Subjective: PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport-Theta CB3 Extreme DACS Stellar Combo! [Text View]

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 07:23 PM

The subjective means please avoid discussing objective rants re level matching, double blind testing, ranting about break-in or power cords, etc. I am not interested. Do you own thread if you wanna do that stuff. Thanks.

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/perfectwave-transport?cat=audio for info on the new PS Audio PerfectWave Transport

Our Az AV Club had a club demo by Paul McGowan, President, PS Audio, of their brand spankin' new Perfectwave Transport and PerfectWave DAC at our meeting at the end of June!!!

I was impressed and ordered one direct from PS Audio (I admit to paying a lotta money but getting a reviewer type discount) and I set it up last Wednesday.

If folks behave, I will continue this thread over time as I use my new PS Audio PerfectWave Transport. If folks I simply will enjoy my system but no longer post about this stupendous product.

In summary - if you have a Theta Casablanca 3 with Extreme DACs, then you can forget about SACD and DVD-A, even if you have matched floorstanding speakers and amps all around for the best multi-channel sound, because redbook CD in stereo alone is better sounding than anything else, period! Its that good. Redbook CD in Circle Surround is also very outstanding but you can at times detect a bit of processing, I surmise from the surround derivation, so it may be even better just stereo. And though SACD and DVD-A multi-channel always sounded great in my setup, they are not just beat a bit but the new PS Audio sort of beats them by several steps in the naturalness of being there, soundstaging, vocal, etc. That much closer to actually being there.

I wasn't expecting the PS Audio to be this good. I was hoping it might make redbook CD sound closer or as good if I was lucky as SACD. My expectations were trounced!!@@

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 07:25 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 07:35 PM

Initially I setup the PS Audio PerfectWave Transport on a Symposium Ultra platform, and used a API power cord and a Cardas AES/EBU digital cable,
last Wednesday nite. I then didn't have a Granite Audio power cord which would reach to the PS Audio Premier Power Plant without moving stuff arund (I had a longer Granite Audio power cord stored at my office, as I was gonna sell it, and I later brought it home and used it for today's demo),

Initially, after an hour or two, the player sounded quite nice using redbook CD. But it didn't make wanna listen and enjoy any more or even as much as my Theta Compli for redbook and certainly not as good as my SACD or DVD-A. BURN-IN NEEDED? Next few days burned-in player around the clock except for a hour or two each day. Last night, connected Granite Audio power cord, and inserted Symposium Rollerblocks.

Then I played cuts of our 2001 Arizona Audiophile Society Sampler CD:

1)
Spanish Harlem (http://javascript: edittracktitle(1,1625))
03:37

Rebecca Pidgeon from The Raven (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Rebecca Pidgeon from The Raven',1,1625))

2)
Jamaica Heartbeat (http://javascript: edittracktitle(2,1625))
05:33

Acoustic Alchemy from Back on the Case (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Acoustic Alchemy from Back on the Case',2,1625))

3)
Too Proud (http://javascript: edittracktitle(3,1625))
04:40

Sam McClain from BluesQuest (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Sam McClain from BluesQuest',3,1625))

4)
Rakoczy March (http://javascript: edittracktitle(4,1625))
04:42

Baltimore Symphony from La Marseillaise (Berlloz) (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Baltimore Symphony from La Marseillaise (Berlloz) ',4,1625))

5)
WIcked Game (http://javascript: edittracktitle(5,1625))
04:51

Chris Isaak from Heart Shaped World (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Chris Isaak from Heart Shaped World',5,1625))

6)
Peel Me a Grape (http://javascript: edittracktitle(6,1625))
05:52

Diana Krall from Love Scenes (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Diana Krall from Love Scenes',6,1625))

7)
You and Your Friends (http://javascript: edittracktitle(7,1625))
06:02

Dire Straits from On Every Street (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Dire Straits from On Every Street',7,1625))

8)
Overture (http://javascript: edittracktitle(8,1625))
04:45

Carter Burwell from Celtic Moods (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Carter Burwell from Celtic Moods',8,1625))

9)
A Chorus Line (http://javascript: edittracktitle(9,1625))
09:00

Dallas Wind Symphony from Beachcomber (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Dallas Wind Symphony from Beachcomber',9,1625))

10)
Five Women (http://javascript: edittracktitle(10,1625))
05:37

Joe Cocker from Night Calls (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Joe Cocker from Night Calls',10,1625))

11)
Kansas City Monarch (http://javascript: edittracktitle(11,1625))
07:41

Ronnie Earl from Still River (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Ronnie Earl from Still River',11,1625))

12)
Little Dog`s Day (http://javascript: edittracktitle(12,1625))
02:18

Kim Kattral from Mark Levinson Live Music (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Kim Kattral from Mark Levinson Live Music',12,1625))

13)
Back in the Woods (http://javascript: edittracktitle(13,1625))
02:55

Douglas Rosenberg from Skip Hop & Wobble (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Douglas Rosenberg from Skip Hop & Wobble',13,1625))

14)
Little Chubby (http://javascript: edittracktitle(14,1625))
01:37

Thom Rhotella from Thom Rhotella Band (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Thom Rhotella from Thom Rhotella Band',14,1625))

15)
The Vikings (http://javascript: edittracktitle(15,1625))
04:32

Dallas Wind Symphony from Pomp & Pipes (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Dallas Wind Symphony from Pomp & Pipes',15,1625))

16)
Spaseniye Sodelal (http://javascript: edittracktitle(16,1625))
04:08

Turtle Creek Chorale from Postcards (http://javascript: editalbumtrackartest('Turtle Creek Chorale from Postcards',16,1625))

I have used this disc to test in my system for years and I know how it sounds So does my audiophile friend Lon, who would assist me in the demo Saturday (today).

Woops! Last night I could tell I had something special. But just listened a bit, played a Blu Ray movie, went to sleep, all the while continuing the burn-in process, this time with a special Purist Audio Burn-IN CD that I,ve used for years. I also used that burn-in disc this AM on my Theta Compli to ensure it was at its best.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 07:37 PM

I was playing the CD Emmylous Harris "Spyboy" when Lon arrived. WOW! I almost felt like I was there, as did Lon. I love this CD but its never sounded like this before!

Next - lunch break, to celebrate Lon's birthday yesterday!!!@@@

Steve Dodds

08-08-09, 07:42 PM

So Redbook CD now sounds better than SACD and DVD-A to you?

You were wise to ask people not to comment.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 07:45 PM

Now we're back from Thai lunch at Nundaphal's Thai Cuisine, downtown Mesa, the best Thai food outside Thailand on the Planet Earth!!!

Using the PerfectWave Transport - we played:

"1812 Overture", all 14+ minutes, from the multi-channel SACD disc with test tones, but played the stereo track. WOW! So much like we were there live listening. The Children's Chorus was in front of us. Voicing was
wonderful - closer to those few top stereo systems I've ever heard!
Lon and I both felt pulled into the music like never before in my system even SACD or DVD-A.

We then played the last several minutes of the same cut, but in multi-channel SACD, via the Theta Compli. What once had been superb in my system was not equaled by the Perfectwave Transport. It was trounced by the PerfectWave Transport.

The only exceptions are the Compli SACD, with discrete multi-channel mixes, had a few extra bells coming from the surrounds, and on those loud bass passages arguably better bass. But that was to be expected,
as all of my Aerial speakers at via the Theta CB3 high and low pass cross- overed (Phase Perfect) 40 Hz 6 dB, so the multi-channel mix is gonna have m ore bass. But if there was a redbook mix discrete multi-channel and SACD then redbook would have also trounced SACD in the bass, too.

From an enjoyment standpoint there was NO CONTEST - redbook trounced SACD thanks to PS Audio.:D

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 07:48 PM

Next we went through all the sounds on the 2001 CD Sampler, Az Audiophile Society, songs listed above in this thread. With the PerfectWave Transport.

Every song was simply incredible like never before. Thats all there is to it.

Then we played the same sampler disc, cuts thereof, on the Theta Compli, using Cardas AES/EBU digital out to Theta Casablanca 3 with its Extreme DACs. From the outset, no contest. What had been very listenable and impressive, redbook CD by the Compli, was in comparison trounced!!!@@@

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 07:56 PM

At this point, no need to even go back to Compli for any more redbook CD or even for SACD. Lets listen to more redbook CD via PS Audio!!!@@@

In the late 90's I luved to listen to Chuck Loeb's Memory Lane, a redbook CD encoded in Circle Surround, which I played in my Casablanca 1's Circle Surround mode. So I played a bit of it. Really nice!!!

Played some Christy Baron, again the redbook track from a SACD. Wonderful, voicing and staging like never befor in my system.

I tried a few 96-24 DVDs that I have, which play on my Theta Compli digital out to my Theta CB3 Extreme DACs. They won't play, says "invalid disc". Paul McGowan mentioned that the PerfectWave DAC will play WAV files at higher resolutions, but apparently these DVDs are not WAV files. Oh well.

