These are screen captures from the YouTube archive of this event.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2458/3762566721_87e79bd84f_b.jpg

Top Row: Panasonic V10 (left); LG PS60 (right)
Bottom Row: Toshiba 670U (left); Sony XBR9 (right)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2649/3763363780_45ee020415_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3529/3763363992_0810e6ba9a_b.jpg

Once again, Panny V10 on left; LG PS60 on right. Toshiba 670U backlit LED and Sony XBR9 CCFL on bottom.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2517/3762567179_a7f4fac5d9_b.jpg

Kevin Miller presentation: Part 2. The displays are being fed a 1% IRE signal.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2621/3763364100_9d0803c8db_b.jpg

Panasonic V10: top left (with red light)
LG PS60: top right
Toshiba 670U bottom left
Sony XBR9 bottom right

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2378/3762567229_9c807bdfb9_b.jpg

Do you realize that there are no photos in these messages? (or is it just me?!)

Would be nice if we had some HQ screens to show actual PQ. Thanks for the shots though, would have been cool to be at this event.

Do you realize that there are no photos in these messages? (or is it just me?!)

Its just you.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2361/3763364162_99676c0d8d_b.jpg

1% IRE signal (cont.)

Samsung B860 (top left)
Pioneer KRP-500M (top middle)
Panasonic V10 (top right)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2632/3762567293_8e7cea5e20_b.jpg

I hope everyone can see these shots. By the way, if some of the shots are just one black glob and you can't distinguish any differences, you must have a cheap TN panel LCD. Try adjusting the angle of your monitor, and also switch your picture mode to game mode or dynamic or something to accentuate the contrast. Then you should be able to tell a difference in the dark shots.

Notice in the last couple of shots how much more the Sammy B860 on the left is glowing than the Panny V10 on the right. Of course the KRP-500M in the middle looks darkest. I also uploaded these pics to show how much more the LG glows than the others, with light on in the room and off.

I'm not going to bother to upload any pics showing colors or anything. It would be impossible to judge anything accurately. This is just a rough gauge for people to see which TV's glow the most in the dark, and how much more each glows. That's about all you can (sorta) gauge from these pics. I realize it is far from perfect.

Here is the link to the Google Picasa album to download these shots at full size 1920x1080. I labeled the times of the screenshots so you can go on YouTube and find the exact spot in the video to compare yourselves.
http://picasaweb.google.com/DocuMaker1080p/2009HDTVShootoutScreenshots#

there are no pics on any of the posts

These pics need to be ISF calibrated. :D j/k not really

Here is a good shot on top, of the Samsung B860 on the left next to the KRP-500M on the right. Obviously you can see the window pattern being displayed as a rectangle in the center on the Pioneer.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3462/3763364210_4e19519106_b.jpg

I don't know why some can see them, and some can't. I uploaded them to Google Picasa. The filenames to link to the phots are quite long. Flickr is so much easier. I probably should have used Flickr. Perhaps someone has to be logged into Google or something to see them? I dunno how all this picture embedding works. :confused:

Anyway you should be able to see and download the photos by going to the Picasa link here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/DocuMaker1080p/2009HDTVShootoutScreenshots#

Try putting them on an SD card and plugging them in for display on your plasma. You should be able to see the difference, in the dark.

I am truly disgusted that sony could release such a pos tv (xbr 9).

Well the camera shot may have been slightly off-angle making the Sony glow a bit more. Perhaps if the shot was straight on it would have better blacks.

Here is the V10 on the top left with the red light, and the LG on the top right. The Sony LCD has the white light on the bottom.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2453/3762567407_157770f272_b.jpg

Here is the KRP-500M on the top left, and the Panny V10 on the top right, which glows a bit more. The LG LH90 LED backlit is on the bottom left, and the Toshi LED 670U is on the bottom right.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2517/3763364252_352dd3780c_b.jpg

When they 'rated' black level did they rate it on a full-black screen?

whatever you did i can see the pics now

same here

All these pics (attempt to) demonstrate, is what was already revealed by the measurements and the audience voting. For the plasmas, the LG came in last place for blacks, followed by the Samsung B860. The V10 of course finished a distant second to the Pioneer 500M. The only reason I posted these is because a few delusional Sammy fannys, based upon one Danish review, try to claim that the B860 is just as dark as the V10, when obviously it is not. From the measurements and from these screenshots, the Sammy and (especially) the LG glow much more than the Pioneer and the Panasonic. You can see why the LG plasma was the cheapest entry in the contest.

