Sony Pictures Home Entertainment is currently monitoring a poll on the subject of Blu-ray subtitle positions.

Please read this article (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/2993) for an explanation of the issue, and then vote for Option #1.

Please read the entire article. All questions are addressed in it.

At the present time, subtitle positions cannot be adjusted by the Blu-ray player. There will be no option to vote for that. The studio considers this an either/or decision. Either the subtitles are moved up into the active picture area, as they are displayed in theaters, or they stay in the letterbox bar where they will be cut off on many screens.

Even if you may think that this doesn't concern you, this is a very serious problem for many viewers. Please consider the ramifications that votes for any option other than #1 will have on other viewers.

This poll is an opportunity to improve the home theater experience for many viewers, at no expense to the studio and no negative impact to anyone else. Please do not let this opportunity go to waste. This may be the only chance we have to directly affect a positive change on this topic.

Thank you.

I don't have a constant image height screen but i like the subtitles to be in the main image area because it's easier to focus on subtitles within the image area and i like the idea of masking off the 16/9 screen with fabric to make it more cinematic and then removing the fabric for 1.78:1 presentations.

I would still like to see some form of vote which sends a message to the studio's that they need to start using the technology and allowing us to move the subtitles to any place we want them and to allow us to choose the font and colors of the subtitles.

When Blu Ray arrived on the scene the subtitles placement and different font and colors available was mentioned frequently but here we are over three years later and they still don't utilize the technology to it's fullest and it looks like they have no intention of doing so.

I find the position they have taken on this to be intolerable.

Hi Josh,

I signed up and voted on the poll over at Blu-ray.com, and now I've been reading through the subtitle thread.

All I've got to add here is to say; Josh you are my hero!

Thank you so much for fighting the good fight for all of us CIH people. Lord I hope something good comes out of this!

Even if you dont have a constant height screen. You may very well sit with a 2.35:1 screen in the future.

So the sooner the studios get into the program the better.

Not to come off as too crabby but, if Sony was so concerned about viewer feedback on this, why is this poll not part of their daily/weekly poll at http://www.sonyrewards.com/en/clubs/bluray/?

Not to come off as too crabby but, if Sony was so concerned about viewer feedback on this, why is this poll not part of their daily/weekly poll at http://www.sonyrewards.com/en/clubs/bluray/?

Because this is not an officially endorsed poll. Penton, a Sony employee who appears to have some clout within at least the home video department, asked that the poll be set up due to frequent complaints from users at the Blu-ray.com forum. He has said he will bring the results and potentially argue for them to the people within the company that decide over these matters. Sony as a company has done nothing yet - this is just Penton as an individual employee asking about it.

No idea why my post here was removed, but I went over there and cast my vote. I am in line with Josh and feel that the subtitles belong in the picture. The lower my eye has to go away from the picture, the harder it is for me to enjoy viewing the darned movie.

Thanks, guys. Please tell your friends to vote. The larger the margin of victory, the better. We really need a sweeping majority to convince the studio to act.

It saddens me that, despite everything that's been said on the topic, people on that forum continue to vote to keep subtitles in the letterbox bar, and to actually post that they're doing so because they can't be bothered to care about anyone else's needs. :(

Thanks, guys. Please tell your friends to vote. The larger the margin of victory, the better. We really need a sweeping majority to convince the studio to act.

We always have the HTPC option. And place the subtitles after your own preferences.

Plus you can avoid all the annoying material that plays before the movie as a bonus. :)

Like others have said this is important for those with ANY screen. Why should I have o look away from the picture to read the subtitles. Putting them in the black is no different then putting the on the left, right, or behind. You have to completely turn away from the picture to read them either way...

In the active picture area, please. Voted option 1 in the poll.

Option 1 -- subtitles always in the picture area -- is clearly the right answer and would get my vote. Though I read Penton-Man's insider thread, I'm not going to register at that site to vote. Sorry, Josh.

I don't have a CIH setup and probably never will, but do always prefer subtitles in the image area for the simple reason that it requires less eye movement to switch between reading and watching.

You go Josh!! Subtitles in the image!!

As matters stand now, I don't care whether subtitles are limited to the image or are also in the bottom bar of the letterbox. That's because I have a 16:9 display and one way works as well as the other for me. Nevertheless, I agree that it would be a good idea for the studios to put subtitles entirely in the image in the future because of the problems not doing so creates for those with constant image height screens.

I can read the subtitles easier and faster when they are in the black bar, but I could live with it either way. I don't understand why they can't include both versions while tossing in subtitles in Korean, Swedish, Pig Latin, etc.

I can read the subtitles easier and faster when they are in the black bar, but I could live with it either way. I don't understand why they can't include both versions while tossing in subtitles in Korean, Swedish, Pig Latin, etc.

That's a remarkably ignorant comment, Korean = Pig Latin. I am amazed when people complaint about the inclusion of multiple languages on a disc when they don't ever have to even turn them on. As though their very placement on the disc is objectionable!

As Josh Z explains in his article and his original post, it's a technical limitation that prevents adjustable subtitles. It's not a space constraint, it's a limit of the disc design.

All subtitles form every studios must be in image area,not at the lower black bar,like in the theaterical view.Sony and Warner should change their policy about the subtitles,thanks.

As Josh Z explains in his article and his original post, it's a technical limitation that prevents adjustable subtitles. It's not a space constraint, it's a limit of the disc design.

Is there more information somewhere about this technical limitation as i remember reading years ago that one of the great benefits of the new format would be adjustable subtitles with different fonts and colors selected from the menu.

Why can't it be done ?

Is there more information somewhere about this technical limitation as i remember reading years ago that one of the great benefits of the new format would be adjustable subtitles with different fonts and colors selected from the menu.

Why can't it be done ?

My understanding (which is admittedly weak) is that this sort of manipulation requires you to break into a cryptographically protected video path. High def video is never "unprotected" (unless you send it out over component, which is why they are doing away with it in Blu-ray players in a few years).

To do this you would need permission from the technology owners (the BDA?) and maybe some software support. I think there are PC programs that can do it but they are not strictly legit.

In the CIH forum there is discussion of a European Phillips player that can do it, but I'm unclear as to how they do it or if there are restrictions that make it less useful.

-Bill

My understanding (which is admittedly weak) is that this sort of manipulation requires you to break into a cryptographically protected video path. High def video is never "unprotected" (unless you send it out over component, which is why they are doing away with it in Blu-ray players in a few years).

To do this you would need permission from the technology owners (the BDA?) and maybe some software support. I think there are PC programs that can do it but they are not strictly legit.

In the CIH forum there is discussion of a European Phillips player that can do it, but I'm unclear as to how they do it or if there are restrictions that make it less useful.

-Bill

Maybe it was HD DVD which could do it then.

Not wishing to stir format war feelings just saying i remember reading that one of the new formats could do it so maybe it was HD DVD.

Maybe it was none of them and my memories playing tricks on me again.

The issue was discussed before in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13945460#post13945460). Apparently raster subtitles can't be repositioned due to the aforementioned protected path requirement and the more versatile pure-text subtitles (which theoretically allow repositioning, alternate fonts and colors, etc.) are only an optional part of the spec. Reading through that thread, it seems that Sony used text subtitles for one title (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/715) (Immortal Beloved) and subsequently dropped them because of compatibility problems.

