Ok, so this is somewhat old news but I just stumbled on a video from CES last year where Pioneer had stated that they had "eliminated ALL idling luminance"; I am sure you still remember the never produced, 10g Pioneers. Anyway, it just really gets to me that we already have the technology to create a display with what everyone is looking for, perfect blacks (well as close to perfect as to make it indistinguishable to the eye) and nobody is doing anything with the technology.

With all the problems with LCD, OLED (in its current state), and other tech's, here is Pioneer, with the way to eliminate all of this "contrast ratio" arguing and Plasma vs. LCD debate (even though there is not much to debate with current LCD's). Also, even though Plasma enjoys many advantages over LCD, most consumers and salespeople have been so misinformed about plasma that they continue to push LCD's making Plasma an almost dying, albeit superior technology.

In this situation it seems as though plasma is going to need a BIG leap forward to stay in the game, a startlingly clear advantage, like NO idling luminance, which already exists. So what's the deal, why are none of the big companies interested in purchasing or in some way licensing the tech from Pioneer to create a display that will end all of the picture quality arguing and also save the current plasma TV market?

that will end all of the picture quality arguing

That will never happen.

Hi,

I hear you and agree mostly - it is a complete mystery what Pioneer will be doing with all that tech - one hopes they have done a secret deal behind the scenes with other companies who either wanted to buy the tech or use it under some sort of royalty. I was patiently waiting for the G10's and had to buy a G9 as that was the only remaining option.

Pioneer have really handled the whole Kuro affair so biblically badly, no-one will ever take them seriously again for HDTV's again from an investment point of view. The Pioneer engineers may be geniuses but the same simply cannot be said for the rest of the management team who handled the affair. It is very sad to know the tech is out there and ready to go but it is just mothballed instead collecting dust.


Bazzy!

Can't wait to see which 2010 set takes the cake calibrated, looks like everywhere I read they will be concentrating on black levels for plasmas and LCD's. We haven't even seen the OLED's that may be coming out in 2010 either. :D

the tech from Pioneer to create a display that will end all of the picture quality arguing and also save the current plasma TV market?

Check out Panasonic VX vs Pioneer KURO (http://uk.cinenow.com/videos/2134-panasonic-th-50vx100e-full-hd-home-theatre-monitor) video and you might notice that blacks aren't the only flaw with current tech. Better plasma blacks gets washed out in bright showrooms, so manufacturers should focus more on bright room contrast.

Check out Panasonic VX vs Pioneer KURO (http://uk.cinenow.com/videos/2134-panasonic-th-50vx100e-full-hd-home-theatre-monitor) video and you might notice that blacks aren't the only flaw with current tech. Better plasma blacks gets washed out in bright showrooms, so manufacturers should focus more on bright room contrast.

Hi,

It does seem that way - ultimately blacks are probably the most single important factor for a number of reasons and is obviously something a lot more difficult to perfect or improve upon than other things - The new Samsung B850 (buzzing issue aside) apparently can do everything just as good if not better than a Kuro except for black levels which are still shockingly poor by comparison. With the standard bearer out of the picture and no one to catch up to anymore, one has to ask the question, will brands really bother to drastically improve black levels significantly? A part of me thinks not as they would want to invest minimum money into R&D at a time of recession and try to make up for as much loss as possible with the next gen of sets - they will focus more on aesthetics and interactive features to lure purchasers with wow factor that grab the attention and create high desire at point of sale. I hope I am wrong but remember, its never the engineers who call the shots at these big companies - its the bean counters who probably know as much about HDTV's as my great grandma!


Bazzy!

Can't wait to see which 2010 set takes the cake calibrated, looks like everywhere I read they will be concentrating on black levels for plasmas and LCD's. We haven't even seen the OLED's that may be coming out in 2010 either. :D

There will be no OLEDs in 2010.. not ones worth buying anyways. Anyone that expects to buy a 40"+ OLED for under 10k in 2010 is smoking the good stuff :p

The above video does not demonstrate problems inherent to plasma, just straight ahead video processing problems and/or bandwidth limitations. This would be true for most LCD's as well. Detail in the blacks, ok, Panasonic does a better job, that's fine but the Kuro will still have more "impact" to the typical consumer who will notice the richer colors.

Yes, the tech isn't completely perfect but for the most of us black level is at the top of the list of important video attributes. Having owned a few LCD's, in the sub 37" category I would still go with an SD CRT over a full 1080p LCD (and have) as LCD's are too bothersome to watch. This may not be the case for some of you out there but "immersion" into a movie becomes more and more difficult with increasingly poorer black levels. Also, yes, I am one of those people that is slightly bothered by projected film (at theaters) because the black level is not as good as my direct view CRT's.

The above video does not demonstrate problems inherent to plasma, just straight ahead video processing problems and/or bandwidth limitations.

Notice how the audience comments that Pioneer has more noise in the picture and I'm pretty sure that also gradation problems come from CLEAR-driving. These problems can't be fixed with external high end scaler.

Detail in the blacks, ok, Panasonic does a better job, that's fine but the Kuro will still have more "impact" to the typical consumer who will notice the richer colors.
.

Actually, It doesn't.

I was interested in learning about these claims when hdguru first claimed it.

turns out, If calibrated correctly, the panny will not give more shadow detail than a 9G kuro.
From what I have read , If this Panasonic has a flat gamma curve, there is no such thing as more shadow detail. And that Panasonic has made the gamma higher on the lower end. The result is more detail in darker material. However it is NOT correct.
And that a properly setup Kuro will have the correct amount of shadow detail per the source material.

Check out Panasonic VX vs Pioneer KURO (http://uk.cinenow.com/videos/2134-panasonic-th-50vx100e-full-hd-home-theatre-monitor) video and you might notice that blacks aren't the only flaw with current tech. Better plasma blacks gets washed out in bright showrooms, so manufacturers should focus more on bright room contrast.

I dont agree. They should focus again on Absolut Blacks. This is what we wait for. Not increased contrast. That is boring news. Absolut Blacks will revitalize the plasma industri.

No offense..;)

Yeah, improving dark room black levels really helped Pioneer with their plasma business. :p

Yeah, improving dark room black levels really helped Pioneer with their plasma business. :p

Pioneers failure has nothing to do with thier black levels.

But it does have ALOT to do with thier TV's still reigning as the current champ even a year after thier date of release.

The A/V community wants high contrast. Thats just the way it is.
(And by contrast, I dont mean mediocre blacks and eye burning brightness).

Pioneers failure has nothing to do with thier black levels.

Absolut Blacks will revitalize the plasma industri.
Yeah, improving dark room black levels really helped Pioneer with their plasma business.


I think you missed the point. Better dark room blacks didn't save Pioneer and wouldn't save any other manufacturer. The real market is outside A/V community.

no one ever mentions price or cost to make the sets; its always something else.

I think it primarily had to do with specifics such as economy, price range, availability in most stores. If the economy were good maybe more would be willing to spend more. If they had a standard, mid, high, and elite brand of models and sizes from 40" and above that range from 1200 on up to 4g for the elites they would clearly would have more profit to continue. At least they released a standard of excellence which will take quite a while to beat. If they could have penetrated more places such as the mass market stores and had there sets side by side with the standard grade sets they could have made a ton just by placing them side by side next to the competition. Alas there story is different and this is the last year to support the champ.............maybe unless the Pioneer crew dispersed to the far regions of the TV universe. :D

I think you missed the point. Better dark room blacks didn't save Pioneer and wouldn't save any other manufacturer. The real market is outside A/V community.

Pioneer didnt do well because of many reasons.
bad advertising, warranty scare tactics, high prices, etc.

And in a bad economy like this, there just arent enough buyers that are looking for the best picture and willing to pay for it. Most people want a cheaper set.
And alot of the people who were actually willing to pay top dollar for the best, were steered in the wrong direction by misinformed salesmen.

Panasonic should buy up Pioneers Extreme contrast concept and fuga tech and work on implementing it on a line-up like the neo-pdps.

If they could apply these things too thier Plasmas, Then we are talking about a Flat-panel with perfect absolute zero blacks, the best motion of any flat-panel, the best processing, and the best contrast.
And if they could do this and keep the prices like the neo-pdps currently are, then holy moly!!!
I dont know why anyone would buy any other high end panel.

When you talk about best contrast, you talk about dark room contrast. TVs aren't sold in dark rooms. I have no idea why casual "uneducated" shopper would pick KURO because of black levels. You can talk about processing or motion resolution, normal people will talk about how sexy and slim their new Samsung LED TV is.

When you talk about best contrast, you talk about dark room contrast. TVs aren't sold in dark rooms. I have no idea why casual "uneducated" shopper would pick KURO because of black levels. You can talk about processing or motion resolution, normal people will talk about how sexy and slim their new Samsung LED TV is.

dark room contrast??
lol.
Spoken truly like someone who has no experience with a high end plasma in a lighted room.

When I walk thru BB today and see the new pannys next to the LCD's, they are definitly holding thier own.
And they have much more to offer than just brightness.

And for the record, I (and most A/V enthusiats I know of) could care less what "casual shoppers" would do or what torch mode trick they would fall for.

Let them fall for the "Sexy and slim" sales pitch if they want.

this is why panasonic needs to advertise more to the "casual shopper". Maybe they will get a little education on the subject before falling for a second tier "LED" TV when they could have gotten something with a much better picture for probably less money.

