Hi All,

I was just wondering what we can expect from both Plasma & LCD's in 2010 both in terms of performance & features as well as aesthetics seeing as currently "Thin Is In"!

Can we expect say Panasonic to provide models that match or better the outgoing Pioneer Kuro's? Will Samsung and LG considerably close the gap as well or will they offer less of a range seeing as they seem to concentrate so much on LCD?

On the LCD side, it is hard to see how Samsung (for example) will aesthetically better their current Edge LED sets - I wonder what they will offer to top that? What about features - what can we expect in terms of better or more integrated features? I know Panasonic wishes to introduce 3D by next year but I just cannot see that happening for some reason! Finally with the current recession, will brands play it safe do you think and just offer tweaked up versions of this years models in order to save R&D costs or will they push the boundaries to offer much better performance in order to boost sales and make us part with our cash?


Bazzy!

1. Improved Edge LED system with backlight scanning
2. Edge LED with Direct-LED attributes
3. Automatic resolution detection (Samsung)
4. Second Gen Neo-PDP with infinite blacks
5. Panasonic's Neo-LCD with IPS-Pro panel with Direct LED system

Next year, the spot light will be on black levels and it's about time too.

PS: We may even see a new PVA and MVA mode.


PPS: After attending the Samsung technical demo in London, I get the feeling they are not biggest fans of Direct LED. They much prefer the edge led approach as it retains maximum shadow details

Infinity blacks would be nice. The greatest news since colour-tv in my opinion...:D

Forget about PDP and LCD in '10 and beyond:

0.) Larger OLED panels that continue to have absolute black!


:D :D :D

Forget about PDP and LCD in '10 and beyond:

0.) Larger OLED panels that continue to have absolute black!


:D :D :D

Hi,

I really do not think we will have affordable OLEDS for a few years yet!


Bazzy!

Or a one that doesn't suffer from uneven decay

I am however waiting for F-LCD ^-^


PS: Affordable OLED is only possible via printing. So you may have to wait until 2014

PPS: Printing semi-functioning circuit board should also be possible by then.

Forget about PDP and LCD in '10 and beyond:

0.) Larger OLED panels that continue to have absolute black!


:D :D :D

IMO you have another 2-3 yrs before you see the first 50 OLED. (LG already delayed thier 37 till next yr)

Then you have about 5-7 before you get decent life span and affordability.

Again imo Look for a 7-10 yr range before you see a 3k 50+ inch OLED.

I would say 5 yr for a 5k OLED 50 inch.

Sad to think 2014-2016. Judging by past technologies over my lifetime I say these numbers are fairly accurate.

I'm not ready to jump to a projector for several reasons, so I'd really like to see a $4k 70" LCD/plasma somewhat soon. Lotta reasons there too, why I probably won't, but I'd like one nonetheless. Heck, we can't even seem to get a handful of 60 and 65's.

James

Tech companies are definitely not likely to 'cut back on R&D'. In this market, if you don't keep up the pace, you get killed. The implementation of those new developments in the marketplace, however, is a whole different ball of yarn. 2010 is likely to be a year of frustration, hearing a lot about a breakthrough here, and a jaw-dropping prototype demostration there, but never a good answer to 'when can I buy it?'.

The companies are likely to try and capitalize on existing techs/production lines to the hilt, in an effort to saturate the market with current offerings before starting to roll out the next big thing. Black levels on present day LCDs might be turning videophile stomachs, but you can rest assured that mass consumer is waiting for a better price, not a better black.

Price is no longer a factor

LCDs and plasmas are extremity cheap these days.

Now manufactures are capitalizing on factors such as motion, blacks, efficiency and design.

San Francisco » Having been a step behind in the race to pipe entertainment from the Internet to TV screens, struggling video rental-chain Blockbuster Inc. is counting on a new partnership with Samsung Electronics America Inc. to regain ground on rival Netflix Inc.

In an alliance announced last week, Samsung's next generation of high-definition TVs will include a built-in feature that will enable people to rent the latest DVD releases from Blockbuster with the press of a button on the remote control.

The Blockbuster rentals, expected to be priced from $1.99 to $3.99 apiece for a 24-hour viewing opportunity, will be piped over high-speed Internet connections. Samsung's HDTVs will begin offering Blockbuster's on-demand service this fall.

The relationship is a coup for Dallas-based Blockbuster because Samsung is the world's largest manufacturer of flat-panel TVs. Blockbuster's on-demand rental service also will be accessible through software installed on Samsung's Blu-ray DVD players and home theater systems -- devices that already offer Netflix's own Internet streaming service.

http://www.sltrib.com/technology/ci_12876325

Price is no longer a factor

LCDs and plasmas are extremity cheap these days.

Now manufactures are capitalizing on factors such as motion, blacks, efficiency and design.

Hi,

Interesting! Do you think/Feel that Panasonic (for example) will bring out sets that:

1) Equal or better the G9 Kuros' for performance?

2) Still be behind

3) Exceed the G9 Kuro's in all areas except for black levels & possibly SD performance?


Bazzy!

The second generation Neo-PDP is expected to surpass or match (2nd gen) Kuro's performance in all department.

I believe the current gen Neo-PDP is on par with the first-gen Kuro

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-txp42g10b-txp42g15b-20090307138.htm


PS: Panasonic's SD processing took two steps back this year (something to do with the de-interlacing and scaling algorithm). Hopefully it'll be fixed next year. In the future, they should start using all-in-one programmable video processor.

NeoPDPeco should be something special for larger screen needs.

OLED will hit monitor sizes.

S-PVA CCFL static contrast will exceed 1st GEN kuro.

PPS: After attending the Samsung technical demo in London, I get the feeling they are not biggest fans of Direct LED. They much prefer the edge led approach as it retains maximum shadow details

Well, in the realm of shadow detail, Samsung needs as much helps as they can get. They crush blacks worse than almost anyone.

That tried increase the number of LED, but it amplified the issue of haloing even further

I get the feeling they are not biggest fans of Direct LED. They much prefer the edge led approach as it retains maximum shadow details

That tried increase the number of LED, but it amplified the issue of haloing even further

It's actually just the opposite. If you are going to do any dimming to the picture, direct led is superior. Larger number of zones decreases haloing.

In theory yes, but not in practice. In order to eliminate halos, the numbers of LEDs have to increase substantially. The LEDs also have to be confined within a pocket of reflective casing to eliminate cross contamination. And there are other issues with the diffuser.

It's just not worth the effort (not to mention the cost)


PS: You may want to read this

http://www.displayblog.com/2009/02/27/edge-lit-led-backlight-with-local-dimming-eta-2010/

In theory yes, but not in practice. In order to eliminate halos, the numbers of LEDs have to increase substantially.

The direct LED models already have enough number of LEDs, you just need to increase number of controllable zones. Local dimmed EDGE LCDs will be almost as useless as current "one zone" models. The main difference should be darker black bars.

I've seen their current system with the diffuser removed, and it's not enough to eliminate halos.


As for the Edge-LCD, I don't think they are referring to disabling the LED to obtain pure blacks.

It may have something to do with the LCD mode and the Light Guide Plate (LGP). Personally, I would love to see a new PVA mode or something completely different.

I want beyond bezel matching black levels so the bezels will have to keep up. :D

I've seen their current system with the diffuser removed, and it's not enough to eliminate halos.

It may have something to do with the LCD mode and the Light Guide Plate (LGP). Personally, I would love to see a new PVA mode or something completely different.

So basically you haven't seen anything? Samsung has new LCD mode called Blue Phase, ETA 2011.

Blue Phase LCD may not enter the market at all

I'm actually looking forward to F-LCD, which is far more promising and should be available soon.

What benefits does F-LCD have? Isn't it more useful for electronic paper-type devices?