Pretty amazing how the insanity of copy protection is resulting in a limiting of the kinds of subtitle options we have. Fricking pathetic, really.

I prefer the subtitles to me small and positioned next to the actual person speaking. Remember STAR TREK II, the short conversation between Spock and Savick? There ya go.

Maybe it was HD DVD which could do it then.

Not wishing to stir format war feelings just saying i remember reading that one of the new formats could do it so maybe it was HD DVD.

Maybe it was none of them and my memories playing tricks on me again.

HD DVDs from Studio Canal in Europe were programmed to allow subtitle size and position adjustments by using the C and D buttons on the remote.

I prefer them in the black area. Makes them easier to read IMO. Far too often the subtitles blend with the image on the screen making them hard to read.

I prefer them in the black area. Makes them easier to read IMO. Far too often the subtitles blend with the image on the screen making them hard to read.

And yet this preference is not served when there is a two-line sub in a 2.35 movie (one line of the sub will still be in the picture area), or in any 1.85 film, where there is no black area.

So people with this preference can never have what they want, no matter what, because it's simply impossible.

Yet people with the opposite preference -- the vast majority -- can't either. But in that case, it's only because of the intransigence and stupidity of the studios.

So even with your preference, you should still vote for the titles to be in the picture area. Because you can't have what you want anyway, but at least you can help other people get what they want.

Especially when, in the case of CIH systems, they're losing the titles entirely if they are in the black area. Much worse than the worst that could happen to you.

I prefer them in the black area. Makes them easier to read IMO. Far too often the subtitles blend with the image on the screen making them hard to read.

If you think that's hard to read, you should try reading subtitles that have been cut off your screen entirely! :rolleyes:

If you think that's hard to read, you should try reading subtitles that have been cut off your screen entirely! :rolleyes:

But that's due to your choice when choosing your setup. If all discs were setup the way you prefer, others will be put out as well.

Reality is, that without an option to choose when viewing the disc, somebody is going to be unhappy no matter which direction this goes.

And the eye roll was compeltely unnecessary.

But that's due to your choice when choosing your setup. If all discs were setup the way you prefer, others will be put out as well.

Let's see, on the one hand, a handful of people will be momentarily annoyed that the subtitles are slightly higher than usual, but will forget all about it within 30 seconds and just watch the movie. Most people won't notice one way or the other.

On the other hand, anyone with a CIH screen can't watch the movie at all.

So, who's more "put out"?

Reality is, that without an option to choose when viewing the disc, somebody is going to be unhappy no matter which direction this goes.

- When you watch a foreign language movie at the theater, where are the subtitles?
- When you watch a 1.85:1 foreign language movie on DVD or Blu-ray, where are the subtitles?
- When you watch a 2.35:1 foreign language movie from Universal, Disney, or Paramount, where are the subtitles?
- When you watch a 2.35:1 foreign language movie from Sony or Warner, where's the first line of subtitles?

If you're unhappy with subtitles in the picture, then you're always going to be unhappy watching any foreign language movie.

I bet you'll get over it.

CIH viewers can't "get over" this, because we can't watch the movie.

If your main complaint is that subtitles sometimes blend into the picture, that can be easily fixed by using a slightly darker font or adding a dropshadow effect.

Further discussing this issue with you Josh is obviously pointless since you obviously have no respect for the other side of the discussion and choose to be rude. But your lack of respect for it deosn't change the fact that neither side is any more right than the other on this topic.

Like others, I agree the best solution is to simply make placement, and other subtitle options, available when you load the disc.

Further discussing this issue with you Josh is obviously pointless since you obviously have no respect for the other side of the discussion and choose to be rude. But your lack of respect for it deosn't change the fact that neither side is any more right than the other on this topic.

Like others, I agree the best solution is to simply make placement, and other subtitle options, available when you load the disc.
Although I understand the frustration of that small minority of BD viewers who have variable height displays, the fact remains that the great majority of us have fixed height displays and don't give a damn. Ugly news if you have a variable height display but there it is.

Although I understand the frustration of that small minority of BD viewers who have variable height displays, the fact remains that the great majority of us have fixed height displays and don't give a damn. Ugly news if you have a variable height display but there it is.

What's a "variable height display?" CIH rigs work by varying the width.

I for one have a standard display and *hate* it when the first line of the subtitle is in the picture and the second line is in the black bar. Don't assume that standard display = doesn't care. Lots of people prefer the titles to be in the picture area, as they are in the theater.

What's a "variable height display?" CIH rigs work by varying the width.

I for one have a standard display and *hate* it when the first line of the subtitle is in the picture and the second line is in the black bar. Don't assume that standard display = doesn't care. Lots of people prefer the titles to be in the picture area, as they are in the theater.
I guess my gaffe about adjustable format displays established that I don't have one.

I have a standard display and don't care. If all I had to worry about was where subtitles appear on the screen, I wouldn't have any worries. Doesn't the obsession over this, to me at least, minor issue remind you of the gnashing of teeth in the PS3 thread about the PS3's inability to pass a bitstream signal via HDMI? Just askin.:)

What's a "variable height display?"I have a variable-height display: 16:9 screen with an adjustable top matte that I pull down to mask the black bars, coupled with vertical lens shift. It greatly helps eliminate light-spill for movies that are wider than 16:9.

All subtitles should be movable and resizable - that would make everyone happy. Unfortunately, that's not an option in the poll, so the less-worse choice is in the picture at all times.

Scott

Doesn't the obsession over this, to me at least, minor issue remind you of the gnashing of teeth in the PS3 thread about the PS3's inability to pass a bitstream signal via HDMI? Just askin.:)

No.

I guess my gaffe about adjustable format displays established that I don't have one.

I have a standard display and don't care. If all I had to worry about was where subtitles appear on the screen, I wouldn't have any worries. Doesn't the obsession over this, to me at least, minor issue remind you of the gnashing of teeth in the PS3 thread about the PS3's inability to pass a bitstream signal via HDMI? Just askin.:)

I think that for discs to be released in such a way that some buyers -- those with a particular type of display -- cannot see the subtitles is not a minor issue for the people who own those displays. It costs me nothing to support them in their campaign to effect change, and so I do.

It's more important than the bitstream thing, since bitstreaming lossless audio is worthless, where as this issue makes a substantial and meaningful difference to the people it affects.

By the way, in the heat of the format war, it looked like Sony was interested in the movable option:

The re-position feature will be applied to all the available languages, so we will likely just have a toggle button on the subtitle selections area. We need to come up with a name for this button this is as clear as possible for the users. Something like "Text in pic". Notice the brevity because it has to fit with other menu selections.

We would only need to provide this feature on titles with a 2.20 or greater aspect ratio.

On a positive note, BD allows for rendered subtitles (not used by any discs yet to my knowledge) and these can allow for custom sizing and placement depending on user preference.

As pointed out in my earlier post, not only position, but sizing with player rendered fonts has been in the BD spec from the beginning. We will experiment with using this feature on an upcoming title and I will let the forum know when it is identified. A caveat to font based subtitles is that they may not look quite as good as the typical raster based subs. We may provide both on the same disc to accomodate user preference.