By the way, What is an "LED TV" anyway???
Its not some new type of TV like samsungs making it out to be. I cant believe people are falling for this.
"LED" is just an LCD with different backlighting technique. Same ole same ole.

If you got to the samsung site, they put "LED" as a whole categorie as if it is some new television technolgy.

Reminds me of a guy I work with that bought a new sammy LCD.
I askd him what kind he got and he said "ITs one of those new LED tvs", I said "you mean LCD???", he said "no, its an LED TV, they are better than LCD".
you should really read the fine print before thinking that LED is a different TV type than LCD.

You can talk about processing or motion resolution, normal people will talk about how sexy and slim their new Samsung LED TV is.

What??? I know a lot of people with flat panels. Not one has ever bragged about how slim & sexy it is.


And in a bad economy like this, there just arent enough buyers that are looking for the best picture and willing to pay for it.

Ain't that the truth. I'm trying to sell my Kuro (going front projection) and it is tough selling a high end tv in this market.:(

Ain't that the truth. I'm trying to sell my Kuro (going front projection) and it is tough selling a high end tv in this market.:( Everything sells at the right price, regardless of the economy.

You may be asking a tad too much if you can't move it, or, people have heard that Pioneer is out of the biz and are concerned about what happens if the set needs service down the road.

I hang out on a forum where a dedicated Pioneer employee hangs out and would give members deals on refurbs and help them buy other nice products for a good deal. He was in charge of marketing and sales or something like that and he's based out of the US market. When Pioneer announced they were discontinuing the plasmas and other things they also fired him and most of the rest of the people who did his sort of job and others:mad:
He was a great cheerleader for their products and got many to buy them, now he's moved on to a new job that has nothing to do with Pioneer or A/V products
and most of the folks there are starting to ignore them as a result.
Pioneer really shot themselves in the foot with this move and it will be interesting to see how they survive.

dark room contrast??
lol.
Spoken truly like someone who has no experience with a high end plasma in a lighted room.

http://i27.tinypic.com/1zvujl.jpg

First chart should give you some idea of PDP performance in home environment, the latter in show rooms.

http://i27.tinypic.com/1zvujl.jpg

First chart should give you some idea of PDP performance in home environment, the latter in show rooms.

Hmm, I could have swore that you were saying charts dont mean anything earlier....
Would you like me to link you to that post??

oh and by the way, notice that little "samsung" logo on the bottom left of that chart?? I do.;)

Ok, so this is somewhat old news but I just stumbled on a video from CES last year where Pioneer had stated that they had "eliminated ALL idling luminance"; I am sure you still remember the never produced, 10g Pioneers. Anyway, it just really gets to me that we already have the technology to create a display with what everyone is looking for, perfect blacks (well as close to perfect as to make it indistinguishable to the eye) and nobody is doing anything with the technology.

That is because they know PDP is on its way out. The kind of blacks you want will be manifested in a new superior technology. The smart manufacturers are looking towards the future, they''re not going to waste their time relgossing an antiquated technology.

Pioneer new there wasn't a future in PDP technology and that is why they got out of the business. LCD currently is killing them and they knew that reglossed line plasma TV's wasn't going to be a game changer.

That is because they know PDP is on its way out. The kind of blacks you want will be manifested in a new superior technology. The smart manufacturers are looking towards the future, they''re not going to waste their time relgossing an antiquated technology.

Pioneer new there wasn't a future in PDP technology and that is why they got out of the business. LCD currently is killing them and they knew that reglossed line plasma TV's wasn't going to be a game changer.

oh goodness, here we go.

Hmm, I could have swore that you were saying charts dont mean anything earlier....
Would you like me to link you to that post??

If taking words out of context makes you feel better, feel free to do so.

Pioneer knew there wasn't a future in PDP technology and that is why they got out of the business. LCD currently is killing them and they knew that reglossed line plasma TV's wasn't going to be a game changer.

Agreed.

oh goodness, here we go.

Why the sarcasm. As you know I own a Kuro, so I'm not knocking Pioneer. They did the best with what they had, after 5 months with my Kuro, I know that to be the true.

Pioneer new there wasn't a future in PDP technology and that is why they got out of the business. LCD currently is killing them and they knew that reglossed line plasma TV's wasn't going to be a game changer.

Last years pioneer PDPs out-class this years LCDs and yet there is no future in PDP technology? And year before last years PDPs outclass last years PDPs, and panasonic and samsung made huge steps in their panels this year............

So I guess this isn't about picture quality.

I guess it's about what a consumer will buy.
Buy what looks pretty at best buy, look at size and price range.

Obviously they got out of the PDP game because it was a good financial decision, not because they didn't make good TVs. But as well all know from the LCD forum, the sets the sell the most ARE the best sets........... so go VIZIO! (not really).

Its much better to sell sets that cost nothing and over-price them, and sell them to un-informed consumers that don't care much about PQ or build quality.

Ok, so most of us have seen the statistical data for the 9G Kuro's and the top of the heap IM-LED LCD HDTV's. The Kuro's, as well as Plasma's in general, dominate in every category, save for perhaps IRE levels in the "Super-White" areas, about 242-256 (keep in mind that "Super-White" area is usually reserved for closed captioning info in broadcasts; though we want to stay completely technical here so, yes, LCD does do a little better there). Though nearly all across the board PDP tech bests LCD. Knowing that and then adding the fact that Pioneer found a way to eliminate all the idling luminance + retain all of the benefits of current plasma makes the technology the best yet for building a standardized TV technology.

Yes, OLED and FED/SED tech are amazing in their own right but they too have some fatal flaws, most namely OLED, with emitter longevity issues. Also, keeping in mind that ANY display that has self-emissive pixels will be susceptible to burn in so your not really gaining much with OLED except to have to dump tons of money into a tech that may or may not have a future when PDP is already established. So, actually, it seems more likely that PDP should be built upon as it is the best we have got right now.

The only thing I could think of that might rival PDP in terms of manufacturer availability and low cost, high profit margain tech that still allows the company to advance the PQ to give consumers a better display would be IM-LED LCD that had nearly a 1:1 lighting ratio, but then we would have "uneven wear" issues, motion problems and the angular viewing issues would still remain, so I don't know, plasma still seems like the best tech, for PQ advancement, right now.

The biggest issue that plasma manufacturer's need to combat are those old rumors about Plasma TV's that continue to float around. I live in Flagstaff, AZ, which is at 7100ft. elevation. When I moved up here in 2005 I only owned Plasma's and CRT's (save for the LCD's I tried to own for a few days) and I have never had a problem with buzzing or reliability; that having gone from an 8g Panasonic, to a 9g Panasonic to an 8G Kuro, to (prepare to laugh) my tinted Vizio I bought last summer. However, there is not a day that goes by that I have to repeat, over and over, to customers that come into BB, Sears, Wal-Mart, etc.. that most plasma's are certified to 9,150-15,000ft. for normal operation. In addition the "refilling the gas" issue still pops up more than you would think, as well as "they only last like 2-3 years, whereas LCD, etc...) and "Plasma wastes 10-20x as much power as LCD", and, "Plasma puts out ridiculous amounts of heat, so much so that you can burn your hand on the screen" and one of my favorite's, "LCD has 120hz (or 240hz), that means LCD has better motion than Plasma now"

Yes, I hear these and other such myths and phrases repeated by people many times a day; it is horrible to see a good tech shunned by would be owners by simple misinformation. Panasonic may be the only company left with enough invested in Plasma to combat the rumors and myths with a straight ahead advertising campaign that address all of these concerns and promotes all of the benefits that Plasma enjoys over LCD.

I think it can be said without contradiction that Pioneer did, in their day, make the finest buggy whips available in the marketplace.

Horses subjected to these buggy whips ran faster, ate less, and always got the family to church on time.

I think it can be said without contradiction that Pioneer did, in their day, make the finest buggy whips available in the marketplace.

Horses subjected to these buggy whips ran faster, ate less, and always got the family to church on time.

So, you're comparing Pioneer KUROs to buggy whips? Do you have a point?

;16934062']So, you're comparing Pioneer KUROs to buggy whips? Do you have a point?
Yes. If you don't get it, it wasn't meant for you.

Yes. If you don't get it, it wasn't meant for you.

:Irishman goes back to enjoying his Pro-111:

;16936035']:Irishman goes back to enjoying his Pro-111:And a fine set to enjoy it is!!

Just wish the company that produced it had survived in the marketplace for HDTVs. Unfortunately they won't be there when you decide to upgrade.

And a fine set to enjoy it is!!

Just wish the company that produced it had survived in the marketplace for HDTVs. Unfortunately they won't be there when you decide to upgrade.

And which ones will?

;16942636']And which ones will?Sony, Samsung, and Toshiba will be there.

LG will be around, but may decide that washers and dryers generate more profit.

Sharp needs some more sharp minds to develop sharp products. They don't seem to be able to lick the banding problem that has plagued them for several generations.

Panasonic will me a market factor, but they will likely eventually throw in the towel with respect to plasma sets. Their LIFI sets didn't exactly set the world on fire and their earlier attempts at LCD projection units really stunk. Maybe they can hire some of the people from Sharp and develop a series of sets with banding issues, but actually turn on and give an image. Not perfection, but a step up.

Hi,

I hear you and agree mostly - it is a complete mystery what Pioneer will be doing with all that tech - one hopes they have done a secret deal behind the scenes with other companies who either wanted to buy the tech or use it under some sort of royalty. I was patiently waiting for the G10's and had to buy a G9 as that was the only remaining option.

