So I did ISF Day and Night calibration on my 111FD. Used Tom Huffman's patterns (thanks Tom), REC601 for my SD DVD player. HDMI input, player outputting 1080i into the display.

Day came out pretty good, some additional work needed for the color points, but it clocked in pretty easy with no 9 point adjustment needed for what you see. Night, however, was a real pain. I got grayscale and the RGB High / Low dialed in pretty good, but my gamma is a mess. And trying to fix it with the 9 point control started getting me worried. I was setting pretty large values to move the gamma numbers only a little bit, it seems. And all it did was begin to screw up other stuff. Need advice on what to do here.

Attachments in order are:


ISF Day V2 Report
ISF Night V2 Report
ISF Night Grayscale


The ISF Night charts are with the 9 point gammas untouched. Oh, and this is with ControlCAL and CalMAN running a Chroma5.

So I did ISF Day and Night calibration on my 111FD. Used Tom Huffman's patterns (thanks Tom), REC601 for my SD DVD player. HDMI input, player outputting 1080i into the display.

Day came out pretty good, some additional work needed for the color points, but it clocked in pretty easy with no 9 point adjustment needed for what you see. Night, however, was a real pain. I got grayscale and the RGB High / Low dialed in pretty good, but my gamma is a mess. And trying to fix it with the 9 point control started getting me worried. I was setting pretty large values to move the gamma numbers only a little bit, it seems. And all it did was begin to screw up other stuff. Need advice on what to do here.

Attachments in order are:


ISF Day V2 Report
ISF Night V2 Report
ISF Night Grayscale


The ISF Night charts are with the 9 point gammas untouched. Oh, and this is with ControlCAL and CalMAN running a Chroma5.To be honest neither one of your ISF modes has an acceptable gamma. You ISF-Day appears to be around 2.1 with some dips into the 2.0 range from 40-70% stimuli. Your ISF-Night is much more severe. As I've said before, you cannot leave the 9 point gamma controls at their default positions on 2009 Pioneer Elites, Signature or... now KRP displays. You are going to have to play with that gamma controls. It is a lot more work, but you can get a completely flat gamma with those controls without harming your grayscale.

Start by using D-Nice's settings here...

Pioneer Elite 111FD ISF-Day Reference Settings

Picture Settings:
AV Selection: ISF-Day
Contrast: 36
Brightness: 0
Color: +3
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -15

Pure Cinema: 2 (Advance)
Black Level: 0 (Off)
CTI: 0 (Off)
Color Space: 2
Color Temp: 6 (Manual)

ACL: 0 (Off)
3DYC: 2 (Mid)
I-P Mode: 2
Text Optimization: 0 (Off)
Intelligent Mode: 0 (Off)
DRE Picture: 0 (Off)

Enhancer Mode: 1
Block NR: 0 (Off)
3DNR: 0 (Off)
Field NR: 0 (Off)
Mosquito NR: 0 (Off)

Power Save Mode: Off
Orbiter: Mode 2

RGB Controls
R High: -2
G High: 0
B High: +3
R Low: -1
G Low: 0
B Low: 0

Color Management
R: -1
Y: +1
G: 0
C: -1
B: +1
M: -1

Gamma
10%R -1
10%G -1
10%B -1
20%R -1
20%G -1
20%B -1
30%R -1
30%G -1
30%B -1
40%R -1
40%G -1
40%B -1
50%R -1
50%G -1
50%B -1
60%R -1
60%G -1
60%B -1
70%R -1
70%G -1
70%B -1
80%R -1
80%G -1
80%B -1
90%R -1
90%G -1
90%B -1

& Night

Pioneer Elite 111FD ISF-Night Reference Settings

Picture Settings:
AV Selection: ISF-Night
Contrast: 18
Brightness: 0
Color: +3
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -15

Pure Cinema: 2 (Advance)
Black Level: 0 (Off)
CTI: 0 (Off)
Color Space: 2
Color Temp: 6 (Manual)

ACL: 0 (Off)
3DYC: 2 (Mid)
I-P Mode: 2
Text Optimization: 0 (Off)
Intelligent Mode: 0 (Off)
DRE Picture: 0 (Off)

