Well, The prices for both of these units seem to be the same. I have heard from several people that the elite pioneer is the ferrari of plasma tvs. I know that the 6020 is not the elite model, but is it too the ferrari of plasmas. My dilemma here is whether or not I should opt for the 65 and compromise picture quality or opt for the 65 because it has the same picture quality of the pioneer. Btw, I will most likely not dish out the extra 400 bucks to get the tv "professionally" calibrated. I was just hoping some people could chime in and steer more towards the better option.
thanks in advance

Basically it's PQ vs Size. It comes down to what's important to you.

My personal preference is size, as long as the PQ is good, which the Panny is. "There's no replacement for displacement." :D

Picture quality will not be that noticeable unless your in a bat cave. Read the latest 54v review from the HDGuru- he rates it outstanding and it is a great read.

Size does matter and Panasonic is still in the picture business- Pioneer has exited.

Picture quality will not be that noticeable unless your in a bat cave. Read the latest 54v review from the HDGuru- he rates it outstanding and it is a great read.

Size does matter and Panasonic is still in the picture business- Pioneer has exited.

^?

If you listened to HDGuru, you'd be buying a new tv every time he reviewed one...because he's pretty much enamored with whatever is the lastest and greatest.

That guy is a joke compared to real professionals and I wouldn't put much stock in anything he writes.

That being said, the V10 is still an excellent choice, and 5 inches at that size is a considerable jump in screen area. Still though, I think you should do some more research before committing to either of them.

Pioneer's own 600M is BY FAR the best price to performance ratio of any tv on the market, and this is coming from a 5020 owner. Do yourself a favor and check out the Pio comparison thread if you haven't already.

Hey guys thanks for the replies.
I have been researching these plasmas for weeks so I guess it is time to ultimately pull the trigger. it looks like the picture size differential is much more substantial than that of the picture quality. Now i guess it is time to wait and see when one of these panasonics can actually be purchased.
thanks

Picture quality will not be that noticeable unless your in a bat cave..Thll that to those who had the opportunity to see and v10 next to a 500M... fully calibrated in multiple lighting conditions last month.

Man, the more research I do into the 6020 and 600m the more confused i get. I just can't make up my mind here at all!!! ughh. This tv is going to only be used at night so the deep blacks of the pioneer are noteworthy, but at the same time I am sitting around 13ft back so I am afraid the 60in tv might look small (I have a 65 tube right now)... It seems I am plagued with paralysis by analysis

Why are you sitting that far back from the TV? thats to far. i have a elite 60" and i sit 8 feet back.

My thoughts. unless your doing a side by side watch you'll not no any difference.

iv owned a Vizio 50, mag?? 50" and now a panny 50". not side by side and they all kicked azz.

im waiting on that 65" panny.

My thoughts. unless your doing a side by side watch you'll not [notice] any difference.I have to disagree - i don't need to do a side-by-side to see the Kuro's superiority. I've spent some quality time with my buddy's Kuro (i even set it up for him) and all my familiar SD and HD channels look better at his house then they do on my G10 at my house. A V10 would only be slightly better than my G10 if at all and i'm confident that the Kuro still looks better. Considerably better actually - it looks more natural and has better colors, blacks, processing, and more depth. I love my G10 but it i do get some remorse when i get home from his house.

Ok one more question for you guys. Would you say that the kuro 6020fd still outperforms the panny 65v10 when both are not calibrated? and does 200 bucks for calibration make a difference in pq?
thanks

Quality VS Quantiny as always ;) Both are excellent sets. The Pioneer has the better over all picture quality but the Panasonic is [17.6% larger].