Pioneer have really handled the whole Kuro affair so biblically badly, no-one will ever take them seriously again for HDTV's again from an investment point of view. The Pioneer engineers may be geniuses but the same simply cannot be said for the rest of the management team who handled the affair. It is very sad to know the tech is out there and ready to go but it is just mothballed instead collecting dust.


Bazzy!

I think the only "secret deal" Pioneer has going is with itself, and plans to re-enter the display marketplace as soon as they are able to do so.

I think the only "secret deal" Pioneer has going is with itself, and plans to re-enter the display marketplace as soon as they are able to do so.

Hi,

That is possible I guess but I think it is very highly improbable as they will have closed down & sold the factories, laid off most of the engineers & top developmental staff etc. The only way I can see them coming back is if they source sets from other brands under specification and/or tweak them later and repackage/rebadge under the Pioneer name. Still, that would be something!


Bazzy!

Hi,

That is possible I guess but I think it is very highly improbable as they will have closed down & sold the factories, laid off most of the engineers & top developmental staff etc. The only way I can see them coming back is if they source sets from other brands under specification and/or tweak them later and repackage/rebadge under the Pioneer name. Still, that would be something!


Bazzy!

Wrong on several accounts...well, I should say "half-wrong". Pioneer has retained its core Kuro engineers and are still performing R&D. True, Pioneer did let go a slew of pdp module engineers to Panasonic, and true they have closed their out-dated factories, but still has a plant in Japan. These guys are far from being dead, but they play dead very well. Their displays are still considered the best on the planet, and are still being sold. True, stocks are deminishing. There will be a gap in time, perhaps 18 months or so, before we see a re-emerging Pioneer. Robert (Pioneer insider) from VE thinks they are working on OLED.

I hope you are right about them someday re-entering the TV market. They have not re-entered any of the other markets they withdrew from, which makes me doubtful.

I hope you are right about them someday re-entering the TV market. They have not re-entered any of the other markets they withdrew from, which makes me doubtful.

Yeah, I hope so too. Which "other markets" are you referring to that Pioneer has withdrew products from the market never to return?

Wrong on several accounts...well, I should say "half-wrong". Pioneer has retained its core Kuro engineers and are still performing R&D. True, Pioneer did let go a slew of pdp module engineers to Panasonic, and true they have closed their out-dated factories, but still has a plant in Japan. These guys are far from being dead, but they play dead very well. Their displays are still considered the best on the planet, and are still being sold. True, stocks are deminishing. There will be a gap in time, perhaps 18 months or so, before we see a re-emerging Pioneer. Robert (Pioneer insider) from VE thinks they are working on OLED.


Hi,

I did not say they were not coming back - I said highly improbable! I would be only too happy if they did but I just cannot see it happening. If they do bring OLED's to market, then I feel it will be a joint collaboration with another company (possibly Sharp as it is shareholder).

Remember, with OLED, performances should be much closer across brands due to the nature of the tech if I understand correctly so it will be much harder for Pioneer to have the same level of massive performance advantage with OLED than it did with Plasma.

I feel they have already done a deal with their Kuro tech with someone (either Panasonic or Samsung) as Pioneer have stated themselves that they expect the G9 Kuro's performance to be surpassed in 2010. If we assume that it cannot be an LCD brand as it is mainly Plasma Tech they excelled and developed in, then it must be either Panny, Sammy or LG. Pioneer (if it had any sense!) would have sold/leased the tech to the highest bidder and done a deal for a percentage of revenue for every set sold globally. If that was say Sammy or Panny, then Pioneer would make a ton a cash - probably more than it ever could have by selling the sets by themselves!

In any case, even if they do come back, if they have the same management teams and approach they did last time round, then any new TV venture they enter into will probably also be doomed from day one!


Bazzy!

[QUOTE=Bazzy;16953535]



I feel they have already done a deal with their Kuro tech with someone (either Panasonic or Samsung) as Pioneer have stated themselves that they expect the G9 Kuro's performance to be surpassed in 2010. QUOTE]


When did Pioneer say this?

Bazzi, You may "feel" Pioneer deal has already been done w/their Kuro tech, but that doesn't make it so. Also,why do you "feel" it's improbable that Pioneer would not re-emerge in the display business? Afterall, Pioneer still holds the King Crown in flat panel displays, and already has a tremendous brand name recognition around the world for producing quality products. I think and "feel", that if there was any other company that could enter or re-enter this display market, Pioneer would be first on the list.

That statement about OLED displays will all pretty much be the same in performance is nonsense. When have you ever seen parity across the spectrum in any CE products, let alone TV's? Do all Plasma TV's look the same to you? Do all LCD TV's look the same to you? Did all CRT's look the same to you? Do all projectors look the same? See how ridiculous that sounds? I think you'd better start over w/that comment.

As for Pioneer's management, I'm sure they have done a lot more internal study and post prespective analysis that caused their exit from the display market than all the Monday Morning Quarterbacking you can heap on them, but all the same maybe you could email them w/a few pointers.:D

Yeah, I hope so too. Which "other markets" are you referring to that Pioneer has withdrew products from the market never to return?
DVD recorder market for one. They left after losing a class action lawsuit that focused on their recorders not meeting the DVD spec fully.

Left existing products as is, with no firmware updates to fix operational issues that were present.

Not their finest hour, but the market for those devices was pretty insignificant compared to the TV market.

I'll believe Pioneer is going to re-enter the TV market when I see a new Studebaker drive past my house.

cajieboy;16958066

[Bazzi, You may "feel" Pioneer deal has already been done w/their Kuro tech, but that doesn't make it so.]

Matey, I never said Pioneer were done with the Kuro Tech - What I stated very clearly was that I "felt" that although not impossible, it was highly improbable Pioneer would would be back in the TV manufacturing business as a sole in-house producer. I also stated that if they do come back, it will likely be a either a partnership with someone else or as a OEM product re-branded/tweaked to their specs. Why do I say that? because that has been the traditional path for CE companies when in dire fiscal trouble and when they wish to remain a potent market force but are unable to do alone - just look at why JVC merged with Kenwood. I also highlighted the fact they they may have given licence to Others to use the Kuro tech. Then again, they may not have - I do not know and neither does anyone else outside of Pioneer and those they may have elected to share that information with. That is why I said it was my feeling and never claimed it to be fact. You have your viewpoint - although perfectly valid - it may also be just as inaccurate and not fact either.

[Also,why do you "feel" it's improbable that Pioneer would not re-emerge in the display business?]

With respect mate, I suggest you read some of Pioneer's recent business reports, share dividends, market analysis and viewpoints from investment professionals. Until recently, not a single bank was prepared to lend Pioneer money and it's value as a company fell to nearly 8% of what it once was - it was dangerously close to folding or being taken over. It will take them many, many years to get back into the black (the markets say this), which is why they have gone back to focusing on their traditional core markets that they know and are strong in. If you think they will be able to make up a 90% loss in share value in a few years when virtually no CE company in history has able to have done so during a global recession, then I invite you to sell everything thing of value you have bar your mother, wife & daughters & buy shares in Pioneer expecting such a result in that time period. Pioneer has a board, shareholders and investors to answer to - the new money that has come in from investors who want that money targeted to specific core markets which do not cater for HDTV's. Pioneer have no money at present to re-emerge back into the HDTV market and cannot do so again until they make up for current losses - potential future profits from current investments are tied by negotiation to the sectors invested in unless you feel Honda gave Pioneer money to produce OEM car audio but would rather Pioneer invest it in HDTV's again - I cannot be certain but I seriously doubt if that is what the CEO of Honda envisioned what Pioneer will do their money!

Let me ask you this: You are a Investment Bank, Capital Venture Company, another CE Company, Business Group, Government or State Funder, Money Broker/Lender etc who will only lend if they envision a relatively safe investment with high returns,. You do not care if a product is made from crap or Kryptonite.

1) Do you honestly think your board will allow investment money for Pioneer to re-enter the HDTV market when Pioneer's current and stated business strategy to return to profitability within the next 5 to 10 years lies in it core markets that do not include HDTV's and accounts for 86% of its total business?

2) Do you not honestly think, that any investor will say, wow, last time, you had the world's undisputed king of TV's that simply could not be matched or bettered by anyone in the market and yet, despite this advantage, you allowed a mainly 14% HDTV sector of your business to not only make you lose hundreds of millions but also nearly wiped the company off the map?

3) This, despite several so called assurances of (from nearly introduction to end) constantly revised business plans that all failed in the most spectacular fashion across several international markets.

4) Now factor in that this was a first time attempt as serious global market penetration - Would your board have any investment faith in their management team or capability to bring their products to successful markets in a manner that would very likely produce high returns for them?

5) Now factor in that they ask you for this money in a very hostile and competitive sector they initially failed with with the best product when others succeeded with a much lesser one.

6) Now factor in that they will take into account Pioneer let go of most of their key brains and staff (a few tweaking at head office simply won't cut it) and 200 or so of their best brains have even gone to a competitor. They have also closed down/sold most of their dedicated manufacturing facilities and cannot afford to run any existing ones to full capacity until the demand justifies it and factories operating at even 70% incur massive losses.

7) Now factor in why you or your board would want to invest money into a product line that the brand itself said it cannot sustain at current market pricing levels for & to the standard produced.

8) Now factor, when it will take many years to get back to the black for Pioneer, why a investor that at any time (let alone a in a recession) always seeks a minimum risk, high return venture would invest when there is absolutely nothing in the pot to carry the venture (from an investment POV) to support an exemplary product that despite gaining almost unparalleled praise and awards globally cannot carry it self to profitability in the marketplace?

