Just got off the phone with Theta and discovered they have a Blu-Ray player almost ready. I believe the name is CompliBlu if I heard right. Seems it will be a universal player with SACD and offers bitstreaming. How did this get past the Theta AVSers?

Its the almost issue. At least no one says it will be ready in 2 more weeks. RIP Dwin.

Which OEM player (if any) do y'all think it might be based on? An Oppo?

It is my understanding it is built from the Compli. Was that player based on a redesigned DVD player?

It is my understanding it is built from the Compli. Possibly but it seems unlikely as both new drive mechanism as well as new electronics/processing are required. Mebbe they kept the case. :)

Could be an Oppo - Lexicon has OEM'd them... I would think for a small company like Theta it would be impossible to build a player from the ground up... BUt lets see the pre/pro first. I'm sure the player will arrive in '12.

Just got off the phone with Theta and discovered they have a Blu-Ray player almost ready. I believe the name is CompliBlu if I heard right. Seems it will be a universal player with SACD and offers bitstreaming. How did this get past the Theta AVSers?

Have they mentioned when the Beta testing will be complited on the CBIII-HDMI upgrade?

The compli was based on a pioneer. Same remote also.

The internal parts were probably modified but if i remember well, the transport mechanism is the same.

Have they mentioned when the Beta testing will be complited on the CBIII-HDMI upgrade?

Working Demo at Cedia. Selling shortly after is what I was told today. I'll be swinging by to check it out.

The compli was based on a pioneer. Same remote also.

The internal parts were probably modified but if i remember well, the transport mechanism is the same.

IT would be interesting to know if THeta fixed the 3 sec layer change inherent in the $2K 09 and $500 05 players.

The $2K 09 had a 1.1 sec layer change as tested by Secrets so I'm not sure where you are getting the 3 sec layer change from.

"The only area the BDP-09FD didn't shine was in the usability section of our benchmark. The player only had average performance when it comes to response, and clocked in at a good but not great 1.1 seconds for layer changes."

This is the perfect thread for you! You get to bash Theta and Pioneer in the same thread! Have fun..............:D

Any lag for layer changes on DVD in this day and age is unacceptable. Especially a $2K player. To me equipment is guilty until proven innocent. It's stuff someone's trying to sell. I have never had an emotional love affair over equipment. Who cares about it? If it's not right bitch. Someone at the co. will hear it

When Theta releases a working HDMI SSP, my complaint is over. After 5 years, I'm ready to move on. ;)

I agree but there's HUGE difference between the 3 second layer change you stated and the factual 1.1 second layer change. The OPPO 83 had a 1 sec layer change. Is a tenth of a second that big of a deal to knock the Pioneer?

I disagree. A 0.5 sec lag is huge. It may be a good BD player, but useless for DVD. Certainly for those who care about movie watching, it's a huge minus. May as well incorporate an intermission.

The Pioneer 09 does not do SACD so it will be either from Oppo, Denon, or Marantz.

I pick the new Marantz.

It would be fun to think that Theta would apply their skill and handling of a totally Theta mutichannel analog audio section with Theta DACs and Theta fully balanced 7.1 channel analog outs paired with the Denon video section. Just put it all in a taller, very shiny, metal case and Bob's yer uncle.

Then, make a stand alone, fully balanced, Theta 8 shooter pure analog multichannel preamp to attach to.

How hard could that be and how long would that take? Bet it would sound killer.

I disagree. A 0.5 sec lag is huge. It may be a good BD player, but useless for DVD. Certainly for those who care about movie watching, it's a huge minus. May as well incorporate an intermission.What a great idea for an option selection on the player!
1- Change layer directly.
2- At layer change, insert pause while screen displays "Refreshments are available in the lobby."

"We have a blu ray player" meaning Theta has bought a blu ray player they are testing on the HDM 1.3 Casablanca 3.

Interpreted as "we have a Theta blu ray player available for sale soon".

HA!

Theta's blu ray player will be either the Pioneer o5 or Oppo modded, likely the Oppo.
The player has to be a "reasonable" price to acquire before the mods and Theta's pricing. Too expensive an initial player means too expensive a Theta player and few sales.

What a great idea for an option selection on the player!
1- Change layer directly.
2- At layer change, insert pause while screen displays "Refreshments are available in the lobby."

:D. Good one!
I'll remember that next time I watch 'Barry Lyndon'.

It would be fun to think that Theta would apply their skill and handling of a totally Theta mutichannel analog audio section with Theta DACs and Theta fully balanced 7.1 channel analog outs paired with the Denon video section. Just put it all in a taller, very shiny, metal case and Bob's yer uncle.

Then, make a stand alone, fully balanced, Theta 8 shooter pure analog multichannel preamp to attach to.

How hard could that be and how long would that take? Bet it would sound killer.

I do not know of any 7.1 players or even 5.1 players with "fully" balanced outs for the surround channels.They are too expensive to make and thus sale. Only thing I could think of would be the EMM labs 6 channel dac with a separate transport but currently nothing does blu-ray they make. Speaking of EMM labs,they were one of the first to sell a really high quality six channel pre-amp. It's the worst selling product they sell, I am told. When the HDMI upgrade happens, I suspect, sells of even the Six Shooter will fall and give Theta very little incentive to offer a newer model. It's just the market. Most home theaters are still 5.1 and a very few people want multi-channel analog pre-amps. Most want an all in-one box even if the sound quality in inferior. It's unlikely you would ever see a player with fully balanced outs for the surround from Theta.

Theta's blu ray player will be either the Pioneer o5 or Oppo modded, likely the Oppo.
The player has to be a "reasonable" price to acquire before the mods and Theta's pricing. Too expensive an initial player means too expensive a Theta player and few sales.

Evelyn Sinclair told me that Theta had some sort of arrangement with Pioneer but that was the old Theta. I knew that the blu-ray player was being developed. When I first heard, it was nearly two years ago, so I should not be surprised that one is nearing completion. I guess we will see the a full scale launch of the new Theta with the Dreadnaught III, CBIII HDMI and Blu-ray player.

I luv Theta - but with the technology leaps in the generation models of blu ray players, if Theta was working with a two year old platform to make a blu ray player, that just don't cut the cake, and I don't believe that's the case at all.

Remember that ATI manufactures AV components for many companies and ATI owns Theta. This gives possibilities that perhaps didn't exist for the old Theta.

I luv Theta - but with the technology leaps in the generation models of blu ray players, if Theta was working with a two year old platform to make a blu ray player, that just don't cut the cake, and I don't believe that's the case at all.
.

I did not say that is was a two year old platform . I have no idea. This is the new Theta and ATI may have agreements with other companies that Theta did not. Again, no idea.

The compli was based on a pioneer. Same remote also.

The internal parts were probably modified but if i remember well, the transport mechanism is the same.

I wouldn't go just on the remote. The CB3 has a pioneer remote too.

I wouldn't go just on the remote. The CB3 has a pioneer remote too.

Not sure but I know a lot of universals were based upon Pioneer transports. The Bel Canto Player 1, Sim Moon Orbiter, and McCormack UDP-1 were as well according to an article Kal wrote in Stereophile. This kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who says that a Range Rover V8 is nothing but a Buick because the engine was originally a Buick 215. I disagree in both instances.

To repeat, Pioneer does not make an SACD capable Bluray player, so I doubt the OEM use by Theta.

Frankly, I'm not sure why SACD is even going to be included in this player. Purchasers are going to be high end audiophiles who, if they already own SACD's, will already own a high end SACD player. No need for the redundancy. If they do not already own SACD's, they will far more likely purchase Bluray discs instead.

Theta has always been an audiophile company. Leave the complicated bluray video to -Denon, Marantz,or Oppo- and take the analog mutichannel audio to the next level.

Maybe they'll include something like the Sony HATS or Pioneer PQLS system in the transport to couple w/the CBIII and eliminate jitter. Would be a way to add value for Theta users and make distinctive. Don't know if and how the 'jitter jail' buffering will handle HDMI.

SACD and DVD-A will be included digitally over HDMI for any high end audio company that uses the Oppo BDP-83 Blu Ray player as its starting point. Get it???!!!@@@
My bet all along is Theta will use the Oppo player for its platform.

Theta has always been an audiophile company. Leave the complicated bluray video to -Denon, Marantz,or Oppo- and take the analog mutichannel audio to the next level.

Hmmm, Theta been doing video for awhile. David,Voyager,Carmen, David II, Carmen II, and Compli with some having SDI outs. I know that Theta does dacs but when I think of the company now, I think mostly of home theater, multi-channel amps, surround processors, and yes video players.

SACD and DVD-A will be included digitally over HDMI for any high end audio company that uses the Oppo BDP-83 Blu Ray player as its starting point. Get it???!!!@@@
My bet all along is Theta will use the Oppo player for its platform.

Right, like you I think, I've used an Oppo into an Onkyo 9.8 for multichannel hi rez formats. But there are maybe better ways to do it, that's what the Pioneer and Sony systems attempt. The processor and player work together in a clocking scheme that is an optional part of the HDMI spec. For example:

As HDMI® has become the new high-definition cable connection of choice, HDMI is susceptible to digital transmission errors known as “jitter.” Jitter is caused by timing errors in the digital bit-stream between two connected components and can cause audibly noticeable problems sonically expressed by a lack of detail, depth, imaging, and ultimately a natural sound-fieldThe VSX-23TXH is the entry point for Pioneer’s exclusive PQLS-Multi technology that can solve these problems when coupled with a PQLS-Multi equipped Pioneer Blu-Ray Disc® player (BDP-23FD). By using the 2-way HDMI CEC communication capabilities of the HDMI spec, Pioneer Elite PQLS components “talk to each other” and “speed synchronize” the digital clocks between them using the receiver’s Precision Quartz Lock System (PQLS) to buffer and synchronize the digital audio signals, effectively removing the effects of jitter for a clear, pristine, natural sounding digital transfer. PQLS-Multi removes the effects of jitter with 2-channel CD playback and now from multi-channel DVD and Blu-Ray Disc soundtracks.

Is better to by sources from the "Real Makers" ,not re-badged brands.
Ok, Theta is fantastic in sound, period.
Same like Mcintosh... Buying DVD Player, that are Denon's $500 USD Re-Badged...LOOOOL
There is no Blu Ray Player such as Pioneer BDP-LX91.
This is the "KING".

Any word if Theta plans on including DSD decoding in the CB HDMI upgrade? If not having a player that outputs it natively, Oppo based or otherwise, would be sort of pointless.

Any word if Theta plans on including DSD decoding in the CB HDMI upgrade? If not having a player that outputs it natively, Oppo based or otherwise, would be sort of pointless.

Theta has made it clear the HDMI 1.3 CB3 will not do DSD decoding.
But with the Oppo you can convert to PCM and send via HDMI to the new CB3 HDMI 1.3.

Any word if Theta plans on including DSD decoding in the CB HDMI upgrade? If not having a player that outputs it natively, Oppo based or otherwise, would be sort of pointless.

It could not be done with the current dac cards. It would require new ones. There may be new ones at some future point but who knows? I think Theta wisely decided it was not worth it at this point to spend money engineering a solution for format that even Sony has abandoned. I have used my Six Shooters with various SACD players. Imagine SACD converted to PCM by something like the Oppo and sent to the CBIII HDMI would sound good.

?????????????????????

Just got off the phone with Theta and discovered they have a Blu-Ray player almost ready. I believe the name is CompliBlu if I heard right. Seems it will be a universal player with SACD and offers bitstreaming. How did this get past the Theta AVSers?

Now as of CEDIA 2009 this is old news!

No working Theta CB3 HDMI yet but an about to be released Blu Ray player. My bet is based off the Oppo. I e-mailed Theta months ago to immediately buy up some Oppos and use them for their Blu Ray platform. At least someone listens to me.

Theta's supposed to be shipping the Compli-blu in 30 to 45 days. What is the price of the damn thing?

Theta's supposed to be shipping the Compli-blu in 30 to 45 days. What is the price of the damn thing?

It's a secret! :rolleyes:

Who would buy any Theta product at this point in time? They are supposed to release a bluray player when they have spent over two years on a non working HDMI solution. Perhaps they should use some of the resources they are using on the blu ray and transfer them to the HDMI project--much better public relations which is what sells product, besides HAVING a product. A couple of years ago I switched to Theta from Classe, although I had Theta before that. Looks like I made a bad move, but I hate to take a bath on the CB III, Gen 8, etc.. All we hear are extended deadlines for beta testing, production, and so on, but nothing comes of it. All levels of trust are gone and the only question is when is enough, enough.

At this point, until and unless Theta comes through with the promised HDMI upgrade, anyone reading this forum who buys a Theta Blu Ray player would have to be - NUTS!

Well, they will maybe announce it, and then it will be available in two or three years from now...

Well, they will maybe announce it, and then it will be available in two or three years from now...

Or not !!

Ok so here is the official news.. The Compli Blue is just about ready to ship.. Its expected to ship in the next 3-4 weeks and its awesome..

Its got Theta's Power supplies and chassis and lots of things that make it look better and sound better than any one else's Blue Ray player on the market today.. Well at least that what I think..

As most of you remember the Compli was awesome and we always thought it was the best DVD player on the market and I think the Compli Blue will do the same for Blue Ray..

It uses the Oppo transport and everything else is Thetas and its going to be sweet...

Pricing i can tell you will be 3-4K list and we should have final pricing in the next few days..

Theta's HDMI solution for the Casablanca III is coming along great as well. It was shown working at Cedia and we expect to start CBIII upgrades by years end.. The HDMI solution for the Casablanca III is going to be awesome.. It will be the only US made HDMI solution that i know of..

Theta will have the most amazing Audio Video solutions that are made right here in Southern California and you can bet they will look and sound like Theta has always has delivered !!!

Thanks
CRaig

3-4K??? If I am bit streaming sound to let say my one day to be upgraded CBIII, Why would I need a 3-4K Bluray player? If Theta is using the OPPO Architecture (I am assuming the video component will be the same as the oppo) Why wouldn't I just buy the oppo?

Am I missing something here? The oppo Satisfies all of today needs, what advantage does the compli Blu bring? 2.5K+ upcharge for a power supply and chasis is ridiculous. There has to be more to it.

3-4K??? If I am bit streaming sound to let say my one day to be upgraded CBIII, Why would I need a 3-4K Bluray player? If Theta is using the OPPO Architecture (I am assuming the video component will be the same as the oppo) Why wouldn't I just buy the oppo?

Am I missing something here? The oppo Satisfies all of today needs, what advantage does the compli Blu bring? 2.5K+ upcharge for a power supply and chasis is ridiculous. There has to be more to it.

Why does there have to be more to it? Really has nothing to do with whether the compli blu offers any additional value, just whether current Theta owners perceive it as offering additional value.

I'm with you, though, as I do not understand the fixation with better analog audio performance. Surely any hi-end music/home theater system will want the spinner as a digital transport - both video and audio. I know I do! I use a Lumagen Radiance XE scaler, so I just want source direct out of the player (Oppo - check!). I use a Meridian 861/621 surround sound processer, so I just want bluray and SACD audio available as PCM (Oppo - check!). OK, I can't bitstream audio, but having the Oppo do the unzipping is inaudible and doesn't use the analog stage.

Certainly, there is some value to a better clock, upgraded power supply, nicer case and faceplate, but are these things likely to make much of a difference to the player as a digital transport. I doubt it!

I suppose if Meridian were to rebadge the Oppo into a G-series case with attendent comms, and price it reasonably (something of an oxymoron with Meridian) I might bite.

I have the same concerns about Theta's Blu Ray player. I use my Oppo Blu Ray player solely as a HDMI audio and video transport. Sim2 C3X 1080 projector. Theta CB3 with Extreme DACs and Six Shooter (from Craig).
Interim HDMI 1.3 thanks to Integra 9.8 while I await Theta's HDMI 1.3 solution to the CB3. And a Theta Compli, but I only currently use it for multi-channel hi rez SACD and DVD-A. I use the Oppo for DVD. I now use a PS Audio PerfectWave Transport (and just got their DAC two days ago)
for redbook - redbook using the PWT even with the CB3's Extreme DACs sounds better than using the Compli in SACD mode via analog out to Six Shooter.

I do not use the Oppo for SACD or DVD-A because the Compli sounds better for that.

Mebbe when the CB3 HDMI 1.3 solution comes my way then the Oppo will sound better than my current Compli for multi-channel SACD and DVD-A. We will see (hear).

But mebbe the new Compli Blu Ray will sound better, thanks to upgraded power supply, as a HDMI transport for SACD and DVD-A (as it converts digitarlly SACD to PCM to work with the CB3's DACs). I don't know.

I'd like a Compli Blu HDMI Transport - leave the Oppo DACs alone and just improve its HDMI performance, for less money, then I may be interested.

If the CBIII HDMI upgrade is going to be available "by years end", then the Compli blu has little value to me personally. The extra expense over a normal Oppo, or even the Pioneer reference player is tough to justify, especially since the analog stage would be moot with an HDMI equipped CBIII.

ASI TEK has a mod for the new Oppo which only addresses its HDMI performance. Does anyone have any experience on ASI TEK's reliability? If and when my Casablanca has an HDMI input, I won't care about the analog or da sections of a blu-ray player. I can't see the point of this Theta product except perhaps as a SACD player. I haven't gotten into SACD and it seems to be dying out anyway.

I'd like a Compli Blu HDMI Transport - leave the Oppo DACs alone and just improve its HDMI performance, for less money, then I may be interested.

I am guessing that it is easier just to leave the Oppo Dacs in place and cheaper. Could be more costly if you have to take the time to remove them?

I am sure some of you read the Theta Post about the new Product but I just wanted to make sure..

The Theta Compli Blue Ray Player set for release in the next few weeks has a suggested retail price of 2995..

I consider that price quite nice considering the Lexicon is more and I am sure will not look or sound as good as the Theta piece.

Craig

I am guessing that it is easier just to leave the Oppo Dacs in place and cheaper. Could be more costly if you have to take the time to remove them?

My research indicates that none of the Oppo modders say anything about changing the DACs. And that Oppo is not giving out proprietary info, either. So whether Theta, Lexicon, or a half dozen modding companies out there, were are talking mods being power supply, clock, faceplate, caps, resistors, etc.

According to the Lexicon product manager, their changes to the Oppo are a bit more extensive. It sounds closer to what Meridian does with their players in that they take some OE subsystems, and build the player up from the ground as opposed to modding an existing complete player. Scroll down to Todd Packer's post in this link:

http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=323

I guess we'll see when people get theirs and start taking them apart.

--Andre

According to the Lexicon product manager, their changes to the Oppo are a bit more extensive. It sounds closer to what Meridian does with their players in that they take some OE subsystems, and build the player up from the ground as opposed to modding an existing complete player. Scroll down to Todd Packer's post in this link:

http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=323

I guess we'll see when people get theirs and start taking them apart.

--Andre

Yea, I am skeptical that anyone is really OEMing a new player with new firmware out of the Oppo. You are right. Once folks like you get the Lexicon player and look inside and at its menu, you will tell. My bet is that
the post you cite is gobblygook common in the industry and simply hides the fact that the player is the same, modded power supply and clock perhaps and new faceplate, maybe a few other mods in resistors, caps, etc but that is it. Same Oppo firmware. Same Oppo speed. Same Oppo which can bitstream the new formats or convert them to PCM over HDMI to the Lex surround processor (or other surround processors so capable as well).

