinking plasma is the way to go. Would love to get a Kuro but can't seem to find them anywhere and don't want to spend 10k. So that leaves me with Samsung and Panasonic.

The two models I was thinking about are the Samsung PN58B860 and the Panasonic TC-P58V10 (I guess the G10 in 54" could possibly work as well.

Here is what I seem to have gathered from snooping around:

1) Panasonics seem to have better blacks than Samsungs, although the new Sammys have pretty good blacks (certainly better than I would get w/ an LCD)

2) Samsungs seem to have better color and a sharper picture than Panasonics

3) The Samsung B860 has more of anti-glare coating than some other plasmas which may make it better for daytime viewing

I love the slim look of the Samsung and since I am concerned about glare, any edge there would probably be more meaningful to me than the difference between really good vs. great blacks.

And all else being equal I would go with the Samsung as I have been very happy with Samsung products in the past. I'm not as big of a fan of Panasonic although I know they make great plasmas.

So I'm kind of leaning towards the Sammy B860 but really not sure.

So which would people recommend and why?

For the record, the LCD I was leaning towards was the Sammy LN52B750 or possibly the Luxia B9000 when it comes out. At first I was pumped for the LEDs until I read about edge lighting. Should I be thinking about one of these models instead of the plasmas above (I know this is the plasma forum of course).

TIA

That's like walking into a bar half filled with Yankee fans and half filled with Boston fans and asking which team is better. There are some very strong feelings on both sides.

As they always say, go with what looks best to you. The bottom line is each set has tested well enough across the board that it you were to generalize its overall performance they would be in the same range. Some prefer the black levels on the Panasonic, others the color levels on the Sammy. (And BTW, the best LED-LCD's are very close to them on blacks now too; some would argue slightly better).

Personally my attitude is get the largest possible Tv that you are happy with the PQ of, can afford and will fit in your space. You will never regret it, but you may regret the alternative, as I did with my 50" which seems small now. But that's just my opinion. As you know, you'll have to wait a couple months if you want to get the V's in the 58" or larger.

I looked closely at the 860 and almost got it. Great TV. As you may have seen here, some people are reporting a buzz sound after a week or so of use. I wouldn't let that be a deciding factor unless you are totally on the fence, in which case it might be.

Good luck.

You spelled out the PQ advantages and disadvantages of each set quite well. Go look at them and read both threads. They are both excellent, and would look great in your home. I am also considering both, but am leaning toward Panny because of (IMO) better quality control and customer service. But go read all the relevant threads and decide for yourself.

2 excellent choices, if you can find a dealer where you can hook up sources such as Blu Ray, DVD, PS3, 360 and test it out or any source you will use primarily. Some places will allow you to test your stuff and whichever you prefer you should go for. :D When purchasing my set I look to hook up ALL my devices and test them out. The salesman was quite amazed at how much I brought in. He enjoyed playing a couple of rounds of gaming as well. I personally wouldn't buy it if what I primarily used it for doesn't please your eyes after adjustments. Good luck.

That is like saying one car is faster than the other because of how you feel. :rolleyes:

Just get the V10 if you want a good tv. If you want a Tv that is inferior in every way (aside thinness) go for the Samsung.

That is like saying one car is faster than the other because of how you feel. :rolleyes:

Just get the V10 if you want a good tv. If you want a Tv that is inferior in every way (aside thinness) go for the Samsung.

And the first drucken fan emerges from his barstool to start a fight...

What's the point of trying to imply that one of these is definitely better than the other when there's no objective basis on which to do so? You could list your reasons, they could list there's and the objective record is pretty well split. Most of the reviews are suggesting they are about even too.

Glad you like your Panasonic. Sit down and enjoy your drink. No need to start a fight.

And the first drucken fan emerges from his barstool to start a fight...

Speak for yourself.

What's the point of trying to imply that one of these is definitely better than the other when there's no objective basis on which to do so?

lol i guess you really are drunk.

For the opening poster not the drunkard.

The Panasonic is more accurate for colour, has higher motion resolution, stronger natural contrast and nicer gradation of colours and greys. To top it off the anti glare coating on the Panasonic is marginally better.

The Samsung has several issues. It has more pwm noise. It has worse dithering(sparklies) and the picture is not on the same level as wella s consuming more power.

It is ultimately up to you but one tv is already regarded as the best quality for 2009 so far.

I would personally recommend the Panasonic. I know nothing about the Samsung unit, but I will believe what others are saying & concede that it is a close competitor.

But Panasonic's customer service & post-sale attention can't be beat...by anyone.

I bought a TH-46PZ800U at the end of December 2008. A beautiful tv, it was my Christmas present from my wife. I'd never seen such a beautiful picture. It died on my wall a couple weeks ago. No warning.

One call to Panasonic Viera Concierge and I had a case # and the name & phone number of a local servicer. I called them. Two days later (would have been the next day, but I wasn't ready for him), a very professional, meticulous technician was at my house replacing a circuit board. Didn't fix it. Two days later, he was back replacing another. Didn't fix it. All this time he was coming after 5PM because he knew I couldn't take more time off work. Two days later, the Panasonic rep was calling my cell to tell me he was replacing the tv. Since I had the 800U, the V10 was the fair replacement series. To my advantage, the smallest available is 50". No problem. That's what I'm getting.

That situation will have me singing Panasonic's praises for a very long time, and will have me buying their products for just as long.

It's also why I just don't get why people are falling over themselves to buy a Pioneer right now. Panasonic makes such a close competitor, and they will be around next year. Pioneer is guaranteed to be gone. What then?

The Panasonic is more accurate for colour, has higher motion resolution, stronger natural contrast and nicer gradation of colours and greys. To top it off the anti glare coating on the Panasonic is marginally better.

The Samsung has several issues. It has more pwm noise. It has worse dithering(sparklies) and the picture is not on the same level as wella s consuming more power.

It is ultimately up to you but one tv is already regarded as the best quality for 2009 so far.

As I posted above, I am leaning toward a Panny over a Sammy, but your post is not accurate. Based on numerous professional reviews, the colors of the new Sammys are more accurate than the new Pannys, whereas Panny has better black levels. Overall PQ is pretty close, with many preferring the Sammy (rated slightly better, for example, in a recent shootout at Value Electronics, after professional calibrations). Let's at least be somewhat objective here (otherwise, this thread will just turn into a pissing match between the loyalists).

For the opening poster not the drunkard.

The Panasonic is more accurate for colour, has higher motion resolutionFalse and false. The Samsung B860 has far more accurate colors than ANY Panasonic.

stronger natural contrast and nicer gradation of colours and greys.I'm not sure what Samsung you think you are talking about, but the 860 is much better in grayscale and gamma compared to any Panasonic. The only thing a Panasonic has over a Samsung at this point is black levels.

To top it off the anti glare coating on the Panasonic is marginally better. No it isn't.

That's like walking into a bar half filled with Yankee fans and half filled with Boston fans and asking which team is better. There are some very strong feelings on both sides.



Now that's an analogy I can appreciate...being from New York and married to a girl from Boston. Of course I root for the Mets :)

The trouble I have w/ the various owners' threads is that you don't get objective comparisons between the displays, although obviously there is a ton of good info in those threads. I am trying to understand what others who faced a similar decision decided to do and why.

The V10 is Panny's high-end model, correct (excluding the Z1)? What is the difference b/t the V10 and the G10 and G15? Regardless of what I do in the family room, I think there's a good chance I get a 46G10 for my bedroom where I have no glare issues, etc.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

As I mentioned above, the glare is a critical factor for me. Seems like there are conflicting views on which display handles it better - maybe neither one is better. I guess what I really care about is will both be acceptable? I don't plan on doing a ton of daytime viewing - just on the weekends. But, depending on where I mount the thing, the side of the room with the windows could be directly behind the couch projecting onto the wall w/ the display. I don't think there is a ton of direct light but there will be some. I am hoping to be able to mount it on my fireplace in which case the windows will be on the side of the display.

Keep the posts coming. This is very helpful. Obviously I will need to spend some serious time evaluating both displays but I want to go into this armed with as many "facts" as possible.

Answering your glare concern is inherently subjective without knowing the exact situation in your room, your tolerance and what kind or programming you watch. I currently have a 4 year old Panasonic in a room literally filled with winodws on almost every surface. The TV screen faces West so I get afternoon to evening sun, sometimes direct. If I am getting direct sun with no blinds, then yeah I can get distracting glare. if I close the blinds (they are nothing special, definitely not blackouts -- really they are the worst, that thin materia that still lets light through), it becomes a non-issue (i.e. you don't notice it unless you're looking for it) except on really dark scenes. Without the direct sun, its a non-issue. And unless you have a light directly behind you when viewing or directly pointed at the TV, I doubt that will be an issue either.

And the anti-glare in both the models you are looking at is several generations newer than what I've been dealing with, plus my 4 year old set almost certainly isn't as bright as these 2009 models.

In any event, the anti-glare between these two you asked about is very close to comparable by most reviews, so I don't think either has a definitive advantge to tip the scales.

Good luck with your decision.

Thanks Citivas. Very helpful.

I appreciate how difficult it is to answer these questions w/o seeing the actual room. Truth is I'm not even sure how the light works in this room. Just bought this house (closing in a couple of weeks and moving in a few months) and in all the days we have been in the house looking around, etc it has never been truly sunny. I need to go up there and spend some time on a sunny day and see how the light hits.

But knowing there isn't a big edge one way or the other b/t these two displays is kind of what I was looking for.

I was pretty sold on LCDs for this reason but it seems like a lot of the newer Samsung LCDs have glossy screens as well, particularly the Luxias.