Enhancer Mode: 1
Block NR: 0 (Off)
3DNR: 0 (Off)
Field NR: 0 (Off)
Mosquito NR: 0 (Off)

Power Save Mode: Off
Orbiter: Mode 2

RGB Controls
R High: -3
G High: 0
B High: +3
R Low: 0
G Low: 0
B Low: 0

Color Management
R: +1
Y: +1
G: +1
C: 0
B: +2
M:-2

Gamma
10%R -1
10%G -1
10%B -1
20%R -1
20%G -1
20%B -1
30%R -1
30%G -1
30%B -1
40%R -1
40%G -1
40%B -1
50%R -1
50%G -1
50%B -1
60%R -1
60%G -1
60%B -1
70%R -1
70%G -1
70%B -1
80%R -1
80%G -1
80%B -1
90%R -1
90%G -1
90%B -1

I am also a seasoned calibrator and can attest to the accuracy of the image color points and gamma curve with these settings.

So start with these and do minor changes with your own Colorimeter for greyscale.

To be honest neither one of your ISF modes has an acceptable gamma. You ISF-Day appears to be around 2.1 with some dips into the 2.0 range from 40-70% stimuli. Your ISF-Night is much more severe. As I've said before, you cannot leave the 9 point gamma controls at their default positions on 2009 Pioneer Elites, Signature or... now KRP displays. You are going to have to play with that gamma controls. It is a lot more work, but you can get a completely flat gamma with those controls without harming your grayscale.

I understand. I know ISF Night just blows, but I guess I was at least initially happy with Day coming out reasonably, knowing additional work would be required. I did Night first and was getting very frustrated. I think maybe I need to start from scratch with Night.

I need a good primer on how the gamma controls work on the 9G. I'm not sure if - like CMS - gamma adjustment should not extend beyond a given recommended range. In your workflow, you recommend starting with Green, then Red, and then Blue. But does this mean keep cranking on Green until some movement occurs? In an ideal case should we try to keep the R-G-B gamma adjustments within one or two "clicks" of each other? I got to 3 and 4 clicks on Green, not seeing much movement, and started wondering how far I should expect to have to go before seeing things move.

When looking at the Grayscale and Gamma adjustment window in CalMAN, should I try to keep the target within the bullseye area while trying to get to 2.20, or do I try to get the gamma value regardless of what happens in the bullseye? IOW, deal with the bullseye afterward.

Am I correct in assuming the gamma points (1-9) in ControlCAL linearly correspond to the 10%-90% stimulus patterns?

I am also a seasoned calibrator and can attest to the accuracy of the image color points and gamma curve with these settings.

So start with these and do minor changes with your own Colorimeter for greyscale.

SOWK, D-Nice had already indicated these values were from a 111FD which was manufactured in 2008. He's also told us the the ones manufactured in 2009 (which mine is) would probably not calibrate out the same way. I can attest that this is the case at least for the RGB High/Low. My R-H is -1 and R-L is 0. B-H is +6 (ISF Day). I tried D-Nice's settings, knowing what he had already said, and was nowhere close to an accurate grayscale. So I figured I'd have to plow forward more or less in new territory using his well-proven workflow.

So after being worried about whether I had a bad meter (another thread), I decided to keep working the ISF Day setting because it looked better than ISF Night as a starting point. During this I also upgraded CalMAN from 3.3 to 3.4, so I'm hoping this didn't do anything to how the measurements came out.

I wasn't expecting such an effect on my RGB Tracking after doing the 9 point gamma adjustments (I still haven't even gotten to CMS yet!). For those interested take a look at the ISF Day attachment in the first post. In this post I am attaching one of the v3.4 reports with much of the same information. This new version of CalMAN doesn't have quite the same report layouts as the old version, but for purposes of this discussion the pertinent information is there. Notice how my RBG Tracking went south as the gamma is now in the 2.21-2.24 range. I'm not sure, empirically, that I like what I see.

