.
NPD has now released the latest six month sales revenue figures for retail dollar sales in the consumer product hardware and software categories it tracks.

Twice has reported them in their July 6th 2009 Issue

Its November 2008-April 2009 data on a SKU by SKU basis.

Included in those are category are Blu-ray players, DVD players and portable DVD players.


This is the first time Next Generation DVD Player / Recorder category has outsold Home DVD players in retail dollar sales during any reported period by NPD AFAIK.


Blu-ray to DVD

$376 M to $315 M

54.4 % to 45.6 %.


Its not units, but it is progress for Blu-ray in this retail category.

The top 10 brands also have 95.1% of Blu-ray hardware sales and that would be considered extremely brand dominated and Sony Samsung and Panasonic are the top 3 brands for Blu-ray sales.

Remember this is dollar sales per brand and is November 2008 through April 2009 so its before the latest 2009 era players have hit the shelves and before the last three months worth of Blu-ray hardware sales and retail price drops.


Blu-ray 54.4% 376.50
DVD 45.6% 315.59

total 692.09


Blu-ray 27.2 % 376.50
DVD 22.8 % 315.59
Mobile 12.5 % 173.46

total 1384.18





Next Gen DVD Player/Recorder Total $376,499,200 (Blu-ray)

Home DVD Player/Recorder Total $315,589,900 (DVD)

Portable DVD Total $173,456,900 (Mobile and Auto DVD)



http://www.twice.com/article/307509-Market_Share_Reports_By_Category.php?rssid=20328&q=market+Share+Reports+by+category

Market Share Reports By Category

By TWICE Staff -- TWICE, July 6, 2009

Market Share Reports By Category

The NPD Group, based in Port Washington, N.Y., has provided TWICE with consumer electronics retail dollar share rankings, by category, for the six-month period of November 2008 through April 2009. The rankings are based on data collected by NPD from select retailers and are based on actual dollar sales on a SKU-by-SKU basis. This midyear report supplements the data for January through October 2008 that appeared in the Jan. 8, 2009, Special CES Edition of TWICE, p. 22.

Rank November Through April 2009

Source: NPD Group

Note: Mobile categories cover after-market only


Next Gen DVD Player/Recorder Total $376,499,200
1 Sony
2 Samsung
3 Panasonic
4 LG
5 Sharp
6 Sylvania
7 Pioneer
8 Philips
9 Denon
10 Memorex
Top 10 Brands 95.1%


Home DVD Player/Recorder Total $315,589,900
1 Sony
2 Toshiba
3 Samsung
4 Memorex
5 Panasonic
6 Philips
7 Magnavox
8 LG
9 GPX
10 RCA
Top 10 Brands 89.9%


Portable DVD Total $173,456,900
1 Sony
2 RCA
3 Audiovox
4 Philips
5 GPX
6 Panasonic
7 Toshiba
8 Coby
9 Polaroid
10 Venturer
Top 10 Brands 59.6%

http://www.twice.com/article/307509-Market_Share_Reports_By_Category.php?rssid=20328&q=market+Share+Reports+by+category

For Nov 2008 - April 2009 NPD reports the following dollar sales.

These are the categories Next Gen DVD Players (Blu-ray) outsold.

Granted many of them are near 100% household penetration or are declining categories as they have been technologically replaced, but at Blu-ray's sales rate it will be in more households than many of these categories.

I would assume most people would consider many of those categories mainstream. ;)



November 2008 to April 2009 Dollar Sales (Millions)

$405.9 Memory Cards
$390.9 Input Device
$378.5 Home-Theater Audio Sys.

$376.5 Next Gen DVD Player/Recorder (Blu-ray)

$345.6 TV Combinations
$329.9 Stereo Headphones
$315.6 Home DVD Player/Recorder
$288.1 Cordless Phones w/Answering Device
$254.4 Home Speakers
$221.0 Hard Drive Disc Players
$202.7 Projection TV
$191.6 Cell Phone Accessories
$173.5 Portable DVD
$160.8 DVD Media
$156.2 In-Dash CD Players
$133.4 Laser Printers
$133.3 Cellular Headset
$108.3 Car Stereo Speakers
$107.4 PC Camera
$105.5 Inkjet Printers
$97.4 MultiMedia Speakers
$82.9 Remote Controllers
$79.8 Shelf Systems
$66.5 Cordless Phones
$60.7 Mobile Multimedia
$49.5 Satellite Radio Boxes
$48.6 PC Headset & Microphone
$46.2 CD Boombox
$45.1 Amplifiers
$43.3 Solid State Voice Recorders
$36.5 Corded Phones
$33.7 Direct-View Television
$31.3 Fax Machines
$30.0 Blank Video Tape
$24.5 Direct Broadcast Satellite
$17.9 Personal CD Players
$17.7 Portable Two-way Radios
$14.8 Hard Drive Recorders
$13.7 Personal Digital Assistants
$13.3 Telephone Headset
$11.9 Home CD Players
$11.0 Portable Tape Recorders
$7.8 Portable Radios w/o Cassette
$2.9 Stand Alone Answering Device
$2.9 CD Recorders
$2.4 35mm SLR
$1.0 Cassette Decks
$0.7 35mm Lens Shutter

I wonder who is buying them because it has made no impact on my circle of family, friends and co-workers. My only conclusion is this must be one of the greastest best kept secrets that no one wants to admit too!

I wonder who is buying them because it has made no impact on my circle of family, friends and co-workers. My only conclusion is this must be one of the greastest best kept secrets that no one wants to admit too!

Its because they are awaiting your recommendation to buy into the technology as you are probably the alpha geek of your friends and family circle if you found your way to this site and post here at AVS. :D

Check out the Blu-ray Sales Thread sometimes. Averaging by the HMM reported Nielsen Videoscan numbers around $16,140,000 a week in sales , $452,010,000 year to date and by an estimate of top 20 units 589,014 units or more each week and around 15,903,370 Blu-ray top 20 units year to date in 2009.