Knowing you, Andre, you will figure this out and let us know. Thanks.

My research indicates that none of the Oppo modders say anything about changing the DACs. And that Oppo is not giving out proprietary info, either. So whether Theta, Lexicon, or a half dozen modding companies out there, were are talking mods being power supply, clock, faceplate, caps, resistors, etc.

At this point I would consider Lexicon and Theta as modders as well as the aftermarket companies like Modwright, AsiTek and EVS. The distinction between the manfacturers is aftermarket modders atleast are giving you an idea what they are replacing from the oem Oppo parts.

I like Theta products very much, but again from the looks of some of the internals shots as well as the soundstage article, the power-supply seems to be the only thing that has been changed, atleast Theta gives us that, (On a side note I am kind of suprised Theta didn't come out with with a Bluray player based on a Pioneer platform, considering their long time use of their pioneer based players and transports) whereas Lexicon seems to make more ambigous claims of all the re-engineering that their team has done.

This is what Lexicon claims they have done to re-engineer the OPPO:

“What are the differences to the OPPO?”

When we specified the BD-30 we focused on premium video & audio performance, fast response times (*1) , and a mechanical construction that upholds the lexicon tradition of excellence (*2) – Some parts are similar to the OPPO due to the fact we purchase subassemblies from the same contract manufacturer. We then ship this subassembly to Indiana and complete the manufacturing in the States. We load in application specific firmware

“why does the Lexicon cost more?”

The BD-30 is the highest performance blu-ray player available today and when you see the unit, you’ll realize that the product not only is the highest performance player, but is build to the highest standards in the USA. It is then shipped with Joe Kane’s setup disc (*3) and supported with world class customer support (*4) "

(*1) Faster load times that the stock Oppo...Ok, that will be interesting to see, Surely not worth the +$3000 price hike
(*2) Hmm, Ok a thicker aluminum faceplate, still looks to be a steel chasis and same the Oppo feet.... maybe less resonance in the chasis with the use of the aluminum and a stonger chasis and probably tipping the scale at +30lbs
(*3) Oppo ships the S&M and AIX calibration Disc, what is Lexicon's point other than marketing and name dropping of a respected individual in the A/V community?
(*4) No way, Lexicon can even come close to Oppo's level of Customer Service

I think the only weak link for people that are craving a little more performance out the stock Oppo- is within the OPPO analog IC. These manfactuers don't need to necessarily swap out the DACS (they are quality DACS), but the analog circuit needs some reworking as well as the removal of some parts (i.e. opamps)

Yesterday I ordered a black Theta Compli Blu. I also have the original Compli with SDI so I will compare the DVD performance between the two, and also SACD playback performance.

I believe more are interested in an Oppo vs Complu Blu comparison. Is it worth the extra $$$.

So the Theta will not offer higher end DACs and processing then the Oppo?

It should perform as well on its own as if it was connected via HDMI to a Theta processor. The 3K shoudl represent 1 source player worth of quality consistent with their brand.

If its just a transport priced at 3k i would be a very unhappy Theta supporter and my loyalty would drop like a lead balloon.

I believe more are interested in an Oppo vs Complu Blu comparison. Is it worth the extra $$$.
I think the shootout would include these players (also posted in BDP-83SE thread):

Oppo BDP-83 (http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/) - $499
BDP-83SE - $895
BDP-83SE NuForce Edition (http://www.nuforce.com/hi/products/oppo_bdp83se/index.php) - $1295
BDP-83 Modwright modification (http://www.modwright.com/modifications/14) - $950-$1495
...
Theta Compli Blu - $2995 (orig: $4995) - (Theta Digital link (http://www.thetadigital.com/index.shtml)), AVS threads: link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1168890) & link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1179260)
...
Lexicon BD-30 (http://www.lexicon.com/products/overview.asp?ID=27) - $3499
...
...
Ayre DX-5 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1181755) - ~$10,000


Mike

So the top of the line ModWright + Oppo = $2K

I wonder how this differs from the Ayre DX5. Some notes from the Ayre DX5 thread under the BLURAY PLAYERS forum...

- all power supplies are REPLACED with pure linear supplies with analog regulators.

- USB power switches replaced with devices without charge pumps [???]

- REPLACE master clock with a VCXO

- ADD AyreLink Communications and custom FPGA on the front panel PCB [I guess this serves as a translator of sorts from OPPO speak to AyreLink speak, dunno ???]

- Audio "side" of board has separate power transformer and its own set of opto isolators to separate it from the video side

- OPPO's 10 channel board was REPLACED with a 2 channel board with discrete, fully balanced, zero feedback audio circuit and discrete, zero feedback power supply regulators with improved parts quality and circuit design. "the performance exceeds our $6000 audio only disk player" [parts list not disclosed based on what I read]

- ADD USB audio with its own bank of opto isolators to form a "third" side of the system [interesting what the browsing menu would like when search files on a USB device]

- ADD audio only HDMI capable of "ARC" audio rate control [but Ayre does not know a surround processor that employes ARC or that is what I interpreted]

- then finally its all stuffed in that handsome anodized aluminum and stainless steal cabinet [ I bet that is $300-$400 in itself if not more].

Any comments on the Ayre DX-5, Lexicon, Theta Compl Blu and ModWright OPPO enhancments?

I'd be interested in what others have to say. It appears Lexicon and ModWright enhanced or did board level "upgrades" wereas Ayre in many regards just gutted the unit.

What beats me is why nobody is offering a "silver chassis mod" to the Oppo?! A mod that replaces the black chassis parts with silver / natural brushed aluminum parts.

A DIY panel kit would work out great and I would gladly pay $500 for it if the parts are in silver with the same finish as the black oppo parts.

I don't think I'm alone when I say I would gladly pay more to get the Oppo in silver, but $3500 for the Lexicon is just too much to pay for a silver chassis on a device that probably will be outdated in ~3 years... :cool:

...It appears Lexicon and ModWright enhanced or did board level "upgrades" wereas Ayre in many regards just gutted the unit.
Dan Wright:
...complete re-engineering and replacement of the analog stage that we provide with our OWN analog power supply, as well as clock upgrade and stock PS improvements.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=post;quote=692409;topic=68675.100;num_repli es=109;b39c8d5a=2ade9f07dcb8ef0e78deb397bf75ba7f

Yep, been emailing Dan today.

Ok so here is the official news.. The Compli Blue is just about ready to ship.. Its expected to ship in the next 3-4 weeks and its awesome..


Pricing i can tell you will be 3-4K list and we should have final pricing in the next few days..



Has it started shipping?

Whats with the $3K - $4K list? Theta originally announced $2995. Mike Pontelle of ATI confirmed this to me shortly after CEDIA. Has Theta decided to do a bit more upgrading than just the power supply? Maybe they are now modding the SA edition from Oppo with better DACs?

whats with the $3k - $4k list? Theta originally announced $2995. Mike pontelle of ati confirmed this to me shortly after cedia. Has theta decided to do a bit more upgrading than just the power supply? Maybe they are now modding the sa edition from oppo with better dacs?

hd-sdi?

I don´t think you will see HD SDI, but from what I have heard the Compli Blu will have several other advantages over the Oppo, improved analog output to mention one, not power supply only.

I just stubled on the Theta Compli Blu manual. It contains pictures of the OPPO with the label "Oppo" in the pictures:

http://www.thetadigital.com/downloads/Theta%20Digital%20Compli%20Blu%20owner's%20manual.pdf

They're not even trying to hide that there's an Oppo inside! :)

From the manual:

"The Compli Blu, like all the other transports before it, is based on a manufacturing kit
obtained from a third party, then optimized by Theta Digital's experts to bring it up to our
high standards. In the past, we've partnered with Sony, Phillips and Pioneer. This time,
we're pleased to partner with Oppo, whose recent transports have garnered quite a
following. Both Oppo and Theta Digital are delighted to bring this top performing product to
you, and to build upon the already desirable performance of the BPD-83 and establish yet
another benchmark of performance in the transport product category.
In this manual, you'll see a couple diagrams showing the original BDP-83 faceplate and
remote control. Where appropriate, we've edited the content, but since the graphical user
interface remains largely the same, as well as the features set, it was deemed sufficient to
include those original diagrams."

I don´t think you will see HD SDI, but from what I have heard the Compli Blu will have several other advantages over the Oppo, improved analog output to mention one, not power supply only.

It sounds like it's a rebadged Oppo BD-83 SPECIAL EDITION. (Check out http://www.oppodigital.com/ - they recently introduced this model with improved Audio; new DACs etc.).

It sounds like it's a rebadged Oppo BD-83 SPECIAL EDITION. (Check out http://www.oppodigital.com/ - they recently introduced this model with improved Audio; new DACs etc.).
Expensive badge.:rolleyes:

Mike

It sounds like it's a rebadged Oppo BD-83 SPECIAL EDITION. (Check out http://www.oppodigital.com/ - they recently introduced this model with improved Audio; new DACs etc.).
Why do you say a rebadged 83SE and not a rebadged 83? Is there something in the manual that is a clue?

Expensive badge.:rolleyes:

Mike

Particularly since the Oppo SE is about $800.

Will wonders never cease? --- the wonder being that Theta will probably sell scads of these guys to the clueless.

I'd be pretty surprised if the Bluray picture were any better and surprised if the HDMI out were any better and pretty surprised if the upconverted standard DVD's were any better. That leaves the analog out portion. So could I go buy the $800 Oppo, a digital cable and any number of great external DACS and still be ahead?

Why do you say a rebadged 83SE and not a rebadged 83? Is there something in the manual that is a clue?

Theta's claim that it has improved audio circuits, etc.

I'm questioning if some of the improvements in the Compli Blu aren't the very same ones done by Oppo in the 83SE. (Why would Theta reinvent the wheel when they can buy a better one from Oppo :D )

Are they going to add lead weights to unit (as they did with their LD players) to make it heavier?

Maybe they will use GOLD weights to explain the higher price. :) Now, if they would have offered a balanced design with appropriate outputs like the Denon player.... SJ

Are they going to add lead weights to unit (as they did with their LD players) to make it heavier?

Don't act if that was pointless; weight equals stability, a factor even more important when playing back an analog format like LD.

Theta's claim that it has improved audio circuits, etc.

I'm questioning if some of the improvements in the Compli Blu aren't the very same ones done by Oppo in the 83SE. (Why would Theta reinvent the wheel when they can buy a better one from Oppo :D )

I would expect them to do it at a much higher level than Oppo did with the 83SE.

That leaves the analog out portion. So could I go buy the $800 Oppo, a digital cable and any number of great external DACS and still be ahead?

You could not do high-rez audio with external dacs and a digital cables. None of the high-end dacs accept HDMI.

I have to say, all cynical comments aside, that this looks like the most interesting of the hie-end, Oppo re-badge players. It is the least expensive, appears to have had a decent number of modifications, and looks really nice.

Given the timing, I'd expect that this player is not based on the Oppo special edition. Perhaps that will change over time, but in my case I don't care because I just need a digital transport.

I do wonder, though, whether this player will be able to access the oppo firmware upgrades, or if not, what kind of delay will there be getting updates onto the Theta site.

From looking at the manual, for example, it does not look like ti has the most recent firmware version (that includes the subtitles shift feature).

Given the timing, I'd expect that this player is not based on the Oppo special edition.
There is a dead give away proving your point in their specs. The audio specs are identical to standard Oppo player. Sadly, it seems that they did not remasure them but simply reprinted Oppo's specs. Would have been nice to know if the new power supply made any difference in analog specs.

I do wonder, though, whether this player will be able to access the oppo firmware upgrades, or if not, what kind of delay will there be getting updates onto the Theta site.
They say they have changed the firmware. So there will likely be some delay.

So which is a better player, the Theta Compli Blu or the Lexicon BD-30? And which one offers more value?

And which one offers more value?

The Oppo !!!

So which is a better player, the Theta Compli Blu or the Lexicon BD-30? And which one offers more value?

Per www.audioholics.com (http://www.audioholics.com) it looks like Lexicon put the Oppo player in a Lexicon shell without doing any substantive changes. WOOPS!

Does the Compli Blu faceplate look the same as the old Theta Compli faceplate. Did Theta switch the drive and display because it results in less vibration on the drive, or because now the old faceplates work?

Will the better power supply stuff on the Theta version yield me better picture and/or sound using the Compli Blu solely as a HDMI transport?
If trustworthy reviews indicate this then I may be interested.

If you are using the Theta for its analog outs, then does it have the better ESS DACs in the Oppo SE edition. I hope so. But I have seen nothing to indicate this.

QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS

If money ain't the object and analog out is your game, I understand that Charles Hansen of Ayre Acoustics has outlined all the substantive changes that Ayre is making to the Oppo over at the Blu Ray hardware forum here at AVS.

It is possible that the Compli Blu may be a good buy for the buck for some of us. But I think in view of the above, I'll wait for the reviews.

If you are using the Theta for its analog outs, then does it have the better ESS DACs in the Oppo SE edition. I hope so. But I have seen nothing to indicate this.
We have data to indicate they do NOT use the SE platform. Here are the audio specs:

http://www.thetadigital.com/compli_blu_info.shtml

"Audio Characteristics**
Frequency 20Hz – 20kHz (±0.4dB)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio >110dB (A-weighted)
THD+N < 0.002% (1kHz at 0dBFS, 20kHz LPF)"

These are word for word, including the missing "response" in the first spec with Oppo standard edition. So if the power supply change makes a difference they are not able to show it (due to lack of testing or lack of difference).

Here are the Oppo SE audio specs:http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83SE/

Frequency: Stereo 20Hz - 44kHz (±0.2dB), 20kHz - 96kHz (±1.1dB)
7.1CH 20Hz - 44kHz (±0.4dB)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: >117dB (A-weighted, auto-mute off)
THD+N: < 0.002% (1kHz at 0dBFS, 20kHz LPF)
Dynamic Range: >104dB (24-bit unweighted)
Channel Separation: >106dB (24-bit unweighted)

It is a very strange world out there. Oppo licenses the base box to these people and then goes off and builds a higher end model than the higher end companies! If they were going to license something, they should have licensed the SE version and not sell it direct. Competing with your customer this way is a very odd way to do business. If I were in these other people's shoes, I would work in every possible way to find another platform now.

The Theta is not based on the SE version. It was designed and tooled before the SE became available.
It is modified in the following ways per Theta:
Here is the core of what Theta Digital has done this time around to "turbo charge" an existing transport:


1.Heavy 16 gauge steel chassis for rigidity.


2.Positions of transport mechanism and display have been swapped. Lowering the mechanism allows for elimination an intermediary mounting bracket and long standoffs, resulting in greater rigidity.


3.Completely rigid mounted mechanism replaces the original spring mounted system.


4.Special 3M adhesive damping material used on drawer assembly, further reducing vibration energy.


5.RS-232 control is included as a standard.


6.Custom designed front panel PCB.


7.Custom designed analog power supply, which includes the following:


A.An 80 Watt ultra-quiet toroidal transformer.


B.Additional, independent 10 Watt transformer for Standby circuit.


C.A total of 7 Amps of power available to supply the unit.


D.Four independently rectified and regulated power supplies.


E.Over 40,000 uF filter capacitance, in small, low ESR multiples.


F.2 oz. gold plated copper used throughout.


8.Proprietary Theta Digital customized software for superior performance, and that can be easily updated through USB port on the rear panel, or via Ethernet connection to Theta Digital's website.


9.Standard thick, brushed aluminum alloy cover provides better sonics and aesthetics as it reduces vibration energy further.


10.1/2" thick Tower and Faceplate matches other Theta Digital products.

I am told it will be the equal of the original Compli as a Redbook Transport as well as Analogue DSD & DVD-A output. The SD-DVD Video will be much better owing to the Anchor Bay ABT processing of the Oppo.
Whether these improvements will allow this unit to best the Analogue outputs of the SE version will only be told by listening. At least it seems to be a lot more than the re-packaged Lexicon.
We will have one in house very shortly to compare to a Denon DVD-5910CI, Elite 09FD, and a basic Oppo 83. We hope to get ahold of an SE as well, and I think we will have access to a NuForce SE verson shortly. I will post. Regards, Norm

Well it seems that Theta at least made a solid attempt at improving the BDP-83 whereas the Lexicon is nothing more than a standard BDP-83 set in additional housing and with slightly changed firmware to show a Lexicon splash. Whether the changes that Theta made results in a real-world improvements remain to be seen, but I give them a lot more credit than Lexicon for actually attempting improvements rather than selling a simply re-badged Oppo, if the information in this thread is correct.

The Theta is not based on the SE version. It was designed and tooled before the SE became available.
It is modified in the following ways per Theta:
Here is the core of what Theta Digital has done this time around to "turbo charge" an existing transport:


1.Heavy 16 gauge steel chassis for rigidity.


2.Positions of transport mechanism and display have been swapped. Lowering the mechanism allows for elimination an intermediary mounting bracket and long standoffs, resulting in greater rigidity.


3.Completely rigid mounted mechanism replaces the original spring mounted system.


4.Special 3M adhesive damping material used on drawer assembly, further reducing vibration energy.


5.RS-232 control is included as a standard.


6.Custom designed front panel PCB.


7.Custom designed analog power supply, which includes the following:


A.An 80 Watt ultra-quiet toroidal transformer.


B.Additional, independent 10 Watt transformer for Standby circuit.


C.A total of 7 Amps of power available to supply the unit.


D.Four independently rectified and regulated power supplies.


E.Over 40,000 uF filter capacitance, in small, low ESR multiples.


F.2 oz. gold plated copper used throughout.


8.Proprietary Theta Digital customized software for superior performance, and that can be easily updated through USB port on the rear panel, or via Ethernet connection to Theta Digital's website.


9.Standard thick, brushed aluminum alloy cover provides better sonics and aesthetics as it reduces vibration energy further.


10.1/2" thick Tower and Faceplate matches other Theta Digital products.

I am told it will be the equal of the original Compli as a Redbook Transport as well as Analogue DSD & DVD-A output. The SD-DVD Video will be much better owing to the Anchor Bay ABT processing of the Oppo.
Whether these improvements will allow this unit to best the Analogue outputs of the SE version will only be told by listening. At least it seems to be a lot more than the re-packaged Lexicon.
We will have one in house very shortly to compare to a Denon DVD-5910CI, Elite 09FD, and a basic Oppo 83. We hope to get ahold of an SE as well, and I think we will have access to a NuForce SE verson shortly. I will post. Regards, Norm

Before rendering a verdict on any universal players, consider this. If the Theta CBIII HDMI implementation delivers and outperforms MC audio over analog, all you'll ever need is a digital transport, and you need to evaluate all these mega buck players purely on their merits as digital transports (which will very likely take Ayre and the like out of the game). Same story if you already own Meridan, Halcro, Anthem, or any other high-end processor. In this scenario, - in a rational world - there would be no market for $5K+ universals. Except for the handful of purist who would want to use these epensive players to run SACD through the players convertors, and all the rest digital out.

IF Theta's CBIII HDMI (and Meridian HD621) turn out NOT to sound any better then running a top notch univeral through analog MC, theoretically the target market for $5K+ universals would be the new (post HDMI) analog die hards.

I think the dirty little secret is this. Mega bucks universal players with top notch analog output are NOT aimed at these post HDMI analog die hards (there are not enough of them). I suspect a custom HT installer selling a $50K+ package worth of electronics will find it easier to package a $5K+ universal into the project (that will only ever be used as a digital transport), than a $500 Oppo (this line item on the bill will be frowned on).