Next I played some cuts from a test redbook CD from Usher Audio, wich some great stuff including George Bensen. Lon salivated that though his stereo system sounds nice on this its nothing like mine now. Just sounded wonderful!!!

Lon had to go home so his wife can take him out on the town for his birthday.

I need to rest and also post this. HA!

I will be doing more in days and weeks to come, and if you behave, I will post more.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 08:03 PM

Oh - what got me interested in the PerfectWave Transport?

Lotta buzz by audiophiles I know abandoning their expensive redbook CD transports for music servers, mostly saying to them the sound quality of the music servers is somewhat better or at least close to as good as their CD player, and they love the convenience of the music server.

Then I heard about the upcoming PS Audio PerfectWave Transport,
A bit of info from the PS Audio website shows why I am interested:

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/perfectwave-transport?cat=audio

"Using an optical ROM reader (http://www.avsforum.com/ps/wiki/optical-disc-storage-medium/) , the PWT extracts the data off any CD or DVD in bit-perfect condition without using error correction (http://www.avsforum.com/ps/wiki/reed-solomon-error-correction/) and places that data into a special version of the PS Audio Digital Lens. Once inside the Digital lens, the musical information is stored in pure form without clocks or any reference to time. The stored musical information is then retrieved by the PWT's asynchronous fixed timing clock (http://www.avsforum.com/ps/wiki/asynchronous-clock/) and output to your DAC with perfect timing and extremely low jitter (http://www.avsforum.com/ps/wiki/jitter/) through its digital audio outputs, or jitter-free through the HDMI connector. (http://www.avsforum.com/ps/wiki/hdmi/)
The results are remarkable. Based on comparisons with any standard technology CD or computer based system, the PWT produces hands-down noticeably better performance for any listener on any system. This transport unlocks all the musical magic stored in your CD library and hidden from you all this time."

For now I don't mind picking my CDs off my rack instead of a more expensive music server. And I felt that this new CD player by PS Audio would perhaps even sound better than the various more expensive music server systems. And I knew I could also get a reviewer discount from PS Audio, and if by chance I didn't like it, I'd sell it. No need for that, it ain't goin' nowhere.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 08:05 PM

Now if I were to add the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC, MSRP also 3 grand, then later this year when the Music Bridge, MSRP $500, comes out, I can add a hard drive and have a server. I may consider this later, but not right now. Right now I am enjoying my Theta CB3 Extreme DACs with the PS Audio PerfectWave Transport and that is that.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-08-09, 08:15 PM

A few other notes:

We find that using Circle Surround 2, Circle Music, with the PW Transport,
sounds best with the CB3 Center Spread feature off.

And Lon preferred Stereo mode. He was in the rear center between the rear speakers. I was in the front middle and in center of all the speakers.
I have to do more listening to see if I have a preference, Stereo and Circle Music seemed close.

With the Theta Compli on redbook CD, Circle Music's front end sounded identical whether in Stereo or Circle Music mode - the Circle mode simply added a bit of ambience in the rear to widen the sound stage.

But with the PS Audio, Lon felt he may have heard it sound a bit veiled in Circle Music in comparison to stereo, which could be the case due to the transparency of the player. I need to do more listening to determine this for myself.

audioguy

08-09-09, 06:42 AM

Many believe that the reason music servers sound as good as they do is that when the CD is ripped to the server, and since it does not have to do so in real time, that bit perfect copies are guaranteed....and hence low jitter. Any chance of comparing your new toy to identical music played off a new server into your DAC's in a A/B comparison?

NIN74

08-09-09, 07:06 AM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-09-09, 12:03 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-09-09, 01:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEtBMOa5NfQ

Here's a YouTube video with PS Audio's Paul McGowan demoing the PerfectWave Transport and DAC (I only have the Transport).

Frank Derks

08-09-09, 04:24 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-09-09, 04:36 PM

You do realize that in studios and production facilities where these discs are created the files are stored on rather large 'music servers'.
So somehow through this PS audio transport the derived 16bit cd sound superiour to the 24 bit masters played straight from the studios music storage system. Right... :rolleyes:

If only you had even a little understanding about how data is stored as pits and lands on a cd you would have know that the marketing blurp you quote about the transport is utter nonsense.

THis is not about your alleged version of objectivity. This is how on what I demod my system sounded. PS Audio's explanation or your explanation mean nothing if the sound isn't better than what a already have. On what I played, the PS Audio player simply bested easily my Theta Compli both in redbook and even in SACD, the latter which was startling.

Frank Derks

08-09-09, 05:16 PM

I don't have a music server. But if someone wants to bring one over I'd luv to do such a demo!

It turns out that you might have a music server now.
When this transport playes the disc it stores the audio files pulled from the discs into memory and playes it from there.
Does it remember cd's you played previously and can you replay them without re inserting the disc? (the Youtube wasn't clear about that )
Or does it only buffer the one disc you are playing.

From your post I gather you go to your dac over the spdiff output and you are not using the superior I2S interface the PerfecrWave combo supports.

It turns out the transport still uses the usual error correction before storing the discs contents in memory. It's only the playback from memory that doesn't need the error correction.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-09-09, 06:14 PM

It turns out that you might have a music server now. When this transport playes the disc it stores the audio files pulled from the discs into memory and playes it from there.
Does it remember cd's you played previously and can you replay them without re inserting the disc? (the Youtube wasn't clear about that )
Or does it only buffer the one disc you are playing.

From your post I gather you go to your dac over the spdiff output and you are not using the superior I2S interface the PerfecrWave combo supports.

It turns out the transport still uses the usual error correction before storing the discs contents in memory. It's only the playback from memory that doesn't need the error correction.

The player remembers so many minutes or more of the current song and thereafter - how much exactly I do not know. But once you take out the CD, it continues playing - I haven't measured how long. Then if you push stop it stops playing whatever song and thats it.

However, the PerfectWave DAC, which I didn't get, is going to have a Bridge available which you connect to your music server. I didn't get the DAC. I am using AES/EBU digital balanced from the Transport to my Theta CB3 surround processor and its Extreme DACs. I just wasn't expecting it would sound as good as it does, quite marvelous!

thebland

08-09-09, 07:02 PM

I think what Frank is saying is if the CD source is 24 bit, the CD is 16 bits and the PS AUDIO is simply recording the CD (as you can remove it an still listen to it), what could it be doing to improve upon the 16 bit source?

Correct?

Chu Gai

08-09-09, 07:13 PM

Test reports for both products can be found at milleraudioresearch.com. You'll need to register for access to the test data.

oddeofile

08-09-09, 07:53 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEtBMOa5NfQ

Here's a YouTube video with PS Audio's Paul McGowan demoing the PerfectWave Transport and DAC (I only have the Transport).

Steve, as a Beta Tester of the combo, you need to beg, borrow or well, obtain a PWD to try this in the HDMI I2S proprietary native feed. I think you will be extremely amazed. I am now waiting for my I2S12 PS Audio HDMI reference cable to arrive in the next few weeks. The combo was voiced with this cable. I run mine off my PPP and PS Audio Premier silver/PCOCC power cords. Superb.

I noted a distinct improvement in the native mode through I2S connections that takes the next step forward. See if you can get Paul to send you one to try. I would be most interested to hear your comments, as well.

Best,

Odd

Steve Bruzonsky

08-09-09, 08:12 PM

Test reports for both products can be found at milleraudioresearch.com. You'll need to register for access to the test data..

Chu, both you and The Bland aren't hear listening to my system so I don't care what you don't hear and think you know. Sorry.

I titled this thread SUBJECTIVE for a reason. If you don't like it, start your own objective thread for those like Curt (where are you?), Chu, etc who think all CD transports sound the same anyway. I once would have thought that until I listened!!!@@@ The same "objective" but not really FARTS would be thrown at each and every CD transport claiming to be better than a Chinese $99 CD player with a digital output by some of you.
Those of us who frequent this forum and have had different CD players in nour systems hear differently.

PeterS

08-09-09, 09:19 PM

Steve,

Glad you like it. However, am quite certain I can best it. This is not an idle boast. Let me know if you are ever in Chicago. You ain't heard nuthin' yet!

www.bluesmokesystems.com

Peter

Steve Bruzonsky

08-09-09, 09:35 PM

Steve,

Glad you like it. However, am quite certain I can best it. This is not an idle boast. Let me know if you are ever in Chicago. You ain't heard nuthin' yet!

www.bluesmokesystems.com (http://www.bluesmokesystems.com)

Peter

But for how much? I like my reviewer pricing on this, it fits my budget!!!
I'm not saying there isn't even better stuff out there, but for its retail cost, what the PS Audio Perfectwave Transport does in my system for redbook CD alone is simply marvelous!! You can PM me reviewing pricing info if you like, but I somewhat suspect your pricing is far above my budget line. Oh well!