Hardly a secret. ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798272

Not surprising when average Blu-ray player is $250 and average DVD player is $50. But it's not bad.. I"m definitely impressed.

It must have electrolytes :D

Even at $250 a pop that is 60,000 units a week or 24% of all home units sold November to April!
With units becoming available for $100, that is sure to grow quite a bit over a short time.

More importantly the mark up for both the retailer and the manufacturer on a DVD player is at a point where there is really no incentive to to want to push it. The lone exception being Toshiba who can still make money off of royalties.

Heres the 2007 data (November 2006 through April 2007)

http://www.twice.com/article/244040-2007_Market_Share_Reports_By_Category_Part_1.php?q=market+Sh are+Reports+by+category

There was no Next Generation DVD category for this report from 2 years ago

dramatic declines for DVD sales and mobile DVD sales in the last 2 years


Home DVD Total $420,424,499
1 Sony
2 Philips
3 Toshiba
4 Samsung
5 Memorex
6 Sylvania
7 RCA
8 Cyberhome
9 Denon
10 Panasonic
TOP 10 BRANDS 76.6%


Portable DVD Total $315,985,520
1 Audiovox
2 Polaroid
3 Sony
4 Philips
5 Magnavox
6 Zenith
7 Toshiba
8 Protron
9 Panasonic
10 RCA
TOP 10 BRANDS 54.8%


November 2008 through April 2009 data again for comparison


Next Gen DVD Player/Recorder Total $376,499,200
1 Sony
2 Samsung
3 Panasonic
4 LG
5 Sharp
6 Sylvania
7 Pioneer
8 Philips
9 Denon
10 Memorex
Top 10 Brands 95.1%


Home DVD Player/Recorder Total $315,589,900
1 Sony
2 Toshiba
3 Samsung
4 Memorex
5 Panasonic
6 Philips
7 Magnavox
8 LG
9 GPX
10 RCA
Top 10 Brands 89.9%


Portable DVD Total $173,456,900
1 Sony
2 RCA
3 Audiovox
4 Philips
5 GPX
6 Panasonic
7 Toshiba
8 Coby
9 Polaroid
10 Venturer
Top 10 Brands 59.6%
[/QUOTE]

I can't find a matching 2008 report. I've looked through my print issues and their digital archive and searched the web and I can't find Nov 2007 to April 2008 data. I don't remember it and they may not have published it for some reason.

this is some other older data, but it runs Jan-Sep of the years cited


http://www.twice.com/article/255729-2005_Market_Share_Reports_By_Category.php?rssid=20328&q=++Market+Share+Reports+By+Category

2005 data

January through October 2005


Home DVD Total $1,007,876,628
1 Sony
2 Toshiba
3 Samsung
4 Panasonic
5 Cyberhome
Top Five Brands 59.6%
6 Sylvania
7 JVC
8 Philips
9 Memorex
10 Magnavox
Top Ten Brands 76.1%

Portable DVD Total $358,369,214
1 Polaroid
2 Audiovox
3 Cyberhome
4 Toshiba
5 Samsung
Top Five Brands 51.6%
6 Panasonic
7 Initial
8 Mintek
9 Magnavox
10 Memorex
Top Ten Brands 59.6%




http://www.twice.com/article/244763-2003_2004_Market_Share_Reports_By_Category.php?q=++Market+Sh are+Reports+By+Category

January through September 2004.


Home DVD Player/Recorder Total $1,926,101,060
1 Sony
2 Toshiba
3 Panasonic
4 Samsung
5 JVC
Top Five Brands 52.5%
6 Cyberhome
7 Zenith
8 Magnavox
9 Sylvania
10 Sansui
Top Ten Brands 70.2%

Portable DVD Player Total $554,197,134
1 Polaroid
2 Initial
3 Audiovox
4 Mintek
5 Toshiba
Top Five Brands 57.6%
6 Panasonic
7 Cyberhome
8 Sony
9 Samsung
10 Magnavox
Top Ten Brands 74.9%


2003 data

http://www.twice.com/article/245171-2003_Market_Share_Reports_By_Category.php?q=++Market+Share+R eports+By+Category

January through September 2003

Home DVD Player/Recorder Total $3,384,648,000
1 Sony
2 Panasonic
3 Apex
4 Toshiba
5 Emerson
Top Five Brands 48.6%
6 Samsung
7 Philips
8 Sylvania
9 JVC
10 RCA
Top Ten Brands 70.9%

Portable DVD Player Total $321,531,300
1 Panasonic
2 Apex
3 Toshiba
4 Audiovox
5 Samsung
Top Five Brands 35.3%
6 Polaroid
7 RCA
8 Sony
9 Emerson
10 Sanyo
Top Ten Brands 44.6%

I wonder who is buying them because it has made no impact on my circle of family, friends and co-workers. My only conclusion is this must be one of the greastest best kept secrets that no one wants to admit too!Ah, the hilarity of not even subtly insinuating there's something fishy by comparing (A) a personal anecdote with an infinitesimally small sample to (B) actual sales data from a longtime industry source. Nevermind that it's coming from someone who constantly attacks Blu-ray. I mean, no one in my circle of family, friends, and co-workers owns say, a Prius, but it's obviously not representative of actual sales data, nor would I be using that to claim that it's "one of the greatest best-kept secrets that no one wants to admit to."

It's not that hard to believe. I know stores are attaching Blu-ray players with tvs as a selling incentive.

Ah, the hilarity of not even subtly insinuating there's something fishy by comparing (A) a personal anecdote with an infinitesimally small sample to (B) actual sales data from a longtime industry source. Nevermind that it's coming from someone who constantly attacks Blu-ray. I mean, no one in my circle of family, friends, and co-workers owns say, a Prius, but it's obviously not representative of actual sales data, nor would I be using that to claim that it's "one of the greatest best-kept secrets that no one wants to admit to."