9) Now factor in that in addition to the above & with every other investment group not showing even a blink of interest into such a venture why your board would have any interest especially if they ask, "Well, last time they failed with a clean slate and what makes us expect they they will succeed again with our money on debt ridden one (especially if the same team is running the show)?

10) Just think, Sony, Samsung, LG, Toshiba etc who sell millions of sets each (numbers that Pioneer can only dream about) and these millions of sets fall way behind the Pioneer's in terms of performance. These companies know that with the Pioneer tech, who ever gets it would pretty much wipe out any & all competition and dominate the market - then why did they not buy up each & every single Pioneer share at the rock bottom bargain price of about 89 Yen or at about 8% Company value? It is peanuts compared to what they have invested elsewhere in new factories & joint ventures and yet they still did not do so? So are Sony, Samsung, LG, Toshiba etc a bunch of investment idiots too?

11) Factor in, that even if Pioneer wanted to get back into in-house full HDTV production they are not fiscally able to do so - period. The only way at present and for the foreseeable future is via external interest and investment

12) I could go on & on but finally ask yourself, as much as you may sell your children for the love of the products - would you right now invest every single dime you have & borrow to the max to enter into such a venture? If so, go right ahead and have total faith in your "feelings".

[Afterall, Pioneer still holds the King Crown in flat panel displays, and already has a tremendous brand name recognition around the world for producing quality products.]

So did Fujitsu - look what happened there - history has given you factual information on what happened in almost an identical scenario.

[I think and "feel", that if there was any other company that could enter or re-enter this display market, Pioneer would be first on the list.]

Touche! Just like my "feelings", yours are not fact either. Like I said earlier, not many else think so but you are more than welcome to exercise the courage of your convictions (or are "feelings" just feelings now) and approach a venture capital company with an aim into raising capital for such a venture or other than that help Pioneer quicker achieve this by buying all the shares you can.

[That statement about OLED displays will all pretty much be the same in performance is nonsense.]

Never said the would be the same - What I said was that "The performance gap between brands should be much closer" (note the word 'should'!) It may be, it may not be - you did not specifically qualify why it was nonsense without specific reference to the actual tech - if you notice, I also said "If I understand the tech correctly". From what I have read OLED has by it's very nature, certain generic advantages that will be common to all panels and those advantages is expected to bring a very noticeable increase in performance due to the tech itself and this was the reason for stating why the performance gap between brands "should' be much "closer"!

["When have you ever seen parity across the spectrum in any CE products, let alone TV's? Do all Plasma TV's look the same to you? Do all LCD TV's look the same to you? Did all CRT's look the same to you? Do all projectors look the same? See how ridiculous that sounds? I think you'd better start over w/that comment.]

With respect matey, I think you had better learn to read what is written and not what you perceive - I never claimed parity between a spectrum of CE products so why you bring it up its bemusing - all I stated was that " with OLED, performances should be much closer across brands due to the nature of the tech if I understand correctly" which is hardly the same was what you accuse me of being ridiculous for! If anyone needs to start over on a point or is being ridiculous, again with respect, I think it is you!

[As for Pioneer's management, I'm sure they have done a lot more internal study and post prespective analysis that caused their exit from the display market than all the Monday Morning Quarterbacking you can heap on them, but all the same maybe you could email them w/a few pointers.]


Dude, I have been nothing but sincere & respectful to you and there is no need for your cheap sarcasm just because you may disagree with something I state. Every time you have found difference you come out with dismissive comments as if you are some sort of authority on the matter and then do not ever back up what you say with facts, data or evidence. If by reporting the truth, your character responds with insults then that says more about your maturity or lack to be blunt. Tell you what, meet me in London or I will meet you in any major US city and I will show you exactly what pointers I have been able to give in my capacity as a BDM for a number of International & European National & Multinational companies - quite a few of which have been a number of CE companies and even some of those mentioned here. You bring all your RFP's, Market Segmentation Studies, Product Viability Studies, Marketing & Business Plans, Sales Strategies etc and I will bring mine and we will see who come out more credible. Verification should be conducted by independent mediators like a prominent globally recognized & represented legal firm. Loser pays for all costs, expenses, fees etc and seeing as you are so confident of your own factual "feelings", why not back them up with more than your mouth for a change? Unfortunately, I am not endowed with with the benefit of mystical, magical "factual feelings" as if derived from either your own ego or a crystal ball (mine are just normal human ones) and therefore I am probably nowhere near as wealthy as you but I will match any wager you care to bet between say USD $10K & up to USD $50K in addition to that already stated. Tell, you what, I'll even help you out as a head start - posts on these forums will probably not be considered as suitable data!


Bazzy!

Fan based loyalty to a company or a sports team knows no logic or reason.

The Cubs fill Wrigley Field every time they play. This is not based on logic or reason.

People will think that Pioneer is just playing a hide and seek game, eventually to come out with the super TV someday. This is not based on anything other than wishful thinking for a brand they have enjoyed.

cajieboy;16958066

[Bazzi, You may "feel" Pioneer deal has already been done w/their Kuro tech, but that doesn't make it so.]

Matey, I never said Pioneer were done with the Kuro Tech - What I stated very clearly was that I "felt" that although not impossible, it was highly improbable Pioneer would would be back in the TV manufacturing business as a sole in-house producer. I also stated that if they do come back, it will likely be a either a partnership with someone else or as a OEM product re-branded/tweaked to their specs. Why do I say that? because that has been the traditional path for CE companies when in dire fiscal trouble and when they wish to remain a potent market force but are unable to do alone - just look at why JVC merged with Kenwood. I also highlighted the fact they they may have given licence to Others to use the Kuro tech. Then again, they may not have - I do not know and neither does anyone else outside of Pioneer and those they may have elected to share that information with. That is why I said it was my feeling and never claimed it to be fact. You have your viewpoint - although perfectly valid - it may also be just as inaccurate and not fact either.

[Also,why do you "feel" it's improbable that Pioneer would not re-emerge in the display business?]

With respect mate, I suggest you read some of Pioneer's recent business reports, share dividends, market analysis and viewpoints from investment professionals. Until recently, not a single bank was prepared to lend Pioneer money and it's value as a company fell to nearly 8% of what it once was - it was dangerously close to folding or being taken over. It will take them many, many years to get back into the black (the markets say this), which is why they have gone back to focusing on their traditional core markets that they know and are strong in. If you think they will be able to make up a 90% loss in share value in a few years when virtually no CE company in history has able to have done so during a global recession, then I invite you to sell everything thing of value you have bar your mother, wife & daughters & buy shares in Pioneer expecting such a result in that time period. Pioneer has a board, shareholders and investors to answer to - the new money that has come in from investors who want that money targeted to specific core markets which do not cater for HDTV's. Pioneer have no money at present to re-emerge back into the HDTV market and cannot do so again until they make up for current losses - potential future profits from current investments are tied by negotiation to the sectors invested in unless you feel Honda gave Pioneer money to produce OEM car audio but would rather Pioneer invest it in HDTV's again - I cannot be certain but I seriously doubt if that is what the CEO of Honda envisioned what Pioneer will do their money!

Let me ask you this: You are a Investment Bank, Capital Venture Company, another CE Company, Business Group, Government or State Funder, Money Broker/Lender etc who will only lend if they envision a relatively safe investment with high returns,. You do not care if a product is made from crap or Kryptonite.

1) Do you honestly think your board will allow investment money for Pioneer to re-enter the HDTV market when Pioneer's current and stated business strategy to return to profitability within the next 5 to 10 years lies in it core markets that do not include HDTV's and accounts for 86% of its total business?

2) Do you not honestly think, that any investor will say, wow, last time, you had the world's undisputed king of TV's that simply could not be matched or bettered by anyone in the market and yet, despite this advantage, you allowed a mainly 14% HDTV sector of your business to not only make you lose hundreds of millions but also nearly wiped the company off the map?

3) This, despite several so called assurances of (from nearly introduction to end) constantly revised business plans that all failed in the most spectacular fashion across several international markets.

4) Now factor in that this was a first time attempt as serious global market penetration - Would your board have any investment faith in their management team or capability to bring their products to successful markets in a manner that would very likely produce high returns for them?

5) Now factor in that they ask you for this money in a very hostile and competitive sector they initially failed with with the best product when others succeeded with a much lesser one.

6) Now factor in that they will take into account Pioneer let go of most of their key brains and staff (a few tweaking at head office simply won't cut it) and 200 or so of their best brains have even gone to a competitor. They have also closed down/sold most of their dedicated manufacturing facilities and cannot afford to run any existing ones to full capacity until the demand justifies it and factories operating at even 70% incur massive losses.

7) Now factor in why you or your board would want to invest money into a product line that the brand itself said it cannot sustain at current market pricing levels for & to the standard produced.

8) Now factor, when it will take many years to get back to the black for Pioneer, why a investor that at any time (let alone a in a recession) always seeks a minimum risk, high return venture would invest when there is absolutely nothing in the pot to carry the venture (from an investment POV) to support an exemplary product that despite gaining almost unparalleled praise and awards globally cannot carry it self to profitability in the marketplace?

9) Now factor in that in addition to the above & with every other investment group not showing even a blink of interest into such a venture why your board would have any interest especially if they ask, "Well, last time they failed with a clean slate and what makes us expect they they will succeed again with our money on debt ridden one (especially if the same team is running the show)?