65 inch 16:9 Set 60 inch 16:9 Set
4:3 (1.33:1) NTSC mode [17.6% larger] 4:3 (1.33:1) NTSC mode
Your viewing area is 42.5 in(w) x 31.9 in(h)
Total viewing area is 1355.75 sq in.
This is the equivalent of a 53.1 inch 4:3 TV
Your viewing area is 39.2 in(w) x 29.4 in(h)
Total viewing area is 1152.48 sq in.
This is the equivalent of a 49.0 inch 4:3 TV

16:9 (1.78:1) native mode [17.6% larger] 16:9 (1.78:1) native mode
Your viewing area is 56.7 in(w) x 31.9 in(h)
Total viewing area is 1808.73 sq in.
This utilizes the full display of the 16:9 TV
Your viewing area is 52.3 in(w) x 29.4 in(h)
Total viewing area is 1537.62 sq in.
This utilizes the full display of the 16:9 TV

16:9 (1.85:1) letterbox mode [17.2% larger] 16:9 (1.85:1) letterbox mode
Your viewing area is 56.7 in(w) x 30.6 in(h)
The diagonal size is 64.4 in
Total viewing area is 1735.02 sq in.
Total area is 73.7 sq in. (4.1%) smaller than 1.78:1
Your viewing area is 52.3 in(w) x 28.3 in(h)
The diagonal size is 59.5 in
Total viewing area is 1480.09 sq in.
Total area is 57.5 sq in. (3.7%) smaller than 1.78:1

16:9 (2.35:1) letterbox mode [17.2% larger] 16:9 (2.35:1) letterbox mode
Your viewing area is 56.7 in(w) x 24.1 in(h)
The diagonal size is 61.6 in
Total viewing area is 1366.47 sq in.
Total area is 442.3 sq in. (24.5%) smaller than 1.78:1
Your viewing area is 52.3 in(w) x 22.3 in(h)
The diagonal size is 56.9 in
Total viewing area is 1166.29 sq in.
Total area is 371.3 sq in. (24.1%) smaller than 1.78:1

A V10 would only be slightly better than my G10 if at all
That is not what I have been reading from those that have seen both side by side. They are saying the V10 is clearly somewhat better. It is difficult to quantify the difference without seeing them, of course.

Thll that to those who had the opportunity to see and v10 next to a 500M... fully calibrated in multiple lighting conditions last month.

^This

I don't know about you guys, but I tend to trust the large number of enthusiasts/professionals that saw all of these tvs fully calibrated under ideal conditions. Even if the V10 is significantly better than the G10 in some respects, neither have been able to match the superior tech of the 9gs--in particular the 500M or signature series monitors which have slightly deeper blacks than the rest of the lineup, elite or otherwise.

That brings me back to the original suggestion I had to the OP. Get the 600M! The 6020, not being an elite, can only be brought so close to perfect because of its gimped picture controls...that is without a full calibration. I had D-Nice calibrate my 5020 a couple months back and the improvement was significant to say the least. He even calibrated 2 pictures modes for me so I could have some options with the purecinema modes (read a bunch more about that if interested in the owner's threads).

A good calibrator will probably charge around $300, or at least that's what I've come to expect. While the 6020 is arguably better than the V10 out of the box, calibration brings it to near elite image quality and I definetely think it's worth the investment. However, the 600M, which is a monitor only (not that big of a deal these days), can come much closer to the ideal without calibration. That and it happens to have the deepest blacks of any tv on the market. Well, tied at least.

Oh! I almost forgot, it's also way cheaper than the 6020! Or the 65V10 for that matter I think. You could get the V10 and have a bit bigger screen...but then you'd probably regret not having the superior PQ of the Kuros. If you still can't decide, you should try and see both after calibration in order to get a better idea of what you're buying.

Hope you find what you're looking for:)

you guys all bring up good points. I neglected to mention that the tv will be going into a pre-existing built in cabinet (62in wide by 63in high). With that said, the panny will have to stick out, and the pioneer with fit in with space to go around. I bring this up because I am concerned about possible overheating. I know plasmas dissipate most of the heat off the front but could this tight space result in overheating for the panny?
I am liking the idea of the 600m as well. My only concern with the 600m is that it does not come with a tabletop stand, and I have no idea where to buy one or if there are any left on the market.
for some reason I was thinking that the 6020 trumps the 600m with regard to pq. I am starting to think that a pioneer will be a better fit more space and that might ultimately be the deciding factor.
Once again, thanks a lot for all the help. :)
Oh yeah I almost forgot to ask.. If i am planning to calibrate the pioneer do I have to still follow the 150hr break in procedure?

To the OP: See both of them for yourself, then make up your own mind.

Quality VS Quantiny as always ;) Both are excellent sets. The Pioneer has the better over all picture quality but the Panasonic is [17.6% larger].