Steve Dodds

08-09-09, 11:00 PM

NIN74

08-10-09, 05:13 AM

This is a forum, if you don't want people to respond to your post you maybe should start a homepage or something, where no one can respond what you write?

Chu Gai

08-10-09, 07:19 AM

.

Chu, both you and The Bland aren't hear listening to my system so I don't care what you don't hear and think you know. Sorry.

I titled this thread SUBJECTIVE for a reason. If you don't like it, start your own objective thread for those like Curt (where are you?), Chu, etc who think all CD transports sound the same anyway. I once would have thought that until I listened!!!@@@ The same "objective" but not really FARTS would be thrown at each and every CD transport claiming to be better than a Chinese $99 CD player with a digital output by some of you.
Those of us who frequent this forum and have had different CD players in nour systems hear differently.

Steve, I made no comment whatsoever regarding how things sounded to you. I made no comment about your system. I made no comment regarding any of the other things you said above. You've stuck words in my mouth. I simply gave a link, which you probably didn't even bother to read ('course you'd have to register) which provided some measurements. If you'd have bothered to read it, you'd have found they don't addrees how it sounds. If you'd bothered to read it you'd have found that measurements for the transport were quite acceptable.
Frankly, you owe me an apology.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-10-09, 10:14 AM

Steve, I made no comment whatsoever regarding how things sounded to you. I made no comment about your system. I made no comment regarding any of the other things you said above. You've stuck words in my mouth. I simply gave a link, which you probably didn't even bother to read ('course you'd have to register) which provided some measurements. If you'd have bothered to read it, you'd have found they don't addrees how it sounds. If you'd bothered to read it you'd have found that measurements for the transport were quite acceptable.
Frankly, you owe me an apology.

Woops. Chu, you are right. I apologize.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-10-09, 10:15 AM

This is a forum, if you don't want people to respond to your post you maybe should start a homepage or something, where no one can respond what you write?

Read the thread title and my first post. You are not responsive.:cool:

Steve Bruzonsky

08-10-09, 10:17 AM

It's not about what you think you hear in your system. You obviously hear what you want to hear and good on you.

But your claim that buffered 16 bit is better than 24 bit is nonsense.

Unless of course PS Audio is applying some kind of shaping to make it sound more euphonious.

In the context of my component, room and setup I told you how it sounds to me and Lon. Thats all.

I'm not saying that the best SACD or DVD-A transport, or perhaps even the very best redbook CD transport, might not sound as good or better whether in my system or someone else's.

Chu Gai

08-10-09, 11:00 AM

Woops. Chu, you are right. I apologize.
Now, we're friends again!

Steve Bruzonsky

08-10-09, 11:10 AM

Now, we're friends again!

Chu, we were friends anyway. We can disagree. HA!@@@:eek:

Chu Gai

08-10-09, 11:27 AM

It's not about what you think you hear in your system. You obviously hear what you want to hear and good on you.

But your claim that buffered 16 bit is better than 24 bit is nonsense.

Unless of course PS Audio is applying some kind of shaping to make it sound more euphonious.I don't quite see how, Steve. Functioning solely as a transport, it's job is to get the data off the disk by running it through the error correction circuitry. There still hasn't been any digital to analog conversion.

NIN74

08-10-09, 11:46 AM

Read the thread title and my first post. You are not responsive.:cool:

Off course I am. One can subjectively listen to transport and see that jitter is of no issue today on almost all transports. :cool:

twenty/twenty

08-10-09, 12:17 PM

Steve, as a Beta Tester of the combo, you need to beg, borrow or well, obtain a PWD to try this in the HDMI I2S proprietary native feed. I think you will be extremely amazed. I am now waiting for my I2S12 PS Audio HDMI reference cable to arrive in the next few weeks. The combo was voiced with this cable. I run mine off my PPP and PS Audio Premier silver/PCOCC power cords. Superb.

I noted a distinct improvement in the native mode through I2S connections that takes the next step forward. See if you can get Paul to send you one to try. I would be most interested to hear your comments, as well.

Best,

Odd

Why the two seperate components? Combining them would eliminate the cable altogether, which should sound even better. Have one or two digital inputs and one output and charge $4000 instead of $6000.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-10-09, 12:58 PM

I don't quite see how, Steve. Functioning solely as a transport, it's job is to get the data off the disk by running it through the error correction circuitry. There still hasn't been any digital to analog conversion.

"See"???

We're talkin' about listening.

This thread is about my subjective perception, which is more important to me than all the objective discussion pro and con.

This thread isn't about all CD players or music servers as digital transports sound the same. They don't in some cases at least to me in my system, and that is what counts, not someone else's religious objective bias.

Chu, as I said, we can disagree and still be friends. At least you and I can.

Chu Gai

08-10-09, 01:46 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-10-09, 03:15 PM

Hey there! I was talking to Dodds about what he said. I have no idea why you're hearing what you're hearing. I listened to PM's video and his comments are more or less in line with respect to what the transport is supposed to do.

All I know is I know how my system sounds and this transport is "The Real McCoy" and improves on my Theta Compli as a redbook transport, and my Compli was similar to my prior Theta Voyager as a redbook transport.
I also for a time had a Granite Audio 657 tube CD player, and when used only as a digital transport I then found it sound similar to my then Voyager. I have used or tried a few other players in my system, a Pioneer CLD-D704 LD & CD player, a Pioneer RP82 and RP91, a Theta Carmen 2, and none of them sounded as good when demod on redbook CD as the other gear noted above.

As for why, I leave that for you techno-nerds to ponder. I enjoy.

Chu Gai

08-10-09, 03:19 PM

Fair enough. It doesn't bother you that you have to get up each time you want to listen to something?

Steve Bruzonsky

08-10-09, 03:30 PM

Fair enough. It doesn't bother you that you have to get up each time you want to listen to something?

I need the exercise!!!@@@

Chu Gai

08-10-09, 03:47 PM

What's wrong with going to the fridge? :D

Steve Bruzonsky

08-10-09, 03:50 PM

What's wrong with going to the fridge? :D

I need that exercise too but not the ice cream!!@@@

Brucemck2

08-10-09, 05:09 PM

It doesn't bother you that you have to get up each time you want to listen to something?

Steve, since it will play DVDs with FLAC or WAV files, you could burn a "best of" or "favorites" DVD with a large number of songs and not have to get up all that often?

You could even use a program like Izotope to upconvert to 24/88 or 24/96 ... now that'll get the objectivists going )=

oddeofile

08-10-09, 05:41 PM

Why the two seperate components? Combining them would eliminate the cable altogether, which should sound even better. Have one or two digital inputs and one output and charge $4000 instead of $6000.

PS Audio had different ideas of how to proceed here. A stand alone CD Player or separate components. Since the PWD DAC will have a bridge inside optional to use multitudes of different types of inputs, including the ability to work through an NAS, and include its own Digital Lens on the bridge board, it made sense. They were looking at a far bigger picture.

The system works together like the dcs equipment does to work in a proprietary interface in the pure I2S mode direct from the native 16 bit or 24 bit format without 1. error correction circuitry on the transport mechanism, and 2. to keep the I2S data intact in the native mode straight through the proprietary HDMI connection into the PWD so it processes the data in native I2S without the need to incorporate the inteface upsampler/oversampling chip, direct to the DAC. Indeed, the PWD allows you to switch the interface/oversampling chip in and out of the circuit while music is playing in real time and it is a very obvious difference with the naticve mode being far superior. This is only possible in the native I2S mode to disengage the chip. That makes an incredible sonic leap forward doing so. The music is noticeably worse with the chip engaged than it is straight through. The PW Trannsport keeps that I2S interface without ever combining the separate signals into one and then splitting them apart, which is a large part of the improvements.

The Red Book playback is superb in native. I have never heard 16 bit digital sound this gloriously smooth, pure and without noticeable digital grit or grain ever. Vocals are just outstanding. Cympals, superb without the digital "splash".

But wait until you hear 24/172 Khz Reference Recordings HRX on this! It is one of only two disc drives in the world right now (the other being the Boulder) that will play these direct without a computer hard drive interface and they are just simply stunning. I have a comparison disc PS Audio sent me as a a Beta Tester for the combo that has the 16 bit track next to the 24 bit HRX track for easy comparison and even as outstanding as 16 sounds on these, the 24 bit version is pure joy.

Needless to say, there is a LOT more in the old 16 bit format and musicality there than I had ever heard before in CD. I real eye and ear opener.

I have heard the dCS Scarlatti and in my opinion the PWT/PWD on CD playback is somewhat more musical involving. I can not put it into words other than it just sounds, well, "right". I am NOT saying the Scarlatti was not superb. It is, especially on SACD which the PWT/PWD can not playback. However, what is striking is just how close 16 bit CD digital can sound to SACD versions in the native I2S mode. Shocking, in fact. Is it better? No, but so close you would be surprised.