The Kuros have an light sensing function that can adjust the brightness depending on the ambient light, correct? Do either the Panny or the Sammy have a comparable feature?

Now that's an analogy I can appreciate...being from New York and married to a girl from Boston. Of course I root for the Mets :)

The trouble I have w/ the various owners' threads is that you don't get objective comparisons between the displays, although obviously there is a ton of good info in those threads. I am trying to understand what others who faced a similar decision decided to do and why.

The V10 is Panny's high-end model, correct (excluding the Z1)? What is the difference b/t the V10 and the G10 and G15? Regardless of what I do in the family room, I think there's a good chance I get a 46G10 for my bedroom where I have no glare issues, etc.


Yes, the V10 is the top model but for the Z which has the same processing but a better screen coating (and is wicked thin of course). The G10 by most accounts is almost as good (and by some accounts, interestingly, slightly better) in terms of black levels, color, etc. I didn't do a deep dive on the G because I wanted 58" or larger, so I'll defer to others to offer better differentiation with the V's.

The trouble even with comparing these side-by-side in a store or getting the opinion of someone who did is you just can't count on the store setups to do the sets justice. I saw the V10 (54") and 860 next to each other this week (as well as the Pio 151 and Panny's 2008 850's). In that store line-up, the Samsung was the one capturing everyone’s attention. I saw one sold in the time I was there and another guy working on his wife (who had come in thinking LCD btw). Even the Pio looked weak next to it. But that means nothing because the sets were not fairly calibrated. That's why reviews from sources that take the time to fully calibrate (with equipment to objectively read the results) are useful. There are already a decent # of these calibrated reviews and comparisons for both sets, including the recent shoot out. I'm pretty sure I have read most, and as I posted earlier the results are more or less a wash between the 2009 Sammy's and the V10's (with Pioneer still consistently remaining the favored "reference" set). Most of the reviews give some categories to one and others to the other. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is not talking facts but bias or pure opinion.

That said, it will come down to your personal opinion – what set speaks to you either on picture or the non-PQ related features. That’s what has driven me to Samsung. I own a Panasonic now and took it as an article of faith that I would replace it with another, if I didn’t get a Pioneer. But the Samsung picture convinced me it has caught up and the other features (swivel stand, availability of the larger sizes now, cheaper than the comparable V series for same sizes, etc.) pushed me that way. You can’t go wrong with the V10’s though.

I was pretty sold on LCDs for this reason but it seems like a lot of the newer Samsung LCDs have glossy screens as well, particularly the Luxias.

The Kuros have an light sensing function that can adjust the brightness depending on the ambient light, correct? Do either the Panny or the Sammy have a comparable feature?

I don't think the others have the same light sensor but (and this is just my opinion) I doubt it is a really significant feature. In fact, I suspect many people turn it off as not to mess with the settings they establish. I defer to others to correct me.

Also my subjective opinion, but I would venture that the anti-glare advantage of the better LCD's over these latest 2009 plasmas is probably 10% at most -- it certainly isn't an order of magnitude better. What helps the LCD's more is their overall brightness versus plasma, which compensates for ambient light. But these latest plasma's are pretty darn bright.

False and false. The Samsung B860 has far more accurate colors than ANY Panasonic.

I'm not sure what Samsung you think you are talking about, but the 860 is much better in grayscale and gamma compared to any Panasonic. The only thing a Panasonic has over a Samsung at this point is black levels.

No it isn't.

All professional objective reviews point you out as wrong. Some here like Civitas seem to be on Samsung's payroll, the last thing on that persons mind is 'facts' or 'objectivity'. If you want the worst new plasma of 2009 go for the Samsung. The LG this year outperforms it and also has a THX mode and afew other niceties. Feel free to get the Samsung but dont blame anyone else once you figure out the differences in picture quality and low quality that Samsung are famous for.

Reminds me of the people who used to try and claim their crappy Samsung LCD was better than Pioneer. Abit like arguing your VW Golf is nicer than a Ferrari F430 to drive on a racetrack.

I am pretty sure the opening poster made his mind before hand regardless of the facts.

I am pretty sure the opening poster made his mind before hand regardless of the facts.

I absolutely haven't made up my mind...that's why I started this thread. I really have no idea what I want to do which is the problem. All I said was that I have had positive experiences w/ Samsungs before - I have a 32" LCD and a 50" DLP which have both been excellent displays. And I like the aesthetics of the Samsung over the Panasonic. But I recognize neither of these points are going to ultimately drive my decision. So I'm just trying to get smart on the positives and negatives of each since up until a few days ago I had done no research whatsoever on plasmas (I was planning on getting an LCD).

To be honest most of the posters in this thread seem to be pretty balanced and even keeled. You seem to be the only one who is adamantly in favor of one or the other. While it's good to have conviction, the way you bash the samsungs makes me question your advice since it seems that the consensus is that they are somewhat comparable to the panasonics.

So I am in the market for a large (probably 54" or 58") flat panel for my family room.
snip
The two models I was thinking about are the Samsung PN58B860 and the Panasonic TC-P58V10 (I guess the G10 in 54" could possibly work as well.

Here is what I seem to have gathered from snooping around:

1) Panasonics seem to have better blacks than Samsungs, although the new Sammys have pretty good blacks (certainly better than I would get w/ an LCD)

2) Samsungs seem to have better color and a sharper picture than Panasonics

3) The Samsung B860 has more of anti-glare coating than some other plasmas which may make it better for daytime viewing

I love the slim look of the Samsung and since I am concerned about glare, any edge there would probably be more meaningful to me than the difference between really good vs. great blacks.
snip
So which would people recommend and why?
snip
TIA
...Eric, your dilemma is a common one. i've seen the b850 (almost the same as the b860) and in my opinion it handles ambient light and glare quite well. many v10 owners have said that it handles ambient light and glare as well. cnet says that the v10 does better with glare, and the sammy models (at least those lower than the b8xx series) do better with ambient light. so honestly, i'm not sure there is a clear advantage on the light front for either set. in addition, the v10 probably gets brighter than the b860, but then again that brightness comes at the price of lowered contrast/washed out blacks. to be perfectly honest, there are only 2 things that have me leaning in the b860 direction (even though i was leaning toward the v10 at first): slim form factor (i'm sorry they are sooo beautiful, and the whole tv-as-a-painting thing is awesome), and availability at local outlets. notice that these 2 things are relatively superficial, so i could certainly see someone going the other way. anyway, these are my thoughts as of july 5th...

Thanks bowreign...actually just came across some of your posts in the Samsung owners thread - made it to pg 15!!

According to this post, the Samsung does quite well with ambient light.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16580115#post16580115

I'm with you...if the Samsung is as good or better than the V10 with ambient light then it just may be the form factor that sways me towards the B860. This is going in our family room so the WAF is pretty important here.

I was just comparing the two sets ( panny v10,50") & sammy 860,58") in magnolia store two days ago. They didn't have the same program running unfortunately. However, what I saw after a 10 minutes of comparison is that panny has better contrast,black levels etc. However, the picture looked noisier ( take this with a grain of salt as I don't believe any of those two sets were properly calibrated) . Samsung, on the other hand , was very pleasant to the eye as well as sharp ( and it was not in a very dark room like the panny) .
IMO, if sammy is in your short list, you should worry more about the buzzing complaints ( looks like some sets don't have the problem & some do).
Also, one user reported that if you wall mount the plasma & tilt a little, glaring is not at all a problem .The Sammy in the magnolia store was sitting with enough ambient light & I could see any glaring

All professional objective reviews point you out as wrong. Some here like Civitas seem to be on Samsung's payroll, the last thing on that persons mind is 'facts' or 'objectivity'. If you want the worst new plasma of 2009 go for the Samsung. The LG this year outperforms it and also has a THX mode and afew other niceties. Feel free to get the Samsung but dont blame anyone else once you figure out the differences in picture quality and low quality that Samsung are famous for.

Reminds me of the people who used to try and claim their crappy Samsung LCD was better than Pioneer. Abit like arguing your VW Golf is nicer than a Ferrari F430 to drive on a racetrack.

I am pretty sure the opening poster made his mind before hand regardless of the facts.

I own a Panasonic plasma, and have loved it for 4 years. I have yet to ever own a Samsung product (other than an old DVD/VCR combo player), though I will soon (if I get lucky with no buzzing). I have been consistent that I think Pansonic is great too and have said nothing bad about them. I haven't even said Samsung is better. So if anyone's on a payroll it would be you but I hold Panasonic in a higher regard than to assume they would employ anyone so lacking in credibility or maturity.

The problem with your statements is it is so easy for most readers here to know you're making it up because the credible reviews, comparisons and tests have all been widely linked from this forum and discussed. So most people have read them and know they don't agree with your fiction. I can only assume that your definition of "objective" is any review that says Panasonic is better, so its self-fulfilling. Off hand, I can't recall any of the major reviews that said the Panasonic was clearly better overall (as opposed to in specific categories that traded off) against the Series 8's, though I'm sure there must have been one or two somewhere.

I know I'm wasting my time with you, though, because you're not interested in reality and can't seem to accept that Samsung could be good without feeling like it diminishes from Panasonic, which makes no logical sense of course. Looking at your previousl posts it seems like you had a bad experience with Samsung and have a chip on your shoulder so perhaps that explains it.

I leave it to other readers to search this forum or Google for the reviews and decide for themselves. If they settle on Panasonic, that’s great, I’m sure they’ll have a good experience. But they sure aren’t going to do so because they found all the “objective reviews” saying it was clearly better. But if it makes you sleep better at night, its a free world so go on believing it. Whatever makes you feel better...