What do you expect? A very vocal minority membership of this site were drinking the HD DVD kool aid faster than they could make it.

Hell, I remember toward the end of the format war I was at a local BB in the Twin Cities and some clown came up to me with a big grin on his face holding a HD DVD saying that they were not going to be making Blus much longer. I guess the joke was on him.

If we are going statistically insignificant samples, here is my experience:
1. My non early adopter brother has Blu.
2. My non techie empty nester neighbors have Blu.
3. I have coworkers with Blu.
4. The appraiser that came to my home has Blu.

Again statistically insignificant, but in that respect, I have only heard of one coworker with a AppleTV box.

My statement has nothing to do with the opinions above. It is just a fact. You can take it or leave it. I have one friend with a BD player ( formally HD-DVD owner who traded in ) and a nephew with a PS3 who uses it mostly for games. They have been the only two for quite some time now so you can see why my perception is what it is. But no problem, I'm used to the typical remarks made by a certain few here.

What do you expect? A very vocal minority membership of this site were drinking the HD DVD kool aid faster than they could make it.

Hell, I remember toward the end of the format war I was at a local BB in the Twin Cities and some clown came up to me with a big grin on his face holding a HD DVD saying that they were not going to be making Blus much longer. I guess the joke was on him.

If we are going statistically insignificant samples, here is my experience:
1. My non early adopter brother has Blu.
2. My non techie empty nester neighbors have Blu.
3. I have coworkers with Blu.
4. The appraiser that came to my home has Blu.

Again statistically insignificant, but in that respect, I have only heard of one coworker with a AppleTV box.

Yes, and I called BS on several in a couple of threads in this forum last week and there was no response which there shouldn't be to truth that cannot be argued or denied. The reality of what BD is doing is diverging from the "reality" of those vocal few who don't own BD, but still act like or rather want it to fail.

My statement has nothing to do with the opinions above. It is just a fact. You can take it or leave it. I have one friend with a BD player ( formally HD-DVD owner who traded in ) and a nephew with a PS3 who uses it mostly for games. They have been the only two for quite some time now so you can see why my perception is what it is. But no problem, I'm used to the typical remarks made by a certain few here.

And so are we lodef. Do you own a BD player yet?

My statement has nothing to do with the opinions above. It is just a fact. You can take it or leave it. I have one friend with a BD player ( formally HD-DVD owner who traded in ) and a nephew with a PS3 who uses it mostly for games. They have been the only two for quite some time now so you can see why my perception is what it is. But no problem, I'm used to the typical remarks made by a certain few here.

LoL, the opinions above v. the facts in your post thats rich. I also like how it went from there is no impact in your circle to you have a friend and a nephew who both have players. Also, I'm sure that for all of your co-workers and aquaintances you are the first person they think of calling after purchasing a bluray player, since you know you are the official scorekeeper and all.

Yes, and I called BS on several in a couple of threads in this forum last week and there was no response which there shouldn't be to truth that cannot be argued or denied. The reality of what BD is doing is diverging from the "reality" of those vocal few who don't own BD, but still act like or rather want it to fail.

I don't really pay much attention to them anymore. They can live in their red colored sky world believing what ever they want. At this point I am fairly confident any major title is going to get the Blu treatment. I sold off a large portion of my DVD collection in the last two years because in five years most SD content is going to be worthless as far as resale value goes.

LoL, the opinions above v. the facts in your post thats rich. I also like how it went from there is no impact in your circle to you have a friend and a nephew who both have players. Also, I'm sure that for all of your co-workers and aquaintances you are the first person they think of calling after purchasing a bluray player, since you know you are the official scorekeeper and all.

too funny :D

I mean can anyone take his POV seriously. This site used to be about getting the best performance out of your gear and now some are advocating staying Lodef.

I don't really pay much attention to them anymore. They can live in their red colored sky world believing what ever they want. At this point I am fairly confident any major title is going to get the Blu treatment. I sold off a large portion of my DVD collection in the last two years because in five years most SD content is going to be worthless as far as resale value goes.

Yeah, I am almost finding it worthless now for many DVD titles that I own. Many of them are simply not worth the hassle of listing on Ebay and quite often the shipping costs are more than what the movies sell for.

I have a few stores near me that will let you trade-in movies but the going rate seems to be around $1 per title if you are lucky.

From my perspective, DVD has really devalued for trade-in over the last few years. At some point I would venture to say that many stores will only take certain movies (probably is already happening as I know Amazon's new DVD trade-in service is pretty selective as to which DVD titles they will take for trade-in).

Yeah, I am almost finding it worthless now for many DVD titles that I own. Many of them are simply not worth the hassle of listing on Ebay and quite often the shipping costs are more than what the movies sell for.

I have a few stores near me that will let you trade-in movies but the going rate seems to be around $1 per title if you are lucky.

From my perspective, DVD has really devalued for trade-in over the last few years. At some point I would venture to say that many stores will only take certain movies (probably is already happening as I know Amazon's new DVD trade-in service is pretty selective as to which DVD titles they will take for trade-in).

The devaluation (price wise) of DVD has been dramatic. Even Sony is doing a big push in selling DVDs for under $10. The plus side is all for the consumer as DVD now represents an incredible value. It does make it extremely difficult to convince the public at large to spend $20 (or more) on media.

Yeah, I am almost finding it worthless now for many DVD titles that I own. Many of them are simply not worth the hassle of listing on Ebay and quite often the shipping costs are more than what the movies sell for.

I have a few stores near me that will let you trade-in movies but the going rate seems to be around $1 per title if you are lucky.

From my perspective, DVD has really devalued for trade-in over the last few years. At some point I would venture to say that many stores will only take certain movies (probably is already happening as I know Amazon's new DVD trade-in service is pretty selective as to which DVD titles they will take for trade-in).

