This seems like as good as place as any for this...

Here's the scoop: I have a TON of gear plugged into a rather nice surge protector. Problem is, it of course terminates into ONE wall outlet.

Now, while I'm not an idiot, it never occured to me to divide this up, as it could be a potential problem. Going the better part of a year with no issues hasn't motivated me either. Still, I wonder if this is just a bomb waiting to go off, or if my equipment is suffering from surely inevitable sags in power (no lights dimming or anything other obvious issues). I'm hardly an electrician, so let me just list what I have and my estimated (and mostly, known) power consumption and perhaps some in the know can speak to my situ...

Get ready, this is ridiculous (to me anyways):

Denon 3800CI 130X7 WPC...and I do listen at rather high volumes fairly often.

Potentially 910 watts RMS (peaks higher, I'm sure)?

Kuro 6020 Plasma: 350?

Wii: 150 watts?

PS3: 200 watts?

Apple TV: 50 watts

DirecTV HR-20 Sat Box: 50 watts

Acom 2535 Amp: 60X4: 250 watts (not operated terribly often)

wait, it gets better (or worse)

Definitive BP 2000's- both have internal 150W RMS amps- least 300 watts?

Definitive CLR 2500 Center Channel Speaker: 150W RMS amp: 150 watts?

Controller chargers for (4) PS3 controllers: 20 watts?

Wii controller chargers for (2) controllers: 10 watts?

Flourescent back-light for TV: 20 watts.

Finally...

An SVS Ultra 13 Subwoofer...has an internal 750 BASH RMS amp...1500 watt peaks, potentially?

Now, I realize ALL of these devices are not always operating simultaneously or drawing their max current, but STILL!!! I'm assuming there's a fair chance the outlet "sees" 2000+ watts fairly often.

Just to throw it out there: I've NEVER had an outtage, tripped a circuit, etc.

Twice in 6 months, my Denon reset, after extended high-volume listening sessions. I'm assuming this was just the unit's protection circuitry, although I've heard that it can also occur due to a LACK of input current?

Otherwise, can't say I've had a single problem.

Wow!!! Potentially 3210 watts RMS all-told, insane right, as a typical outlet is rated for 1800, correct? This is on a traditional 15 amp circuit? Is it easy enough to tell if I have 15 or 20 amp breakers? Yes, I'm that green ;). If they're 20 I'm in a bit better shape, logically?

Obviously(?) utilizing both plugs on the same outlet doesn't do me any good, but does using another outlet help...it doesn't have to be on another circuit, right, that 1800 rating is for one outlet or the entire circuit?

Just don't know, truthfully. I am of course assuming my current arrangement is unacceptable.

Just odd that I've gone so long, issue free?!

thanks for the help, guys,

James

I have just about all of your gear setup off of one 15amp circuit, including the SVS PC13-Ultra sub and Denon 4308ci and three amped speakers with subs. Never had any issues with any of it. And I back it up with a 750v UPS battery backup so I don't have to reset everything when the power spurts on me. I have even more gear in my whole house audio video room setup the same way.

If you really look at the actual voltages and break it down into raw amps, it really does not add up to that much. It is not like a heavy compressor starting up where allot of juice is really needed.

Just make sure your grounded at the outlet and have good grounding at your panel. But I would tell any one that, even just to plug in a clock radio.

Mike

On edit, if you are tripping your Denon protection circuit, I would strongly recommend turning it down or buying a separate amp to power your speakers. You are doing damage to your AVR and your hearing.

I have just about all of your gear setup off of one 15amp circuit, including the SVS PC13-Ultra sub and Denon 4308ci and three amped speakers with subs. Never had any issues with any of it. And I back it up with a 750v UPS battery backup so I don't have to reset everything when the power spurts on me. I have even more gear in my whole house audio video room setup the same way.

If you really look at the actual voltages and break it down into raw amps, it really does not add up to that much. It is not like a heavy compressor starting up where allot of juice is really needed.

Just make sure your grounded at the outlet and have good grounding at your panel. But I would tell any one that, even just to plug in a clock radio.

Mike

On edit, if you are tripping your Denon protection circuit, I would strongly recommend turning it down or buying a separate amp to power your speakers. You are doing damage to your AVR and your hearing.


