Hi all, I was just browsing through the LCD forum and was on the LNxxb750 series LCD and one poster reported a 47ms lag time with game mode turned on, and 97ms lag with game mode turned off. My question is this: Why do you need to make adjustments to play games? I just pop a game into my xbox, set my s360 5.1 and play, on a samsung plasma,no adjustments needed.

What is the average lag of a plasma with a manufacture date of say, late 08/09(taking different manufacturers into account), and does it vary from game to game?

Plasma has no issue with lag time, any more than a CRT has. This is an LCD issue only.

Plasma has no issue with lag time, any more than a CRT has. This is an LCD issue only.Actually it CAN be a issue with both Plasma and LCD. Most game lag is introduced by processing and not the panel itself.

Samsung LCD sets (some of them) seem to have more lag than most other sets.

Lag is such a loose term and should not be generalized.


Input latency can be caused by wide range of variances including the game itself. For example, incorrectly configured analogue controls can often lead to laggy response.

In the new Panasonic PDPs, input latency is not an issue. On LCDs, it varies between models.

In my general experience the worst input lag offenders are SPVA panels. I haven't seen one with less than 30ms of lag yet. That doesn't mean plasmas are immune, the 5020 at least has a good deal of lag. Panasonic in my experience excels, their plasma last year were pretty much input lag free and according to Nielo this year too.

I might be wrong but I think SPVA lag comes mostly from overdrive, when computer monitors started using overdrive input lag suddenly became an issue. You didn't hear about this on old VA/TN/IPS panels. Samsung's new LCDs are especially bad at 60ms+ input lag time.

IMHO anything under 35ms is good and playable. I play a lot of Unreal Tournament and feel that I can still stick headshots/moving shock combos easy enough with a 35ms or less display. Anything higher than that and the controls are sloppy and you miss all the time.

I've just tested a S-PVA with serious overdrive issues and it produced negligible lag.

The same applies to my 3 year old PVA, which also has certain level of overdrive.


From my understanding, it's best not to generalize the lag or confine it to a single group.

I made a thread a while back about trying a Panasonic Plasma G10, and a Samsung B650 LCD in COD4. From my experience at the store, the B650 even when not in game mode seemed pretty responsive, and controls did improve slightly with game mode on. The biggest difference between the 2 panel types was the amount of ghosting/trailing. I noticed when panning around on the LCD, there was alot of blurring on screen. The G10 blew the LCD out of the water in this regard.

So from that experience, since I am not a pro gamer (maybe intermediate-advanced), i would say that input lag from a console seemed overrated, especially with game mode on. The blurring of the lcd image was the biggest turn off.

As said before, input lag (and ghosting) will vary from lcd to lcd and plasma to plasma, but everything ive seen and read points me towards FPS on a plasma as the way to go.

That's only true for 60p FPS games

For 30p FPS games, LCD is best choice.


PS: Input lag is a major issue with the new Samsung and Sony range. Hopefully next year it'll all be solved.

interesting. I was under the impression due to pixel response time, motion handling was better on plasma period.

Why are LCD's better then plasma for 30fps games? (just curious)

PS: Input lag is a major issue with the new Samsung and Sony range. Hopefully next year it'll all be solved.

I'd like to see some hard numbers to back that up, especially with regards to Samsung's 2009 plasma line. I've been looking for weeks and haven't seen a single lag test result.

I have the number for LCDs but not PDP

Go to HDTVtest.co.uk and click on reviews

interesting. I was under the impression due to pixel response time, motion handling was better on plasma period.

Why are LCD's better then plasma for 30fps games? (just curious)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16903121&postcount=14

hmm that really sucks about the plasmas. Guess ill have to go back at try a game at 30fps.

The plasma was night and day better in COD4, but since so few games actually run at 60fps, maybe id be better off with an LCD that can handle them better. I guess ill have to see how bad it is..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16903121&postcount=14

You know, back when I was giving all those LCDs a try, I saw 30fps judder on the LCDs, the blur just hid it really well, but it was still there. The new Panasonic sets also have some type of motion processing going on, and the judder was greatly reduced because of it. (and shockingly enough, the motion processing adds no lag at all, still only 16ms) coming off of a Samsung a750 to a Panasonic G10 was a night and day difference in almost every aspect of the display, the G10 was just plain better.