When they 'rated' black level did they rate it on a full-black screen?

I'm not sure, since I wasn't there, but I think they just voted on their overall impression of which had the best blacks, inlcuding test patterns and real content. They chose to feed the sets a 1% IRE signal because at 0% the LED's on the Samsung Luxia will shut-off completely, and not give a very useful indication of its MLL. They also put up some white window patterns to make the displays do the bright white and dark black at the same time. I don't think they put up any ANSI checkerboards, if I recall correctly.

I can't see a damn thing.

You can see from a couple of the pics (bottom row) that the LG LED backlit doesn't look nearly as dark as the Toshi LED backlit directly to the right of it, and the audience voting reflects that.

Black levels, as voted on by the audience. (10 is best):

Pioneer KRP-500M:....9.6
Panasonic V10: .......7.1
Samsung B860: .......6.7
LG PS60:................5.8

Samsung UB8000:....7.4 (tied)
Toshiba 670U:.........7.4 (tied)
LG LH90:................5.5
Sony XBR9..............4.0

I don't know why some can see them, and some can't. I uploaded them to Google Picasa. Many employers, like mine, have various photo hosting sites blocked (like Imageshack and Picasa etc).

I can't see any of them on my office PC here at work, but i was able to see them when i went home for lunch.

Great test for all those people who like to buy large, expensive TV's then sit in a totally dark room and watch entirely blank black screens in their spare time...

(Just kidding, I get the benefits of "black level" -- I just think its kind of funny how seriously some people take it, as if it were the Holy Grail and nothing else mattered.)

Isn't what counts in the end the overall perceived PQ? If you don't perceive it as better, it’s kind of irrelevant in the real world whether it is measurably better. Sure if I’m testing water or air quality, I care about what I can’t see, but for picture quality? Black level is but one of the factored influencing the overall perception of contrast and picture quality. I am much more interested in the side-by-side comparisons of Tv’s running the same source content and how they look when you add up all the variables of PQ.

Are you going to post some of the pictures of the screens playing content?

You can always do like this. I turned up the gamma on the photo so it is easier to see how much light the camera captured. In this photo, the camera couldnt really capture the low light from the Kuro(left, upper corner). And thats a good thing....;)

148808

I can't see a damn thing.

You will likely have to crank up your black (brightness) levels to the max to accentuate the differences.

Great test for all those people who like to buy large, expensive TV's then sit in a totally dark room and watch entirely blank black screens in their spare time...

(Just kidding, I get the benefits of "black level" -- I just think its kind of funny how seriously some people take it, as if it were the Holy Grail and nothing else mattered.)

Isn't what counts in the end the overall perceived PQ? If you don't perceive it as better, it’s kind of irrelevant in the real world whether it is measurably better. Sure if I’m testing water or air quality, I care about what I can’t see, but for picture quality? Black level is but one of the factored influencing the overall perception of contrast and picture quality. I am much more interested in the side-by-side comparisons of Tv’s running the same source content and how they look when you add up all the variables of PQ.

Are you going to post some of the pictures of the screens playing content?

Everything you said has some validity. Black level is only one component in determining PQ. The live feed of the event showed some content (Dark Knight, etc.) but it did not get uploaded to archive on the YouTube site. Unfortunately, the quality of the feed was too poor to judge anything besides which glowed the least/most anyway.

Anyway, I do hope some of the Sammy fannys who talk about "Kuro-like" blacks on their B860's take a hard look at those pics. It's obvious that Samsung is about 2-3 notches lighter than the Panasonic, and the Panasonic is several notches lighter than the 500M.

All these snapshots (except the frst two in the light) are taken from the clips of the Kevin Miller presentation, parts 1-3, so you can judge yourself from the video.

Just understand when watching the video that the Samsung B860 was on the far left, then the Pioneer 500M, then the Panny V10, then the LG PS60 on the far right.

The Samsung Luxia 8000 was on the bottom left, then the LG LH90, then the Toshiba 670U, then the Sony XBR9 below the LG plasma on the far right.

Kevin Miller presentation part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJtn3rz7seQ

Kevin Miller presentation part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm0sBSje3SM

Kevin Miller presentation part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBElNUiCZIk

P.S. I hope next year they can find a camera with a wide enough lens to fit all 4 TV's across in the shot at once. Usually you could only see 2 across at most.

i find it hard to believe 2 LCDs beat out out the panasonic in black level unless it was an all black screen

I do have an average monitor but are these screen shots from youtube??? If so then thats your problem right there. I dont care if you gotta Kuro for a monitor.