Odd

oddeofile

08-10-09, 05:47 PM

Steve, since it will play DVDs with FLAC or WAV files, you could burn a "best of" or "favorites" DVD with a large number of songs and not have to get up all that often?

You could even use a program like Izotope to upconvert to 24/88 or 24/96 ... now that'll get the objectivists going )=

Currently, the PWT will not play FLAC files, only WAV. However, my understanding is PS Audio is working on the firmware to do so. You could transpose the files from FLAC into WAV on Audacity or the program of your choice to do so.

Odd

Chu Gai

08-11-09, 07:33 AM

Just curious, but if CD & SACD releases are mastered differently, how can they sound close?

audioguy

08-11-09, 08:53 AM

Just curious, but if CD & SACD releases are mastered differently, how can they sound close?

Because in audio terms, close is a "relative" word - not absolute. With current technology that has been developed over the last 25 years of the life of the CD, even relatively inexpensive CD/SACD/Bluray players (think OPPO) sound pretty good and maybe better than anything else at any price sounded 10 years ago.

I owned the dCS stack for a long time and it was certainly better than the player it replaced, but did it KILL it ? No it did not.

I'm not saying all CD players sound alike. I am saying that in my opinion, the differences get smaller and smaller and smaller.

I would also add (having owned -- and still do--- many PS Audio Products) that PS Audio marketing and the use of superlatives for his products in his ads is about as good as it gets!!

If I were to be able to get my hands on one of these new transports, the ONLY way I would initially evaluate it would be "blindly". I can't tell you how much money I have wasted buying audio stuff based upon reviews and other opinions only to have it installed in my system and not hear a difference even though I really wanted to.(I'm thinking of about 20 VERY expensive power cords I still own!!).

But, as Steve says, this may be the real deal. If for no other reason than it can play many of the new hi-rez formats!!

oddeofile

08-11-09, 05:37 PM

Because in audio terms, close is a "relative" word - not absolute. With current technology that has been developed over the last 25 years of the life of the CD, even relatively inexpensive CD/SACD/Bluray players (think OPPO) sound pretty good and maybe better than anything else at any price sounded 10 years ago.

I owned the dCS stack for a long time and it was certainly better than the player it replaced, but did it KILL it ? No it did not.

I'm not saying all CD players sound alike. I am saying that in my opinion, the differences get smaller and smaller and smaller.

I would also add (having owned -- and still do--- many PS Audio Products) that PS Audio marketing and the use of superlatives for his products in his ads is about as good as it gets!!

If I were to be able to get my hands on one of these new transports, the ONLY way I would initially evaluate it would be "blindly". I can't tell you how much money I have wasted buying audio stuff based upon reviews and other opinions only to have it installed in my system and not hear a difference even though I really wanted to.(I'm thinking of about 20 VERY expensive power cords I still own!!).

But, as Steve says, this may be the real deal. If for no other reason than it can play many of the new hi-rez formats!!

Indeed! And it is in the hi rez formats where the PWT and PWD really blow you away. Red Book is so musical, natural and with the warmth of analog, so much moreso that anyone thought in the Red Book standard. But the hi rez is stunning with a rightness to the musical event that moves one like the real thing. Very impressive, to say the least.

One must experience the hi rez playback ability to fully appreciate the combo in native I2S mode.

Odd

NIN74

08-11-09, 11:48 PM

But wait until you hear 24/172 Khz Reference Recordings HRX on this! It is one of only two disc drives in the world right now (the other being the Boulder) that will play these direct without a computer hard drive interface and they are just simply stunning. I have a comparison disc PS Audio sent me as a a Beta Tester for the combo that has the 16 bit track next to the 24 bit HRX track for easy comparison and even as outstanding as 16 sounds on these, the 24 bit version is pure joy.

Probably different mastering or maybe that the DAC do a very poor result with 16 bit. Because unless you listen to music at earbleeding levels in a extremely silent room, you don't need 24 bit. The 96 dB dynamic range of the CD is good enough.

oddeofile

08-12-09, 11:09 AM

Are you serious?? It has so much more to do with the micro details and low level information than it has to do with dynamic range in and of itself.

The PWT DAC does more for 16 bit CD than any other DAC I have yet heard.

You need to hear these before making such judgment calls. Unless you have heard them and spent time with them, all comments in theory are groundless.

Odd

mark haflich

08-12-09, 12:04 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-12-09, 12:16 PM

For $4K after a trade in, this pair is a steal.

Steve. Sarting to read this thread, I thought you might be the only one posting for a two page thread. at least now its 50% you, 50% others. You need to connect the two with the HDMI and set it to native.

Right now, I got some right upper leg bursitis - I hope thats all it is. Tough to get up and around. To use PS Audio's Perfectwave DAC I need to do bunch of moving stuff, crawling, connecting and reconnecting!!!
But I am considering.

Mark is talking about PS Audio's current trade-in deal of giving the full retail price up to $1,000 on trade-in towards either the PerfectWave Transport or PerfectWave DAC. Quite a deal. Trade-in details I think are at PS Audio's website.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-12-09, 12:18 PM

NIN is a subjectivist who tries to act like he's an objectivist. He only likes his music LOUD!!!@@@ Take him with a grain of salt.

oddeofile

08-12-09, 12:29 PM

NIN is a subjectivist who tries to act like he's an objectivist. He only likes his music LOUD!!!@@@ Take him with a grain of salt.

Thanks, Steve.

Yes, the trade in deal is a good thing and will end soon, so if you are interested, anyone, go get 'em now.

BTW - PS Audio's reference HDMI cables are sellings so fast they can't make 'em quick enough. I have 4 them on order that are shipping today but seems the current batch must be sold out already and Paul is having to air freight the next batch in otherwise it would be about 5-6 wks with ocean cargo to get here.

I am anticipating the new HDMI I2S12 quite highly, not only for the native I2S link between the PWT and PWD but also in my reference HT system connections. :D

Odd

mark haflich

08-12-09, 01:06 PM

If you trade in a MSRP of over $1K, you get $1K off. So trade in two $1K pieces and you get a $1K discount on each. Ifyour trade in piece is over $500 but under $1K, you get $500 off, so 2 pieces gets you $1K off on the package. Dalers have the same trade in deal plus you might get an additional discount so please go to a dealer. They need your business. The top of the line HDMI cable optimized as a connecting link for the twopieces is $500. PS has a cheaper cable for $200.

If the trade ins are not PS Audio pieces, the pieces must be in working condition and must include the remote and any other supplied accesssory.

PM Steve and I am sure he can supply you with the name and phone number of a dealer who will take very very good care of you.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-12-09, 06:47 PM

If you trade in a MSRP of over $1K, you get $1K off. So trade in two $1K pieces and you get a $1K discount on each. Ifyour trade in piece is over $500 but under $1K, you get $500 off, so 2 pieces gets you $1K off on the package. Dalers have the same trade in deal plus you might get an additional discount so please go to a dealer. They need your business. The top of the line HDMI cable optimized as a connecting link for the twopieces is $500. PS has a cheaper cable for $200.
.

Mark, have you demod or heard either the transport or transport DAC combo yet?

NIN74

08-12-09, 07:01 PM

Are you serious?? It has so much more to do with the micro details and low level information than it has to do with dynamic range in and of itself.

Wrong. Please read a little more how redbook works. You will NOT get more details with higher bits, you will get higher dynamic range (s/n). And the 96 dB range of a CD is good enough. Even is you have a rather silent room with 30 dB backgroundnoice, you need to play 96+30 = 126 dB, at listening position, and with normal speakers (88 dB) you need around 300,000 watt and a speaker that can do that. And one more problem, you will probably be deaf after that. :D

mark haflich

08-12-09, 07:16 PM

The problem is that in order to get 300,000 watts you need to go class B and as a purist I will only use a class A amp. Unfortunately your house would ignite and burn to the ground shortly after switch on unless you have a massive heat exchanger and a big mother heat sink. Fortunately living on a lake I could do this but I would face thermal pollution issues with the State EPA. Perhaps a cooling tower might work.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-12-09, 07:23 PM

The problem is NIN plays SO LOUD that he can't hear any difference in his source or material anyway. Its like living in the perpetuaL 70s DISCO.

mark haflich

08-12-09, 08:03 PM

Or marrying a Jewish 70s disco queen. Don`t you love me baby?

Steve Bruzonsky

08-12-09, 09:12 PM

Or marrying a Jewish 70s disco queen. Don`t you love me baby?

NIN would have married a Swedish Abba 80's Queen.

I married a 70s Catholic (later converted) non-disco Queen of Pets.

mark haflich

08-13-09, 02:23 AM

Ah shucks. You must be her lil puppy dog.