You know, back when I was giving all those LCDs a try, I saw 30fps judder on the LCDs, the blur just hid it really well, but it was still there. The new Panasonic sets also have some type of motion processing going on, and the judder was greatly reduced because of it. (and shockingly enough, the motion processing adds no lag at all, still only 16ms) coming off of a Samsung a750 to a Panasonic G10 was a night and day difference in almost every aspect of the display, the G10 was just plain better.

Thats good news. Im gonna go test out a few sets for the frame doubling soon. Just curious, what game(s) were u playing where you saw the difference with 30fps? Need to figure out what to bring with me to test.

You know, back when I was giving all those LCDs a try, I saw 30fps judder on the LCDs, the blur just hid it really well, but it was still there. The new Panasonic sets also have some type of motion processing going on, and the judder was greatly reduced because of it. (and shockingly enough, the motion processing adds no lag at all, still only 16ms) coming off of a Samsung a750 to a Panasonic G10 was a night and day difference in almost every aspect of the display, the G10 was just plain better.

I think the last year's and this year's Panasonic PDPs have low-level MCFI.

I don't know how helpful they will be in games since games rarely have stable frame rate.

I think the last year's and this year's Panasonic PDPs have low-level MCFI.

I don't know how helpful they will be in games since games rarely have stable frame rate.

It really smoothed out the frame doubling that bugged me on both my 42px75 and the 5020 that I had, not as smooth as the LCDs with AMP on High, but still much smoother. Too bad the LCDs don't work like you say they do, because it would have been nice, but they still have judder if they are running below 60fps, even with AMP activated, it still doubles the frame to fit in the 60hz nature of the display. (and in the case of 120hz and 240hz sets, it multiplies them even farther, leading to even more judder.)

I think the last year's and this year's Panasonic PDPs have low-level MCFI.

I don't know how helpful they will be in games since games rarely have stable frame rate.

Is that an inherant game flaw, or is it the display that has to catch up with tech advances in the game world?

Is that an inherant game flaw, or is it the display that has to catch up with tech advances in the game world?

It is a game problem, game makers try to push the hardware harder than they should, leading to choppy frame rates. (look at Mass Effect, worst framerate I have ever seen this gen vs Call of Duty 4, one of the best frame rates I have seen this gen.)

It is a game problem, game makers try to push the hardware harder than they should, leading to choppy frame rates. (look at Mass Effect, worst framerate I have ever seen this gen vs Call of Duty 4, one of the best frame rates I have seen this gen.)

I am playing Dead Space and there is almost no lag that I can see. I am also playing Oblivion and there are some glitches(slowdowns), which I attributed to the earlier manufacture date and the sheer size of the game (software programing), as it is a much larger game compared to Dead Space, played on the same platform.

It really smoothed out the frame doubling that bugged me on both my 42px75 and the 5020 that I had, not as smooth as the LCDs with AMP on High, but still much smoother. Too bad the LCDs don't work like you say they do, because it would have been nice, but they still have judder if they are running below 60fps, even with AMP activated, it still doubles the frame to fit in the 60hz nature of the display.
I didn't say LCDs are immune to double frame (judder)

I simply said the effect of which is more tolerable and easy on the eye than PDP.

(and in the case of 120hz and 240hz sets, it multiplies them even farther, leading to even more judder.)

That's not true

30p judder will remain the same regardless of the panel clock cycle.

It is a game problem, game makers try to push the hardware harder than they should, leading to choppy frame rates. (look at Mass Effect, worst framerate I have ever seen this gen vs Call of Duty 4, one of the best frame rates I have seen this gen.)

It's not that simple

There's a fine line between frame rate and visuals and it's not always possible to maintain fixed frame rate.