Yeah, the days of blasting 7 channel stereo for parties is over! It's "only" happened twice and I now only go 2 channel at moderately high volume.

Crazy...seems we're nearly "gear twins"!

James

You might get one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1248449882&sr=8-1

It will tell you what you're truly drawing from the circuit.

Yeah, the days of blasting 7 channel stereo for parties is over! It's "only" happened twice and I now only go 2 channel at moderately high volume.

Crazy...seems we're nearly "gear twins"!

James

Yeah, funny how the gear is almost identical, no Acom amp or PS3, but everything else is the same including a 58" plasma. Like I said, as long as your your panel is grounded properly and all of that, I would not worry.

And the loud music, I still get yelled at, but it is not THAT loud to trip my AVR.

Not that I haven't done it, but that was years ago with lesser gear then what we play with.:D

Mike

You might get one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1248449882&sr=8-1

It will tell you what you're truly drawing from the circuit.


Fun! Now the other half will have yet another reason to demonize my hobby when she sees this thing light up like a Christmas tree, LOL.


Might get one anyways!

James

does using another outlet help...it doesn't have to be on another circuit, right, that 1800 rating is for one outlet or the entire circuit?

Circuit. 15 amps per circuit times 120 volts is 1800 watts. It doesn't matter if it is in one receptacle or two.

Because of the non-continuous nature of the surges, you won't necessarily blow your circuit breakers because of their time-duration tripping nature, even if you are overloading your circuitry on a routine and periodic basis.

As Brian wrote, a 15 Amp circuit can handle 1800 Watts continuous (and continuous means 3 hours). The circuit breaker is the overload safety device and should trip long before the fire starts.

As Brian wrote, a 15 Amp circuit can handle 1800 Watts continuous (and continuous means 3 hours). The circuit breaker is the overload safety device and should trip long before the fire starts.

I Canada (might be different in the USA) a 15 amp breaker is only rated to hold 80% at a continuous load. So it actually only works out to about 1500 watts.

Also recognize that in any decent amp the peak current is typically handled by the bulk capacitance sitting on the amp rails. Your wall sees an average load that is less than the peak (and usually) just slightly higher than the nominal load. Even if you put a meter on your devices, you are unlikely to see the peaks show up unless you draw a very high load for a long time.

I Canada (might be different in the USA) a 15 amp breaker is only rated to hold 80% at a continuous load. So it actually only works out to about 1500 watts.

It's the same as in the US. But AV equipment is a non-continuous load, so I would use the full 1800 watts to calculate circuit capacity.

A 15 amp circuit should not be loaded beyond 80% regardless of the connected load.

And thankfully for you, all power bars are required to have over-current protection built in, whether it is a one time link fuse, or resettable over current device such as a breaker.

The only time a circuit can really be loaded to 100% is when it's a purley resistive load such as a base board heater.

Electronic equipment creates inductive currents that continuously flow through a circuit not being consumed as watts which actually load the circuit down not really doing anything.

As Brad wrote a circuit should not be continuously loaded at more than 80% of it's rated capacity. But the circuit breaker won't trip (theoretically) until the 100% 3 hour point is reached.

Yes, very true - depending on the ampacity of the inductive currents (generally very little), and the age/brand name of the circuit breaker.
Also, circuit breakers that have been tripped many times tend to become 'weak' and trip easier.

Kind of splitting hairs at that point - if your breaker isn't tripping at the moment you're probably fine and have no reason to worry about a potential fire :)

I would consult an electrician. If I were you, I would be trying to use at least another 15a circuit it you can get to one. If not, have one installed.

A 15 amp circuit should not be loaded beyond 80% regardless of the connected load.

My code book say OCPDs are to be sized for 100% noncontinuous load plus 125% contonuous load. What does yours say?

My code book say OCPDs are to be sized for 100% noncontinuous load plus 125% contonuous load. What does yours say?

I am working out of the CEC so I may be way out to lunch, but it states any load is to be considered a continuous load unless it can be shown that in normal operation it will not persist for a total of more than 1 hour in any two hour period. So if any of the equipment is on for more than an hour in a two hour period, is is considered a continuous load.

But as it has been stated if it hasn't tripped the power bar or breaker you are probably fine.

8-104 in the CEC makes it quite clear.

8-304 touches on the problem, considering the outlet is probably not fed from a dedicated circuit anyways.