It would be very interesting to know how many universal players (with or without Blu Ray) out in the field with a few Gs worth of DACs and analog output electronics packed into them are in fact only used as digital transport. I suspect a lot. I know for a fact that all HT stores in ever walked into has set up their showroom running their very expensive source components as digital transports only.

So my theory is this gear is aimed the crowd that buy the most expensive components as a matter of principle. So high end manufacturers just need an expensive universal BR player in their product lineup, to be credible.

Incidentally, this is how Lexington can get away with repackaging the Oppo - most buyers will only ever use it as digital transport and video source, for which application it will probably be near SOTA. This all about marketing - not engineering.

All this nothwithstanding, if Theta knows their CBIII HDMI implementation will make the analog cricuits in their BR universal player obsolete, it will still make sense for them to release a reasonably priced (by high end standards) universal with matching Theta esthetics, rack mountable and possibly a bit better sounding than the Oppo as a transport. However, I think there is a reason they did not go all out and design a 10K player. It is a sign of their commitment to a digital source - all conversion in the CBIII architecture.

There are those when given 100% of something, will always want, and pay exhorbitant prices for, the perception of 101%.

Thank GOD for these people as the economy truly needs your illogical spending abilities at this point in time.

At 1080P24 and lossless, I see no need to spend over $500-$600. Anyone in this player category should be using HDMI if they know anything about surround processing. Analog is great but if you need it, there are a myriad of excellent SACD, CD only dedicated players that are far less $$.

So which is a better player, the Theta Compli Blu or the Lexicon BD-30? And which one offers more value?

Don't act if that was pointless; weight equals stability, a factor even more important when playing back an analog format like LD.

The K's have it in the snark department. I laughed. Twice.

There are those when given 100% of something, will always want, and pay exhorbitant prices for, the perception of 101%.

Thank GOD for these people as the economy truly needs your illogical spending abilities at this point in time.

Yes, some don't know a "black box" when they see one!!!@@@

Steve,

Have you seen (or heard) one? ;-)

Steve,

Have you seen (or heard) one? ;-)

No I haven't seen or heard either a Compli Blu or even a Lexicon with a
Lexicon "black box" encasing the original unchanged Oppo stuff. Have you?

Yup. I've heard a Lexicon because I own the Oppo, and as far as reports go - they are 100% identical inside. Now, if these reports are in error, then I take back my comments.

Will this be the first Theta anything that doesn't have balanced outs?

Will this be the first Theta anything that doesn't have balanced outs?
The original Compli had single ended Analogue outs only. The only balanced out was an AES/EBU Digital out.

Are theta owners expecting this player will perform as well via its analog vs HDMI through a theta processor?

Are theta owners expecting this player will perform as well via its analog vs HDMI through a theta processor?

Whatever expectations Theta owners may have is pure speculation, but Theta the manufacturer I believe is making a clear commitment to the HDMI architecture by not building a 10K player with 7K worth of DACs and analog output circuitry that would become entirely redundant the day their CBIII HDMI upgrade becomes available. Hopefully 3K will get you a digital transport that cannot reasonably be improved upon when used over HDMI.

Really? So if you mount an Oppo transport on a good base, damp the tray,and supply a linear power supply noted to improve the audio, that`s it.The best digital transport for 3K on can reasonable get?

Really? So if you mount an Oppo transport on a good base, damp the tray,and supply a linear power supply noted to improve the audio, that`s it.The best digital transport for 3K on can reasonable get?

Clearly far better digital transports can be build then the 3K Compli. However, what I said is "Hopefully 3K will get you a digital transport that cannot reasonably be improved upon when used over HDMI."

When someone figures out how to implement Hig Reze audio over HDMI sounding as good as going through an analog MC preamp, at that point the question is how much difference will the quality of the HDMI source make, i.e. will anyone be able to build an HDMI transport sounding better than a $500 oppo over HDMI.

Just because spending more money on transports for synchronous protocols gets you better sound, does not mean the same applies to asynchronous HDMI. It could very well be that if the HDMI interface separates audio from video, buffers, reclocks and upsamples the signal, the architecture becomes "HDMI source agnostic", and all you'll ever need is the Oppo as digital source, or the Theta if you prefer their styling.

If the HD621 achieves the same thing (I have not heard anyone conclusively say their megabucks Blu Ray player into the HD621 sounds any better than the Oppo). Note that PS Audio may be achieving the same thing already with their asynchronous I2S interface and bridge + digital lens. Apparently, using a $200 eternal storage device and their birdge + digital lens into their Perfectwave DAC, sounds exactly as good as using their $3000 Perfect Wave Transport using the same interface. Given these early indications the days of "bits are bits" may finally be upon us, this is not a good time to develop (or buy) a 10K universal if it will be used as digital transport. If you are planning to continue using analog outs it becomes a different story.

In any case, it is too early to tell, hence I said "hopefully".

Okay so our first handful of Compli's have landed in customers hands..

I got a call from Jim Coyle today who was totally thrilled as to what he heard and saw with just few days of the Compli blue in his hands..

He is an audiophile with Theta Casablanca and lots of other gear.. He has the Sony 3000 Cd player and he clearly stated that the Theta Was much nicer sonically and its not even broken in yet.

So has Theta done it again ? I think so , I have the Compli blu setup in my house and not only is it built like a tank but it sounds and looks great.

I know, that at the retail price of 3K or the special trade list price of 2495 sounds high but its really not..

Compared to everything out there in this price point, Theta actually has something special..

I am sure the arguments will start but back to basics, Look and Listen to one and then tell me what you think.

Craig

He has the Sony 3000 Cd player and he clearly stated that the Theta Was much nicer sonically and its not even broken in yet.
Craig
Yes, we already know that the Oppo sounds better than this player. My oppo even sounds a lot better than my old Theta Compli.

Yes, we already know that the Oppo sounds better than this player. My oppo even sounds a lot better than my old Theta Compli.
I love the Oppo for it's perfomance value ratio, that being said, been there done that vis a vi Compli & BD-83 for CD, DVD-A, & DSD. Not a chance. For Tru HD & DTS-MA I agree since the Oppo sounds a lot better than silence.

My oppo even sounds a lot better than my old Theta Compli.

Really ? how are you setup with these players? (analog out or simply digital)?

The test here should be Oppo against the Theta. From what I have learned from Theta is the audio is noticeably improved. Now we donn`t need opinions from dealers like Craig and me but from owners who have both. Selling a slightly used Oppo for close to MSRP should be no problem if one gets both for this test.

Really ? how are you setup with these players? (analog out or simply digital)?

Really ? how are you setup with these players? (analog out or simply digital)?
An Oppo 83 SE version replaced my Compli soon after this broke down. Only relevant comparison in my setup is analog out for multichannel SACD (because I used AES/EBU for movies on the Compli and use HDMI on the Oppo). I have another player for redbook CD.

This "test" (we only speak of Audio quality here) was in my highly treated room with 5 dedicated ac lines and the rest of components in use for playing SACD´s from the Oppo are:

Surround processor is Cary Cinema 11a. Amps are Jeff Rowland 301 for front L+R, Jeff Rowland 501 for center, Bel Canto S-500 for surround. 2 x Burmester 948 AC conditioners. Speakers are Aerial 20Tv2 for front L+R, Aerial cc5 for center + Audio Physic Minos sub to fill in the cc5, Aerial SR3 surround, 2 x Aerial SW12 for LFE.

The Oppo got all the same cables that the Compli had before, Wireworld 5.2 Gold Electra power cord and rca interconnects from the Oppo to the Surround processor are Wireworld gold eclipse 5.2 for front, center and sub, wireworld silver eclipse 5.2 for surrounds. From there all cabling is mix of Nordost Odin, Valhalla and Tyr.

Brand new, out of the box, I was chocked how good the Oppo 83 SE was, I had never before had this sound from my SACD´s. Without any doubt it was quite a lot better than my old Compli. Much more resolution and dynamics - or better in every area I can think of. I was not prepared for this, only hoped it wouldn´t be much worse than the Compli, but I was completely wrong. I understand technology is moving fast! Hope you believe me, I am not making this up. Have no other agenda.

ps 1: Haven´t heard the Compli Blu. Guess its audio quality also will be much better than the previous Compli also for SD DVD and SACD. I had an Compli Blu on order, but mainly because Theta doesn´t provide HD-SDI I have cancelled this. The Oppo 83 SE with HD-SDI seems to provide all what I need at the moment. It is so good that I think it would be better to invest in new projector or better surround processor if I should think of anything. If I should get a better BD player I would also look at the new Ayre. Seems to me that they have done more changes/upgrades than Theta, but the price is of course even higher.

ps 2: For video and SD DVD I used SDI out of my Compli, and now through the HD-SDI on the Oppo. Can´t see any difference.

An Oppo 83 SE version replaced my Compli soon after this broke down. Only relevant comparison in my setup is analog out for multichannel SACD (because I used AES/EBU for movies on the Compli and use HDMI on the Oppo). I have another player for redbook CD.

This "test" (we only speak of Audio quality here) was in my highly treated room with 5 dedicated ac lines and the rest of components in use for playing SACD´s from the Oppo are:

Surround processor is Cary Cinema 11a. Amps are Jeff Rowland 301 for front L+R, Jeff Rowland 501 for center, Bel Canto S-500 for surround. 2 x Burmester 948 AC conditioners. Speakers are Aerial 20Tv2 for front L+R, Aerial cc5 for center + Audio Physic Minos sub to fill in the cc5, Aerial SR3 surround, 2 x Aerial SW12 for LFE.

The Oppo got all the same cables that the Compli had before, Wireworld 5.2 Gold Electra power cord and rca interconnects from the Oppo to the Surround processor are Wireworld gold eclipse 5.2 for front, center and sub, wireworld silver eclipse 5.2 for surrounds. From there all cabling is mix of Nordost Odin, Valhalla and Tyr.

Brand new, out of the box, I was chocked how good the Oppo 83 SE was, I had never before had this sound from my SACD´s. Without any doubt it was quite a lot better than my old Compli. Much more resolution and dynamics - or better in every area I can think of. I was not prepared for this, only hoped it wouldn´t be much worse than the Compli, but I was completely wrong. I understand technology is moving fast! Hope you believe me, I am not making this up. Have no other agenda.

ps 1: Haven´t heard the Compli Blu. Guess its audio quality also will be much better than the previous Compli also for SD DVD and SACD. I had an Compli Blu on order, but mainly because Theta doesn´t provide HD-SDI I have cancelled this. The Oppo 83 SE with HD-SDI seems to provide all what I need at the moment. It is so good that I think it would be better to invest in new projector or better surround processor if I should think of anything. If I should get a better BD player I would also look at the new Ayre. Seems to me that they have done more changes/upgrades than Theta, but the price is of course even higher.

ps 2: For video and SD DVD I used SDI out of my Compli, and now through the HD-SDI on the Oppo. Can´t see any difference.
That's a nice rig. Your original post cited the BD-83 not the SE. The Std unit would not touch the old Compli. I do not doubt your observations on the SE however as I have not had occasion to listen to it yet. I was supposed to have a NuForce SE in house to test on Thursday, but I had to cancel to go to Mammoth. We're doing it in 2 weeks instead. We should have the Compli Blu, as well as a Denon DVD-5910 all disc player (no BD) and an Elite BDP-09FD. I shall post. Regards, Norm

That's a nice rig. Your original post cited the BD-83 not the SE. The Std unit would not touch the old Compli. I do not doubt your observations on the SE however as I have not had occasion to listen to it yet. I was supposed to have a NuForce SE in house to test on Thursday, but I had to cancel to go to Mammoth. We're doing it in 2 weeks instead. We should have the Compli Blu, as well as a Denon DVD-5910 all disc player (no BD) and an Elite BDP-09FD. I shall post. Regards, Norm

That will be interesting.

An Oppo 83 SE version replaced my Compli soon after this broke down. Only relevant comparison in my setup is analog out for multichannel SACD (because I used AES/EBU for movies on the Compli and use HDMI on the Oppo). I have another player for redbook CD.

This "test" (we only speak of Audio quality here) was in my highly treated room with 5 dedicated ac lines and the rest of components in use for playing SACD´s from the Oppo are:

Surround processor is Cary Cinema 11a. Amps are Jeff Rowland 301 for front L+R, Jeff Rowland 501 for center, Bel Canto S-500 for surround. 2 x Burmester 948 AC conditioners. Speakers are Aerial 20Tv2 for front L+R, Aerial cc5 for center + Audio Physic Minos sub to fill in the cc5, Aerial SR3 surround, 2 x Aerial SW12 for LFE.

The Oppo got all the same cables that the Compli had before, Wireworld 5.2 Gold Electra power cord and rca interconnects from the Oppo to the Surround processor are Wireworld gold eclipse 5.2 for front, center and sub, wireworld silver eclipse 5.2 for surrounds. From there all cabling is mix of Nordost Odin, Valhalla and Tyr.

Brand new, out of the box, I was chocked how good the Oppo 83 SE was, I had never before had this sound from my SACD´s. Without any doubt it was quite a lot better than my old Compli. Much more resolution and dynamics - or better in every area I can think of. I was not prepared for this, only hoped it wouldn´t be much worse than the Compli, but I was completely wrong. I understand technology is moving fast! Hope you believe me, I am not making this up. Have no other agenda.

ps 1: Haven´t heard the Compli Blu. Guess its audio quality also will be much better than the previous Compli also for SD DVD and SACD. I had an Compli Blu on order, but mainly because Theta doesn´t provide HD-SDI I have cancelled this. The Oppo 83 SE with HD-SDI seems to provide all what I need at the moment. It is so good that I think it would be better to invest in new projector or better surround processor if I should think of anything. If I should get a better BD player I would also look at the new Ayre. Seems to me that they have done more changes/upgrades than Theta, but the price is of course even higher.

ps 2: For video and SD DVD I used SDI out of my Compli, and now through the HD-SDI on the Oppo. Can´t see any difference.

May I ask if you ever compared the digital route for multi channel SACD on the Oppo using PCM output over HDMI, and compared it with MC analog? If so how did this compare? Conversely, did you ever play Blu Ray over the analog outs and how did this compare with HDMI?

Reason I'm asking is that if you found all Multi Channel High Rez audio to sound better over analog, you may get more bang for the buck upgrading your MC analog preamp than sinking 10K into an Ayre (if money is no object you could of course do both). I personally was using the very good Pioneer 09 Blu Ray into the MC analog inputs on my Onkyo processor, and going from the Onkyo to a Theta Six Shooter was a night and day difference. I suspect you would get a big lift from going from the Cary 11a to a six shooter (or equivalent). Since you indicated you have a separate 2 channel setup, you could use the second input on the six shooter for 2 channel and integrate your multi channel and 2 channel systems. The casablanca III you would need a to control the six shooter can be used for digital sources such as satelite receiver. Finally, if it turns out Theta's forthcoming HDMI implementation bests the six shooter analog route you can upgrade your casablanca III and go back to digital.

I received my March Stereophile today. There is a comparison between the Oppo BD-83 and the Lexicon. Needless to say, Kal's findings are essentially the same as Audioholics. Kal did find improvement with the BD-83SE over the regular version.

Let's hope other high end companies do better than Lexicon with their Oppo derived players, although I'm sticking with my Oppo.

May I ask if you ever compared the digital route for multi channel SACD on the Oppo using PCM output over HDMI, and compared it with MC analog? If so how did this compare? Conversely, did you ever play Blu Ray over the analog outs and how did this compare with HDMI?

Reason I'm asking is that if you found all Multi Channel High Rez audio to sound better over analog, you may get more bang for the buck upgrading your MC analog preamp than sinking 10K into an Ayre (if money is no object you could of course do both). I personally was using the very good Pioneer 09 Blu Ray into the MC analog inputs on my Onkyo processor, and going from the Onkyo to a Theta Six Shooter was a night and day difference. I suspect you would get a big lift from going from the Cary 11a to a six shooter (or equivalent). Since you indicated you have a separate 2 channel setup, you could use the second input on the six shooter for 2 channel and integrate your multi channel and 2 channel systems. The casablanca III you would need a to control the six shooter can be used for digital sources such as satelite receiver. Finally, if it turns out Theta's forthcoming HDMI implementation bests the six shooter analog route you can upgrade your casablanca III and go back to digital.

You have a very good point. I have compared the analog outs from the Oppo vs digital/HDMI and using the DACs in my Cinema 11a. For movies I prefer going digital, but for SACD I prefer analog. I don´t know why it is so, that is just my findings.

Six Shooter/CBIII (or iV?) could be of interest. I was hesitating for a moment because of lack of room correction, but have done some changes in my setup recently and added more acoustic treatment which makes me think I no longer must have this. Another option is a high quality multichannel preamp like the Audio Research. Then I could keep my Cinema 11a which I will need for several other digital sources and integrate it with an analog mc preamp. (I am one of the few out here which haven´t had much problems with this unit, works very nice in my system). My 2ch preamp has cinema bypass, so I would let the L+R signals from the mc preamp go through the 2ch preamp, not the other way around.

I am hearing very good reports about the Oppo SE. Too bad Thete did not have that model to build this player. I would certainly buy it considering how nicely done the Theta power supply looks

You have a very good point. I have compared the analog outs from the Oppo vs digital/HDMI and using the DACs in my Cinema 11a. For movies I prefer going digital, but for SACD I prefer analog. I don´t know why it is so, that is just my findings.

Six Shooter/CBIII (or iV?) could be of interest. I was hesitating for a moment because of lack of room correction, but have done some changes in my setup recently and added more acoustic treatment which makes me think I no longer must have this. Another option is a high quality multichannel preamp like the Audio Research. Then I could keep my Cinema 11a which I will need for several other digital sources and integrate it with an analog mc preamp. (I am one of the few out here which haven´t had much problems with this unit, works very nice in my system). My 2ch preamp has cinema bypass, so I would let the L+R signals from the mc preamp go through the 2ch preamp, not the other way around.

For now, getting an Acoustic Research might be your best bet to upgrade Multi Channel analog sound quality, without loosing the flexibility of the Cinema 11a. If your budget allows, you could then take things up another notch on MC SACD by getting a universal player with reference DACs and analog circuit (possibly Ayre, may be Marantz UD9004). The only possible compromise I see with using the Audio Research + Cinema 11 + 2 channel preamp is you would need to run the Cinema 11a multi channel analog outputs through an active multi channel analog input on the AR. This is one redundant circuit that could possibly compromising sound quality. You could ask if Audio Research could rewire their Multi Channel 3 input to bypass mode, which would solve this problem. Also, I do not know how the AR compares sonically to a six shooter, but it is probably in the same leaugue. Another potential additional benefit is that unless you are using some esoteric $10K plus 2 channel preamp, the Audio Research MP1 (and six shooter for that matter), may be at par with what you are using now, allowing you to take it out of the chain. If Theta delivers HDMI, their CBIII + six shooter will probably be superior sonically to AR MP1 + Cinema 11a, but it would be more expensive and most importantly it is not there yet. Another multi channel preamp option would be a EMM switchman 3.

I am hearing very good reports about the Oppo SE. Too bad Thete did not have that model to build this player. I would certainly buy it considering how nicely done the Theta power supply looks

I agree!

I agree!