It has ultra high-seed pixel transition time, which can be coupled with backlight scanning to eliminate motion blur for good.

It's also immune to IR and 'burn-in'.

As for black level, I'm not sure.

The second generation Neo-PDP is expected to surpass or match (2nd gen) Kuro's performance in all department.

Hi Neilo!

You certainly seem to be "In the Know"! Can you elaborate some more on what we can expect both in terms of performance and features from the Panasonic 2nd Gen Neo-PDP's? Will next years Panny's all be all thin as well?

Bazzy!

That I can't answer. But Panasonic is aiming to reduce the depth and and the size of the driving driving circuitry. The 2G Neo-PDP will also be more energy efficient than the current version.

PS: Slim displays benefits all, which is one of the prime driving forces (along with design).

That I can't answer.

But Panasonic is aiming to reduce the size as it benefits all. The 2G Neo-PDP will also be more energy efficient than the current version.

PS: Slim displays benefits all, which is one of the prime driving forces (along with design).

Are you the same Nielo from hdtvtest.co.uk? If so awesome reviews man, good to see you on AVS :)

It has ultra high-seed pixel transition time, which can be coupled with backlight scanning to eliminate motion blur for good.

Doesn't seem to be anything to brag about? It lacks crt like viewing angle, low cost manufacturing and better screen uniformity of blue phase.

Doesn't seem to be anything to brag about? It lacks crt like viewing angle, low cost manufacturing and better screen uniformity of blue phase.

F-LCD also has wider viewing angles and screen uniformity is governed by the reflector, diffuser etc.... Today's LCD could have above 90% uniformity if manufactures maintain strict quality control, which not possible due to demand vs cost.

Anyway, Blue Phase LCD is still in its infancy. If printable OLED becomes available before BP-LCD matures, it'll be in serious trouble.

Are you the same Nielo from hdtvtest.co.uk? If so awesome reviews man, good to see you on AVS :)

ya its me ^-^

F-LCD also has wider viewing angles and screen uniformity is governed by the reflector, diffuser etc.... Today's LCD could have above 90% uniformity if manufactures maintain strict quality control, which not possible due to demand vs cost.

F-LCD requires rubbing step like current LC modes which will lead to non-uniformity. It also seems to have problems with grayscales and requires dithering like PDPs. Don't know about viewing angles. The only recent FLCD prototype I could find was this:

http://www.ceatec.com/2008/pgm/images/products/544.jpg

"The FLCD is desirable for application in infrequently-rewritten displays such as electronic inventory tags, various kinds of meter displays, electronic books and calendars. (http://www.ceatec.com/2008/en/exhibition/list/detail.html?exh_id=E080395)"

The first prototype was design by Canon

http://www.mc2.chalmers.se/mc2/pl/lc/engelska/applications/canon1.html


And the first display was released by Canon also back in 1995

http://www.mc2.chalmers.se/mc2/pl/lc/engelska/applications/canon2.html

"Ferroelectric liquid crystals can be used in a broad range of applications, beginning from single-pixel light choppers and approaching large area HDTV screens"


ATM, FLCD (FLC) is no match for the current AM-LCD. But that may change as long as there's sustained interest.


The sad truth is, we will not see the full potential of LCD due to OLED.


As for uniformity you've mentioned: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a713716517

ATM, FLCD (FLC) is no match for the current AM-LCD. But that may change as long as there's sustained interest.

Those prototypes are 15+ years old and require dithering and/or field sequential color. TN, IPS and VA modes are much superior.

You've missed my point.

F-LCD research is decades ahead of BP.

The only BP display we saw is from Samsung, and it wasn't as impressive as their OLED.


PS: Back in 1995, there was no IPS or VA. There was only TN.

Or maybe F-LCD research has basically ended with the dawn of new technologies? Of course Blue Phase won't beat OLED, but it should issue some fundamental problems with current LCDs. Maybe the following link will explain why you aren't seeing a flood BP of prototypes:

[SID] Blue Phase: Samsung's 'Revolutionary' LCD Discussed (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080527/152422/)

IMO you have another 2-3 yrs before you see the first 50 OLED. (LG already delayed thier 37 till next yr)

Then you have about 5-7 before you get decent life span and affordability.

Again imo Look for a 7-10 yr range before you see a 3k 50+ inch OLED.

I would say 5 yr for a 5k OLED 50 inch.

Sad to think 2014-2016. Judging by past technologies over my lifetime I say these numbers are fairly accurate.

It all depends on how good the OLEDs look in the store. If they sell, manufacturers will quickly put their money into them.

Or maybe F-LCD research has basically ended with the dawn of new technologies? Of course Blue Phase won't beat OLED, but it should issue some fundamental problems with current LCDs. Maybe the following link will explain why you aren't seeing a flood BP of prototypes:

[SID] Blue Phase: Samsung's 'Revolutionary' LCD Discussed (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080527/152422/)


I know the story behind BP. It was one of the headlines of early 2008, but I can't vision a big future for it.

Anyone know about 2010 Sammy plasmas? Interested to see if they can get as deep blacks as the next gen pannys. The video processing is smoother and the colors are amazing, they're closing in.

That would be awesome as it will force Panasonic drop the price

It all depends on how good the OLEDs look in the store. If they sell, manufacturers will quickly put their money into them.

OLED is already under heavy investment

Anyone know about 2010 Sammy plasmas? Interested to see if they can get as deep blacks as the next gen pannys. The video processing is smoother and the colors are amazing, they're closing in.

Hi,

This years Sammy Plasma's are let down only by two things it seems - a very bad buzzing issue (probably due to poorly made components and/or bad QC) and poor blacks. If Samsung can drastically improve the black levels then next year they could very well at least match or better the G9 Kuro's on probably every area.

I really do not know what to think with next years Samsung Plasma's - as this years models all have black levels that are just about matching or are considerably behind LAST YEARS Panasonic models depending on which review one reads! It is so hard getting any info at all - usually these companies love to drip feed us information along the way till launch to keep us all interested and motivated! I do hope that both Samsung & LG offer 46" plasmas as well so one has more choice than just Panasonic!


Bazzy!

I wouldn't hold my breath for lcd's and panasonic/samsung plasmas to achieve infinite black levels anytime soon. I've heard this story before from both companies and guess what, they'd rather focus on adding newer useless features than perfecting their current televisions.

IMO, the panasonic 800u plasma was an amazing looking tv. The colors were right on. The only thing they needed to improve was getting their black levels to where they should be, and fixing the flickering.

Of course, panasonic did not only not fix the black levels, but made thx mode worse on their 2009 panels. Awesome. They did correct the flickering issue though, after releasing 3 other models after the 800u.

IMO, companies that feel the need to keep releasing new models with little, or in some cases, no improvement are not worth supporting. I mean how hard is it to produce a panel, and turn it on in the factory only to see that it flickers with 24 fps material. Unnacceptable.

Everyone is waiting for current companies to match 9g Kuros that came out over a year ago... Here's my suggestion, BUY A KURO (specifically an elite), and keep it for 5+ years until OLED becomes available. They now are selling for amazing prices and they are by far the classiest tv's on the market today.

I wouldn't hold my breath for lcd's and panasonic/samsung plasmas to achieve infinite black levels anytime soon. I've heard this story before from both companies and guess what, they'd rather focus on adding newer useless features than perfecting their current televisions.

IMO, the panasonic 800u plasma was an amazing looking tv. The colors were right on. The only thing they needed to improve was getting their black levels to where they should be, and fixing the flickering.

Of course, panasonic did not only not fix the black levels, but made thx mode worse on their 2009 panels. Awesome. They did correct the flickering issue though, after releasing 3 other models after the 800u.

