Wrong.

When you see highlights from FOX on NBC, you are seeing the HD video from a different path than what local stations / viewers see.

The beauty is that I see it both ways and I get the same quality...same stability...same non-stuttering PQ regardless of the video path used...And I'm not alone...;)

If the issues affected the vast majority of OTA viewers and satellite viewers along with cable viewers then I could easily see FOX needing to do something to rectify it...But based on the percentage of cable complaints VS. OTA/satellite complaints I think it is clear that the issue lies with the cable co's...

I guess my question would be "Is Fox broadcasting / transmitting within the specifications of the "standard for HD broadcasts?" (Whatever that standard is)

If yes, then you can't blame Fox
If no, then you can squarely lay the blame on them

We are going to have to agree to disagree here Ken...While I do not doubt that it was a change made by FOX that was the beginning of these issues I don't think FOX should be blamed or held responsible for the cable co's lack of obvious neccessary refinements or the manufactuers that build cheap tuners...

If the issues affected the vast majority of OTA viewers and satellite viewers along with cable viewers then I could easily see FOX needing to do something to rectify it...But based on the percentage of cable complaints VS. OTA/satellite complaints I think it is clear that the issue lies with the cable co's...You are completely, 100% wrong. And it will only be a matter of time before just how wrong you are is a matter of public knowledge.

So I got access to a viewing situation with a number of sources including a Vizio internal tuner (but unfortunately no SA box). Dish PVR was good from both OTA and LiL. Zenith CECB STB was good (for what it's worth the "set by program" aspect ratio conversion from AFD was set to center cut). Computer USB tuner was good. However a Vizio tuner from OTA had alot of stutter. This confirms that it isn't just a cable issue.

If this is the same thing that SA box users are seeing, it looks like dropped or frozen frames. It should be interesting to see if other internal tuners have this problem, and if it exists on other 60P based programs on FOX.

It also occurred on the FOX sports studio material. An interesting thing was that on a still graphic the ticker looked like it was dropping every other frame consistently. When there was some motion, such as an interview package, the ticker was smooth sometimes, and even more choppy at other times. This seems to demonstrate that the stutter is related to the motion on the screen rather than just a constant frame dropping pattern such as 24P. The local live HD that followed the game had no stutter at all.

I'm making a stream capture to see if I can see anything.

As mentioned earlier, assigning blame is a tricky issue. One can have a compliant stream, but still have compatibility issues. MPEG is sort of guidelines rather than a set in stone method. Different manufactures can do the same thing with different methods of encoding. In fact, even on a given encoder one can make significant changes to stream parameters that are still compliant to the MPEG standard but can cause issues. Compatibility is not as easy as it appears. I've seen situations where streams between equipment made by the same manufacturer has less compatibility than mixing brands. I swear at times it seems like voodoo.

From earlier today:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17171573&postcount=169 Thanks Ken (and TVOD), I missed that post.

I would hope, regardless of how much of this problem sits on FOX’s plate, that they do everything possible to resolve it, because one way or another they will pay for it

So I got access to a viewing situation with a number of sources including a Vizio internal tuner (but unfortunately no SA box). Dish PVR was good from both OTA and LiL. Zenith CECB STB was good (for what it's worth the "set by program" aspect ratio conversion from AFD was set to center cut). Computer USB tuner was good. However a Vizio tuner from OTA had alot of stutter. This confirms that it isn't just a cable issue.



Thanks for confirming the Vizio issue...by chance do you know the model number of the TV. Mine is the 2 year old VP42 (can't even find support for it on their site anymore)

Encoder issues happen. I remember there were a lot of issues with WCIU-DT and a number of consumer QAM tuners that caused picture stutter. Eventually, the manufacturer fixed the issue and now it works fine. Fox and the Cable companies will take the brunt of the blame for this being as a common person may not be able to fully understand neither of them has anything to do with this issue.

Encoder issues happen. I remember there were a lot of issues with WCIU-DT and a number of consumer QAM tuners that caused picture stutter. Eventually, the manufacturer fixed the issue and now it works fine. Fox and the Cable companies will take the brunt of the blame for this being as a common person may not be able to fully understand neither of them has anything to do with this issue.

Although the problem may well stem from the encoder, due to the unique nature of the FOX HD distribution system, they will have to be the force behind the resolution.

From earlier today:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17171573&postcount=169

I have to question Fox seriously looking into the issue. It's been quite a while now since this started happening. Maybe with football season starting, there will be more public outcry and more pressure to fix the problem, but their Saturday baseball games have been unwatchable for 2 months on my end.

Encoder issues happen. I remember there were a lot of issues with WCIU-DT and a number of consumer QAM tuners that caused picture stutter. Eventually, the manufacturer fixed the issue and now it works fine. Fox and the Cable companies will take the brunt of the blame for this being as a common person may not be able to fully understand neither of them has anything to do with this issue.Sure “encoder issues” happen but "they’re" happening on FOX’s watch. The viewer who tunes to CBS or YES etc. doesn’t see it there but they do see it on FOX.

I also have a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HDC. I'm having his issue also, noticed it last year with the World Series games, now the Giants game today was whacked. Even with the 120mhz helping me out, it was shaky.

Do I just go back to TWC and get another box?



As I said earlier today, I have both the SA 4250HD and the 4200HD.The stutter does not happen with the 4200HD, but I doubt any cable provider still has these boxes. They were supposedly replaced with the 4250HD

I don't quite understand why it only happens on one camera? For their MLB coverage it is only a problem with their centerfield camera. On the NFL, it's only an issue with their high, sideline camera. My guess is that it has something to do with the new super slow-mo HD camera in use. B&C did a story on its benefits and issues back in August. Is it possible FOX is trying to over utilize this technology?