I have the number for LCDs but not PDP

Go to HDTVtest.co.uk and click on reviews

HDTVtest only publishes actual numbers SOMETIMES (for whatever reason), or relative terms / a comparison to the F96, which is nonsensical and unfortunately not good enough. I would take any assessment with a large amount of salt until hard data is available.

That's only vincent. He no longer owns a CRT so he compare the test models to his F96.

My reviews are based on the Dell 2209WA via VGA, which has 16-30ms lag compared to a CRT (see attachment).


BTW, there is no set standard for measuring input lag. So we have to use clone or splitter method to ascertain the data.

I have a game mode on my plasma, but I thought it was solely for picture quality, and had nothing to do with game performance/graphics. Does it improve gameplay in game mode?

I had a Pioneer 5010, and have a Samsung A650 plasma, and I took lag measurements for both using "clone" mode on my PC. The reference monitor was a CRT.

The Pio (with or without game mode on) averages 64ms lag. The Samsung has 64 - 80ms lag. These measurements were all taken using the HDMI input of the sets at their native resolution.

Pio in top pic, Samsung in bottom.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/tqnn/1920x1080gameon2.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/tqnn/DSCN2935.jpg

I had a Pioneer 5010, and have a Samsung A650 plasma, and I took lag measurements for both using "clone" mode on my PC. The reference monitor was a CRT.

The Pio (with or without game mode on) averages 64ms lag. The Samsung has 64 - 80ms lag. These measurements were all taken using the HDMI input of the sets at their native resolution.

Pio in top pic, Samsung in bottom.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/tqnn/1920x1080gameon2.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/tqnn/DSCN2935.jpg

this is what I like to see.
good stuff.

Apparently the FP site's stopwatch isn't very accurate

So give this a try (http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/response_time.php)


PS; Try increasing the shutter speed to 1/1000


PPS: If you really want to be accurate, try the method below

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1423433

Apparently the FP site's stopwatch isn't very accurate

So give this a try (http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/response_time.php)


PS; Try increasing the shutter speed to 1/1000


PPS: If you really want to be accurate, try the method below

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1423433

That's a very interesting site. Thanks Nielo

I would just take a video at 60fps, then you can pause it and get as many "samples" as you like.

TC-P46G15(plasma)
1080P game mode
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/111lika111/1080pgame2-1.jpg
480i game mode
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/111lika111/480igame2-1.jpg

TC-32LZ800
1080P game mode
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/111lika111/1080pgame2.jpg
480i game mode
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/111lika111/480igame2.jpg

Now Plasma vs LCD
1080P
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/111lika111/G15vsLZ8002.jpg

what do the numbers mean?
64ms game lag compared to crt in real time.


input lag
(http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hdmitvmodeampongameon2rz4.flv)

more can be found on youtube.
so things to watch out for:
un-coordinated controller response
increased reaction time/disorientation
old frame targets don't register!

anything over 2 frames of lag is very significant imo.

Awesome, Mr. Deap. Thanks for those numbers!

The Panasonic plasma input lag numbers are pretty low. If I could choose my TV all over again, I'd definitely go for a Panny plasma as opposed to my Samsung A650 simply due to the input lag difference, picture quality be damned! I'm an avid gamer and input lag is the bane of gaming (for me).

Awesome, Mr. Deap. Thanks for those numbers!

The Panasonic plasma input lag numbers are pretty low. If I could choose my TV all over again, I'd definitely go for a Panny plasma as opposed to my Samsung A650 simply due to the input lag difference, picture quality be damned! I'm an avid gamer and input lag is the bane of gaming (for me).

The days of zero input lag are over... sorry, but unless you are willing to go back to a CRT (high-end CRT that is) you and everyone else are SoL... hate to break it to you.... :( :( :(

Additional Comment:
Samsung displays are notoriously for bad input lag.... However, this can be tamed by using Game Mode... or analog PC input with the appropriate input label!

The days of zero input lag are over... sorry, but unless you are willing to go back to a CRT (high-end CRT that is) you and everyone else are SoL... hate to break it to you.... :( :( :(

Additional Comment:
Samsung displays are notoriously for bad input lag.... However, this can be tamed by using Game Mode... or analog PC input with the appropriate input label!