It looked like there was also the possibility of adding movable subtitles after release:

Could BD-J (or other BD technology) allow the user to download a new set of movable subtitles for discs they already own?

Sure. Using the ability to update an older title you could add a BD-J app which provides its own subtitles.

- Talk

It's too bad that two years later there hasn't been any implementation of this feature that's been in the spec since the beginning. Of course, it is worth mentioning that this was dangled out there in the middle of a battle, and the competition had a simple and easy solution:

FWIW, in HD DVD we can script the position of subtitles - I think the Studio Canal "Basic Instict" does this, or at least was used in a demo of it. As part of the general "kindness to constant height users" principle, I've suggested having an easy to select mode to move all the subtitles into the movie region. I prefer not locking them into that area, since for 16:9 projectors, many users (myself included) prefer to have the subtitles in the letterbox and out of the image area.

The other feature I like for 2.35 users is to have all selectable areas of menus be inside the movie's active image rectangle. Basically, treat the 2.35:1 region as title safe.

Oh, certainly. What I'm advocating is that widescreen discs have a "2.35" mode that will make sure all menus and subtitles are moved to the active image area. But I don't think we want to make it required - 16:9 viewers prefer to have the subtitles in the letterbox. It's trivial in HD DVD to just make this a user-controlled toggle.

Since a studio controls their own persitant storage, you could even have all titles from the same studio check for what the setting of the player is, so new movies would pop up in 2.35 mode by default.

This would have been an ideal solution, especially since there are times that menu buttons are located outside of the picture area. In fairness, this was never widely implemented in HD DVD before it died, but it sounds like it was pretty simple to do, and would have satisfied everyone.

Scott

questions:
will panasonic, sony, denon etc ever provide (is it possible?) a firmware allowing subtitles on past and future discs ?
do they care about Philips scope flat screen sales (watching them) ?
or not ? as long as they don't manufacture a similar screen format they don't.

questions:
will panasonic, sony, denon etc ever provide (is it possible?) a firmware allowing subtitles on past and future discs ?
do they care about Philips scope flat screen sales (watching them) ?
or not ? as long as they don't manufacture a similar screen format they don't.

My old samsung DVD player, had a nice thing called EZ mode. That made you zoom in or stretch the active area of a 2.35:1 movie. And at the same time keep the subtitles in the active area of the screen.

That was a perfect solution for 2.35 screens.

Does anybody know if the Samsung BD player still uses this? And does it work on most BD titles?

I think that for discs to be released in such a way that some buyers -- those with a particular type of display -- cannot see the subtitles is not a minor issue for the people who own those displays. It costs me nothing to support them in their campaign to effect change, and so I do.

It's more important than the bitstream thing, since bitstreaming lossless audio is worthless, where as this issue makes a substantial and meaningful difference to the people it affects.
Despite not caring about the issue personally, I agree that it would be better to setup subtitles in a way that did less harm to those few BD viewers who are owners of variable format displays. Still, their whining gets a little old. I understand, though, that AVS Forum is where we come when we feel the need to whine.:)

As you already know, you and I agree about the bitstream issue.

Although I understand the frustration of that small minority of BD viewers who have variable height displays, the fact remains that the great majority of us have fixed height displays and don't give a damn. Ugly news if you have a variable height display but there it is.

Remind me to tell you how much I don't care about the next issue that seriously disrupts your home theater experience. :mad:

still, their whining gets a little old.

+1

Especially when you consider the fact that they chose to use this equipment vs. many other options that don't have the problem.

+1

Especially when you consider the fact that they chose to use this euipment vs. many other options that don't have the problem.

So do you (who I presume have a conventional display) like it when the first line of the subtitle is in the picture and the second line is in the black bar?

I don't understand why anybody would want that.

So do you (who I presume have a conventional display) like it when the first line of the subtitle is in the picture and the second line is in the black bar?

Not at all what I posted.

Not at all what I posted.

No, I was simply asking you a question.

Ugh, Josh you made me register over there! Hopefully it was worth it to contribute to the cause.

I do not have a CIH screen. However, subtitles are in the picture area in the theater, and that is where I want it at home.

Remind me to tell you how much I don't care about the next issue that seriously disrupts your home theater experience. :mad:
Josh -- I apologize that my comment turned out to be more snarky than I had intended. Please recall that in my first post to the thread, I said that I, too, would prefer for subtitles to be handled in a way that didn't cause trouble for those of you who have variable format displays. Although I don't have a dog in this fight because I have a 16:9 flat panel display, I understand your frustration.

I do not have a CIH screen. However, subtitles are in the picture area in the theater, and that is where I want it at home.
It seems to me that 90%, at least, of the subtitles used at home are English subtitles for English language movies. Such subtitles are not available in any form in the theater presentation of a film. The only subtitles I can recall seeing in the theater were contained in the image but so far as I can recall were universally used only when the audible dialogue was either in a foreign language or heavily accented English.

Although I understand the frustration of that small minority of BD viewers who have variable height displays, the fact remains that the great majority of us have fixed height displays and don't give a damn. Ugly news if you have a variable height display but there it is.

Cold,cold.

Art

Cold,cold.
Yeah, as I said in my last post, my comment turned out to be more snarky than I had intended. This just goes to show the limitations of the written word, I guess.:)

It seems to me that 90%, at least, of the subtitles used at home are English subtitles for English language movies. Such subtitles are not available in any form in the theater presentation of a film. The only subtitles I can recall seeing in the theater were contained in the image but so far as I can recall were universally used only when the audible dialogue was either in a foreign language or heavily accented English.

Just because you aren't a fan of foreign-language films doesn't mean that the issue is unimportant to people who are.

So let me ask you: do you like it when the first line of a caption is within the picture area and the second line is in the black bar?

Just because a person is not a fan of having the subtitles within the black bars doesn't mean that the issue is unimportant to people who are.

Just because a person is not a fan of having the subtitles within the black bars doesn't mean that the issue is unimportant to people who are.

But having the titles wholly within the black bars is not an option if there is more than one line of text. Let's confine the discussion to reality. If people want to start a campaign to introduce a feature allowing reduction of caption size so that they will always fit in the black bars, they can.

But having the titles wholly within the black bars is not an option if there is more than one line of text. Let's confine the discussion to reality. If people want to start a campaign to introduce a feature allowing reduction of caption size so that they will always fit in the black bars, they can.

I see you're back to commenting on things not even posted.

It's been fun watching the whining about the limitations of equipment they chose to buy, but I'm done responding to posts like the one above.

I see you're back to commenting on things not even posted.

It's been fun watching the whining about the limitations of equipment they chose to buy, but I'm done responding to posts like the one above.

You said: "Just because a person is not a fan of having the subtitles within the black bars doesn't mean that the issue is unimportant to people who are."

This says the issue is important to people who are fans of subtitles within black bars. That's what you said, and that's what I commented on.

I said those people are free to start a campaign of their own. I appear to be responding to what you actually said rather than what you seem to think you said.

