Hello,

I am planning to buy a plasma TV , specifically looking at the Panasonic g10 and v10 series.
I will be wall mounting it in the living room. I wanted to hear out on the light factor for plasma. The LCDs look better in brightly lit rooms but I do not want an LCD.

The room has big glass door which opens out to the balcony. The portion of the wall where I want to mount the TV is right next to the glass door/window, but at an angle of may be 30 degrees.
Due to the glass door/window, the room is sufficiently well lit during the day. I have drapes on which I close sometimes if the sun light is too much to watch TV.

My main issue is watching the plasma TV during the day. I saw the G10 under the lights at BB. The picture looked very dull ( will have to go back and check if the settings were tinkered).

I would like to hear out any suggestions which can guide me to set up the TV. Does any one know if the G10 has settings you can use for a medium to brightly lit room ? Does the PQ differ with these settings? I checked out the V10 in the BB magnolia section. The picture was not as dull as the G10 under lights.
I live in the north east and so the early sunsets during winter should help me in this regard.

Thanks!

Here is my opinion on the subject of LCD and Plasma daytime and night time viewing. I have had both and examined them over many yrs.

In the daytime Plasma is going to lose to any LCD that has a semi gloss or Matte finish. The plasma and LCD with gloss finish on the screen is going to reflect everything like, well, glass.

Not that the glossy LCD or Plasma isn't viewable, It is. Depending on angle brightness and sunlight I am sure they are viewable. There is no doubt however that Matte and Semi gloss finishes are easier to view. Some of this also is dependable on what you consider viewable.

Next up is Black reproduction. What I find is that good LCD's like Sony and Samsung that have higher contrast ratios and black screens have better black color during the day hrs. An example of this is if you look at say a Sony LCD and Panasonic Plasma side by side in day time or in store with the sets OFF you will see the LCD is darker darker darker. Even with the screens on the LCD black area looks black and the plasma dark areas look gray. This leads to darker darks in daytime viewing. Probably also leads to people buying LCD more than plasma in a way :).

But when the sun goes down rest assured the plasma is going to be darker than the LCD. There is good reason for this trick that no one seems to ever mention in comparison sites or on these forums.

The reason is that the plasma pixels produce thier own light. The image itself on the plasma is producing the light. On an LCD the image is being lit from behind. What this means is the dark area of an LCD has a glow to it from the light behind the picture in a dark room. The Plasma does not have any light behind dark areas of the image. In a darkened room it is easier to see the light behind the black area on an LCD than to see the Dark area that has no light behind it on a plasma.

If however you use some bias lighting or have a semi lit viewing area at night this doesnt matter to much on the LCD. If the light in the room is brighter than the light seeping thru the black area of the LCD blacks will look very very black.

In the end whatever makes you happy. For me IR and my previous incidents with burn in, Along with matte screen and alot of daytime and night viewing. LCD was the choice for me.

Thanks serialmike

I also have owned plasma and LCD. Without disagreeing with anything serialmike said (I thought he was fair and accurate) there is one more factor to consider which is the location of the sunlit windows and glass doors in the room the set will be in.

The worst case is when the outside light is coming from the wall behind the viewer, or (almost as bad) from that same wall but offset from the viewer either left or right. Under those circumstance you will see the reflected images from the windows or doors in a shiny-surfaced plasma or LCD, and the fix is to own a matte-finish LCD.

The best case is similar to the room you described, where the sunlit window or door is on the same wall as the TV itself. This makes seeing any reflections in the glass screen nearly impossible.

The cases where more information is required are where the sunlit windows or doors are on the sidewalls. You really need to know things about the room geometry, specificly the placement of TV, windows/doors, and the viewer seating locations, to tell if reflections will trouble you.

But based on the room descrioption provided by maxedout, his situation sounds like the best case scenario, he therefore would be free to indulge his preference for Plasma in the room described.

Every viewing environment is different and typically the best way to know if reflections and glare substantially affect your viewing enjoyment is to put a screen in there and test it out. If the reflections off the plaz make the set unviewable, exchange for something that works. The ease of exchange when dealing with a B&M is the main advantage of buying there.

I went matte screen LCD in my family room... tons of light, and plamsa in my bedroom where glare and reflections were almost non-existant.

Good luck with your purchase.

The ease of exchange when dealing with a B&M is the main advantage of buying there.

Exactly.

I would never buy a TV online if I had any inkling or any thoughts I wasn't going to keep it for sure.

One thing that can hurt plasma for daytime viewing is not having a tinted screen. Always keep in mind that during the daytime your black levels will only be as good as your TV when it's turned off. With bright content on the screen it will look much darker but with dark scenes what you see is what you get. Because of this I would consider the Samsung plasmas (B650 or better). And LCD will obviously hold up better in the daytime over a plasma like in most cases the plasma will hold up better in a lower light setting over an LCD.

People make comments about bright rooms often on how their plasmas hold up but honestly it's all going to boil down to how much light is in YOUR environment and not from member A or member B.

Serialmike made many good points, but I have to disagree with his closing statement. Burn in is not an issue, repeat not an issue, with current plasma units.

As the owner of both LCD and plasma I have to say the one downfall of LCD is the viewing angle, it's there, it's real, and it's documented. For me that's a deal killer. My Sammy LN40B650 is sitting in my bedroom, where it has a very good image when I lay in bed, but if I move too far to the left, right, up or down from center the picture looks like crap.

You have to decide which shortcomings bother you most and choose the other design. For me plasma wins every time.

Serialmike made many good points, but I have to disagree with his closing statement. Burn in is not an issue, repeat not an issue, with current plasma units.

As the owner of both LCD and plasma I have to say the one downfall of LCD is the viewing angle, it's there, it's real, and it's documented. For me that's a deal killer. My Sammy LN40B650 is sitting in my bedroom, where it has a very good image when I lay in bed, but if I move too far to the left, right, up or down from center the picture looks like crap.

You have to decide which shortcomings bother you most and choose the other design. For me plasma wins every time.

I never said burn in was an issue...

"For me IR and my previous incidents with burn in"

I had 2 units with IR and burn in as late as 05. My parents had a pioneer in as late as 06 Burn in. These sets were supposed to be burn proof.

For me IR and burn in along with semi gloss screen and daytime viewing led me to choose LCD.

I just said what my previous experiences led me to. I never sad that burn in happens now. I dont have a plasma now because of the past. I wasnt willing to waste a few grand trying again. :)

Greetings

One could just customize the various viewing modes on the tv for different lighting conditions.

On my Samsung Plasma for instance ... I have a calibrated Dynamic mode for day time and sun light.

The Standard mode is calibrated for night time with lights on ...

The Movie mode is for light controlled viewing.

This has worked well for me ... with casual viewing of programming or movies very watchable in the day time ... just don't have the sun directly on the screen. Nothing can overcome that.

So on a Panny ... Vivid for Day time ... Standard for something in the middle ... and THX for controlled lighting viewing.

Burn in is still an issue ... just ask my friend why there are 4:3 bars on his Plasma bought in January. And he should have known better. Me ... none at all ... in the 7 years that I have owned and used plasma sets.

regards

Greetings

One could just customize the various viewing modes on the tv for different lighting conditions.

How do you adjust the reflection levels? :D Just kidding!

I agree with you about the different modes... in my office, I use typically use Standard and Movie on my Sammy 40B550 LCD, for daytime and nighttime respectively. I use Vivid as a special setting for a couple of SD stations that do not display well.

Greetings

Funny thing is ... for the past 50 years ... people have been watching a piece of glass in their home too. How come that wasn't an issue?