IMO, companies that feel the need to keep releasing new models with little, or in some cases, no improvement are not worth supporting. I mean how hard is it to produce a panel, and turn it on in the factory only to see that it flickers with 24 fps material. Unnacceptable.

Everyone is waiting for current companies to match 9g Kuros that came out over a year ago... Here's my suggestion, BUY A KURO (specifically an elite), and keep it for 5+ years until OLED becomes available. They now are selling for amazing prices and they are by far the classiest tv's on the market today.

Hi,

Pretty much spot on there mate - brands are so pressured into competing for market share, things like form and fancy features with a huge dose of marketing takes precedence over perfecting PQ. The only real advantage Pioneer now has is in black levels which is miles ahead of anyone else. I do not think most companies are that bothered tbh as they feel that for the 99% of the buying public, they are more than good enough and they will not spend the millions extra required in R&D to get what they feel will be an incremental improvement for us that are in in the 1% of their customer profile - far better to come out with some marketing blurb instead is what they probably think!

The scary part is that the current Samsung Plasma's pretty much do everything as good if not better (so I have read!) than the Pioneer Kuro's except for black levels - That is why I am very curious what their strategy/capabilities will be next year with regards to black levels - they do not necessarily have to beat Pioneer's but if they do improve on them by a very respectable margin, then although the Pioneer's may still offer technically better blacks, in the real viewing scenario, it may be too marginal to notice!


Bazzy!

Its going to be awhile before any technology of significance comes out that will make me want a new TV.

So I would go to a price club and buy either a 58" Samsung plasma or a 55" Vizio or Samsung LCD to get me through this time.

2 year warranty with these clubs should help too.

Its rather simple right now.

panasonic has a time-line for their TVs for the next few years, im surprised no one has posted the chart. May not be accurate.

I did

I did

Hey Nielo!

What is the deal with HDTVTest? Is it operated full time anymore? So many around the world respect it's reviews so much but they are so very few and far between! I am really surprised that one of the best review sites in the world does not have greater exposure or investment? It takes months for reviews to come around (understandably as I think it is now run part time by enthusiasts?) and with so many HDTV models to compare on a regular basis, it is a shame that so many sets will never get tested!

Any plans to expand operations or review numbers/frequencies? I believe you use to have a donation system to cover the cost of TV's and then sold the TV's afterwards or gave them to charity? Can something like that de done again? Maybe you can even offer the sets to readers in competitions to entice people to donate and the chance to win a tv for a few bucks? We miss you guys greatly!


Bazzy!

HDTVTest is solely run by Vincent as far as I'm aware. He does all the work, which is why I volunteered to help.

He requests displays from various manufactures for me to review. So far, I reviewed three and I'm still in the learning curve.

I'm currently reviewing the Tosh 32RV635, which should be completed by end of the week.

PS: Thanks for the generous comments

Black levels on present day LCDs might be turning videophile stomachs, but you can rest assured that mass consumer is waiting for a better price, not a better black.


Simple, but a profound and accurate observation.:cool:

Of course, panasonic did not only not fix the black levels, but made thx mode worse on their 2009 panels. Awesome. They did correct the flickering issue though, after releasing 3 other models after the 800u.
So, don't use THX. OK, it takes some work, but if one is reading AVS, one probably can do so, with a little help from others.

The V series is the successor to the 800u/850u series. So, they go it right on the next generation's corresponding TV. It (and the Z) are the only TVs in the line to use 96 Hz.

I am very new to all this, I have a DLP samsung that is 2 years old and luckily was under extended warranty. For 8 months I have been trying ot get it fixed through the warranty co. and finally they are sending me a check for the replacment cost. I am looking to replace this one with another and was wondering about getting another DLP vs plama/ lcd and am looking for feedback.

I am very new to all this, I have a DLP samsung that is 2 years old and luckily was under extended warranty. For 8 months I have been trying ot get it fixed through the warranty co. and finally they are sending me a check for the replacment cost. I am looking to replace this one with another and was wondering about getting another DLP vs plama/ lcd and am looking for feedback.

Forget DLP. I've had several and plasmas and LCDs are much better. I've had a B650 LCD for a while and it definitely produces a nice picture but for video material if your room lighting is reasonable I'd get a plasma most specifically because plasma handles motion, viewing angles, screen uniformity, and black levels better than almost all LCDs.

The scary part is that the current Samsung Plasma's pretty much do everything as good if not better (so I have read!) than the Pioneer Kuro's except for black levels - That is why I am very curious what their strategy/capabilities will be next year with regards to black levels - they do not necessarily have to beat Pioneer's but if they do improve on them by a very respectable margin, then although the Pioneer's may still offer technically better blacks, in the real viewing scenario, it may be too marginal to notice!


Bazzy!

Um, where did you read that??

Will Panasonic be using a new, darker AR filter? Like the one they are currently using on the 54" Z1?

;16919299']Um, where did you read that??

Hi,

An assortment of sources - many reviews have stated (going from memory) that:

1) Colours are on par
2) Sharper PQ
3) Brighter PQ
4) Better SD Performance (based on AVForums review of the B650 and opinions contained therein)
5) Equal or Better Motion Handling
6) Better Black perception during bright & daylight viewing conditions (due to type of filter used)
7) Uses less juice and runs cooler
8) Less Noise on PQ

But:

9) Blacks Lag Considerably behind (0.05cd/m2- 0.12cd/m2)
10) Very Marginally Less Shadow Detail
11) Very Bad Buzzing Reported By Many Owners

Apart from that, the B850 is much thinner, lighter & has better connectivity and multimedia/networking options (although these are user features not related to PQ)

I myself have a G9 Kuro so have no axe to grind & no motive to elevate a Samsung but just reporting what I have read! The black levels are way behind the Kuro's by a very long way which is why I dismissed the Sammy as I watch a lot in the dark.


Bazzy!

An assortment of sources - many reviews have stated (going from memory) that:

1) Colours are on par
2) Sharper PQ
3) Brighter PQ
4) Better SD Performance (based on AVForums review of the B650 and opinions contained therein)
5) Equal or Better Motion Handling
6) Better Black perception during bright & daylight viewing conditions (due to type of filter used)
7) Uses less juice and runs cooler
8) Less Noise on PQ



Huh ?!? :eek::eek::eek:

We didn't read the same reviews !!!
And look at the shoot out where the V10, the B850 and the G9 were compared here...
The processing of the B850 is average (at best) and far far behind the one
of the Kuros.
It hasn't better motion handling (shoot out) and hasn't a sharper PQ (because inferior processing).

The colors are not on par, they are inferior (even if they are very good and superior to the V10).

Look at this review (one of the few serious review sites on the web)
The G9, V10 and B850 are sometimes compared in the review

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1245336433

The B850 is probably brighter, consumes less and thinner but that's it.
It is a strong competitor to the V10 but both are really behind the Kuro (unfortunately).
And i'm not a Kuro owner, but a future V10 owner...

Huh ?!? :eek::eek::eek:

We didn't read the same reviews !!!
And look at the shoot out where the V10, the B850 and the G9 were compared here...
The processing of the B850 is average (at best) and far far behind the one
of the Kuros.
It hasn't better motion handling (shoot out) and hasn't a sharper PQ (because inferior processing).

The colors are not on par, they are inferior (even if they are very good and superior to the V10).

Look at this review (one of the few serious review sites on the web)
The G9, V10 and B850 are sometimes compared in the review

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1245336433

The B850 is probably brighter, consumes less and thinner but that's it.
It is a strong competitor to the V10 but both are really behind the Kuro (unfortunately).
And i'm not a Kuro owner, but a future V10 owner...


Hi Lessard!