So I am in the market for a large (probably 54" or 58") flat panel for my family room. I was pretty sure I was going to go the LCD route since there is a reasonable amount of light in the room but I am really worried about off angle viewing. So now I am thinking plasma is the way to go. Would love to get a Kuro but can't seem to find them anywhere and don't want to spend 10k. So that leaves me with Samsung and Panasonic.

The two models I was thinking about are the Samsung PN58B860 and the Panasonic TC-P58V10 (I guess the G10 in 54" could possibly work as well.

Here is what I seem to have gathered from snooping around:

1) Panasonics seem to have better blacks than Samsungs, although the new Sammys have pretty good blacks (certainly better than I would get w/ an LCD)

2) Samsungs seem to have better color and a sharper picture than Panasonics

3) The Samsung B860 has more of anti-glare coating than some other plasmas which may make it better for daytime viewing

I love the slim look of the Samsung and since I am concerned about glare, any edge there would probably be more meaningful to me than the difference between really good vs. great blacks.

And all else being equal I would go with the Samsung as I have been very happy with Samsung products in the past. I'm not as big of a fan of Panasonic although I know they make great plasmas.

So I'm kind of leaning towards the Sammy B860 but really not sure.

So which would people recommend and why?

For the record, the LCD I was leaning towards was the Sammy LN52B750 or possibly the Luxia B9000 when it comes out. At first I was pumped for the LEDs until I read about edge lighting. Should I be thinking about one of these models instead of the plasmas above (I know this is the plasma forum of course).

TIA

Eric,

Thanks for starting this thread. As it turns out, I'm in exactly the same boat as you looking at both of these TVs and flip flopping almost daily on which one to get. Like you, after seeing the Samsung in person, it is a beautiful TV, both in terms of design and picture quality and I was leaning toward it. But the "buzzing" issue and Samsung's general reliability issues have me a bit concerned. Also, the THX certification, slightly better motion handling, more pictures options, and cheaper price for the 54V10 vs 58B860 had me leaning towards the Panasonic. In the end, both have excellent picture quality so that's a wash. The Panasonic just looks boring and dated to me (in terms of design) and I honestly was more impressed by the sharper pic on the Samsung when seeing them in person.

So like you I was leaning more towards the Samsung. I'll keep an eye on what others may contribute that may aid my decision. Thanks again Eric and everyone else who responded so far. You're helping more than one person with your suggestions :)

That's like walking into a bar half filled with Yankee fans and half filled with Boston fans and asking which team is better. There are some very strong feelings on both sides.


Well the Red Sox of course:D.
Now that's an analogy I can appreciate...being from New York and married to a girl from Boston. Of course I root for the Mets :)


I still have nightmares of the '86 World Series, as that ball rolls through BB's legs:eek:.

All kidding aside two great sets to chose from. I am seriously considering the 58B560 if Samsung comes up with a solution for the buzzing problem. The 58" V10 would be my next choice but the cost will be somewhat higher than the B560. I have had two Panasonic commercial plasmas and would stay with them as they have been problem free. But as with most everyone else cost does play a deciding factor as well.

Bill

False and false. The Samsung B860 has far more accurate colors than ANY Panasonic.

I'm not sure what Samsung you think you are talking about, but the 860 is much better in grayscale and gamma compared to any Panasonic. The only thing a Panasonic has over a Samsung at this point is black levels.

No it isn't.

what are your opinions on the lower level Samsungs, b450.

Sure. I was actually surprised there weren't more V10 vs. B860 threads out there. I have to say I'm pretty concerned about the buzzing as well. I'm on pg 17 of the Samsung owners thread and as of a couple of weeks ago the problem was still rampant. Wonder if Samsung has located a fix and newer units won't suffer from the problem. Still 10 more pages to go but I'm guessing the answer is no.

As one of the posters mentioned above that Panasonic's customer service was great, I actually had a similar experience with Samsung. When I first got my DLP in 2004 (I got the first batch of the HLP line) there was an issue with some of the light engines not functioning properly. I had a tech in my apartment the next day and they completely changed out the engine, a $1000+ part, no questions asked and they even calibrated my set somewhat. Whole thing took about 30 minutes. Meanwhile I'm still on my original bulb from that set 5 years later!! And I use it a lot. It is definitely starting to dim and needs to be changed but these things are supposed to last maybe 2-3 years. I ended up having this display professionally calibrated maybe a year after I bought it and have really enjoyed it over the years.

My other Samsung has had no problems whatsoever. So there is definitely some loyalty to Samsung. Plus I find that their products just look good / have slick menus, etc which all else being equal is a plus.

But if this buzzing problem is really an issue it could be a deal breaker for me. Not looking to actually buy the set until late August / early September so I have some time.

TCP54G10 is also a nice tv.....

In terms of customer service, I am not aware of any objective study that demonstrated that either company had some distinct advantage or that Panasonic has some gold standard. Certainly my limited experience with them was ok but not great. If there is a study or national survey result, love to hear about it. Otherwise I would chalk that up as user opinion.

I hear you on the buzz issue (no pun intended). It was the thing holding me up too, and I have still hedged my bets by buying from BB with an iron-clad return policy so I don’t have to get into a debate about whether my set is “defective” or “within acceptable specifications” if I do have a buzz problem. So the jury is still out for me.

I would note a few things about the buzz issue though from having read the posts here and elsewhere. First, for all the posts about it, it still is affecting (as in defined as loud enough to be a problem for the user, as opposed to normal plasma buzz levels) about 1-in-4 people who answered the survey. And the survey doesn’t show results over time so it’s difficult to know if that ratio is biased toward older/newer posters. As a rule such surveys will significantly exaggerate results versus the general public. If someone has a buzz issue they hop on their computer and google about it, (usually finding the AVS results on page 1) and join the discussion. To that point, there is a parallel thread asking about buzz in the current model Pioneer Kuro’s with almost the same level of people reporting it being a real problem for them (and a slightly lower percentage reporting no buzz than on the Samsung thread). So either Pioneer has a similar problem, or per the above the surveys are attracting disproportionate attention from people with a problem to begin with. It would be hard to argue that this is happening in one poll but not the other. Lastly, when you do get to the end of the buzz thread you will notice that some people have started reporting fixes from Samsung and others have noted that they believe the problem is not present in the most recently manufactured sets. I do not bring this up as definitive proof (I am pretty critical and will wait for more solid confirmation before I concede that point) but for your information since you mentioned it.

In the end my personal conclusion was if I liked the set best but for the buzz issue, it made sense to try it rather than get scared away for something that, statistically, was more likely not to be an issue than likely, knowing I could walk away if I was unlucky. I may be here in a couple weeks reporting I was unlucky; who knows.

Citivas - think I will likely approach this decision exactly the same way. Totally agree with your "adverse selection point" too.

Another reason to not purchase Samsung products:

http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/13/samsung-corruption-investigation-face-markets-cx_jc_1113autofacescan01.html


I absolutely haven't made up my mind...that's why I started this thread. I really have no idea what I want to do which is the problem. All I said was that I have had positive experiences w/ Samsungs before - I have a 32" LCD and a 50" DLP which have both been excellent displays. And I like the aesthetics of the Samsung over the Panasonic. But I recognize neither of these points are going to ultimately drive my decision. So I'm just trying to get smart on the positives and negatives of each since up until a few days ago I had done no research whatsoever on plasmas (I was planning on getting an LCD).

To be honest most of the posters in this thread seem to be pretty balanced and even keeled. You seem to be the only one who is adamantly in favor of one or the other. While it's good to have conviction, the way you bash the samsungs makes me question your advice since it seems that the consensus is that they are somewhat comparable to the panasonics.

It's actually a pretty simple solution for the OP. Go with the TV that gives you the best deal. You are looking at two of the best TV's available...not just the best plasmas, but the best TV's. You are not going to be disappointed in either choice, nor will you notice a lack of blacks or a lack or colors on either set. They are both excellent. The only concern may be the buzz some people have had and supposedly Samsung's customer service. I still wouldn't be afraid to give it a shot if it were the better deal. Do some research and find the best prices for both sets, and then go with the better deal.

snip
Lastly, when you do get to the end of the buzz thread you will notice that some people have started reporting fixes from Samsung and others have noted that they believe the problem is not present in the most recently manufactured sets. I do not bring this up as definitive proof (I am pretty critical and will wait for more solid confirmation before I concede that point) but for your information since you mentioned it.
snip


...i was thinking the same thing: it seems like the buzzing issue (although note that cleveland plasma, who has sold a bunch of b860's and is on the forums, reports only a single return) is being addressed by samsung on two fronts - the manufacturing side and the repair side. as you say, it appears the more recently manufactured sets have less issues with buzzing, and also more people seem to be getting a quick and easy fix done by samsung to their set if it buzzes. to me this means that on the build quality side of the equation, it gets safer every day...
but this is one point on which the v10 still has an advantage, in my opinion...

Good news, looks like the buzzing problem has been identified ( some users got their sets fixed by Samsung Tech as well) & resolution provided

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?misc=search&subaction=showfull&id=1246822649

If you are planning to get your display professionally calibrated, strictly on the PQ front, I would pick the Samsung B860 over the Panasonic V10. (Not considering any other issues, buzzing, customer service, ... etc.) The following may seem to be bashing Panasonic but I saw it with my own eyes with the two panels side by side (sandwiching the Pioneer doesn't help neither) at the shootout. I am just writing my own observation. So Panasonic fans be warned and stop reading now.