Wonder why the designers at Theta and Lexicon could not upgrade the DACs themselves (Not sure if Ayre replace the DACs), if Oppo can do it adding just $300 to the cost of the unit. At this point the best price/performance bet may be the Nuforce upgraded SE, but we'll soon find out when Norm does the shootout between that player and the Theta.

Also, I do not know how the AR compares sonically to a six shooter, but it is probably in the same leaugue. Another potential additional benefit is that unless you are using some esoteric $10K plus 2 channel preamp, the Audio Research MP1 (and six shooter for that matter), may be at par with what you are using now, allowing you to take it out of the chain. If Theta delivers HDMI, their CBIII + six shooter will probably be superior sonically to AR MP1 + Cinema 11a, but it would be more expensive and most importantly it is not there yet. Another multi channel preamp option would be a EMM switchman 3.

IMO the Six Shooter is better than the LS25 which I believe the MAP1 is based. I have owned the LS25 briefly.

IMO the Six Shooter is better than the LS25 which I believe the MAP1 is based. I have owned the LS25 briefly.

I assume you mean the SS is better than the Audio Research MP1? the MAP1 is the McCormack. (not sure what is up with naming of multi channel preamps. Conrad Johnson has a MET1).

For now, getting an Acoustic Research might be your best bet to upgrade Multi Channel analog sound quality, without loosing the flexibility of the Cinema 11a. If your budget allows, you could then take things up another notch on MC SACD by getting a universal player with reference DACs and analog circuit (possibly Ayre, may be Marantz UD9004). The only possible compromise I see with using the Audio Research + Cinema 11 + 2 channel preamp is you would need to run the Cinema 11a multi channel analog outputs through an active multi channel analog input on the AR. This is one redundant circuit that could possibly compromising sound quality. You could ask if Audio Research could rewire their Multi Channel 3 input to bypass mode, which would solve this problem. Also, I do not know how the AR compares sonically to a six shooter, but it is probably in the same leaugue. Another potential additional benefit is that unless you are using some esoteric $10K plus 2 channel preamp, the Audio Research MP1 (and six shooter for that matter), may be at par with what you are using now, allowing you to take it out of the chain. If Theta delivers HDMI, their CBIII + six shooter will probably be superior sonically to AR MP1 + Cinema 11a, but it would be more expensive and most importantly it is not there yet. Another multi channel preamp option would be a EMM switchman 3.

I am mostly a 2 channel guy, at least 90% of my collection is redbook and I have invested heavily in 2 ch gear. I have latest Burmester reference cd and preamp. So I believe there isn´t any multich preamp in the same league. At least I can say that my current preamp is far, far better in all areas than my previous Theta GenVIII (mkI).

I would prefer, if possible, not to have mc preamp and surround proc. in two different boxes so if I could replace my Cary Cinema 11a sometime in the future with a top notch surr.processor I would be happy. I have also heard very good reports about the Krell processors, the 707 and also the s1200, when it comes to the analog section. The 707 is too expensive I think, so I am mostly interested in the s1200 and to know how the new Theta CB will compete with this.

I received my March Stereophile today. There is a comparison between the Oppo BD-83 and the Lexicon. Needless to say, Kal's findings are essentially the same as Audioholics. Kal did find improvement with the BD-83SE over the regular version.

Let's hope other high end companies do better than Lexicon with their Oppo derived players, although I'm sticking with my Oppo.

I've not yet received the March issue so obviously not clear on exactly what comparisons Kal made, but a couple of observations:

1. If used as a digital transport and/or an 'unzipping' digital transport I am not sure that there are even hi-end improvements to be made. Does a better power supply or digital clock really make an appreciable difference? Perhaps it really is just going to be about a nicer look and feel.

2. When analog outputs enter the equation, then I imagine it becomes a somewhat different 'kettle-of-fish'. Since I do not need it in my system, I've not compared the Oppo analog to anyhting else. Presumably this is where the hi-end can offer some benefit.

I am mostly a 2 channel guy, at least 90% of my collection is redbook and I have invested heavily in 2 ch gear. I have latest Burmester reference cd and preamp. So I believe there isn´t any multich preamp in the same league. At least I can say that my current preamp is far, far better in all areas than my previous Theta GenVIII (mkI).

I would prefer, if possible, not to have mc preamp and surround proc. in two different boxes so if I could replace my Cary Cinema 11a sometime in the future with a top notch surr.processor I would be happy. I have also heard very good reports about the Krell processors, the 707 and also the s1200, when it comes to the analog section. The 707 is too expensive I think, so I am mostly interested in the s1200 and to know how the new Theta CB will compete with this.

A single box will involve some level of compromise on MC SACD analog. I would wait for Theta to release the CBIII HDMI upgrade and if the reviews are positive get one to replace the Cary and hide a six shooter behind your audio rack (that is what I do - it is only about 8 inches deep).

IMO the Six Shooter is better than the LS25 which I believe the MAP1 is based. I have owned the LS25 briefly.

I don't own a Six Shooter as I'm still in the Theta dark ages with a CBII but I did own the AR LS25 MKII for a few months and was not impressed. The sound quality of my Stax preamp that is almost 30 years old remains my favorite 2 channel path. However, I did like how AR's HT bypass feature worked which certainly doesn't exist on my Stax; now I use a passive preamp as an HT bypass. It's more cables but it allows me to keep my preferred source (turntable) in the system as the Stax supports moving coil cartridges. My L&R main speakers are powered by Stax DA80M class A mono-block amps which are nice match for the preamp. I bought the Oppo SE as a gap filler while waiting for the Compli-Blu and I'm very happy with it. I mostly listen to the 2 channel path and since I'm a bit behind on the MC front, I can't offer much in that area. However, the SE is better than any other 2 channel unit I have owned (including a few a still own). I will likely purchase a mid-fi SSP, ditch the CBII and stick with my current 2 channel path.

Sam

I don't own a Six Shooter as I'm still in the Theta dark ages with a CBII but I did own the AR LS25 MKII for a few months and was not impressed. The sound quality of my Stax preamp that is almost 30 years old remains my favorite 2 channel path. However, I did like how AR's HT bypass feature worked which certainly doesn't exist on my Stax; now I use a passive preamp as an HT bypass. It's more cables but it allows me to keep my preferred source (turntable) in the system as the Stax supports moving coil cartridges. My L&R main speakers are powered by Stax DA80M class A mono-block amps which are nice match for the preamp. I bought the Oppo SE as a gap filler while waiting for the Compli-Blu and I'm very happy with it. I mostly listen to the 2 channel path and since I'm a bit behind on the MC front, I can't offer much in that area. However, the SE is better than any other 2 channel unit I have owned (including a few a still own). I will likely purchase a mid-fi SSP, ditch the CBII and stick with my current 2 channel path.

Sam

You may this find the Oppo SE is better than the Compli Blu Ray because the Oppo upgrade to the standrd unit for $400 appears to be more substantial than what Theta will do for $2500 extra. If you own a CBII you are in a bit of a bind because it wont control a Six Shooter, but if you own a CBIII, getting a six shooter is a far better strategy than ditching the Casablanca and getting a mid fi SSP.

You may this find the Oppo SE is better than the Compli Blu Ray because the Oppo upgrade to the standrd unit for $400 appears to be more substantial than what Theta will do for $2500 extra. If you own a CBII you are in a bit of a bind because it wont control a Six Shooter, but if you own a CBIII, getting a six shooter is a far better strategy than ditching the Casablanca and getting a mid fi SSP.

I don't plan to get the Compli-Blu now That I see what it's made of; Im very happy with the Oppo SE. I'm really on the fence about the Casablanca. One thought is to get the CBIII upgrade and buy a used SS when everyone else upgrades to the HD version (assuming it's better than the Six Shooter). Considering I don't use CBII for 2 channel, it's not worth the money to me to upgrade all the way to the HD as I would need all new DACs. Upgrading to the CBIII+SS would be a little more expensive than a mid-fi SSP but it wouldn't leave the Casablanca sitting in the closet. On the other side, I really like some of the more modern features of newer SSPs.

I assume you mean the SS is better than the Audio Research MP1? the MAP1 is the McCormack. (not sure what is up with naming of multi channel preamps. Conrad Johnson has a MET1).

Yes the MP1 and not the MAP1.

IAt least I can say that my current preamp is far, far better in all areas than my previous Theta GenVIII (mkI).

I would prefer, if possible, not to have mc preamp and surround proc. in two different boxes so if I could replace my Cary Cinema 11a sometime in the future with a top notch surr.processor I would be happy. I have also heard very good reports about the Krell processors, the 707 and also the s1200, when it comes to the analog section. The 707 is too expensive I think, so I am mostly interested in the s1200 and to know how the new Theta CB will compete with this.

The Six Shooter is better than the Gen VIII MkI but not the MKII from the reports of owners. With the GenVIII MkI the best sound is from running it through a Six Shooter with fixed output. However when guys had the upgrade done, they reported the the MkII now had the advantage. NO surround processor is close enough to give you every thing that you want. I have been reading for over 10 years about how this model is or that model was a good as a separate pre-amp, but so far it has not been true. The Six Shooter actually has the same internal parts as the Casablanca. However, sticking it in a separate box and away from the digital circuits of the CBIII shows exactly how much of an effect having everything in one box has on sound quality. I know of several two channel pre-amps better than the Six Shooter, all are above 10k in cost. It is is a bargain for a Casablanca owner who also does two channel and it's better than most of the pre-amps in the 5k range that I have tried. The Burmester reference pre-amp is like 40k? I would be extremely pissed if it did not clobber the Six Shooter :) and the Gen VIII either version which are a fraction of it's price.

I don't own a Six Shooter as I'm still in the Theta dark ages with a CBII but I did own the AR LS25 MKII for a few months and was not impressed.

Sam

I believe the MP1 is based on the LS25MkI which was not as good as the MKII.

Wonder why the designers at Theta and Lexicon could not upgrade the DACs themselves (Not sure if Ayre replace the DACs), if Oppo can do it adding just $300 to the cost of the unit. At this point the best price/performance bet may be the Nuforce upgraded SE, but we'll soon find out when Norm does the shootout between that player and the Theta.

That's why I like Charles at Ayre. He will give you the straight truth about the dacs and the reasons why or why they were not changed. With many other companies, it's like pulling teeth to get the truth.

. One thought is to get the CBIII upgrade and buy a used SS when everyone else upgrades to the HD version (assuming it's better than the Six Shooter). Considering I don't use CBII for 2 channel, it's not worth the money to me to upgrade all the way to the HD

It's likely the CBIII with HDMI will not sound better than the Six Shooter. The current Meridian 861 and current CBIII do not. A few years back, I compared the Meridian 861 against the Six Shooter with an older Marantz SACD player and the Six shooter clobbered the 861,IMO with CD even with the 861 employing room correction. A VTL 7.5 pre-amp also in the same system clobbered both of them. You may want to consider the Premium dacs, they are the same build quality and maybe better than some, from what I have seen of the internals of many current surround processor. Depending on what two channel pre-amp and how much you like the sound, it would not surprise me if the SS can beat your pre-amp especially if it's one that cost below 10k.Much of the over 10k stuff is better. One of my friends brought over his two channel pre-amp and was certain that it would be better than the SS, I mean it's just this ugly black box. The difference was significant if favor of the SS;). He cursed me and said I had "set him up,":D and has not been by my place since. Still, much of this is personal preference and there may be a certain quality your 2 channel pre-amp has that the SS does not. I am considering getting a better pre-amp for 2 channel than the Six Shooter but have not been able to so far justify what it will cost.

I do 7.1 and need a surround processor to employee post-processing like Dolby Digital pro-logic IIx to expand 5.1 to 7.1 which is why I will get the upgrade. I am not buying it because I think it will sound better. The new version of the CBIII with HDMI may sound better than the current model because the power supply is being improved in it as well.

I don't plan to get the Compli-Blu now That I see what it's made of; Im very happy with the Oppo SE. I'm really on the fence about the Casablanca. One thought is to get the CBIII upgrade and buy a used SS when everyone else upgrades to the HD version (assuming it's better than the Six Shooter). Considering I don't use CBII for 2 channel, it's not worth the money to me to upgrade all the way to the HD as I would need all new DACs. Upgrading to the CBIII+SS would be a little more expensive than a mid-fi SSP but it wouldn't leave the Casablanca sitting in the closet. On the other side, I really like some of the more modern features of newer SSPs.

Upgrading the CBII to CBIII with the intent of using it as a Six SHooter controller only is not cost effective. The best strategy is to either buy a non HDMI compliant CBIII (going for about 3K), but better still is to get a used HDMI compliant CBIII, sell the cards and (trading in old cards to put back into your own unit). For example, there is a CBIII with 2 Xtreme cards listed now on A'gon. If you get it for say 5,500 and sell the two cards for about 4,500, you got yourself a CBIII that can serve as a six shooter for 1,000 - far less than upgrading your CBII. Add a used Six Shooter for 1K, and you got yourself a SOTA multi channel preamp for 2K (and a bix black box wasting rack space). I own a CBIII with Xtreme cards and Six Shooter. If the HDMI upgrade blows the Six Shooter out of the water I will upgrade. If not, I will sell my cards and use the CBIII as a six shooter controller, and processor for my satallite receiver. Only problem with this strategies is that given the less than stellar reliability of the CBIIIs, buying used and messing with cards is not risk free.

I do 7.1 and need a surround processor to employee post-processing like Dolby Digital pro-logic IIx to expand 5.1 to 7.1 which is why I will get the upgrade. I am not buying it because I think it will sound better. The new version of the CBIII with HDMI may sound better than the current model because the power supply is being improved in it as well.

Why not do the 7.1 processing in a capable source component and stick with your two six shooters? This would work out far cheaper.

I believe the MP1 is based on the LS25MkI which was not as good as the MKII.

Actually, I think the the MP1 is based on the Reference 2 MKII and LS25MKII preamp technologies. The LS25MKII was my first experience with AR's hybrid designs but the MP1 is all solid state and I have not heard (or even seen) one. While I've had many tubed preamps and power amps from AR over the years (SP3, SP11?, D76, D90, VTM120), I never liked their earlier solid state designs. Those products always led me towards Levinson and Stax. Not all great companies make all great products for everyone's taste. This is an incredibly subjective hobby; especially, at this level.

It's likely the CBIII with HDMI will not sound better than the Six Shooter. The current Meridian 861 and current CBIII do not. A few years back, I compared the Meridian 861 against the Six Shooter with an older Marantz SACD player and the Six shooter clobbered the 861,IMO with CD even with the 861 employing room correction.

The Six Shooter only sounds as good as the signal you feed it, so it does not do any clobbering on its own. If Theta's HDMI implementation takes the HDMI interface related degradation out of the equation, and the Six Shooter eliminates 95% of the analog preamp related signal degradation, SQ difference would be almost entirely the result of difference in quality of the DACs in the CBIII and the source component. If 10K worth of Xtreme DACs can't beat $400 worth of DACs in an Oppo SE something is very wrong.... If on the other hand it turns out the HDMI interface related degradation cannot be engineered out of the equation the $400 DACs may still rule. We'll see.

Upgrading the CBII to CBIII with the intent of using it as a Six SHooter controller only is not cost effective. The best strategy is to either buy a non HDMI compliant CBIII (going for about 3K), but better still is to get a used HDMI compliant CBIII, sell the cards and (trading in old cards to put back into your own unit). For example, there is a CBIII with 2 Xtreme cards listed now on A'gon. If you get it for say 5,500 and sell the two cards for about 4,500, you got yourself a CBIII that can serve as a six shooter for 1,000 - far less than upgrading your CBII. Add a used Six Shooter for 1K, and you got yourself a SOTA multi channel preamp for 2K (and a bix black box wasting rack space). I own a CBIII with Xtreme cards and Six Shooter. If the HDMI upgrade blows the Six Shooter out of the water I will upgrade. If not, I will sell my cards and use the CBIII as a six shooter controller, and processor for my satallite receiver. Only problem with this strategies is that given the less than stellar reliability of the CBIIIs, buying used and messing with cards is not risk free.

You are correct, the only advantage of upgrading my CBII vs. buying a used CBIII is the reduction of black boxes in closets and maybe(??) a slight advantage of being the original owner of my current CB. Your comment on reliability of the CBIII is interesting. I'm so over software glitches and having to reach behind the cabinet to cold start the CBII cause something doesn't work right. If the CBIII is no better than the CBII in that regard, I once again lean towards a mid-fi SSP and closet the CBII (it can rest with its other Theta components that don't work anymore and can't be fixed). MC sound only has to be good to very good for me as I have a great 2 channel path and that's all I use for serious listening. That being said, I understand the importance of the initial signal processing to get a good final output.

You are correct, the only advantage of upgrading my CBII vs. buying a used CBIII is the reduction of black boxes in closets and maybe(??) a slight advantage of being the original owner of my current CB. Your comment on reliability of the CBIII is interesting. I'm so over software glitches and having to reach behind the cabinet to cold start the CBII cause something doesn't work right. If the CBIII is no better than the CBII in that regard, I once again lean towards a mid-fi SSP and closet the CBII (it can rest its other Theta components that don't work anymore and can't be fixed). MC sound only has to be good to very good for me as I have a great 2 channel path and that's all I use for serious listening. That being said, I understand the importance of the initial signal processing to get a good final output.

Here is another option. If you use a mid-fi processor you need to either run the Oppo SE through a multi channel analog bypass or use HDMI in which case you loose all the benefits of the excellent DACs in the Oppo SE. So why not get a single box - mid-fi analog multi channel preamp? You could get a Parasound, but if you're interested I have a McCormack MAP1 for sale. I ran multi channel audio from my Pioneer 09 Blu ray over HDMI into an mid-fi processor (upgraded Onkyo 885), also used the MC analog bypass in the Onkyo, but going through the McCormack sounded better than both these "mid-fi processor paths". The Six Shooter I am using now takes things up another notch, but this is a lot priceyer and takes up a lot of rackspace - not to mention reliability concern induced stress.

Here is another option. If you use a mid-fi processor you need to either run the Oppo SE through a multi channel analog bypass or use HDMI in which case you loose all the benefits of the excellent DACs in the Oppo SE. So why not get a single box - mid-fi analog multi channel preamp? You could get a Parasound, but if you're interested I have a McCormack MAP1 for sale. I ran multi channel audio from my Pioneer 09 Blu ray over HDMI into an mid-fi processor (upgraded Onkyo 885), also used the MC analog bypass in the Onkyo, but going through the McCormack sounded better than both these "mid-fi processor paths". The Six Shooter I am using now takes things up another notch, but this is a lot priceyer and takes up a lot of rackspace - not to mention reliability concern induced stress.

I need to think about this option from a HT-wide perspective. Two channel was/is so much easier!!

Thanks!

I was waiting forever for this player from Theta.
Now that I have read though the posts here, I think I will stick with The Oppo SE.

Incidently, anyone interested in a like new pair of Theta CITADEL 400Watt monoblocks or Theta Gen VIII DA/Preamp?

I am selling mine for less than 1/2 the new price!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/4341045445_7957b6fc56_b.jpg

GoFRO,
Nice setup. I have once had the exact same. I have sold the Theta gear but still have my 20Ts (now mkII). I see you have replaced the original cones under the head unit with some other cones. Is it BDR cones or what is it? And also about the plattform you have placed the speaker on. Is it the BDR The Shelfe? I would appreciate if you told more about this.

Also, what are you planning to replace your Theta gear with?