Chu Gai

08-13-09, 06:47 AM

Oy. I'm verklempt.

thebland

08-13-09, 07:20 AM

BTW - PS Audio's reference HDMI cables are sellings so fast they can't make 'em quick enough. I have 4 them on order that are shipping today but seems the current batch must be sold out already and Paul is having to air freight the next batch in otherwise it would be about 5-6 wks with ocean cargo to get here.
Odd

Please tell me you're kidding me...:D

Hey Steve,

Talked to Mark B. last night... Yes, I'll get him over here for a movie.

Car talk last night. I picked up a new car and Mark knows where to take it for some add ons. He is the car guy with the slickest of rides.

NIN74

08-13-09, 10:12 AM

The problem is NIN plays SO LOUD that he can't hear any difference in his source or material anyway. Its like living in the perpetuaL 70s DISCO.

No, I don't play very loud, but I do have the headroom to do it. Great if one wants good sound. :)

Steve Bruzonsky

08-13-09, 10:14 AM

Please tell me you're kidding me...:D

Hey Steve,

Talked to Mark B. last night... Yes, I'll get him over here for a movie.

Car talk last night. I picked up a new car and Mark knows where to take it for some add ons. He is the car guy with the slickest of rides.

I've been buggin' Mr B that he needs to get over to see your theater and Lumis!!!@@@

oddeofile

08-13-09, 10:49 AM

Wrong. Please read a little more how redbook works. You will NOT get more details with higher bits, you will get higher dynamic range (s/n). And the 96 dB range of a CD is good enough. Even is you have a rather silent room with 30 dB backgroundnoice, you need to play 96+30 = 126 dB, at listening position, and with normal speakers (88 dB) you need around 300,000 watt and a speaker that can do that. And one more problem, you will probably be deaf after that. :D

We're not talking about red book standard with hi rez, now are we? Hmmm....

I suppose you have not listened to a Reference Recording's HRX disc then, have you? Thought not or you wouldn't have said the comments you just made.

Odd

oddeofile

08-13-09, 05:51 PM

Please tell me you're kidding me...:D

Hey Steve,

Talked to Mark B. last night... Yes, I'll get him over here for a movie.

Car talk last night. I picked up a new car and Mark knows where to take it for some add ons. He is the car guy with the slickest of rides.

No, I am not Jeff. Remember, this unit uses the HDMI connection as a digital link like a regular RCA or XLR digital cable. Yes, there is a world outside Belkin.

And, yes, to answer your next question, regardless if you refuse to acknowledge it, they do make a difference. Some small, some larger, but yes, a difference.

I plan to report my findings in a week or so after mine arrive. I will also be A/B'ing the cable against my current cable in my HT and report any findings there. If none, easy to return the cable in 30 days. If not... then I am enjoying my system all the more.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-13-09, 11:09 PM

The past few days I have listened to a few Linda Ronstadt CDs (woops - the Gold CD ones) from mid-seventies, no disco --- wonderful. Sounded better than ever!

Tonight, I played the Ultradisc stereo SACD/CD of Patricia Barber "Modern Cool". OK. The SACD sounds very nice, as it always has. However, the CD on the PS Audio PerfectWave Transport was just better, and not marginally. Voicing was more microphonic and real, bass was more real life punchier, just all around.

Up until this PS Audio Transport, my audiophile friends have all liked me using Circle Surround Music mode instead of Stereo. This mode just adds a bit of ambience from the rear speakers and hasn't seemed to disturb or alter the front soundstage at all.

Well, last Saturday, Lon in the middle second (back) row preferred the Stereo. Tonight, playing cuts from "Modern Cool", I felt that Stereo was better, though the Circle mode was excellent. But the voicing and soundstage just sounded more real, the Circle mode felt like the soundstage was being unnecessarily widened a tad with the voicing being diffused a tad. If I didn't have one to compare to the other I wouldn't even know.

I will be doing more listening on Stereo vs Circle. But looks like the PS Audio Transport is so much more revealing that it brings out the Stereo soundstage to perfection and the Circle mode although excellent becomes a bit gimmicky in comparison.

Of course I am talkin' about when one is in the middle front or back row listening for music.

Also interesting is that with my Theta Compli on redbook I found myself using the CB3's center spread feature, which goes from 0 - 15, and a setting of 10, as sounding the best and most natural. But with the PS Audio, I just turn off Center Spread, having it on only seems to reveal the extra processing of the CB3 and I can actually hear and discern it.

Gee - looks like I may be moving towards getting a PS Audio PerfectWave DAC to use in Stereo (connected to my Theta Six Shooter), and with an external music server, in my future!!! Oh well!! I still have more listening and demoing to do before I get to that point.

I need to move some stuff around in my system and reconnect to do this - I guess on a weekend I'll enlist my daughter's boyfriend help for the grunt work given my current right leg probably bursitis or sciatica difficulties.

mburnstein

08-13-09, 11:13 PM

true, Jeff only lives 2 miles from me!

Steve Bruzonsky

08-14-09, 01:25 AM

Been listenin' to some old Neil Young CDs and they sound like never before!!@@@:cool::D In STEREO!

NIN74

08-14-09, 09:16 AM

We're not talking about red book standard with hi rez, now are we? Hmmm....

All I saying is that 16 bits is really enough at home.

thebland

08-14-09, 11:45 AM

true, Jeff only lives 2 miles from me!

Maybe see you tomorrow night at the dream cruise. I'm gonna shine up my new baby tomorrow afternoon. Gotta go to Murray's for car soap, etc.

sac8d4

08-14-09, 11:03 PM

Just an FYI for those that are interested, the PS Audio PWT and PWD have been reviewed here http://www.stereomojo.com/PS%20AUDIO%20PERFECTWAVE%20TRANSPORT%20AND%20DAC.htm/PSADUIOPERFECTWAVETRANSPORTANDDAC.htm and well be reviewed soon by marja and henk from 6 moons http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audioreviews.html

Steve Bruzonsky

08-15-09, 12:43 AM

Tonight listened to some Jacintha, Pink Floyd and Eagles "Hell freezes Over", all in Stereo, like listening to something brand new and so fresh and real sounding.
I heard stuff I've never heard before in the music.

I pulled the plug today and ordered the PerfectWave DAC.

Chu Gai

08-15-09, 12:57 AM

Apparently the bursitis has caused a heightened sensitivity in your hearing. Probably something about this in one of the House episodes. Objectively, that DAC is a turd :D

Steve Bruzonsky

08-15-09, 02:20 AM

Apparently the bursitis has caused a heightened sensitivity in your hearing. Probably something about this in one of the House episodes. Objectively, that DAC is a turd :D

Make fun of me when I'm down.

I do better working and talking and on my PC standing up.

I'm a stand up guy with stand up hearing.

House - that's funny. I think he started out as an objective troll on AVS and found his talents were to better use at the hospital.

mark haflich

08-15-09, 10:25 AM

Isn`t the term objective troll an oxymoron? A troll can`t be objective. A troll could be a theorist but not objective. Without beating it intothe ground, being objective depends on finding the truth. Theory often isn`t the truth.

Bulldogger

08-15-09, 01:09 PM

Maybe see you tomorrow night at the dream cruise. I'm gonna shine up my new baby tomorrow afternoon. Gotta go to Murray's for car soap, etc.

What kind of car did you get? I am always excited to see and hear about others cars. I do not like to buy them myself however:). Cheaper cars, expensive stereo and maybe Harleys, are more me.

Bulldogger

08-15-09, 01:15 PM

In summary - if you have a Theta Casablanca 3 with Extreme DACs, then you can forget about SACD and DVD-A, even if you have matched floorstanding speakers and amps all around for the best multi-channel sound, because redbook CD in stereo alone is better sounding than anything else, period! Its that good.

Try a Marantz SA-7S1 and then decide about redbook vs SACD. The Marantz is several levels above the Xtreme dacs and likely the Compli. I understand your position. Most of what I have is red book stuff. There are a lot of SACDs though, some very good recordings that I still love to enjoy. Too bad no currrent dacs can accept SACD over HDMI. For me if SACD is not better than CD then, you need a better SACD player.

Bulldogger

08-15-09, 01:16 PM

All I saying is that 16 bits is really enough at home.

What kind of player do you use or recommend?

oddeofile

08-15-09, 10:23 PM

Apparently the bursitis has caused a heightened sensitivity in your hearing. Probably something about this in one of the House episodes. Objectively, that DAC is a turd :D

Objectively, have you listened to this marvel? Thouht not. Nowhere do you mention your golden ears have heard the PWD, just suposition. What Steve describes is exactly what I and everyone else who has one has heard and hears with every disc.

It is frankly, a superb unit.

Steve, glad you finally did order the DAC. Wait until you hear this marvel! Unfortunately, it is back ordered so will probably take some time to arrive.

Odd

vancouver

08-15-09, 11:24 PM

Steve,
Just curious...why do you list the fact you use a $1000 power cable?