As I said earlier today, I have both the SA 4250HD and the 4200HD.The stutter does not happen with the 4200HD, but I doubt any cable provider still has these boxes. They were supposedly replaced with the 4250HD

Cablevision still uses them in addition to the 4250.

Mine happens with analog out...meaning what I see on my screen.

antenna --> TV tuner --> Screen = Network Stuttering on Fox :p

(Doesn't happen with my local station when they broadcast HD live)


I think you are the exception with the problem with your Vizio. My question was more for the issues with the STB's.

Cablevision still uses them in addition to the 4250.

Well thats a good alternative for those who want to eliminate the stutter. But I should add that my SA4200HD STB is 3 years old, so I don't know if the new ones have been updated with new hardware/circuitry, but its worth a shot. Also just an FYI, mine uses DVI, I don't know if the new ones have HDMI's.

I don't quite understand why it only happens on one camera? For their MLB coverage it is only a problem with their centerfield camera. On the NFL, it's only an issue with their high, sideline camera. My guess is that it has something to do with the new super slow-mo HD camera in use. B&C did a story on its benefits and issues back in August. Is it possible FOX is trying to over utilize this technology?

It was happening on Fox News Sunday this morning, too. It was happening during the pre-game (most noticeable on the ticker). You can see it easier on the wide shot as you have more motion (or at least more independent objects in motion). It was really noticeable when they showed the guys in the booth talking...Aikman's lips were way off from the audio and not smooth.

One thing just doing a quick look is that the DCT scan type is Alternate. Usually Alternate is used for interlaced while Zig-Zag is used for progressive. I don't know if that has anything to do with anything. Most of the previous caps I have from FOX show Zig-Zag, but I do have one other older one that is Alternate.

Well thats a good alternative for those who want to eliminate the stutter. But I should add that my SA4200HD STB is 3 years old, so I don't know if the new ones have been updated with new hardware/circuitry, but its worth a shot. Also just an FYI, mine uses DVI, I don't know if the new ones have HDMI's.


Since the 4250s have both HDMI and component, I'm guessing that they'll eventually replace the 4200s.

I don't quite understand why it only happens on one camera? For their MLB coverage it is only a problem with their centerfield camera. On the NFL, it's only an issue with their high, sideline camera. My guess is that it has something to do with the new super slow-mo HD camera in use. B&C did a story on its benefits and issues back in August. Is it possible FOX is trying to over utilize this technology?
The centerfield and "up" cameras in football are not super-slow-mo units. If that is the case it would be seen at the remote site and on the backhaul, which as shown by highlights on other networks is not the case.

I think everyone here would agree that right about now anything is possible concerning this issue...;)

I would not. This is clearly something in the distribution system causing a problem with the signal on certain tuner/decoders.

Are those of you seeing this problem letting the cable box do the conversion to 1080i? If you are, try switching it to 720p and let the display do the conversion and let us know if that stopped the stuttering.

Are those of you seeing this problem letting the cable box do the conversion to 1080i? If you are, try switching it to 720p and let the display do the conversion and let us know if that stopped the stuttering.

My STB is set to auto, I see it display 720p and I let my display do the final conversion to its native resolution of 1080p.

It still stutters.

Are those of you seeing this problem letting the cable box do the conversion to 1080i? If you are, try switching it to 720p and let the display do the conversion and let us know if that stopped the stuttering.

Nope. Mine has been set to 720p and I still notice it. Man I can remember when I said to myself back I think in late July, "What did Fox change?" I was watching a baseball game and the picture was horrid for an HD broadcast. I hope they solve this problem soon. Are they even aware of it? It's pretty pathetic and embarrassing on their part.

I don’t understand. AVS is an influential, renowned science forum with many heavy hitting professionals as members. Where’s their analysis? Aren’t there any insiders with some juice to get this resolved, or at least give us some concrete answers? I can’t believe this thread has been kicking around all this time and we’re still at square one with our stuttering heads in a FOX hole.
I worked with Motorola on the SE-3000 encoder. Has anyone captured a bitstream when this problem was apparent?

Ron

I have seen this problem on the Vizio sets. It would begin to stutter whenever you went from a 1080i channel to 720p. To clear it you had to switch to a 480i channel and back to 720p without going through 1080i. Clearly a bug with the Vizio.

I have seen this problem on the Vizio sets. It would begin to stutter whenever you went from a 1080i channel to 720p. To clear it you had to switch to a 480i channel and back to 720p without going through 1080i. Clearly a bug with the Vizio.

Thanks, I'll give that a try next time. Clearly switching between games was 1080i to 720p and the channels directly above and below my Fox channel are both 1080i.

Are those of you seeing this problem letting the cable box do the conversion to 1080i? If you are, try switching it to 720p and let the display do the conversion and let us know if that stopped the stuttering.

I have both of my SA 8300 set to Auto DVI/HDMI, so it passes either 720p or 1080i depending on the channel.

It seems many of you are using the 'auto' feature...I would think it would be worth a try to 'lock' the output to either 720p OR 1080i and see if the issue persists...If the issue persists in one mode then try the other...

And as an aside I will set my OTA tuner to 'auto' and see if I get the problem of stuttering...Right now I have it locked to 1080i so the tuner converts any 720p to 1080i itself...When it is set to 'auto' my TV will take whatever signal it is being fed (720p or 1080i) and convert it to 1080i...

Past this I am very limited as to any testing I can do...It would be a real PITA but I guess if needed I could connect the cable up to my tuner and check the QAM channel and see if anything happens...But I will only go thru the trouble IF it is deemed neccessary...

It seems many of you are using the 'auto' feature...I would think it would be worth a try to 'lock' the output to either 720p OR 1080i and see if the issue persists...If the issue persists in one mode then try the other...