Well, I must admit I do not know of the Shoot Out test by Value Electronics - I was hoping they would have compiled a video report or something but I have read many pro & against threads as to the validity and fairness of the test and opinions were so flamed between camps that I just gave up on it not knowing where the truth lay and also fed up with the same crap that went around last time!

On AVForums UK test of the B650, they concluded that The Sammy's SD processing was excellent and probably much better than that of the Kuro's which really surprised me as the Kuro was untouchable in this regard by any brand and one of the main reasons I bought one!

Most TV's look good on HD as the main processing is geared towards taht element of sides - the challenge for me comes to how good it is with SD stuff.

As for the Sharpness & Brightness, I have read two reviews so far that state it is the sharpest & brightest Plasma they have seen to date & on the motion side of things, as it handles all 1080 lines as opposed to 900 lines like the Kuro, it is supposed to be as good if not better than the Kuro.

A couple of reviews also stated that the colours were definitely as good as the Kuros - apparently they are Samsung's strong points? I have read that flatpanels review in depth but there are a few others that have contradicted some of what they say - as many reviews tend to do!

I really wish HDTVTest.co.uk test the B850 as very few people have any issue with their findings and their reviews are quite in depth and not partial in anyway as they are independent & have to pay for sets usually out of their own pocket!

I do think there are serious QC issues with the Sammy though - the buzzing issue has caused Samsung to suspend sales in the UK apparently!


Bazzy!

Samsung should really update their remote ^-^

Bazzy/Lessard,

I think Bazzy is referring to the non-Elite 9G Kuros and Lessard is referring to the Elite 9G Kuros. I do know for sure that the non-Elite Kuros are not rated good for color accuracy while the Elite Kuros are noted as the best in color accuracy. You all might be talking apples to oranges here.

Bazzy/Lessard,

I think Bazzy is referring to the non-Elite 9G Kuros and Lessard is referring to the Elite 9G Kuros. I do know for sure that the non-Elite Kuros are not rated good for color accuracy while the Elite Kuros are noted as the best in color accuracy. You all might be talking apples to oranges here.

Hi,

Very good point and that may indeed have a bearing as we do not have any Elite models in the UK & Europe & most reviews I have read were from outside the USA. Our regular Kuros are sort of in between your Elite & Non-Elite models & then we have the KRP-A & KRP-M Reference Series!


Bazzy!

LG dropping out of the plasma game.

LG dropping out of the plasma game.

Hi,

Got any official info on this? A few months ago they made a statement confirming their commitment to the tech...


Bazzy!

Hi,

Got any official info on this? A few months ago they made a statement confirming their commitment to the tech...


Bazzy!
Just go to LG's website.

They still list plasmas.

blacks, viewing angle, and motion resolution alone are enough to choose a plasma over an LCD. Room lighting is all but a non issue with the newer screen coatings and, ironically, so many newer LCD's are actually worse in this regard anyway, with their glossy, glass-like screens.

I own the top/near top LCD (XBR) and the best plasma (Kuro).

The plasma displays a better image 98% of the time.

I'm certain 2010 will see LCD manu's continuing to devise band-aids for inherent problems of LCD tech...likely including even goofier looking-motion enhancement, and edge lit LED's that produce blacks that get "closer" to plasma, but simutaneously exploit the significantly less uniform LCD panel.

The average consumer meanwhile, will continue to get duped.

James

CCFL based VA mode LCDs can already achieve plasma level black (0.04cmd2) with a little help from backlight dimming.

However, if Panasonic keeps its promise, the blacks are going to jump to a point where standard mono-lit LCDs simply can't match.


Remember, next year is all about the blacks.

In regards to plasma
Pioneer set the benchmark for current plasma TVs with their G9 (aka the 2nd gen Kuro). Unfortunately though, with them not being in the HDTV business anymore, I guess it's up to Panasonic then to continue on the tradition.

We'll see what comes up :)

What about LCDs though? There doesn't seem much incentive to stick further with CCFL backlights for top-end LCDs as the shift to LED backlighting continues. Ultimately though, the plan seems to call for:

Top-end: Direct LED
Middle-end: Edgelit LED
Low-end: CCFL or HCFL

I guess that's the backlighting goals that LCD makers aim to achieve.

Panasonic will probably introduce some 120hz Plasma displays with HDMI 1.4. They will push a "3d" Blu-Ray format. The black levels will improve along with power consumption. It'll be a good year for Panasonic.

Rear Lit LED LCDs will increase in fill factor (more zones) and continue to be a high-end product.

Blue Phase is the most likely next big jump for LCD panels, but this won't be happening for awhile. The theory is that it will be cheaper to produce and offering wider viewing angles.

OLED will start to make its way into slightly increased sizes (small monitor and netbook), but affordable large sized TVs are probably many years away.

CCFL based VA mode LCDs can already achieve plasma level black (0.04cmd2) with a little help from backlight dimming.

However, if Panasonic keeps its promise, the blacks are going to jump to a point where standard mono-lit LCDs simply can't match.


Remember, next year is all about the blacks.

well va based ccfl backlight lcds should give those blacks even without any help from backlight dimming,i.e even when 99% of the screen is showing white color.

Hi Lessard!

Well, I must admit I do not know of the Shoot Out test by Value Electronics - I was hoping they would have compiled a video report or something but I have read many pro & against threads as to the validity and fairness of the test and opinions were so flamed between camps that I just gave up on it not knowing where the truth lay and also fed up with the same crap that went around last time!

On AVForums UK test of the B650, they concluded that The Sammy's SD processing was excellent and probably much better than that of the Kuro's which really surprised me as the Kuro was untouchable in this regard by any brand and one of the main reasons I bought one!

Most TV's look good on HD as the main processing is geared towards taht element of sides - the challenge for me comes to how good it is with SD stuff.

As for the Sharpness & Brightness, I have read two reviews so far that state it is the sharpest & brightest Plasma they have seen to date & on the motion side of things, as it handles all 1080 lines as opposed to 900 lines like the Kuro, it is supposed to be as good if not better than the Kuro.

A couple of reviews also stated that the colours were definitely as good as the Kuros - apparently they are Samsung's strong points? I have read that flatpanels review in depth but there are a few others that have contradicted some of what they say - as many reviews tend to do!

I really wish HDTVTest.co.uk test the B850 as very few people have any issue with their findings and their reviews are quite in depth and not partial in anyway as they are independent & have to pay for sets usually out of their own pocket!

I do think there are serious QC issues with the Sammy though - the buzzing issue has caused Samsung to suspend sales in the UK apparently!


Bazzy!

You can look at the results of the shoot out here:

http://www.*********************/images/pdf/VE%2009%20HD%20shoot%20out%20results%20of%20the%20attendees. pdf

There are 3 important columns (black, color and general).
The others 2 (peak white, and motion resolution) depend really on the conditions of the tests for me.

For the AV review well they were impressed by the deinterlacing but recognize a high end dvd player will do better for the scaling.

Look at this review (even if it's not a reference) :
http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2009/04/16/Samsung-PS50B650-50in-plasma-TV/p3
The PS50B650's standard definition pictures sadly don't impress as much as its HD one

I've never felt the 650/850 owners were so impressed by the sd processing by the way...

To finish look at the score of the av review of the B650 at the bottom:
http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Samsung-PS50B560-Plasma-HDTV-Review.html

Then at the score of the Krp500:
http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Pioneer-KRP-500A-Review.html

For me it's the review of Tom Huffman which really should be taken with a grain of salt.
Unfortunately even the reference sites and the experts contredict each other...
If the B850 was the new reference (except for blacks) it would have been much much more popular on this forum.

well va based ccfl backlight lcds should give those blacks even without any help from backlight dimming,i.e even when 99% of the screen is showing white color.