Steve Bruzonsky

08-16-09, 01:01 AM

Steve,
Just curious...why do you list the fact you use a $1000 power cable?

When you discuss a demo in your system, do you list your associated components and cabling?

vancouver

08-16-09, 01:14 AM

When you discuss a demo in your system, do you list your associated components and cabling? I do.

Never the cabling, no.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-16-09, 01:26 AM

Never the cabling, no.

Ah! I see in your profile you list "99% silver CAT cables".

Are those your video cables to your Plastma HDTV?

NIN74

08-16-09, 10:00 AM

What kind of player do you use or recommend?

I use a old DVD player. Works superb.

Bulldogger

08-16-09, 11:40 AM

I use a old DVD player. Works superb.

Got it. Any old dvd player will work fine.

Bulldogger

08-16-09, 12:19 PM

Steve, glad you finally did order the DAC. Wait until you hear this marvel! Unfortunately, it is back ordered so will probably take some time to arrive.

Odd

The dac has peaked my interest. ". As a music server, the PWD can access and control any compatible network source such as a network hard drive (NAS), or stream music directly off the Internet." The customer service, as well, has been first rate when I have called. I always like to ask technical question. When I can get those questions clearly answered, it is always a big plus. PS Audio has given me answers. One of the reason, that I blew another company off, Halcro, was that I could never get a damn answer to any of my questions in a timely manner! With PS Audio, same day or within 24 hours, I would get an answer. The PS audio forum is also a nice benefit. PS Addio stands behind their products. You will never have any problems getting repairs or warranty replacements. They are the best at this.

oddeofile

08-16-09, 02:25 PM

The dac has peaked my interest. ". As a music server, the PWD can access and control any compatible network source such as a network hard drive (NAS), or stream music directly off the Internet." The customer service, as well, has been first rate when I have called. I always like to ask technical question. When I can get those questions clearly answered, it is always a big plus. PS Audio has given me answers. One of the reason, that I blew another company off, Halcro, was that I could never get a damn answer to any of my questions in a timely manner! With PS Audio, same day or within 24 hours, I would get an answer. The PS audio forum is also a nice benefit. PS Addio stands behind their products. You will never have any problems getting repairs or warranty replacements. They are the best at this.

Glad it has. You need to audition it. Hopefully, there is a dealer near you that has one to listen to. It is superb. So musical it is scary. Never heard digital sound like this before in over 25 years of listening to optical reproduced digital or digital in general. There is so much more in 16 bit red book digital than ever, still, and hi rez is incredible (listen to an HRx disc from RR).

PS Audio does have C/S second to none. They believe that when you buy their equipment you become part of their family. A really nice belief which I happen to agree with.

Odd

vancouver

08-16-09, 02:48 PM

Ah! I see in your profile you list "99% silver CAT cables".

Are those your video cables to your Plastma HDTV?

Nope I use mono price HDMI...I only bought those to support the owner of HTGuide.com (he owns cat cables) when his sales were low. The business runs the site/forum which is one I enjoy so I felt like helping out.

Ill be the first to say they made no noticable difference over any other coax cables I own...but they do look nice.

I should actually update my profile since I recently sold some and gave some away when I switched to balanced XLRs (which made no difference over coax either :)

NIN74

08-16-09, 04:53 PM

Got it. Any old dvd player will work fine.

Well almost. The difference between normal CD/DVD players are so small that most will do fine.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-16-09, 05:12 PM

Well almost. The difference between normal CD/DVD players are so small that most will do fine.

So why are you wasting your time "trolling" us in this thread when you don't believe the CD transport, or CD player plus DAC, can make much of a difference anyway?

Bulldogger

08-16-09, 05:24 PM

Well almost. The difference between normal CD/DVD players are so small that most will do fine.

Got it. Now you can move along.

tyree91

08-16-09, 09:07 PM

What type of interface does the DAC have? Do you have some handheld remote that tells you what you are accessing on the network or do you need to read this out on the DAC's display face?

NIN74

08-17-09, 06:27 PM

So why are you wasting your time "trolling" us in this thread when you don't believe the CD transport, or CD player plus DAC, can make much of a difference anyway?

I'm not trolling, and I say it again, this is a DISCUSSION forum, if you don't want any argument against your belief, this is probably not the best way to post them. :)

Steve Bruzonsky

08-17-09, 06:50 PM

I'm not trolling, and I say it again, this is a DISCUSSION forum, if you don't want any argument against your belief, this is probably not the best way to post them. :)

Reread my first post and title of this thread and then see if you have said anything along the lines of what I asked for.

Start your own thread "All CD transports sound the same to me because I have a loud lo fi system". I frankly am not interested.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-17-09, 08:34 PM

NIN,congratulations. You now have your own thread to post your thoughts on here at this forum so you don't have to interlope in this thread. ENJOY!

Steve Bruzonsky

08-18-09, 01:56 AM

Don't laugh, but Blood, Sweat & Tears 3, a dual SACD/CD Ultradisc, sounds fantastic in stereo.

Chu Gai

08-18-09, 07:41 AM

If you enjoy BST, you might enjoy Al Kooper's I Stand Alone.

NIN74

08-18-09, 04:17 PM

Reread my first post and title of this thread and then see if you have said anything along the lines of what I asked for.

I did do that. Said that subjectly, the difference between transports today are zero.

Start your own thread "All CD transports sound the same to me because I have a loud lo fi system". I frankly am not interested.

Cool, you can hear how something sounds just by looking at pictures. Probably the same special skill you use to "hear" all those differencies between transports and DAC's. ;)

Steve Bruzonsky

08-18-09, 04:44 PM

I did do that. Said that subjectly, the difference between transports today are zero.

Cool, you can hear how something sounds just by looking at pictures. Probably the same special skill you use to "hear" all those differencies between transports and DAC's. ;)

In your LOUD system you can't hear differences. Get a better system and better speakers and better room and maybe you will.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-18-09, 04:45 PM

If you enjoy BST, you might enjoy Al Kooper's I Stand Alone.

I agree. Al Kooper was BST's initial lead singer, prior to David Clayton Thomas!!!@@@

NIN74

08-19-09, 08:56 AM

In your LOUD system you can't hear differences. Get a better system and better speakers and better room and maybe you will.

Interesting that you say something like this when you have not heard it. But I would guess that "audiophiles" don't need to hear it, they just need to "know" when something is better (=more expensive). :D

jbryngelson

08-19-09, 11:52 AM

Interesting that you say something like this when you have not heard it. But I would guess that "audiophiles" don't need to hear it, they just need to "know" when something is better (=more expensive). :D

How often have you done an A/B test of various gear? Just curious. I ask, because I continue to be AMAZED at the differences in things that should not be different in the Audio/Video world.

DVD Players, CD Players, Amplifiers, PreAmplifiers.

Everytime I put the time and effort into my own research, I come out amazed and suprised at the vast differences. Usually, the more expensive a device the higher the performance, but not ALWAYS.

I would say ALWAYS there is a piece that performs 90% or so of the performance of a device 2-5x its price. I have always found that to be the case.

So, what transports have you A/B tested, and found no difference in??

Jeff in Detroit

Raul GS

08-19-09, 01:13 PM

How often have you done an A/B test of various gear? Just curious. I ask, because I continue to be AMAZED at the differences in things that should not be different in the Audio/Video world.

DVD Players, CD Players, Amplifiers, PreAmplifiers.

Everytime I put the time and effort into my own research, I come out amazed and suprised at the vast differences.

I'm curious, how often do you carry out this comparisons in a level matched, DBT manner? Although there are some differences with some electronics, they can generally be explained. However, you suggest that there are "vast differences" between the above. Assuming they are all working under correct parameters (i.e. not distorting the signal in some form), it will be very interisting if you can tell vast differences between them. Level matched, DBT would be easy to accomplish with that degree of differences. I would like to read more about your comparisons.

Thanks

tyree91

08-20-09, 12:00 AM

I'm curious, how often do you carry out this comparisons in a level matched, DBT manner? Although there are some differences with some electronics, they can generally be explained. However, you suggest that there are "vast differences" between the above. Assuming they are all working under correct parameters (i.e. not distorting the signal in some form), it will be very interisting if you can tell vast differences between them. Level matched, DBT would be easy to accomplish with that degree of differences. I would like to read more about your comparisons.

Thanks
I'm sure Steve would like to cease any discussion of DBT in this thread. It's not welcome here.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-20-09, 12:41 AM

Raul, please start your own thread re level matching and dbts of cd players. Then you can start asking Mr NIN who hears CD players basically sounding the same how he level matches and dbts HA!@@@

Bogney Baux

08-20-09, 04:52 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-20-09, 07:53 PM

Steve,
I started a thread on the PS Audio site. Any CD that is recorded with Pre-Emphasis makes the digital out not compatible with my D-A converters. My Audio Aero looses lock and my Ps Audio Superlink is severely distorted. So far no one else has duplicated my findings. Maybe you could check on your PWT?