So do I defer to dead level RGB Tracking or super tight gamma across the range? As I said earlier (and as D-Nice already said) these 2009 built 111FDs (certainly borne out by my example) do not cal out the same as the '08s. For instance, D-Nice uses a Contrast of 36 to get a 100%W point of about 49 fL. I have to use a Contrast of 41 to get to ~48 fL. His RGB is

RGB Controls
R High: -2
G High: 0
B High: +3
R Low: -1
G Low: 0
B Low: 0

mine are

RGB Controls
R High: -1
G High: 0
B High: +5
R Low: 0
G Low: 0
B Low: 0

which gave me a nice flat RGB line before I started the 9 point gamma. And after I was done with the gamma I could not retain the flat RGB, and my Delta E went to crap. I'm suspecting it's partly because D-Nice was able to get the gamma curve in line with all 27 points adjusted by the same amount in the same direction. I tried that and it didn't work. I have some intensity levels which required no 9 point adjustment and some which do, but they are not all the same.

Has no one else calibrated one of these '09 built 111FDs? I'm still working it, but some more advice would be welcome.

BTW, I did adjust the Brightness in keeping with shooting for an overall gamma of 2.25, as opposed to 2.20 the first time. But even with that I still had a flat Tracking line before the 9 point adjustments.

You have to know how and when to use the 9 point gamma controls. I can see from your charts that you are improperly using the controls.

What are your gamma settings?So after being worried about whether I had a bad meter (another thread), I decided to keep working the ISF Day setting because it looked better than ISF Night as a starting point. During this I also upgraded CalMAN from 3.3 to 3.4, so I'm hoping this didn't do anything to how the measurements came out.

I wasn't expecting such an effect on my RGB Tracking after doing the 9 point gamma adjustments (I still haven't even gotten to CMS yet!). For those interested take a look at the ISF Day attachment in the first post. In this post I am attaching one of the v3.4 reports with much of the same information. This new version of CalMAN doesn't have quite the same report layouts as the old version, but for purposes of this discussion the pertinent information is there. Notice how my RBG Tracking went south as the gamma is now in the 2.21-2.24 range. I'm not sure, empirically, that I like what I see.

So do I defer to dead level RGB Tracking or super tight gamma across the range? As I said earlier (and as D-Nice already said) these 2009 built 111FDs (certainly borne out by my example) do not cal out the same as the '08s. For instance, D-Nice uses a Contrast of 36 to get a 100%W point of about 49 fL. I have to use a Contrast of 41 to get to ~48 fL. His RGB is

RGB Controls
R High: -2
G High: 0
B High: +3
R Low: -1
G Low: 0
B Low: 0

mine are

RGB Controls
R High: -1
G High: 0
B High: +5
R Low: 0
G Low: 0
B Low: 0

which gave me a nice flat RGB line before I started the 9 point gamma. And after I was done with the gamma I could not retain the flat RGB, and my Delta E went to crap. I'm suspecting it's partly because D-Nice was able to get the gamma curve in line with all 27 points adjusted by the same amount in the same direction. I tried that and it didn't work. I have some intensity levels which required no 9 point adjustment and some which do, but they are not all the same.

Has no one else calibrated one of these '09 built 111FDs? I'm still working it, but some more advice would be welcome.

BTW, I did adjust the Brightness in keeping with shooting for an overall gamma of 2.25, as opposed to 2.20 the first time. But even with that I still had a flat Tracking line before the 9 point adjustments.

You have to know how and when to use the 9 point gamma controls. I can see from your charts that you are improperly using the controls.

What are your gamma settings?

Oh, I have no doubt I'm not getting this right. Here are the settings and the measured gamma for each intensity:

Gamma
10%R 0
10%G 0, 2.2549
10%B 0
20%R -1
20%G -1, 2.2529
20%B -1
30%R -1
30%G -1, 2.2410
30%B -1
40%R -1
40%G -1, 2.2415
40%B -1
50%R -1
50%G -1, 2.2230
50%B -1
60%R -1
60%G -1, 2.2053
60%B -1
70%R -2
70%G -2, 2.2328
70%B -2
80%R -1
80%G -1, 2.2410
80%B -1
90%R 0
90%G 0, 2.2442
90%B 0

Oh, and just because it's been asked, here's what the charts look like using D-Nice's recommended 111FD ISF Day settings. I suspect it wouldn't be much better even given the fact that this is for a REC709 space and I'm on a SD DVD player.