Heh, I'm not fanatic enough about low lag to go back to CRT's.

Perhaps Samsung LCD game modes help with input lag, but on plasmas like mine, the game mode just turns the picture garishly bright and colorful but doesn't help with input lag. As for the PC input, that won't work with my PS3.

That Panasonic LCD that Mr. Deap measured has very close to CRT levels of input lag. That would be sufficient for me, and probably most others too.

Samsung A series do OK in PC or Game mode. They were measured at ~30ms and 20 ms respectively.. Hook it up via VGA and they are equal to a CRT! I know the B series was measured at 60ms+ even in game mode, I don't know if using a VGA cable or the HDMI PC mode affects the new models the same way.

I think I'll be trying a VGA cable myself for those intense Unreal games, tired of the CRT guys always getting the one up :) Unfortunately my video card doesn't have a VGA port so using a DVI/VGA adapter may make it worse than HDMI PC mode, time will tell.

I've almost been thinking about getting a CRT or TN panel just for FPS, but the WAF just isn't there

I had a Pioneer 5010, and have a Samsung A650 plasma, and I took lag measurements for both using "clone" mode on my PC. The reference monitor was a CRT.

The Pio (with or without game mode on) averages 64ms lag. The Samsung has 64 - 80ms lag. These measurements were all taken using the HDMI input of the sets at their native resolution.


Did you have the Pio in "Game mode" and also have "game control" on in the options menu?

Let get a realistic here

Input lag of ~30ms is more than enough even for the heard-core. It's not worth sacrificing image quality and motion performance just lower the input lag by a fraction.

If you're an avid gamer, try and get hold of an IPS based LCD.


PS: As I've said before, don't use FPDK's stopwatch as it's not accurate. And use shutter speed of 1/1000 if possible.

Hook it up via VGA and they are equal to a CRT!

Redo the test using the link below with the shutter speed of 1/1000 and check if it yields the same results.


http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/response_time.php

Heh, I'm not fanatic enough about low lag to go back to CRT's.

Perhaps Samsung LCD game modes help with input lag, but on plasmas like mine, the game mode just turns the picture garishly bright and colorful but doesn't help with input lag. As for the PC input, that won't work with my PS3.

That Panasonic LCD that Mr. Deap measured has very close to CRT levels of input lag. That would be sufficient for me, and probably most others too.

The panny have a native 330 lines of motion resolution. It's probably a little over 400 lines with motion focus.(Note that using motion focus do not increase the delay & it is turned on during the test)

Viewing angle+black level vs a plasma
http://i30.tinypic.com/30wqg6b.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2ue7b04.jpg

Sharpness & black level on a well light room(taken with a flash for accuracy).
http://i28.tinypic.com/2hgekyh.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/111lika111/IMG_27492.jpg

You can see that the G15 screen is grey while the LZ800 is totally black with the flash.

The LZ800 is totally full piano finish along with the screen & it look sexy even when the display is turned off.

It may not be as great for movies, but when it come for gaming & PC use, this panel rules so much.

Both panel support 1:1 pixel ratio at 0% overscan.

(picture of the PC in the back in case you want to see it (http://i32.tinypic.com/2d7itqw.jpg))

Let get a realistic here

Input lag of ~30ms is more than enough even for the heard-core. It's not worth sacrificing image quality and motion performance just lower the input lag by a fraction.

If you're an avid gamer, try and get hold of an IPS based LCD.


PS: As I've said before, don't use FPDK's stopwatch as it's not accurate. And use shutter speed of 1/1000 if possible.

The best 2009 LCD model I've seen in terms of low input lag is the Panasonic TC-L42U12:
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/VIERA-2009-HDTVs-Series/model.TC-L42U12

Looks overall better than other IPS based LCDs (i.e. Sharp ;))...