And BD's are now selling for 10.00-15.00 at Walmart and that includes many good titles that have been out a while. This is another reason the DVD bargain bins are now 3.00-5.00. DVD is going to be around for quite a while yet, but it is beyond a reasonable doubt going the way of VHS.

In time people that still don't have HDTV will by default of their current set failing and the only replacement is HD. Same with players as time goes on and they fail. BD players are now dropping significantly in price, store reps are going to tell and sell BD players and people buying who have common sense are going to buy the BD player to be "future proof" and at the same time they can still play their DVD's. This is all a given and common sense, so why do we have those still debating if BD is going to succeed, we don't we have those hoping BD will fail. UGH! I want to know why they want that? What is their motivation for wanting BD to fail or keeping on about its demise. :confused:

I wonder who is buying them because it has made no impact on my circle of family, friends and co-workers. My only conclusion is this must be one of the greastest best kept secrets that no one wants to admit too!

Must be, because I do not know of anyone in my little neighborhood, or any friends, etc, that even know what BD is.

Mike

This is all a given and common sense, so why do we have those still debating if BD is going to succeed, we don't we have those hoping BD will fail. UGH! I want to know why they want that? What is their motivation for wanting BD to fail or keeping on about its demise. :confused:

Can you name even 10 posters here who have stated they want (or think) BD will fail?

The devaluation (price wise) of DVD has been dramatic. Even Sony is doing a big push in selling DVDs for under $10. The plus side is all for the consumer as DVD now represents an incredible value. It does make it extremely difficult to convince the public at large to spend $20 (or more) on media.

Retailers and studios will be forced to make a similar decision that they did with VHS if they feel that the "bargin bin" DVD's are eating into Blu-Ray adoption and sales. Either phase out the bargain DVD's and focus on more lucrative DVD's (ie new release, boxsets, or collector edition catalog titles), or lower the price of Blu-Ray.

Much like what happened with regards to DVD and VHS, I see it being a combination of the two. It will be telling to see what Best Buy does with the bargain DVD's. They may just phase them out for Blu-Ray and let Walmart and the Dollar General stores fight over the scraps.

Can you name even 10 posters here who have stated they want (or think) BD will fail?


Why did you pick ten?

I can name the obvious ones who post here, but you know who they are as well and doing so will probably get me banned in a thread that is going to close anyway. I can PM you the few I know.

Yeah, I am almost finding it worthless now for many DVD titles that I own. Many of them are simply not worth the hassle of listing on Ebay and quite often the shipping costs are more than what the movies sell for.

I have a few stores near me that will let you trade-in movies but the going rate seems to be around $1 per title if you are lucky.

From my perspective, DVD has really devalued for trade-in over the last few years. At some point I would venture to say that many stores will only take certain movies (probably is already happening as I know Amazon's new DVD trade-in service is pretty selective as to which DVD titles they will take for trade-in).


I have been posting that I have DVDs for sale at my workplace.

I got tired of the hassle of Ebay long ago.

Why did you pick ten?

I can name the obvious ones who post here, but you know who they are as well and doing so will probably get me banned in a thread that is going to close anyway. I can PM you the few I know.

And it is pretty obivious they have an axe to grind since their format choice failed.

Time to move on.... if you are a true fan of film then there is no longer any reason you should be depriving yourself of Blu quality.

And it is pretty obivious they have an axe to grind since their format choice failed.

Time to move on.... if you are a true fan of film then there is no longer any reason you should be depriving yourself of Blu quality.

Yes a true fan of the best or closest we can get to film at home, in some cases maybe better sound and picture quality then the theatre. At this point anyone doing so in these discussions is playing devil's advocate against the inevitable which as some mentioned is a contradiction to the intent of coming to these forums.

Retailers and studios will be forced to make a similar decision that they did with VHS if they feel that the "bargin bin" DVD's are eating into Blu-Ray adoption and sales. Either phase out the bargain DVD's and focus on more lucrative DVD's (ie new release, boxsets, or collector edition catalog titles), or lower the price of Blu-Ray.

Much like what happened with regards to DVD and VHS, I see it being a combination of the two. It will be telling to see what Best Buy does with the bargain DVD's. They may just phase them out for Blu-Ray and let Walmart and the Dollar General stores fight over the scraps.

Even with DVDs decline, it still represents the lions share of home entertainment revenue for the studios. It would be a very lofty estimate to say that Blu-ray would even capture 20% of physical media for this calendar year. It is going to be very difficult to handle the transition from DVD without some serious financial pain. It is one of the reasons you see the DEG discussing Digital Distribution numbers so predominantly, and hear studios discussing multiple home entertainment channels as a strategy for handling the transition. There is no one source that looks to be able to duplicate DVDs numbers in the next 5-6 years.

It will be a combination of several revenue sources that will be needed.

Why did you pick ten?

I can name the obvious ones who post here, but you know who they are as well and doing so will probably get me banned in a thread that is going to close anyway. I can PM you the few I know.

I figured it must be a significant number since we usually see a string of posts from people speaking about this "red" menace. If it is really that prevalent, there should at least be a fraction of a percent of forum members.

I guess I find it to be "weak sauce" to throw out unnamed accusations rather than discuss the topic. I certainly try and discuss the topic at hand (first and foremost). Even people who I think are sometimes overzealous on this topic do bring in data or insight. And yes, they also do get stuck in a rut arguing fruitlessly on a topic where they do not have data (and there is solid conflicting data available).

I figured it must be a significant number since we usually see a string of posts from people speaking about this "red" menace. If it is really that prevalent, there should at least be a fraction of a percent of forum members.

I guess I find it to be "weak sauce" to throw out unnamed accusations rather than discuss the topic. I certainly try and discuss the topic at hand (first and foremost). Even people who I think are sometimes overzealous on this topic do bring in data or insight. And yes, they also do get stuck in a rut arguing fruitlessly on a topic where they do not have data (and there is solid conflicting data available).