Thanks,
Armand

The Aerail 20T speakers - I tweaked a little with BDR cones under the midrange, brass screws on all woofers, brass tip toes on granite slabs.
BDR Source shelf under the transport and Theta VIII components.
Have since sold the 20T speakers and will be setting up some Evolution Acoustic MM3 speakers.
I am trying a 1060 Boulder amp.

As you can see I cannot stay with anything for very long!
That is why I need to sell the Theta CITADEL 400Watt monoblocks or Theta Gen VIII DA/Preamp at such a drastic discount.

The Aerail 20T speakers - I tweaked a little with BDR cones under the midrange, brass screws on all woofers, brass tip toes on granite slabs.
BDR Source shelf under the transport and Theta VIII components.
Have since sold the 20T speakers and will be setting up some Evolution Acoustic MM3 speakers.
I am trying a 1060 Boulder amp.

As you can see I cannot stay with anything for very long!
That is why I need to sell the Theta CITADEL 400Watt monoblocks or Theta Gen VIII DA/Preamp at such a drastic discount.

That is a handsome looking system GoFro.

Sean

Wonder why the designers at Theta and Lexicon could not upgrade the DACs themselves (Not sure if Ayre replace the DACs), i

Yes, Ayre is replacing the dacs. The thread on his player is extremely interesting. Best read in a long time.

From reading the thread, Charles also seems to think the power supply is a bigger deal than the dacs. Seems like he thinks based on design that the Theta player may sit between his player and the Oppos.

I was waiting forever for this player from Theta.
Now that I have read though the posts here, I think I will stick with The Oppo SE.

Incidently, anyone interested in a like new pair of Theta CITADEL 400Watt monoblocks or Theta Gen VIII DA/Preamp?

I am selling mine for less than 1/2 the new price!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/4341045445_7957b6fc56_b.jpg

Thanks you for posting this picture. It's like and audiophile's version of porn. Excellent.

I have decided to just sell the Theta CITADEL amps and keep the Theta GEN VIII DA and upgrade to the Revision 2.

Made a deal on this monster Boulder Amp that is coming in next week.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2767/4368537765_03ea5d8250_b.jpg

From reading the thread, Charles also seems to think the power supply is a bigger deal than the dacs. Seems like he thinks based on design that the Theta player may sit between his player and the Oppos.

In fact, I appears he thinks the biggest favor Theta and others can do to HDMI audio quality is implement HDMI 1.3a standards based ARC (Audio Rate Control). Wonder if Theta is actually planning on doing this between their Compli BR and the forthcoming CBIII HDMI upgrade. May be interesting to ask them.

In fact, I appears he thinks the biggest favor Theta and others can do to HDMI audio quality is implement HDMI 1.3a standards based ARC (Audio Rate Control). Wonder if Theta is actually planning on doing this between their Compli BR and the forthcoming CBIII HDMI upgrade. May be interesting to ask them.

Yes, I have been wondering about this. It would be sweet1

In fact, I appears he thinks the biggest favor Theta and others can do to HDMI audio quality is implement HDMI 1.3a standards based ARC (Audio Rate Control). Wonder if Theta is actually planning on doing this between their Compli BR and the forthcoming CBIII HDMI upgrade. May be interesting to ask them.

I am guessing that they will not. Theta is using the same platform as Classe. I do not believe Classe has the ARC?

The Six Shooter only sounds as good as the signal you feed it, so it does not do any clobbering on its own. If Theta's HDMI implementation takes the HDMI interface related degradation out of the equation, and the Six Shooter eliminates 95% of the analog preamp related signal degradation, SQ difference would be almost entirely the result of difference in quality of the DACs in the CBIII and the source component. If 10K worth of Xtreme DACs can't beat $400 worth of DACs in an Oppo SE something is very wrong.... If on the other hand it turns out the HDMI interface related degradation cannot be engineered out of the equation the $400 DACs may still rule. We'll see.

No the Six Shooter does not do any clobbering on it's own. Still all surround processors have volume controls after the digital to analog conversion. The Six Shooter provides superior sounding volume control and clobbers that of any surround processor that I have heard. The new Theta does not have a chance at taking the HDMI interface degradation away. They are struggling just to get a working product to market. The problem that I see is that it's not just the Xtreme dacs vs the Six Shooter and player. You should try some of the other high-end processors too and see how that compare;). Then I suspect you will have a long list of "something is very wrong."

Why not do the 7.1 processing in a capable source component and stick with your two six shooters? This would work out far cheaper.

Need the post processing of a surround processor to expand 5.1 to 7.1. I have done it the analog route with a Circle Surround EX expander to get to 6.1 but too much hassle. If there was a great blu-ray player that could expand 5.1 to 7.1 then I would not need the upgrade. I saw something about Oppo doing pro-logic but will it expand a 5.1 track to 7.1?

Is post processing of lossless 5.1 to 8.1 (my current theta setup) possible?

No the Six Shooter does not do any clobbering on it's own. Still all surround processors have volume controls after the digital to analog conversion. The Six Shooter provides superior sounding volume control and clobbers that of any surround processor that I have heard. The new Theta does not have a chance at taking the HDMI interface degradation away. They are struggling just to get a working product to market. The problem that I see is that it's not just the Xtreme dacs vs the Six Shooter and player. You should try some of the other high-end processors too and see how that compare;). Then I suspect you will have a long list of "something is very wrong."

It will be very interesting indeed to see what Theta comes up with. So far based on what I have read analog out will definitely rule for SACD. Folks that prefer HDMI for DVD/Blu Ray sources only do so as compared to the MC analog bypass in their processor, which is not at the same level of a six shooter. Thenagain, Charles Hanssen flat out said he expects the HDMI route to sound better for Multi Channel, because no player will have the multi channel analog performance of his two channel player.

Irrespectively, HDMI appears to be a fundamentally flawed interface for high rez audio if it takes the alledged industry leaders 4 years to (may be!) come up with something that sounds marginally better than a $1300 Oppo Nuforce over analog, for a multiple of the price.

I guess bass management, post processing and room correction and fear of cables will be the value proposition.

Folks that prefer HDMI for DVD/Blu Ray sources only do so as compared to the MC analog bypass in their processor, which is not at the same level of a six shooter.



That's it exactly.

If bluray/DVD via hdmi into a CBIII is inferior to, say, an Oppo SE into an SS, the update is a failure, particularly with either of the upper end DACs. If two channel music out of the SE via analog is better than coax into the SupII or Extreme, ditto.

Since the compli announcement. I've posted here about the hope of ARC w/the processor -- it's an obvious way to add value to both pieces and separate the system from the pack. Charles Hansen indicated it's not too difficult to do, but it doesn't appear Theta's done anything other than incorporate HDMI, no other value added. Maybe the power supply, but that might just be an HDMI card req. I think the superiority of the CBIII has always lied in the quality of the volume control, and it's digital 'voicing' -- remnants of the old Theta. We'll see what's up moving forward

If bluray/DVD via hdmi into a CBIII is inferior to, say, an Oppo SE into an SS, the update is a failure, particularly with either of the upper end DACs. If two channel music out of the SE via analog is better than coax into the SupII or Extreme, ditto.



Then all surround processors are failures it that is the standard. The Six Shooter and a good transport is better than any I have heard. It's always been that way. Analog pre-amp and dedicated player beat a surround processor. Does not matter it it's the one Theta makes or some other company's. Expecting Theta's upgrade to do this would be expecting Theta to redefine the last 10 or 15 years of the way surround processors have fared against good analog pre-amps.

Is post processing of lossless 5.1 to 8.1 (my current theta setup) possible?

Not with the the current processor. What are you doing right now? Two Six shooters? You can do lossless with an external signal processor like, the Circle Surround or Parasound EX expander if you can still find one. As you likely remember those were invented when pre-pros which were only 5.1 need ot add the rear EX channel when dolby ex came to market. You can use one to get an extra channel that is then output to one or two rear speakers. It is not as good as DD PLIIx but still good.

If bluray/DVD via hdmi into a CBIII is inferior to, say, an Oppo SE into an SS, the update is a failure, particularly with either of the upper end DACs. If two channel music out of the SE via analog is better than coax into the SupII or Extreme, ditto.


2 channel performance over S/DIF using an Xtreme card relative to an Oppo SE obviously has nothing to do with whether or not HDMI is a failure because you don't need HDMI to make this comparison.

For what it is worth, here is my take on the 2 channel question. I compared the Sony XA5400ES 2 channel through the six shooter with a Compli S/PDIF through the Xtreme cards. The Xtreme cards won. According to Kal Rubinson is his latest column, the Sony is the price performance category leader for 2-channel analog, at least at par with the Oppo SE. I provisionaly conclude the Xtreme cards probably still beat the Oppe SE. Norm will soon provide an addition datapoint by comparing an Oppo SE Nuforce over SS with a digital transport over Xtreme cards, we'll see.

To beat the CBIII + Xtreme card and a decent digital transport on two channel, you probably need to spend a few grand (according to Steve, the PWT + PWD combo will do the trick). Anyone that has found a sub 2K CD player that sounds better analog through the SS than digital through the Xtreme cards please speak up!

In economic terms, on the basis of 2 channel performance, at current street prices the CBIII + Xtreme card (currently one listed on A'gon for $4000), is still a competitive DAC + Preamp. For full retail it has been left in the dust by technological progress and better 2 channel can be had for less than $5,000.

Multi channel performance and whether HDMI will be a failure or not is a different discussion altogether.

Then all surround processors are failures it that is the standard. The Six Shooter and a good transport is better than any I have heard. It's always been that way. Analog pre-amp and dedicated player beat a surround processor. Does not matter it it's the one Theta makes or some other company's. Expecting Theta's upgrade to do this would be expecting Theta to redefine the last 10 or 15 years of the way surround processors have fared against good analog pre-amps.

Ironically, the bar has been set higher for Theta than others SSP manufacturers to not be a failure in terms of SQ.

First, since a six shooter improves SQ compared to an analog bypass build in other SSP's (say classe or anthem), Theta's HDMI implementation has to be better than that of others to be at par with their analog option.

Second, a major reason many people like the HDMI option on their high end processor is because it gives access to room correction. Since Theta won't have this, their HDMI implementation has to be a better than say Classe, Halcro, Anthem and Meridan to offset the "room correction deficit", purely on the merits of sound quality of the Theta.

As a result, Theta will have to pull a very big HDMI rabbit out of the hat to be a success in terms of sound quality. They may still pull this off, but especially considering they appear not to be implementing ARC or a (HATS or DenonLink type) proprietary equivalent to deal with Jitter issues, this would go down as one of the more significant achievements in audio engineering of the decade.

Then all surround processors are failures it that is the standard. The Six Shooter and a good transport is better than any I have heard. It's always been that way. Analog pre-amp and dedicated player beat a surround processor. Does not matter it it's the one Theta makes or some other company's. Expecting Theta's upgrade to do this would be expecting Theta to redefine the last 10 or 15 years of the way surround processors have fared against good analog pre-amps.

I disagree. I haven't heard a $1300 CD player through a good, similarly priced preamp or the SS that sounds better than 2ch via the Extreme cards. I confused the issue by tying this to the HDMI upgrade, though Theta should, at a minimum, handle HDMI in a way the music sounds as good over it as optical or coax. Part of the raison d'etre of the upper end processors is the notion of one box; perhaps not state of the art 2 ch., but close.

To beat the CBIII + Xtreme card and a decent digital transport on two channel, you probably need to spend a few grand (according to Steve, the PWT + PWD combo will do the trick). Anyone that has found a sub 2K CD player that sounds better analog through the SS than digital through the Xtreme cards please speak up!

In economic terms, on the basis of 2 channel performance, at current street prices the CBIII + Xtreme card (currently one listed on A'gon for $4000), is still a competitive DAC + Preamp. For full retail it has been left in the dust by technological progress and better 2 channel can be had for less than $5,000.

Yep, and agreed, though I think 'left in the dust' is too strong.

An aside: It's not clear to me that Theta does any special processing of movie codecs as does Lexicon, or Meridian who writes their own code. That means that SQ gains vs. other processors falls to (perhaps) better DACs/analog output sections, better volume circuitry, and more comprehensive xover options. For me though, soundtracks are a bit of a leveler anyway -- they are highly processed and sound little better on a good mid-priced processor (ADA forex.) vs. a high end processor.

Not with the the current processor. What are you doing right now? Two Six shooters? You can do lossless with an external signal processor like, the Circle Surround or Parasound EX expander if you can still find one. As you likely remember those were invented when pre-pros which were only 5.1 need ot add the rear EX channel when dolby ex came to market. You can use one to get an extra channel that is then output to one or two rear speakers. It is not as good as DD PLIIx but still good.

Actually I was talking about the new Audio Processors

I disagree. I haven't heard a $1300 CD player through a good, similarly priced preamp or the SS that sounds better than 2ch via the Extreme cards. I confused the issue by tying this to the HDMI upgrade, though Theta should, at a minimum, handle HDMI in a way the music sounds as good over it as optical or coax. Part of the raison d'etre of the upper end processors is the notion of one box; perhaps not state of the art 2 ch., but close.



Yep, and agreed, though I think 'left in the dust' is too strong.

An aside: It's not clear to me that Theta does any special processing of movie codecs as does Lexicon, or Meridian who writes their own code. That means that SQ gains vs. other processors falls to (perhaps) better DACs/analog output sections, better volume circuitry, and more comprehensive xover options. For me though, soundtracks are a bit of a leveler anyway -- they are highly processed and sound little better on a good mid-priced processor (ADA forex.) vs. a high end processor.

Left in the dust may be a too strong considering that no one would spend 15,000 on a CBIII with one XTreme card to use it for 2 channel only. In fact, I was shocked at how good the Xtreme cards are, and if only Theta can find a way to feed them clean high rez audio bits over HDMI they may yet deliver a the best HDMI SSP on the market.

However, if the PWT + PWD beats the 13,500 Gen Viii DAC as some people on this forum suggest, then Theta has indeed been left in the dust by technological progress (at MSRP that is!). However, at the 30%-40% of MSRP that Theta gear is currently selling for I think it is excellent value and a used Six Shooter for $1,000 is an absolute killer deal, considering what the SS does to sound quality.

Left in the dust may be a too strong considering that no one would spend 15,000 on a CBIII with one XTreme card to use it for 2 channel only. In fact, I was shocked at how good the Xtreme cards are, and if only Theta can find a way to feed them clean high rez audio bits over HDMI they may yet deliver a the best HDMI SSP on the market.

However, if the PWT + PWD beats the 13,500 Gen Viii DAC as some people on this forum suggest, then Theta has indeed been left in the dust by technological progress (at MSRP that is!). However, at the 30%-40% of MSRP that Theta gear is currently selling for I think it is excellent value and a used Six Shooter for $1,000 is an absolute killer deal, considering what the SS does to sound quality.

I was surprised too by how good the Extreme DACs are which is why I sold my Meridian G68 processor. I like the Theta via Extremes much better for music. It's the only reason I've hung around so long for the update.

Doesn't seem like Theta has the engineering horsepower at moment to stay current on the digital front, but I haven't heard the new Gen VIII.

That's a nice rig. Your original post cited the BD-83 not the SE. The Std unit would not touch the old Compli. I do not doubt your observations on the SE however as I have not had occasion to listen to it yet. I was supposed to have a NuForce SE in house to test on Thursday, but I had to cancel to go to Mammoth. We're doing it in 2 weeks instead. We should have the Compli Blu, as well as a Denon DVD-5910 all disc player (no BD) and an Elite BDP-09FD. I shall post. Regards, Norm

Norm, have you had a chance to do some comparisons yet? Reason I'm asking is I am consolidating source components and sold my Compli and my Sony XA5400. I now want to buy a new Universal player and then sell my Pioneer BDP-09, so I'd be down to a single player.

If you are finding the Oppo NUforce is as good as the Pioneer 09 for Blu Ray audio (concert discs), and the Theta Compli for MC SACD I would consider getting it. If it is not, I would consider getting the Marantz UD9004 instead. 2 channel is not a factor, because I am planning to heed your advise and get the PS Audio Music server once they release the bridge and lens. Want to pull the trigger on a universal this week though.

Norm, have you had a chance to do some comparisons yet? Reason I'm asking is I am consolidating source components and sold my Compli and my Sony XA5400. I now want to buy a new Universal player and then sell my Pioneer BDP-09, so I'd be down to a single player.

If you are finding the Oppo NUforce is as good as the Pioneer 09 for Blu Ray audio (concert discs), and the Theta Compli for MC SACD I would consider getting it. If it is not, I would consider getting the Marantz UD9004 instead. 2 channel is not a factor, because I am planning to heed your advise and get the PS Audio Music server once they release the bridge and lens. Want to pull the trigger on a universal this week though.


Funny that you should mention the Marantz UD9004. When I auditioned the Classe SSP-800 it had the Marantz being used as the source unit. I ended up buying the SSP-800! Yes the Classe does sound pretty darn good in 2 channel performance. It's the best sounding processor I've owned and this is my third one after owning B&K and Denon! It's the first time that a pre/pro had me tapping my foot when I listen to music. I am a former Theta owner Pro Basic IIIa and Theta Pearl. I always loved the sound they produced. I just hope that Theta can remain solvent long enough to make a comeback? I just have never agreed on the price they charge for the Extreme cards! I understand it's market driven but come on with the economy struggling still.:rolleyes:

Funny that you should mention the Marantz UD9004. When I auditioned the Classe SSP-800 it had the Marantz being used as the source unit. I ended up buying the SSP-800! Yes the Classe does sound pretty darn good in 2 channel performance. It's the best sounding processor I've owned and this is my third one after owning B&K and Denon! It's the first time that a pre/pro had me tapping my foot when I listen to music. I am a former Theta owner Pro Basic IIIa and Theta Pearl. I always loved the sound they produced. I just hope that Theta can remain solvent long enough to make a comeback? I just have never agreed on the price they charge for the Extreme cards! I understand it's market driven but come on with the economy struggling still.:rolleyes:

In your SSP-800 audition I presume you used the Marantz as a digital HDMI transport then, which seems a bit of overkill. Considering it appears the Marantz has a full blown DSP build in with bass management flexibility close to equal to the CBIII, you need to use its analog outputs to do it justice. I am heavily leaning towards getting a UD9004 and use it with the six shooter. I would still keep my CBIII HDMI upgradeable but only do the upgrade if the general consensus is it sounds better than the UD9004 + SS combo. If it does not I'll sell my Xtreme cards.

Need the post processing of a surround processor to expand 5.1 to 7.1. I have done it the analog route with a Circle Surround EX expander to get to 6.1 but too much hassle. If there was a great blu-ray player that could expand 5.1 to 7.1 then I would not need the upgrade. I saw something about Oppo doing pro-logic but will it expand a 5.1 track to 7.1?

I am in the final due diligence phase of getting an UD9004 and one current user is telling me the Maratnz will do this type of post processing for you (it also has the bass management flexibility of the CBIII - it has basically build in a full blown SSP into the player). For your 7.1 application and commitment to six shooters this sounds like a cheaper and better option than upgrading to HDMI. Additional advantage is it actully ship. You would need to verify with Marantz you can actualy do this though.

I still want the Theta upgrade. I find for movies the Casablanca is more dynamic than the Six Shooter? The Six Shooter is not a passive preamplifier but it damn sure sounds like one. I find passives clean and transparent but lacking some in dynamics. I use the Six shooter with a good player for concert blu-ray and SACD.