And you still haven't answered my question. Which was "So do you (who I presume have a conventional display) like it when the first line of the subtitle is in the picture and the second line is in the black bar?"

Just because a person is not a fan of having the subtitles within the black bars doesn't mean that the issue is unimportant to people who are.

Again I ask:

- When you watch a foreign language movie at the theater, where are the subtitles?
- When you watch a 1.85:1 foreign language movie on DVD or Blu-ray, where are the subtitles?
- When you watch a 2.35:1 foreign language movie from Universal, Disney, or Paramount, where are the subtitles?
- When you watch a 2.35:1 foreign language movie from Sony or Warner, where's the first line of subtitles?

If you care so much about having subtitles in the letterbox bar, then it appears that there are no circumstance by which you can ever watch a foreign language film. Ever. Not on Blu-ray, not on DVD, not in the theater.

Posting that I prefer, or am a fan of subtitles within the black bars in no way says anything about my feelings about movies where some or all of the subtitles are in the viewing area.

Unlike those whining about the limitaitons of their players, I'm simply giving my preference.

If anything comes up in support of movable subtitles/subtitle formatting I'll be right there with you all.

Just because you aren't a fan of foreign-language films doesn't mean that the issue is unimportant to people who are.

So let me ask you: do you like it when the first line of a caption is within the picture area and the second line is in the black bar?
You have a point. I had thought that most foreign films shown in theaters had subtitles and that those subtitles are, naturally, within the area of the image. But today I watched the BD of Luc Besson's, Leon, a French language film, again and realized that its subtitles are, indeed, in the letterbox area. Still, as this thread has proved, the issue is a much bigger deal to a few of you than it is to the rest of us. That doesn't make you wrong, of course, just out of the mainstream.:)

But today I watched the BD of Luc Besson's, Leon, a French language film, again and realized that its subtitles are, indeed, in the letterbox area. Wat? Did you even watch it? The movie is completely in English.

I put in my vote for in-picture subtitles. I don't have a CIH setup but I hope to in the future and I do watch a good number of foreign-language films.

Wat? Did you even watch it? The movie is completely in English.
You are right, I was guilty of a mental hiccough. The movie I REALLY watched was Luc Besson's, NIKITA (retitled La Femme Nikita in the U.S.). Immediately before I posted, though, I had checked the IMDb page for Leon (retitled The Professional in the U.S.) and apparently went into brain lock. I trust that this answers your courteous (or not) question suggesting that I had not seen Nikita.

I can't imagine this is even a question that needs asked. Are you telling me that people in the entertainment industry who could have an affect on such a matter are still watching some crappy old TV? Give me a break. Anyone who would be that influential in the industry certainly would have a system of their own to show such issues or would at least know that this is a serious problem.

Then looking at the poll results shows that almost half of people interested enough in home entertainment to vote on such an issue, have no clue what they're voting for.

Amazing.

Or they have a 16x9 TV that is not at all crappy and displays subtitles just fine.

You are right, I was guilty of a mental hiccough. The movie I REALLY watched was Luc Besson's, NIKITA (retitled La Femme Nikita in the U.S.). Immediately before I posted, though, I had checked the IMDb page for Leon (retitled The Professional in the U.S.) and apparently went into brain lock. I trust that this answers your courteous (or not) question suggesting that I had not seen Nikita.

Watching Nikita on BD drove me nuts with having to look down into the black bar area to read the subtitles.

... people in the entertainment industry who could have an affect on such a matter are still watching some crappy old TV? Give me a break. Anyone who would be that influential in the industry certainly would have a system of their own to show such issues ...

I certainly hope you are not implying that only those with CIH setups have a clue with regard to HT... :rolleyes:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/sharkcohen/1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_be.gif

Your "preference" is negatively affecting the ability of others to watch the movie at all.


And your "preference" is negatively affecting his ability to enjoy a movie at maximum effect....you disagree, no need to get pissy about it.

And your "preference" is negatively affecting his ability to enjoy a movie at maximum effect....you disagree, no need to get pissy about it.

Really? So you're suggesting that he can't "enjoy a movie at maximum effect" unless the subtitles are in the black bar? That would mean that he can't enjoy (at maximum effect, whatever that means) any 1.85:1 films that have subtitles, right? Or any titles that have some of the lines in the picture area and some out (like the Sony and Warner releases being discussed in this thread,) right? Not to mention every film with subtitles that he sees theatrically...

I don't have a CIH setup and probably won't in the near (2-3 years) future, but would still prefer the subtitles be in the image, not in the bar below (or half and half, like some studios do.) If it works in the theater (and it has for decades,) I see no reason why it wouldn't work for home theaters. FWIW, I voted for option #1 in the poll (not under this user name, since I was banned from that site long ago.)

Why are we voting for anything that doesn't maintain the integrity of the theatrical presentation? I don't care what your equipment is.

Why are we voting for anything that doesn't maintain the integrity of the theatrical presentation? I don't care what your equipment is.
I think the problem that has given rise to this debate is exemplified by a movie I saw on the BD yesterday, Nikita. It is in French, with the option to use a clumsily dubbed English soundtrack. I feel certain that subtitles were not available when Nikita was shown in theaters. Thus, where they are contained on the BD has nothing to do with "the integrity of the theatrical presentation." As noted in an earlier post, the subtitles on the Nikita BD are displayed in the bottom area of the letterbox, not in the image. I suspect that subtitles included on the theatrical version of any film are shown in exactly the same place on the DVD and BD editions.

I think the problem that has given rise to this debate is exemplified by a movie I saw on the BD yesterday, Nikita. It is in French, with the option to use a clumsily dubbed English soundtrack. I feel certain that subtitles were not available when Nikita was shown in theaters. Thus, where they are contained on the BD has nothing to do with "the integrity of the theatrical presentation." As noted in an earlier post, the subtitles on the Nikita BD are displayed in the bottom area of the letterbox, not in the image. I suspect that subtitles included on the theatrical version of any film are shown in exactly the same place on the DVD and BD editions.

I think you will find there were prints made which contained subtitles for the cinema presentations.

Of course a dubbed version would have been released as well.

Regarding your last statement....Nope as quite often the subtitles get changed ( font size/colors/placement onscreen as well as the actual text ) and ruined for the DVD and now the Blu Ray editions. ( Unless you mean the DVD and Blu Ray are the same - I read your last post as meaning the cinema versions subtitles are shown exactly the same on DVD and Blu Ray )

If I may be permitted to stand back from this a little, because I think there’s a big point being missed here.

Sony may be persuaded to change their subtitle placement, but what then? What about all those foreign language films distributed by independents? What about foreign language films on TV - in the UK almost all have subs in the black bars? What about all of those films already released? Are we really expecting them to get a re-release on Blu-ray Disc just because of the subs?

Of my favourite 75 films 29 are already out on Blu-ray Disc, with a further 6 announced or rumoured. The horse has bolted. We're already too far into Blu-ray Disc's life to 'solve' this one.

If you have (or are thinking of buying) a CIH set up, you're going to have to either not buy some of your favourite foreign language films on Blu-ray Disc, or put up with watching them swimming in the middle of your massive CIH screen. Sorry, but no amount of polls will solve this.