10) Just think, Sony, Samsung, LG, Toshiba etc who sell millions of sets each (numbers that Pioneer can only dream about) and these millions of sets fall way behind the Pioneer's in terms of performance. These companies know that with the Pioneer tech, who ever gets it would pretty much wipe out any & all competition and dominate the market - then why did they not buy up each & every single Pioneer share at the rock bottom bargain price of about 89 Yen or at about 8% Company value? It is peanuts compared to what they have invested elsewhere in new factories & joint ventures and yet they still did not do so? So are Sony, Samsung, LG, Toshiba etc a bunch of investment idiots too?

11) Factor in, that even if Pioneer wanted to get back into in-house full HDTV production they are not fiscally able to do so - period. The only way at present and for the foreseeable future is via external interest and investment

12) I could go on & on but finally ask yourself, as much as you may sell your children for the love of the products - would you right now invest every single dime you have & borrow to the max to enter into such a venture? If so, go right ahead and have total faith in your "feelings".

[Afterall, Pioneer still holds the King Crown in flat panel displays, and already has a tremendous brand name recognition around the world for producing quality products.]

So did Fujitsu - look what happened there - history has given you factual information on what happened in almost an identical scenario.

[I think and "feel", that if there was any other company that could enter or re-enter this display market, Pioneer would be first on the list.]

Touche! Just like my "feelings", yours are not fact either. Like I said earlier, not many else think so but you are more than welcome to exercise the courage of your convictions (or are "feelings" just feelings now) and approach a venture capital company with an aim into raising capital for such a venture or other than that help Pioneer quicker achieve this by buying all the shares you can.

[That statement about OLED displays will all pretty much be the same in performance is nonsense.]

Never said the would be the same - What I said was that "The performance gap between brands should be much closer" (note the word 'should'!) It may be, it may not be - you did not specifically qualify why it was nonsense without specific reference to the actual tech - if you notice, I also said "If I understand the tech correctly". From what I have read OLED has by it's very nature, certain generic advantages that will be common to all panels and those advantages is expected to bring a very noticeable increase in performance due to the tech itself and this was the reason for stating why the performance gap between brands "should' be much "closer"!

["When have you ever seen parity across the spectrum in any CE products, let alone TV's? Do all Plasma TV's look the same to you? Do all LCD TV's look the same to you? Did all CRT's look the same to you? Do all projectors look the same? See how ridiculous that sounds? I think you'd better start over w/that comment.]

With respect matey, I think you had better learn to read what is written and not what you perceive - I never claimed parity between a spectrum of CE products so why you bring it up its bemusing - all I stated was that " with OLED, performances should be much closer across brands due to the nature of the tech if I understand correctly" which is hardly the same was what you accuse me of being ridiculous for! If anyone needs to start over on a point or is being ridiculous, again with respect, I think it is you!

[As for Pioneer's management, I'm sure they have done a lot more internal study and post prespective analysis that caused their exit from the display market than all the Monday Morning Quarterbacking you can heap on them, but all the same maybe you could email them w/a few pointers.]


Dude, I have been nothing but sincere & respectful to you and there is no need for your cheap sarcasm just because you may disagree with something I state. Every time you have found difference you come out with dismissive comments as if you are some sort of authority on the matter and then do not ever back up what you say with facts, data or evidence. If by reporting the truth, your character responds with insults then that says more about your maturity or lack to be blunt. Tell you what, meet me in London or I will meet you in any major US city and I will show you exactly what pointers I have been able to give in my capacity as a BDM for a number of International & European National & Multinational companies - quite a few of which have been a number of CE companies and even some of those mentioned here. You bring all your RFP's, Market Segmentation Studies, Product Viability Studies, Marketing & Business Plans, Sales Strategies etc and I will bring mine and we will see who come out more credible. Verification should be conducted by independent mediators like a prominent globally recognized & represented legal firm. Loser pays for all costs, expenses, fees etc and seeing as you are so confident of your own factual "feelings", why not back them up with more than your mouth for a change? Unfortunately, I am not endowed with with the benefit of mystical, magical "factual feelings" as if derived from either your own ego or a crystal ball (mine are just normal human ones) and therefore I am probably nowhere near as wealthy as you but I will match any wager you care to bet between say USD $10K & up to USD $50K in addition to that already stated. Tell, you what, I'll even help you out as a head start - posts on these forums will probably not be considered as suitable data!


Bazzy!

Bazzy, write a book next time!:D Really, a good read and very informative. Thank you. Finally, an intellectual side to the debate, and appreciate your effort. I actually agree w/most of it, and the parts I disagree I will leave it alone. I have no such in depth analysis as you presented, and I'm relying more on what some Pioneer insiders have told me, which may or may not pan out. I guess what it all boils down to is my years of seeing CE companies come and go, but to leave a display business that you are the best of the best never to return seems so wrong on many levels. We can only wait to see what Pioneer will finally do, but I think if GM read your financial doom & gloom 60 days ago they would all be jumping off the building. Cheers mate, and really appreciate the excellent post.:D

PS: Now, back to my Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms" album. Checkout the songs "Romeo & Juliet" & "Tunnel Of Love". Should be in the Rock n' Roll Hall Of Fame.

At the Panasonic Convention 2009 in Amsterdam (March 2009)
Panasonic presented their evolutionary roadmap for the ongoing
advancement of Viera flat screen HDTVs : in 2010, NeoPDP ECO: Infinity:1 contrast is promised!

At the Panasonic Convention 2009 in Amsterdam (March 2009)
Panasonic presented their evolutionary roadmap for the ongoing
advancement of Viera flat screen HDTVs : in 2010, NeoPDP ECO: Infinity:1 contrast is promised!
Hold on for the complaints that infinity is just not enough!

Not if it's actually true and not just marketing nonsense as it currently is.

Not if it's actually true and not just marketing nonsense as it currently is.Good luck measuring infinity...

True 0 luminance blacks = infinite contrast.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp. Acheiving it is.

True 0 luminance blacks = infinite contrast.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp. Acheiving it is.

I think the problem is that you can't measure zero luminance - at least not with todays instruments.

bye
Benny42

Good luck measuring infinity...

Haha, my glass of juice almost spilled after reading this one.

You indeed deserve a medal for that post hehe. :)

I think the problem is that you can't measure zero luminance - at least not with todays instruments.

bye
Benny42

The average light meter couldn't, but specialized equipment exists that could come close enough. You could also see it under the proper conditions. If you fed a such a display a 0% black signal in a pitch black room, the room would remain pitch black. There would be absolutely no glow from the screen.

The average light meter couldn't, but specialized equipment exists that could come close enough.

"Close enough" to infinity? ;)

You could also see it under the proper conditions. If you fed a such a display a 0% black signal in a pitch black room, the room would remain pitch black. There would be absolutely no glow from the screen.

With this setup you only "measure" the limitations of your eyes.
I believe you that you are satisfied with this but this hardly is scientific as your eyes aren't necessarily better (or worse) than mine or anybody elses.

bye
Benny42

If you eliminate idle pixel charge you eliminate black luminance. There wouldn't be anything to measure at that point. Your blacks would be the same as if you had shut the TV off.

Guess this is why those ad guys decided to push "infinity".

Next sales pitch will be that tv "a "is better than "b" but the spectrum of light is so vast that the human eye can't see it. It's worth the extra money because the invisible elements of the picture register with the brain for a better viewing experience.

Inside the sets are the same. Outside the more expensive one has a sticker that say's "phycho vision" or some such nonsense.

[QUOTE=Bazzy;16953535]



I feel they have already done a deal with their Kuro tech with someone (either Panasonic or Samsung) as Pioneer have stated themselves that they expect the G9 Kuro's performance to be surpassed in 2010. QUOTE]


When did Pioneer say this?

April of 09 in their annual report. They sold the Plasma display patents to Panasonic for $66 million dollars. Panasonic has also announced that they have employed the Pioneer Kuro engineers.

The information below was found by "sharpbandaid" and posted in a different thread.

b. Transfer of Patents for Plasma Display Panels to
Panasonic Corporation
The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display
panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of
Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies
had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes
part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans
for a full withdrawal from the display business.

Following Otani, Matsushita Managing Executive Officer Ken Morita made a speech. Matsushita has, "in one fell swoop, obtained engineers that are robust enough to accelerate development," thanks to the transfer of Pioneer engineers, he said. And he announced Matsushita will develop a 42-inch class, approximately 150W panel that can be mounted on a wall targeting 2010.

Panasonic Kuro coming to a store near you soon!

Wow, a 42" set that can be mounted on a wall!

Will wonders never cease?

[QUOTE=gmarceau;16957810]

April of 09 in their annual report. They sold the Plasma display patents to Panasonic for $66 million dollars. Panasonic has also announced that they have employed the Pioneer Kuro engineers.

The information below was found by "sharpbandaid" and posted in a different thread.

b. Transfer of Patents for Plasma Display Panels to
Panasonic Corporation
The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display
panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of
Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies
had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes
part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans
for a full withdrawal from the display business.

Following Otani, Matsushita Managing Executive Officer Ken Morita made a speech. Matsushita has, "in one fell swoop, obtained engineers that are robust enough to accelerate development," thanks to the transfer of Pioneer engineers, he said. And he announced Matsushita will develop a 42-inch class, approximately 150W panel that can be mounted on a wall targeting 2010.

Panasonic Kuro coming to a store near you soon!