:)

regards

Greetings

Funny thing is ... for the past 50 years ... people have been watching a piece of glass in their home too. How come that wasn't an issue?

:)

regardsScreen sizes?

Screen sizes?

CRT and smaller sizes were infinitly brighter than Plasma with glass. LCD with glass and Projection with plexiglass.

You may want to put that FILM that you see on many high rise condo windows on your window and door. it's not very expensive, can be removed if you ever decide you don't want it.
The film does darken the room abit yet if you are in a sunny room it's just what you want.
You can buy and put it on yourself or have it put on professionally.By the way this is NOT the same film you see on the windows of cars.

I never said burn in was an issue...

"For me IR and my previous incidents with burn in"

I had 2 units with IR and burn in as late as 05. My parents had a pioneer in as late as 06 Burn in. These sets were supposed to be burn proof.

For me IR and burn in along with semi gloss screen and daytime viewing led me to choose LCD.

I just said what my previous experiences led me to. I never sad that burn in happens now. I dont have a plasma now because of the past. I wasnt willing to waste a few grand trying again. :)


If i miss took you comment I'm sorry. My issue is that there seems to be a somewhat rabid group of members here who spread FUD in regards to Plasma. Burn in, Burn in, Burn in, is their mantra. Burn in on a current production plasma is as likely as the LCD version of it, yes LCDs have their own version, it's just not happening.

Greetings

Funny thing is ... for the past 50 years ... people have been watching a piece of glass in their home too. How come that wasn't an issue?
Actually it was an issue or me on my old CRT. Most of my viewing time was at night and the kitchen is directly behind where I sat. With big overhead lights in the kitchen, anytime someone turned on those lights I could see a perfect reflection of the kitchen on the screen.

The matte screen has saved my sanity.

Funny thing is ... for the past 50 years ... people have been watching a piece of glass in their home too. How come that wasn't an issue?

I think it was always an issue, but most folks did not have a choice. Screens were smaller as well so the reflections may not have been as obvious. I know my 55" RPT was a mirror I lived with for 9 years. The living room blinds was used like a reverse toilet set... I closed the blinds, the wife opened 'em, I closed the blinds, the wife opened 'em, and so on.

Thankfully, we have options today.

CRT and smaller sizes were infinitly brighter than Plasma with glass. LCD with glass and Projection with plexiglass.

There is no way any CRT is brighter than an LCD. Plasmas problem isn't just reflections it's the picture washout that comes with it. LCDs/CRT don't wash out like a plasma. In fact LCDs look damn good in a sunlight room as long as there isn't too much glare and you can set the brightness as high as you please. This means even a very bright plasma like the highly touted Pios with their ISFcc modes at 50ftl+ will look like crap unless you blackout the room when an LCD at 40ftl might look fine.

There is no way any CRT is brighter than an LCD. Plasmas problem isn't just reflections it's the picture washout that comes with it. LCDs/CRT don't wash out like a plasma. In fact LCDs look damn good in a sunlight room as long as there isn't too much glare and you can set the brightness as high as you please. This means an even a very bright plasma like the highly touted Pios with their ISFcc modes at 50ftl+ will look like crap unless you blackout the room when an LCD at 40ftl might look fine.
This is exactly my experience with plasma.

My two biggest issues were:
1) Even with the room completly blacked out I couldn't get the picture bright enough.
2) Reflections when any light in the room.

You've stated why some of us own LCD.

Don't know what you guys are smoking. I had my plasma pro calibrated, get 40ftl, in a room with a 10' bay window on the east wall, and 48" wide full length windows on the south and north wall and I have no issue with brightness. I have no curtains on the windows during the day. The only thing is that I don't like neon people that glow in the dark on my tv screen, I prefer realistic human fleshtones.

Don't know what you guys are smoking. I had my plasma pro calibrated, get 40ftl, in a room with a 10' bay window on the east wall, and 48" wide full length windows on the south and north wall and I have no issue with brightness. I have no curtains on the windows during the day. The only thing is that I don't like neon people that glow in the dark on my tv screen, I prefer realistic human fleshtones.

I guess I must have vision problems and the Pioneer Kuro in my living room doesn't look gray and washed out during the day. Same thing for the Panasonic I owned before. All the people that say plasmas look like crap in stores must be visually impaired too.

The problem isn't brightness it's the way the plasma screen reacts to light, if you haven't seen or noticed this on your plasma and happily watch with all the windows open you obviously don't value a good picture. Any plasma owner who cares will black out the room to get the peak performance from their display, or else they might as well be watching big bad nasty LCDs (sarcasm intended)

Don't know what you guys are smoking. I had my plasma pro calibrated, get 40ftl, in a room with a 10' bay window on the east wall, and 48" wide full length windows on the south and north wall and I have no issue with brightness. I have no curtains on the windows during the day. The only thing is that I don't like neon people that glow in the dark on my tv screen, I prefer realistic human fleshtones.

My LCD is calbrated. There are no glowey people. Pretty sure that the review for my set shows that the color is more accurate than a panny plasma.

What I also know about my set is the darks at day are better than any plasma . At night thy are better than a lesser brand plasma and better than a 3 yr old panny plasma (I know because I compare it to my in laws every time I go there) which are pretty darn good,making them excellent.

You have many misconceptions of current day LCD.

The only major problem that the LCD manufacturers have not solved is the off-axis drop-off in picture quality.

Screen uniformity is a big issue too, motion isn't perfect. That's why owning both really seems to be the best of both worlds since they are both deeply flawed. I can't wait for some new display technology but companies seem to be happy with milking old outdated technology when they could have done something about this years ago.

I'd be willing to bet that 3 years from this day there will STILL be no OLED for at least a reasonable price (sub 5k) or size (50"+) People have been saying it's around the corner for years, I don't buy it anymore.

Screen uniformity is a big issue too, motion isn't perfect. That's why owning both really seems to be the best of both worlds since they are both deeply flawed. I can't wait for some new display technology but companies seem to be happy with milking old outdated technology when they could have done something about this years ago.

I'd be willing to bet that 3 years from this day there will STILL be no OLED for at least a reasonable price (sub 5k) or size (50"+) People have been saying it's around the corner for years, I don't buy it anymore.

I think this both camps will agree. Plasma and LCD is a tired arguement on two flawed technologies that do NOT fill the need for guys like us that want

The color black to be BLACK Day and Night on one set. Want accurate color. Want high contrast ratio. Want bright sets for daytime viewing. Want motion resolution loss to be due to the camera and the eye not the display. Want little to no gaming lag. Want no viewing angle loss.

I suspect its OLED and I suspect I'll be watching my LCD for 5+ probably closer to 10 yrs before I can get a 3K 50+ OLED

That's why owning both really seems to be the best of both worlds since they are both deeply flawed.
Theres three TV makers making plasma. Which one would you buy?

Samsung
Panasonic
LG.

Don't say Pio there no longer doing plasma.

Theres three TV makers making plasma. Which one would you buy?

Samsung
Panasonic
LG.

Don't say Pio there no longer doing plasma.

If I were to give up my LCD and go back to plasma. I would go Panny. To me there is only one manyfacturer on that list :)

Greetings

Panasonic has the best black levels of the bunch but not necessarily by a long shot. THX mode on the set is very accurate out of the box. .. not perfect but the best attempt yet. It has limitations though that most don't understand or know of. Watching in VIVID mode on the TV is like not having the THX thing at all.

Samsung can be made to be just as accurate as the Panasonic and even more so because the better plasmas give the users the controls to get the picture right. The TV modes are more customizable on the Samsung so that one can create calibrated day and night modes and modes in between. The THX mode for the Panny is a night mode and the user is on their own during the day time.