That is the unpalatable truth.

Steve W

Bickering posts removed. Next up: bickering POSTERS. Maybe.

If you have (or are thinking of buying) a CIH set up, you're going to have to either not buy some of your favourite foreign language films on Blu-ray Disc, or put up with watching them swimming in the middle of your massive CIH screen. Sorry, but no amount of polls will solve this.

That is the unpalatable truth.
Yeah, the dirty little secret is that Constant Image Height projectors are a niche market. Thus, it's clear to me at least, that Sony and the other DVD and BD producers simply don’t care about the subtitle problem because so few of their DVD and BD buying customers are effected by it. In a perfect world, I would prefer that subtitles be in the filmed image, too. Alas, this isn’t a perfect world.

My brother is completely Deaf. He somewhat lives with my wife and I and our TVs always have subtitles on and we have become accustomed to watching movies with subtitles on and usually watch movies with subtitles on even when hes not around.

I have to say that if you are Deaf, it doesn't matter if it is in the black bar or in the picture. I'll tell you, if you leave your subtitles on constantly whether in movies or TV, eventually you don't even look at them. You just read them unconsciously. Try it and see. Now what is annoying is when they get cut off.

Realistically anyone who watches the occasional subtitled foreign film is going to feel strained trying to watch them. You have to train your eyes to watch the film and read at the same time. When you get to that point it doesn't really matter where they are, as long as they are fully visible.

Everyone is bickering over whether or not the two movies they watch a year will be effected by a subtitle change. Why don't you post this question at www.alldeaf.com (http://www.alldeaf.com) and ask some people who are forced to watch subtitles 100% of the time.

Sony may be persuaded to change their subtitle placement, but what then? What about all those foreign language films distributed by independents? What about foreign language films on TV - in the UK almost all have subs in the black bars? What about all of those films already released? Are we really expecting them to get a re-release on Blu-ray Disc just because of the subs?

One battle at a time. If we can convince one major studio to change their policy, the others can be brought around as well.

Yeah, the dirty little secret is that Constant Image Height projectors are a niche market. Thus, it's clear to me at least, that Sony and the other DVD and BD producers simply don’t care about the subtitle problem because so few of their DVD and BD buying customers are effected by it. In a perfect world, I would prefer that subtitles be in the filmed image, too. Alas, this isn’t a perfect world.

Yes ,but since it doesn't matter why not in the picture area ?

Art

I certainly hope you are not implying that only those with CIH setups have a clue with regard to HT... :rolleyes:
Tell ya what,

Why don't you reword, paraphrase, convolute, do whatever you think you need to do to what I said and explain how you read what I posted and then came up with that. Deal?

Someone who sits at a computer all day long, every work day, and has anything to do with the production of entertainment media, does not notice that there's a black bar? (may as well be a flashing neon sign), This shows the boundaries of various display systems (which by the way, represent the various customer bases we are going to try to sell this product to), and didn't notice that the subtitles they are placing on the image are not going to be within that particular (MORE COMMON) display viewport. I say more common becuase this IS the aspect that the movie was shot in to begin with. Ya know, the one that the movie is INTENDED to be viewed in. In other words, they expect the viewer will have just such a system.

Again, please paraphrase your interpretation and explain the conclusion. This should be good. Be sure to quote, in context.

Pecker,
I agree with what you're saying but just cause the horse is out of the barn does not mean we should not attempt to get the horse back in the barn. No doubt, many currently released films are done wrong, but it would be nice if it would at least stop.

Fact is, the entire subtitle system should have been reworked LONG ago. Yes, one solution is to not watch foreigh language films, but that's not exactly what the filmmakers had in mind (limiting their audience).

http://www.alldeaf.com/movies-books-tv-media/67401-subtitle-positioning-movies-cinema.html

I'd not seen Letters From Iwo Jima till last night and the importance of this discussion hit home even more for me. I had to watch it with my screen at 16x9. Pretty much negated the reason for my set up.

Art

I'd not seen Letters From Iwo Jima till last night and the importance of this discussion hit home even more for me. I had to watch it with my screen at 16x9. Pretty much negated the reason for my set up.
I saw Letters in the theater and am pretty sure I recall that the subtitles were contained in the viewing area. I've seen it on DVD or BD since but can't recall where the subtitles were because I have a 16:9 flat panel display. I infer from your post that the subtitles of the BD edition of Letters are in the bottom of the letterbox area.

Could it be that movie disc producers place the subtitles in an area that is otherwise unviewed by most of us in order to be able to make the subtitles as large and easily readable as possible? That’s a bummer for you CIH folks, of course, but I see a reasonable argument in favor of the proposition that the disc producers are placing subtitles where they think they will do the greatest good for the greatest number of their customers.

I saw Letters in the theater and am pretty sure I recall that the subtitles were contained in the viewing area.


Ah,subtitles are always in the picture area in commercial theaters,always !

Art

^
Yes they are! And they should be in Home Theater set-ups too. After all - are we not (to the best of our ability) trying to duplicate the Theater experience at home?

I saw Letters in the theater and am pretty sure I recall that the subtitles were contained in the viewing area. I've seen it on DVD or BD since but can't recall where the subtitles were because I have a 16:9 flat panel display. I infer from your post that the subtitles of the BD edition of Letters are in the bottom of the letterbox area.

Could it be that movie disc producers place the subtitles in an area that is otherwise unviewed by most of us in order to be able to make the subtitles as large and easily readable as possible? That’s a bummer for you CIH folks, of course, but I see a reasonable argument in favor of the proposition that the disc producers are placing subtitles where they think they will do the greatest good for the greatest number of their customers.

I understand your point and can't disagree. I think what most folks would like is the ability to choose where the subtitles are positioned. There are a few BR's that let you chose to have the subtitles placed in the image or leave them as is. If that is not possible, then let the hardware companies supply the option of moving the subtitles to the image area in a scope film. I think euro version of a Phillips BR player allows this to be done, but the software has to be encoded to allow this to take place.

The bottomline is both consumer groups can be served, if the studios deem it important enough. This is why I can't understand the anger from those who don't want the option available for those with scope systems and/or those with a preference to have the subtitles in the image for ease of reading/viewing. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Ron

Tell ya what,

Why don't you reword, paraphrase, convolute, do whatever you think you need to do to what I said and explain how you read what I posted and then came up with that. Deal?

If I misinterpreted your statement, I apologize (it is not my intention to take sides, or provoke confrontation). When you don't define "crappy old TV", it's kinda hard not to interpret that as the notion that only a front-projection system is worthy of the appellation "Home Theater". Similarly, the statement "Anyone who would be that influential in the industry certainly would have a system of their own to show such issues ..." can be interpreted as "anybody who's anybody in the industry should have a CIH system".

As for my position on the issue, I do support putting the subtitles on the picture, if only because that is the way it was shown theatrically, including the font (in the same way that I despise MAR presentations). Personally, I do not have a preference, but I recognize it is an issue.

^
Yes they are! And they should be in Home Theater set-ups too. After all - are we not (to the best of our ability) trying to duplicate the Theater experience at home?