And as an aside I will set my OTA tuner to 'auto' and see if I get the problem of stuttering...Right now I have it locked to 1080i so the tuner converts any 720p to 1080i itself...When it is set to 'auto' my TV will take whatever signal it is being fed (720p or 1080i) and convert it to 1080i...

Past this I am very limited as to any testing I can do...It would be a real PITA but I guess if needed I could connect the cable up to my tuner and check the QAM channel and see if anything happens...But I will only go thru the trouble IF it is deemed neccessary...

Tried all settings for resolutions, doesn't change the situation at all.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but how could this possibly be a user issue? We can't ignore the key fact that it only happens on one of their cameras. The rest look just fine, therefore the issue resides with FOX. They're processing that particular signal in a way they weren't before. Maybe they have a reason to capture that one angle in 24p?

The rest look just fine, therefore the issue resides with FOX. They're processing that particular signal in a way they weren't before. Maybe they have a reason to capture that one angle in 24p?

No, the problem is in the distribution chain, not with production.

Definitely see the same thing in Austin TWC, 8300HD set top. Contacted TW but doubt will produce any meaningful response. Seems the issues is quite complex and I'm not optimistic about this getting resolved any time soon.

My reply from the local Fox affiliate in Rochester, NY:

"If it is your HD cable service it is the responsibility of Time Warner Cable. We
feed them a fibre optic signal and have no influence what they do with it. "

Though it's poor grammar, it appears he's passing the buck onto the cable company. I wrote him back and said this was unacceptable.

Just heard from the Chief Engineer of my local Fox affiliate:

The “stuttering” problem that you are experiencing is occurring in Scientific-Atlanta HD set top boxes in use by many cable systems. There is something in the Fox live sports data stream that these boxes can’t handle, as the over the air broadcasts and cable ready TV sets do not experience these issues.

The issue is being worked by Fox and cable engineering people and we hope a solution will be available soon.

Just heard from the Chief Engineer of my local Fox affiliate:That's pretty close, but as already noted at least some Vizio sets with internal QAM tuners have the same issue, so there is some lag between what we know and what FOX is telling local stations.

Bottom line: It's great they are working on a solution.

That's pretty close, but as already noted at least some Vizio sets with internal QAM tuners have the same issue, so there is some lag between what we know and what FOX is telling local stations.

Bottom line: It's great they are working on a solution.

My guess is the same tuner used in SA boxes is what Vizio is using, but I could be completely wrong.

I worry that they've been working on this for a while, considering it's been happening with baseball games for almost 2 months.

That's pretty close, but as already noted at least some Vizio sets with internal QAM tuners have the same issue, so there is some lag between what we know and what FOX is telling local stations.

Bottom line: It's great they are working on a solution.

I don't know about my Vizio's QAM tuner, but I do know it has the issue with the ATSC tuner. I emailed Vizio and they told me to do this (haven't tried it yet as there have been no live sporting events yet):

1- Power off TV
2- Unplug TV from outlet
3- Press and hold in the power button on the TV for 30 seconds (while it is unplugged from the wall)
4- Release the power button
5- Plug in the TV into a different outlet
6- Power the TV back on

Add me as one of the people seeing this. Actually started noticing it back at the beginning of summer but this now makes football pretty much unwatchable.

KSWB Fox5 San Diego through Cox Cable, using a SA 8300HD

Add me as one of the people seeing this. Actually started noticing it back at the beginning of summer but this now makes football pretty much unwatchable.

KSWB Fox5 San Diego through Cox Cable, using a SA 8300HD

Me too in San Diego, (only with FOX Sports). Have the problem on one SA8300HD and two SA4240HDC boxes.

I never turn my SA8300HD STB off. This morning I found that it was off and when I turned it on it was on channel 02 standard def instead of being on the last channel I was watching which is what I have it set to do. I think this means that the box was reset somehow. Is it possible that Cablevision, my provider, sent a firmware update to correct this problem? Anyone know how to check the firmware level and when it was installed?

I never turn my SA8300HD STB off. This morning I found that it was off and when I turned it on it was on channel 02 standard def instead of being on the last channel I was watching which is what I have it set to do. I think this means that the box was reset somehow. Is it possible that Cablevision, my provider, sent a firmware update to correct this problem? Anyone know how to check the firmware level and when it was installed?

They most likely sent a software update, but I wouldn't count on it being one to solve this problem. Time Warner pushes them out all the time.

Is it possible that Cablevision, my provider, sent a firmware update to correct this problem? Anyone know how to check the firmware level and when it was installed?

Cablevision did send a software update for the DVR last night but it was to solve a recording issue caused by the last software update. It wasn't for the FOX issue.

OK. Thanks for the info. This is the first time in the year that I have had Cablevision that I can remember the box being reset. Where did you find out that there was an update for the DVR?

I never turn my SA8300HD STB off. This morning I found that it was off and when I turned it on it was on channel 02 standard def instead of being on the last channel I was watching which is what I have it set to do. I think this means that the box was reset somehow. Is it possible that Cablevision, my provider, sent a firmware update to correct this problem? Anyone know how to check the firmware level and when it was installed?

Probably not related. Theres been box updates going on in Cablevision territory due to remote DVR scheduling. Its also possible the box just glitched and reset(happens to me sometimes)

OK. Thanks for the info. This is the first time in the year that I have had Cablevision that I can remember the box being reset. Where did you find out that there was an update for the DVR?

Wilt told us http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/cablevision_digital/message/67759

Me too in San Diego, (only with FOX Sports). Have the problem on one SA8300HD and two SA4240HDC boxes.