LG has their THX modes too but they are more customizable than the Panasonic. LG also has ISF modes to set up specific day and night modes. More tweakable than the panasonic.

Panny usually most expensive ... then Samsung ... then LG.

Bottom Line ... Better blacks versus better customize ability. Although better black levels don't really help the Panny during the day time. All three sets seem equally black. The power of daylight.

regards

I guess I must have vision problems and the Pioneer Kuro in my living room doesn't look gray and washed out during the day. Same thing for the Panasonic I owned before. All the people that say plasmas look like crap in stores must be visually impaired too.

The problem isn't brightness it's the way the plasma screen reacts to light, if you haven't seen or noticed this on your plasma and happily watch with all the windows open you obviously don't value a good picture. Any plasma owner who cares will black out the room to get the peak performance from their display, or else they might as well be watching big bad nasty LCDs (sarcasm intended)

Perhaps it depends on what you are watching. I don't do any serious watching during the day. If I was was going to watch a movie I'd close the drapes and settle in, but to catch the news or check a score I have no issues. If I wasn't particular about my display I would not have spent the money on calibration.

My 50" Sammy is not a Kuro, perhaps it's good that it's not, but I can't fault it's image during the day. It most certainly is not "gray and washed out". My calibrator and I discussed viewing patterns and he took into account a moderate level of light. i also did not position with a window interfering with the image.

I guess if you can happily live with the limitations of LCD, I can happily live with my plasma and what ever limitations you may feel it has...

Theres three TV makers making plasma. Which one would you buy?

Samsung
Panasonic
LG.

Don't say Pio there no longer doing plasma.

Samsung, same for LCD. If I had to choose one I'm no longer sure my main display would be a plasma though due to current choices.

Perhaps it depends on what you are watching. I don't do any serious watching during the day. If I was was going to watch a movie I'd close the drapes and settle in, but to catch the news or check a score I have no issues. If I wasn't particular about my display I would not have spent the money on calibration.

My 50" Sammy is not a Kuro, perhaps it's good that it's not, but I can't fault it's image during the day. It most certainly is not "gray and washed out". My calibrator and I discussed viewing patterns and he took into account a moderate level of light. i also did not position with a window interfering with the image.

I guess if you can happily live with the limitations of LCD, I can happily live with my plasma and what ever limitations you may feel it has...

Samsung might do better during the day, but the Kuro does not look good during the day.

As for living with the limitations of LCD that's the beauty of owning both.

I think this both camps will agree. Plasma and LCD is a tired arguement on two flawed technologies that do NOT fill the need for guys like us that want

The color black to be BLACK Day and Night on one set. Want accurate color. Want high contrast ratio. Want bright sets for daytime viewing. Want motion resolution loss to be due to the camera and the eye not the display. Want little to no gaming lag. Want no viewing angle loss.

I suspect its OLED and I suspect I'll be watching my LCD for 5+ probably closer to 10 yrs before I can get a 3K 50+ OLED

Totally agree, it's unfortunate that it's this way but this damned recession isn't helping any either. Technology is pretty stagnant right now, consumer and computers. Hopefully the economy picks up and R&D along with it.

My Kuro looks very good during the day; as good as if not better than any other display I've seen under the lighting conditions of my livingroom at its brightest. But when you have significant sunlight directly hitting the screen of your television (as some do) a matte screen will be better than a glossy screen, but only by so much.

In such a case I would look to a cheap LCD for livingroom duties, as your PQ is going to be significantly compromised regardless. My parents have a matte screen LCD in front of three large windows, and when the sun is beating in on it it's a washed out mess. No, it's not very reflective, but it looks like a pile of poo all the same.

Currently available high-end TVs of ANY stripe require at least some degree of light control to excel. If you're putting out the bucks to land such a display, plunking it down into a mountain of direct light is a waste, IMO. It's like buying a Ferrari if you lived in a climate where you'd be surrounded by snow nearly every day. Why bother?

Some of us out here have fabulous views and have no particular desire to live in a cave. We still want to watch TV sometimes during the day - the last time I checked college football and the NFL are played very often in the daytime! Same goes for Nascar and F1 and many other sports.

My great room is very open with loads of windows so whatever set I end up with will most likely have a matte screen and be reasonable during the day.

Some of us out here have fabulous views and have no particular desire to live in a cave. We still want to watch TV sometimes during the day - the last time I checked college football and the NFL are played very often in the daytime! Same goes for Nascar and F1 and many other sports.

My great room is very open with loads of windows so whatever set I end up with will most likely have a matte screen and be reasonable during the day.

Love pro football and Nascar racing in HD on my plasma and I have 6 windows in the room where I watch it that have mini blinds to help control the light. No cave at my house and I have an LCD in a smaller adjacent room but with only 2 windows and the plasma generally has a better picture both night and day. Those that say you need a cave to enjoy a plasma picture are usually those that have never had a plasma or seem to have a personal agenda against plasma. Not sure why as they're just TVs. :)

Have to agree. Lots of miss information on plasmas out there. Owning both, plasma get the edge. I have no issues with washed out colors during the day, colors look fine. I however do have issues with the limited viewing area with my LCD.

Love pro football and Nascar racing in HD on my plasma and I have 6 windows in the room where I watch it that have mini blinds to help control the light. No cave at my house and I have an LCD in a smaller adjacent room but with only 2 windows and the plasma generally has a better picture both night and day. Those that say you need a cave to enjoy a plasma picture are usually those that have never had a plasma or seem to have a personal agenda against plasma. Not sure why as they're just TVs. :)If you have windows nearby a plasma and not directly behind you (or nearly directly behind) the gloss screen on a plasma works for you.

Having a matte or semi-matte screen with light striking the surface of the screen from the side produces glare, you don't see this on a gloss screen. With everything there are tradeoffs.

This is exactly my experience with plasma. My two biggest issues were:

1) Even with the room completly blacked out I couldn't get the picture bright enough.

2) Reflections when any light in the room.That has to be a complete and utter exaggeration. Even my four year old plasma (which is relatively dim compared to my new G10) is totally watchable in a bright room, and is too bright in a dark room so if your Plasma wasn't bright enough for you in a completely blacked out room then you obviously have very abnormal brightness requirements when it comes to your TV.

I like a bright TV and i love that about my LCD TVs but for you to say that a Plasma isn't bright enough even in a blacked out room is absolutely rediculous and proves that your comments on the subject should be ignored. You haven't even seen how bright the new Panasonic models are - they're a lot brighter than last year's models and even more brighter than the 2007 models. I had the contrast on my 2005 model turned all the way up and it was plenty bright, but on my new G10 i have to dial it back to 80% because anything higher than that is too bright.

Gary McCoy summed it up very well earlier, there are a lot of factors that will determine if a particular room's environment will be a problem with a Plasma or a glossy-screened LCD TV or not. LCDs aren't immune either - my good buddy replaced a mirror-like RPTV with a big matte Sony XBR LCD TV and on a sunny afternoon, the light shining through the windows behind the couch show up as a big washed out round blob filling most of the screen.

Here's an old but still good thread about the issue:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769318

And here is my old 2005 Plasma showing SD content with afternoon sunlight pouring in from my west-facing window and as you all can see the screen is plenty bright enough:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/502/Plasma_in_Afternoon_Sunlight_5-7-06_a.jpg

I don't see how oldcband can say that his Plasma wasn't bright enough in a completely blacked out room when this picture shows the exact opposite. His hatred for Plasma TVs shows in almost every one of his posts.