This sounds like re-hashed old news to me. If you remember, in 2007 Panasonic and Pioneer had a deal cooked up whereby Panasonic would be providing pdp modules to Pioneer via their all-new factory that Panasonic was building. Pioneer transferred their pdp module engineers and many glass factory employees over to Panasonic. Certain patents invlolving Pioneer pdp modules & mfg'ing process, etc. was to come along with this deal. The deal went sour when Pioneer announced it was exiting the display biz, which I have been told was partly due to Panasonic delaying the opening of their new factory that was to produce the pdp panels for Pioneer. True? Maybe, maybe not. But what's important, there is no evidence of news of Pioneer selling Panasonic their color filter and video processing technology/patents, which is 2/3 of the Kuro Secret Sauce. So, you may see a better glass from Panasonic thanks to Pioneer's patents, but I am extremely doubtful you will see much else in the way of Pioneer's advanced video technology.

So they actually said in the report that they expect the panel to surpass a 9G kuro? It seems like they're talking about the panel specs, not saying it will beat a 9G. I really don't see this thing surpassing the KRP 500s.

That would be great if it does, but I'll wait to see what happens next month.

Kind of makes you wonder WTF panasonic engineers have been doing until now...

This sounds like re-hashed old news to me. If you remember, in 2007 Panasonic and Pioneer had a deal cooked up whereby Panasonic would be providing pdp modules to Pioneer via their all-new factory that Panasonic was building. Pioneer transferred their pdp module engineers and many glass factory employees over to Panasonic. Certain patents invlolving Pioneer pdp modules & mfg'ing process, etc. was to come along with this deal. The deal went sour when Pioneer announced it was exiting the display biz, which I have been told was partly due to Panasonic delaying the opening of their new factory that was to produce the pdp panels for Pioneer. True? Maybe, maybe not. But what's important, there is no evidence of news of Pioneer selling Panasonic their color filter and video processing technology/patents, which is 2/3 of the Kuro Secret Sauce. So, you may see a better glass from Panasonic thanks to Pioneer's patents, but I am extremely doubtful you will see much else in the way of Pioneer's advanced video technology.

The patent sales to Panasonic is true. Wall St. Journal reported on it.

It is in the Pioneer Quarterly Report.

http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/annual_reports/2009/pdf/2009e.pdf

Page 50

"b. Transfer of Patents for Plasma Display Panels to
Panasonic Corporation
The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display
panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of
Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies
had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes
part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans
for a full withdrawal from the display business."

They are just ending up their current Kuro distribution, and are getting completely out of the flat panel business.

I do not know what, if any, Pioneer engineers have been hired by Panasonic, but at least the Kuro patents will be applied to future Panasonic plasma models.

The good news is that Panasonic has just made a large investment, which means that they are in the Plasma business for the long haul. You should expect to see dramatic improvements in CMS accuracy and black levels in the 2010 Panasonics.

IMO, if Pioneer sold their entire portfolio on PDP tech for only 66M$ then it was a very poor deal.

"Entire" would include patents on:

CLEAR driving
Waffle
DEC
T-electrode
CEL layer
CEL on phosphor
KURO driving
ECC
signal processing
.
.
etc

IMO, if Pioneer sold their entire portfolio on PDP tech for only 66M$ then it was a very poor deal.

"Entire" would include patents on:

CLEAR driving
Waffle
DEC
T-electrode
CEL layer
CEL on phosphor
KURO driving
ECC
signal processing
.
.
etc

EXACTLY...people are confusing "Pioneer Panels" to mean ALL of the Pioneer Kuro video tech. Not so.

Well it sure reads like they must have tranferred all patents to Panasonic.

"The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans for a full withdrawal from the display business."


Panasonic may have been the only purchaser available to them. Who knows what contractual restrictions had been signed off on when Pioneer, Panasonic, and Hitachi formed that Plasma development group. They may have agreed to not sell any of the intellectual property to anyone outside the group.

Well it sure reads like they must have tranferred all patents to Panasonic.

"The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans for a full withdrawal from the display business."


Panasonic may have been the only purchaser available to them. Who knows what contractual restrictions had been signed off on when Pioneer, Panasonic, and Hitachi formed that Plasma development group. They may have agreed to not sell any of the intellectual property to anyone outside the group.

Greenland, I don't think so. I got my info from Robert at Value Electronics that told me Pioneer still has their main engineers and doing R&D, and still owns their clear drive, filters and video processing patents. To me, your quote from April looks to be only their pdp modules and panels. Maybe I'm wrong, but as Xrox noted, that would be a very cheap price indeed for ALL the Kuro tech.

I got my info from Robert at Value Electronics

Go to pioneer.jp (http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/index-e.html) for some real info. Pioneer released the info last week at their investor meeting.

So much for car electronics being safe :eek: Car Electronics operating revenue decreased 22.0% year on
year to ¥291.7 billion because of lower sales of both car audio
products and car navigation systems, partly due to lackluster
auto sales worldwide.

I wonder what will become of Pioneer, forget coming back into the display industry, will they even be in business in 5 years?!

Greenland, I don't think so. I got my info from Robert at Value Electronics that told me Pioneer still has their main engineers and doing R&D, and still owns their clear drive, filters and video processing patents. To me, your quote from April looks to be only their pdp modules and panels. Maybe I'm wrong, but as Xrox noted, that would be a very cheap price indeed for ALL the Kuro tech.


To me the key wording is this:

"This constitutes part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans for a full withdrawal from the display business"

That is clear cut. "a full withdrawal from the display business". That does not leave any wiggle room.

I appreciate Robert, and what he provides, but he was also telling us, that his sources were telling him that Pioneer was not going to close down Plasma operations, right up to the point where they actually announced that they were. His sources may be in marketing, and still have products to sell, so they may be sugar coating the bad news. In other words; they may be telling Robert what he wants to hear.

I am convinced that Pioneer is never going to return to the Plasma business.
We have to be careful to avoid falling into the Audie trap, of falling into a perpetual state of denial, where we seize on every dubious scraps of rumors, to avoid moving on to the acceptance stage.:)

So much for car electronics being safe :eek:

I wonder what will become of Pioneer, forget coming back into the display industry, will they even be in business in 5 years?!

Yikes, but I hope it does bounce back as I like there other products such as Blu-ray products and AV receivers (ie. like their god-like Susano receiver).

I just hope that they're hear to stay (cause I'd rather buy Pioneer Pro DJ products instead of stuff from Technics).

Yikes, but I hope it does bounce back as I like there other products such as Blu-ray products and AV receivers (ie. like their god-like Susano receiver).

I just hope that they're hear to stay (cause I'd rather buy Pioneer Pro DJ products instead of stuff from Technics).
I don't think Pioneer's survival as a company has as much to do with their products as with the quality of their management decisions.

Decision wise they seem to be fairly consistent in leaving product markets over time and trying to concentrate on what is left.

Hard to believe that they had to drop out of the TV game when they had what most considered the best pq in the industry. If you can't figure out a way to stay in the market with a killer product, maybe it's best that they go back to car stereos.

I have noticed that more auto manufacturers are making their cars less friendly to after market stereos. Getting harder to just slip out the old and in with the new, without encountering dash modifications. This may slow down the after market car stereo market, which would fall right into Pioneer management's unique ability to zig when they should have zagged.

Greenland, I don't think so. I got my info from Robert at Value Electronics that told me Pioneer still has their main engineers and doing R&D, and still owns their clear drive, filters and video processing patents. To me, your quote from April looks to be only their pdp modules and panels. Maybe I'm wrong, but as Xrox noted, that would be a very cheap price indeed for ALL the Kuro tech.

Roberts a nice guy but I believe he was fed a line of bull. I also believe that his source was fed the original line of bull. I've been there myself- fed the BS and then the axe fell. OH yeah were going to .....................

They sold the whole lot of patents. Pioneer said they are exiting the "Display" end of the home market. If the top engineers were still there I'm sure they are reassigned to other jobs.

To me the key wording is this:

"This constitutes part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans for a full withdrawal from the display business"

That is clear cut. "a full withdrawal from the display business". That does not leave any wiggle room.

I appreciate Robert, and what he provides, but he was also telling us, that his sources were telling him that Pioneer was not going to close down Plasma operations, right up to the point where they actually announced that they were. His sources may be in marketing, and still have products to sell, so they may be sugar coating the bad news. In other words; they may be telling Robert what he wants to hear.

I am convinced that Pioneer is never going to return to the Plasma business.
We have to be careful to avoid falling into the Audie trap, of falling into a perpetual state of denial, where we seize on every dubious scraps of rumors, to avoid moving on to the acceptance stage.:)

Maybe everyone is right in their assessment of Pioneer, and I have to admit it doesn't look good for them in the display dept. Perhaps Robert has been given the wrong info on the matter. "Acceptance" does seem like the correct path at this time, and hopefully we will see some Kuro tech in other mfg'ers displays in the near future.

So much for car electronics being safe :eek:

I wonder what will become of Pioneer, forget coming back into the display industry, will they even be in business in 5 years?!

They better honor the warranty on their products or expect to be sued.:mad:

Maybe everyone is right in their assessment of Pioneer, and I have to admit it doesn't look good for them in the display dept. Perhaps Robert has been given the wrong info on the matter. "Acceptance" does seem like the correct path at this time, and hopefully we will see some Kuro tech in other mfg'ers displays in the near future.