Oh, and I also finally figured out how to set up the Layouts in CalMAN so they look like D-Nice's. :D

bump... any help for a poor DIY-er?

I've not touched one of these so I am certainly not an expert. But with the 9 pt gamma controls you list, this should be a simple process.

You show separate RGB controls at each of the 9 points and Calman gives you a nice RGB Color Balance bar graph of the RGB relationship from 10% to 90%. So you should be able to tweak the red and blue levels to achieve a balance with green at every point. Calman, in the bottom grid, gives you the target Y at each point for the gamma you have chosen, be it 2.2, 2.3, 2.4. So you should be able to adjust your RGB controls together at each point to match closely the target Y value. Iterate as needed, and at the end of the process you should have a flat RGB balance with low error and a flat gamma.

I'm not sure it matters too much whether you start by adjusting just the green controls to match the target Y values for the chosen gamma, then adjust red/blue to achieve balance at each point, or achieve a color balance at each point and then match the target Y values. After iterating through the process, you should end up with the same result.

Hmm, I'll have to think about what you've said here, Bill. On the face of it it does seem straightforward, but in my attempts so far it's been interesting, to say the least.

Where, for example, would I go from here? I got a great RGB match and flatness before touching the 9 Point for gamma correction. Once I was done with that I got "decent" gamma correction across the range but it blew my RGB flatness. Now, even if I use the RGB Gains/Cuts to get the 90% / 20% points in line the RGB tracking between those two points still moves around a lot. Should I ignore the RGB Tracking completely when using the 9 Point controls and only focus on the Gamma for this? Should I only be using the Gains/Cuts for RGB Tracking?

It makes sense to me to leave the gains/cuts as you have set them, to establish at a gross level the RGB balance. With the 9pt gamma control you then can fine tune the color balance and Y at each intermediate stimulus level. How close you get to a flat balance and gamma depends on the granularity of the controls, and I don't have any hands on experience on your model to give any advice.

Dumb question. In CalMAN is "TY" the "target Y" to which you refer, and am I tweaking the RGBs to get that to match Y as closely as possible in the way you described above?

Dumb question. In CalMAN is "TY" the "target Y" to which you refer, and am I tweaking the RGBs to get that to match Y as closely as possible in the way you described above?

Yes.

Those target Y's are calculated from the measured 100% white Y, and the choice of gamma value and gamma calculation. If you want to change the gamma value from its default, I'm sure that's covered in the helpfile.

Thanks again Bill. With guys like you and D-Nice helping me I've gotta believe I'll figure this out eventually.

Bill, I wouldn't mind your take on something I asked above...

When looking at the Grayscale and Gamma adjustment window in CalMAN, should I try to keep the target within the bullseye area while trying to get to 2.20, or do I try to get the gamma value regardless of what happens in the bullseye? IOW, deal with the bullseye afterward.

Bill, I wouldn't mind your take on something I asked above..."should I try to keep the target within the bullseye area while trying to get to 2.20, or do I try to get the gamma value regardless of what happens in the bullseye?"Getting a neutral grayscale is more important that getting a flat 2.2 gamma, though getting both would obviously be ideal.

Okay, so assuming I set my Contrast and Brightness correctly, then move to the 2-point RGB Tracking with Gains/Cuts - in theory if I then use the 9 point controls and either the bullseye or RGB bars to get each point dead on (100% on the bars for R, G, and B or dead center in the bullseye) - for a set like an Elite would the Gamma be expected to fall pretty much in line? Or are my assumptions going off in a wrong direction here?

Okay, so assuming I set my Contrast and Brightness correctly, then move to the 2-point RGB Tracking with Gains/Cuts - in theory if I then use the 9 point controls and either the bullseye or RGB bars to get each point dead on (100% on the bars for R, G, and B or dead center in the bullseye) - for a set like an Elite would the Gamma be expected to fall pretty much in line? Or are my assumptions going off in a wrong direction here?

If you get the balance right, i.e., the RGB bars, that eliminates color shift in the grayscale. If you also use the 9 pt controls to match the target Y values calculated by Calman, then the displayed gamma curve should be flat.

With the 9 pt gamma controls you are adjusting each point in 3 dimensions, xyY, and it takes two graphs convey that information.