1, The V10 has significantly more motion resolution error on 1080i signal then the B860.
2, The white on the V10 is more yellowish than all other displays. The B860 is pure white.
3, The V10 color always looks like there is a minor overshadow on the picture. The B860 on the other hand is life like (Not LCD soap opera) vibrant and vivid.
4, On 0% to 5% stimuli patterns, the V10 is noticeably blacker than the B860 in a pitch black room.
5, The Gamma and grayscale on the V10 is not as flat and smooth as the B860.
6, The B860 allows a much higher precision calibration than the V10.
7, THX certification on a display is totally meaningless because it was no where close to a true calibration.
8, 600hz sub-field drive means a marketing plot that the PDP makers use to counter the LCD 240hz. Hear it here directly from the Panasonic Representative http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E27j-_j852o at the 6:52 Minutes mark.

Maybe because I have VERY high hopes for the Panasonic to carry the torch after Pioneer is gone, I am deeply disappointed :(. Panasonic fans, if you have read until here, I am really sorry. I can tell you I am totally bias when I walked in to that room for the shootout. I am expecting the V10 with the NeoPDP is going to kick Samsung, LG, Toshiba and Sony's rear-ends and may even match the performance of the Pioneer. Bash me if you like :mad: but this is my own personal experience and it does not represent anything other than that. I don't own any of the 2 displays so I can't tell you about buzzing, customer service, ... etc.

To the OP, if you want it safe, it would seem the logical choice is the V10. But the B860 is more than just a contender but a better display than the V10.

You can look at the top 5 plasmas in the store and the color of grass (easy to find sports) will be different on every set. But realize to see any difference in these sets you have to sit there and stare at it for a long time. So once you bring it home, either choice will be fine and it will become what you are used to. The main differences beyond the forever argued picture is that the samsung has a nicer looking cabinet with swivel stand, but that the reliability is a problem. Also, Panasonic has again delayed the 58-65 size.

SoSo....very helpful post. Kind of what I was hoping to hear.

What is the latest word on the 58V10? Don't need it until Sept or so but also don't like buying the first batch (see my samsung dlp experience above). That could be a huge issue for me since 58" is the size I want.

Panasonic traditionally won't release the 58" and 65" until late Q3 early Q4.

BTW Eric, the 58" V10 will NOT have the one piece of glass design similar to the 50" and 54". (http://ces.cnet.com/8301-19167_1-10137076-100.html)

hi eric,
It is always the best by your own eyes. for example me, i can never own any of Sony product, just that i am very unlucky to own even a single brand of Sony. I am sticking to Samsung as i have better luck and i am enjoying them, TV, DVD players, Blu-Ray players, and etc. Well, I am happy with my PN58a550, ln46a650 and 2333sw.

So i would recommend you to go for PN58B860
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-PN58B860-58-Inch-1080P-Plasma/dp/B0024NL4EC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1246896440&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0024NL4EC?tag=avs-forum-20)

" 2, The white on the V10 is more yellowish than all other displays. The B860 is pure white. "


I find this one very interesting. Last week I demoed a 50V10 in my home and I the one thing I kept commenting on was not how black the blacks looked but how white the whites looked. I definately don't need any whiter whites if it's possible. The blacks looked very good also.

But I was in standard mode. Maybe I could have gotten it to yellow with another mode. I'll have to try it with my 54V10 on Wed.

Ed

I'm in the same boat as you EricScott. I'll wait until I get to see both of them in store before deciding between the V10 and 860.

Here are my 2 cents or 10 cents. After deliberating for more than a month, shifting between a Sammy LCD (LN55B650), a Sammy LED/LCD (UN55B7000) and the two Models mentioned in this thread, I decided to go with the Panny 54V10. Having only seen the lower end Plasma models in BB and Costco/Sam's around here, I was a bit apprehensive about my decision.

I just received my TV today from Cleveland Plasma (nod to Chris). It's perfect for me in my Living room and in the initial playing around with the settings figured out why I didn't like them in the Big stores. There, they would set the TV settings at Vivid which is actually (well for me) a really bad setting than the Standard settings out of the box. Yes the THX settings seem a little dark (but I'll wait until tonight to pop in a Blue ray to check those settings out. I've not yet calibrated the set (initial euphoria, don't feel the need to, but I'll eventually come around to it) but I'm happy with my purchase.

I would personally recommend the Panasonic. I know nothing about the Samsung unit, but I will believe what others are saying & concede that it is a close competitor.

But Panasonic's customer service & post-sale attention can't be beat...by anyone.

I bought a TH-46PZ800U at the end of December 2008. A beautiful tv, it was my Christmas present from my wife. I'd never seen such a beautiful picture. It died on my wall a couple weeks ago. No warning.

One call to Panasonic Viera Concierge and I had a case # and the name & phone number of a local servicer. I called them. Two days later (would have been the next day, but I wasn't ready for him), a very professional, meticulous technician was at my house replacing a circuit board. Didn't fix it. Two days later, he was back replacing another. Didn't fix it. All this time he was coming after 5PM because he knew I couldn't take more time off work. Two days later, the Panasonic rep was calling my cell to tell me he was replacing the tv. Since I had the 800U, the V10 was the fair replacement series. To my advantage, the smallest available is 50". No problem. That's what I'm getting.

That situation will have me singing Panasonic's praises for a very long time, and will have me buying their products for just as long.

It's also why I just don't get why people are falling over themselves to buy a Pioneer right now. Panasonic makes such a close competitor, and they will be around next year. Pioneer is guaranteed to be gone. What then?

I'm in the same boat as the OP but this post probably just made my choice. I hope Panasonic and Samsung are watching.

So I finally found a Best Buy near me that had the 860 on display. And lucky for me, the V10 was directly above it (the 860 was a 58" and the V10 was a 50"). I got remotes for both sets and played w/ the settings a little bit. Put the Sammy in Movie mode and the Panny in THX. After staring at the cable feed and some Blu Ray content I really felt the Samsung had a better picture...just punchier and super sharp. Blacks on both sets look quite good. Overall they both looked great.

But what really sold me was the form factor. The Samsung was so thin and the Panny just looked big and clunky. I am going to wall mount this in our family room and there's going to be nothing else on this wall except for my Paradigm built-ins so this actually counts for something.

Lucky for me I had my BB Rewards Zone 10% off coupon so I bought the 860. I'm not actually taking delivery of it for 4 weeks b/c I don't want to start the clock on my 30 trial until I can spend some real time w/ the set and I'm not moving for a month. Even though I had to pay tax, the base price was comparable to what I was finding elsewhere (w/ the exception of Cleveland) but being able to return it if I have issues is a big deal for me.

I will say though that the 58" V10, which they didn't have in the store yet but which was in their computers, is only $2,699 - a lot less than the 860. But I couldn't help myself.

Will post back in a month or so once I actually get this bad boy and have had a chance to play.

Eric - I was in the same boat as you. I've been looking to replace my four year old early generation Samsung 50" (720P) plasma that is in decline due to a bad panel. So, I was planning to use the opportunity to move up to a 58" unit and was leaning heavily towards the V10 because of my disappointment with the early demise of my old Sammy and the research that suggests the Panny is closest to Pioneer in PQ. But the styling of the Samsung is superior and the swivel stand and ultra bright plus anti-glare features were very important to me for my placement in large family room with wall of windows facing the unit. I was also becoming very frustrated by Panasonics continued delay in delivering the 58" unit to market.
This week 6th Ave Electronics ran an ad advertising the Samsung 58" B860 for just $2,799. I don't like dealing with 6th Ave as a retailer so I checked with Best Buy (Holmdel, NJ) and they agreed to match the price. Walked into the store and compared the picture on 58" Sammy to the "50 Panasonic V10 on display. PQ was comparable - in fact the Sammy looked smoother vs a grainy look on the Panny. Of course I realize the store setting might not be ideal, but everything being relative I favored the PQ of the Sammy, not to mention the superior design. And, since I was committed to the 58" size and the Panny is only available on back order with projected delivery in mid-Sept I pulled the trigger and brought the Samsung at the bargin price of $2,799.
Got it home and set it up last night - no buzz, great picture (evern without being fully calibrated yet), and it looks fabulous on our family room console from a style perspective. Still waiting to see how the anti-glare performs in direct sunlight. Only negative so far is the audio from on board speakers which is really pitifully weak. Good thing I'll be playing it primarily through my home theatre system otherwise I'd be bummed. But all in all - I'm pleased with my purchase and we're off to a good start. Good luck with your decision but I'm sure you'll be pleased either way. PS: You may want to try to renegotiate your purchase price if you paid more for the Sammy.

Eric - I was in the same boat as you. I've been looking to replace my four year old early generation Samsung 50" (720P) plasma that is in decline due to a bad panel. So, I was planning to use the opportunity to move up to a 58" unit and was leaning heavily towards the V10 because of my disappointment with the early demise of my old Sammy and the research that suggests the Panny is closest to Pioneer in PQ......This week 6th Ave Electronics ran an ad advertising the Samsung 58" B860 for just $2,799. I don't like dealing with 6th Ave as a retailer so I checked with Best Buy (Holmdel, NJ) and they agreed to match the price.

The 58" V10 is on the BestBuy website today for considerably less than that Sammy.

Metmx5,

Thanks so much for the heads up. Was actually out on LI today and grabbed the 6th ave circular. Sure enough 2799. Goinng to BB tomorrow to haggle.

The 58" V10 is on the BestBuy website today for considerably less than that Sammy.

Yes, they have it on the BB website for $2,399 but earliest delivery date in my area is Sept 14th.

metmx5....real time update....happened to be at PC Richards looking at BBQs and they didn't have the 860 in the store but I asked the guy what kind of price they had it for. He said they were running an "employee pricing" program this weekend and that I could get it for (a little) less than the 6th ave price (trying to avoid having this thread shut down). So I bought it. Next stop is to BB with my PCR receipt in hand to either return my old one or get it for a MUCH better price.