It isn't about the red menace or them still trying to promote HD DVD, nor is it about me ever having anything against HD DVD. It is a vocal few as in 3-5, but they keep the mantra up over and over so they get the oil from us supporters and self promoters of BD, hence why you keep hearing from us who are persistent as well calling BS. :D

It isn't about them simply talking negatively about BD either even if they back it up with actual data and facts. For me it is wondering what the intent is of the few who claim it is going to fail or making bogus claims as to why it should fail. What is their motivation for coming here and posting in these threads is what I am wondering. If you are for something you want it to succeed. If you are against it you want it to fail. If you only talk negatively about it and or find and post things that are only negative, which the few I mentioned do, what is their purpose, a hope for it to fail? What else can it be? I and others can't read minds, but we are not brain dead to the obvious nor are we reading into the obvious.

It isn't about the red menace or them still trying to promote HD DVD, nor is it about me ever having anything against HD DVD. It is a vocal few as in 3-5, but they keep the mantra up over and over so they get the oil from us supporters and self promoters of BD, hence why you keep hearing from us who are persistent as well calling BS. :D

It isn't about them simply talking negatively about BD either even if they back it up with actual data and facts. For me it is wondering what the intent is of the few who claim it is going to fail or making bogus claims as to why it should fail. What is their motivation for coming here and posting in these threads is what I am wondering. If you are for something you want it to succeed. If you are against it you want it to fail. If you only talk negatively about it and or find and post things that are only negative, which the few I mentioned do, what is their purpose, a hope for it to fail? What else can it be?

We have a few folks who only post in the Video Download section trying to post negative info, and/or start arguments.

If they post false or misleading info, I correct it (which usually is not hard to do as the trends are favorable for Digital Distribution). If they are just talking out of their arses, I let them. It certainly does not change any facts or cause misinformation... it just makes them look foolish and bitter.

I will even provide some perspective if they post seriously massaged data... but won't question them on why they are posting it. When all is said and done, they are the ones who own their post history.

One thing that I have found a bit surprising is that people who I consider to be otherwise fair (and logical) do not step in to stop folks who are making poor arguments "in support" of Blu-ray. Their posting poor (or poorly thought out) information does not really support Blu-ray in any way. I would think that folks would want to step in and say "sorry, but you are wrong this time" and give this section a reputation where information is valued over format cheer leading.

My statement has nothing to do with the opinions above. It is just a fact. You can take it or leave it. I have one friend with a BD player ( formally HD-DVD owner who traded in ) and a nephew with a PS3 who uses it mostly for games. They have been the only two for quite some time now so you can see why my perception is what it is. But no problem, I'm used to the typical remarks made by a certain few here.I could believe you if you hadn't used your personal perception with a sample size so small as to be nonexistent as some sort of "proof" that the numbers from a long-standing research firm are being manipulated. That's solidified by your characterization that your supposition is (in your own words) "fact," whereas actual data means nothing.

And as for the "typical remarks" jibe: rocks, glass houses, etc. Nearly every post you make in this section is the exact same litany: statement of personal experience (always negative of Blu-ray) trumps or calls into question any and all actual data, including photo evidence.

I could believe you if you hadn't used your personal perception with a sample size so small as to be nonexistent as some sort of "proof" that the numbers from a long-standing research firm are being manipulated. That's solidified by your characterization that your supposition is (in your own words) "fact," whereas actual data means nothing.

And as for the "typical remarks" jibe: rocks, glass houses, etc. Nearly every post you make in this section is the exact same litany: statement of personal experience (always negative of Blu-ray) trumps or calls into question any and all actual data, including photo evidence.

Go back and read my post. I never refuted the numbers, just asked who is buying them and if so, maybe they are not telling anybody. That is the conclusion I came to based on the knowledge I have from that circle of people I was talking about. Sorry that is hard for you to accept and you always have to resort to your usual attacks because you interpet everything as a negative because of a former format war.

PS: The ignore button can be your friend!

We have a few folks who only post in the Video Download section trying to post negative info, and/or start arguments.

If they post false or misleading info, I correct it (which usually is not hard to do as the trends are favorable for Digital Distribution). If they are just talking out of their arses, I let them. It certainly does not change any facts or cause misinformation... it just makes them look foolish and bitter.

You do know that when we leave one of your thread it's not because you have won or proved a point. We mostly leave because we are tired of the cut and paste job that most of the time have no relation to what we were arguing about (read: strawman, misdirection etc.)


I will even provide some perspective if they post seriously massaged data... but won't question them on why they are posting it. When all is said and done, they are the ones who own their post history.

One thing that I have found a bit surprising is that people who I consider to be otherwise fair (and logical) do not step in to stop folks who are making poor arguments "in support" of Blu-ray. Their posting poor (or poorly thought out) information does not really support Blu-ray in any way. I would think that folks would want to step in and say "sorry, but you are wrong this time" and give this section a reputation where information is valued over format cheer leading.

But you are right I'll abstain of going in the DC section. Since you post over 60% of the content there (and even sometime answer your own question) I'll restrict myself.

You do know that when we leave one of your thread it's not because you have won or proved a point. We mostly leave because we are tired of the cut and paste job that most of the time have no relation to what we were arguing about (read: strawman, misdirection etc.)

But you are right I'll abstain of going in the DC section. Since you post over 60% of the content there (and even sometime answer your own question) I'll restrict myself.

See what I mean. :cool:

Notice that Nosferax would never actually try and point out a specific argument of mine as a strawman because he cannot do so without looking foolish. General accusation is much safer.

Must be, because I do not know of anyone in my little neighborhood, or any friends, etc, that even know what BD is.

Mike

Blu-ray penetration must be seen as a function of HDTV penetration (particulary 1080P). When you consider this point, Blu-ray looks like it is doing really well.

See what I mean. :cool:

Notice that Nosferax would never actually try and point out a specific argument of mine as a strawman because he cannot do so without looking foolish. General accusation is much safer.