But I do see where your going with this.

Although the Panny did only trump the Sammy by .3. whatever that means. So its not like it was soooo huge (panny guy here btw)

I do have an average monitor but are these screen shots from youtube??? If so then thats your problem right there. I dont care if you gotta Kuro for a monitor.

But I do see where your going with this.

Although the Panny did only trump the Sammy by .3. whatever that means. So its not like it was soooo huge (panny guy here btw)

Acutally, it was a 0.4 difference in voting. But in raw measurements the B860 measured almost 3 times higher black levels than the V10. Other calibrators/reviewers have measured around twice the black levels on the Samsungs vs. the G10/V10 Panasonics.

One thing to take into account is on some of last year's Panasonics, some people were noticing that their black levels were drifitng higher as the panel aged, even doubling from the measurements they took fresh out of the box. I have no idea whether or not the black levels are drifting higher with age on this year's Panasonics or not.

i find it hard to believe 2 LCDs beat out out the panasonic in black level unless it was an all black screen
The Toshiba and LG were LED backlit with local dimming, and the Samsung is LED edge lit.
The Sony (XBR9) was the only CCFL backlit LCD in the shootout. The only surprise to me, was that the edge-lit Samsung performed so well as far as black levels go.

Times are changing, PDP and LCD are making big strides. One big advantage PDP has is price -- LED backlit LCD's cost considerably more and even the LED edge-lit cost an arm and a leg.

I do have an average monitor but are these screen shots from youtube??? If so then thats your problem right there. I dont care if you gotta Kuro for a monitor.

But I do see where your going with this.

Although the Panny did only trump the Sammy by .3. whatever that means. So its not like it was soooo huge (panny guy here btw)

This is where I have a problem with taking the biased votes and using them as the real measure of PQ. Just take black levels and take a look at the actual readings you will see that the Pioneer was way better than the other three (for isf night mode outputs of 0 fL at IRE0, and 0.18 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 34 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 6,613,937:1). The Panasonic was better (for THX mode outputs of 0.015 fL at IRE0, and 0.19 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 24 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 1,676:1) than the other two. The Samsung (for movie 35 mode outputs of 0.0229 fL at IRE0, and 0.227 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 34.8 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 1,518:1) was a little better than the LG (for isf-1 mode outputs of 0.0292 fL at IRE0, and 0.24 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 34.5 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 1,181:1). But compared to 6 Million to 1, the difference in contrast ratios between the other three is not that big. My own LG 60PS11, which is extremely similar to the 60PS60 that was tested in the shootout actually comes in at a Contrast Ratio of 3516:1, but I have calibrated it over several days to get it to look like I want to. It's a different meter and the readings are not directly comparable to the shootout results, but the LG at way below Panasonic and Samsung for black levels is not warranted based on the results. There are other issues (color reproduction for one), where the other sets are better than LG, and it certainly is not the PQ champ, but it does produce black levels reasonably similar to the Samsung and Panasonic, and none of them can touch the Pioneer.

If you look at the voting results for black levels though, the order is the same, but Pioneer is near perfect, both Panasonic and Samsung are neck and neck and considered adequate around here, and LG is considered poor. If you want to really compare the PQ, look at the readings, not some barely visible pictures, or voting results biased by preconceived notions about who makes better sets.

This is where I have a problem with taking the biased votes and using them as the real measure of PQ. Just take black levels and take a look at the actual readings you will see that the Pioneer was way better than the other three (for isf night mode outputs of 0 fL at IRE0, and 0.18 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 34 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 6,613,937:1). The Panasonic was better (for THX mode outputs of 0.015 fL at IRE0, and 0.19 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 24 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 1,676:1) than the other two. The Samsung (for movie 35 mode outputs of 0.0229 fL at IRE0, and 0.227 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 34.8 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 1,518:1) was a little better than the LG (for isf-1 mode outputs of 0.0292 fL at IRE0, and 0.24 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 34.5 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 1,181:1). But compared to 6 Million to 1, the difference in contrast ratios between the other three is not that big. My own LG 60PS11, which is extremely similar to the 60PS60 that was tested in the shootout actually comes in at a Contrast Ratio of 3516:1, but I have calibrated it over several days to get it to look like I want to. It's a different meter and the readings are not directly comparable to the shootout results, but the LG at way below Panasonic and Samsung for black levels is not warranted based on the results. There are other issues (color reproduction for one), where the other sets are better than LG, and it certainly is not the PQ champ, but it does produce black levels reasonably similar to the Samsung and Panasonic, and none of them can touch the Pioneer.