Thanks again and enjoy you TV. I won't be getting mine for another month or so unfortunately.

So finally made it to BB today. Showed the guy my PCR receipt and he couldn't believe the price. Started showing all of his buddies. Anyway they agreed to price match it and when they put it in the computer I got an extra 10% of the difference off automatically. Plus their delivery charge is $30 less...so all in all I saved $75 off of the PCR price which I thought was fantastic to begin with. Plus I got it from BB and have my full 30 day trial period. Pretty happy camper.

Now I'm just hoping I don't get a buzzer :)

I am also trying to make this decision on these 58" models, while still pondering spending a few hundred more for one of the few KRP-600Ms remaining. I will have the TV professionally calibrated to reach its max potential. I plan to use the TV for about 70% Blu-Ray/DVD (primarily at night) and 30% DirecTV (mostly sports).

I understand the general consensus is that the V10 has darker blacks/shadow detail and the B860 has better color, but less shadow detail. I've seen both at a Magnolia, but they didn't appear to be calibrated and were running the store feed on component cable. Which would you all recommend based on my above usage?

If you say don't get either, find a 600M right now, would that recommendation change if I weren't able to afford to get it calibrated for a while?

Thanks for your input.

Has any one played games on the 860 I am a gamer as well as a huge movie fan, but I read that the lag on the 850/60 is a little longer. I was wondering if any one else plays games on it and how does it fair?

I would say whole lot worse than the panasonic V10 plasma

Has any one played games on the 860 I am a gamer as well as a huge movie fan, but I read that the lag on the 850/60 is a little longer. I was wondering if any one else plays games on it and how does it fair?

Hey darkcheez I have the lesser version of that tv (the PN50b650) and assume the input lag would be similar. With the TV outside of game mode, it seemed fine for RPG's and racing games to me, but was not quite fast enough for FPS. Turning On GAME MODE made a huge difference. I play COD4 on mine and gaming is a blast on it, no problems. Also no Phosphor trails to note, and while I can notice some IR on an all black screen after an hour or so of play, I have to be within a few inches of the set to see it, and it disappears quickly.

The Panasonics are faster for sure, but with GAME MODE on, its not a problem. Im hoping to get a CRT up this weekend and actually run a lag test on the tv.

I'm trying to decide between these exact two TV's as well. Video game lag is very important to me, so I'm using Rock Band 2's calibration feature to measure it in the following scenarios:

My really-old Sony rear-projection LCD Sony 720p TV
My friend's Samsung PN50b850
Tomorrow I am going to Magnolia Hi-Fi to test it on a the Panasonic 50" v10, and I'll post my findings.

In the meantime here is my lag data (I measured it several times, hence the ranges). All testing was done with component cables. The test results are from memory so that's why they're all rounded to the nearest 5ms :) I have a terrible memory when it comes to people's names or girlfriends' favorite foods, but for the stuff that really matters like this, I trust it :)

My old Sony:
25-30ms

PN50b850 with Game Mode off:
100-110ms

PN50b850 with Game Mode on, and Xbox360 outputting 720p:
45-50ms

PN50b850 with Game Mode on, and Xbox360 outputting 1080p:
55ms

It was suggested that setting my Xbox360 to output 1080p would allow the TV to avoid adding latency by having to scale the image to its native resolution. However the above data indicate this made little difference. The 5-10ms increase I attribute to human error, as the measurements are taken by having you press the "A" button at certain intervals, and the results can vary by 10ms.

I used component cables because I have 4 devices outputting component which run through a component switchbox. I have heard that HDMI adds lag but haven't measured it, so that's hearsay (I'd love to hear others' measurements on this).

Okay, well hopefully I'll post the lag results from the v10 tomorrow.

Hey darkcheez I have the lesser version of that tv (the PN50b650) and assume the input lag would be similar. With the TV outside of game mode, it seemed fine for RPG's and racing games to me, but was not quite fast enough for FPS. Turning On GAME MODE made a huge difference. I play COD4 on mine and gaming is a blast on it, no problems. Also no Phosphor trails to note, and while I can notice some IR on an all black screen after an hour or so of play, I have to be within a few inches of the set to see it, and it disappears quickly.

The Panasonics are faster for sure, but with GAME MODE on, its not a problem. Im hoping to get a CRT up this weekend and actually run a lag test on the tv.

When will gaming lag ever dissapear?
Then again, lets say you're playing a 1080p PS3 game like Virtual Tennis 3 on a 1080p set, since the resolution is the same and there's no scaling, would there still be lag. Most ps3 games are 720p, so there's scaling ivolved...Isn't this called scaling lag? Then there's my fav the Wii...I dont think i could handle the lag.

Blacker blacks(Panny), whiter whites(Sammy):eek: You'ze Guys aint making it very easy for a prospective plasma tv buyer.

I'll just be using it for watching tv(mostly movies) and Blu-ray. 50" is as big as I can go and I'm not worried about glare or reflections.

Seems to me that the 50V10 and the 50B860 are both good tv's but I'm kind of leaning towards the 50V10. I just hope I make the right decision.

BTW, there will be no home theater and in no way will the set ever be connected to a computer. No gaming either(I'm not a gamer).


Regards
Bob aka Videoz

Blacker blacks(Panny), whiter whites(Sammy):eek: You'ze Guys aint making it very easy for a prospective plasma tv buyer.

I'll just be using it for watching tv(mostly movies) and Blu-ray. 50" is as big as I can go and I'm not worried about glare or reflections.

Seems to me that the 50V10 and the 50B860 are both good tv's but I'm kind of leaning towards the 50V10. I just hope I make the right decision.

BTW, there will be no home theater and in no way will the set ever be connected to a computer. No gaming either(I'm not a gamer).


Regards
Bob aka Videoz


Ok...so 6 hours ago I was in the same boat as you...almost....I was looking at the 65v10 vs the 63b590.....
as mentioned in a different posting I had BB but them side by side...and when i was able to make my own adjustments to each the V10 won out hands down

before this I looked at 4 different BB's and for some reason the v10 didnt look right.....after i was able to make some basic changes to the v10 displays myself the PQ jumped right out....I am not sure why the BB's are not setting these up for the best PQ.....could be because they dont have many in stock to sell....

I may be bias now that I own a 65v10 (as of 4 hours ago)...:) but I think it rocks....

Well, I don't have the opportunity to compare them side by side, so I'll just have to rely on what I read here and also in online reviews.

I can tell you this, the leaning is getting stronger towards the 50v10:D




Regards
Bob aka Videoz

Well, I don't have the opportunity to compare them side by side, so I'll just have to rely on what I read here and also in online reviews.

I can tell you this, the leaning is getting stronger towards the 50v10:D




Regards
Bob aka Videoz

As many peopel have pointed out, it is a personal desision, there are many great sets out there.....

for me....you cant slap the smile off my face right now....:D

I want to point out one other thing....whithout all the great folks on this forum and the info I have read on AVSforum I would have been lost tying to make a dession on what set to buy.

I felt like I went in to this with more info then I could have ever hoped for thanks to AVSForum
I want to thank all the folks on all the threads for the great info !!!!!

Thanks guys!!! and Girls!!!!:D:D:D

Well, I don't have the opportunity to compare them side by side, so I'll just have to rely on what I read here and also in online reviews.

I can tell you this, the leaning is getting stronger towards the 50v10:D




Regards
Bob aka Videoz

My reasearch showes the 50v10 is even better due to "one" sheet of glass.

They have one at the BB i go to and it is a great tv....everything i have heard about the Panny it has a great rep

Samsung is the clear winner regarding everything...Except black levels, where as the V10 has slightly darker blacks, whoopie.

Personally I'd rather just drop the cash for the Samsung PN50B550

CNets review of the B650:
"Black level: Although not quite as deep as the blacks on the Panasonic and especially the Pioneer plasmas, the shade of black produced by the Samsung PNB650 was extremely dark, and beat the level of black on the two LCDs."
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-pn50b650/4505-6482_7-33573755.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

This is NOT a true statement. The blacks on the B650 wash-out in night-time viewing!

CNets review of the V10:
"Black level: The V10 exhibited the best black level performance we've seen on any flat-panel HDTV aside from the G10 and the Pioneer. In extremely dark scenes, such as the partial eclipse and night sky at the beginning of Chapter 20, or the shadows along the twilight temples in Chapter 21, the black areas and letterbox bars were darker than any of the other displays in our comparison, with those two exceptions: blacks were basically the same on the G10 and visibly deeper on the Pioneer, and compared to the LCDs and the Samsung plasma the V10 was easily darker. As usual, with deep blacks came a picture with more pop, realism, and impact in both dark and brighter scenes, and the improved light output of the V10 in custom versus the G10 in THX made the V10 seem a bit more impactful in our darkened home theater."

The B650 looks fantastic during the daytime, but starting one hour before dusk, the blacks become gray.

Consumer Reports states the blacks on the B650 are higher than they would like to see. Then the B860 blacks are a lot worse than the B650.

I returned the B860 and the B650 because they buzzed. However the poor blacks were significant and factored into that decision. I've ordered the 58" V10 from Panasonic.
Again shame on Cnet for falsely reporting poor Samsung plasma black levels as "extremely dark"! :mad:
They need to start providing constrast measurements to ensure consistency.

I would say look for whichever set gives you the best deal/price.