+1

Art

I understand your point and can't disagree. I think what most folks would like is the ability to choose where the subtitles are positioned. There are a few BR's that let you chose to have the subtitles placed in the image or leave them as is. If that is not possible, then let the hardware companies supply the option of moving the subtitles to the image area in a scope film. I think euro version of a Phillips BR player allows this to be done, but the software has to be encoded to allow this to take place.

The bottomline is both consumer groups can be served, if the studios deem it important enough. This is why I can't understand the anger from those who don't want the option available for those with scope systems and/or those with a preference to have the subtitles in the image for ease of reading/viewing. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Ron -- I agree entirely. I have a 16:9 flat panel display and, thus, have no personal complaint about where BD subtitles are usually displayed. That said, I think that those who react angrily to the desire of CIH projector owners to be able to show subtitles in the image area are out of line -- just as I think that the angry reactions here by some of the CIH people to those of us who don't care about the issue are out of line. In short, can't we all just get along?:)

I understand your point and can't disagree. I think what most folks would like is the ability to choose where the subtitles are positioned. There are a few BR's that let you chose to have the subtitles placed in the image or leave them as is. If that is not possible, then let the hardware companies supply the option of moving the subtitles to the image area in a scope film. I think euro version of a Phillips BR player allows this to be done, but the software has to be encoded to allow this to take place.

The bottomline is both consumer groups can be served, if the studios deem it important enough. This is why I can't understand the anger from those who don't want the option available for those with scope systems and/or those with a preference to have the subtitles in the image for ease of reading/viewing. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Ron, I agree with everything you've posted in theory. It would be great for everyone if the studios and/or hardware manufacturers would make subtitle position adjustable to wherever the viewer wants it. That would be a win-win all around.

Unfortunately, there's a profound disconnect between theory and reality. Sony has been very clear that they simply will not invest the time or resources into programming their discs to allow moveable subtitles. They won't do it. At all. Not now. Not in the foreseeable future.

They also have absolutely no intention of adding extra subtitle tracks with alternate positions to a disc. If that would cost them a fraction of a penny for every million discs replicated, that's a fraction of a penny they won't spend.

This is an either/or decision for the studio. Either they move subtitles up into the frame, or they continue to stick their middle finger up to CIH viewers. There are no other alternatives.

This may well be the only shot we have to force them to address the issue in any way. If we fail due to the inconsiderate behavior of those who can't be bothered to care about the problem or think through the consequences, then we're just frakked forever. I refuse to accept that. This is a battle that must be won.

Doesn't Sir Howard Stringer have a CIH setup?

Doesn't Sir Howard Stringer have a CIH setup?

No, he watches all of his movies from Betamax on his c. 1986 Trinitron tube. :)

Thanks Josh for the clarification. I didn't realize they were that short sided in their view. Sad for those of us with scope set ups. One of the first things I check is if the subtitles are in the letterbox, if so, it's a "no purchase" for me. But, as others have rightly pointed out, we are a very small share of the market.

For other members who have a projector set up....going scope is the next best decision I've made (going from big screen to projector being the first) in creating a cinematic experience in our home. Come visit the CIH forum to learn more.

just as I think that the angry reactions here by some of the CIH people to those of us who don't care about the issue are out of line.

The anger comes not from your position but from your " I don't care , it's your problem " attitude toward the issue.

Art

If I misinterpreted your statement, I apologize (it is not my intention to take sides, or provoke confrontation).
I shouldn't get so excited about folks interpretations either, sorry. Don't take what I said as a dig on folks without a CIH setup. That would include me. Though I may soon have one. IF, if if, I did work in the entertainment industry for a living, I can assure you I'd have one of everything it took to be informed. 1/3 of my house is devoted to occupation related tools and equipment and I use them often. I expect others to do the same, especially when thier decision affects literally millions, and even billions of people. Bad decisions of that magnitude are inexcuseable.

If you'd wanted to read something into what I'd said, it should have been that the people responsible for doing this to films should be hung in the local town square at high noon. This ranks amongst the worst mistakes I've seen made in the entertainment industry, and that is saying something. Not that the end result is that catastrophic, but that it is so avoidable, and so easy to fix. It's so easy to please everyone. And, it wasn't even a mistake, this was done intentionally. Very knowingly...

Even a bean counter could have made this decision correctly. Lets sell more disks... how do we do it?

I shouldn't get so excited about folks interpretations either, sorry. Don't take what I said as a dig on folks without a CIH setup. That would include me. Though I may soon have one. IF, if if, I did work in the entertainment industry for a living, I can assure you I'd have one of everything it took to be informed. 1/3 of my house is devoted to occupation related tools and equipment and I use them often. I expect others to do the same, especially when thier decision affects literally millions, and even billions of people. Bad decisions of that magnitude are inexcuseable.

If you'd wanted to read something into what I'd said, it should have been that the people responsible for doing this to films should be hung in the local town square at high noon. This ranks amongst the worst mistakes I've seen made in the entertainment industry, and that is saying something. Not that the end result is that catastrophic, but that it is so avoidable, and so easy to fix. It's so easy to please everyone. And, it wasn't even a mistake, this was done intentionally. Very knowingly...

Even a bean counter could have made this decision correctly. Lets sell more disks... how do we do it?

Well said. :)

Fact is, most of the folks taking part in a thread like this consider it important to them because of the display setup they use. Then we get tunnel vision and think we are the only ones affected.

Then we remember what subtitles were originally put on media for.

Close Captioned for the Hearing Impaired

Now we have another demographic group affected by this decision, and this now isn't limited to foreign films. Now those folks can't watch ANY film.

Slyplayer to the rescue later this year.

I am not sure whether the implications related to people getting super-wide TVs in few years time (when price is right) has been considered.

We are living in a technology-era where the technology is changing in speed of light - we really cannot equate this technology-era to change of technology during last fifty years. Some may not like that, however, it looks like the technology change is becoming a way of life.

16x9 and 2.35:1 aspects are the future. There are many thousands of movie theaters around the world catering for 2.35:1 aspect and that glorious scope aspect will surely continue at least for another fifty years. 2.35:1 aspect is protected by many billions of dollars worth investment around the world. Also, I believe the desire of people to see images in wide panoramic view is a human instinct rather than a technology direction.

The display technology is evolving. The blu-rays made today need to be compatible with the evolving technology. Today people keep more than one set in a household. Future cannot be any different to that. Therefore, I believe, many people will have multiple TVs catering for major aspects of the future, i.e. 16x9 wide screen and 21x9 super-wide screen (when price is right in few years time).

Of course super-wide (21:9) TVs will not be the norm in 6 months. It could take few years for it to be popular. When it become popular (and cheap), if anyone chooses to get one of these sets, I don't think they will be happy to double dip just to read subtitles (since these sets don’t have blackbars). You or one of your close families may choose to get a 21:9 super-wide LCD TV for movies as a secondary display. In any of above cases, your black-bar subtitled blu-rays will be obsolete overnight if you want to read subs on such a new display.

This is a real possibility that applies to everyone - please consider.

Subs within the picture is universal and fits all displays and lifestyles provided the subs are correctly scaled so that they nicely integrates with the picture. This is the way that the subs were shown in the theaters for so many decades. There is no place for large, ugly and electronic-like blackbar SD/DVD subs in a HD/blu-ray world. It needs to be nice slim-line well integrated HD subs within the blu-ray image.