Thanks for that breakdown. Makes me even more disappointed there will be no 10G Pioneers. I think the chances of a 65" Kuro where pretty high with them changing panels............but oh well. They'll have a huge OLED one day. The 65" V10 will have to do :D

To the OP: See both of them for yourself, then make up your own mind.

Yep, that the only way for someone to decide.

Well, The prices for both of these units seem to be the same. I have heard from several people that the elite pioneer is the ferrari of plasma tvs. I know that the 6020 is not the elite model, but is it too the ferrari of plasmas. My dilemma here is whether or not I should opt for the 65 and compromise picture quality or opt for the 65 because it has the same picture quality of the pioneer. Btw, I will most likely not dish out the extra 400 bucks to get the tv "professionally" calibrated. I was just hoping some people could chime in and steer more towards the better option.
thanks in advance


I'm a big fan of the Pioneer displays, but there is a noticeable difference in the 6020 vs a 600M or even a 151. You get good black levels on a 6020, but not the same type of overall PQ as the elites or monitors. My advice would be either get a 600M or get the 65V10.

I would hold out and get the 85 inch plasma from Panny, I just hope it has a Pioneer quality picture. j/k I would go for Pioneer at every chance but if your area can fit a bigger size, go for it. I myself am a PQ nut so I would choose that first and then get the biggest size with the best PQ. If you get your set calibrated you had better get the Pioneer because it will blow everything else away. :D

I think i am leaning heavily towards the 600m. Does anyone know where I can buy a tabletop stand for the 600m?

I think i am leaning heavily towards the 600m. Does anyone know where I can buy a tabletop stand for the 600m?

Set up an email alert for ebay, that would probably be the best way to get a good deal. Act quick on it though.

The 600m stand from Pioneer obviously works, and I think the 151 works with no mods, but they are like 400 bucks new. Check out the 6020 stand thread below, shows how to mod the stand. Like I said, you gotta get a stand (which model) to figure out what to do with it, I would just go with the best deal.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16775444

That is not what I have been reading from those that have seen both side by side. They are saying the V10 is clearly somewhat better. It is difficult to quantify the difference without seeing them, of course.

Better how? The Pioneer does better in a dark enviornment, bright enviornment, etc.

Has greater contrast

Greater color accuracy.

Capable of what is considered normal light output.

Better processing.

Also, by saying "somewhat" and "clearly better", in the same sentence is quite the oxymoron.

I'm a big fan of the Pioneer displays, but there is a noticeable difference in the 6020 vs a 600M or even a 151.
Chad is here calibrating another 55LG90, he put the screen to all black, you can not even tell the unit is on :eek: . Chad says the LG is better in ways over the Kuro ( straight on viewing and well lit rooms )and the Kuro is better in other ways ( off angle viewing and dark rooms ). I guess we have a tie, lol. wow.

Yeah we know how local dimming displays work Chris. Throw up an actual low level pluge, and watch those black levels spill over.

As far as having advantages, we all know what those are.

Brighter, better anti-glare, and that is about it.

I neglected to mention that the tv will be going into a pre-existing built in cabinet (62in wide by 63in high). With that said, the panny will have to stick out, and the pioneer with fit in with space to go around.

FWIW . . .

If your cabinet width is indeed 62" wide (inside dimension), then the 65" V10 will BARELY fit. According to Panasonic's just released owner's manual, the TC-P65V10 is exactly 61.9" wide.

A V10 would only be slightly better than my G10

That is not what I have been reading from those that have seen both side by side. They are saying the V10 is clearly somewhat better. It is difficult to quantify the difference without seeing them, of course.

Better how? The Pioneer does better in a dark enviornment, bright enviornment, etc.

Has greater contrast

Greater color accuracy.

Capable of what is considered normal light output.

Better processing.

Also, by saying "somewhat" and "clearly better", in the same sentence is quite the oxymoron.
Apparently, you didn't read the quoted phrase to which I was replying. (Quoted again above.)

I also disagree that my choice of words is an 'oxymoron', let alone 'quite so'.

Several primary definitions for 'somewhat' are like this, 'To some extent or degree'.

IOW, 'Somewhat' is a vague extent of difference. I typically use 'somewhat' to mean 'moderate' or 'moderately little', (but it can mean 'little', as well).