Even if I did you would spin it until it fit you way of thinking, so what is the point. The fact is you are one of those who always want to have the last word, like an adolescent arguing, believing he nows everything. I'm grown up, I know that when an adolescent act like this the better thing to do is just go away. In his head he's always right and nothing you do will bring him to his senses.

Even if I did you would spin it until it fit you way of thinking, so what is the point. The fact is you are one of those who always want to have the last word, like an adolescent arguing, believing he nows everything. I'm grown up, I know that when an adolescent act like this the better thing to do is just go away. In his head he's always right and nothing you do will bring him to his senses.

Self introspective is an admirable trait.

Now if you want to actually counter any of the assertions I have made in the Video Download section, go for it. Please feel free to accuse me of strawman tactics. I truly look forward to it.

Self introspective is an admirable trait.

Now if you want to actually counter any of the assertions I have made in the Video Download section, go for it. Please feel free to accuse me of strawman tactics. I truly look forward to it.

Thank you for proving my point. Here now you can have the last word.

It will be a combination of several revenue sources that will be needed.

just like DVD coexisted with other delivery options.

As someone else said BD is tied to HDTV adoption so when you examine BD adoption rates with that key piece of data included... BD is doing fine. DVD had the advantage of being compatible with every set sold. There is not much of point of having a BD player if you don't have a HDTV.

You do know that when we leave one of your thread it's not because you have won or proved a point. We mostly leave because we are tired of the cut and paste job that most of the time have no relation to what we were arguing about (read: strawman, misdirection etc.)




But you are right I'll abstain of going in the DC section. Since you post over 60% of the content there (and even sometime answer your own question) I'll restrict myself.

Maybe he enjoys a battle of wits with himself. Dare I hope he never has a "Battle of Wits to the Death":eek:

just like DVD coexisted with other delivery options.

As someone else said BD is tied to HDTV adoption so when you examine BD adoption rates with that key piece of data included... BD is doing fine. DVD had the advantage of being compatible with every set sold. There is not much of point of having a BD player if you don't have a HDTV.

Blu-ray is also compatible with every TV set sold. You just won't see full fidelity based on what is on the disc. That was also true with DVD, pretty much unless you had a TV with component inputs that supported 480p (and a DVD player that supported both).

Even when DVD really started to take off, most people could not support the 5.1 audio in their homes (most probably still can't). But that is an academic discussion...


I do think BD is doing fine. And the studios seem to think that the "killer app" that is going to propel BD into people's homes is BD-Live. I won't even pretend to guess who is right on that front....

More importantly the mark up for both the retailer and the manufacturer on a DVD player is at a point where there is really no incentive to to want to push it. The lone exception being Toshiba who can still make money off of royalties.

True. Plus portable DVD players are not counted as DVD players by this survey. Plus all blu Ray players are also DVD players but not vice versa.

Maybe he enjoys a battle of wits with himself. Dare I hope he never has a "Battle of Wits to the Death":eek:

Considering the alternative competition, perhaps you are right...

And I would never have a Battle of Wits to the Death with myself.... even if I am not Sicilian.

What is that 1.5 million bluray players, vs maybe 3 million DVD players.

And most people already own a DVD player or two anyway, why buy another.

DVD players are fairly robust. My RP 56 took on everything a toddler could thow at it and performed beautifully for years. My Denon 2910 bought just before the war (BD v. HD) shows no signs of tiring. When it dies I'll either replace it with a bluray or some little box that downloads HD programming off the internet.

This is great news.

The more players are sold, the sooner one of my personal pet peeves will fade into the past.

It really bugs me that highlighted new releases at Blockbuster are only running at about a 30-50% hit rate on the Blu-Ray shelf. Every DVD I rent is a few bucks not going towards growing Blu-Ray and helping to ensure it is long term successful and that there is just that much more of a chance that the next movie I want to watch is on Blu and not just DVD.

And no it's not just a local BB thing as when discussed previously I did a movie by movie check over a few weeks against what was available at Amazon and it was an exact match. The July 14th release slate was one of the worst for this.

Anyway, it's great news on the player front and hopefully only a matter of time before pretty much any new movie released comes out on Blu-Ray at the same time as the DVD.

And before anyone argues, I agree that my personal pet peeve IN NO WAY signifies the end of the world as we know it or long term doom and gloom for Blu-Ray. I just wish it was better is all.

Cheers

Makes sense to me. A BD player sells for $299 and DVD players sell for $29 - $39 (Sure some of each cost more). Disc sales are 10:1, so I would guess player sales should be down at the 7:1 level.
Also, DVD player market is saturated and BD player market is not. I have several DVD players that I somehow ended up for which I don't have TVs.


But memory cards? I though that market was in decline. They appear to be doing very well.

A couple questions, and perhaps I missed the answers.

1. Why are recorders counted in the same category as BD? because they can PLAY a disc?

2. What category does the PS3 go in?

Makes sense to me. A BD player sells for $299 and DVD players sell for $29 - $39 (Sure some of each cost more). Disc sales are 10:1, so I would guess player sales should be down at the 7:1 level.
Also, DVD player market is saturated and BD player market is not. I have several DVD players that I somehow ended up for which I don't have TVs.


But memory cards? I though that market was in decline. They appear to be doing very well.
With memory cards being so cheap I have to wonder if people just keep their pictures on them instead of reformatting the cards.

A couple questions, and perhaps I missed the answers.

1. Why are recorders counted in the same category as BD? because they can PLAY a disc?

2. What category does the PS3 go in?
The categories for gaming consoles were not in that report of these CE categories. The PS3 is not included in this category, nor is the Xbox 360 or Wii. Or for that matter neither the PS2 and Xbox .

There currently are no AFAIK Blu-ray recorders actually on the market in North America or Europe but its a major category in Japan. NPD develops these categories to last for years and assigns every single new device by SKU into a separate category. It tries to makes new technologies similar to their predecessors when possible, and its natural and reasonable to assume that Blu-ray recorders over time will be a substantial share of the market even if they are not much in the US right now.