If you do want to go overboard and revert to a CRT, there's always inexpensive high end crt computer monitors going for pennies on the dollar! ;)

Redo the test using the link below with the shutter speed of 1/1000 and check if it yields the same results.


http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/response_time.php

I should have been more specific, it wasn't my testing. I don't have a CRT on hand, it was from the A750 owner's thread. I did actually try it this morning and the VGA is without a doubt faster, my friend and I played a bit this morning and noticed an immediate difference. I wouldn't be surprised if the testing was flawed, I found it hard to believe too. At least it seems more responsive than the other connections/modes.

On another note on test patterns I'm seeing less banding in gradients which is definitely a odd, I would have expected the HDMI/DVI connection to do better in this regard.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/111lika111/IMG_27492.jpg

It may not be as great for movies, but when it come for gaming & PC use, this panel rules so much.

Both panel support 1:1 pixel ratio at 0% overscan.

Interesting picture of C Viper there! ;) :D

The best 2009 LCD model I've seen in terms of low input lag is the Panasonic TC-L42U12:
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/VIERA-2009-HDTVs-Series/model.TC-L42U12
I was referring to the LCD market

Looks overall better than other IPS based LCDs (i.e. Sharp ;))...

Sharp's ASV is not IPS based. It's actually a variant of VA.

If you do want to go overboard and revert to a CRT, there's always inexpensive high end crt computer monitors going for pennies on the dollar! ;)

There's no need for CRT in today's world

I have no idea how anyone can withstand the poor ANSI and flicker.

I should have been more specific, it wasn't my testing. I don't have a CRT on hand, it was from the A750 owner's thread. I did actually try it this morning and the VGA is without a doubt faster, my friend and I played a bit this morning and noticed an immediate difference. I wouldn't be surprised if the testing was flawed, I found it hard to believe too. At least it seems more responsive than the other connections/modes.

Sorry if I sounded like an ***. I'm not exactly good with words

I'm aware of the tests you speak of. I've seen them sometime ago.

On another note on test patterns I'm seeing less banding in gradients which is definitely a odd, I would have expected the HDMI/DVI connection to do better in this regard.

It's all depends on the processing

Processing image at higher color space than the source will provide room to correct the errors.

If you process 8bit source in 8bit environment, the errors will result in banding and other image artifacts, which is why 10bit processing essential for clean image.

Let get a realistic here

Input lag of ~30ms is more than enough even for the heard-core. It's not worth sacrificing image quality and motion performance just lower the input lag by a fraction.

If you're an avid gamer, try and get hold of an IPS based LCD.


PS: As I've said before, don't use FPDK's stopwatch as it's not accurate. And use shutter speed of 1/1000 if possible.

Why it isn't accurate?

I think the reason why some not have accurate result is basically due to the web browser alone.

It is clearly stated that the lag test should not be done via internet explorer. I used safari to make sure that the browser will not skip any frame & my PC is a fillrate powerhouse(crossfire power).
http://i27.tinypic.com/2ntcrom.jpg

Well the timer may skip frame if you have multiple browsers open & if you have a weak PC the result can be wrong. Too much stress on either CPU or GPU.

Though as long as it is cloned there's shouldn't be any problem. I may redo this test with the other stop watch but we all know that it will redo the same result.

The processing power of a computer is irrelevant. It is a flash based program and we all know how accurate that is.

Anyway, it has already proven to be inaccurate.


http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034463820&postcount=18

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034463874&postcount=19

[quote=Nielo TM;16974676]I was referring to the LCD market

So was he. The Panasonic TC-L42U12 is an IPS LCD Panel.

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/VIERA-2009-HDTVs-Series/model.TC-L42U12

IPS 1080p (WSXGA)

Sorry, my bad

I keep forgetting there's a 42" Panasonic LCD

The processing power of a computer is irrelevant. It is a flash based program and we all know how accurate that is.

Anyway, it has already proven to be inaccurate.


accurate test
LCD vs CRT
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034463820&postcount=18

innacurate test
LCD vs LCD
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034463874&postcount=19

Well the timer seem alright.