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/forum/viewthread/415/

I don't have any BID CDs. WOOPS!!!

I do have some classical but its Telarc, XRCD and some other stuff.

Are you sure your BID aren't only SACD without any standard stereo CD? Check on this.

Bogney Baux

08-20-09, 08:41 PM

Those are Bis (http://www.bis.se/index.php) CDs purchased in the 80's when Pre-Emphasis was more common. If you are at all curious, I could send you one. PM me your address if interested.

jbryngelson

08-23-09, 10:31 AM

My research is not as scientific as DBT. Simply putting a different component into my system, taking my components and putting it into another system, and listening to the change. I have done this with amplifiers, cd players, PS3 - PCs as transports, and I typically find a significant difference in the sound. For example, the PS3 does not sound nearly as nice playing a cd as my Sony 7000 dvd player. Thought it would be the other way around. No need to Double Blind. Every time, I will use my RS-SPL meter to verify things are at the same level, within one or two DB. The differences I hear are not attributable to a variation in SPL.

Just asking, as you made the classic "They all sound the same now" statement, so I wondered how you undertook this fun aspect of the hobby.

mark haflich

08-23-09, 11:51 AM

NIN74

08-23-09, 03:29 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-23-09, 03:31 PM

Sorry, that kind of test are not saying anything that can be used as facts. It is a fun test for you but don't really say anything if there is really a audible difference.

As the thread about your "GURU" speakers shows, you know nothing aboutg facts@#

oddeofile

08-23-09, 09:19 PM

There is a very fundamental difference between the PS Audio transport and others. The disc is read and stored, it is completely buffered, This i think would eliminate all playback judder and judder is clearly discernable when listening.One can readily but i suppose subjectively hear decreases in the degree of judder. Also the transmission means between the ttansport and Dac are clearly discernable and other specialty transport manufacturers are reportedly coming out with machines using the same transmission technology as PS Audio.

Yes. And the use of the proprietary HDMI I2S connection with the I2S12 cable is revelatory. The system sounded superb with my original HDMI cable but swapping it out for the astoundingly good I2S12 was instantly in a whole different ballgame. The difference is like watching a H.S. basketball game vs. the NBA finals. No contest. I have never heard digital in all the 24 years of listening to optical based digital reproduction and the 39 years of being an audiophile, have I ever heard anything like this before.

PS Audio has raised the bar in digital optical playback with this system well beyond anything I have heard. With the abilityt to use the upcoming lens or bridge to gap in for those who like their digits streaming from their computer or NAS will go ape over this. And, they should.

Well done, PS Audio. For those naysayers, I suggest before you pan something you open up your world and actually listen to something before poo-pooing it as heresy.

audioguy

08-23-09, 10:08 PM

Assuming one was using a DAC not made by PS Audio, why would the new PS Audio player sound different than any other server based product where the data (music) is not played in real time but is read and re-read as many times as necessary until a bit perfect copy on the hard drive exists. Then play it through a DAC that has it's own clock (e.g. Benchmark or a number of other similar DAC's) and, presto, great sound -- no jitter.

Based upon my own experience and those of at least Robert Harley, server based music systems sound as good or better than the best transports.

Is PS Audio doing something (different) in the reading/writing process that would cause you to hear this new remarkable sound??

Chu Gai

08-24-09, 08:15 AM

jbryngelson

08-24-09, 05:47 PM

The RS SPL meter is an inadequate device for the purposes of establishing the 'same level' when doing such comparisons. Much better would be to use a multimeter to measure the voltage at the speaker terminals using something like a 1 kHz test tone that you burned onto a CDR.

I agree, and disagree.

Yes, it would be more accurate to use a multimeter to measure voltage output at the speaker terminals, along with identical source test material. My nature is to be fairly analytical, but - - - -

NO - The use of a SPL meter is quite good. To say I did not properly hear the differences because I used a SPL meter is absurd. This is a HOBBY for me.

I guess I could argue that all of this is mute unless we are hardwiring our central nervous systems, and measuring the amount of voltage our pleasure nerves are giving off when listening. Or maybe we just look for the goosebumps. No bumps - CRAP! Little bumps - good. Big bumps everywhere - STATE OF THE ART.

Jeezzz, I am all for lets work to get our systems to sound the best they possibly can, buy really. Using the RS SPL is Crap? Really?

Over the top.

jbryngelson

08-24-09, 05:51 PM

Brucemck2

08-24-09, 06:06 PM

You get truly accurate results only if you stick the two probes of the voltmeter into your ears.

oddeofile

08-24-09, 06:31 PM

I agree with Steve and Jeff. Who gives a hoot if its within a quarter millivolt! One can tell very quickly with a reasonable SPL check between two components if they are as good as the PWT/PWD are. My previous reference was blown out of the water when checked that way. No contest.

And, when I installed the I2S12 HDMI cable, the distance between the PWT/PWD and other components I have heard is so vast its like being on opposite ends of the galaxy. I kid you not. The PWT/PWD/I2S12 cable comination is purely stunning in the native mode on both Red Book CD and Hi Rez wave files. Hi Rez files such as R/R HRx will blow your mind with this combination.

The combo was designed with the I2S12 cable and the differences between its inclusion and every other HDMI, coax or XLR cable I inserted was anything but subtle. Cold, right out of the box, it simply was in a whole different league of play.

Is it the best? Well, that is a relative term to everyone and different to each person's viewpoint. Certainly, in my experience I believe it to be the best digital set I have yet heard. Have I heard them all? No. Would HP probably find nits to pick? Sure. Nothing is perfect. However, these get more colors in the right places in a paint by numbers picture with the right shades of color than any other component I have listened to in over 39 years in this hobby.

They are that good and I challenge anyone who naysays them to take a good honest listen in comparison with their reference equipment and then pass judgement. If not heard, then until you do, anything you say is without merit, like reviewing a movie before actually watching it, or food without actually going to the restaurant, ordering it and trying for yourself. You have no basis for opinion until you spend time with it and truly hear how superb they are.

Chu Gai

08-24-09, 06:35 PM

I agree, and disagree.

Yes, it would be more accurate to use a multimeter to measure voltage output at the speaker terminals, along with identical source test material. My nature is to be fairly analytical, but - - - -

NO - The use of a SPL meter is quite good. To say I did not properly hear the differences because I used a SPL meter is absurd. This is a HOBBY for me.

I guess I could argue that all of this is mute unless we are hardwiring our central nervous systems, and measuring the amount of voltage our pleasure nerves are giving off when listening. Or maybe we just look for the goosebumps. No bumps - CRAP! Little bumps - good. Big bumps everywhere - STATE OF THE ART.

Jeezzz, I am all for lets work to get our systems to sound the best they possibly can, buy really. Using the RS SPL is Crap? Really?

Over the top.

If it's a hobby, why even both with an SPL meter? Just ask a friend to ballpark it for you with his ears. And yes, it is crap for the purposes you want to use it. It lacks both the accuracy and precision needed to set the levels sufficiently close.

oddeofile

08-24-09, 06:49 PM

Gee, if it sucks so bad, why do all the HT people use it to level match a system speakers for surround??!!!

Steve Bruzonsky

08-24-09, 07:03 PM

OK folks.

By the way, over the years, I have used both methods. As well as my ear and brain simply playing music and knowing how my system sounds.

Chu, when you're in Phoenix, please bring all your objective gear and we will AB to your heart's content - so long as you help with reconnecting everything as needed, I can't bend and stoop like I used to.

I pronounce the Radio Shack meter vs the voltmeter argument closed.

Please take it into a separate thread if you like to discuss further.

Its time for this freight train of a thread to go forward again and not sideways towards derailment.

Thanks.

amirm

08-24-09, 08:47 PM

Then play it through a DAC that has it's own clock (e.g. Benchmark or a number of other similar DAC's) and, presto, great sound -- no jitter.
If it has its own clock, then over time, it will drift away from the source. If it runs too fast, it will get ahead of the source and has to make up samples. If it runs too slow, then you will incur more and more delay. In case of video, this means loss of audio/video sync.

Translation: the DAC cannot run its own clock indpendently if the source unless it can be the master using a special interface -- not the standard interconnects we use (S/PDIF, HDMI, etc.).

oddeofile

08-25-09, 11:58 AM

Sorry to derail your legit Topic Steve: I have a friend who will be testing - a/b listening to the PS Audio Perfect DAC and Transport later next month. I hope he is happy with my SPL meter assistance.

I might bring a Voltage Meter just in case he wants to REALLY listen to it.

LOL - Havin fun in Detroit!

Jeff

Jeff, good luck with the test and let us know as soon as you have ideas. I am most interested as the combo has bested everything I pit against it.