Nice picture Randy and clearly shows that a plasma can offer a good quality picture during the day which is what my experience has been. It's unfortunate that we have some posters as mentioned in your post that clearly have some sort of built up hatred towards a TV tech and go out of their way to be annoying and misinformative.

That has to be a complete and utter exaggeration. Even my four year old plasma (which is relatively dim compared to my new G10) is totally watchable in a bright room, and is too bright in a dark room so if your Plasma wasn't bright enough for you in a completely blacked out room then you obviously have very abnormal brightness requirements when it comes to your TV.

I like a bright TV and i love that about my LCD TVs but for you to say that a Plasma isn't bright enough even in a blacked out room is absolutely rediculous and proves that your comments on the subject should be ignored. You haven't even seen how bright the new Panasonic models are - they're a lot brighter than last year's models and even more brighter than the 2007 models. I had the contrast on my 2005 model turned all the way up and it was plenty bright, but on my new G10 i have to dial it back to 80% because anything higher than that is too bright.

Gary McCoy summed it up very well earlier, there are a lot of factors that will determine if a particular room's environment will be a problem with a Plasma or a glossy-screened LCD TV or not. LCDs aren't immune either - my good buddy replaced a mirror-like RPTV with a big matte Sony XBR LCD TV and on a sunny afternoon, the light shining through the windows behind the couch show up as a big washed out round blob filling most of the screen.

Here's an old but still good thread about the issue:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769318

And here is my old 2005 Plasma showing SD content with afternoon sunlight pouring in from my west-facing window and as you all can see the screen is plenty bright enough:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/502/Plasma_in_Afternoon_Sunlight_5-7-06_a.jpg

I don't see how oldcband can say that his Plasma wasn't bright enough in a completely blacked out room when this picture shows the exact opposite. His hatred for Plasma TVs shows in almost every one of his posts.

This is an optimal situation. Light and windows form behind has no effect on the image. In fact it hels as it is bias lighting to the eys helping to increase percieved black levels.

Light and windows from the sides and behind the viewer get reflected in the glass. This is what washes the image out just like a CRT or glossy LCD.

Notice the image was shot from the side as to not show any reflections and

That has to be a complete and utter exaggeration. Even my four year old plasma (which is relatively dim compared to my new G10) is totally watchable in a bright room, and is too bright in a dark room so if your Plasma wasn't bright enough for you in a completely blacked out room then you obviously have very abnormal brightness requirements when it comes to your TV.

I like a bright TV and i love that about my LCD TVs but for you to say that a Plasma isn't bright enough even in a blacked out room is absolutely rediculous and proves that your comments on the subject should be ignored. You haven't even seen how bright the new Panasonic models are - they're a lot brighter than last year's models and even more brighter than the 2007 models. I had the contrast on my 2005 model turned all the way up and it was plenty bright, but on my new G10 i have to dial it back to 80% because anything higher than that is too bright.

Gary McCoy summed it up very well earlier, there are a lot of factors that will determine if a particular room's environment will be a problem with a Plasma or a glossy-screened LCD TV or not. LCDs aren't immune either - my good buddy replaced a mirror-like RPTV with a big matte Sony XBR LCD TV and on a sunny afternoon, the light shining through the windows behind the couch show up as a big washed out round blob filling most of the screen.

Here's an old but still good thread about the issue:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769318

And here is my old 2005 Plasma showing SD content with afternoon sunlight pouring in from my west-facing window and as you all can see the screen is plenty bright enough:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/502/Plasma_in_Afternoon_Sunlight_5-7-06_a.jpg

I don't see how oldcband can say that his Plasma wasn't bright enough in a completely blacked out room when this picture shows the exact opposite. His hatred for Plasma TVs shows in almost every one of his posts.

This is in fact the ideal setup for watching plasma during the day. The bright light is coming from behind the screen.

Ironicly, for daytime use with such intense bias lighting, you would get an even better image from a bright LCD. You would not for example be able to notice any light coming from the black areas of the LCD image, because intense bias lighting closes down the iris of the eye (that's the principle).

Also I can't help but notice that this picture was taken from an angle that is both above the screen image and well off to the side, by an angle that I estimate to be at least 40 degrees. That is the ideal way to suppress reflected images. If you want to sit directly in front of the screen and let the sunlight fall on you and then take an image of that shiny glass screen from your eye height, I don't think your point would be made.

By the way, the people who know the most about burn-in issues with plasma are the manufacturers who must administer the warranty claims on their products. Last time I owned a Panasonic plasma (2007) those warnings were very prominent in the Owner's Manual. Last time I downloaded a Panasonic plasma manual (2009) they were still present, as they were the last time I downloaded and read a Samsung plasma manual (2008). It is important to note this because continued abuse of a plasma set under the conditions shown in this photograph (high brightness and a 4:3 image with black sidebars) for hours per day might produce screen damage not covered under the manufacturer's warranty.

I'm not going to disclose the brand name of the commercial plasma sets I'm talking about. At my workplace we have several 60" plasmas which are in the cafeterias and several smaller 42" sets that are in coffee break rooms. One break room has been taken over by a group of women obsessed with the same soap opera which they have been viewing at mid day in 4:3 for 4+ years. The cafeteria sets are typically tuned to CNN Headline News channel or FNN every weekday for several hours for the morning and noon meals. Those feeds up until June of this year were SD 4:3 images, now we have the 16:9 HD images and you can easily see heightened brightness from the pillarbox areas of the plasma panels, the 4:3 area in the center has permanently reduced brightness.

I believe that knowledgeable AVS members who continuously preach the mantra that modern plasma panels are immune to burn-in are not acting responsibly. I know that no AVS member would abuse an expensive plasma set that they owned in the same fashion that these company-owned sets are abused. But reccomending plasma technology to people who don't know enough about what they are doing to avoid screen damage is irresponsible in the extreme.

By the way, the commercial plasmas at work are being replaced by LCD screens. I think thats a good call seeing how they get abused.

This is in fact the ideal setup for watching plasma during the day. The bright light is coming from behind the screen.

Ironicly, for daytime use with such intense bias lighting, you would get an even better image from a bright LCD. You would not for example be able to notice any light coming from the black areas of the LCD image, because intense bias lighting closes down the iris of the eye (that's the principle).

Also I can't help but notice that this picture was taken from an angle that is both above the screen image and well off to the side, by an angle that I estimate to be at least 40 degrees. That is the ideal way to suppress reflected images. If you want to sit directly in front of the screen and let the sunlight fall on you and then take an image of that shiny glass screen from your eye height, I don't think your point would be made.

By the way, the people who know the most about burn-in issues with plasma are the manufacturers who must administer the warranty claims on their products. Last time I owned a Panasonic plasma (2007) those warnings were very prominent in the Owner's Manual. Last time I downloaded a Panasonic plasma manual (2009) they were still present, as they were the last time I downloaded and read a Samsung plasma manual (2008). It is important to note this because continued abuse of a plasma set under the conditions shown in this photograph (high brightness and a 4:3 image with black sidebars) for hours per day might produce screen damage not covered under the manufacturer's warranty.

I'm not going to disclose the brand name of the commercial plasma sets I'm talking about. At my workplace we have several 60" plasmas which are in the cafeterias and several smaller 42" sets that are in coffee break rooms. One break room has been taken over by a group of women obsessed with the same soap opera which they have been viewing at mid day in 4:3 for 4+ years. The cafeteria sets are typically tuned to CNN Headline News channel or FNN every weekday for several hours for the morning and noon meals. Those feeds up until June of this year were SD 4:3 images, now we have the 16:9 HD images and you can easily see heightened brightness from the pillarbox areas of the plasma panels, the 4:3 area in the center has permanently reduced brightness.