If you look at the voting results for black levels though, the order is the same, but Pioneer is near perfect, both Panasonic and Samsung are neck and neck and considered adequate around here, and LG is considered poor. If you want to really compare the PQ, look at the readings, not some barely visible pictures, or voting results biased by preconceived notions about who makes better sets.

Doesn't this depend on what your goal is? I didn't pay attention to whether the shootout had a defined purpose. But I assumed the purpose was to help people in deciding which set to buy. If the purpose was to conduct some scientific study of technical set performance, your point is correct. Then measurements are everything. But if the purpose is the gauge what sets have the best perceived picture quality, then surveying the subjective opinions of the audience is not only useful but I would argue MORE helpful than the technical measurements. I like seeing both myself. But at the end of the day for me the shootout is one of many variables in helping determine what set to buy to actually watch TV and movies on, so I care most about the perceived final PQ. Individual opinions will vary from the collective average opinion of the audience so a good researcher will not exclusively rely on this. But it is equally silly to look at some technically measurements and say, “set X has way better black level performance so it will look like the best picture when I’m watching TV.” That’s just silly. Don’t get me wrong, knowing the technical performance is great. It’s just not the be-all, end-all.

One thing to take into account is on some of last year's Panasonics, some people were noticing that their black levels were drifitng higher as the panel aged, even doubling from the measurements they took fresh out of the box. I have no idea whether or not the black levels are drifting higher with age on this year's Panasonics or not.

*gulp

Hope my PZ80 is still good. That's what I get for reading this site I guess. doh! I'm still super happy with it, but if black levels get 2x as high in one year, my next purchase won't be a plasma. (probably OLED)

Wonder if "infinite blacks" plasma owners in the next couple years react to "infinity / 2" blacks after prolonged use. hehe

Here is one thread for instance:

Does Black Level on a Plasma TV Get Worse Over Time ???
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16891019

This is where I have a problem with taking the biased votes and using them as the real measure of PQ. Just take black levels and take a look at the actual readings you will see that the Pioneer was way better than the other three (for isf night mode outputs of 0 fL at IRE0, and 0.18 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 34 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 6,613,937:1). The Panasonic was better (for THX mode outputs of 0.015 fL at IRE0, and 0.19 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 24 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 1,676:1) than the other two. The Samsung (for movie 35 mode outputs of 0.0229 fL at IRE0, and 0.227 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 34.8 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 1,518:1) was a little better than the LG (for isf-1 mode outputs of 0.0292 fL at IRE0, and 0.24 fL IRE10, with a peak output of 34.5 fL at IRE 100, and a Contrast Ratio of 1,181:1). But compared to 6 Million to 1, the difference in contrast ratios between the other three is not that big. My own LG 60PS11, which is extremely similar to the 60PS60 that was tested in the shootout actually comes in at a Contrast Ratio of 3516:1, but I have calibrated it over several days to get it to look like I want to. It's a different meter and the readings are not directly comparable to the shootout results, but the LG at way below Panasonic and Samsung for black levels is not warranted based on the results. There are other issues (color reproduction for one), where the other sets are better than LG, and it certainly is not the PQ champ, but it does produce black levels reasonably similar to the Samsung and Panasonic, and none of them can touch the Pioneer.

If you look at the voting results for black levels though, the order is the same, but Pioneer is near perfect, both Panasonic and Samsung are neck and neck and considered adequate around here, and LG is considered poor. If you want to really compare the PQ, look at the readings, not some barely visible pictures, or voting results biased by preconceived notions about who makes better sets.

I have a hard time believing that the Pio contrast is 6,000,000:1 and the others are only 1500:1 I understand that the numbers for the others are the more realistic contrast ratios and the numbers the marketing departments put out are total rubbish.

But it seems at some point the meter just reads some infinite number when its totally black. Sorry if what I said doesn't totally make sense or sound too technical.

I guess what I'm saying is does anyone really believe that the 6,000,000:1 is an accurate reading.

It's not a useful measurement. LED backlit lcds as far back as my old 81F can go completely blank on 0 IRE.

I'd still be willing to bet that the contrast measured on the 500M would be at least 5x-10x that of the next closest competitor, and that's a relatively conservative estimate

To all.