I still want the Theta upgrade. I find for movies the Casablanca is more dynamic than the Six Shooter? The Six Shooter is not a passive preamplifier but it damn sure sounds like one. I find passives clean and transparent but lacking some in dynamics. I use the Six shooter with a good player for concert blu-ray and SACD.

Depressingly, should I find the same (i.e. analog route preference for some content/formats and digital route for others), I would also consider keeping the Marantz, Six Shooter, Xtreme cards and do the upgrade. The obsessive compulsive nature of this hobby is certainly not cheap..... What SACD and blu-ray player are you using if I may ask?

Marantz SA7s1 for audio. My theater gear is in storage. Just kept out enough for two channel. Job relocation. Sold most of my video stuff.

So does even one person in the whole world, other than Theta, have their new Blu Ray player yet? Mark (Haflich)? VGI (Craig)? Tyree (Norm)?

So does even one person in the whole world, other than Theta, have their new Blu Ray player yet? Mark (Haflich)? VGI (Craig)? Tyree (Norm)?

Yes. Says Oppo on it. :D

I was surprised too by how good the Extreme DACs are which is why I sold my Meridian G68 processor. I like the Theta via Extremes much better for music. It's the only reason I've hung around so long for the update.

Meridian's stuff seems to be about on par with the Superior II dacs but not the Xtremes.

So does even one person in the whole world, other than Theta, have their new Blu Ray player yet? Mark (Haflich)? VGI (Craig)? Tyree (Norm)?

Or any of the promised stuff, Dreadnaught III amp anyone?

Meridian's stuff seems to be about on par with the Superior II dacs but not the Xtremes.

Which I why I'm surprised/puzzled you qualified CD playback over Xtreme cards compared to your Marantz SA7S1 over six shooter as "garbage". For me the Xtreme give me the best CD playback I've ever had, but then I never owned a $7K CD player. I will soon be able to tell myself as I have a ud9004 arriving next week. This of course assumes the ud9004 is close enough to the SA7S1(as claimed by anyone involved in selling ud9004's but which has not been confirmed in independent A/B listening test).

In few days my Compli Blu will arrive. I already have the Oppo 83 SE with HD-SDI. I have two systems, but only one BD player. Earlier I cancelled my order of the Blu, but my dealer gave me a better offer and now because I realize I need two BD players I am thinking I will give it a try. I will compare the Blu against the Oppo for both analog vs digital audio as well as video, hdmi vs hdmi and hd-sdi vs hdmi. (Unfortunately Theta does not provide hd-sdi).

In few days my Compli Blu will arrive. I already have the Oppo 83 SE with HD-SDI. I have two systems, but only one BD player. Earlier I cancelled my order of the Blu, but my dealer gave me a better offer and now because I realize I need two BD players I am thinking I will give it a try. I will compare the Blu against the Oppo for both analog vs digital audio as well as video, hdmi vs hdmi and hd-sdi vs hdmi. (Unfortunately Theta does not provide hd-sdi).
Who did your SDI on the SE? Since the Video Circuitry is the same they should be able to provide SDI on the Theta. Norm

True. It was JVB Digital who did SDI on my Oppo.

True. It was JVB Digital who did SDI on my Oppo.

No doubt they could do the Theta as well.

So does even one person in the whole world, other than Theta, have their new Blu Ray player yet? Mark (Haflich)? VGI (Craig)? Tyree (Norm)?
Steve, The first run was Silver. We have a Black on order which should be this week. Norm

Finally been able to do a test between the Oppo 83 SE with HD-SDI and the Theta Compli Blu. I have not used any measurements in the test, so it is not an attemt to be scientific in any ways, just my opinions and my findings using my own eyes and ears. I am not considering the differences in price, this small test is just about performance.

Test with both units performed in my no. 1 system and with exact same cables. All video cables are Nordost silverscreen. Audio going through a Cary Cinema 11a to amps. Video going through a Crystalio II VPS-3800 processor and to a Sony VW100 projector which has a new bulb. The units are set to run Source Direct, dvd is sent as 480i, and BD as 1080i or 1080p. Both units are also running the same firmware from Oppo, from Dec 24 last year.

So how does the Compli Blu, brand new out of the box, perform against the Oppo 83 SE which already has run about 100-150 hrs? Very well I have to say.

Test #1: Blu-Ray movie
Because of a bug with HD-SDI in the current Oppo firmware I am not able to watch Blu-Ray through HD-SDI, only HDMI. So I compared apples to apples, HDMI out from the Oppo 83 SE and HDMI out from the Compli Blu.

-Results for video:
The Compli Blu has lower noise and more vivid and lifelike colors. It is not a big difference, but noticeable. I especially like the colors the Compli Blu. It looks like it has more density. It is also sharper, and very very close to HD-SDI from the Oppo as I can remember it. Although I belive HD-SDI out from the Oppo will be a bit sharper, I think I would prefer the Compli Blu because of the nice colors.

-Results for audio:
Running digital audio out, there were big differences. The Compli Blu is far ahead.

=>Compli Blu won for both audio and video.


Test #2: DVD movie
Now compared both with HDMI and SDI out from the Oppo 83 SE and HDMI out from the Compli Blu.

-Results for video:
HDMI out from the Oppo loses. Then it is a very close race between SDI out from the Oppo and HDMI on the Compli. Same as with Blu-Ray I still prefer the colors the Compli produces, but now I can see that the Oppo with SDI really has an advantage when it comes to sharpness. SDI really shines here, so I think I will say that the overall picture quality from the Oppo with SDI is the best. But it amazes me that the Compli Blu without SDI is so close. Congrats to Theta!

-Results for audio:
Sames as with Blu-Ray. Running digital audio out, there were big differences. The Compli Blu is far ahead.

=>Compli Blu won for audio, and the Oppo with a small margin on video, but only when using the SDI output.


Test #3: SACD
I had the same results with 2ch SACDs and multich SACDs so I will not comment on each.

Now compared both with digital out and analog out for both units. Digital sent as PCM over HDMI up to 96 kHz. Still same cables.

-Results for analog output:
The Oppo 83 SE was clearly the winner here. Much more air around voices and instruments, greater depth and dynamics. The Compli Blu sounded less resolved and not as musical, but don´t misunderstand. The Compli Blu still sounds very good throgh the analog outputs. But also, I believe the Compli is built upon the standard Oppo and not the SE version so it was not surprising that I got these results. It should also be considered that the Compli Blu is brand new, so I guess it will improve quite a lot after some burn-in.

-Results for digital output:
Digital out from the Compli is a little bit better than from the Oppo. I don´t know why, but of some reason I think I could here bigger differences with movies where the Compli Blu was much better.

Going digital from my Compli Blu through the Cinema 11a also is a little bit better than analog from the Oppo SE.

=>Compli Blu won for audio when running digital out, but that is just because the DACs in the Cary Cinema 11a is up to the task. With a lesser Surround processor I guess running analog out from the Oppo SE would be hard to beat.

Preferred order
1. Compli Blu digital to the Cinema 11a
2. Oppo SE analog to the Cinema 11a
3. Oppo SE digital to the Cinema 11a
4. Compli Blu analog to the Cinema 11a

2 & 3 are hard to separate, sound very like on most recordings, also 1 & 2 are pretty close.


Final "conclusion":
Compli Blu is the winner if cost is not an issue. Or if you have a high end audio and video system. The Oppo 83 SE is still a very good choice and gives better value for the money. The Compli stays in my system #1. The Oppo is sent to system #2 !

Oh boy :).

By chance, does your processor display the input *video* format it is receiving (e.g. RGB/ YUV, 4:2:2, 4:2:0, etc)? If so, can you display that in the above scenarios and report back what it says?

-Results for video:
The Compli Blu has lower noise and more vivid and lifelike colors. It is not a big difference, but noticeable. I especially like the colors the Compli Blu. It looks like it has more density. It is also sharper, and very very close to HD-SDI from the Oppo as I can remember it. Although I belive HD-SDI out from the Oppo will be a bit sharper, I think I would prefer the Compli Blu because of the nice colors.

Do you know what changes Theta has done to achieve lower noise and more vivid and life-like colors over Oppo?

Do you know what changes Theta has done to achieve lower noise and more vivid and life-like colors over Oppo?

Doug, that was pretty quick!!!@@@

Concern here is that the two players videowise may require a bit different calibration for the monitor, so perceived video differences may not be real.


Buts its also possible that Theta's mods especially power supply to give discernable subjective improvements whether audio or video.
Will be interesting as more folks report.

Armando, how did you get ahold of one so quick in Norway. No one here in the U.S. has given any subjective performance review so far.

Hey Steve,

This is great news about the Compli Blu.. Reich told me this thing was going to kick some butt due to the separate power supplies and he did deliver.

I have a bunch out there delivered and running but have only heard back from a few guys.

One told me last week that it totally kicks the crap out of his Pioneer BDP09 which is great news..

Another guy ordered a second in Black for the other room in the house which certainly says he liked the first.. Still a bunch on back order but flowing at a even rate of speed now and the 6 weeks is like 1-2 weeks now..

The trade in/special they are running i thought was clever and is helping people get into a player at this price point for not much more than a Pioneer and for a hand built player from Southern Calif.. Thats Awesome..

We are happy and now if we can get HDMI out in the next few months, the world will be a better place :)

Trying to work out some really cool pricing on the HDMI upgrades and how this is going to work..

I came up with some very cool concepts that the factory is looking at..

Who knows what the future might bring :)

Craig
Theatermax LLC

Do you know what changes Theta has done to achieve lower noise and more vivid and life-like colors over Oppo?

You should look at tyree91´s post #83 at page 3 for this thread. It has a nice list of what Theta has done with the Oppo.
I believe it is the sum of all that which contributes to the high quality video output from the Compli Blu.

Armando, how did you get ahold of one so quick in Norway. No one here in the U.S. has given any subjective performance review so far.

I believe I got hold of one because Theta sent one to my dealer;)
And maybe the reason for that is because of the HUGE market over here;);)
Seriously, I don´t know.

BTW, my unit is in black. With the Silver Theta Logo against the black face plate it really looks stunning!

Oh boy :).

By chance, does your processor display the input *video* format it is receiving (e.g. RGB/ YUV, 4:2:2, 4:2:0, etc)? If so, can you display that in the above scenarios and report back what it says?
Amir, I believe I set both the Oppo and Compli Blu to send 4:2:2, but will report back. (Not at home at the moment)

-Results for audio:
Running digital audio out, there were big differences. The Compli Blu is far ahead.

=>Compli Blu won for both audio and video.


-Results for audio:
Sames as with Blu-Ray. Running digital audio out, there were big differences. The Compli Blu is far ahead.

Preferred order
1. Compli Blu digital to the Cinema 11a
2. Oppo SE analog to the Cinema 11a
3. Oppo SE digital to the Cinema 11a
4. Compli Blu analog to the Cinema 11a

2 & 3 are hard to separate, sound very like on most recordings, also 1 & 2 are pretty close.

!

Armand, nice job. Finally something new to report from the Theta front.

First, can you clarify the statements above? Initially, you say that that the Compli beats the SE hands down on digital out ("far ahead"). But then in your finally summary say the difference between (1) and (2) are pretty close and (2) and (3) are also close, which suggest (1) and (3) are not that far apart. I cannot reconcile these two statements.

Second, if indeed the Compli is a superior digital HDMI transport (which appears to be the bottome line of your assessment), this would be a brilliant piece of Theta engineering, since I have not read a single review of any piece of equipment that sounded any better than a standard BD-83 over HDMI out, regardless of price. How Theta manages to squeeze such better bits out of the player without actualy changing any of the digital circuitry or clock is beyond me but thenagain I'm not an engineer. It also bodes well for the upcoming Ayre, who is actually changing the guts of the digital audio output (including separate clock, separate HDMI output), so this promises to be an even better digital transport. It would also be very interesting to do the same comparison (Oppo / Compli), into the HD621 (Kal, any interest?), to see if the differences are still there with the HD621, which is a very different architecture for processing the HDMI signal than the Cinema 11a.

Armand, nice job. Finally something new to report from the Theta front.

First, can you clarify the statements above? Initially, you say that that the Compli beats the SE hands down on digital out ("far ahead"). But then in your finally summary say the difference between (1) and (2) are pretty close and (2) and (3) are also close, which suggest (1) and (3) are not that far apart. I cannot reconcile these two statements.


Edorr, thanks.
When I said that (1) and (2) and also (2) and (3) are pretty close that is with SACD.

You have edited my review in your quote so the first part is not for SACD, but for video. So you have interpreted a little wrong assuming that I experienced the same differences with movies and with SACD. According to my findings there were less differences with SACD.

As I said under the SACD part "Digital out from the Compli is a little bit better than from the Oppo. I don´t know why, but of some reason I think I could here bigger differences with movies where the Compli Blu was much better."



Second, if indeed the Compli is a superior digital HDMI transport (which appears to be the bottome line of your assessment), this would be a brilliant piece of Theta engineering, since I have not read a single review of any piece of equipment that sounded any better than a standard BD-83 over HDMI out, regardless of price. How Theta manages to squeeze such better bits out of the player without actualy changing any of the digital circuitry or clock is beyond me but thenagain I'm not an engineer. It also bodes well for the upcoming Ayre, who is actually changing the guts of the digital audio output (including separate clock, separate HDMI output), so this promises to be an even better digital transport.

Yes, I agree. I have found the Compli to be a superb transport. And yes, I guess the Ayre will not be bad either. I have read some of C.Hansens comments in the DX-5 thread and it seems that it will perform very well also from the analog outputs.

Edorr, thanks.
When I said that (1) and (2) and also (2) and (3) are pretty close that is with SACD.

You have edited my review in your quote so the first part is not for SACD, but for video. So you have interpreted a little wrong assuming that I experienced the same differences with movies and with SACD. According to my findings there were less differences with SACD.

As I said under the SACD part "Digital out from the Compli is a little bit better than from the Oppo. I don´t know why, but of some reason I think I could here bigger differences with movies where the Compli Blu was much better."


Now it makes sense. Your preference ranking was only pertaining to SACD. Thanks for clarifying.

Yes, the preference ranking was for SACD. With movies i would have (2) and (3) to change positions.

Also, one of the reasons why the Compli Blu was more ahead of the Oppo with movies could be because movie sound was sent as bitstream. SACDs were sent as PCM. So in the process og converting DSD to PCM the Compli maybe loses some og it's advantages over the Oppo. This is just my theory, I really don't know. I guess the only way to find out is to connect the players to a DSD capable processor.

Yes!
Also, one of the reasons why the Compli Blu was more ahead of the Oppo with movies could be because movie sound was sent as bitstream. SACDs were sent as PCM. So in the process og converting DSD to PCM the Compli maybe loses some og it's advantages over the Oppo. This is just my theory, I really don't know. I guess the only way to find out is to connect the players to a DSD capable processor.

It is a reasonable theory. My first working assumption is that with top notch gear SACD will always sound better converted DSD direct in the player into a very good (multi-channel or 2 channel) analog preamp, then PCM over HDMI into a SSP. The reason your Compli HDMI (narrowly) beats out the SE analog is most likely a result of the analog section of your Cinema11. If you ran the SE through a Ref3 with HT bypass I'm pretty sure the SE would win hands down.

My second working assumption was that for Blu Ray Audio, a well implemented HDMI route through a SSP would beat the analog path, which your findings seems to confirm.

However, my third working assumption was that all you would ever need as an HDMI transport is an Oppo DB-83 because nothing is going to sound any better (except may be the Ayre which rebuilds the diigtal section), and all sound quality is a function of the quality of the SSP. This assumption appears to now have to go out the door based on your findings UNLESS the difference between the Compli and SE dissapear again when using an HD621.

Which I why I'm surprised/puzzled you qualified CD playback over Xtreme cards compared to your Marantz SA7S1 over six shooter as "garbage". For me the Xtreme give me the best CD playback I've ever had, but then I never owned a $7K CD player.

IMO, compared to the Marantz SA-7 the Xtremes should not even be discussed in the same thread. I have not heard the univeral player. It's cheaper than the two channel player so it would be a bargain if the performance is equal. The Xtremes are great for a surround processor. As you may surmise, I do not think that much of surround processors for music.

However, my third working assumption was that all you would ever need as an HDMI transport is an Oppo DB-83 because nothing is going to sound any better (except may be the Ayre which rebuilds the diigtal section), and all sound quality is a function of the quality of the SSP. This assumption appears to now have to go out the door based on your findings UNLESS the difference between the Compli and SE dissapear again when using an HD621.

As a transport I believe the Compli always will be better than the Oppo no matter what surround box you place in the other end of the HDMI cable. This because of the improvements Theta have done, especially regarding Power Supply and the extra damping of the drawer.

As a transport I believe the Compli always will be better than the Oppo no matter what surround box you place in the other end of the HDMI cable. This because of the improvements Theta have done, especially regarding Power Supply and the extra damping of the drawer.

Thanks for the through comments. I think Theta may have a winner here. I believe the better power supply would reduce jitter. With most Casablanca owners looking for a good transport to use with the HDMI upgrade, this player seems exactly suited for that.

I will soon be able to tell myself as I have a ud9004 arriving next week.

When it arrives, I would suggest you all set the levels for the Six Shooter to maximum and then do the final adjustments to channel levels in the Marantz. I find the Six Shooter is more dynamic with movies when you take this approach. I find the Casablanca to do better with movies, as for dynamics, but it could have been the Toshiba HD combination. Still, Theta does some processing with the Center Spread in the Casablanca that allows the center to better blend with the L/R. I ran a full range identical speaker for my center with my last speakers so it was not as big of a factor. My decision as to what I will do with my next set-up has not been made as there is no current matching center for my speakers. Resale of the single speaker, that I used for a center, in my last set-up was dismal.

When it arrives, I would suggest you all set the levels for the Six Shooter to maximum and then do the final adjustments to channel levels in the Marantz. I find the Six Shooter is more dynamic with movies when you take this approach. I find the Casablanca to do better with movies, as for dynamics, but it could have been the Toshiba HD combination. Still, Theta does some processing with the Center Spread in the Casablanca that allows the center to better blend with the L/R. I ran a full range identical speaker for my center with my last speakers so it was not as big of a factor. My decision as to what I will do with my next set-up has not been made as there is no current matching center for my speakers. Resale of the single speaker, that I used for a center, in my last set-up was dismal.

I would be hope the multi-channel analog outs of the Marantz are in in an entirely different league than your Toshiba, so I would expect the six shooter route to beat digital over the CBIII hands down. If it does not, I have probably bet on the wrong (analog) horse, and should have gotten the new Compli and use it as a digital transport into the CBIII/HDMI instead. We'll see. I'll try your suggestion to trim channels in the Marantz.

I would be hope the multi-channel analog outs of the Marantz are in in an entirely different league than your Toshiba, so I would expect the six shooter route to beat digital over the CBIII hands down. If it does not, I have probably bet on the wrong (analog) horse, and should have gotten the new Compli and use it as a digital transport into the CBIII/HDMI instead. We'll see. I'll try your suggestion to trim channels in the Marantz.
Why do you assume the Toshiba didn't sound better with high-rez tracks? That was not the issue. The Six Shooter is not perfect. It does not sound as dynamic with movies as the Casablanca. That was the issue. I need the dynamics more for movies. The fidelity more for music. There just aren't that many explosions in the music that I like:). The Six Shooter sounds like a passive. There is not just one answer that suits everyone. Use what you like. I am just expressing my personal preferences and subjective impressions. Whether you find the same is relevant to YOU.