'Clear', in this case, means, 'Easily perceptible to the eye or ear; distinct'.

These differences can still be distinct, especially to an AVS reader.;):D

Oh, I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for saything this, but I have the 5020 in my bedroom an the Panny 58" 850U in my living room. I honestly have to say that at times I enjoy the picture quality of the Panny better. To me, it has much more depth, than the 5020. It has a richer picture than the 5020. At times, my 5020 though an amazing picture looks very flat. It's very hard to explain. The only 2 movies I say are much better on the Kuro is 2001 A Space Odyssey, and Sin City. Black really stand out with those movies. But when it comes to animation, it isn't even close. The Panny is so much better. Now, I'm sure the Elite is a different story, but the lack of control settings really sucks on the 5020. If you like to play with your settings, don't get the 6020. If it were the 60" Elite, well, I'd say go for the Kuro. And from what I have heard that price for the 65" V10 is way under 4,000.00 That is a steal.

I've read nothing but fantastic things about the V10 series. Both are fantastic TV's.

I have a thread comparing the 2 TV's if anyone is interested, PM me.

Chad is here calibrating another 55LG90, he put the screen to all black, you can not even tell the unit is on :eek: . Chad says the LG is better in ways over the Kuro ( straight on viewing and well lit rooms )and the Kuro is better in other ways ( off angle viewing and dark rooms ). I guess we have a tie, lol. wow.

Here is the problem with what is being reported. All of sudden there are all these "dubious" contenders for the Kuro displays...but all they ever do is get close to or equal the black levels....and these "so called" contenders turn in to pretenders when "overall" performance is considered. Off axis viewing and buzzing and a laundry list of other problems keep these so called "contenders" from snatching the crown from Pioneer. You can enter a shootout and do well in the measured parameters, but what about in real world viewing in a residential environment. What about the reliability of some of these "contenders"....I'll pass on these "calibration kings"...

Yes Toyotas are better in some ways than a Porsche, but I'll take the Porsche.

but the lack of control settings really sucks on the 5020.

Why not get ControlCAL and unlock those settings?

Your 5020 is capable of matching if not trouncing your 850 in pretty much every category of PQ. It's mainly a matter of getting at the proper controls.

Well, I pulled the trigger on a 600m. I am hoping it lives up to all the hype. Thanks a lot guys for all of your input :)

Why not get ControlCAL and unlock those settings?

Your 5020 is capable of matching if not trouncing your 850 in pretty much every category of PQ. It's mainly a matter of getting at the proper controls.


Can I do this or do I need a calibrator to do it?

Can I do this or do I need a calibrator to do it?

You can do it yourself, but it still will not be as accurate as have a pro do it with his equipment.

It's definitely worth doing yourself if you don't want to shell out the money for a pro-calibration. It's not difficult if you're at least somewhat PC savvy.

You're obviously not going to acheive the results that a pro-calibrator would, but you can certainly make significant improvements to your picture.

I'm waiting for 65" V10. I'd like to get a calibrator to calibrate the TV after completing the burn-in period (about 150 hours). The fact is that a 65" is 5" Larger than the largest TV that pioneer has to offer. The V10 picture quality is not terribly different from Pioneer's best either. If you like to get the best 65" TV, V10 is the best.

Chad is here calibrating another 55LG90, he put the screen to all black, you can not even tell the unit is on :eek: . Chad says the LG is better in ways over the Kuro ( straight on viewing and well lit rooms )and the Kuro is better in other ways ( off angle viewing and dark rooms ). I guess we have a tie, lol. wow.

How is this a useful comparison? Doesn't the LG just turn off the backlight on an all black screen?

It's definitely worth doing yourself if you don't want to shell out the money for a pro-calibration. It's not difficult if you're at least somewhat PC savvy.

You're obviously not going to acheive the results that a pro-calibrator would, but you can certainly make significant improvements to your picture.

Thank you. I am a IT director so I am definitely PC savy. However, like you said, It won't be as good as what a calibrator would do.

Thank you. I am a IT director so I am definitely PC savy. However, like you said, It won't be as good as what a calibrator would do.


Even without meters you'll still be able to make it look better than the 850. I can help with ControlCal if you need.