Actually they can't atm

At around 130cmd2, VA can produce ~0.7cmd2 blacks


The Toshiba I'm reviewing at the moment with S-PVA yield 0.08cmd2 @ 130cmd2 (white)

Actually they can't atm

At around 130cmd2, VA can produce ~0.7cmd2 blacks


The Toshiba I'm reviewing at the moment with S-PVA yield 0.08cmd2 @ 130cmd2 (white)

well in the review of samsung 40B7020 by vincent teoh ,he says the following "In [Game Mode] where auto-dimming is disabled by switching off [Dynamic Contrast], calibrated black level was 0.04 cd/m2, matching that measured on the CCFL-backlit LE40B650 LCD TV"

The B650 has undefeatable auto dimming, so does the B750.

For some reason, I didn't mention the value of black level during ANSI measurements.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=149393&d=1249398961

The B650 has undefeatable auto dimming, so does the B750.



but why does vincent say that auto dimming is disabled in game mode

blacks, viewing angle, and motion resolution alone are enough to choose a plasma over an LCD.

+1-2...
You forgot to mention the cons of plasma:
-ABL
-PWM Noise
-Flicker (reduced ONLY on NeoPDP and Premiere models)
-Phosphor Lag (reduces effective motion resolution)
-Uneven wear/IR for extended viewing of 4:3 content
-Only high-end Pioneer and Panasonic plasmas have better black level than most LCDs
-No matte screens plasmas exist for purchase (some LCDs use glossy screens)

So, don't forget there are pros and cons of each technology! :) Plasma displays are not a one size fits all technology - despite how much people on this forum want to believe. ;)

LCDs have far more disadvantage compared to PDP (not to mention panel lottery). At least with PDP, you know what kind of panel you're getting.

but why does vincent say that auto dimming is disabled in game mode

He posted the value of black in Movie Mode (not Game Mode)

LCDs have far more disadvantage compared to PDP (not to mention panel lottery). At least with PDP, you know what kind of panel you're getting.

Yes, LCDs typically have more cons... But for me, phosphor lag makes the pros of plasmas irrelevant (prohibiting purchase). The sourcing of panels varies from model to model, right?

yap

In most cases with LCD, one could never by sure of the panel mode.


PS: As for PT, I'm in the same boat as you ^-^

Yes, LCDs typically have more cons... But for me, phosphor lag makes the pros of plasmas irrelevant (prohibiting purchase). The sourcing of panels varies from model to model, right?Isn't it nice to have a choice! I don't want an LCD for my TV because of the poor off-axis picture quality. I've never had a problem with phosphor lag when watching a plasma.

but why does vincent say that auto dimming is disabled in game mode

If someone were to place black electrical tape over the sensor would that defeat it? :)

It's not based on LDR

It's based on the video content

However, if Panasonic keeps its promise, the blacks are going to jump to a point where standard mono-lit LCDs simply can't match.


Remember, next year is all about the blacks.I think you need to start asking Panasonic Engineering what is on tap for 2010 instead of Panasonic Marketing. Those two entities have different information regarding 13G Panasonics ;)

I think you need to start asking Panasonic Engineering what is on tap for 2010 instead of Panasonic Marketing. Those two entities have different information regarding 13G Panasonics ;)

Let me pull a Tom Huffman: can you be more specific?;)

Seriously; there is not much point in asking Panasonic Marketing for 2010 Plasma information, unless one's roses need a large heap of fertilizer.

What, if anything, can you disclose about what you are hearing from the technical side?

Let me pull a Tom Huffman: can you be more specific?;)

Seriously; there is not much point in asking Panasonic Marketing for 2010 Plasma information, unless one's roses need a large heap of fertilizer.

What, if anything, can you disclose about what you are hearing from the technical side?Lets just say there are some hurdles that have yet to be overcome to have a viable absolute 0fL PDP module.... especially if you want to stick in a less than 1" frame.

FYI... you have to be a master at "reading between the lines" when it comes to Panasonic Marketing. There is a reason why their roadmap Nielo TM posted has 2010- and not 2010.

FYI... you have to be a master at "reading between the lines" when it comes to Panasonic Marketing. There is a reason why their roadmap Nielo TM posted has 2010+ and not 2010.

It's actually 2010- or 2010 and beyond in plain English. Just take a closer look at the photo. ;)

It's actually 2010- or 2010 and beyond in plain English. Just take a closer look at the photo. ;)Actually Sampo, the + was a typo on my part. The post has been corrected. I would ask you to verify what I'm talking about, but Panasonic engineering doesn't like any division of Samsung :p

I think there might be even more "typos" on your posts. It's too bad the spell checker doesn't red flag misinformation. :D

It's too bad the spell checker doesn't red flag misinformation. :DSampo, you post this same comment every single year and in the end you always get your ass handed to you. Then you disappear for a few months... and reappear (in most cases with a new username) when something new is about to hit the market starting the ass handing cycle over again. Its getting old. Lets see what Panasonic demos at Cedia and Ceatec. Or would you like to wait for CES 2010?

They might show VX200 next month at CEDIA. Consumer range at CES.

Panasonic have kept their promise in regard to motion resolution, design and energy efficiency this year.


So they haven't given me any reason to doubt them.

Having said that, I'm still highly aggravated by the fact that they refuse to provide gamma, CMS and grayscale control for the UK market.

Panasonic have kept their promise in regard to motion resolution, design and energy efficiency this year.Everyone was doing this for 2009 (design should have never been added to your post as Panasonic has the worst cosmetic designs on the market.... Samsung has the best). Those items were nothing special.

So they haven't given me any reason to doubt them.Ok, explain "Infinite Black Panel" from a marketing....then engineering standpoint.

Having said that, I'm still highly aggravated by the fact that they refuse to provide gamma, CMS and grayscale control for the UK market.You might see these controls on future pro-line models... for all regions ;)

Ok, explain "Infinite Black Panel" from a marketing....then engineering standpoint.

That is an error by the marketing team. It's should've read (Infinite dynamic Range). But that that's misleading as once cannot perceive Infinite dynamic range.

However, without making ****** of ourselves, we can assume that mean blacks below the 0.00 level.

You might see these controls on future pro-line models... for all regions ;)

I believe it when I see it


However, it shouldn't be exclusive to high-end especially when Samsung and Toshiba offer such feature on low-ends.

I believe it when I see it


However, it shouldn't be exclusive to high-end especially when Samsung and Toshiba offer such feature on low-ends.

I agree, and especially since Panasonic does not provide very accurate RGB, or secondary colors, to begin with.

If they do not provide consumers with more extensive CMS controls in their 2010 models, they might be heading for a disaster.

In the USA, a lot of the sales numbers for 2009 have been inflated by the digital conversion deadline, which caused a sizable one time bump in sales. 2010 will be a different story. Sales will be harder to come by, and most of those in the market will be of the technically aware type.

If Panasonic does not provide a 2010 plasma line to appeal to those customers, then Samsung will capture the lion's share of the 2010 sales.

I can not understand why Panasonic is dragging their heels when it comes to providing a decent owner acessible CMS system. If they do not do so in the 2010 models, I think they will have left it to late.

Hi All,

Any ideas what Samsung & LG might have in store for us next year? Does anyone think their black levels will drastically improve on their Plasma lines? What are the chances of either or both of them bringing out 42" & 46" Full HD models?

I wonder if any company will violate Pioneer's Kuro tech (CE companies do this to each other quite regularly apparently!) and then draw what is a financially strapped Pioneer into a costly & very lengthy legal process that will run for years on end in the aim of finally then settling privately as is often the case? Now that Pioneer has withdrawn from the market, even though they own the tech, they would not have any claims for losing sales or profits anymore so even a win after all that time, hassle and expense would probably mean minimum compensation - maybe even less than all the legal and associated costs?


Bazzy!