Hi, I'm in San Diego too and have this problem. I contacted an engineer at KSWB and he was not aware of it and I sense that he thinks it's something wrong with me and/or my specific setup. Please write John Weigand at JWeigand@tribune.com and let him know you're having problems too.

Hi, I'm in San Diego too and have this problem. I contacted an engineer at KSWB and he was not aware of it and I sense that he thinks it's something wrong with me and/or my specific setup. Please write John Weigand at JWeigand@tribune.com and let him know you're having problems too.
Direct him to this topic.

Direct him to this topic.


When I contacted SD TWC I included this topic - same for when I reported the issue to the main FOX feedback site.

Direct him to this topic.

I directed him and a rep from Time Warner Cable to this thread as well as to another forum discussing this same issue.

Can you supply a link to the other forum that is discussing this problem please?

Can you supply a link to the other forum that is discussing this problem please?


http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/3/7648.html?1253138665

I emailed Cox San Diego about this problem and directed him to this thread and this is his reply.

Hello Gary,

Thank you for your email. There are currently no reported issues with Fox Sports. I'm sorry to hear that there is a problem with our cable service. This is usually caused by a weak signal to the cable box or a poor connection.

What we need you to do to try and resolve this issue, is to unscrew and then re-screw back on the connectors on the cable line where they attach to the cable box.

Unplug the cable box from the electrical supply, and turn off the TV.

One at a time, starting with the cable coming out of the wall, unscrew and re-screw on the connectors. Ensure that the cable is free of any hardware, and has no kinks or worn places on the cable itself. After you have done this, please plug back in the cable box and turn on the TV.

On the cable box display, you should see a small line chasing itself around in a circle for one or two seconds, and then the area where the time/channel normally is will go blank for 3-5 minutes. Once the time/channel comes back on, please turn the Cox receiver back on and check the reception.

If you are still having problems after doing this, we may need to send a technician out to your residence. Please reply to this email or call our 24 hour technical support line at (800) 234-3993.


We hope that we have been able to provide you with the information you requested. If we have not, or if we can be of any additional service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us again.


Sincerely,

Kenneth
Cox Communications - Video/Telephony Tech Support
Online Support Team

EDIT: BTW here's the email I sent in:

I have the SA 4240 HDC STB and am noticing a stuttering effect on the football game (Vikings/Browns) on Fox5HD (705). I've also noticed this effect on Fox's Saturday baseball games. I have bypass the STB and used my QAM tuner in my HDTV and I have no problem with the stuttering. There is a whole thread on this forum you can look at. It seems the common problem is the SA STB's.
Stutter or 24p effect http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1163878

Funny. You can bet he didn't read the link that you gave him unless he thinks that people all over the country on multiple cable providers all have loose connections!
Oh, and that the loose connection only affects live Fox sporting events in HD!

I guess we'll know as early as tomorrow if it was fixed or not. If the problems persist on FOX MLB Saturday, you can bet it will be the same on Sunday.

I guess we'll know as early as tomorrow if it was fixed or not.?

You'll know tomorrow if it's fixed for tomorrow, but that doesn't mean it might not be fixed next week or the week after.

?

You'll know tomorrow if it's fixed for tomorrow, but that doesn't mean it might not be fixed next week or the week after.

I wish I had a QAM tuner in my HDTV (Samsung HL-S5087W DLP) :(

I wish I had a QAM tuner in my HDTV (Samsung HL-S5087W DLP) :(

Have you tried an antenna?

I emailed Cox San Diego about this problem and directed him to this thread and this is his reply...




Hi Gary,

This person from Cox, Kenneth, that wrote you back, well, he is either completely uneducated, (that was the kind way to say it) in respects to his company’s product, (“There are currently no reported issues with Fox Sports”) and therefore has no business working in customer support/customer tech support or - he is an outright liar.

Sorry, but it has to be one or the other. I would dare to say that there is a 98.5 percent chance that he is outright lying to you/us in his response. I hate Cox when they address issues in this manner. That person absolutely knows about this issue, and has known it for some time now. For him to answer you in that manner, well, that is an outrage and a slap in the face to their customers. That made me sick to read that. Cox treats us like were all idiots.

Then on top of that, (outright lying) he gives to a completely useless bunch of instructions to troubleshoot the issue. That is a complete runaround he gave you – no telling how many poor fools followed that advice. What a joke.

The sad part is that this issue is not really a Cox issue per say, it has more to do with some change FOX Live Sports initiated. He could have just said that, (been truthful) and saved face at the same time. Instead, he outright lied and gave you the company runaround.

Sorry for the rant but reading that kind of ticked me off.

No reports that I have seen have reported this in OTA...I have FOX on 2 different channels from 2 different cities OTA and there is no issue at all...This puts the ball in the cable companies court...FOX is not the problem...They upgraded their equipment to fix/resolve/eliminate/prevent problems...They have done their part...Now it is up to the cable companies to step up to the plate...

Problem from last week was Fox and not the local cable company, I watched the game through CATV and OTA, the problem was there on both..?

So what do you got to say about that..? My 4-tv's are all bad..?

Problem from last week was Fox and not the local cable company, I watched the game through CATV and OTA, the problem was there on both..?

So what do you got to say about that..? My 4-tv's are all bad..?

This has already been dealt with. It's been confirmed the issue is with FOX.

This has already been dealt with. It's been confirmed the issue is with FOX.

Do you have inside information, or are you basing that opinion on the reports in this thread?

Do you have inside information, or are you basing that opinion on the reports in this thread?

I talked to my local Fox Engineer right after the game and confirmed it was on Fox Network side.

I talked to my local Fox Engineer right after the game and confirmed it was on Fox Network side.

That's interesting, because I am an engineer at a FOX affiliate and we have received no complaints regarding this issue and have been told nothing of the sort by FOX engineering.