Update for my original review regarding SACD playback:

In the beginning I preferred HDMI to the Cary but as the Compli Blu now is fully broken-in I prefer analog. Running analog from the Compli through the analog bypass input on the Cary has slightly less noise and the music is a little more vivid and life-like. But these differences are very small. I have a very transparent and dynamic system so I think the differences are maybe not possible to find in another less resolving system.

For movies I still prefer to run digital from the Compli Blu to my SSP.

Back from Arkansas where I was designing and pre-wiring a new home. The Compli Blu now has about 350 hrs on it. This thing has surprised me.
First understand that I am a dealer for the following BD players: LG, Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer, JVC, Sharp, Pioneer Elite, Denon, Marantz, & Oppo so with the current state of affairs Theta has certainly been on a back burner. I've installed a lot of BD players, and this will be the
first Theta. We are running an Elite BDP-09FD in our reference system at this time, and have been very pleased with it. There have been no
problems, and it bested an Oppo BDP-83 in an earlier shootout (of course it costs 4+ times more than the Oppo.) I've installed Five Oppo SE's,
but didn't have them long enough to put them in the reference system so I can't say much abouth the SE. Now to the Compli Blu:
Out of the box it sounded terrible, strident, thin, flat, no air. I put in a MC SACD, set it to Repeat, and went on to Arkansas with it running.
After I returned I changed the disc every day, Classical Symphony one day, Hard Rock the next, and so on for 6 days, 24 hours a day. At this point things had greatly improved. The unit had fleshed out in the low & mid bass, a sense of air and dimension appeared, and the stridency was gone replaced by just a bit of top end edge. I put in some DVD-As on repeat for 4 days, and went back to life. Now at 250 or so hours we got down to some serious evaluation. The following descriptions apply to the Analogue outs to a Theta Six-Shooter playing SACD (both Stereo & MC,) DVD-A, and Redbook CDs: First it was extremely Dynamic. It seemed to be very fast in that it had a very quick, clear leading edge on transient attacks. It was very airy and had a real nice three dimensional image. FR was sweet on top and nice natural mids with a tight fast bottom end with no wooliness. It was far more musical, sweeter, and dynamic than the BD-83, which I find less than ideal with its Analogue outs. It was also more musical and Dynamic than the old Compli and our Denon DVD-5910CI Universal Player.
On BDs the Theta bested the Oppo in every way in audio, which it should for the difference in $$$$. Compared to the Elite 09FD the Compli Blu was more dynamic, open and airy. The Pioneer is very sweet and musical, but lacks the Dynamics and Transient response of the of the more lively Compli Blu. It also doesn't have the depth of image compared to the Theta. This was shown most succinctly on the magnificent two episode import version of John Woo's "Red Cliff." It is a beautiful pair of films with great acting, history, sets, cinematography, and sound. The battle scenes are among the best I've ever seen on film. The Compli Blu rendered this a fabulous Cinematic Experience, one of the best I've ever enjoyed in my theater. The sound was ultra dynamic and drew the viewer into the story more than I'm used to, edge of your seat stuff. The sound field was completely enveloping, and the bottom end was crushing without beeing bloated. Simply amazing stuff. It just blew me away.
The picture seemed better than I remembered from the Oppo. More three dimensional with better color saturation, and less artifacts, but this is more from the fact that it had slightly more of these qualities than the Elite 09FD which had bettered the Oppo head to head by a small margin (via HDMI directly into a JVC-HD750.) The moveable sub-titles allowed for perfect placement with our Panamorph 240:1 system, somthing the Elite cannot do.
Sadly I did not get to evaluate the Theta as an HDMI Audio Transport, lacking an HDMI SSP in our theater. That will have to wait for another day.
It would seem that Dave Reich's work on the new Power Supply, along with the reworked and much more rigid Transport Mechanism has done wonders for the Compli Blu compared to its OEM Cousin. It would seem that this has improved clock performance, thus reducing jitter and allowing for more clarity and dynamics. I would favor it over the Elite 09FD as well, and also the big Denon. As for the Marantz UD-9004 I can't comment not having heard or seen it in action except at RMAF in an unfamiliar system. The only negative I found was that the Power LED was a damn light cannon in the room which lit up a whole wall across from the gear. It would require a cover if it's in the room.
This is definitly not simply a re-badged Oppo like the Lexicon, but a new High End entry into the BD Player wars that is worth an audition. I really didn't expect this level of performance from this unit. A pleasant surprise, and a Universal to boot. Regards, Norm

Norm:

Thanks for taking the time to post your observations. I assume, for video, you were using the VP capabilities internal to the CompliBlu - as opposed to in the JVC or an external VP?

To your knowledge, is this unit generally available? There seem to be so few of them in the hands of consumers that I start to wonder if it is a special order/make-to-order unit?

Has anyone had an opportunity to evaluate this piece as a digitial transport - do the modifications listed in post #83 on page 3 of this thread, for example, make a difference for digital performance? I currently use a regular Oppo BDP83 for SACD, both flavors of DVD, and BD - CD is played on my Meridian 800 - but I'd love to have a more robust, better looking unit (that doesn't down-rez SACD). Unfortunately I don't know anyone locally who has one to borrow .... I suppose if this piece were $1,500 it'd be a no brainer, I'd just get one myself - not quite so at $3K.

Simon

Norm:

Thanks for taking the time to post your observations. I assume, for video, you were using the VP capabilities internal to the CompliBlu - as opposed to in the JVC or an external VP?

To your knowledge, is this unit generally available? There seem to be so few of them in the hands of consumers that I start to wonder if it is a special order/make-to-order unit?

Has anyone had an opportunity to evaluate this piece as a digitial transport - do the modifications listed in post #83 on page 3 of this thread, for example, make a difference for digital performance? I currently use a regular Oppo BDP83 for SACD, both flavors of DVD, and BD - CD is played on my Meridian 800 - but I'd love to have a more robust, better looking unit (that doesn't down-rez SACD). Unfortunately I don't know anyone locally who has one to borrow .... I suppose if this piece were $1,500 it'd be a no brainer, I'd just get one myself - not quite so at $3K.

Simon
Simon, I know there was a delay in getting faceplates from their vendor so there were only rack mount units available for some time. It was, in fact, an RM unit for our customer which we had for evaluation. Had he not been in Europe on Concert Location we would not have had the opportunity to break in his unit and evaluate it so completly on our home system.
The firmware is identical to the Oppo so it will not output DSD from SACDs, only PCM, just as the Oppo. It also only has the single X-over point and the inability to have the Center or Surround Channels have a larger delay than the Mains. Of course if used as an HDMI Transport these aren't important. I would have to think that the more beefed up , stable power supply would reduce jitter and make this unit an excellent source for HDMI output. This assumption is backed up by the improvements I heard from the analogue outputs. Regards, Norm

I would have to think that the more beefed up , stable power supply would reduce jitter and make this unit an excellent source for HDMI output. This assumption is backed up by the improvements I heard from the analogue outputs. Regards, Norm

My experience with the Marantz UD9004, used as a HDMI transport for video only (using analog out for audio) vs my Oppo BDP-83 (now sold)
surprised me in that the Marantz picture was clearly more naturally sharper and 3D with better black level than that of the Oppo. Previously, the Oppo had beat both a Panasonic BD30 and BD35, which had the same picture quality. Based on this, I would expect the Theta Compli Blu, as both the Theta dnd Marantz have beefed up power supplies, to provide
better video quality over HDMI than the Oppo at least in top notch big screen projector theaters.

Or you could try the Oppo BDP-83SE ($899) or NuForce BDP-83SE ($1299), both of which have "beefed-up" power supplies, and substantially better analog output sections than the Compli-Blu for you Six Shooter fans, at one-third to one-half the cost of Theta's offering. Granted, you won't get a heavy anodized Theta faceplate.

They don't have "Beefed Up" PSs, the Sabre DACs have different PS requirements so it was re-designed to be compatible with the Sabres. The Theta has a PS with an "80 Watt ultra-quiet toroidal transformer, additional, independent 10 Watt transformer for Standby circuit, a total of 7 Amps of power available to supply the unit, four independently rectified and regulated power supplies over 40,000 uF filter capacitance, in small, low ESR multiples."
The Oppos don't have anything approaching this, and remember I think the Oppos are the best value for the $$$ in the marketplace today. Norm

I am looking for a blu ray player too. Can some one please elaborate why would a blu ray transport or player need 7 amps of power supply and how would it improve the performance ? Just trying to understand the facts to make the right decision.

"The Theta has a PS with an "80 Watt ultra-quiet toroidal transformer, additional, independent 10 Watt transformer for Standby circuit, a total of 7 Amps of power available to supply the unit, four independently rectified and regulated power supplies over 40,000 uF filter capacitance, in small, low ESR multiples."
The Oppos don't have anything approaching this"

Why would the Oppos have anything approaching that. They draw 0.29 amps when running and .004 amps in standby.

Shawn

"Can some one please elaborate why would a blu ray transport or player need 7 amps of power supply and how would it improve the performance ?"

It doesn't have a 7 amp power supply in it, it has a 0.6 amp power supply (80 watt transformer).

"a total of 7 Amps of power available to supply the unit"

This can probably be translated into.... ' a 7 amp fuse installed on the unit.'

Shawn

Or you could try the Oppo BDP-83SE ($899) or NuForce BDP-83SE ($1299), both of which have "beefed-up" power supplies, and substantially better analog output sections than the Compli-Blu for you Six Shooter fans, at one-third to one-half the cost of Theta's offering. Granted, you won't get a heavy anodized Theta faceplate.

I don´t know the Nuforce, but the Compli Blu definately sounds better in my system in direct comparison with the Oppo BDP-83SE (The Compli Blu replaced the Oppo 83SE in my main system which was moved over to my secondary system). I have had my Compli Blu for several months now and I am extremely happy with it. Also for movies, especially Blu-Ray, it is just awesome.

It doesn't have a 7 amp power supply in it, it has a 0.6 amp power supply (80 watt transformer).

"a total of 7 Amps of power available to supply the unit"

This can probably be translated into.... ' a 7 amp fuse installed on the unit.'

Shawn
Or that 7 amps is the *output* of the power supply, not input. :)

Or you could try the Oppo BDP-83SE ($899) or NuForce BDP-83SE ($1299), both of which have "beefed-up" power supplies, and substantially better analog output sections than the Compli-Blu for you Six Shooter fans, at one-third to one-half the cost of Theta's offering. Granted, you won't get a heavy anodized Theta faceplate.

I am not sure about the SE and Nuforce, but what is different in the Compli BR is they replaced the switching powersupply with a linear power supply. I'm no electrical engineer, but according to some high end desing luminaries (including Charles Hanson) this reduces noice and is essential to build any true high end piece. We can now start a discussion about the merits of linear power supplies over switching which is a lot more pertinent than Amperage specs. For some points of view on this subjects read the Ayre DX-5 thread. Interestingly I never found out if the Marantz has a linear power supply (the McIntosh universal does).

"I am not sure about the SE and Nuforce, but what is different in the Compli BR is they replaced the switching powersupply with a linear power supply."

Nope, not according to the specs given by Theta.

See how it will accept any voltage from 100-240v.... that is a switching power supply. Not a linear power supply.

See how its power consumption is identical to the factory Oppo? Linear supplies are not as efficient as switching. If they switched to linear it would be using more power even if it was feeding the circuits the same amount of current.

"but according to some high end desing luminaries (including Charles Hanson) this reduces noice and is essential to build any true high end piece."

So then by that 'logic' the Theta isn't a true high end piece.

Shawn

"I am not sure about the SE and Nuforce, but what is different in the Compli BR is they replaced the switching powersupply with a linear power supply."

Nope, not according to the specs given by Theta.

See how it will accept any voltage from 100-240v.... that is a switching power supply. Not a linear power supply.

See how its power consumption is identical to the factory Oppo? Linear supplies are not as efficient as switching. If they switched to linear it would be using more power even if it was feeding the circuits the same amount of current.

"but according to some high end desing luminaries (including Charles Hanson) this reduces noice and is essential to build any true high end piece."

So then by that 'logic' the Theta isn't a true high end piece.

Shawn

Would be interesting to get Theta to make a statement on this. It has been stated elsewhere the Compli BR has a linear powersupply. See for example:

http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2010/theta_rising/

Theta already made a statement on this:

Power Supply ~ 100V – 240V, 50/60Hz AC

Universal voltage input products are using switching supplies, end of story.

With linear supplies they either are fixed at a single voltage input or to change to a different input voltage you have to change taps on a transformer.

Shawn

Theta already made a statement on this:

Power Supply ~ 100V – 240V, 50/60Hz AC

Universal voltage input products are using switching supplies, end of story.

With linear supplies they either are fixed at a single voltage input or to change to a different input voltage you have to change taps on a transformer.

Shawn
From Theta Website:
Custom designed ANALOG POWER SUPPLY, which includes the following:
A.An 80 Watt ultra-quiet toroidal transformer.

B.Additional, independent 10 Watt transformer for Standby circuit.

C.A total of 7 Amps of power available to supply the unit.

D.Four independently rectified and regulated power supplies.

E.Over 40,000 uF filter capacitance, in small, low ESR multiples.

F.2 oz. gold plated copper used throughout.

How can an Analogue Power Supply be a switcing supply?
From Ayre's website on the DX-5:
•Double regulated analog power supplies

Are Dave Reich and Charles Hansen making Switching Analogue Power
supplies? Norm

Theta already made a statement on this:

Power Supply ~ 100V – 240V, 50/60Hz AC

Universal voltage input products are using switching supplies, end of story.

With linear supplies they either are fixed at a single voltage input or to change to a different input voltage you have to change taps on a transformer.

Shawn
Good detective work Shawn :). Alas, the evidence points the other way. Here is a picture of its guts. Assuming it is right, it sure looks like a linear power supply to me:

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/CompliBlu_power.jpg

Assuming the spec is right, then it could still work. It would be cooking the output regulators to be sure if driven at double the voltage and sure would be odd to not have a switch. But it could be made to work.

That's a switching power supply employing a toroidal transformer. I can count at least four voltage regulators.

That's a switching power supply employing a toroidal transformer. I can count at least four voltage regulators.
An 80 Watt switching power supply would have a transformer that would be a fraction of that size. The one in there is nearly the same size as the 5.25" drive. My laptop switching supply is rated at 150 watts and the entire thing is a quarter of the size of that transformer let alone the whole thing.

Voltage regulators are just that: voltage regulators.

Do you have experience with design of switching power supplies? I designed one long time ago and I can tell you that it doesn't look like that. I don't see the rectification of the A/C up front. Nor the controller IC. It seems like a very simple linear power supply to me. Of course, if you know more than I, I bow to your experience. But you do need to explain more than you have :).

"Alas, the evidence points the other way."

Linear supplies are about 40-50% efficient. Switching is 80-90%. They couldn't go to a linear supply from a switching supply and not need more input power. Input power rating is the same.

Half the power in a linear supply is wasted as heat. Those heatsinks are small, esp. if you think they can run it at double input voltage.

Shawn

"Custom designed ANALOG POWER SUPPLY, which includes the following:"

Means nothing. They could simply be talking about the supply for the analog circuits.

It is also very common for a device to use a switching supply as the main power supply and then use linear regulators after that for things like the analog stage or digital stages.

Shawn

"Alas, the evidence points the other way."

Linear supplies are about 40-50% efficient. Switching is 80-90%. They couldn't go to a linear supply from a switching supply and not need more input power. Input power rating is the same.

Half the power in a linear supply is wasted as heat. Those heatsinks are small, esp. if you think they can run it at double input voltage.

Shawn

Fair enough. But Theta obviously rebuild the power supply and put in a bigger transformer, which would leak more heat than the original smaller one. So even even if the new Compli still had a switching powersupply the power consumption rating would have changed. However, the Compli power specs are exactly identical to the original Oppo. So I conclude most likely Theta simply failed to update the power consumption specs.

Linear supplies are about 40-50% efficient. Switching is 80-90%. They couldn't go to a linear supply from a switching supply and not need more input power. Input power rating is the same.
So? It is the output power requirement which is significant, not input. For all we know, the Oppo power supply is over designed or over spec'ed. I doubt that these players take 80 watts to run.

Half the power in a linear supply is wasted as heat. Those heatsinks are small, esp. if you think they can run it at double input voltage.

Shawn
Well, it all depends on power consumption of the unit. I measured a BD player a couple of years ago and it was very low. I forget the number but I recall 20 watts or lower. Maybe someone can measure the Oppo and tell us what they find.

"Custom designed ANALOG POWER SUPPLY, which includes the following:"

Means nothing. They could simply be talking about the supply for the analog circuits.
Come on guys. Let's not doubt things that are in front of us. Look at the picture I post. Look at the marking on the PCB between the two white molex connectors. Do you see the theta graphics? I do :).

If not, it is this logo upside down:

http://www.thetadigital.com/images/theta_digital_header.jpg

It is trivial to design linear power supplies so it is not a big deal at the end but custom it is. What is not trivial and pain in the neck is to get safety certification and they have gone through that. So I give them some credit in doing so, instead of buying something off-the-shelf.

It is also very common for a device to use a switching supply as the main power supply and then use linear regulators after that for things like the analog stage or digital stages.

Shawn
And we have no evidence of that here. We have a huge transformer sitting separate from the main board. Switching power supplies use smaller transformers that are mounted close to the switching circuits (you don't want to have long wires leaking RF and distorting the waveforms).

There are stuff to pick on. This one is not it guys. They said it has a linear power supply. It sure looks like it does.

What's the blue box next to the IEC input?
My guess is that it is this from their web site:

"Additional, independent 10 Watt transformer for Standby circuit."

Since their other power supply is so inefficient, they put in a smaller unit to keep the thing alive, responding to remote control and such.

Just a guess though :).

My guess is that it is this from their web site:

"Additional, independent 10 Watt transformer for Standby circuit."

Since their other power supply is so inefficient, they put in a smaller unit to keep the thing alive, responding to remote control and such.

Just a guess though :).

Yes, it's all obvious. The blue box is a small 10VA transformer for standby. The big toroidal is a 50/60Hz line transformer (i.e. NOT a switching transformer).

As for the voltage requirements: You can see that the toroidal has dual primary windings (the four wires with the additional black shrink wrap protection). There are probably jumpers on the PCB that let you choose voltage range, or the range is possibly selected by moving around the wires (like it is done in Parasound HALO amplifiers). In addition there's probably another jumper for selecting voltage range for the standby transformer.

Obvious stuff. No rocket science. :D

Its clearly a linear power supply. Well built from a mass and massive power standpoint. the issue like any such supply is how well its eexcute from a speed or impedence standpoint. you can`t tell that from the pictures and info at hand. none of this makes any difference for the standby supply. How well its executed would have a lot to do with the quality of thhe analogue outputs.

I still dont understand how does a mssive power supply improve performance in a Blu ray transport?
Why would it need 7 amps ( or 840 Watts) of power !! and why would it improve performance when you only need only a small farction of that power to run a blu ray transport.??

I still dont understand how does a mssive power supply improve performance in a Blu ray transport?
Why would it need 7 amps ( or 840 Watts) of power !! and why would it improve performance when you only need only a small farction of that power to run a blu ray transport.??
The answer is that for video it doesn't. For audio, "it is a lot more complicated." :)

The answer is that for video it doesn't. For audio, "it is a lot more complicated." :)

So much for the 'better, more 3-D like video' on this player compared to the stock Oppo.