I am still absolutely in love with my PN50B650. I agree with HiFi, the black levels in a pitch black room are not amazing. Just ok. But honestly if you can manage to get a Samsung without the slew of technical problems some are reporting, they really are beautiful sets. I watch mine normally with some ambient light (theres a fishtank close by) and the blacks look very nice.

CNets review of the B650:
"Black level: Although not quite as deep as the blacks on the Panasonic and especially the Pioneer plasmas, the shade of black produced by the Samsung PNB650 was extremely dark, and beat the level of black on the two LCDs."
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-pn50b650/4505-6482_7-33573755.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

This is NOT a true statement. The blacks on the B650 wash-out in night-time viewing!

CNets review of the V10:
"Black level: The V10 exhibited the best black level performance we've seen on any flat-panel HDTV aside from the G10 and the Pioneer. In extremely dark scenes, such as the partial eclipse and night sky at the beginning of Chapter 20, or the shadows along the twilight temples in Chapter 21, the black areas and letterbox bars were darker than any of the other displays in our comparison, with those two exceptions: blacks were basically the same on the G10 and visibly deeper on the Pioneer, and compared to the LCDs and the Samsung plasma the V10 was easily darker. As usual, with deep blacks came a picture with more pop, realism, and impact in both dark and brighter scenes, and the improved light output of the V10 in custom versus the G10 in THX made the V10 seem a bit more impactful in our darkened home theater."

The B650 looks fantastic during the daytime, but starting one hour before dusk, the blacks become gray.

Consumer Reports states the blacks on the B650 are higher than they would like to see. Then the B860 blacks are a lot worse than the B650.

I returned the B860 and the B650 because they buzzed. However the poor blacks were significant and factored into that decision. I've ordered the 58" V10 from Panasonic.
Again shame on Cnet for falsely reporting poor Samsung plasma black levels as "extremely dark"! :mad:
They need to start providing constrast measurements to ensure consistency.

Speak for yourself. The black level on my calibrated 590 has been measured in the same range as the current Panasonics. It doesn't look washed out in a completely dark room (which is how we watch it most nights). Or, check out the pictures on the 850/860 topic that another user posted that showed his blacks: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17207929#post17207929 . I’ve noticed that some of the reviews that comment on the blacks being just ok quote a black level that is almost 3x worse than what mine measured . So, yeah, if the best they got it too was so far off its potential, then their sets aren’t going to be great. Or maybe someone the other posters and me just got freakishly exceptional panels that are somehow way better than others, if you believe in such odds...

I'm trying to decide between these exact two TV's as well. Video game lag is very important to me, so I'm using Rock Band 2's calibration feature to measure it in the following scenarios:


Thanks for reporting - got a question though, were you using the manual calibration where you strum yourself or the photo-eye calibration using the RB2 guitar? I've never had much luck getting manual calibrations to work well for me so I don't fully trust them (no offense). If you're going to BB again see if they'll let you use one of their RB 2 guitars :D

" 2, The white on the V10 is more yellowish than all other displays. The B860 is pure white. "


I find this one very interesting. Last week I demoed a 50V10 in my home and I the one thing I kept commenting on was not how black the blacks looked but how white the whites looked. I definately don't need any whiter whites if it's possible. The blacks looked very good also.

But I was in standard mode. Maybe I could have gotten it to yellow with another mode. I'll have to try it with my 54V10 on Wed.

Ed

Wasn't the v10 at the shootout in THX mode? I could understand the yellow comment then -- there's definitely a tint to the screen. Personally, if I were comparing the V10 to a Sammy, I'd put the V10 in the Studio Reference mode. I think the picture (especially Blu Ray content) looks much better in that mode than THX.

Using the CNET settings, I definitely do not see a problem with the white levels on the V10. The wife and I watched The Two Towers recently, and believe me, we didn't see Gandalf the Kinda Yellow :) The color was quite white and bright.

I do agree that these sets are very, very close, close enough that you can't go wrong with either one. Trust your gut and, as long as you don't have any technical issues, enjoy your new set.

Well, here's another for what it's worth:

I have a Panny 46G10. Love it. It's in the bedroom, I've done my own calibration, no complaints about it at all. Completely quiet - It's in a bedroom where we'd notice the slightest of noises.

But for the den, I decided to go with a Samsung. From my homework, I thought I would get more accurate color and also some calibration capabilities I don't have on my G10. My brother also has Samungs and likes them. So - I went in expecting nothing but good. And then I could argue both sides, since I'd be a Panny and a Sammy owner! ;)

Got a B850. Set it up, picture was good, without the two TVs being side by side I can't tell you it was remarkably better or worse than my Panasonic G10. But I also had not gone in and calibrated it yet either. And didn't calibrate it, because...

The damned buzzing. Yeah, if I had it turned up it masked it, but during quiet moments you could easily hear it. Now, I'm pretty anal retentive about things like this - once I hear it, I ALWAYS hear it and it drives me batty. But my wife is more of the "oh, don't worry about it, it's not so bad" school - but it drove her crazy too. Nothing I could do could eliminate the buzz. Contrary to the link above, this was clearly not a rubber feet or whatever thing. Called Samsung. Basically, all I got from them was "oh, ALL plasma TVs do that, it's just part of the technology, you'll get used to it and then you won't hear it any more." When I told them other plasmas don't do it, they tried to argue with me. So I took the phone and put it next to the Sammy. "Hear that?" Then I walked into the bedroom and put it next to my G10. "Hear that? Or better yet, don't hear anything?"

So they sent someone out, he basically said, yeah, this is common for these Samsungs, couldn't fix it. So they replaced it. Another B850. Same buzz, maybe even worse.

I came back here and read the entire thread dedicated to Samsung buzzing. Decided the heck with it, bought a Panasonic.

It dissapointed me, because I have read very good things about the Samung PQ, and I would have liked to have had one of each, but for me, a non-stop buzzing noise is just intolerable. I know some people get sets and don't hear it, but it's prevelant enough you have entire threads on the issue on AV forums and you see articles on AV web sites about it. So I guess it's a bit of a lottery whether you get it or not.

Consumers Reports on Samsung B650 and B860 black level:
"Black levels were generally good, though a bit bright on the darkest scenes."

Home Theater magazine on the Samsung B860:
"The Samsung plasma falls short of the state of the art (see HT Labs Measures). There is an odd twist that sometimes (but not always) drives the set’s black level to nearly off in immediate transitions from a bright scene to black. Still, the black level is most often a lighter gray than I’ve seen on many recent sets—even LCDs.
Conclusions

If, like me, you watch movies in the dark and are a nut for the deepest, darkest blacks you can get from scenes with little or no inherent contrast (even if such scenes are relatively rare in most films), this might not be your ideal HDTV.
...
Samsung’s new UN55B7000 LED-backlit LCD HDTV (HT, August 2009) had a measured black level of 0.002 foot-lamberts—literally an order of magnitude better than the B860."
http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/samsung_pn50b860_plasma_hdtv/index2.html

A milky hazy substituted for black is not high-fidelity. Either there are huge sample to sample variations, or Cnet called it wrong and their reputation is tarnished. That is the reality today.
Again CNet needs to start providing simple light measurements on how dark and how bright a display goes.
D-Nice also measured a very high level for the Samsungs during the shootout. I too, at that time, could not believe how poor it was. But I can verify that all sources are stating the truth.

In conclusion if you want black levels an order of magnitude poorer than Samsung own LCD's, then by all means go for the Samsung plasma.
Note: the B650 picture quality is without a doubt, simply glorious during the daytime.

Again: Cnet please start publishing black level measurements so consumers are not further misled. :)

Well, I don't have the opportunity to compare them side by side, so I'll just have to rely on what I read here and also in online reviews.

I can tell you this, the leaning is getting stronger towards the 50v10:D




Regards
Bob aka Videoz

Bob - I have not seen the Samsung with it's 24p picture mode, the sets do look nice in the store. I purchased the 50V10 last month mainly because of the 96hz/24p playback mode for blu-ray movies. I have not been disappointed at all. I also purchase the Panasonic BD60 Blu-Ray player that will let you output DVD's at 24p also. I thought this was probably a gimmick, but it really works as advertised. As a whole extra layer of depth to some of the good DVD's in my collection.

No slam on the Samsung, but high praise for the unit I have in my home.

Consumers Reports on Samsung B650 and B860 black level:
"Black levels were generally good, though a bit bright on the darkest scenes."

Home Theater magazine on the Samsung B860:
"The Samsung plasma falls short of the state of the art (see HT Labs Measures). There is an odd twist that sometimes (but not always) drives the set’s black level to nearly off in immediate transitions from a bright scene to black. Still, the black level is most often a lighter gray than I’ve seen on many recent sets—even LCDs.
Conclusions

If, like me, you watch movies in the dark and are a nut for the deepest, darkest blacks you can get from scenes with little or no inherent contrast (even if such scenes are relatively rare in most films), this might not be your ideal HDTV.
...
Samsung’s new UN55B7000 LED-backlit LCD HDTV (HT, August 2009) had a measured black level of 0.002 foot-lamberts—literally an order of magnitude better than the B860."
http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/samsung_pn50b860_plasma_hdtv/index2.html

A milky hazy substituted for black is not high-fidelity. Either there are huge sample to sample variations, or Cnet called it wrong and their reputation is tarnished. That is the reality today.
Again CNet needs to start providing simple light measurements on how dark and how bright a display goes.
D-Nice also measured a very high level for the Samsungs during the shootout. I too, at that time, could not believe how poor it was. But I can verify that all sources are stating the truth.

In conclusion if you want black levels an order of magnitude poorer than Samsung own LCD's, then by all means go for the Samsung plasma.
Note: the B650 picture quality is without a doubt, simply glorious during the daytime.