Did the engineer specifically state it was a FOX problem or did he say that FOX was working toward a resolution, because those are two very different things. FOX always works with providers to resolve problems regardless of the source of the problem.

There was a similar issue with D* when they first went to Mpeg-4 locals. The equipment on their end did not place nice with 720p. FOX and their affiliates, ABC and their affiliates, D* and the manufacturers all worked together to solve the problem.

Im watching the Tigers/Twins game on Fox and see no lag that I've been experiencing before. They fixed it. WOOHOO!!

Watching the Twins/Tigers game on Fox right now and I am not seeing the stuttering issue anymore and I've changed nothing. Like I said in an earlier post I have a SA 8300hdc cable box from Charter. Anyone else who had the issue check out the game and see if it still remains.

With that said I'm still gonna wait until I some NFL games tomorrow before I say its completely fixed for me.

Edit---------------------------------------------
No stuttering from the center field camera on our 4250HDC box either. Although I want to believe the problem is fixed, hearing others say they still have it is making me feel as if this wont last long haha.

I'm still seeing the stuttering (KTBC - Fox7 (Austin) and KWKT - Fox44 (Waco) using my Vizio's TV (VP42) built in tuner.

I tried the 480i to Fox channel change without any success and also tried the hard reset that Vizio suggested without any success.

It's most assuredly not fixed here. The center-field cam in Cubs/Cardinals stutters badly. (SA8300HD/Comcast/Northern VA)

I'm watching the Dodgers/Giants game and still seeing the stuttering from the centerfield camera as the pitcher pitchers to the batter.

Cox (San Diego)
KSWB (705)
SA 4240HDC

Problem persists in San Diego Fox 5 using TWC to watch Dodgers-Giants. As others have reported, stuttering appears to occur only from the CF camera angle.

Well at least the Giants/Cowboys game is on NBC tomorrow night so we don't have to put up with the stutter.

I have a SA 8300 HD DVR box from Time Warner Cable in the Raleigh area and am noticing the stutter effect on live Fox sports as well. First noticed it this summer on the center field cam from the baseball games. Now it appears to be on all cameras except for extreme closeups of players. I have not noticed it prior to this year in NFL broadcasts, but the preseason games showed this stutter effect as well. I have not seen this effect on any other channel whether the source is 720p or 1080i. It basically makes the broadcast unwatchable. Might have to break out the OTA antenna.

I am currently watching the cubs cardnials game on fox. Kept seeing the stutter so I broke out the OTA antenna and hooked it straight to my xbr9. Stutter effect gone.

Well the problem is not here any more.

Time Warner Cable of NYC.

Look, it is unacceptable for any single broadcast company to unilaterally decide to transmit, adopt format, whatever the cause is, that doesn't work with widely-distributed hardware and software.

Suppose Channel "X" now decides to take another approach, and it is incompatible with both Fox and TWC hw/sw. Does the consumer now have no choice to receive standard/common content, or to choose between the two?

The world simply can't revolve around a single broadcast company's choice. Whatever the cause, from source to consumer, it is with FOX as broadcaster since all other broadcasts don't have the problem.

Well the problem is not here any more.

Time Warner Cable of NYC.

I still have it here, Cablevision LI.

Look, it is unacceptable for any single broadcast company to unilaterally decide to transmit, adopt format, whatever the cause is, that doesn't work with widely-distributed hardware and software.

Suppose Channel "X" now decides to take another approach, and it is incompatible with both Fox and TWC hw/sw. Does the consumer now have no choice to receive standard/common content, or to choose between the two?

The world simply can't revolve around a single broadcast company's choice. Whatever the cause, from source to consumer, it is with FOX as broadcaster since all other broadcasts don't have the problem.

And the only provider that has the problem is Time Warner Cable.

And the only provider that has the problem is Time Warner Cable.

Actually it's happening on multiple cable providers.

The stuttering still happened today on the baseball game (Fox 10, KSAZ) and I'm on Cox Cable using an SA8300HD in Gilbert, AZ.

Actually it's happening on multiple cable providers.

The stuttering still happened today on the baseball game (Fox 10, KSAZ) and I'm on Cox Cable using an SA8300HD in Gilbert, AZ.

OK, but it seems to be confined to the SA cable boxes.

OK, but it seems to be confined to the SA cable boxes.

No, it's also been seen on a number of Vizio HDTV's using QAM.

No, it's also been seen on a number of Vizio HDTV's using QAM.

But, people with SA cable boxes have reported that the problem goes away when they switch to OTA.

No, it's also been seen on a number of Vizio HDTV's using QAM.
...don't forget Vizio TV's and OTA (ATSC) tuners.

Have you tried an antenna?

I would need a pretty high mast on my roof to get signal, and that's not worth the hassle, money, or having to look at a bit antenna. I have a metal roof, so putting one in the attic won't work either.

It's most assuredly not fixed here. The center-field cam in Cubs/Cardinals stutters badly. (SA8300HD/Comcast/Northern VA)

Same here today on that game. Upstate NY, SA8300HD, Time Warner.

I would think that if someone who had this problem before no longer has the problem that either the cable provider sent a firmware update to their STB or the local Fox affiliate for that cable system made some sort of update.

But, people with SA cable boxes have reported that the problem goes away when they switch to OTA.

Not the ones with Vizio HDTV's.

...don't forget Vizio TV's and OTA (ATSC) tuners.


I think the Vizio problem is a separate issue. I have seen this for at least a year or more and it is a problem with all 720p.