I believe that knowledgeable AVS members who continuously preach the mantra that modern plasma panels are immune to burn-in are not acting responsibly. I know that no AVS member would abuse an expensive plasma set that they owned in the same fashion that these company-owned sets are abused. But reccomending plasma technology to people who don't know enough about what they are doing to avoid screen damage is irresponsible in the extreme.

By the way, the commercial plasmas at work are being replaced by LCD screens. I think thats a good call seeing how they get abused.

That's such BS gary.

I have had a plasma for 3+ years now and several others have documented their experiences with them in this forum also and I don't hand hold or babysit my TV and have no problems with my set whatsoever. In fact the only problem I have had with any of my sets is a Samsung LCD. Why can't some of you fools get over your extreme bias against a technology? You chose your set for whatever reason and us that chose plasma chose it for our own personal reasons. If you have a problem with that and those of us that recommend them to others then that's your problem, not ours. This whole plasma vs LCD crap has gone on long enough. :rolleyes:

This is an optimal situation. Light and windows form behind has no effect on the image. In fact it hels as it is bias lighting to the eys helping to increase percieved black levels.

Light and windows from the sides and behind the viewer get reflected in the glass. This is what washes the image out just like a CRT or glossy LCD.

Notice the image was shot from the side as to not show any reflections and



Optimal? You guys have been preaching all along that a plasma belongs in a cave room. Now windows with sunshine coming through is optimal? Please make up you minds as now I have to pull all the boards off my windows.

Since it's picture time, here you go...

There's one window behind and to the right of the set. There is another window directly perpendicular to the right side.

There are 2 recessed light sources directly in front of the screen, and several other lights within view of the set. There is a 3rd large window off to the side at roughly a 45 degree angle to the screen.

It's a bright, sunny day and all of the blinds are open. Hardly cave conditions.

Does this picture look dim and/or washed out to the point that it's nigh unviewable?





http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Day1.jpg





Here's an angled shot, taken under the same conditions:





http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Snow3.jpg

Optimal? You guys have been preaching all along that a plasma belongs in a cave room. Now windows with sunshine coming through is optimal? Please make up you minds as now I have to pull all the boards off my windows.


There are no reflections when the sun is behind the TV. I only preach when there are reflections windows light to the sides of the set and behind the viewer. And when a Gamer.

Since it's picture time, here you go...

There's one window behind and to the right of the set. There is another window directly perpendicular to the right side.

There are 2 recessed light sources directly in front of the screen, and several other lights within view of the set. There is a 3rd large window off to the side at a roughly 45 degree angle to the screen.

It's a bright, sunny day and all of the blinds are open. Hardly cave conditions.

Does this picture look dim and/or washed out to the point that it's nigh unviewable?





http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Day1.jpg





Here's an angled shot, taken under the same conditions:





http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Snow3.jpg


Then take that shot midday like now and take it directly in front of the set. Angle shots are ********. That room is not very bright for a daytime picture with so called light reflections.

Already beat you to it. Direct shots, taken at roughly 2pm on a sunny day.






http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Day.jpg




http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Bird.jpg

Already beat you to it. Direct shots, taken at roughly 2pm on a sunny day.






http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Day.jpg

Better :) I would still like to see the shot proving the windows with the set but Ill take these and your word.



http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Bird.jpg


Better :) I would still like to see the shot proving the windows with the set but Ill take these and your word.

The only problem I have with this is I am staring at my Sony semi Matte screen right now. I have more relfection than you on the sceen itself mid day with a three panel window behind me and 2 singles to the right.
In the Glossy bezel on the set I see crystal clear mirror reflection with minimal reflection on my screen.

You have almost no reflection in your glossy bezel. In other words I dont see anything there to reflect off your screen.

Better :) I would still like to see the shot proving the windows with the set but Ill take these and your word.

Crappy picture, but you can see the location of two of the windows here...





http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/TVWindows.jpg

The only problem I have with this is I am staring at my Sony semi Matte screen right now. I have more relfection than you on the sceen itself mid day with a three panel window behind me and 2 singles to the right.
In the Glossy bezel on the set I see crystal clear mirror reflection with minimal reflection on my screen.

There is plenty that can and does reflect. I think the camera is subduing the reflections somewhat, especially in that last shot. I can see an image of the livingroom when the TV is off, but in the shot it looks black. I'm no pro-photographer by any stretch.

My point with the pictures is that the image is still bright, it isn't washed out to any horrible degree and it's perfectly watchable. Is it as impressive as it is with the lights off? Of course not, but it's certainly a far cry from what some of the LCD fans would have you believe.

There is plenty that can and does reflect. I think the camera is subduing the reflections somewhat, especially in that last shot. I can see an image of the livingroom when the TV is off, but in the shot it looks black. I'm no pro-photographer by any stretch.

My point with the pictures is that the image is still bright, it isn't washed out to any horrible degree and it's perfectly watchable. Is it as impressive as it is with the lights off? Of course not, but it's certainly a far cry from what some of the LCD fans would have you believe.


From what I can see there That is not a situation that I would say is an LCD situation.

Mine with windows directly in front of the set is. As you can see from these images the reflection is very very clear and would be brighter and clearer on glass( they arent shot to show image quality dark levels or anything like that. They are shot to show how much reflection is in the bezel at daytime and it is cloudy today) But you can see just how much is diffused. And yes you can see the reflection pretty easily on Black dark scenes but it is very watchable and still much much less reflective Than glass. Or Glossy LCD.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv53/serialmike/v5100/DSC02039.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv53/serialmike/v5100/DSC02040.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv53/serialmike/v5100/DSC02041.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/ip06l5.jpg

Horrible experience.

And while we are busy debunking myths. I would like to provide proof that while there is some image loss due to view angle on LCD it is no where near as bad as some want you to believe.

Yes its there but it is not even worth mentioning next to projection which so many of us were used to.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv53/serialmike/DSC02042.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv53/serialmike/DSC02043.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv53/serialmike/DSC02044.jpg

I don't think what I'm seeing in your bezel is that much worse than what I see from the couch. Look at the top left of the Joker picture. There's a fairly strong, detailed reflection there that's worse in person, but it fades quite well once it hits the picture on the screen.

But anyway, no matter how you want to slice it, a modern, good quality plasma does not require a cave nor anything close to one in order to produce a good picture. My 91 year old grandfather can comfortably read something from the couch in the lighting conditions above, and the TV still looks fantastic.

http://i25.tinypic.com/ip06l5.jpg

Horrible experience.

Thats pretty much what my screen looked like when I had a plasma and the three weeks I had an a650 LCD.

Thats why I ran an SXRD and now the Sony LCD in my room.

I don't think what I'm seeing in your bezel is that much worse than what I see from the couch. Look at the top left of the Joker picture. There's a fairly strong, detailed reflection there that's worse in person, but it fades quite well once it hits the picture on the screen.

But anyway, no matter how you want to slice it, a modern, good quality plasma does not require a cave nor anything close to one in order to produce a good picture. My 91 year old grandfather can comfortably read something from the couch in the lighting conditions above, and the TV still looks fantastic.

I see yours. What I am saying is this is a cludy day here and those are only half as bright as a sunny one. And that may be an underestimate :)

http://i25.tinypic.com/ip06l5.jpg

Horrible experience.

That looks like a 5020, which uses a different (inferior) AR filter than the Elites/Monitors do. And go ahead, take that picture with a matte screen LCD with the flash on and tell me how great it looks.

That looks like a 5020, which uses a different (inferior) AR filter than the Elites/Monitors do. And go ahead, take that picture with a matte screen LCD with the flash on and tell me how great it looks.There are none so blind as those that will not see...