Again: Cnet please start publishing black level measurements so consumers are not further misled. :)

Here's my data for the 590 as calibrated by D-Nice. So that puts me one up on CNet I guess in terms of dealing with hard facts...

Note, the minimum black level is 0.0088 fL (or roughly 0.03 cd/M^2), which is in the range D-Nice says he has measured on the G10's.

So the data says the blacks are good. The eyes of anyone who watched my set in the dark at night says the blacks are great. I think collectively I’ll rely on that versus some reviews from sources that don’t provide post their calibration details. To each their own…

AAArrrrgggghhhh!!!!! I'm slowly going crazy here in the lovely metropolis of Niagara Falls NY. I've read post after post in this thread and also in the other threads about these two Plasmas til I'm about to pull all my hair out:eek::eek:

You know what:confused: I'm no closer to making a decision than I was two days ago:(

I'm in desperate need of some serious help before I have myself officially committed to the funny farm:D

Panny vs Sammy, Panny vs Sammy, Panny vs Sammy. What's a Guy to do:D



Mazeltov
Bob aka the almost crazy Videoz.

I go back and forth each time I see one or the other. I don't think there is any definitive winner. However...

A new firmware that's floating around seems to have corrected much of the Panasonic's color issues. If it works as well as the early reports indicate, that'd put me firmly in Panasonic's corner.

I go back and forth each time I see one or the other. I don't think there is any definitive winner. However...

A new firmware that's floating around seems to have corrected much of the Panasonic's color issues. If it works as well as the early reports indicate, that'd put me firmly in Panasonic's corner.

That does it. I'm calling Cleveland Plasma right now;)



Mazeltov
Bob aka the not so almost crazy anymore Videoz.

When will gaming lag ever dissapear?
Then again, lets say you're playing a 1080p PS3 game like Virtual Tennis 3 on a 1080p set, since the resolution is the same and there's no scaling, would there still be lag. Most ps3 games are 720p, so there's scaling ivolved...Isn't this called scaling lag? Then there's my fav the Wii...I dont think i could handle the lag.

From what I've read, there are multiple types of lag:
* Scaling lag, as you describe. Although sometimes sets "scale" or move the image around anyway, and I've read that you need to use VGA to make sure the image is translated pixel-for-pixel, and hence has no lag.
* Interpolation lag. For those LCD's you read about that are 120hz or 240hz, that means they add extra frames by interpolating between two existing frames. You get lag because the set must wait for *2* frames to show up. That costs 16ms right there. Then they do a bunch of complicated processing to detect if the camera was panning, which way it panned, and how to draw the in-between frame. This processing is difficult and time-consuming, and that's why there's so much delay. Some LCD's have a game mode to turn that off (and some game modes don't). You just have to test.
* Image enhance lag - if sets are doing complex processing to remove noise, that might also add lag.

I'm trying to decide between these exact two TV's as well. Video game lag is very important to me, so I'm using Rock Band 2's calibration feature to measure it in the following scenarios:

My really-old Sony rear-projection LCD Sony 720p TV
My friend's Samsung PN50b850
Tomorrow I am going to Magnolia Hi-Fi to test it on a the Panasonic 50" v10, and I'll post my findings.

In the meantime here is my lag data (I measured it several times, hence the ranges). All testing was done with component cables. The test results are from memory so that's why they're all rounded to the nearest 5ms :) I have a terrible memory when it comes to people's names or girlfriends' favorite foods, but for the stuff that really matters like this, I trust it :)

My old Sony:
25-30ms

PN50b850 with Game Mode off:
100-110ms

PN50b850 with Game Mode on, and Xbox360 outputting 720p:
45-50ms

PN50b850 with Game Mode on, and Xbox360 outputting 1080p:
55ms

It was suggested that setting my Xbox360 to output 1080p would allow the TV to avoid adding latency by having to scale the image to its native resolution. However the above data indicate this made little difference. The 5-10ms increase I attribute to human error, as the measurements are taken by having you press the "A" button at certain intervals, and the results can vary by 10ms.

I used component cables because I have 4 devices outputting component which run through a component switchbox. I have heard that HDMI adds lag but haven't measured it, so that's hearsay (I'd love to hear others' measurements on this).

Okay, well hopefully I'll post the lag results from the v10 tomorrow.

Well that was a bit late, sorry. I measured the lag on the v10 (I couldn't find the game mode) from the Xbox360 over component, and it was 25 - 32ms. That was better than the Samsung, so I bought the v10. It hasn't been delivered yet so I have no statement on whether I'm happy or not, it was super difficult to ascertain its quality on the show floor, but I have a 30-day return policy.

Decision finally made. I'm going to get the Panny TC-P50V10. I was at my local BB yesterday and had a chance to look at the Panny 50G10 and the Sammy B850 which are virtually the same as the V10 and the 860.

The salesman said the two had been on for 6+ hours and neither one felt overly hot, just warm to the touch. I didn't get a chance to play with them using the remotes but I can tell you, the Panny just looked better.

I'd like to personally thank all who responded to this thread for helping me make the decision.

Now I just have to figure out what I'm going to do with a 40" XBR7 that I bought 6 months ago.


Thanks to all
Bob aka Videoz

So I finally moved and took delivery of my 58B860 for the family room as well as a 50G15 for the bedroom. The Samsung really is a thing of beauty hanging on the wall. Stupidly, the Panasonic has the HDMI inputs go straight out the back so you can't use a slim wall mount. So there is a substantial difference in how the two displays look on the wall.

I have definitely spent a lot more time viewing the Samsung since it is in the family room. Overall the picture quality is fantastic. Just using Movie and Warm 2, turned off Dynamic Contrast and basically rolling with the rest of the default settings for now. Unfortunately my set definitely DOES buzz which I'm not thrilled about (there was no buzz for the first day or so but then it started). I would say it is moderately annoying. If I didn't know to be looking for it, I'm not sure I would focus on it so much. When the volume is low you can sometimes hear it from the seating position (maybe 12' away) - you can definitely hear it if you walk up to it. But other times there is almost no buzz and with normal volume, even if there is, you can barely hear it. So if it doesn't get any worse, I'm probably gonna keep it. Still have another couple of weeks to figure it out for sure. But it seems that my buzzing is "normal" and not excessive. Although you keep seeing the prices falling on these sets and makes you wonder if stores are just trying to unload them. Maybe I'm just paranoid. Forgot to mention that I forgot to put the ferrite cores that came w/ the Samsung on the power cord and HDMI cable. Not sure if that will help w/ the buzz at all but I plan to put those on.

The G15 has a really nice picture as well. Really haven't spent a ton of time viewing it. No buzz on the G15, although you can definitely hear the fans whirring. VieraCast is pretty neat although kind of slow.

I guess my quick take is that both sets have a great picture. The Samsung definitely wins in the form factor and slickness (menus, etc) categories. If it didn't buzz I think I would be 100% satisfied. Since I'm experiencing the buzzing it is making me a little uneasy but probably not enough to return it. The Panasonic is perfect for the bedroom. Won't have to worry about it and even though it hangs much further off the wall it's not as important in the bedroom.

Eric
The Sammy 860 sounds nice except for the buzzing. If it were me I would not be satisfied as it would drive me up the wall. Even if I didn't hear it all the time, I'd still know it was there.

Remember, this is just my opinion but the 860 would be going back. When you pay top $ it should be perfect in every way.


BTW, I'm about to order a Panny V10. I just haven't decided on the 50" or the 54"

Who knows, maybe your buzz problem will calm down to the point that you won't notice it and that would be great. The Sammy is one beautiful looking tv.

Enjoy your new plasmas.


Regards
Bob

If you can afford the 54V10, you can probably afford the 58V10 if you look around for a deal. That's what I'm getting. Bigger is better.

I have been in the exact position regarding the Samsung PN58B860 and the Panasonic P58V10 and can say in my personal opinion the Samsung has a bit sharper PQ. I spent at least 3 weeks at a BB here in San Diego working picture settings in a side by side comparison of these exact sets and could get the color extremely close but the 58V10 looked to be just slightly out of focus - the best description I can come up with. However the best price I found for the 58B860 was $2289.00 w/free shipping @ Amazon.com - required a $390.00 discount coupon that expired 9/26. The best price I found for the P58V10 was $2065.30 via BING cashback at CentralDirect.com out of NY so make the best decision you can and I'm very certain that you will not go wrong with either choice. BTW earlier in this thread Samsung does have a fix for the buzzing issue and if you are interested the issue is a resonate frequency condition in the back plastic panel and the addition of a couple rubber dampners solves the issue. I bought the Samsung and will recieve it tomorrow.

Wow that's a good price for the B860. Enjoy it.

I have a potential buyer for my Samsung LCD 52IN LN52A750 1080P/120HZ t.v. I'm thinking of giving in and selling since the offer is right. However, I have had this t.v. calibrated and the picture is just so sweet on the sammy. I almost don't want to give it away. Would I be doing any justice by doing so and replacing with one of these Plasmas? I've never owned a plasma, but I watcha lot of sports and night time viewing. I'm wondering if the 54V10 is really worth trading up for...?

I opted for the Sammy 50" B860 for $1584 shipped to my door via Amazon. I got it right before the sale ended last Sat. on the 26th.

I bought a B650 for my sister and will see how they both work out once they arrive. Thank you everyone for your help.

BTW, if the Sammy buzzes, I'm gonna return it and snap for the Kuro 500M which is a little over budget. The panny V series is still quite a bit more expensive than either the sammy or Kuro sets. Overall, I'd have to say TV shopping has gotten exponentially complex since our last purchase of a 36" Panasonic CRT monster sitting in front of me on its last days of service.