I knew it all along:D

Last years pioneer PDPs out-class this years LCDs and yet there is no future in PDP technology? And year before last years PDPs outclass last years PDPs, and panasonic and samsung made huge steps in their panels this year............

You certainly have a right to your opinion, after all that is what it is.

So I guess this isn't about picture quality.

Its always about PQ to a degree. If it was soley about PQ we would have the technologies that are vastly superior to anything we have today.

I guess it's about what a consumer will buy.
Buy what looks pretty at best buy, look at size and price range.

Yep. I saw a Panny Plasma next to a Samung LCD, and still, no matter how hard they try, they can't make plasma look better than LCD in the store, LCD blows them away!!

Obviously they got out of the PDP game because it was a good financial decision, not because they didn't make good TVs. But as well all know from the LCD forum, the sets the sell the most ARE the best sets........... so go VIZIO! (not really).

They got out of the PDP business because they know PDP is on the way out. There is no market for overpriced dim looking plasmas.

Its much better to sell sets that cost nothing and over-price them, and sell them to un-informed consumers that don't care much about PQ or build quality

That's the market. I told you that Pioneer could not contend with the power of the market. Just like vinyl gave away to CD, PDP must give away to LCD.

I was really getting used to not seeing auditor's posts and now he shows up to tell us how much he knows.

Like he says everyone has an opinion and his is located in a certain body orfice.:D

I knew it all along:D

Ha, that's funny. Here's something you've got wrong and I'll explain. It is NOT Plasma displays that are going out, but rather LCD. Once OLED gets going, all those itty bitty LCD screens in cellphones, PDA's, handheld gaming, GPS, car toys, laptop & computer screens, and every small screen display around will transform from LCD to OLED. I doubt LCD can survive this major loss in the market that makes them the most money. Plasma TV's only compete on displays of 42+", and it's really their market in the TV's above 50+", and won't be touched. The large screen display market will be the very last frontier for OLED to dominate, but we're talking quite a fews years down the road. For LCD, the OLED video tech spells doom.

Ha, that's funny. Here's something you've got wrong and I'll explain. It is NOT Plasma displays that are going out, but rather LCD. Once OLED gets going, all those itty bitty LCD screens in cellphones, PDA's, handheld gaming, GPS, car toys, laptop & computer screens, and every small screen display around will transform from LCD to OLED. I doubt LCD can survive this major loss in the market that makes them the most money. Plasma TV's only compete on displays of 42+", and it's really their market in the TV's above 50+", and won't be touched. The large screen display market will be the very last frontier for OLED to dominate, but we're talking quite a fews years down the road. For LCD, the OLED video tech spells doom.

Quote: In other words; they may be telling Robert what he wants to hear.
more likely a small retailer telling others an opinion HE wants them to believe ?

I am convinced that Pioneer is never going to return to the Plasma business.
We have to be careful to avoid falling into the Audie trap, of falling into a perpetual state of denial, where we seize on every dubious scraps of rumors, to avoid moving on to the acceptance stage. (I agree)

from Pioneer corporation and other news reports:
The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display
panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of
Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies
had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes
part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans
for a full withdrawal from the display business.

The company said it will also adjust its headquarters and R&D functions to a scale that matches the new business structure.

We will completely withdraw from the display business after ending plasma TV sales by the
end of fiscal 2010.

The company will roll out two 50-inch Kuro TVs (RP-500A and KRP-500M) and two 60-inch models (KRP-600A and KRP-600M) starting April 1. But the 2,500 50-inch models and another 500 60-inch TVs will be the last Kuro products. (damn cracks and all)

Pioneer says they will take care of after service in Japan until 2017 (details about other markets aren’t available at this point). After establishing the high-quality Kuro brand in September 2007, the company managed to sell 300,000 Kuro plasma TVs in Japan and 2.8 million units worldwide.



I've owned 4 plasma's (two new Kuro's) - zero problems with any Pioneer display. But they're done with display's, admit it. They ONLY achieved a PLASMA market share in the mid teens. The OLED they're involved with is OEM displays for auto navigation. Its stated in their financial's. They didn't leak any word to some retailer in rural NY about a secret plan for OLED HDTV's. (I'm sure developing OLED would make so much sense to a company that is in dire straights and minimal cash). It's NOT fully developed and its not their core strength.

Panasonic and Samsung are hoping (praying) that their current plasma market share survives. Would YOU invest your current retirement savings in either companies future for plasma ? Would you invest in Pioneer as a company?

good luck

Wow, a 42" set that can be mounted on a wall! Will wonders never cease?Obviously the point was that it only draws 150 watts which is a big deal, not the fact that it can be mounted on the wall. Why the sarcasm?

Hi,

"the company managed to sell 300,000 Kuro plasma TVs in Japan and 2.8 million units worldwide."

It is indeed very surprising that sales figures in native Japan during the overall period were so very low considering that in relation to earnings and the general global pricing structures, the sets were not really overly expensive in Japan. Add to the fact that many Japanese very regularly update their technology almost continuously driven by the need & desire to have the best, latest & greatest, one would have thought sales figures there would be far higher.


Bazzy!

Quote: In other words; they may be telling Robert what he wants to hear.
more likely a small retailer telling others an opinion HE wants them to believe ?

I am convinced that Pioneer is never going to return to the Plasma business.
We have to be careful to avoid falling into the Audie trap, of falling into a perpetual state of denial, where we seize on every dubious scraps of rumors, to avoid moving on to the acceptance stage. (I agree)

from Pioneer corporation and other news reports:
The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display
panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of
Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies
had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes
part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans
for a full withdrawal from the display business.

The company said it will also adjust its headquarters and R&D functions to a scale that matches the new business structure.

We will completely withdraw from the display business after ending plasma TV sales by the
end of fiscal 2010.

The company will roll out two 50-inch Kuro TVs (RP-500A and KRP-500M) and two 60-inch models (KRP-600A and KRP-600M) starting April 1. But the 2,500 50-inch models and another 500 60-inch TVs will be the last Kuro products. (damn cracks and all)

Pioneer says they will take care of after service in Japan until 2017 (details about other markets aren’t available at this point). After establishing the high-quality Kuro brand in September 2007, the company managed to sell 300,000 Kuro plasma TVs in Japan and 2.8 million units worldwide.



I've owned 4 plasma's (two new Kuro's) - zero problems with any Pioneer display. But they're done with display's, admit it. They ONLY achieved a PLASMA market share in the mid teens. The OLED they're involved with is OEM displays for auto navigation. Its stated in their financial's. They didn't leak any word to some retailer in rural NY about a secret plan for OLED HDTV's. (I'm sure developing OLED would make so much sense to a company that is in dire straights and minimal cash). It's NOT fully developed and its not their core strength.

Panasonic and Samsung are hoping (praying) that their current plasma market share survives. Would YOU invest your current retirement savings in either companies future for plasma ? Would you invest in Pioneer as a company?

good luck

Correct on all points. It's the facts, and that's that. End of Pioneer, and end of story.

Some people change their minds quickly :rolleyes: What happened to the new OLED weapon of mass destruction ;)

[snip] They didn't leak any word to some retailer in rural NY about a secret plan for OLED HDTV's. [snip]

I'm just chiming in with respect to Robert. I've met him and bought a TV from him. He is an upstanding businessman. Furthermore, his store is located in Scarsdale, NY, which is upscale suburban and definitely not rural.

[QUOTE=gmarceau;16957810]

April of 09 in their annual report. They sold the Plasma display patents to Panasonic for $66 million dollars. Panasonic has also announced that they have employed the Pioneer Kuro engineers.

The information below was found by "sharpbandaid" and posted in a different thread.

b. Transfer of Patents for Plasma Display Panels to
Panasonic Corporation
The Company resolved to transfer its patents for plasma display
panels and modules to Panasonic Corporation at the Board of
Directors’ meeting held on April 28, 2009. The two companies
had executed the agreement on May 15, 2009. This constitutes
part of the business restructuring effort in accordance with plans
for a full withdrawal from the display business.

Following Otani, Matsushita Managing Executive Officer Ken Morita made a speech. Matsushita has, "in one fell swoop, obtained engineers that are robust enough to accelerate development," thanks to the transfer of Pioneer engineers, he said. And he announced Matsushita will develop a 42-inch class, approximately 150W panel that can be mounted on a wall targeting 2010.

Panasonic Kuro coming to a store near you soon!

That's weird. Because there is no Matsushita anymore. I would have expected an official document to have "Panasonic" only. They're not using "Matsushita" anymore. They've changed the letterhead and everything.

Ha, that's funny. Here's something you've got wrong and I'll explain. It is NOT Plasma displays that are going out, but rather LCD. Once OLED gets going, all those itty bitty LCD screens in cellphones, PDA's, handheld gaming, GPS, car toys, laptop & computer screens, and every small screen display around will transform from LCD to OLED. I doubt LCD can survive this major loss in the market that makes them the most money. Plasma TV's only compete on displays of 42+", and it's really their market in the TV's above 50+", and won't be touched. The large screen display market will be the very last frontier for OLED to dominate, but we're talking quite a fews years down the road. For LCD, the OLED video tech spells doom.

Great point. I hadn't looked at it that way, but you're probably right.

;17025638']That's weird. Because there is no Matsushita anymore. I would have expected an official document to have "Panasonic" only. They're not using "Matsushita" anymore. They've changed the letterhead and everything.

The text is from two articles/sources. You might want to check the dates.

Never confuse selling HDTVs with building HDTVs. AVS members tend to think in terms of technical merit, but the sales figures are what makes the world go around.