I see fine. And as I type this I am seeing a matte screen LCD that looks nice and washed out courtesy of the sunny windows in front of it. Light is the enemy of all TVs.

I will just note that once you get away from "the cave" and have ambient light in the room, the vaunted superiority of the plasma disappears, because ambient light is reflected off the screen. It is either reflected as a bright image off of a shiny screen, or as a slightly dimmer image off a shiny screen with an anti-reflective coating, or scattered as diffused light off of a matte-finish plastic screen.

So my question is not why so many of you are claiming that you can watch your plasma screens in daylight in a brightly lit room, but why you would want to do so when that is the very environment where an LCD is so visibly superior?

I NEVER have the dimmer lighting conditions where I admit a plasma would have a superior image. I either have sunlight during the day, or if at night the room lights are brightly lit. Even if the wife is not watching TV, she is probably in the adjacent kitchen or has her laptop and ledger books spread over the dining table, and the overhead lighting on brightly. We can darken the bedrooms and the home theater room, but not our greatroom. The horrible reflections in sharpbandaid's post #223 above are typical of what I saw with the Panasonic plasma - and earlier on the Sony VVega analog TV.

Here's what I think. About 80% of the time, the room can accept either Plasma or LCD. Either it is dark enough or the owner has added the window treatments until he is comfortable with the light levels. But the brightest 10% rooms are a corner case where a matte finish LCD is the better choice. Likewise, the darkest 10% are a corner case where the plasma is a better choice.

Beyond natural room illumination, the viewer's habits enter into the equation. As I have related before, my wife will sit next to me at night and turn on a bright reading lamp and read. Watching TV is not something she does full time, it is only part time. If you have a problem such as that, then it takes away from the 80% of rooms where either panel could be used, and you need an LCD set to deal with the problem. Under those conditions, the best plasma with the best AR coating is not enough if the other person on the same couch wants a quality image and no reflections.

It never ceases to amaze me the great lengths lcd owners/proponents will go to in order to find an area that an lcd excels over a plasma.
If the room has to much ambient light for a plasma imagine how poor the lcd must look as well. Seriously people.

It never ceases to amaze me the great lengths lcd owners/proponents will go to in order to find an area that an lcd excels over a plasma.
If the room has to much ambient light for a plasma imagine how poor the lcd must look as well. Seriously people.

LOL. Same could be said in reverse. Why you ask. Because both technologies have very bad flaws in them.

I have a Kuro and day, night, midnight, dawn, solar eclipse, whenever I still get reference standard picture quality everytime. I can't speak for other brands however. :D

LOL. Same could be said in reverse. Why you ask. Because both technologies have very bad flaws in them.

I'm actually waiting for the "LCD vs. Plasma while on the beach", "LCD vs Plasma while sitting on a mountain" or "LCD vs. Plasma while in a space ship orbiting the Sun" threads. :)

LOL. Same could be said in reverse. Why you ask. Because both technologies have very bad flaws in them.

I would disagree as today's TV's for the most part are superior to TVs of old. I had a Pioneer Elite RPTV for several years that was one of the best and top of the line and my plasma blows it away and I also had a Mitsubishi 30" and JVC 32" CRT that had just an okay picture to them. No way would I ever be interested in going back to a 32" in my main viewing area and something that takes two men to be able to move.

Todays TVs aren't perfect but to call them " very badly flawed " is a foolish over statement. Would I like better? sure, but for what's available I'm more than satisfied. Rather than looking for small flaws, sit back and enjoy your set. :)

If you have a problem such as that, then it takes away from the 80% of rooms where either panel could be used, and you need an LCD set to deal with the problem.

That is quite the exaggeration. I often watch my TV with several lights turned on. One reading lamp would barely register as a reflection on my TV. All of the pictures I posted above where the TV is turned on were taken with several (eight or nine) lights turned on in the room, in addition to the three sunny windows. If you couldn't comfortably read in that room, you have a serious problem.

I do agree with you that there are extremes at both ends of the spectrum where one tech would would clearly be preferred over the other without much disagreement, but your reading-lamp scenerio is certainly not among them.

I remain unconvinced by your words. This IS a Pioneer and the Panasonic I had had the same problem.
http://i25.tinypic.com/ip06l5.jpg
There is NO WAY whatsoever a plasma is acceptable in this room, or in mine. The photograph proves that, but you are not acknowledging the truth.

^^^
Notice also, if you closed those blinds you can see the light get through between the slats.

Windows or lighting behind the seating area will never work unless you blackout any light.

My semi gloss Samsung panel works just fine in a setup like this. But its better with a tilt down wall mount.

I remain unconvinced by your words. This IS a Pioneer and the Panasonic I had had the same problem.

There is far more than a single reading lamp there. There are several windows, a door, and a camera flash. How does any of that relate to your wife reading at night? You need to keep up with your own anecdotes.

And like I said, the 5020 AR filter is not as strong as the one used with the Elites/Monitors. It's not enough that it'd make a huge difference in that room, but it's definitely a bit better.

And that room is not suitable for ANY TV if your desire is to achieve an excellent picture. At that point it's a matter of choosing the lesser evil.

And that room is not suitable for ANY TV if your desire is to achieve an excellent picture.
My room is very similar with a window behind the seating area. And my semi gloss Samsung works excellent anytime of the day.:)

Also with my plasma in the same postion it only worked when blacked out.

"Just fine" and "excellent" are two different things.

My TV is also just fine during the day, and excellent with the lighting dimmed. I have never seen an excellent picture from any display with that amount of direct ambient lighting or more.

My room is very similar with a window behind the seating area. And my semi gloss Samsung works excellent anytime of the day.:)

Also with my plasma in the same postion it only worked when blacked out.

No it doesn't as I have the exact same set as you and it's not excellent any time of the day. It might be better than most plasmas in that situation but it's definitely not excellent as there will still be reflections and Samsungs have some of the most reflective bezels (much more than my pioneer). Anyone that watches TV with a window directly behind the sitting are with direct sunlight coming in isn't going to have a very good viewing experience with any set.

Your hatred for plasma clearly shows your agenda and it's not to help people choose a set. :rolleyes:

"Just fine" and "excellent" are two different things.

My TV is also just fine during the day, and excellent with the lighting dimmed. I have never seen an excellent picture from any display with that amount of direct ambient lighting or more.

lol, I hadn't scrolled down yet and seen your post when I replied to the same post. :D

Since it's picture time, here you go...

There's one window behind and to the right of the set. There is another window directly perpendicular to the right side.

There are 2 recessed light sources directly in front of the screen, and several other lights within view of the set. There is a 3rd large window off to the side at roughly a 45 degree angle to the screen.

It's a bright, sunny day and all of the blinds are open. Hardly cave conditions.

Does this picture look dim and/or washed out to the point that it's nigh unviewable?





http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Day1.jpg





Here's an angled shot, taken under the same conditions:





http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/Snow3.jpg


Come on... it's clear that these pictures are not a true representation of your picture. Look at how dark the TV base is in the first pic. Either you or the camera has set the image to give the TV's picture optimal quality. A true representation would have the entire picture, especially the room, much brighter showing your PQ to have much less contrast.

In the second pic your body is obviously blocking the light source, so it's clearly not taken under the same conditions. Of course we won't see any reflections or glare if you're blocking the windows.

My response is not meant to support one technology or the other, but to point out that these pictures are not a true indication of the performance of this screen in a bright viewing environment. It's not a cave either... :)

I remain unconvinced by your words. This IS a Pioneer and the Panasonic I had had the same problem.
http://i25.tinypic.com/ip06l5.jpg
There is NO WAY whatsoever a plasma is acceptable in this room, or in mine. The photograph proves that, but you are not acknowledging the truth.