One month ago I was in the market for a flat panel. Sammy or Panny I wondered. It is well documented on this forum as well as on others that the 09 samsungs have serious buzzing issues. I bought one as I thought.. it cant be that bad, now I am returning mine to get a panny, trust me, both sets have nic pq but the samsungs will buzz you to insanity. Go read the comments yourself my friend.... Get the panny

I was set on buying the Panny 58V10 when I saw it and the 58B850 side by side, same video feed, some sports HD channel. Everything was fine but the V10 had some serious blur compared to the the Sammy. Then I ask the sales guy to switch to SD tv. Argh the Panny was awful. Switch to blu-ray, both were awesome. Buzz yes for the Sammy. Can't they merge these two TVs together and just have the good stuff remaining????? Both flaws seem inexcuseable.

I was set on buying the Panny 58V10 when I saw it and the 58B850 side by side, same video feed, some sports HD channel. Everything was fine but the V10 had some serious blur compared to the the Sammy. Then I ask the sales guy to switch to SD tv. Argh the Panny was awful. Switch to blu-ray, both were awesome. Buzz yes for the Sammy. Can't they merge these two TVs together and just have the good stuff remaining????? Both flaws seem inexcuseable.

Just keep exchanging the Sammy till you get one that doesn't buzz, I was good it on the second try.... :D

Just keep exchanging the Sammy till you get one that doesn't buzz, I was good it on the second try.... :D

So there are ones that don't buzz? I think if it wasn't for the buzz, the choice would be clear. My friend has the 54G10 Panny and he also noted the poor performance with TV feeds namely SD. I can't believe that Panny engineers would have thought this was acceptable. There must be some sort of setting to fix this. Anyone have ideas?

So there are ones that don't buzz? I think if it wasn't for the buzz, the choice would be clear. My friend has the 54G10 Panny and he also noted the poor performance with TV feeds namely SD. I can't believe that Panny engineers would have thought this was acceptable. There must be some sort of setting to fix this. Anyone have ideas?


SD on my 65v10 is not bad at all. its easy watchable. that said. cablevision has been adding HD ch. left and right. most every SD broadcast is NOW shown in HD.

I purchased a 54V10 and grow more impressed by the day with the picture quality. I have about 90 hours on the tv now and have been breaking it in with full-size content. The tv is replacing a 20" Samsung CRT that has lasted over 12 years. I have a Samsung cell phone and will soon be buying the Samsung Omnia II through Verizon as soon as its released. I like Samsung as a corporation and really like their products. When I made the decision to buy a new tv I knew I would have to be open-minded and consider different brands. I liked the Pioneers but ruled them out because of their price premium. Great TVs but too rich for my blood. I knew my purchase would be between LG, Panasonic, and Samsung.

I ended up buying a Panasonic after a lot of research on AVS Forum and reading evaluation tests, from HD Guru, Cnet, etc. What sealed the deal was a Panasonic Z1 set up in a Magnolia store with a Sony demo blu ray disk on a Panasonic Blu Ray player. The demo disk really demonstrated the quality of the video processing and the panel quality of the Z1. I had read that the V10 series has the same panel and video processing/drivers as the Z1 so for me it was a no brainer. I'm sure the Samsung plasma is a great tv but I wanted to avoid the who buzzing issue. It wouldn't surprise me if Samsung and Panasonic beat one another year to year in terms of who has the best plasma, but for 2009 a lot of people like me are voting with their wallets and selecting V10s. One of the posters on the V10 thread emailed a Panasonic executive who said that the V10 series is their best selling line of TVs Panasonic has had in 5 years. Another thing I like about my 54V10 is that its sturdy and tough. I have it in an entertainement center built into a wall and am constantly pulling it out to connect and disconnect cables and the stand is very very tough. The big piece of glass gives me peace of mind as well. I purchased the Oppo BD-83 for my Blu Ray player and couldn't be happier. Best Buy price matched to the Panasonic EPP site (20% off MSRP) so basically I feel as if I got my Oppo for free. To all, good luck and be happy with your final decision. I know I am!!

I am very very brand conscious. All my video products except a couple are Panaosnic make. Panasonic CRT 27" first bought, Panasonic VCR, Panasonic 32" inch CRT, Panasonic DVD player, Panasonic Projector, Panasonic Blu ray player BD55K now Panasonic G10. Generally they have excellent QC. All my products worked great. I also bought couple of Philips DIVX players, OPP DVD player. I bought those because Panasonic did not have products to do the functionality of those players. Never owned a Samsung product in my life.

So there are ones that don't buzz? I think if it wasn't for the buzz, the choice would be clear. My friend has the 54G10 Panny and he also noted the poor performance with TV feeds namely SD. I can't believe that Panny engineers would have thought this was acceptable. There must be some sort of setting to fix this. Anyone have ideas?

More don't buzz than buzz. There's a real buzz problem, but it is affecting a minority of sets. I'm not dismissing it -- Samsung's response is pathetic -- but anyone telling you this affects all, most or even a majority of sets is just making that up and ignoring the poll results, responses from the vendors on returns, the fact that a majority of reviewers didn't note the problem, etc...

Stupidly, the Panasonic has the HDMI inputs go straight out the back so you can't use a slim wall mount. So there is a substantial difference in how the two displays look on the wall.




http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/37331.jpg

More don't buzz than buzz. There's a real buzz problem, but it is affecting a minority of sets. I'm not dismissing it -- Samsung's response is pathetic -- but anyone telling you this affects all, most or even a majority of sets is just making that up and ignoring the poll results, responses from the vendors on returns, the fact that a majority of reviewers didn't note the problem, etc...

Thanks for the re-assurance on the buzzing matter. I really like the Sammy B850, and wouldn't want to rule it out for this problem. Once again, my opinion has been swayed to the Sammy. Hopefully for the last time.
Anyone have experence with the Canadian B850 sets? Problems?

im looking at getting the new 650 or 850 model, I have last years a series in the 50 inch plasma 650 series with no noticeable buzzing, or what i hear buzzing isnt annoying to me maybe its because i have a big surround sound or just don't pay attention to it cant imagine it being to big of a deal or being deal breaker unless too annoying, i just remember people complaining about buzzing on last years model too, just wondering what everyone thought on that because im close to ordering a 2009 model samsung plasma

thanks jtimmy for clarifying that mine doesnt buzz even if does cant be half bad even on new ones if its more cant be much more im sure like all other plasmas the issues can be resolved with firmware updates

I received my 58B860 from Amazon and have approximately 50 hours on the set and have experienced zero buzzing! Even my wife who has exceptional hearing cannot detect any buzz. Our current viewing distance is ~14.5 feet, eyeball to set and will be ~16 feet when we have the built-in cabinet modified to accept the new set. We intend to have the set calibrated upon reaching ~300 hours but I have to say even uncalibrated the PQ is just short of incredible, day or night. I have tried calibration settings posted in the PN58B860 calibration thread and experienced a definate improvement. We do have some reflection from windows at the far end of the room but it doesn't significantly impair our enjoyment of the HDTV experience as our viewing is primarily in the evening. BTW I recently saw this set priced @ $2088.00 with free delivery from electrozone.com which is a fantastic price for this model.

I received my 58B860 from Amazon and have approximately 50 hours on the set and have experienced zero buzzing! Even my wife who has exceptional hearing cannot detect any buzz. Our current viewing distance is ~14.5 feet, eyeball to set and will be ~16 feet when we have the built-in cabinet modified to accept the new set. We intend to have the set calibrated upon reaching ~300 hours but I have to say even uncalibrated the PQ is just short of incredible, day or night. I have tried calibration settings posted in the PN58B860 calibration thread and experienced a definate improvement. We do have some reflection from windows at the far end of the room but it doesn't significantly impair our enjoyment of the HDTV experience as our viewing is primarily in the evening. BTW I recently saw this set priced @ $2088.00 with free delivery from electrozone.com which is a fantastic price for this model.

Congrats SemiEngr. It is an awesome plasma. Glad to see you're happy.:cool:

There is not.

Mine and all the newer models already have these rubber things and my set still buzzes like a swarm of bees.

Samsung says the noise is normal. B.S.

I am in the process of getting my money refunded now to get another V10.

I have owned two panasonic professional series plasmas over the past 4 years and I've been extremely happy with them. I've always preferred the PQ of a plasma over LCD (although I do like the new LED). I am upgrading my 50" 720p plasma in the living room and I love the Sammy 58B860 models; they're so slim and have great form factor. I'm not too concerned with the buzzing since I'll keep returning them until I get one that doesn't buzz but my main concern is lag when gaming. I've heard reports that the Sammy's have terrible lag which make certain games difficult to play.

Can anyone comment on lag that has experience gaming on the B860 panel?

I have owned two panasonic professional series plasmas over the past 4 years and I've been extremely happy with them. I've always preferred the PQ of a plasma over LCD (although I do like the new LED). I am upgrading my 50" 720p plasma in the living room and I love the Sammy 58B860 models; they're so slim and have great form factor. I'm not too concerned with the buzzing since I'll keep returning them until I get one that doesn't buzz but my main concern is lag when gaming. I've heard reports that the Sammy's have terrible lag which make certain games difficult to play.

Can anyone comment on lag that has experience gaming on the B860 panel?

The Samungs have a "game mode" (like their competition) which most people agree substantially reduces the lag to on par with the other major brands panels. There is still a slight lag but not enough to put off most gamers (for a causal gamer like me it isn't even noticeable). As with anything here, some experiences vary...