I think you need to start asking Panasonic Engineering what is on tap for 2010 instead of Panasonic Marketing. Those two entities have different information regarding 13G Panasonics ;)

Well unfortunately I don't have any contact to these engineers ...
The interesting question is why the 5lm/W panels didn't hold their promises?
Are the 2009 neo pdps really 5lm/W panels?
The usual consumption didn't decrease so much ...

And the G13 will be interesting because they should include some tech from Pioneer panels.

Hi All,

Any ideas what Samsung & LG might have in store for us next year? Does anyone think their black levels will drastically improve on their Plasma lines? What are the chances of either or both of them bringing out 42" & 46" Full HD models?

I wonder if any company will violate Pioneer's Kuro tech (CE companies do this to each other quite regularly apparently!) and then draw what is a financially strapped Pioneer into a costly & very lengthy legal process that will run for years on end in the aim of finally then settling privately as is often the case? Now that Pioneer has withdrawn from the market, even though they own the tech, they would not have any claims for losing sales or profits anymore so even a win after all that time, hassle and expense would probably mean minimum compensation - maybe even less than all the legal and associated costs?


Bazzy!

I wouldn't count on LG, they never targeted the high end and they probably plan to withdraw from the plasma market.
The chances are thin for a 42" full hd from Samsung for a simple reason:
the cost of this kind of panel is higher than a lcd one.

On the opposite a 42" hd ready and a 50" full hd are cheaper than their lcd alternatives (that's why the plasma market still survives).

The interesting question is why the 5lm/W panels didn't hold their promises?
Are the 2009 neo pdps really 5lm/W panels?
The usual consumption didn't decrease so much .

Panasonic has said that 2008 models had ~3lm/w efficiency, so current models should have 5lm/w efficiency and next years models <8lm/w efficiency. They promised 1080 motion resolution, 30% energy reduction and 30% brighter images(compared to 2008 models).

Is there a chance that this years neo pdp's will incorporate the vx100/200 tech in regards to black level.

Also, is there a greater than 5lm/w efficiency for 2010 panasonics? I had thought it was such a big joint venture to hit 5 lumen that anything beyond would be a costly endeavor.

I thought 5 lumen tech was supposed to help with color accuracy. No?

Is there a chance that this years neo pdp's will incorporate the vx100/200 tech in regards to black level.

NEOPDPs have similar black level as 50VX100. 65VX100 uses double scan and this tech won't be used on smaller models. All models use "dynamic black layer". VX200 should be very similar to NEOPDP:eco.

Panasonic has said that 2008 models had ~3lm/w efficiency, so current models should have 5lm/w efficiency and next years models <8lm/w efficiency. They promised 1080 motion resolution, 30% energy reduction and 30% brighter images(compared to 2008 models).Compared to 2007 models ;)

All models use "dynamic black layer". VX200 should be very similar to NEOPDP:eco.If you are saying that all Panasonic modes use the same "dynamic black" layer as the 65VX100, you are incorrect.

The interesting question is why the 5lm/W panels didn't hold their promises?What promises did they not hold?
Are the 2009 neo pdps really 5lm/W panels?Yes.
The usual consumption didn't decrease so much ...Yes they did.

The G12 was an evolution, not a revolution like the first Kuro was.
I was expected more black/color improvements and a radical change from the G11.

For the usual consumption it's between -20% and -30% which is quite nice but again not a big change. I tend to believe the efficiency of the G11 was more in the 4lm/W region than the 3lm/W one ...

Panasonic has said that 2008 models had ~3lm/w efficiency, so current models should have 5lm/w efficiency and next years models <8lm/w efficiency. They promised 1080 motion resolution, 30% energy reduction and 30% brighter images(compared to 2008 models).

Well the 3lm/W is more a guess by looking at the consumption evolution, right?
Unfortunately they never communicate on this before the neo-pdp

Compared to 2007 models ;)

It was half the consumption for the same brightness or twice the brightness for the same consumption compared to 2007 models, I'm quite sure about this ;)

Well the 3lm/W is more a guess by looking at the consumption evolution, right?
Unfortunately they never communicate on this before the neo-pdp

I read the 3lm/w from the following article:

[FPDI] Panasonic Draws Roadmap for PDP (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20081104/160666/)

It was half the consumption for the same brightness or twice the brightness for the same consumption compared to 2007 models, I'm quite sure about this ;)

Correct.

Compared to 2007 models

Anyone can listen to the 30% comment here (http://uk.cinenow.com/videos/2012-panasonic-new-x1-1080p-series-z1-lcd-screens-2009). Time 1:08.

Hi All,

It will be interesting to see if Panasonic feel the need to produce super thin plasmas like the Samsung B850 - like it or nor Sammy & LG are master of design & product appeal compared to Panasonic whose sets have to be the most consistently drab, mundane and most boring sets year after imho. I really hope they get a new design team in but I won't bet on it!

As for next years Panny black levels, I really do not know what to think - reading between the lines as best I can from Pioneer statements, & purely from a gut feeling, I believe Pioneer has done a deal with someone (most likely Panasonic) for some or all of it's Kuro Tech) and therefore we may see sets from Panasonic that surpass the G9 Kuros.

If not, then I still cannot see Panasonic coming close to the G9 Kuro black levels in 2010 tbh - this years NEO-PDP promised massive improvements on black levels which proved to be only incrementally better over the previous years models and way behind the G9 Kuros. Next year (if without Pioneer's tech) then although they will be better, I believe again, they will only be marginally so over the 2009 models.


Bazzy!

It was half the consumption for the same brightness or twice the brightness for the same consumption compared to 2007 models, I'm quite sure about this ;)Correct.

NEOPDPs have similar black level as 50VX100. 65VX100 uses double scan and this tech won't be used on smaller models. All models use "dynamic black layer". VX200 should be very similar to NEOPDP:eco.

Can you divulge more info on the nature of NeoPDP eco? The only official statements I've seen from Panny were infinity:1 contrast and that it would contain some Kuro tech. Have any plans changed?

Also, if Panasonic substantially improves black levels next year, will Samsung keep up?

That's the latest scoop. The panel has been in development since 2008 targeting 2010 release.

"Mr. Morita will bring the results of the joint development, "the two most advanced PDP technologies by combining the power 1 / 3, infinite-contrast, black level is zero, and the lightness and thinness, the plasma can achieve the ultimate it. We want to develop these products to the 2010 target year." watch (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fav.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fdocs%2F20080424%2Fpi opana1.htm%3Fref%3Drss&sl=auto&tl=en&history_state0=)

Following Otani, Matsushita Managing Executive Officer Ken Morita made a speech. Matsushita has, "in one fell swoop, obtained engineers that are robust enough to accelerate development," thanks to the transfer of Pioneer engineers, he said. And he announced Matsushita will develop a 42-inch class, approximately 150W panel that can be mounted on a wall targeting 2010. tech-on (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080425/151054/)

That's the latest scoop. The panel has been in development since 2008 targeting 2010 release.

watch (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fav.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fdocs%2F20080424%2Fpi opana1.htm%3Fref%3Drss&sl=auto&tl=en&history_state0=)

tech-on (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080425/151054/)

Thanks for the info :)

I wonder if all Panasonic plasmas will be as thin as the Z1 next year. I'd also like to see that brushed aluminum finish be used more.

I can't see Panasonic dropping shades of black in 1 production year. If they are to reach the black level they are advertising it will probably be implemented in a way that black details are crushed much like "Dynamic Black" features on LCDs. So maybe they do beat out Pioneer in terms of black levels however it will most likely be at the expense of PQ.

blacks, viewing angle, and motion resolution alone are enough to choose a plasma over an LCD. Room lighting is all but a non issue with the newer screen coatings and, ironically, so many newer LCD's are actually worse in this regard anyway, with their glossy, glass-like screens.