The content produced today should be compatible with current and future display technologies – it shall not be limited to a particular display technology. In order to achieve this, the subs need to be within the picture (if it cannot be moved by the user).

One classic example is DVD blackbar subs authored many years ago aiming for 4x3 displays. These subs cannot be read in current 16x9 displays since part of 4x3 (wider) blackbar is not displayed on 16x9 sets. Unfortunately this is repeated again with blu-ray blackbar subs. The future (and current) 2.35:1 (or 21x9) displays cannot display 16x9 blackbar subs.

I am confident that almost everyone will be frustrated in about five years time if non-moveable subtitles are placed on the black bars. Please consider and vote for the option one to ensure universal compatibility and avoid potential future problems to yourself, your family and others.

Fact is, most of the folks taking part in a thread like this consider it important to them because of the display setup they use. Then we get tunnel vision and think we are the only ones affected.

Then we remember what subtitles were originally put on media for.

Close Captioned for the Hearing Impaired

Now we have another demographic group affected by this decision, and this now isn't limited to foreign films. Now those folks can't watch ANY film.

The poll is for subtitles. I don't think that will change any aspects of SDH (subtitles for deaf and hard of hearing).

The poll is for subtitles. I don't think that will change any aspects of SDH (subtitles for deaf and hard of hearing).Are you saying there's other captions on the disk for those folks which are visible and I could just turn them instead? Otherwise, the subtitles being discussed are the only option for anyone.

I guess if you had one of these you would be hosed:

http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/gb/consumer/cc/_categoryid_CINEMA219_FLAT_TV_SE_GB_CONSUMER/

Fact is, most of the folks taking part in a thread like this consider it important to them because of the display setup they use. Then we get tunnel vision and think we are the only ones affected.

Then we remember what subtitles were originally put on media for.

Close Captioned for the Hearing Impaired

Now we have another demographic group affected by this decision, and this now isn't limited to foreign films. Now those folks can't watch ANY film.

I wasn't aware that the deaf or hard of hearing read any differently than the way the rest of us read. When did that happen?

I also wasn't aware that there's some rule prohibiting the deaf or hard of hearing from owning a CIH screen and wanting their subtitles in the picture.

This argument really doesn't hold any water at all.

I wasn't aware that the deaf or hard of hearing read any differently than the way the rest of us read. When did that happen?

I also wasn't aware that there's some rule prohibiting the deaf or hard of hearing from owning a CIH screen and wanting their subtitles in the picture.

This argument really doesn't hold any water at all.

All above is true Josh. However, I am sure that the folks using SDH have different requirements to the folks reading normal subs. Almost all Hollywood blu-rays have a SDH track. To start with, if these folks had same requirements, they do not need a SDH track. The reality is they need a SDH track and it has different look and feel to subtitles.

SDH follows the speaker and they have a black background and definitely look different to subtitles. I do not think non-SDH folks could vote and make a decision for SDH folks.

The SDH tracks need to include descriptions of audio cues and music that wouldn't be in the normal subtitles. I can also see an argument that the captions need to be positioned near the actor delivering the dialogue. I can fathom no reason why the captions would need to be in a black bar. That just looks hideous and obscures even larger portions of the movie.

In any case, if it's true that SDH users for some reason absolutely can't have their captions changed from the way they currently work, there's a very simple solution to that -- Don't change the SDH captions. The SDH track is already separate from the normal English subtitles. Leave the SDH alone and only move the regular subtitles into the picture. Voila! Problem solved.

...
The SDH track is already separate from the normal English subtitles. Leave the SDH alone and only move the regular subtitles into the picture. Voila! Problem solved.

Yes of course, there is no problem. SDH is an independent track from the regular subs track. Hence subs can be placed within the picture without changing the SDH track. SDH folks may also want to move that track as well to ensure future display compatibility. That is a different issue and should check with SDH folks. I personally think that a HD SDH track can be improved significantly and integrate for seamless and effortless reading, however, that has to be a different discussion.

Josh- although they are reading the same subtitles as you, they are definitely reading them more often then those who aren't Deaf or HOH. I started a thread on a deaf forum i belong to and asked their opinion.

http://www.alldeaf.com/movies-books-tv-media/67401-subtitle-positioning-movies-cinema.html

Listen guys, I dont' think you are getting my point. SDH or no SDH, my current display device won't display these anyhow. Sooo, a person who might be hard of hearing is handcuffed when watching anything via front projection (lest someone elses pj will do close captions). Regardless, the subtitles we see are all they'd have and if they can't read em, they're screwed for any movie, period.

Separate track? What track? Explain to me how to turn this track on with my current equipment so I can pretend I'm deaf and see a foreign language film using the captions vs the subtitles. InFocus X10?

My point is, there's more to this than just you and I watching a foreign language film.

Thanks Josh for the clarification. I didn't realize they were that short sided in their view. Sad for those of us with scope set ups. One of the first things I check is if the subtitles are in the letterbox, if so, it's a "no purchase" for me. But, as others have rightly pointed out, we are a very small share of the market.

For other members who have a projector set up....going scope is the next best decision I've made (going from big screen to projector being the first) in creating a cinematic experience in our home. Come visit the CIH forum to learn more.

rboster, you appear to have opted for a display set up which dictates which films you watch.

If 'going 'scope' actually stops you watching a film, I suggest it was a particularly flawed decision.

Isn't this a case of putting the cart before the horse?

Steve W

rboster, you appear to have opted for a display set up which dictates which films you watch.

If 'going 'scope' actually stops you watching a film, I suggest it was a particularly flawed decision.

Isn't this a case of putting the cart before the horse?

Steve W

The problem is not with the display - the display can show the movie as intended. The problem is tailoring and artificially restricting the movie for 16x9 displays by placing the subs in the black bar which is not part of the movie. The movie is 100% compatible with all existing and future display types if the slim-line well integrated HD subs were placed in the HD picture for effortless and seamless reading.

Listen guys, I dont' think you are getting my point. SDH or no SDH, my current display device won't display these anyhow. Sooo, a person who might be hard of hearing is handcuffed when watching anything via front projection (lest someone elses pj will do close captions). Regardless, the subtitles we see are all they'd have and if they can't read em, they're screwed for any movie, period.

Separate track? What track? Explain to me how to turn this track on with my current equipment so I can pretend I'm deaf and see a foreign language film using the captions vs the subtitles. InFocus X10?

My point is, there's more to this than just you and I watching a foreign language film.

I fully understand your point. I was thinking of this for sometime now. Would tailoring a movie and artificially restricting it to a particular display type by placing subs in the blackbar discriminate a particular disabled group of people and depriving them using CIH and new 21:9 displays ? I am not sure about the answer.

The problem is not with the display - the display can show the movie as intended. The problem is tailoring and artificially restricting the movie for 16x9 displays by placing the subs in the black bar which is not part of the movie. The movie is 100% compatible with all existing and future display types if the slim-line well integrated HD subs were placed in the HD picture for effortless and seamless reading.