Take a picture with an actual film on there and don't shine everything at it at once, by the way your missing a candle light and the batman sign. :D If you have every light in existence shining on any TV you'll get the same result. Don't you pull a best buy and dim the settings down internally either. :) j/k I'm sure your honest right.............................

Crappy picture, but you can see the location of two of the windows here...





http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/tbird8450/TVWindows.jpg

tbird... I would also have to say that your viewing environment is not a very bright room either. Your 2pm on a sunny day is my 6pm on a cloudy day (Florida). Absent any other stubborn lamps, a glossy screen would perform well in your viewing room. In a truly bright environment where the window area is triple what you have, and glass sliding doors are present... glare and reflections WILL substantial impact one's viewing satisfaction.

Come on... it's clear that these pictures are not a true representation of your picture.

You're right, it's not a true representation. In person, it looks far, far better.

And I used the automatic setting on my camera for these pictures. I know zero about photography and wouldn't know how to "optimize" these pictures even if I wanted to. In person, the images are far more detailed.

And I'm only partially blocking some of the light from one window in the second picture there. I am not blocking any light in the other three.

tbird... I would also have to say that your viewing environment is not a very bright room either.

There are no lights turned on in that picture. I only posted it to show the location of two of the windows. The light you see there is being generated only from those windows. In each of the other pictures, every light in the room is turned on.

http://i25.tinypic.com/ip06l5.jpg

Horrible experience.

Of course it was a horrible experience.

The person in that photo turned on every light, opend up every window on all sides, AND EVEN TURNED THE CAMERA FLASH ON IN THIS SUPER BRIGHT ENVIORNMENT.

Its so blatantly obvious that the one taking the picture was doing all he/she could to make the set look as bad a possible.

In real life, your goal will be to make the TV look good in ambient light. And you'll set your ambient light at normal levels. The result will be what T-Birds pictures show. Great picture, and normal ambient light levels.

But don't take a pictures word for it.

how bout a little video????

Pro-141fd in bright room (http://www.**************.com/showthread.php?t=97)

Sony LCD Glare issue (http://www.**************.com/showthread.php?t=89)

Samsung LCD reflections (http://www.**************.com/showthread.php?t=1035)

If you turned off all the lights and closed the blinds the light that gets through the pleats of the blinds would drive you crazy.

Bottom line is a glossy screen with a window behind the seating area can't be tolerated.

Unless you black out the room.

If you turned off all the lights and closed the blinds the light that gets through the pleats of the blinds would drive you crazy.

Bottom line is a glossy screen with a window behind the seating area can't be tolerated.

Unless you black out the room.

Simply untrue. I have two small windows on a 10' wall directly behind my sitting area. Now it very seldom, if at all gets direct sunlight through them but light does emerge from there and my TV is very watchable. :D

Bottom line is a glossy screen with a window behind the seating area can't be tolerated.

Unless you black out the room.

true,even if the light source is to the rear left ,rear right.

It never ceases to amaze me the great lengths lcd owners/proponents will go to in order to find an area that an lcd excels over a plasma.
If the room has to much ambient light for a plasma imagine how poor the lcd must look as well. Seriously people.

...and look what happens when you debunk one of LCD Fanboys favorite FUD arguements. The misinformation campaign gets ratcheted up 10 notches. Next we'll see some knucklehead put a WWII searchlight on a plasma display and complain of reflections.

Sounds like a room full of used car salesmen in this thread. Each trying to sell a point of view.

Reality is that anybody that puts a reflective screen in a room with lots of light sources is going to have problems. It doesn't matter what technology is used to generate the image.

That is why manufacturers offer options in their screen finishes.

Unless you are a complete moron, selecting a set that has the proper screen finish for the room is a no brainer.

Do the different screen finishes have some impact on pq? Of course, but much less than the reflections would cause.

Making this issue into a battle of technologies misses the entire point.

Sounds like a room full of used car salesmen in this thread. Each trying to sell a point of view.

Reality is that anybody that puts a reflective screen in a room with lots of light sources is going to have problems. It doesn't matter what technology is used to generate the image.

That is why manufacturers offer options in their screen finishes.

Unless you are a complete moron, selecting a set that has the proper screen finish for the room is a no brainer.

Do the different screen finishes have some impact on pq? Of course, but much less than the reflections would cause.

Making this issue into a battle of technologies misses the entire point.
Nice to see a voice of reason.:)

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Well in the case of sharpbandaid's picture it sure is.

You can't have a window behind your seating area with any kind glossy screen.

true,even if the light source is to the rear left ,rear right.I would still say that light directly from behind is the worst on a gloss screen. With a matte screen light from the sides can be more trouble than with a gloss screen.

Have to choose the set for your environment.

Sounds like a room full of used car salesmen in this thread. Each trying to sell a point of view.

Reality is that anybody that puts a reflective screen in a room with lots of light sources is going to have problems. It doesn't matter what technology is used to generate the image.

That is why manufacturers offer options in their screen finishes.

Unless you are a complete moron, selecting a set that has the proper screen finish for the room is a no brainer.

Do the different screen finishes have some impact on pq? Of course, but much less than the reflections would cause.

Making this issue into a battle of technologies misses the entire point.

I agree, and NO I do not want to buy what you are selling, no matter what car you're hawking this week. It really baffles me to see someone that disregards ALL professional reviews & opinions. Tell me, why should anyone believe you when compared to all the other extremely well-qualified reports and studies?? Do you have some sort of super Doctorate of BS From Mars? Please let everyone here know why we should "believe" your opinions that are stated as fact????

I agree, and NO I do not want to buy what you are selling, no matter what car you're hawking this week. It really baffles me to see someone that disregards ALL professional reviews & opinions. Tell me, why should anyone believe you when compared to all the other extremely well-qualified reports and studies?? Do you have some sort of super Doctorate of BS From Mars? Please let everyone here know why we should "believe" your opinions that are stated as fact????I've found pro reviews to be a good starting place in selecting items. In the end, however, I end up using an item - not the reviewer - and it needs to meet my needs.

Simple as that.

If a part of an individual's satisfaction in owning a product is knowing that reviewers and experts think it is the best in class, then this is an important factor in purchasing. Heck, BMW sold tons of cars due to image during the 80's and 90's, while most buyers had no real idea what the cars were designed to do.

I don't need anything special to have an opinion. When I buy a product I am using my $, so my opinion is really the only one that matters.

I think a side by side photo of a LCD and a plasma would of been more objective. At the end of the day its up to what your eyes preffer. Some people on here make plasmas sound like they are lit by candles and can only be viewed in total darkness, that is not true. Any display in a room full of windows is going to have some issues, some worse than others but you have to agree that room is not the ideal room for viewing. Maybe you should just put the tv outside and take some pics. In my case, I have 8' picture windows of which only one has blinds and while daytime viewing is not optimum , it is total exceptable and this room has a plasma. I also have a 52" Sony LCD, a 50 Phillips plasma, and two Dynex 32" LCD in the kids rooms. Both types have strengths and weaknesses and at the end of the day this on going debate over nit picking issues is a waste of time and just fanboyizm. Let your eyes and your wallet make your decisions. And if your not sure what to do buy, buy from a B&M store so your not hung out to dry if your not happy.
Jeff

Greetings

Funny thing is ... for the past 50 years ... people have been watching a piece of glass in their home too. How come that wasn't an issue?

:)

regards

What other choice did they have?