Is it because of the difference that showed on the second link? The first link is made against a real CRT while the second link was against other LCDs. Obviously you will see a jump of 30ms because all LCD lag.

innacurate test
LCD vs LCD


accurate test
LCD vs CRT

How can't you get innacurate number with a single timer... O_o

You can use whatever timer as long as there's millisecond or frames.

Well the timer seem alright.

Is it because of the difference that showed on the second link? The first link is made against a real CRT while the second link was against other LCDs. Obviously you will see a jump of 30ms because all LCD lag.

innacurate test
LCD vs LCD


accurate test
LCD vs CRT

How can't you get innacurate number with a single timer... O_o

You can use whatever timer as long as there's millisecond or frames.

I had a debate with him (ToastyX) few days ago and I was proven wrong (I have no shame in admitting it ^-^)

Like most people, I also believed that all the pixels in an Active Matrix display is addressed simultaneously.

The truth is, all the pixels in a row is addressed simultaneously, which means LCDs scan the image from top to bottom per clock cycle.

So if you want to be exactly accurate, you'll have to use his methods because it shows where the scan line is (in other words, it show where the screen is updated in a given moment, which is similar to ANSI CR).

Unfortunately, you'll need a Mac for that.


That means people like you and me are left with the single stopwatch tests. Therefore, we have to carryout multiple tests to obtain the averages and we have to average those averages. Even then, we will only get an approximate value (not the exact).

During my tests, the Dell 2209WA yield 15 to 31ms lag (compared to the CRT), which is pretty low (IMO, negligible).

But tosty's test was spot on, which yield 17ms


PS: There's nothing wrong with comparing an LCD to an LCD as long you're aware of the input lag of the ... one you're comparing with (crap, I forgot the word).


PPS: Try to use shutter speed of 1/1000 if you want reduce the number of errors

you know you can download that timer instead of using it in a browser...thats how i use it and i think its accurate that way. i think a 120 shutter speed is ok for a 60hz display. with a 1/1000 shutter you'll be lucky to catch the crt beam at the right spot and end up taking many pics.

Forgot to add, out of all the timers I've tested, the embedded lagom.nl proven to be the most accurate. But you can decide that for yourself.

you know you can download that timer instead of using it in a browser...thats how i use it and i think its accurate that way. i think a 120 shutter speed is ok for a 60hz display. with a 1/1000 shutter you'll be lucky to catch the crt beam at the right spot and end up taking many pics.

It can be done. It's not impossible.


Remember,what we are looking for is input lag and not frame lag.


PS: I don't think it can be downloaded.

I was referring to the LCD market

Certainly, I was just adding that the U12 appears to be a newer model than the Z800 and appears to have minimal processing.

Sharp's ASV is not IPS based. It's actually a variant of VA.

Really, I recall reading that Sharp uses IPS panels for some or all of their LCDs... :confused: Could you provide a link or two?


There's no need for CRT in today's world

I have no idea how anyone can withstand the poor ANSI and flicker.

Well, that sounds like an opinion to me. While I'd agree for the most part (television use)... quality CRT computer monitors still provide strengths over LCDs (and plasma is N/A) - motion, high refresh rate capability, and zero input lag. You state flicker as an issue for CRTs, yet that issue was addressed many years ago... higher refresh rates! :p

Hence, I'm not planning to replace my CRT computer monitor (can refresh up to 160Hz) until a suitable flat panel becomes available. Perhaps the soon to be released XL2370 might work or a soon to be announced OLED monitor (with a sub $2K price tag ;))

Really, I recall reading that Sharp uses IPS panels for some or all of their LCDs... :confused: Could you provide a link or two?

From the limited viewing angles to good dynamic range (up to 2000:1), I can guarantee you it's not IPS based.

http://www.displayblog.com/2008/09/19/sharp-aquos-lc-65gx5-65-lcd-tv/

http://www.displayblog.com/2006/10/04/lgsharp-lcd/

Well, that sounds like an opinion to me. While I'd agree for the most part (television use)... quality CRT computer monitors still provide strengths over LCDs (and plasma is N/A) - motion, high refresh rate capability, and zero input lag. You state flicker as an issue for CRTs, yet that issue was addressed many years ago... higher refresh rates! :p


Not when you connect it to consoles

BTW, the poor ANSI is actually a fact but I do prefer LCD/PDP over CRTs.