Well although Decelerate seems to have made his choice and I hope he posts with his impressions

I went to BB/ Magnolia today and saw the 151FD playing a movie (they also had a 111 setup playing the game) and I must say they did stand out. I actually went down there to see what the 850U (65") looked like and they had it on the floor but not even hooked up or on. After much movement by 3 (three) employees and 15 mins of time they got the set on and got the Steelers/Cards game that was on this evening. I'll say the the Elite's did have a nice picture and even my wife agreed that it was probably the best in the bunch on display. I thought the Pioneer rants and raves were hype but at least looking at all those sets in the Magnolia section that had the game on, the Elites did stand out with a deeper black and vibrant picture.

I had seen them before and did notice them the last time in June but I was still in the hunt to find a place that had the Panny's to see what and if I could see a difference.

I AM in the market as well and was trying to track down an 800 or 850 but after finally seeing it and realizing it's not all that I am back to the drawing board. I am curious now how the 65V10 looks and will attempt to do a HtH to see if 5" is worth it

I have a thread comparing the 2 TV's if anyone is interested, PM me.

Tried to PM you; no go. Can you send me the link, please? I am in similar boat, except I am looking at 54V10 and 50" 5020.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16953772#post16953772

Thanks.

they got the set on and got the Steelers/Cards game that was on this evening. I thought the Pioneer rants and raves were hype but at least looking at all those sets in the Magnolia section that had the game on, the Elites did stand out with a deeper black and vibrant picture.

Yea, too vibrant. As a avid football watcher, I never liked the Pioneer plasmas because they all had a tendency to show bright, "electric" green grass on the football field that was just unnatural looking.

So....

on my way to picking some speakers @ UE (Ultimate Electronics) today, I ran in and went a Magnolia/BB in route. Lemme tell ya I'm in AZ and it's been difficult to find a place with V10s @all let alone a 50V10 (chime in if YOU all know where a 58 or 65V10 is hanging out here)

They had a 50V10 and 151FD on the wall and I'll admit it was hard to tell a strong difference.

The Elite had a slightly darker blacks in their BB demo but thats the BB demo (which the sports part SUCK BTW)but it's not like the Panny was that bad AT ALL. Buylongterm and easycruise may have a point. I mean don't get me wrong if price was equal I think I would still have to give a slight nod to the Elite but IF those were the best settings for both sets the the Panny was well with the Elite. The BB guy could not confirm whether or when they would get the 58V10 or 65V10. So when I got my speakers @ UE and asked the guys there if they could have a date. They said 8/21 to order and I could have the set by 8/28.

I am salivating....still I should do a HtH and wait till they put em on the wall or side by side. IF the 50V10 is the same TV though I must say it was NOT bad at all.

My $0.02

When I went to the big city to look at tv's I was not impressed with Pioneer. One 60 inch looked bad, 1 I couldn't tell. They had a 50" that looked great, but that was compared to the larger sizes of other brands, and smaller displays usually look better up close. 3 Pioneers were broken. (skipping, black and white) It couldn't have been the feed as this was in three different stores, and all the other tv's were looking fine. Plus the one thing I really remember was that the white was not white, it was grey. So obviously they have a great filter on their screen to block light and make the blacks blacker. Normally I would just buy the "best" and be done with it. But I was not impressed.

Been awhile since I have posted, but was out looking at Magnolia/BB last weekend, in the market for a plasma for a new place.

The 65V10 was set up (in this particular Magnolia in Reno) right next to a 151 Elite. They were showing "Night at the Musuem" on blu-ray on both sets in low light, on sets that looked like they had been well set up (but don't know if they were ISF'd or otherwise calibrated). The pictures on both were simply stunning. If I really (and I mean really) tried, I could slightly detect a tiny bit more shadow detail in dark scenes on the Elite, but they were so close, and so great, it was completely minimal in my view. And the Panny was $2500 cheaper and 5" larger diagonally. Ended up buying the Panny.

I also own a Pro-FHD1, and love it. I am a Pioneer Elite fan big time, and it's clear that black levels at 1080P have come a good distance since I bought the Pro-FHD1 3 years ago. That said, in my view Panasonic really has something with the picture quality, size and price point in the 65V10.