I am working out of the CEC so I may be way out to lunch, but it states any load is to be considered a continuous load unless it can be shown that in normal operation it will not persist for a total of more than 1 hour in any two hour period. So if any of the equipment is on for more than an hour in a two hour period, is is considered a continuous load.

NEC defines it differently. NEC defines continuous to be at peak demand, uninterrupted, for three hours. AV equipment would not qualify, since it would not be at peak, even if it were on for that long.

NEC defines it differently. NEC defines continuous to be at peak demand, uninterrupted, for three hours. AV equipment would not qualify, since it would not be at peak, even if it were on for that long.

Is that a quote for the NEC...?

The only thing I can think of that could maintain "peak demand" for more than a second or two would be a heater. It would make more sense if stated "full load".

OP: You're not tripping your breaker so don't worry about possible fire issues. The 80% rule is for installation purposes, when sizing over current protection. That's not something a homeower needs to be concerned about on a day to day basis.

[QUOTE=smokinghot;16889607]Is that a quote for the NEC...?
QUOTE]

Here's a discussion of this:

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_sizing_circuit_breaker/

My code book say OCPDs are to be sized for 100% noncontinuous load plus 125% contonuous load. What does yours say?

It's saying the same thing but backwards.

15 Amps and 120 Volts is 1800 Watts, 80% is 1440 Watts.
A 1440 Watt continuous load, times 125% is the same 1800 Watts.

Is that a quote for the NEC...?

The only thing I can think of that could maintain "peak demand" for more than a second or two would be a heater. It would make more sense if stated "full load".

OP: You're not tripping your breaker so don't worry about possible fire issues. The 80% rule is for installation purposes, when sizing over current protection. That's not something a homeower needs to be concerned about on a day to day basis.

Yes "continuous" is from the NEC rules. Typically things like office overhead lights and some room or water heaters are continuous loads.

That part I was curious about was the term "peak demand". Which from what I read in ctviggen's isn't accurate. Which in my mind makes more sense.

boy, you guys really went nuts, thanks!
I think I'll get another surge protector in the next week and divvy the load up to another circuit just to be safe.

thanks again

James

I just came across this in a Sq. D circuit breaker manual.

Continuous Current Rating
The continuous current rating of a circuit breaker is the maximum current in amperes (dc or rms ac at
rated frequency) which a device will carry continuously without exceeding the specified allowable
temperature rise. Sometimes referred to as the ampere rating or handle rating of the circuit breaker,
the continuous current rating relates to the system current flow under normal conditions.
UL and CSA require that circuit breakers must be able to carry their continuous current rating
indefinitely at 40°C in free air in order to achieve a UL Listing/CSA Certification. The National Electrical
Code (NEC) and the Canadian Electrical Code (CEC) recognize that devices applied in end-use
equipment can be affected by heat build up during normal operating conditions. For this reason, the
codes require that circuit breakers be selected based on the characteristics of the load (particularly,
the portion of the load which will be on continuously for three hours or more at a time).

Interesting post speed skater.

I would not be considered a continuous load in my opinion. There will be points in the music/movie that you are watching/listening to will use more watts than the quiet scenes/sounds. This is what would make it classified as non-continuous.

As long as it is not a an old federal 15 amp breaker and it is not tripping, everything should be safe and sound.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, the breaker will hold in the "red zone" above 80 percent loaded capacity for an limited period of time, or maybe never be enough to trip it.

Breakers are designed to protect the wire, and in turn protect the equipment.
No need to worry in this case


Just my 2 cents

Interesting post speed skater.

Breakers are designed to protect the wire, and in turn protect the equipment.


Ah... not really.

How well do you think a 15amp breaker protects a device that has a rating of 1amp...?

In a resi application breakers are spec'd to protect the wire and the connecting device, eg: recepticle/switch. Protecting the equipment was not the concern of the NEC/CEC when the standard branch circuit specs were determined.

What I meant is if in the event the device/equipment draws some high current, then the breaker will trip, hopefully saving whatever is plugged into it. That is the idea of any electrical system.(So the overload condition doesn't burn down your house.)

Some equipment depending upon what it is will have separate fuses or ways to deal with power surges internally so it won't fry it. In general it would all depend on what type of device plugged into it whether it is toast or not.