PS: CRTs have their own problems which surpasses LCD and PDP

you can download the fp stopwatch here (http://tft.vanity.dk/)

Did you have the Pio in "Game mode" and also have "game control" on in the options menu?

I had both "game mode" on and "game control" on. I don't have this display anymore, so I can't do any further testing. In fact, I don't have my CRT anymore so I can't do any testing of any display until I can find a reference monitor.

BTW, I used the downloaded fp stopwatch that borf linked to for all my testing.

you can download the fp stopwatch here (http://tft.vanity.dk/)

It's also inaccurate as it's flash based

hmm your right if thats true. you can check your fps in flash here (http://www.tekool.net/blog/2008/05/27/overriding-flash-player-60fps-limit-in-firefox-up-to-950fps-as-silverlight-2-in-bubblemark/) (shown in top left corner)
i get 700-900 fps, so for simple animations like a stopwatch i'm guessing it'll do even if it is flash.

I was referring to the actual update speed. the question is, will it update every 16.7ms? And the answer is no according to few members over at [H] Forums.

The best option is to try the one I linked or get a Mac if you really want to be spot on

im all for accuracy though don't know what "update"means (screen refresh?)

All display devices are based on refresh cycle. It defines the number of times the screen is updated every second.

At 60Hz, LCD and CRT update/scan the screen every 16.7ms. CRT draw the lines using a highly focused electron beam from left to right (top to bottom).

The same method applies to AM-LCDs, but it's different. In AM-LCD, the pixels are mapped as rows and columns. During each update cycle, a row is activated (grounded) and the corresponding pixel is lit via the column driver which supplies the power. The process is also done from top to bottom.

When you drag a window from left and right, you'll notice that the lower sections of the two vertical edges are lagging behind. It's the result or poor uniformity. In other words, it's taking too long to switch from one row to another.


When comparing input lag, it's best to know which part of the screen is being updated. So we can be 100% of the input lag.

For more info, checkout Tosty's posts in [H] Forums

Maybe this should help a bit

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/lcd4.htm

When I watch TV I usually don't look in the corner.

im sure the test at hardforum is accurate and great some one did it. come to think of it, the fp stopwatch tends to land on specific increments.

I realized that it would be easy to make my own timer for measuring input lag using the XNA framework (Windows and Xbox 360). In 5 minutes I had my own little creation. The framework takes care of keeping track of time down to the millisecond:

output = gameTime.TotalGameTime.Minutes.ToString("D3") + ":" +
gameTime.TotalGameTime.Seconds.ToString("D3") + ":" +
gameTime.TotalGameTime.Milliseconds.ToString("D3");

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4333/simpletimer.jpg

I'm thinking that it would be a useful feature to cycle the color of the milliseconds portion each time a new frame is drawn.... too easy! ;)

Is it possible for you create a three septate timers (top, middle and bottom)

Is it possible for you create a three septate timers (top, middle and bottom)

You mean draw the same string at the top, middle, and bottom of the screen? I have the application set to fixed time step with vertical sync enabled...

But sure, I can do whatever... :confused:

test that puppy. im thinking with v-sync enabled you're accurate to within 1 frame (16ms). FPstopwatch often shows ~ 16ms differences so maybe it too uses a kind of v-sync.

test that puppy. im thinking with v-sync enabled you're accurate to within 1 frame (16ms). FPstopwatch often shows ~ 16ms differences so maybe it too uses a kind of v-sync.