Semi-educated guess is that the problem is due to Fox's use of 3 consecutive B frames. The old encoder's GOP structure was a fairly standard BBIBBPBBPBBPBBP, but the new encoder is putting out BBBIBBBPBBBPBBP. Most encoders default to the former or something similar with 2 max consecutive B frames. As far as I know, 3 consecutive isn't disallowed by ATSC, but it's not commonly used in any MPEG2 application. Improperly designed decoders may not handle this correctly, resulting in the stuttering seen on SA boxes and Vizio TVs. Simple workaround is for Fox to change the GOP structure in their encoders to match the one used under the old encoder.

This afternoon I split my cable feed, one line into the SA 8300HD and one directly into my Pioneer 4280. The stuttering was absent when watching with the TV's tuner. I suppose this is how I will watch Fox Sports until the issue gets resolved.

Semi-educated guess is that the problem is due to Fox's use of 3 consecutive B frames. The old encoder's GOP structure was a fairly standard BBIBBPBBPBBPBBP, but the new encoder is putting out BBBIBBBPBBBPBBP. Most encoders default to the former or something similar with 2 max consecutive B frames. As far as I know, 3 consecutive isn't disallowed by ATSC, but it's not commonly used in any MPEG2 application. Improperly designed decoders may not handle this correctly, resulting in the stuttering seen on SA boxes and Vizio TVs. Simple workaround is for Fox to change the GOP structure in their encoders to match the one used under the old encoder.
The SE-3000 is also using dynamic GOP. The number of B-frames can switch between 0, 1, 2 or even 3 between P-Frames.

Ron

I think the Vizio problem is a separate issue. I have seen this for at least a year or more and it is a problem with all 720p.

Really? The ABC Football game last night was fine on 720p on my Vizio. Also, Fox broadcast was fine last year (and the year before) during the football season.

Really? The ABC Football game last night was fine on 720p on my Vizio. Also, Fox broadcast was fine last year (and the year before) during the football season.

OK, your experience with the Vizio is different than mine. Even if it is the same issue, the fact is we have identified two devices that exhibit the problem while every other device out there does not. It would seem that the cause is more likely to be something common to those devices than something in the source.

I am also interested in the reports that people in some areas are saying they no longer have the problem. Does this mean there was something different in the network feed of that particular game, or did a bug fix get rolled out to the cable boxes in that area?

Issue still happening now during Fox PreGame show. Sports ticker is rediculous.
Comcast - Ft. Myers, FL - SA8300

It would seem that the cause is more likely to be something common to those devices than something in the source.



If it is something in the device and not the source, then why did it just start happening? I think it is a combination of the hardware and a change in the source.

Merrimack, NH - Comcast - SA8300HD -> HDMI ->720p

I've noticed in on center field cameras in baseball games and is happening right now on the Fox Pregame show. Last week the Fox game (Vikings/Browns) was unwatchable.

I have to resort to watching the SD version... lame.

Is there any other fix? When is comcast coming out with an upgrade to this ancient HD DVR already? ugh.

Merrimack, NH - Comcast - SA8300HD -> HDMI ->720p

I've noticed in on center field cameras in baseball games and is happening right now on the Fox Pregame show. Last week the Fox game (Vikings/Browns) was unwatchable.

I have to resort to watching the SD version... lame.

Is there any other fix? When is comcast coming out with an upgrade to this ancient HD DVR already? ugh.

Use an antenna or a QAM tuner (built into TV or separate box)

More of the same, FOX is just trying to pass the buck to someone else. None of us with SA boxes or Vixio TVs had this problem EVER before FOX made a change. Now FOX changes something the nation with SA boxes & Vizio TVs has god-awful stuttering but it is not FOXs fault?

More of the same, FOX is just trying to pass the buck to someone else. None of us with SA boxes or Vixio TVs had this problem EVER before FOX made a change. Now FOX changes something the nation with SA boxes & Vizio TVs has god-awful stuttering but it is not FOXs fault?

I watching this game on a 8300hdc converter via TWC in Charlotte and am not seeing any problems today..?

Still stuttering in DC....

More of the same, FOX is just trying to pass the buck to someone else. None of us with SA boxes or Vixio TVs had this problem EVER before FOX made a change. Now FOX changes something the nation with SA boxes & Vizio TVs has god-awful stuttering but it is not FOXs fault?

We are definitely dealing with an issue of incompatibility between FOX and these particular decoders. Either the stream from FOX is non-compliant or the decoders are non-compliant, but you can't automatically say which it is.

Again, the problem seems to be going away on a per provider basis. You do the math.

We are definitely dealing with an issue of incompatibility between FOX and these particular decoders. Either the stream from FOX is non-compliant or the decoders are non-compliant, but you can't automatically say which it is.

Again, the problem seems to be going away on a per provider basis. You do the math.

It may be the way your cable company gets your local station, via ota 8-vsb or fiber with a Tandberg receiver. From there it could be the mux settings and or grooming going out on clear QAM, also if they are using an Arris for clear QAM could be an issue for certain TV's and or set-tops do to the settings there.

Unless some CATV companies compare notes or post on the SCTE about these issue's it will just keep going.

Still have it here in Manassas Va. Just turned off the Redskins game again, it is so bad it gives you a headache after a few minutes. Yes I have changed everything from running it right from the DVR to the TV and I have it on the other TV which is just a HD receiver.

I've reviewed this thread but need a bit of a recap. I see that the problem started with fox changing encoders, and it looks like they are not entirely compliant with the sa 8300 boxes. Any advice on how to elevate this as a customer service issue?

I can only question if this issue is the cause of the headaches that I have heard of.

Still have terrible stuttering in Hudson Valley, NY, Time Warner Cable, WNYW FOX 5 out of New York City.

It's unwatchable.

Less stutter than last week, and yesterday's Cardinal's game had less, too.

However, the problem still exists ONLY ON FOX! This isn't the first time that FOX has been out on a limb either. I won't bother to recall previous seasons and the PQ issues they have dumped on Football fans. I can't wait until true football weather arrives.