The answer is that for video it doesn't. For audio, "it is a lot more complicated." :)

Even for audio why would it need power anywhere close to that ?? There;s no amplification involved?

So much for the 'better, more 3-D like video' on this player compared to the stock Oppo.
:)

I think there are two possibilities for these observations:

1. The players are implicitly setup differently. The levels could be different (0-255 vs 16-235), video mode different (4:2:2 vs 4:4:4, etc). All of this could occur even with the same display given the fact that one can't confirm the firmware being identical to Oppo. These differences can be ruled out with test patterns. No reason to use subjective testing for video :).

If you all remember the Lexicon story, I forced the reviewer to go back and do some additional audio tests and he found differences in how the firmware treated that stream in each player. So surely there is possibility that one or the other player has bug fixes for certain displays/setups.

2. Imagined differences. Kind of hard to remember the contrast of an image a few minutes later with a different player and worse yet, a few hours or days later.

Either way, I can't think of any reason video would look better with these modifications. If the video connection was analog, driving a CRT, yes. But not with HDMI and "digital" displays. Happy to be educated otherwise :).

I still dont understand how does a mssive power supply improve performance in a Blu ray transport?
Why would it need 7 amps ( or 840 Watts) of power !! and why would it improve performance when you only need only a small farction of that power to run a blu ray transport.??

Suppose you need 10 wpc to drive your horn speakers. You now upgrade your 20wpc crappy amplifier to a 500 wpc state of the art poweramp. Do you need 500wpc? No. Will the 500wpc amp sound better? Most definitely. Same as with the powersupply. The amperage rating has nothing to do with the quality of the power it supplies. If this is a good linear powersupply it will improve SQ, and possibly quite dramatically so.

I was stunned about the difference the PS Audio Powerpland premier made to my marantz ud9004. The AC-12 powercable was another big step up. Power makes a big difference.

Suppose you need 10 wpc to drive your horn speakers. You now upgrade your 20wpc crappy amplifier to a 500 wpc state of the art poweramp. Do you need 500wpc? No. Will the 500wpc amp sound better? Most definitely. Same as with the powersupply. The amperage rating has nothing to do with the quality of the power it supplies. If this is a good linear powersupply it will improve SQ, and possibly quite dramatically so.

I was stunned about the difference the PS Audio Powerpland premier made to my marantz ud9004. The AC-12 powercable was another big step up. Power makes a big difference.

Doesn't sound right analogy to me . It does make difference in power amps to a certain limit as you gain more headroom. Why would you need more headroom in blu ray transport??? ESP headroom of 10000% or more
Regarding power cable.... Electricity is coming from city via regular generic /unshielded aluminum / copper wires for 100's of meters , and then through your walls and ceilings via regular cheap romex wires and adding last 1 m of expensive cable in the chain makes significant improvement is beyond explanation unless you have audio / video cables tied to your power cable and need heavy shielding in power cable. And even then once that expensive AC cable terminates on the chassis , wires on the inside are regular unshielded copper wires!!!
I have tried couple of expensive AC cables against my better judgement and didn't see any difference. It's just my experience and logic, but may be some one can explain the physics behind it.

Mani

Doesn't sound right analogy to me . It does make difference in power amps to a certain limit as you gain more headroom. Why would you need more headroom in blu ray transport??? ESP headroom of 10000% or more
Mani

I am not making the case you need all the headroom in the power supply. I am saying that if you replace a crappy switching powersupply with a good linear one you will get improvement irrespective of amperage rating.


Regarding power cable.... Electricity is coming from city via regular generic /unshielded aluminum / copper wires for 100's of meters , and then through your walls and ceilings via regular cheap romex wires and adding last 1 m of expensive cable in the chain makes significant improvement is beyond explanation unless you have audio / video cables tied to your power cable and need heavy shielding in power cable. And even then once that expensive AC cable terminates on the chassis , wires on the inside are regular unshielded copper wires!!!
I have tried couple of expensive AC cables against my better judgement and didn't see any difference. It's just my experience and logic, but may be some one can explain the physics behind it.
Mani

I could not agree more. I never bothered with expensive power cords for power from the wall for precisely this reason. However, if you regenerate the power this all changes. Now theoretically you have clean power and cabling between the regenerator and components makes a difference. Fully anticipating this to be just theory and highly suspecious of spending $$$ on powercords I bought one AC-12 for cheap, 90% expecting this to be snakeoil and having to resell it. Surprise - the cord made a big difference and I ended up buying two more.....

For the record, I was a highly sceptical of the whole power treatment concept to begin with. I was using a $3000 furman reference 20i conditioner with no audible impact to me (expensive surge protector). Just for kicks decided to try the PS Audio Powerplant Premier and it took me all of 5 seconds to hear a big difference. Go figure....

I do agree with clean power. I went with ground one since I was building home and theater from scratch . I think it was overkill , but you dont get this oppurtunity again. So I went with Ground one.,,, Art Klemes built a 100 AMP custom panel for my equipment room and I am feeding 240V from city directly to that panel.It has 24 20 AMP breakers . The ground is not shared with anything else, It has humungous isolation transformer and has its own surge protector and RF noise filter etc. All the outlets for theater will originate from this panel . So I dont think I will lneed any power conditioning or special cables. It definitley is very expensive option but hopefully a permanent option for the clean power .
If anyone is interested Art Klemes is a great guy to deal with ...very knowledgable and approachable.
For the record I have used PS audio P1000, monster, Furman etc in the past

One thing which must be understood is that these will be in short supply due to Oppo coming out with a 1.4 model soon. Theta was supposed to get there 1.4 unit from Oppo about a week ago to determine if the Compli Blu modifications are turnkey or need to be updated. We will be seing 1.4 Compli Blu's soon, but I expect not by CEDIA. Norm

One thing which must be understood is that these will be in short supply due to Oppo coming out with a 1.4 model soon. Theta was supposed to get there 1.4 unit from Oppo about a week ago to determine if the Compli Blu modifications are turnkey or need to be updated. We will be seing 1.4 Compli Blu's soon, but I expect not by CEDIA. Norm

Will Theta take the opportunity to use the Oppo SE platform I wonder?

Theta already made a statement on this:

Power Supply ~ 100V – 240V, 50/60Hz AC

Universal voltage input products are using switching supplies, end of story.

With linear supplies they either are fixed at a single voltage input or to change to a different input voltage you have to change taps on a transformer.

Shawn
Here is the final statement on the Power Supply in the Compli Blu:
"The Theta Compli Blu power supply has a large toroid transformer with multiple taps, and all separate linear supplies with their own rectifiers and cap stages, and one switcher which runs the mechanism. (The OPPO supply is 100% switching)." Dave Reich Power Supply Designer, Theta Digital Compli Blu.
Hope this settles it. Norm

I still dont understand how does a mssive power supply improve performance in a Blu ray transport?
Why would it need 7 amps ( or 840 Watts) of power !! and why would it improve performance when you only need only a small farction of that power to run a blu ray transport.??

7 amps at 5 volts is 7*5=35W (well VA strictly speaking, but let's just say W)
7 amps at 12 volts is 7*12=84W
7 amps at 120 volts 7*120=840W

So it all depends on the voltage. While 7 amperes most likely are needed @5V you certainly don't need that amount for 12V and clearly the power supply is not delivering 120V ;)

I think the purists' argument for using a linear power supply is to get "clean" power, not powwer that has been "chopped up" :D I won't even try to debate this issue...

Also just because you have the much power available, it doesn't necessarily mean you are using it. The only power you use is from the load and any loss due to inefficiencies from the P.S. design. 840Watts isn't enough to power my gaming rig. I'm up to 1200 Watts (includes power for water cooling). By having a larger power supply there is a good chance that there will be less fluctuations in the voltages and current capability = "clean power". I have not seen the schematics nor made any measurements. I'd like to give Dave Reich some credit that he would not design a bad supply. But stranger things have happened when corporate gets in way.

Also just because you have the much power available, it doesn't necessarily mean you are using it. The only power you use is from the load and any loss due to inefficiencies from the P.S. design. 840Watts isn't enough to power my gaming rig. I'm up to 1200 Watts (includes power for water cooling). By having a larger power supply there is a good chance that there will be less fluctuations in the voltages and current capability = "clean power". I have not seen the schematics nor made any measurements. I'd like to give Dave Reich some credit that he would not design a bad supply. But stranger things have happened when corporate gets in way.
Jim, my ears tell me he's designed an Extraordinary PS. Norm

Also just because you have the much power available, it doesn't necessarily mean you are using it. The only power you use is from the load and any loss due to inefficiencies from the P.S. design. 840Watts isn't enough to power my gaming rig.

And all that power is eventually converted into heat! Some by losses in the PS, the rest in other components like the CPU. Energy does not disappear.

That linear power supply is nowhere near 840 watts. An 840VA transformer is a lot bigger than that.

Look at the specs Tyree91 posted above. The Theta power supply is 80 WATTS

You guys are BANANAS! OK, we're all bananas for even being here, but you guys are a special breed of banana.

Sorry, but do you all use your ears or sheets of paper to enjoy your A/V? This arguement has gone overboard...like so many others. Who cares about the actual spec, or the heat generated, or the efficiency of the design? Really, are these items going to tip you one way or the other in your decision process. How can you possibly judge the merit of a product you have never actually experienced? If you do this, then you're truly just taking an naive guess.

I've been in this hobby since CDs were introduced. There are a lot of things I don't get in A/V - frankly I've moved on as to why. Many of you are making statements of fact and authority when you are not qualified and many of the so-called facts are less than accurate. This misleads those who can't talk the talk. So please post responsibly and try to in a positive light.

1) Specs are generally only worth the paper they're written on, and less than that if found on the internet (until they are printed out as a hard copy - and then their value increases only to the value of the paper they are printed on.
2) Life will become rather disappointing if you believe everything you read, and especially if you base all your purchases on published specifications. (Wine is a good example - I still can't find a good bottle of cheap Pinot Noir)(cars too, another good example...drive before purchasing).
3) Are you all arguing about if the power supply has been changed (see photos), or the merit of changing it. A significant number of modders change the PS, some even make it outboard, and on more than just CDPs. My guess is most agree here, but this discussion makes it hard to tell sometimes.
4) Could 80 Watts simply be a marketing typo? Maybe it should read 80VA - see my photos. This transformer is for a project I never got to, but back then I noted that several components run on 15v AC from the PS, and some even used a variation of this very torroid. Perhaps this is the case here since it's about the same size. If so, then the only thing that's disappointing is that they didn't catch it, or correct it.(the typo).

Nevertheless, it should be clear the PS is unique to the Theta...can we move on and hopefully hear from some folks who have experienced the darned thing? Preferably someone who doesn't own one, but in a reasonably good set-up. Owners are always thought to be biased, and for good reason.

Hey, that's Mr. Bananas to you, pal!

Hey buddy, don't call me pal!;)

You guys are BANANAS! OK, we're all bananas for even being here, but you guys are a special breed of banana.

Sorry, but do you all use your ears or sheets of paper to enjoy your A/V? This arguement has gone overboard...like so many others. Who cares about the actual spec, or the heat generated, or the efficiency of the design? Really, are these items going to tip you one way or the other in your decision process. How can you possibly judge the merit of a product you have never actually experienced? If you do this, then you're truly just taking an naive guess.

I've been in this hobby since CDs were introduced. There are a lot of things I don't get in A/V - frankly I've moved on as to why. Many of you are making statements of fact and authority when you are not qualified and many of the so-called facts are less than accurate. This misleads those who can't talk the talk. So please post responsibly and try to in a positive light.

1) Specs are generally only worth the paper they're written on, and less than that if found on the internet (until they are printed out as a hard copy - and then their value increases only to the value of the paper they are printed on.
2) Life will become rather disappointing if you believe everything you read, and especially if you base all your purchases on published specifications. (Wine is a good example - I still can't find a good bottle of cheap Pinot Noir)(cars too, another good example...drive before purchasing).
3) Are you all arguing about if the power supply has been changed (see photos), or the merit of changing it. A significant number of modders change the PS, some even make it outboard, and on more than just CDPs. My guess is most agree here, but this discussion makes it hard to tell sometimes.
4) Could 80 Watts simply be a marketing typo? Maybe it should read 80VA - see my photos. This transformer is for a project I never got to, but back then I noted that several components run on 15v AC from the PS, and some even used a variation of this very torroid. Perhaps this is the case here since it's about the same size. If so, then the only thing that's disappointing is that they didn't catch it, or correct it.(the typo).

Nevertheless, it should be clear the PS is unique to the Theta...can we move on and hopefully hear from some folks who have experienced the darned thing? Preferably someone who doesn't own one, but in a reasonably good set-up. Owners are always thought to be biased, and for good reason.

Wise words. I would go a step further and say not only do specs not matter, you can largely dismiss measurements as well. I recently did a shootout between Revel Studios and Verity Audio Parsifal Encore's in my basement, and the while the former measured a lot better in my room, the latter sounded much better (I sold the Revels).

I'm sure we would all rather discuss the results of the double blind equipment shootout sessions we did over the week-end, but there is only so much gear you can move in an out of your theater, so we have to resort to chatter over the relative mertis of analog preamps over HDMI SSPs, linear powersupplies over switching and so on. Call it the curse of the audio/videophile.

Wise words. I would go a step further and say not only do specs not matter, you can largely dismiss measurements as well. I recently did a shootout between Revel Studios and Verity Audio Parsifal Encore's in my basement, and the while the former measured a lot better in my room, the latter sounded much better (I sold the Revels).

I'm sure we would all rather discuss the results of the double blind equipment shootout sessions we did over the week-end, but there is only so much gear you can move in an out of your theater, so we have to resort to chatter over the relative mertis of analog preamps over HDMI SSPs, linear powersupplies over switching and so on. Call it the curse of the audio/videophile.

So true - I had an engineer who was a lifelong audiophile and whose wife was a professional musician. Just like an engineer, he couldn't get off the numbers and measurements. I kept asking him to listen instead of measuring first and his response was always that his wife had the golden ear...I wondered if actually enjoyed listening for himself.

When I told him I had a tube based preamp, I immediately followed with a strong statement that I liked it a lot, and I've gone through plenty of others in comparison, and I have no interest in hearing his derogatory BS about anything with tubes. He also feels all cdps are the same...it's just "0's" and "1's" in differing order, with different DACs...that's all...that's when I leave.

Maybe he says it on purpose. LOL

I'm going t see if I can hear a Compli Blu at a nearby dealer. They have some other nice gear in there that I'll likely be familiar with. They're also a big EMM dealer, so perhaps I can put it up next to an EMM CDSA-SE.

I currently use a Marantz 8002 player. I'd hope the Compli Blu has as good a picture. Anyone out there seen it to be able to comment?

You guys are BANANAS! OK, we're all bananas for even being here, but you guys are a special breed of banana.

Sorry, but do you all use your ears or sheets of paper to enjoy your A/V? This arguement has gone overboard...like so many others. Who cares about the actual spec, or the heat generated, or the efficiency of the design? Really, are these items going to tip you one way or the other in your decision process. How can you possibly judge the merit of a product you have never actually experienced? If you do this, then you're truly just taking an naive guess.

I've been in this hobby since CDs were introduced. There are a lot of things I don't get in A/V - frankly I've moved on as to why. Many of you are making statements of fact and authority when you are not qualified and many of the so-called facts are less than accurate. This misleads those who can't talk the talk. So please post responsibly and try to in a positive light.

1) Specs are generally only worth the paper they're written on, and less than that if found on the internet (until they are printed out as a hard copy - and then their value increases only to the value of the paper they are printed on.
2) Life will become rather disappointing if you believe everything you read, and especially if you base all your purchases on published specifications. (Wine is a good example - I still can't find a good bottle of cheap Pinot Noir)(cars too, another good example...drive before purchasing).
3) Are you all arguing about if the power supply has been changed (see photos), or the merit of changing it. A significant number of modders change the PS, some even make it outboard, and on more than just CDPs. My guess is most agree here, but this discussion makes it hard to tell sometimes.
4) Could 80 Watts simply be a marketing typo? Maybe it should read 80VA - see my photos. This transformer is for a project I never got to, but back then I noted that several components run on 15v AC from the PS, and some even used a variation of this very torroid. Perhaps this is the case here since it's about the same size. If so, then the only thing that's disappointing is that they didn't catch it, or correct it.(the typo).

Nevertheless, it should be clear the PS is unique to the Theta...can we move on and hopefully hear from some folks who have experienced the darned thing? Preferably someone who doesn't own one, but in a reasonably good set-up. Owners are always thought to be biased, and for good reason.
For the record, I don't own a Compli Blu. We have an Elite BDP-09FD in our reference system. Norm

I finally have a Compli Blu here now. It is surprisingly good IMO...subjectively of course. I should also have a NuForce Oppo here soon for comparison/reference since my current reference player is modded enough that it bears no sonic signature that anyone can relate to. BTW, the toroidal transformer does in fact say 80VA right in it, and it doesn't run notably hotter than any other player.

I would not necessarily write-off owners' responses entirely. Some of us are actually objective and buy things for the right reasons, and have done A/B comparisons to judge which is better, PRE-purchase. I understand the fanboy syndrome, but it does not always apply.

I'm interested to hear the results of the Compli-Blu vs NuForce comparision. IMHO, the bottom line is, Oppo has still provided a world-class solution for a bargain price. That others are using it as the backbone for their models (some nothing relatively more than a rebadge or re-packaging) is quite a compliment.

Agreed - And I don't write off comments from folks that have heard things for themselves. But I do get frustrated by people making strong conclusions based upon some marketing guy's release of specs.

BTW - I read somewhere they ceased production of the Oppos because the drives (maybe by Sony) aren't being made anymore. Surprising. Who knows what true anymore though.

Agreed - And I don't write off comments from folks that have heard things for themselves. But I do get frustrated by people making strong conclusions based upon some marketing guy's release of specs.



Some folks like The Bland go out of their way to buy SSPs without specs!

Some folks like The Bland go out of their way to buy SSPs without specs!

Yes but he did read it somewhere on the net and did spend the night at a Holiday Inn.

What I like about Jeff is he has no problem getting all hot and bothered over a new box and is willing to burn money and be the first. Or is it be the first and the box be D@@med? Either way he sure goes through the gear.

Holiday Inn...that's where the mistake is.

For future reference, stay at Holiday Inn Express.;)

Anyway, we digress, and even though I've commented, I probably shouldn't because this all came from left field, is off topic, and is uncalled for in this thread.:o Let's not throw people under the bus anymore and we'll all be happier.

I should have a NuForce player here tomorrow to begin comparison against something similar. My reference player has been "massaged" inside so it bears no resemblance to anything folks would be familiar with regarding the sound quality. I will say it was a $6K unit when new. I will also say I am impressed with the Theta so far. Especially for the price, and I'm not talking 3K since we know no one here would pay that anyway.

Especially for the price, and I'm not talking 3K since we know no one here would pay that anyway.

I'm a little suprised these things haven't started popping up on Audiogon now that Oppo announced the model 93. Perhaps not many compliblu's sold in the first place, or the vast majority of buyers have better things to do than obsess over this stuff.

Very interested to hear your comments comparing the Theta with NuForce. Do you plan to compare SACD?