I belive this method is accurate to the frame itself... not within 1 frame or greater.... you state "uses some kind of v-sync".... oh boy... :S

Yeah... I need to grab a digital camera and test out. I also made the program alternate the text color between FFFF00 and 0000FF (yellow and blue). That way if two images are 1 or more (odd multiple), the timer color will be different, even multiple or the same frame if the same. Running the app on my 360 gives the plasma phosphor lag effect on my LCD! LOL! Though my CRT holds true.... ;)

Anyways... my 19" Mitsubishi CRT will display 1920x1080, so I have a absolute reference for determining input lag on my.... hold your breath... XBR8 (supposedly one of the worst, but I use game mode). So, using my computer, I will test input lag with various screen resolutions and settings. One head on the video card will be connected to the DP900u (CRT) and try both sets of tests with an analog connection (PC input on TV) and a digital connection (HDMI input on TV). Stay tuned!

1080x1920 is a lot of pixels to push around.
this guy made an fps counter to verify his fps.
XNA framework fps counter code (http://blogs.msdn.com/shawnhar/archive/2007/06/08/displaying-the-framerate.aspx)

Hmm I ran the website based test for input lag and my 46S1 was reading about 30 ms faster than my 24" iMac on all picture settings (including game mode). Does this make sense?

http://i28.tinypic.com/2bthf5.png

I think the LCD and Plasma are pretty comparable nowadays right?

Hmm I ran the website based test for input lag and my 46S1 was reading about 30 ms faster than my 24" iMac on all picture settings (including game mode). Does this make sense?


I'm not familiar with either the 46S1 or the iMac display, but why are you surprised with the result? Different displays have different input lags...some plasmas are slow, some fast; some LCDs are slow, some fast.

Hmm I ran the website based test for input lag and my 46S1 was reading about 30 ms faster than my 24" iMac on all picture settings (including game mode). Does this make sense?

http://i28.tinypic.com/2bthf5.png

Yes.

The Panny plasma lag of exaclty 2 frames.

to me looks like the Imac is ahead unless that clock runs backwards.

Yes.

The Panny plasma lag of exaclty 2 frames.

That's 2 frames behind the iMac display. Do we know what the lag of the iMac is?

Wow I am special. My excuse is that it was late (for me) last night. I have no idea what the iMac's lag is, but is two frames good, bad, or average? I realize it's two frames behind the iMac and could be more overall...

thats ok, i saw one person stop the clocks before taking the picture... and then wonder why the numbers were the same. you can't do it like that.

as said before i've yet to see a tv set beat ~ two frame average. not bad but not great either. don't know if it will ever happen.

Interesting info in this thread. Good read so far.

The best 2009 LCD model I've seen in terms of low input lag is the Panasonic TC-L42U12:
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/VIERA-2009-HDTVs-Series/model.TC-L42U12

Looks overall better than other IPS based LCDs (i.e. Sharp ;))...

It that surprising given that it only has a 8 ms Response Time?

(or am I an HDTV noob getting my terms confused...)

What I like about the Panny LCD is indeed the IPS alpha. Even if the panel have high contrast ratio, the wide viewing agle make the whole difference.

Unlike the plasma they are dithering free & the black level is very decent & kick every brand starting at 15 degree.

kXIxz-R1HHk

Here the link for the test
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php

It that surprising given that it only has a 8 ms Response Time?

(or am I an HDTV noob getting my terms confused...)

Yes, you're a noob getting your terms confused ;)

The 8ms response time is the pixel response time, generally the time it takes for a pixel to change from black to white, or gray to gray.

Guys guys....
How many times do you need to read the reviews, and see them for yourself at the stores?
Do you know any LCD or LED in the world that can beat a Pioneer Plasma (specially from 8th and 9th generation)?
I don't think so...

What I like about the Panny LCD is indeed the IPS alpha. Even if the panel have high contrast ratio, the wide viewing agle make the whole difference.

Unlike the plasma they are dithering free & the black level is very decent & kick every brand starting at 15 degree.

kXIxz-R1HHk

Here the link for the test
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php

Yeah those are nice but they aren't exactly black level monsters. IPS tech is nice and all but with 800:1 contrast ratios I'll stick with a PVA display. 3000:1+ contrast on those. Once they come out with an LCD panel with the viewing angles of IPS and the black levels of PVA they'll have a winner.. and LED local dimming and you could have something very special.. maybe one day ;)