The recorders are in the Next Gen DVD Player/Recorder category as its a good match for the Home DVD Player/Recorder which has counted recorders in their numbers for years now.

I kinda assumed the PS3 was in those numbers. If it's not then that's even better.

Sure part of the reason is that less people may be needing a DVD player. That said you cannot escape the simple truth that BD players MUST be starting to get to the point in awareness and price point that when someone is making that player decision they are getting more and more tempted to buy a BD player.

There is a long long way to go to getting DVD player type penetration numbers, but progress is progress and the year over year numbers are encouraging also.

If I understand how DVD went, then all of a sudden we will reach a point where almost every new player bought is a BD player. A little while after that it should pretty much explode with people buying them even when they don't need a new player, but want the BD experience The will see more and more people they know have it, they will see it taking over the rental stores and wall-marts etc.

Who is to say where we would be already without this crazy recession. Maybe not any magnitude better, but certainly farther along.

Cheers

Blu-ray penetration must be seen as a function of HDTV penetration (particulary 1080P). When you consider this point, Blu-ray looks like it is doing really well.

That is a limiting factor that DVD did not have to face.

That is a limiting factor that DVD did not have to face.

Consider in history:

TVs at the time DVDs came into being regardless of screen size, showed 480p, but most were 480i and progressive was rare. Thus, DVD was matched to what TVs could do. Most screens were 30" or less.

DVD quality had little competition when it was released, its closest quality was laserdisc, 30 min each side then flip the disc :eek:

There is no streaming equivalent during the birth of DVD.

BD OTAH simply replaces the old DVD model of sales and renting, while providing the PQ matched to today's TVs. However, its sales will see pressure and be diluted by those who don't own TVs to appreciate its PQ, and stick with DVD or current generation of streamers.

Consider in history:Just a little nitpicking:


The video that is stored on a DVD is 480i
LaserDisc that were CAV were limited to 30 minutes per side, disc that were CLV were limited 60 minutes per side.
We were streaming our TV programing to the internet in the late 90's. It is true there were no Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, etc. doing streaming.

Blu-ray penetration must be seen as a function of HDTV penetration (particulary 1080P). When you consider this point, Blu-ray looks like it is doing really well.

Yep, by ignoring those slackard 720P and 1080i owners who refuse to join the 21st century, the Blu-ray numbers look much better :p

A couple questions, and perhaps I missed the answers.

1. Why are recorders counted in the same category as BD? because they can PLAY a disc?

2. What category does the PS3 go in?

PS3 sales are currently at 22.53 Million world wide.

Just a little nitpicking:


The video that is stored on a DVD is 480i
LaserDisc that were CAV were limited to 30 minutes per side, disc that were CLV were limited 60 minutes per side.
We were streaming our TV programing to the internet in the late 90's. It is true there were no Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, etc. doing streaming.


To add to your nitpicking...DVD had a competing format known as Divx. A few studios preferred it over DVD for a little while. It's easy to claim now that Divx had no future, but I recall most of being a little worried back in '97 and '98.

Also, I may be wrong and I know I will get corrected here, but I thought some DVDs were 720x480p (or 720x576p) but that most players were only capable of outputing 480i (or 576i).

It's easy to claim now that Divx had no future, but I recall most of being a little worried back in '97 and '98.There was a fierce cyberspace battle between “Standard DVD” and “Divx DVD” and yours truly was in the middle of it. In the simple forum it was renters vs. collectors. The battle grounds were forums on CompuServe, AOL and private internet forums like eTown, The Big Picture (both now defunct) and AVS (too bad the AVS archives only go back to 2000). The eTown forums were not moderated and were definitely R rated. The Blu-ray vs. HD DVD at AVS would looked tame in comparison.

Jim Taylor has all the info on DVD formatting.

There was a fierce cyberspace battle between “Standard DVD” and “Divx DVD” and yours truly was in the middle of it. In the simple forum it was renters vs. collectors. The battle grounds were forums on CompuServe, AOL and private internet forums like eTown, The Big Picture (both now defunct) and AVS (too bad the AVS archives only go back to 2000). The eTown forums were not moderated and were definitely R rated. The Blu-ray vs. HD DVD at AVS would looked tame in comparison.

Jim Taylor has all the info on DVD formatting.

I remember those battle on alt.video.dvd

One of the strong point of Divx was that most titles were pan & scan :p
Yep we had to fight that battle also to get our beloved OAR DVD.

Oh and one of the biggest backer of Divx was Universal... They sure have trouble picking the winner don't they? :D

Oh and one of the biggest backer of Divx was Universal... They sure have trouble picking the winner don't they? :D

Actually, Universal did a very good job of also supporting DVD at the same time, along with Sony and Warners.

Disney produced a couple of DVD's and then went Divx. Fox and Paramount were the real holdouts.

But I will give Universal some credit for that one.

I remember those battle on alt.video.dvdWow, I had forgot all about that one, IIRC, it was a free-for-all there. At work the IS folks started blocking access to News Groups many years ago and as time went by I stopped using them. Now I don’t even remember the steps necessary to join the groups.

There was a fierce cyberspace battle between “Standard DVD” and “Divx DVD” and yours truly was in the middle of it. In the simple forum it was renters vs. collectors. The battle grounds were forums on CompuServe, AOL and private internet forums like eTown, The Big Picture (both now defunct) and AVS (too bad the AVS archives only go back to 2000). The eTown forums were not moderated and were definitely R rated. The Blu-ray vs. HD DVD at AVS would looked tame in comparison.