I am looking at buying a 6020 today......but I am having trouble ruling out the V10.

My viewing distance is 10 ft so it might be nice to have the extra 5 inches. (May be able to get it to 9 ft with wife approval)

There are lots of windows in the room but no direct sunlight during my viewing hours. Does either of these sets have superior anti reflection coating?

Just for your information my current set is a 5070hd and I have really loved it.

I am worried about potential inferior pq on the panny but then again maybe I would never know. I have no way to do a side by side comparison. So I would appreciate opinions on the pq differences. I will probably do my own calibration based on info from this site.

P.S. The only gripe with my 5070hd is the buzzing from the back of the panel. Is there buzzing on these either of these sets?

Unless you can find the 6020 for $2200 or something like that ... get the KRP-600M, or the PRO-151FD.

Yes, there's still some buzz. Might be a little less than what I hear from my 6070.

60" is terrific from 9'/10'. No need to even question that.

Well, BB is running a 6020/BD combo for a reasonable price right now through magnolia. I looked at the krp600m, but I need a stand and after paying $400 it is the same price as the 6020. I had not looked at the 151 bc I thought it was too expensive.

Well, BB is running a 6020/BD combo for a reasonable price right now through magnolia. I looked at the krp600m, but I need a stand and after paying $400 it is the same price as the 6020. I had not looked at the 151 bc I thought it was too expensive.

They'd been running a big deal on the 151 too. Some reported they were at the same price as the 6020, but perhaps no Blu Ray.

Also you can do better then $400 on the stand if you find all the compatible 60" stands and wait for one to pop up on eBay. For instance while it raises the TV up higher then the standard, I'm actually using a 6020 stand on my KRP-600M, and it cost about $100 shipped via eBay. Some have found even better deals. Having the TV a bit higher lets me place my center channel on the stand.

The point is with the KRP you get basically the equivalent of a signature monitor.

You get pure mode, you get the advanced AR filter, you get the thinner panel, you get far more tweaks and adjustments, and the option to open up the ISF settings and hence the ability to get the best possible picture quality.

The major difference is you'd lose the 6020's tuner, the media player capability, and the input selection is different ... but the 151 has all of that.

Thanks for the info. I went ahead with the 6020 even though I would rather have the elite. It would have been about $700 more. Worth it for some people but I had to draw the line somewhere. Now I am going to do my best to combat buyers remorse and enjoy what I have.

What kind of warranty should I get if any? The BB service plan is north of $500. Should I consider cps or mack? Or none at all?

What kind of warranty should I get if any? The BB service plan is north of $500. Should I consider cps or mack? Or none at all?

Squaretrade is another option.

With something like the Mack warranty you have nearly 9 months to decide, but it's just a personal risk decision. You can pay now, or if something goes wrong you can pay later to have the TV serviced or worst case replaced. On big ticket items, I kind of like the assurance that I'll get my moneys worth out of the product for at least 5yrs.

Best Buy used to say that if anything went wrong, they'd just give you your money back and let you buy whatever you want. Their warranty might even be worth it if that was actually the case - but I got no end of hassle the one time I tried to hold them to what I was promised.

Thanks for the info. I went ahead with the 6020 even though I would rather have the elite. It would have been about $700 more. Worth it for some people but I had to draw the line somewhere. Now I am going to do my best to combat buyers remorse and enjoy what I have.

What kind of warranty should I get if any? The BB service plan is north of $500. Should I consider cps or mack? Or none at all?

No need for remorse, you now own a fantastic display. :)

The 600m monitor is a better value but only if you value it's adjustability more than certain physical features. See my post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16778432#post16778432).

I have a 6020 for instance and I would not exchange it for a monitor for my own usage patterns.

The monitors compared to the XX20 TV's do not come with:


-A stand (can purcahse extra)
-Speakers (can purchase extra)
-HMG (it does have WCS=Web Control System instead)
-No TV tuner
-Lacks a few connections esp. 2 HDMI inputs vs. 4 on the XX20,
-no USB or S-Video and missing a few audio connections such as the subwoofer output jack


Elite's are the cream of the crop no doubt but if you do your homework on the XX20 owner's thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1034208)and also check this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1045175)you'll find a suprising amount of adjustability even in the non-elite models. No regrets, enjoy.