I own the top/near top LCD (XBR) and the best plasma (Kuro).

The plasma displays a better image 98% of the time.

I'm certain 2010 will see LCD manu's continuing to devise band-aids for inherent problems of LCD tech...likely including even goofier looking-motion enhancement, and edge lit LED's that produce blacks that get "closer" to plasma, but simutaneously exploit the significantly less uniform LCD panel.

The average consumer meanwhile, will continue to get duped.

James

+1, Well said.

Exactly. This AM on GMA they had a whole row of LED/LCD panels telling everyone this is the tech you will be buying, how wonderful it is and on and on. I wanted to spit out my coffee when I heard them gushing. That is the pap the public buys into because they are the "experts".

http://i32.tinypic.com/20affyu.png (http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/announcement/fy2010/pdf/slide1q10e_note.pdf)

To whom has Pioneer sold its PDP patents? :p

Is there a need to guess ^-^

Is there a need to guess ^-^

Hi Nielo,

I know the smart money would say Panasonic for a number of very obvious reasons but for some reason, I have a gut feeling it may actually be Samsung. My reasons are the aggressiveness and cash rich capabilities of Samsung & being the global leader in HDTV sales, a greater source of potential multiple royalty income for Pioneer for quite some time if such was factored into the deal. Also, Pioneer's need for cash at the time may have been such that they could not pass up any higher offer by Samsung over the traditional paths Japanese companies usually follow by having a very strong preference for passing tech to each other rather than outsiders. Other than that, no rhyme or reason!


Bazzy!

I think its more complex than that.


And Pioneer would rather sell their patents to another Japanese firm than to a Korean firm.

Well, regardless of who purchased those Patents, it is better that someone starts applying them to their displays, rather than having them not being used at all.

Since someone already paid for them, they will surely show up in the purchaser's 2010 Plasma line.

This is big news; for those, such as myself, who are willing to wait to see what the 2010 CES reveals, and this makes it easy to hold off making a purchase of a 2009 set.

In a humorous vein: perhaps Pioneer pulled a fast one, and sold Samsung the loud buzzing process rights, and they sold Panasonic the way to overprice the Z1, so they too can avoid selling a lot of product.;)

Hi Nielo,

I know the smart money would say Panasonic for a number of very obvious reasons but for some reason, I have a gut feeling it may actually be Samsung. My reasons are the aggressiveness and cash rich capabilities of Samsung & being the global leader in HDTV sales, a greater source of potential multiple royalty income for Pioneer for quite some time if such was factored into the deal. Also, Pioneer's need for cash at the time may have been such that they could not pass up any higher offer by Samsung over the traditional paths Japanese companies usually follow by having a very strong preference for passing tech to each other rather than outsiders. Other than that, no rhyme or reason!


Bazzy!

I just can't see them selling technology to a Korean Company along with Pioneer being in development with Panasonic last year.

I just can't see them selling technology to a Korean Company along with Pioneer being in development with Panasonic last year.

Hi,

I hear you & all common logic would indeed point to Panasonic (like I said for very obvious reasons) but these difficult economic times have thrown up quite a few surprises and conundrums that did not follow logic! I hope it's Panasonic but for some reason, my gut says Samsung!


Bazzy!

Hi,

I hear you & all common logic would indeed point to Panasonic (like I said for very obvious reasons) but these difficult economic times have thrown up quite a few surprises and conundrums that did not follow logic! I hope it's Panasonic but for some reason, my gut says Samsung!


Bazzy!

Since Pioneer was a part of the NeoPDP research group, it would be very hard for them to separate out their exclusive patents from how much they were improved by the group research team from Pioneer, Panasonic, and Hitachi. That would make it almost impossible for them to sell the patents to Samsung, without Panasonic filing a legal challenge to the tranfer. Given Pioneer's current poor financial situation, I am sure that the last thing they would want is have things tied up in court. Selling to Panasonic would avoid that.

I expect that it is Panasonic, and I am also sure, given Samsung's history, that they have already used a third party to reverse engineer a Kuro, just add a slight wrinkle to provide plausible deniable, and they will have their own approximation coming to market.

Is there a need to guess ^-^

Hehe it was pretty obvious anyway:

Transfer of Patents for Plasma Display Panels to Panasonic Corporation
The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans for a full withdrawal from the display business. (http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/annual_reports/2009/pdf/2009e.pdf)

66 million dollars from sale of patents and other stuff.

Panasonic acknowledges hiring of Pioneer engineers. (per above linked article)

Hopefully 1 + 1 = 2 and 2010 Panasonics will be "just special"

Hehe it was pretty obvious anyway:

Transfer of Patents for Plasma Display Panels to Panasonic Corporation

Hi All,

Looks like my gut was wrong after all - thankfully! Now, if Panny applies the next gen NEO-PDP & Kuro Tech to both Plasmas & LCD's then they should have a very powerful advantage across their entire range. Question is, when will Panny apply the tech, 2010 or later? How much of it across models and as they generally build ranges to budgets? I really hope they do not want silly money for the top end models like the Sharp LED & their own Z series!!


Bazzy!

Until new product announcements are made at IFA 2009, CEDIA 2009, and CES '10 this thread will primarily contain speculation...

Wait a month or two until valid information is available.... sheesh people! :rolleyes: :p

Seems this is more like a NeoPDP Eco anticipation thread! :)

until new product announcements are made at ifa 2009, cedia 2009, and ces '10 this thread will primarily contain speculation...

wait a month or two until valid information is available.... Sheesh people! :rolleyes: :p

seems this is more like a neopdp eco anticipation thread! :)

Bring on the 65" Panasonic Kuro! :D

Bring on the 65" Panasonic Kuro! :D

LOL... you always bring the nasty bits... get a room! ;) :D

Until new product announcements are made at IFA 2009, CEDIA 2009, and CES '10 this thread will primarily contain speculation...

Wait a month or two until valid information is available.... sheesh people! :rolleyes: :p

Seems this is more like a NeoPDP Eco anticipation thread! :)

Speculation only "when" its going to happen. We now know that Panasonic bought the patents and hired the engineers.

When I was watching the shootout and the Panasonic sales guy was finished talking he started to say wait until you see what we have coming next year and then he shut up.

I'm a happy man -10G on the way!:D

Speculation only "when" its going to happen. We now know that Panasonic bought the patents and hired the engineers.

When I was watching the shootout and the Panasonic sales guy was finished talking he started to say wait until you see what we have coming next year and then he shut up.

I'm a happy man -10G on the way!:D

:rolleyes:
Can anyone on this forum indicate which patents may or may not be used on an unannounced display? Hence, you're still speculating with bits and pieces of information... this is how conspiracies are made! :p

Anyways, I share your expressed interest in seeing what turns out to be Panasonic's top of the line PDP for 2010. But if that's what this thread is really about, shouldn't the mods move this thread to the plasma forum?

I can't wait for the XEL-65XBR1000, which will ship in October 2010! :p ;)

You know what I would like to see Panasonic work on more than anything else for their next year panels? Their designs!

Holy crap on a stick Panasonic makes, in my eyes, some of the ugliest designed panels in the industry. That is another area where they have plenty to learn from Pioneer. If 0IRE blacks are on the slate next year (thought somehow, deep down, I doubt it) I sure hope a design that does not make want to cringe every time I look at it is also in the plans.

I know that certainly went a long way to prevent me from enjoying my previous Panasonic panel and was glad to be rid of it.

You know what I would like to see Panasonic work on more than anything else for their next year panels? Their designs!