For example, there is clearly one brand of audio gear that is marketed better than any other, and that would be Bose. The Bose brand is so successfully marketed that it gives rise to all kinds of ire from owners of other brands which are technically superior and offer better value than does Bose.

Pioneer is a great example of a Geek company. My favorite A/V store before flat panels made it big sold both Pioneer Elite RPTVs (big shiny black boxes) and lesser Panasonic RPTVs (dull charcoal gray boxes). The Pioneers were better performers and the Panasonics were better sellers, even in the late 1990's. Pioneer pursued the Geek market until the Economy broke them, now finally they will pursue a different marketing plan.

Anyone think extreme contrast will be on display next month for the 13g pannys or will the blacks (assuming we go along with panasonic launching a kuro tech plasma) match a krp 500? Ifinity:1 is subjective. If a quality meter can't read it, technically, that's infinite contrast.

I was re-reading the hometheater mag's xbr8 review and even with the led zones off there was still a slight glow on the screen.

Never confuse selling HDTVs with building HDTVs. AVS members tend to think in terms of technical merit, but the sales figures are what makes the world go around.

For example, there is clearly one brand of audio gear that is marketed better than any other, and that would be Bose. The Bose brand is so successfully marketed that it gives rise to all kinds of ire from owners of other brands which are technically superior and offer better value than does Bose.

Pioneer is a great example of a Geek company. My favorite A/V store before flat panels made it big sold both Pioneer Elite RPTVs (big shiny black boxes) and lesser Panasonic RPTVs (dull charcoal gray boxes). The Pioneers were better performers and the Panasonics were better sellers, even in the late 1990's. Pioneer pursued the Geek market until the Economy broke them, now finally they will pursue a different marketing plan.

Point well taken. However when quality was looked upon as KING as opposed to marketing PIONEER was the best, as they had the best quality. Unfortunately for those that care about quality in an item, todays world is more focused on QUANTITY as opposed to QUALITY.

Point well taken. However when quality was looked upon as KING as opposed to marketing PIONEER was the best, as they had the best quality. Unfortunately for those that care about quality in an item, todays world is more focused on QUANTITY as opposed to QUALITY.I have owned several Pioneer products, although never one of their tvs. I avoid the brand based on my experience with the quality (durability) of their products and their lack of support.

My experience is with their receivers, car stereos, and their DVD recorders. They left the DVD recorder market since.

I found that most of the Pioneer products I owned functioned as designed, but the hardware failed shortly after the warranty expired. Of course the repair costs exceeded the price of new, so out they went.

With the DVD recorders, Pioneer shafted their customers with products that didn't fully meet the DVD recording spec, and lost a class action lawsuit as a result. They also left units needing firmware upgrades in the field when they left the market.

Check out some of the threads on their DVD recorders to get a clear picture of how they sold machines with problems, and despite promises, never fixed them.

The shrinking of the company to basically a car stereo operation may say more about their focus on quality and customer care than the fact that they produced a top flight plasma tv.

By the way, I did own a Pioneer car stereo unit and it performed very well. They apparently can make a solid product there, and make money doing so.

These are just my experiences and evaluations. YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony9 View Post

[snip] They didn't leak any word to some retailer in rural NY about a secret plan for OLED HDTV's. [snip]

I'm just chiming in with respect to Robert. I've met him and bought a TV from him. He is an upstanding businessman. Furthermore, his store is located in Scarsdale, NY, which is upscale suburban and definitely not rural.
__________________
--Dean L. Surkin

A recent article, interest for all Pio owners - including upscale suburbanites:
http://www.twice.com/article/327682-Pioneer_Outlines_Strategies_For_Its_Post_Plasma_Era.php

ALSO -My various Pioneer dvd recorders the past 5(?) years still work perfect (four different models) - many think updates are needed. With the help of Citibear, I was able to discover that the "brand" of disc you use is vital, his words follow:

Anyway let me repeat, the best and easiest thing to do that prolongs the life of your recorders is to use only the TY media. These are the ONLY blanks still made in Japan under fanatical quality control using the original 2003 dye formula that every recorder can easily burn. Newer machines can burn the newer crappy media sold in stores, but it stresses them out and uses up the laser life quicker than the TY would. Start stocking up on the stuff: it only costs about $28-33 per100 delivered, and EVERY disc in EVERY spindle will burn correctly- no "coasters".

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony9 View Post

[snip] They didn't leak any word to some retailer in rural NY about a secret plan for OLED HDTV's. [snip]

I'm just chiming in with respect to Robert. I've met him and bought a TV from him. He is an upstanding businessman. Furthermore, his store is located in Scarsdale, NY, which is upscale suburban and definitely not rural.
__________________
--Dean L. Surkin

A recent article, interest for all Pio owners - including upscale suburbanites:
http://www.twice.com/article/327682-Pioneer_Outlines_Strategies_For_Its_Post_Plasma_Era.php

ALSO -My various Pioneer dvd recorders the past 5(?) years still work perfect (four different models) - many think updates are needed. With the help of Citibear, I was able to discover that the "brand" of disc you use is vital, his words follow:

Anyway let me repeat, the best and easiest thing to do that prolongs the life of your recorders is to use only the TY media. These are the ONLY blanks still made in Japan under fanatical quality control using the original 2003 dye formula that every recorder can easily burn. Newer machines can burn the newer crappy media sold in stores, but it stresses them out and uses up the laser life quicker than the TY would. Start stocking up on the stuff: it only costs about $28-33 per100 delivered, and EVERY disc in EVERY spindle will burn correctly- no "coasters".



Exacty, ...and folks seem to dismiss Robert as just another independnet Pioneer seller....wrong agagain Buckwheat.

Exacty, ...and folks seem to dismiss Robert as just another independnet Pioneer seller....wrong agagain Buckwheat.Robert is far from just another retailer. His interest in his product lines, and meeting his customer's needs exceeds the average by a country mile.

That being said, he is not infallable. His info on the HD DVD/Blu ray format wars was way off, even with his "inside contacts".

I don't think this is as much Robert spinning info as much as his manufacturer contacts.

Ultimately, each of us has to use our own judgement and common sense in our decision making.

My crystal ball reads that Pioneer is done in the TV game. They might be done period, just not recognizing it yet.

Robert is far from just another retailer. His interest in his product lines, and meeting his customer's needs exceeds the average by a country mile.

That being said, he is not infallable. His info on the HD DVD/Blu ray format wars was way off, even with his "inside contacts".

I don't think this is as much Robert spinning info as much as his manufacturer contacts.

Ultimately, each of us has to use our own judgement and common sense in our decision making.

My crystal ball reads that Pioneer is done in the TV game. They might be done period, just not recognizing it yet.

My crystal ball is giving me some of the same readings. With these tough economic times I really question their business model. I hope they last but I give them 3 years until a sell off unless they have some magic tech that they haven't talked about.

Panny is now the reigning "king" of plasma by default - if they elect to "merge" this technology with their next panels it can only be good for consumers and force LCD to keep up.

The recent 12G Panny's and their price points make them a solid choice against LCDs. Word is getting out that PQ-wise the LCDs still can't compete with plasma unless the TV is in a "sun porch" location (and really, how much viewing is done during daylight hours now a days?).

Being a "double" Kuro owner, I can only hope that Pioneer continues as a company but obviously never again in the PDP arena. SED never showed up (although it may make an "appearance" - http://www.sed-tv-reviews.com/) and OLED has a long way to go before getting into the large screen TV market as has been earlier stated.

I will continue to recommend plasmas to my "customers" (I provide free counseling to friends and co-workers on HT equipment) and have recently helped to install 4 Panny plasmas with very happy results for the new owners.

I seem to be noticing the same, increased frequency of informed customer's, wanting to purchase Plasma over LCD. Seriously, over say the last month or two, it's been quite a surge. Also, the Sears around my area that once sold almost all LCD's now sells nearly all Plasma's, with LCD's almost exclusively offered in the sub-42" sizes. Also, this is in a market where the "high altitude" fear/rumor thing has been floating around for a long time (Flagstaff, AZ = 7100ft. elevation).

According to the Panny threads they have been "rated" for over 9200 ft the past 2-3 years so even that concern is reduced or eliminated. The myths are evaporating but show room display is still a challenge and many end up with LCD but the BBs out here in Calif have their return isles littered with returned LCDs many of which were swapped for plasmas.

Everything sells at the right price, regardless of the economy.

You may be asking a tad too much if you can't move it, or, people have heard that Pioneer is out of the biz and are concerned about what happens if the set needs service down the road.

In both cases, people outside of the high-end FP market.

Quote : "Being a "double" Kuro owner, I can only hope that Pioneer continues as a company but obviously never again in the PDP arena. "



I'm in the same situation with you Duck05, love the Kuro's, but I'm also crossing my fingers nothing EVER needs repairing. If they go Chpt. 11 ( "if" I emphasize) my EW coverage is void as well. Read their financial reports, its not looking very good. But these plasma's sure are dazzlin' !!

http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/announcement/index-e.html#corp

So, I'm new to posting here, but if Panasonic can get their black levels to the same level that the Kuro had, they may have a solid chance. The BB that I work at has a Panasonic TC-P50V10 next to a Samsung UN55B8000 and there is absolutely no way that I would buy the Samsung. The contrast is awful and the colors are very washed out.

Some might say that the Samsung has better "bright room" contrast, but that only means that in a room that is so bright that you can't pick out the colors, you can't tell the difference.