Still having the issue here in Tampa on SA4250HD. Brighthouse is the provider. WTVT (FOX) is the only channel I have a problem with. Only live sports seem to be affected. Replays of action within the game are not affected, only live plays. I switched to 720p for the moment and it's not as bad, but it's still there. If Brighthoue doesn't get this fixed soon they're going to lose a customer to DirecTV. I gots to haves me football!

i have cablevision and its there on the football ball game but was not on the baseball game yesterday how dont fox know about this

Well the baseball game yesterday on Fox was stutter free, but the TB/Buff game does have stuttering. I had a feeling the problem wasnt resolved.

Stuttering today on Fox 45 Baltimore feed of the Redskins game.

My setup 52B750, Pioneer 1019, 8300HD
Bother-in-law 52XV645U, 8300HD

Both 8300HD boxes are set to 1080i and using HDMI cables.

Still seeing it on FOX with my 4250 on the Yorktown/Cross River system.
Both football and baseball.
Hannspree 720p with the box on pass-through and all modes enabled except interlaced.

This was posted last evening in the Charlotte TWC thread by the engineer at WCCB, Charlotte's FOX affiliate:

It is being worked on by FOX, Cisco, TWC, WCCB, and others..all together.
This is not something one can wave a magic wand and magically correct.

This was posted last evening in the Charlotte TWC thread by the engineer at WCCB, Charlotte's FOX affiliate:

I started to read the quote of acronyms out loud (...worked on by FOX, Cisco, TWC, WCCB,...) and began stuttering uncontrollably. Whew, I won't do that again and hope "they" fix it real soon ;)

Spoke to a Brighthouse tech today (Tampa, FL) and they've apparently just rolled out a new HD-DVR box manufactured by Samsung. Going to try and get my hands on that box to rid myself of the stuttering issue.

Anything new going on with this? I reported the problem to Foxsports.com and they sent me a copy of the problem report that I opened, saying that it was being looked at, and then noticed that they CLOSED the problem.

I used to work at a help desk at one time and we would never have been allowed to close out a problem before it was actually fixed. That's just not good business. There was also a line in the report that said if the problem was not resolved in one week, I should reopen the problem. So, since the problem was not resolved, I opened a new one and referenced the other one. I never got any response back from them this time.

Issue appears to be fixed for me. Watching the Sox/Yanks and I see no stuttering.

WTTG-HD Fox 5 DC
Comcast
SA8300HD

Time Warner
Rochester, NY
Explorer 8300 HDC

Watching Yanks/Sox and it is smooth as silk...FINALLY! ...and just in time for the postseason. I had experienced the "jitter" as recently as last Sunday and even may have noticed it on "so you think you can dance" early this week. Looks great now though!

I am not aware of any settings changes so I can only guess that they updated the firmware on the boxes?

cablevision here on long island and it looks good but that happen last weekend and then sunday football it came back hope its fixed for good

The stuttering problem appears to have been fixed. It just took two weeks of football to solve the problem, lol. More proof that no one watches baseball.

WNYW-DT New York
Cablevision
Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD

Fixed!!! Stutter free

Charter Cable

i hope its ok for football on sunday

Yes! It looks like baseball is fixed, but someone else said that baseball seemed to have been fixed last week, but football tomorrow will be the final test. Not sure how there could be a problem on one and not the other unless it is a problem with the actual broadcast and not on the cable system end.

Uh oh. Having problems here now during the Yankee game. Pixelation, frozen, and reverting to 4:3 screen size. Looks like there might be some more ironing out to do.

Charter Cable Long Beach, CA

Looks good here, too. (Comcast/NoVa/SA8300HD)

The stuttering problem appears to have been fixed. It just took two weeks of football to solve the problem, lol. More proof that no one watches baseball.

WNYW-DT New York
Cablevision
Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD
Same as you. Looks fixed too.

OTA with Vizio tuner and problem is gone. I guess Fox changed something.

Semi-educated guess is that the problem is due to Fox's use of 3 consecutive B frames. The old encoder's GOP structure was a fairly standard BBIBBPBBPBBPBBP, but the new encoder is putting out BBBIBBBPBBBPBBP. Most encoders default to the former or something similar with 2 max consecutive B frames. As far as I know, 3 consecutive isn't disallowed by ATSC, but it's not commonly used in any MPEG2 application. Improperly designed decoders may not handle this correctly, resulting in the stuttering seen on SA boxes and Vizio TVs. Simple workaround is for Fox to change the GOP structure in their encoders to match the one used under the old encoder.
GOP structure coming from Fox as of last night was back to the old BBIBBPBBPBBPBBP. Coincidence? I think not.

Watching Sox/Yanks here On Fox5 SanDiego and it looks like the stuttering is fixed.

Cox Cable
KSWB (Fox5)
SA4240HDC

I was bouncing around from different sports but the times I was watching the RedSox do their impersonation of grass and the Yankees the lawnmower there was no problem. Aside from the Fox usual softness.

For you kids watching, that is what a slider really looks like.

Seems like Baseball is fixed - thanks whomever. We'll see about Football....

Seemed to be fixed down here in South Florida also (Comcast, SA8300HD). Hopefully we get the same tomorrow with the NFL.

Uh oh. Having problems here now during the Yankee game. Pixelation, frozen, and reverting to 4:3 screen size. Looks like there might be some more ironing out to do.

Charter Cable Long Beach, CA

This is unrelated to the stuttering, and not found on a national basis. So the old chestnut 'local issue' is applied.

GOP structure coming from Fox as of last night was back to the old BBIBBPBBPBBPBBP. Coincidence? I think not.

You get extra credit for that one.