Jim Taylor has all the info on DVD formatting. I'm glad I did not suffer through that! One format war in home media is enough for me. :D

I'm glad I did not suffer through that! One format war in home media is enough for me. :DI hear y’a, it does get really old after many years. In response to the anti Blu-ray folks here and elsewhere I have posted many times “I have heard all that before”. I said the same in response to the anti DVD folks, the anti 8VSB folks, etc. I was reading some of the old anti DVD and anti 8VSB post not long ago and it is interesting that you could plugin Blu-ray into those post and they would look like many of the anti Blu-ray post being made in recent times.

Below is a few other “conflicts” I have been involved in both professionally and as a hobbyist.

1" C vs. 1" B vs. 2" Quadraplex ● 16x9 vs. 4x3 ● 1920 x 1080 vs. 1280 x 720 ● ⅔" CCD vs. ½" CCD ● 8VSB vs. COFDM ● Avid vs. CMX ● BetaCam vs. Type M ● CD vs. LP ● Laserdisc vs. CED ● PCM 3324/3348 (DASH) vs. Mitsubishi 32 ● Plumbicon vs. CCD ● Solid State vs. Tubes

My problem with the numbers is they use the dollars of units sold rather than the number of units sold. It is common knowledge that BD players are more expensive than SD players so these numbers don't really tell us anything.
I would rather see the number of units because that IMO gives you a more accurate picture of what is being sold and I think that it is a more "honest" number. Also if they are including SD recorders in those number that skews the numbers even more.

My problem with the numbers is they use the dollars of units sold rather than the number of units sold. It is common knowledge that BD players are more expensive than SD players so these numbers don't really tell us anything.When the time comes and the heading is, “Blu-ray sells more units than DVD” then there will be post saying the number of units do not matter but how much money is being made.

16x9 vs. 4x3 ● 1920 x 1080 vs. 1280 x 720 ● ⅔" CCD vs. ½" CCD

I dont think I would call that a conflict.

I dont think I would call that a conflict.From my seating position it definitely was/is a conflict!

For my seating, its was just a question of money. ;)

I remember those battle on alt.video.dvd

One of the strong point of Divx was that most titles were pan & scan :p
Yep we had to fight that battle also to get our beloved OAR DVD.

Oh and one of the biggest backer of Divx was Universal... They sure have trouble picking the winner don't they? :D

I remember following The Digital Bits/Bill Hunt who was a big proponet of DVD and fought hard to promote it over Divx.

It was Dreamworks, 20th Century Fox, and Paramount Pictures that exclusively backed Divx.

When the time comes and the heading is, “Blu-ray sells more units than DVD” then there will be post saying the number of units do not matter but how much money is being made.


My preference is always number of units sold. Those numbers aren't really telling you how much money was being made, it is only the total number of dollars of units sold. For all we know they could be losing money on each BD player sold but I doubt they are.

My preference is always number of units sold.My preference is to see all the relevant numbers but there is very little chance of that ever happening. Unless you have access to company books then a few public numbers do not mean very much by themselves. In the example below what would you prefer, a greater profit per unit or greater unit sales?

Units Sold Profit Total Profit
1E+06 55 55,000,000
3E+06 14 42,000,000

I remember following The Digital Bits/Bill Hunt who was a big proponet of DVD and fought hard to promote it over Divx.A little trip down memory lane, it has been a little over 10 years since Divx DVD backers call it quits (http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-227194.html) (Click for article). I remember the feeling of relief when the news broke, it was similar to when RCA announced the end CED and when Warner announced exclusive BD support.

It was Dreamworks, 20th Century Fox, and Paramount Pictures that exclusively backed Divx.Yea, I disliked them for doing that, I was grateful that Dreamworks and 20th Century Fox supported D-VHS D-Theater.

It was Dreamworks, 20th Century Fox, and Paramount Pictures that exclusively backed Divx.
By the time the Divx nationwide marketing program began in the fall of 1998, all of the Divx studios had committed to DVD. Fox and Dreamworks were the last two DVD holdouts, with Fox committing in the summer of 1998 and Dreamworks in the fall.

No studio released exclusively to Divx, although for various reasons many titles were first released to Divx and later to DVD.
Edit: I was grateful that Dreamworks and 20th Century Fox supported D-VHS D-TheaterMy impression was that D-VHS support was a nose-thumbing by studios that stubbornly refused to back DVD wholeheartedly.

Below is a few other “conflicts” I have been involved in both professionally and as a hobbyist.

1" C vs. 1" B vs. 2" Quadraplex ● 16x9 vs. 4x3 ● 1920 x 1080 vs. 1280 x 720 ● ⅔" CCD vs. ½" CCD ● 8VSB vs. COFDM ● Avid vs. CMX ● BetaCam vs. Type M ● CD vs. LP ● Laserdisc vs. CED ● PCM 3324/3348 (DASH) vs. Mitsubishi 32 ● Plumbicon vs. CCD ● Solid State vs. Tubes

What no VHS vs Beta? I am old enough to remember buying my first Toshiba Beta player. That thing was like a tank and the remote control was wired to the unit and basically just turned the unit on and off! That Tosh cost about $800 around 1979-1980 I believe and the pre-recorded tapes were about $80 a pop, and people think BDs are expensive.

I was on the losing end of that fracus too!:D

What no VHS vs Beta?Oh yes, I was in the middle of that one as well but I was somewhat format neutral ;). I purchased my first (only) βeta Hi-Fi (IIRC, a model SL-HF950) in late 1984 for about $1200.00 (1984 prices). I did not buy a VHS Hi-Fi (a Panasonic model for more than $600.00) till the local rental market waned on βeta format and LaserDisc movies.

The βeta format used a larger video drum (which meant the effective head-to-tape velocity was higher) than the VHS format which in turn meant better video performance. VHS had the advantage of a larger size video cassette.

Thread rolled back to the last mention of any kind of hardware. Off topic and bickering posts removed.

If it's not about hardware sales then move on, please.

I'm pleased that today the premiere home video format is getting promoted, a reversal of late Nineties practice where hot titles were released to Laserdisc, which few wanted, first and DVD much later.

It bodes well for Blu-ray hardware sales.