What other choice did they have?Radical idea, but maybe read a book?

I think a side by side photo of a LCD and a plasma would of been more objective. Or just using some common sense.

Always have to laff at desperate LCD'ers who now are placing plasma's in obscenely rigged rooms to attempt to portray them as "unwatchable" in normal, day-lit conditions.

Funny, I have a 6020 in a southwest-exposed room with NO window treatments. Not once have I heard a single complaint or concern with the image quality from anyone over for a ballgame. Not once.

This, AND I get superior blacks, better off-axis viewing, better motion, and better color saturation.

ahhh, the tortures!

I own TWO lcd's too, by the way!

James

Always have to laff at desperate LCD'ers who now are placing plasma's in obscenely rigged rooms to attempt to portray them as "unwatchable" in normal, day-lit conditions.

Funny, I have a 6020 in a southwest-exposed room with NO window treatments. Not once have I heard a single complaint or concern with the image quality from anyone over for a ballgame. Not once.

This, AND I get superior blacks, better off-axis viewing, better motion, and better color saturation.

ahhh, the tortures!

I own TWO lcd's too, by the way!

JamesYou don't honestly think that people would actually buy a set they hate and set it up in an improper environment just to make a point here, do you?

Nobody is enough of a fanboy to go to that length, but it is scary that people are paranoid enough about this stuff to think that they would.

You don't honestly think that people would actually buy a set they hate and set it up in an improper environment just to make a point here, do you?

Nobody is enough of a fanboy to go to that length, but it is scary that people are paranoid enough about this stuff to think that they would.

Ummm, well no. But I DO think people have the sometimes unfotunate tendency of dramatically over-stating reality. Just as I used to probably overstate how "bad" my XBR4 was with motion. In reality, the kuro is definitely superior, but MOST of the time the difference is not dramatic.

Again, I'd LOVE to see an LCD (or any display for that matter) in an IDENTICAL setting. I can guarantee you all would appear poor.

You can have your empty paranoia, BTW, I know how my plasma performs in a BRIGHT room and that's all I really care about.

James

I own TWO lcd's too, by the way!

Why?

Why?

Happened to pick up a pair of smaller TV's for the much less critical viewing areas of a guest room and bedroom.

They're fine for what they are and serve the purpose well.

James

Why?Probably because they don't make Plasmas smaller than 42 inches :D

Just to set the historical record straight, CRT and RPTV displays were plagued with reflections too. However there were mitigating effects:

CRTs:

The MOST reflections ever would be found in the oldest type of CRT display, which bulged outward in both the horizontal and vertical planes, and was called a "shadow mask" CRT. The convex shape of the front glass was notorius for sucking in and reflecting light sources from a large area in front of the screen. However this convex shape also caused these reflections to be smaller than they would have been in a flat reflective surface. People tended to watch CRT displays in subdued lighting and tolerate the small reflections.

Later CRT designs were both better and worse for reflections. Early Sony Trinitron displays had cylindrical front glass, they displayed the "reflection sucking" phenomenon only in one direction, and resulting reflections were elongated vertically. After Sony's patent on this "aperture grille" technology expired, the technology had advanced to the point where totally flat glass was used, and reflections were full-sized in both H and V planes. The best Trinitrons (and worst reflectors) were the Sony "VVega" series of analog displays with digital circuitry inside which allowed the extended and effective tweeking of the image to compensate for the geometric problems caused by the flat glass and shallow depth (for a CRT). I still have an analog Sony VVega in a back bedroom, and it is still a great small TV, although when it was in my well-lighted family room (before it was remodelled into a "great room" with windows all around) it truly sucked for reflections, I kept it in a wooden cabinet and used the two side doors to screen off reflected light. After tearing out more walls and exposing more windows in my remodel of two years ago, the VVega would be totally unusable in the present floorplan.

RPTVs:

RPTVs have always had flat reflective surfaces, usually a "screen protector" over a Fresnel Lens used to concentrate the screen light and increase brightness (by compromising viewing angles). Matte finish and semi-gloss plastic finishes were developed to tame the resulting reflections. Since similar plastic films are used as the top surface of LCD flat panels, the same anti-reflective screen finishes were immediately available to tame LCD reflections. This gave (and continues to give) LCD flat panels an early advantage in brightly lit rooms.

Note that (for my taste) the very best RPTVs were the Pioneer "Elite" series of analog CRT RPTVs. Pioneer actually offered models with either Fresnel lenses (for normal/bright rooms) or plastic diffusing front panels for Home Theater applications where the diffusing screen was dimmer but offered a wider field of view for more seats and higher reflectivity (which did not matter in a dakened room). There were also aftermarket venders of diffusing screens (both plastic and tensioned fabrics on frames) for Pioneer and other high-end RPTVs, we retro-fitted many such for large RPTVs in the early analog HDTV days.

Note that if you are replacing an RPTV with a flat panel, the room seating is already setup for on-axis viewing for the RPTV - so either LCD or Plasma can be used. That is one reason so many LCD users never suffer from off-axis image viewing problems.

These RPTV plastic and fabric screens live on in the form of "rear-projection screens" for seperate projector/screen setups. The ultimate fake-out is to take an adjacent room, mount the projector in a ceiling mount, and focus it on a rear-projection screen which has been stretched over a wall opening and surrounded in the viewing room with a shiny frame and some fake buttons and a pilot LED. Tell a tall tale about your "150-inch plasma" and most people would believe you. Never mind that you could heat most homes with the heat thrown off of a real 150" plasma if it existed. (Yes, some people have done this - the adjacent room can still be used for storage as long as the stuff is not in the projector light cone.)

Plasma screens depend upon chemically etched glass and applied coatings that are relatively ineffective at taming reflections. YES you COULD sand blast a glass surface to make real etched glass, but forget being able to clean the surface, a single greasy/dirty fingerprint would render the set useless.

There is also a continuum of surface treatments from glossy all the way to full matte. The shiniest surfaces offer the clearest images but only in fully darkened rooms. The roughest matte finish diffuses both the reflected images AND the light from the display itself - so matte finish HDTVs tend to have lower contrast numbers and lower black levels in well-lighted rooms. For example if you have two (otherwise identical) flat panels next to each other, one glossy and one matte, the glossy finish is best in the dark and the matte in full lighting. But if you look at the sets while they are turned off, the shiny set looks Black overlaid with reflections, while the matte finish screen looks Dark Gray from reflected and diffused room lighting. But in most rooms and in most ambient lighting, somewhere in the middle ground (anti-reflective glass coating or light semi-gloss plastic finish) is the proper selection.

panasonic plasmas do not seem to hold up well with excess light. samsungs seem to do better, and pioneer seem to do quite well.

But how much light are we talking about?

The amount of light some people seem to be talking about would annoy me a lot more than a washed out picture. Brighter than a windowless room with a small lamp, but not crazy would be the conditions that would matter most to me in this conversation.

You have got it exactly right, you used "me" twice. How well lighted you like your living spaces is a lifestyle choice. Some of us own swimming pools and convertable-top cars and have homes with lots of glass without light-controlling window treatments - at least in the public spaces.

I keep my bedrooms and my home theater room dark, and otherwise let the sun shine in. I tore walls down and turned the public side of the house into an open floorplan "great room" with two huge glass doors and four windows. One glass sliding door looks into the center atrium which is open to sun and air. The other overlooks the swimming pool in the back yard. The wall behind the couch is solid, so I have lots of light but a matte-finish screen still handles it just fine.

By the way, the curtains for this room cost more than twice what the $2000 HDTV cost, and would have cost more if we had specified room-darkening treatments (which we did not want).