Maybe Mr. Murdoch will give you a call.....

FOX Pre-game appears to be stutter-free

WNYW New York via Cablevision
SA4250HD HDMI and Component

Uh Oh! I see the stutter on "Fox Nfl Sunday", this is not over yet.
Cablevision New York
Scientific Atlanta 8300HD

Ticker on the pregame show looks much better for me, although the whole image looks blurry and crappy, but that seems to be "normal" for the Fox pregame show.

I have no stutter today on Fox. Still not as crisp & clear as CBS though.

I have no stutter today on Fox. Still not as crisp & clear as CBS though.

Same here. Giants game is nice and smooth. Fox has never had the picture quality of other networks though.

So far so good here in Gilbert, AZ. Yesterday's baseball game was also stutter free.

KSAZ on Cox Cable
Gilbert, AZ

I have an HD-non DVR box with Bright House in Orlando and there was no shuttering during Yanks-Sox yesterday and non for Giants-Bucs.

Picture still not as good as CBS or TBS but it's a huge improvement.

I'm happy.

NYC Timewarner cable.

Fox hd broadcast is stutter free today.

I guess this thread will be closed soon.

No stuttering on the Falcons vs Pats - but I see lots of edge pixelation on the players as they move - not macroblocking but more like jpeg compression artifacts for an overly compressed picture.

I'm watching FoxHD, channel 705, San Diego TWC.

Looks like there was some sort of tradeoff between fixing the stuttering and picture quality, cuz in the past - for me - the PQ was actually pretty good.

FWIW,
Erik

NO at Buf looks great. No Stutter. TWC NE Ohio. Good job Fox. CBS still looks a little better though;)

NO at Buf looks great. No Stutter. TWC NE Ohio. Good job Fox. CBS still looks a little better though;)

Of course CBS will look better than FOX because it is 1080i with 18 mpbs bandwidth without subchannels. CBS HD blow away everyone else regarding picture quality and sound. Thank GOD the superbowl will be on CBS on FEB 2010.

Of course CBS will look better than FOX because it is 1080i with 18 mpbs bandwidth without subchannels. CBS HD blow away everyone else regarding picture quality and sound. Thank GOD the superbowl will be on CBS on FEB 2010.


Beg to differ....some of us are the victims of local affiliates and cable providers that either mismatch bit rates or have other subchannel bit thieves from affiliates where CBS equates to 'Crappy Blocky Sucky'.

Of course CBS will look better than FOX because it is 1080i with 18 mpbs bandwidth without subchannels. CBS HD blow away everyone else regarding picture quality and sound. Thank GOD the superbowl will be on CBS on FEB 2010. My frickin CBS has one sub which breaks up and pixelate's from time to time. Still. CBS does look better than Abc or Espn.

No stuttering here in Tampa for Sunday's games. It appears to be fixed. Of course, NFL games on CBS, NBC and ESPN still look better than FOX.

BH - SA4250HD

I found this thread through a Google search. I just upgraded to a Panny V10 this week and ESPN HD is unwatchable. Stutters constantly. Anyone else seeing this issue with that channel at the current time? I am going to call Time Warner tonight after work.

Time Warner
Milwaukee, WI
Explorer 8300 HDC

have stuttering on Fox too, I have Dish Network DVR, and a JVC ILA 56" HDTV it's only during Fox football coverage I think; but I honestly don't watch network TV much (except football)...

This started last week during the game, only on fox, no problem with CBS or NBC Sunday night or ESPN Monday night, and it's hapening this week as well only on Fox.

no issues here (Austin, TX) on Fox. Just the occasional freeze during a replay.

Using Dish Network DTVPal HD DVR with an over the air feed.

I just switched from PCM to Dolby Digital and the stuttering went away. I'm betting this is some sort of intermittent sound sync issue, because PCM was fine up to last sunday about half way through the first Fox game.

have stuttering on Fox too, I have Dish Network DVR, and a JVC ILA 56" HDTV it's only during Fox football coverage I think; but I honestly don't watch network TV much (except football)...

This started last week during the game, only on fox, no problem with CBS or NBC Sunday night or ESPN Monday night, and it's hapening this week as well only on Fox.

The stuttering discussed in this topic was video, not audio.

no issues here (Austin, TX) on Fox. Just the occasional freeze during a replay.

Using Dish Network DTVPal HD DVR with an over the air feed.

Watched parts of the Dallas-Seattle game and most of the Minnesota-Green Bay game on a Toshiba 52", 120hz LCD, via Comcast...and I did not see any of the aforementioned flicker, frame drops, etc. I know what you're talking about, but the broadcasts were clean here (Houston).

Redskins Vikings game. Choppy FOX audio on both my DVRs. Channel is KTTV, Los Angeles, and i am using Dish Network. I have experienced this same problem on my girlfriends Charter Service when watching FOX. Makes it unwatchable. I called to complain, but i didn't expect any results. They said they would send a tech out...I told them not to bother, it wasn't a problem on my end. I figure the more i call and complain, the more likely someone will do something...I just don't really know to whom i should whine. Dish, fox, etc.

^ See the 2nd post above yours.

Anybody else have the garbled audio in this game between the Redskins and the Eagles? It was like the audio was shorting out every 2 to 4 seconds, followed by 1 second dropouts. This even happened during commercials. I had to mute the game. Audio was fine on the other channels.

Ah Ha, KTTV Los Angeles, and Dish Network here too. AVS to the rescue again.

Anyone seeing stuttering on the Packers/Cards game?

Wash DC WTTG-HD Comcast

Anyone seeing stuttering on the Packers/Cards game?

Wash DC WTTG-HD Comcast

None via OTA...however there were a couple of sound drops...and the typical replay freeze. :rolleyes: