Hi all. I am wondering if anyone has experience with Remee products. I did not find too much information doing a broad search for 'Remee' so I figured someone on these lists would know. I am looking to diy some biwire cables and want to know if it is worth $200 for 250' spool of 14 awg 4 conductor Audioquest compared to the $85 250' spool of Remee brand cable? Both are CL3 rated with a white nylon sleeve. I would also use this cable on a long run out to my outdoor speakers where I do exactly no critical listening. My biwire runs are short (under 15') but still, I am anal and want the best quality for my $. I can afford the Remee and all the goods to make my wires now or I could wait a couple of months for the Audioquest (or comparable brand). Thanks for any input - I appreciate it!

My biwire runs are short (under 15') but still,

"Biwire"??

You are aware that there is zero evidence out there that Bi-wiring is meaningful at all. I wouldnt waste my time on audio magic like that but you can do what you want ;)


Outside of that just follow the science proved in this link.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Brands do not matter, $$$ do not matter, simply buy the lowest cost speaker wire that is rated for what you are doing....if anyone thinks there is a audible difference in speaker wire then I have $1000 for them if they can PROVE that they can tell the difference.

Yeah, I got some second hand speakers with no jumper from the low to high binding posts. The previous owner biwired and lost the jumpers, so I figure I might as well. A biwired 14 awg speaker is effectively a 11 awg wire run. The cost is negligible if I go with the cheaper stuff compared to 12 awg wire. I appreciate the input and it just backs my thoughts that with this short of a run it will make no difference. I am a tinkerer and basically need a diy project that will not take up too much space - this looks like a good candidate. I want to put together a $35 biwire pair that stacks up against the $300 retail cables that are out there. Thanks again!

By the way, this (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm) is a great article that I will be sure to pass on to fellow friends that are audio enthusiasts. Maybe it will save them some $.

Yeah, I got some second hand speakers with no jumper from the low to high binding posts. The previous owner biwired and lost the jumpers, so I figure I might as well. A biwired 14 awg speaker is effectively a 11 awg wire run. The cost is negligible if I go with the cheaper stuff compared to 12 awg wire. I appreciate the input and it just backs my thoughts that with this short of a run it will make no difference. I am a tinkerer and basically need a diy project that will not take up too much space - this looks like a good candidate. I want to put together a $35 biwire pair that stacks up against the $300 retail cables that are out there. Thanks again!

Ah, that makes sense. Please post your results :D

if the "jumper" is gone, just make a short wire jumper of the same speaker wire you are going to use, to connect red to red and black to black. You will notice not audible difference between 14 ga. and 11 ga. for a normal length run. Just run a two conductor 14 ga. speaker cable to each speaker and enjoy.

Speaker cables are like ice cubes. They're easy to make myself (I know some poor souls don't have the recipe). Or I can buy them ready-made to save some time, but I recognize that there's nothing exceptional about what constitutes good ones.

Yeah, I got some second hand speakers with no jumper from the low to high binding posts.


So make a jumper out of wire or metal plate, or get replacement jumpers from the speaker manufacturer.


The previous owner biwired and lost the jumpers, so I figure I might as well.


My car's previous owner wrecked it, so I figure I might as well. ;-)


A biwired 14 awg speaker is effectively a 11 awg wire run.


No it is not. A speaker biwired with 2 14 gauge speaker cables performs just like a speaker that is wired the regular way with 1 14 gauge speaker cable, since the current in each of the two biwiring cables is in different frequency ranges.



The cost is negligible if I go with the cheaper stuff compared to 12 awg wire.


Why not just buy a 250' spool of 12 gauge commodity speaker wire? Last time I looked, its about $85.

I thought about the 12 awg thing. I did mention that I wanted to use this for some outdoor speakers also, so running one wire instead of two 12 awg wires would be a little easier. But, not too much - so maybe that (the 12 awg) is the way to go. Ah, come on, doesn't anyone else like to waste some time making cables that look cooler and sound more impressive? Isn't it cool to say, yeah, this is biwired for your listening pleasure? I could make 'em look all cool and everything. OK, it is probably just a waste of time and money...

Thanks folks. You help focus my energy on things that might actually improve the quality of my system instead of just spinning my wheels.

So make a jumper out of wire or metal plate, or get replacement jumpers from the speaker manufacturer.

No it is not. A speaker biwired with 2 14 gauge speaker cables performs just like a speaker that is wired the regular way with 1 14 gauge speaker cable, since the current in each of the two biwiring cables is in different frequency ranges.




No bi-wiring is not bi-amping so both wire will get same signal, electrons are not that smart, you have to tell them where to go :D aka electronic crossover;) or after passive crossover

.
My car's previous owner wrecked it, so I figure I might as well. ;-)


You bought a wrecked car?:eek:

...
Thanks folks. You help focus my energy on things that might actually improve the quality of my system instead of just spinning my wheels.

Then that is good:D Speakers then room acoustics where you need to concentrate your improvements on.

No bi-wiring is not bi-amping so both wire will get same signal, electrons are not that smart, you have to tell them where to go :D aka electronic crossover;) or after passive crossover

Yes, but the current flow in each cable is limited to what the crossovers allow you to drive the speakers with. So, in essence, the cut off segment decreases by the slope of that crossover approaching nothingness at some point, no?

You bought a wrecked car?:eek:

It was repaired quite nicely by the time I bought it, and it hadn't been bent that bad... You've heard of Carfax, right?

No bi-wiring is not bi-amping so both wire will get same signal,


So far so good. Yes, the same voltage is applied to both cables.


electrons are not that smart, you have to tell them where to go


The speaker supplies those smarts. Think about it, the woofer and the tweeter terminals of the speaker have different impedance curves, right?

That means that when the same voltage is applied, different amounts of current flow, depending on frequency.

Remember that the impedance curve of each half of the speaker includes the effects of the relevant part of the crossover network in the speaker.

BTW I'm not talking pure theory here - I've measured this with real world amps, cables, and speakers. But, theory and practice agree, as usual.


The bottom line is that when you bi-wire a speaker, the speaker ends of the wire are not connected in parallel at both ends. They don't act together, but as separate wires with separate and different loads.

A bi-wired speaker connected with two 14 gauge cables very much acts like it is being driven by a single 14 gauge wire, not two in parallel.

It was repaired quite nicely by the time I bought it, and it hadn't been bent that bad... You've heard of Carfax, right?

Yes, and it so happens I also read the Jul 09 Consumer Reports about them and how good they really are:eek::mad:
p51, just in case you want to look. Hair raising:eek:

So far so good. Yes, the same voltage is applied to both cables.



The speaker supplies those smarts. Think about it, the woofer and the tweeter terminals of the speaker have different impedance curves, right?

That means that when the same voltage is applied, different amounts of current flow, depending on frequency.

Remember that the impedance curve of each half of the speaker includes the effects of the relevant part of the crossover network in the speaker.

BTW I'm not talking pure theory here - I've measured this with real world amps, cables, and speakers. But, theory and practice agree, as usual.


The bottom line is that when you bi-wire a speaker, the speaker ends of the wire are not connected in parallel at both ends. They don't act together, but as separate wires with separate and different loads.

A bi-wired speaker connected with two 14 gauge cables very much acts like it is being driven by a single 14 gauge wire, not two in parallel.


So explain to me with some really good explanations the difference between the two pictures sound wise or electrical if you start with proper sized wire, other then having an extra lengh of wire, there is no electrical difference since you are not bi-amping with 2 different amps the source is the same. This have been an on and on discussion and i declare oil snake alert.:D

http://avforum.no/forum/attachments/kabler/45105d1233503385-billige-bi-wire-kabler-17678d1173020204-hva-gjor-biamping-biwire.jpeg

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/fluance/wire

So explain to me with some really good explanations the difference between the two pictures sound wise or electrical if you start with proper sized wire, other then having an extra lengh of wire, there is no electrical difference since you are not bi-amping with 2 different amps the source is the same.


Please look at the attachment which shows more of the actual details of biwring. Both ends of the speaker cables are*not* hooked in parallel. Instead each is attached to a different portion of the loudspeaker's crossover, and that the crossovers are attached to different drivers.

So, there are no parallel connections of the speaker wires at the loudspeaker end, and the two biwired speaker cables are not connected in parallel, but are rather hooked up to two different things at the loudspeaker end.

Also, the crossovers are designed to connect certain frequencies to the respective speakers, but not others. Their function is complementary. So, if you drive the speaker with a low frequency signal, there is vanishing amounts of current also going to the tweeter, and vice-versa. This further explains why biwiring is not the same as connecting the speaker cables in parallel.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=147629&d=1247368228

Although, I do prefer the clear large ice cubes that some nicer bars have in my scotch rather than the typical small curved ice chips that are partially white colored due to the air trapped within :)

Speaker cables are like ice cubes. They're easy to make myself (I know some poor souls don't have the recipe). Or I can buy them ready-made to save some time, but I recognize that there's nothing exceptional about what constitutes good ones.

Please look at the attachment which shows more of the actual details of biwring. Both ends of the speaker cables are*not* hooked in parallel. Instead each is attached to a different portion of the loudspeaker's crossover, and that the crossovers are attached to different drivers.

So, there are no parallel connections of the speaker wires at the loudspeaker end, and the two biwired speaker cables are not connected in parallel, but are rather hooked up to two different things at the loudspeaker end.

Also, the crossovers are designed to connect certain frequencies to the respective speakers, but not others. Their function is complementary. So, if you drive the speaker with a low frequency signal, there is vanishing amounts of current also going to the tweeter, and vice-versa. This further explains why biwiring is not the same as connecting the speaker cables in parallel.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=147629&d=1247368228

So you still not getting the point, same source = same result bi-wire or not look again at my 2 pictures the terminals on those speakers are bi-wire capable, i do not need you to explain me how a crossover work i've been at school learning electronic, bi-wiring is pur BS to make you think you have better quality speaker nothing else. look again the mod i did to your picture and tell me what is the difference now because inside your speaker this how it look like ish ;).



http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm121/kouack/biwire.jpg?t=1247403379

Speaker cables are like ice cubes. They're easy to make myself (I know some poor souls don't have the recipe). Or I can buy them ready-made to save some time, but I recognize that there's nothing exceptional about what constitutes good ones.

What is amazing is than companies can actually make BAD ones and sell them as they sound (or taste) "different"! Bottled water in NYC, gotta love it.

$200 for 250' spool of 14 awg 4 conductor Audioquest compared to the $85 250' spool of Remee brand cable?

If both are 14 awg 4 conductor, they should sound identical. The cover on one may or may not be better than the cover on the other. I'd go for the $85 one :)

@kouack most biwire capable speakers are wired the way arnyk says.
Theoretically bi-wiring is different than using a jumper - in practice it seems to not make any difference.

Although, I do prefer the clear large ice cubes that some nicer bars have in my scotch rather than the typical small curved ice chips that are partially white colored due to the air trapped within :)

Funny, I prefer crushed ice (but I'm not really a big scotch drinker)

Crushed ice melts too fast while the large ice brings the temperature down without melting as much. Also, when you stir the large cube within the glass, it makes a nice resounding sound :)

As for clear ice (ice made from flowing water), its just nice when it is only the scotch that is providing the color to the glass :)

I do prefer smaller ice for gin/tonics, mojito, and other assorted mixed drinks (excepting the Rusty Nail) though, as the temperature goes down very quickly and the drinks become more "refreshing". :)

Funny, I prefer crushed ice (but I'm not really a big scotch drinker)

So you still not getting the point, same source = same result bi-wire or not look again at my 2 pictures the terminals on those speakers are bi-wire capable, i do not need you to explain me how a crossover work i've been at school learning electronic, bi-wiring is pur BS to make you think you have better quality speaker nothing else. look again the mod i did to your picture and tell me what is the difference now because inside your speaker this how it look like ish ;).


It is arguable whether or not it sounds different.

It is not arguable that it is a physically different connection methodology and not the same as two cables in parallel or one larger cable.

Crushed ice melts too fast while the large ice brings the temperature down without melting as much. Also, when you stir the large cube within the glass, it makes a nice resounding sound :)


To cool a drink you have to melt the same amount of ice. Crushed does
it faster. Eventually they both end up with cold scotch and water. Stiring
does sound and feel different with crush vs cube, so do what makes you happy :)

Is the cloud in ice just due to bubbles?

So you still not getting the point, same source = same result bi-wire or not...


Well grasshopper, it is you who are not getting it. If you do the math, biwirng *does* make a difference. I take it that they haven't taught you how to write and solve loop equations.

The point is *not* that bi-wiring makes zero difference. The point is rather that the difference biwifing makes is generally vanishingly small.

Another point, which you rasied and I keep failing to make you aware of is that the two bi-wired speaker cables are in no way identical to the same cables driving a speaker with the upper and lower portions joined together.



look again at my 2 pictures the terminals on those speakers are bi-wire capable,


Your picture sheds no new light. Other than being insulting, your comments seem to have zero technical content.


i do not need you to explain me how a crossover work i've been at school learning electronic(sic),


Apparently, you haven't yet learned how to write and solve loop equations, because if you did, you'd be agreeing with me. In the day, one difference between a university EE degree and a trade school diploma was that good universities taught people about loop equations. I'm not sure that is currently the case - as a lot of the things we learned in the old days have far less importance today.


bi-wiring is pur (sic) BS


Agreed in the sense that BW is effectively BS.

However, if you do your homework you will find that BW does make some subtle differences. If your speaker cable is shabby enough it can even make a difference that might be heard. This would be a crazy limiting case, such as using 20' for 36 gauge wire for speaker cable.


to make you think you have better quality speaker nothing else.


Grasshopper, I was probably explaining why BW is BS before you were old enough to operate an iPod.


look again the mod i did to your picture and tell me what is the difference now because inside your speaker this how it look like ish ;).



I see nothing but a messy plate of the obvious.

Here's a basic reference on loop equations. Please post again when you've actually done your homework.

http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/PY106/Kirchoff.html

Yup, I know how cooling works (a bit too well), but crushed ice cools at too fast a rate for my liking (for scotch). I want my scotch not cooled too much. Thus, less surface area on the ice is better for me. I like my scotch at around 60 °F. For me, this gives a good balance of aroma and flavor with minimal burning.

For good scotch, I won't use any ice at all. The flavor and aroma is just too good to waste away.

The white is from trapped air. Thus, making use from flowing water generally produces clear ice.


OP: just get the less expensive wire. Also, you do not have to run full lengths for both. Just make a 4" section of wire to bridge the terminals on the speaker.

To cool a drink you have to melt the same amount of ice. Crushed does
it faster. Eventually they both end up with cold scotch and water. Stiring
does sound and feel different with crush vs cube, so do what makes you happy :)

Is the cloud in ice just due to bubbles?