Holy crap on a stick Panasonic makes, in my eyes, some of the ugliest designed panels in the industry. That is another area where they have plenty to learn from Pioneer. If 0IRE blacks are on the slate next year (thought somehow, deep down, I doubt it) I sure hope a design that does not make want to cringe every time I look at it is also in the plans.

I know that certainly went a long way to prevent me from enjoying my previous Panasonic panel and was glad to be rid of it.

It wouldn't hurt for them to hire a top notch industrial designer from Italy, or even your country. However, if it has to be one or the other, I would prefer that they get their CMS accuracy and user accessible tweaking options, plus Kuro level blacks first. I prefer substance over style. Ideally both, but if I had to choose, I want them to show me a terrific image processing system first.

You know what I would like to see Panasonic work on more than anything else for their next year panels? Their designs!

Holy crap on a stick Panasonic makes, in my eyes, some of the ugliest designed panels in the industry. That is another area where they have plenty to learn from Pioneer. If 0IRE blacks are on the slate next year (thought somehow, deep down, I doubt it) I sure hope a design that does not make want to cringe every time I look at it is also in the plans.

I know that certainly went a long way to prevent me from enjoying my previous Panasonic panel and was glad to be rid of it.

I think panasonic is sort of hit and miss with the design. Most of their 2008 line was actually pretty sleek, especially the pz85. Yet 2009 is almost exclusively horrendous, except for the Z1 which is possibly the most beautiful looking TV ever made.

If panasonic can make their 2010 designs like the Z1, even if not brushed aluminum, I think they'll be right up there with samsung in the sleekness category. And honestly, with upcoming sets looking to be around an inch thick or even less, it's kind of hard not to go with a simple, no-nonsense design.

Also, I'm glad to hear the pioneer sold off its patents to panasonic. Hopefully that bears fruit for 2010. Even if we don't get absolute black, is it possible for panasonic to at least match or even exceed 9g kuro black performance? Or heck, how about color performance, grayscale, and gamma? Panasonic needs to improve in those areas as well, because right now samsung has got them beat pretty badly.

I think panasonic is sort of hit and miss with the design. Most of their 2008 line was actually pretty sleek, especially the pz85.

:confused: The 85U was not that good looking (IMHO) it had a big "lip" and a very wide bezel. Panasonic's build is very good and second only to Pioneer when it comes to flat panels but I have never found their sets very nice to look at. They should take some notes from what Samsung does (design, not build! Samsung's seem "plasticky") the A/B 750 are beautiful sets as are the edge lit LED models.

Hi,

I hear you & all common logic would indeed point to Panasonic (like I said for very obvious reasons) but these difficult economic times have thrown up quite a few surprises and conundrums that did not follow logic! I hope it's Panasonic but for some reason, my gut says Samsung!


Bazzy!

Who knows really

Though personally, I doubt it's from Samsung (because even if they make both tech, their priority is still LCD TV......while their plasma business is more of a sidejob to them).

It wouldn't hurt for them to hire a top notch industrial designer from Italy, or even your country. However, if it has to be one or the other, I would prefer that they get their CMS accuracy and user accessible tweaking options, plus Kuro level blacks first. I prefer substance over style. Ideally both, but if I had to choose, I want them to show me a terrific image processing system first.

I agree.

ditto, but have you seen the new LG LCD models?

http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-televisions/1048790-awesome-new-lg-sl80-sl90-slim-thins.html

I wish Japanese manufactures would focus slightly more on aesthetics

ditto, but have you seen the new LG LCD models?

http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-televisions/1048790-awesome-new-lg-sl80-sl90-slim-thins.html

I wish Japanese manufactures would focus slightly more on aesthetics

WOW! Those look freaking great. Much better than other LG designs.

AUO has upped panel static contrast to 15000:1. Samsung claims to have even higher performance and will reveal the number in couple of weeks. Pretty crazy improvement. :D

Panasonic is showing signs of healthy life. They just announced what is almost certainly the finest front projector available:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae4000_projector_review.htm
....for a street price of <$2000.

That and a great quality high-gain screen will cost you $3000 total which is the price of a 60+" flat panel, perhaps cheaper. Both would be usable in a partially lit room, and both would offer high quality images. But the FP image could easily be 100-120" in size.

High quality projectors are now cheaper than flat panels....

What can be expected is that LCD sales will grow while plasma continues to fade.
http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/lcd,sales,plasma

Panasonic is showing signs of healthy life. They just announced what is almost certainly the finest front projector available:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae4000_projector_review.htm
....for a street price of <$2000.

That and a great quality high-gain screen will cost you $3000 total which is the price of a 60+" flat panel, perhaps cheaper. Both would be usable in a partially lit room, and both would offer high quality images. But the FP image could easily be 100-120" in size.

High quality projectors are now cheaper than flat panels....

And thus why my interest in flat panels has decreased. I bought a closed Pioneer Projector and a 106" DaLite HP screen for just over $3k and my old Pioneer 6020 that I so cost me over $4k brand new. A movie on a nice front projection setup is much more appealing than watching one on a 55" or 60" TV. I wouldn't have said this at the beginning of the year but my opinion is exactly the opposite now. ;)

I'm hoping Panasonic's new projector and price will cause JVC to drop their prices.

What can be expected is that LCD sales will grow while plasma continues to fade.
http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/lcd,sales,plasma

I don't even need to read that article to know that plasma is going out.

It wouldn't hurt for them to hire a top notch industrial designer from Italy...

How about those guys from Dolche & Gabana? :p

CMO successfully develops the world’s highest static contrast ratio (15000:1) LCD TV
Using new-age high contrast color resist and high performance polarizer, and optimizing cell design to achieve high contrast, the deepest black can be achieved even when a black image is displayed in a dark room. Proprietary wide view film also minimizes light leakage to achieve true ultra-wide-angle view. link (http://www.cmo.com.tw/opencms/cmo/media_center/News/index.html?news_no=1&__locale=en)

Also CMO has 15k:1 static panels. Pair one of these with local dimming backlight and most of the people will stop talking about contrast and black levels.

Hopefully some 3d capable LCDs (read: True, non-processed 120/240hz displays) come in 24, 27 and 32 sizes. Samsung and ViewSonic have 120hz monitors on the market, but they're only 22 inchers.

Hopefully some 3d capable LCDs (read: True, non-processed 120/240hz displays) come in 24, 27 and 32 sizes. Samsung and ViewSonic have 120hz monitors on the market, but they're only 22 inchers.

sharp already have true 240hz lcds ,it will be launched next month in japan,using a new lcd tech.

Is there really a 65" Sony OLED coming out? You've got to be kidding; if this were happening why are any of us even talking about LCD or Plasma? Also, sad to know that Plasma will probably be dead and not because it's inferior tech but because of poor marketing strategies and slow implementation of improvements in PQ.

Bring on the 65" Panasonic Kuro! :D

Ha, ha, looks like Pioneer ain't quite dead yet, and we may get a Pananeer!:D

Panasonic is showing signs of healthy life. They just announced what is almost certainly the finest front projector available:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae4000_projector_review.htm
....for a street price of <$2000.


Not to nit-pick, but 'finest front projector available' is quite a stretch. Maybe 'finest value available' or something along those lines I would let pass (I would personally say even that's arguable) but finest FP available? Sorry, not even close.

Not to nit-pick, but 'finest front projector available' is quite a stretch. Maybe 'finest value available' or something along those lines I would let pass (I would personally say even that's arguable) but finest FP available? Sorry, not even close.

He did qualify it.

"the finest front projector available: (link) ....for a street price of <$2000."

Is there really a 65" Sony OLED coming out? You've got to be kidding; if this were happening why are any of us even talking about LCD or Plasma? Also, sad to know that Plasma will probably be dead and not because it's inferior tech but because of poor marketing strategies and slow implementation of improvements in PQ.

Yeah, in 2017