Which plasma has better detail in dark areas

To all.

Which plasma has better detail in dark areas

I was at the shootout Saturday night, and IMHO, the Pioneer was the best in every aspect. However, the PQ difference while playing real video content (not test patterns) were pretty subtle when compared to my 2nd choice for PQ, the Panasonic 50v10.

Now, I have a 6 year old 42" Panny plasma monitor, and I've never sat there and wished for better PQ given a good HD feed. Never. I'm usually feeling very immersed in the picture, with a "you are there" feeling. I do want a larger screen, integrated speakers so I don't always have to fire up the Home Theater, and a quiet set (my old Panny plasma buzzes).

Given that Pio is out of the Plasma business, that their sets have buzz issues, and that the 500m/600m don't have integrated speakers, I'm considering a Panasonic 54V10 (or maybe 58") as my next upgrade. Of course, if a '151 were at a really really really good price, I might go for that too.

why did you like the panny better than the samsung? blacks, colors, motion, detail...?

one other question, since you were there. do the differences in how much the plasmas glowed in the dark on a 0 or 1% IRE in reality approximate what came through on the pictures i posted, assuming you have your brightness on your monitor adjusted so you can see the differences?

I see dead people in those pics.

From the Samsung B650 thread:

I wonder why the 0.023 ftL that D-Nice measured on the B860 is nearly double the 0.012 ftL that Mr. Huffman recorded in his review of the B650? Surely the cheaper B650 doesn't have twice as good as black levels as the B860? The number D-Nice recorded seems abnormally high, whatever the reason. It is not even all that far below the 0.025 - 0.026 commonly reported on the previous year's Samsungs. Does anyone believe that there is only an insignificant improvement in black levels from last year's to this year's?

Does anyone know if the B860 had Cinema Smooth enabled when it was tested?
As this could account for the higher black level than expected.

Yes, I was adamant about asking this, and D-Nice said it was turned off.

why did you like the panny better than the samsung? blacks, colors, motion, detail...?

one other question, since you were there. do the differences in how much the plasmas glowed in the dark on a 0 or 1% IRE in reality approximate what came through on the pictures i posted, assuming you have your brightness on your monitor adjusted so you can see the differences?

The Panny had better black levels, the Samsung had better color, based on what I saw, they were very close in overall PQ. It really comes down to personal preference there - they both produce excellent pictures. I wouldn't buy the Samsung because of the reported buzz problem (my home is very quiet so the buzz would be more prominent - may not be an issue for everyone and the Samsung is otherwise excellent).

As far as black levels, I can see some of your pics coming though, but the ones where you're capturing black levels are all black (on my macbook). So I can't comment on them.

However, the black level ratings I've seen reported from the shootout basically match what I saw with the sets when they were displaying a full black screen (0/1% IRE, I'm not sure). And even though it had the best black level, the Pioneer still had a glow which was surprising given so many reports that it blended with the bezel. Not to my eye, it was very clearly on (and it was the 500m, calibrated by D-Nice, so I don't think it could get much better than what was on display there). Anyway, the LG LCD also had a low black level, but I didn't watch that during the video feeds.

When they played "The Dark Knight" I was mostly watching the Pio, the Panny, and the Toshiba LCD (because I wanted to compare with an LCD and the rep there did a good job of selling that sets features). All 3 sets did a great job in the brightly lit scenes of the bank robbery, but once it went to dark scenes, that LCD just fell off the cliff and the competition was down to the Pio & Panny. Watching those two during the movie, I really couldn't see much difference in terms of black level or black level detail. The Pio had a bit more accurate colors and a slightly more pleasing picture but again I would characterize it as subtle.

For instance, the most obvious color difference between these two sets was in the beginning when they were running through some still pictures. Most pics looked basically the same except a scene with some grass in it, where it looked noticeably greener on the Panny (like it was fertilized the week before). Also, a screen shot with some text looked slightly sharper on the Pio.

The differences in the pictures were much more noticeable with the test patterns than with a real video feed. If you watch a lot of test patterns, then buy based on the calibration reports :-)

Also, Robert, D-Nice, and the others who put this on did a great job - many thanks to all of them.

Hope that helped.

...Ken

From the Samsung B650 thread:



Does anyone know if the B860 had Cinema Smooth enabled when it was tested?
As this could account for the higher black level than expected.

My memory is D-Nice reported elsewhere that film mode was off.