As you can see, that's a big 'if'. And as they don't all do this, and you are aware that they don't, then you're letting your display dictate your viewing.

Steve W

As you can see, that's a big 'if'. And as they don't all do this, and you are aware that they don't, then you're letting your display dictate your viewing.

Steve W

I am glad to say that it is not a BIG IF. In my mind it is not an "if" at all.

This is a quote from the Hollywood insider Penton-Man:
"That's correct, I give no guarantee but, I *think* I can promote the idea enough to make it happen, i.e. Blu-ray subs about equal in size to their theatrical equivalent…..if Option #1 were to ultimately prove to become a new policy/practice."

Of course Penton-Man hasn't given any guarantees but in my mind 100% sure that the blu-ray subs will be scaled similar to the theater and integrated with the HD image so that people can read HD subs seamlessly and effortlessly even without realising that they are reading subs.:):):)

Josh- although they are reading the same subtitles as you, they are definitely reading them more often then those who aren't Deaf or HOH.

I can assure you that if I'm watching a movie in a language I don't speak, I'm reading all of the subtitles. I really can't imagine there are many others out there who don't.

Separate track? What track? Explain to me how to turn this track on with my current equipment so I can pretend I'm deaf and see a foreign language film using the captions vs the subtitles. InFocus X10?

Many DVDs and Blu-rays have two separate subtitle tracks encoded on the disc, one called "English Subtitles" and one called "English SDH". You can select which one you want from the disc menu. This is extremely common.

I can assure you that if I'm watching a movie in a language I don't speak, I'm reading all of the subtitles. I really can't imagine there are many others out there who don't.

No I am saying that Deaf people have the subtitles on in 100% of the media they view, rather than once in a while like most of people in this thread.

I posted the link to this forum in a Deaf forum and asked the same question, but unfortunatley did not get a big response. http://www.alldeaf.com/movies-books-tv-media/67401-subtitle-positioning-movies-cinema.html

I am just going to give my opinion on this topic and call it quits.

My vote is for the subtitles to be in the picture, rather than in the black bar. Having the subtitles in the picture lets you read and still be mostly focused on the movie.

I posted the link to this forum in a Deaf forum and asked the same question, but unfortunatley did not get a big response. http://www.alldeaf.com/movies-books-tv-media/67401-subtitle-positioning-movies-cinema.html


This does highlight a couple of things.

One, that this is a very esoteric issue to most people, hearing or otherwise. Most respondents seemed to think you were asking if the subs should be somewhere other than at the bottom of the screen -- such as at the top.

Two, that to people who need subtitles/captions before they can even really use the damn TV, the fine distinction we're discussing here is almost laughable.

Three, that the studios in question could fix this problem to satisfy CIH owners and most other people would never know anything had changed.

IOW, if it had always been this way -- titles entirely in the picture area on all films, regardless of aspect ratio -- there would probably be little grousing that they're not in the black bars.

This does highlight a couple of things.

One, that this is a very esoteric issue to most people, hearing or otherwise. Most respondents seemed to think you were asking if the subs should be somewhere other than at the bottom of the screen -- such as at the top.

Two, that to people who need subtitles/captions before they can even really use the damn TV, the fine distinction we're discussing here is almost laughable.

Three, that the studios in question could fix this problem to satisfy CIH owners and most other people would never know anything had changed.

IOW, if it had always been this way -- titles entirely in the picture area on all films, regardless of aspect ratio -- there would probably be little grousing that they're not in the black bars.

very good points.

I am glad to say that it is not a BIG IF. In my mind it is not an "if" at all.

This is a quote from the Hollywood insider Penton-Man:
"That's correct, I give no guarantee but, I *think* I can promote the idea enough to make it happen, i.e. Blu-ray subs about equal in size to their theatrical equivalent…..if Option #1 were to ultimately prove to become a new policy/practice."

Of course Penton-Man hasn't given any guarantees but in my mind 100% sure that the blu-ray subs will be scaled similar to the theater and integrated with the HD image so that people can read HD subs seamlessly and effortlessly even without realising that they are reading subs.:):):)

Even if every studio and broadcaster changed tomorrow, and all future releases were 'safe', we'd still be left with a big problem.

Over at another place I have a list of my 75 favourite films.

Of these 31 are already out on Blu-ray Disc, or have been formerly announced - that's over 40%.

Steve W

There is an outcome to the subtitle poll.:) The Hollywood insider Penton-Man has announced that they are planning on moving forward with Option #1, i.e. placing subs fully within the picture. This would make subtitled blu-ray movies (from Sony) are fully compatible with all current and future displays.

Warner is the other studio placing subs in the black bar. Hope they will take the same direction considering the outcome of the poll and other many important factors discussed during the poll.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=2179087&posted=1#post2179087

There is an outcome to the subtitle poll.:) The Hollywood insider Penton-Man has announced that they are planning on moving forward with Option #1, i.e. placing subs fully within the picture. This would make subtitled blu-ray movies (from Sony) are fully compatible with all current and future displays.

Warner is the other studio placing subs in the black bar. Hope they will take the same direction considering the outcome of the poll and other many important factors discussed during the poll.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=2179087&posted=1#post2179087
Syncguy, thanks for alerting all the Blu-ray enthusiasts who hang out primarily on this forum.

I would personally like to thank all the AVS membership for their participation, without which the poll thread would not have been such a huge success.

This is awesome!

This is awesome!
Thank you very much. :)

There sure are a lot of people on the internet having a handle with the first name being "shark" :eek:

I've always been fearful of the ones with stripes.

Penton-Man,

Thanks for the poll!

Speaking of proper subtitles (content as well as placement within the image as done theatrically)...

What happened (if you know) to Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon's subtitles on Blu-ray?? The theatrical English subtitles were painstakingly researched and written by James Schamus and Ang Lee to be as faithful as possible to the Mandarin dialog spoken and the original script.

The subtitles on the Blu-ray are simplified to the point where they no longer have the depth and "precision" of the original theatrical English subs. It really, really hurts the film.

Magnolia Films was lambasted for screwing up the subtitles on Let The Right One In on Blu-ray and DVD. They are currently re-releasing this title with the correct theatrical subtitles due to the outcry.

If Magnolia can fix their mistake on a cult-classic, low budget foreign language horror title (though painfully slow in doing so), why can't a large studio like Sony and in the process properly place the original theatrical James Schamus and Ang Lee written English subtitles within the frame as should have been done in the first place?

We were very disappointed with the original transfer of The Fifth Element and Sony, rightly, issued a re-mastered version. This is no less of a problem as it truly affects the actual story telling of an Academy Award winning film, and a beautifully realized wuxia epic to boot.

Thank you for your time.

It's good that the best of the three options got the most votes.

Let's hope that its a baby step toward the perfect option, which would be for all subtitles to be movable and resizable. That would clearly satisfy all users.

Scott

It's good that the best of the three options got the most votes.

Let's hope that its a baby step toward the perfect option, which would be for all subtitles to be movable and resizable. That would clearly satisfy all users.

Scott

+1

Kudos to Josh for going the extra mile on this one.

Now it would be a nice surprise if they could implement the ability to move and resize the subs.

I won't hold my breath too long though.......