However, to take it to it's limit you must use the I2S12 HDMI cable to really make the PWT/PWD shine. I thought very highly of the combo with my older HDMI cable until I installed the I2S12. Cold, right out of the box, that cable took the PWT/PWD to another universe it was such a large difference. Yes, cables do make a huge difference (and at times not, depending on many factors). In this case, it is essential. I think the combo should be shipped with the cable, honestly. At that point it ceased being excellent and just blew my brain, socks off, and made me fall out of my chair. I need dental work now to correct my jaw positioning since it dislocated it when my jaw hit the floor and continues to with each CD and hi rez disc I put in the drawer.

Don't believe me? Order one on a 30 day in home trial and I all but guarantee you'll be saying the same thing if you own both the PWT/PWD together. You won't be sending the cable back.

Chu Gai

08-25-09, 05:17 PM

Does the I2S12 have something to do with the DAC's native mode?

oddeofile

08-25-09, 05:26 PM

Does the I2S12 have something to do with the DAC's native mode?

Not sure what you mean by that. The I2S12 is the best HDMI cable I have ever encountered and the PWT/PWD were designed with it as the best HDMI cable to get the most out of the combination in native mode and boy does it ever! They are totally different sounding and incredible with this cable in the HDMI connection. Nothing I have tried other than this cable comes close. It is amazingly improved.

Chu Gai

08-25-09, 05:42 PM

So, in your personal estimation, would you say that running native mode results in the most satisfying musical experience for you?

oddeofile

08-25-09, 05:49 PM

So, in your personal estimation, would you say that running native mode results in the most satisfying musical experience for you?

Absolutely, without question. Bypassing the upsampling chip required in all other systems makes the difference here in a huge, musically natural way. It is amazing what happens when one flips between native and all other modes. Immediately the sound becomes compressed, lifeless and sounding like digital reproduction. The amazing part of this is that even upsampled Red Book to 24/192 sounds worse than native mode does! It sounds artificial and brighter, thinner overall. The music is just so natural and, well, "right" in native mode. That is what is most surprising about this and a real eye, or ear opener, for me, at least. Shocked me to my roots. You would never even begin to expect that.

Native mode on hi rez material like RR's HRx discs is beyond words.

Chu Gai

08-25-09, 06:07 PM

Well your findings are then consistent with MillerAudioResearch's findings when they examined the DAC in all its modes. They found what appears to me to be 'false images' present in the native mode.

For example, the graphs below are of
192kHz/24-bit Distortion at 20kHz - Native Mode
192kHz/24-bit Distortion at 30kHz - Native Mode
192kHz/24-bit Distortion at 40kHz - Native Mode
respectively.

150894

150895

150896

It would therefore appear that not only are you getting what's on the disk, you're also getting additional material that was never on the disk. Similar if you will to what happens with various non oversampling DACs. Has PM commented on this at all?

Steve Bruzonsky

08-25-09, 07:20 PM

Chu, you're saying that NATIVE MODE produces great sound from:

Chu Gai

08-25-09, 07:24 PM

Isn't he homeless or something?

Steve Bruzonsky

08-25-09, 07:25 PM

I don't have the PerfectWave DAC yet to comment on how it sounds.

I can only say how marvelous the Perfectwave Transport sounds in combo with my Theta Casablanca 3 Extreme DACs.

Chu Gai

08-25-09, 07:27 PM

Well, given the above Steve, should you buy it, you'll know objectively why you might like it subjectively :D

Steve Bruzonsky

08-25-09, 07:31 PM

Well, given the above Steve, should you buy it, you'll know objectively why you might like it subjectively :D

Sort of like having "false gods". Its just gotta be better. HA!!!

Chu, for those of us not as technical as some of us, how about explaining a wee bit about "false images" as it pertains to DA conversion in audio,
and on what DACs this has been shown as a concern and how upsampling lessens or alleviates "false images". Thanks.

Chu Gai

08-25-09, 07:51 PM

Maybe tomorrow.

Chu Gai

08-27-09, 09:46 AM

I'm not a digital expert, Steve, but I'll give it my best layman's explanation of what I think is going on here. Oddeophile has stated that in general the hi-rez disks sound better. Whether that's because the mastering is different (not unusual), or because of level mismatches (to do really critical comparisons, you've got to get the levels matched to within 0.1dB or better...can't do that with a RS SPL meter...can with test tones and a cheap multimeter), or maybe some combination of the two, is really hard to say. BTW, sorry for getting somewhat objective here. I honestly don't mean to derail your thread or take away from your pleasure with the unit.

However, one thing was clear from Oddeophile's postings. The difference was night and day if one used the PSA DAC in native mode. So, let's let that subjective impression stand as unimpeachable. Obvious. Can't mistake the difference.

If so, what could possibly account for this? From the graphs I provided above, which came from MillerAudioResearch, we have various data where they pumped a signal (20kHz, 30kHz, 40kHz) into the DAC and observed what came out. Simple enough I think. What we find though is that not only do we see the original signals, we also see artifacts. Some occur above the fundamental. Some occur below. Those that occur sufficiently below, if they're strong enough, are audible. Now if you're getting out more than you put in, it's reasonable to characterize this as distortion products. Distortion can be pleasing or not. That's a judgement call for the listener. However, it appears to be clear that native mode can by no means considered to be a faithful representation of what's on the disc in the first place. It has become embelished.

Now, whether this is occuring because PSA has chosen to not properly implement things like the anti-imaging and anti-aliasing filters I cannot say for sure. The results though are relatively consistent with what many call Non-Oversampling DACs. Examples of those would be some products from Audionote (I think that's the name) or perhaps Scott Nixon's offerings. Regardless of the explanations, philosophies, or whatever offered in products such as those and this one too, the end result is that images which were never present to begin with, now occur in the audible portion of the spectrum. Kind of like the movie Multiplicity!

Whether this explanation is sufficient or not, I leave it up to you. Perhaps others will expand more upon it if need be.

RUR

08-27-09, 10:47 AM

Those that occur sufficiently below, if they're strong enough, are audible.
Chu, do we know that these are audible? I'm no digital expert either, but I should think that the answer is "yes", or Miller would not have failed the UUT.

/Ken

Chu Gai

08-27-09, 02:29 PM

Chu, do we know that these are audible? I'm no digital expert either, but I should think that the answer is "yes", or Miller would not have failed the UUT.

/KenMiller expects certain things and certain performance criteria. I 'think' it's based upon an overall assessment of products that they've measured over the years. I also think it has to do with how things were intended to work. I seem to recall a statement somewhere at milleraudioresearch.com to that effect.

But if you look at the three graphs, you'll see that what I call the spurious peaks occur at what appears to be very signficant levels compared to the fundamental. Then when you figure that if you had musical information in the hi-rez that occurs at 21, 22, 23... and all the little fractional areas in between, I think it becomes clear that you'll get varying amounts of spuria varying both in location and amplitude. I'm quite certain that Oddeophile's assessment is correct. He says it's an improvement. I simply say it's different and I'd rather not make a philisophical or subjective assessment. That's for the individual to decide for themselves.

I'm sure over PSA's site they'll talk about thihgs like how good it is in the time domain and all that good stuff. Regardless of what they say, the graphs seem to indicate what's going on.

mrtybalt

08-27-09, 03:09 PM

In discussions with the folks at PS Audio I was told the units tested by Richard Miller were early beta samples. I expect Paul McGowan will post something here to respond.

oddeofile

08-27-09, 03:15 PM

In discussions with the folks at PS Audio I was told the units tested by Richard Miller were early beta samples. I expect Paul McGowan will post something here to respond.

That is my expectation somewhere and what I know of the R.M. units they tested. Further, during the middle of the Beta Test phase all of us Beta Tester's recieved all new DAC panels for the PWT which improved the sonic performance from excellent at the beginning to superb.

If there are artifacts involved somewhere, I can not hear them at all on any music played. Indeed, if there were artifacts present in the native mode, one would hear them especially in the upper frequencies of the musical spectrum. In fact, the PWT in native mode with the PWT driving it the upper frequencies are the clearest, cleanest, purest I have ever heard digital sound.

Chu Gai

08-27-09, 03:33 PM

Perhaps when he responds he'll be able to post similar graphs to indicate what's changed then.

I don't seem to recall reading anything on PSAudio's site that indicated they sent a beta unit. There was talk about various beta testers, but...

Steve Bruzonsky

08-27-09, 09:03 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-27-09, 09:06 PM

What is the procedure for Miller Audio Research to test a component? Do they get a component to test direct from the manufacturer? Are they paid by the manufacturer to test a component? Or are they simply some hobbyist group with their own axe to grind by "objectively" testing stuff they get ahold of? How come I never read about their test results in consumer audio and home theater mags? Please explain. Thanks.

Chu Gai

08-27-09, 09:16 PM

Paul hasn't posted here at AVS since I had him as my very first Special Guest in Oct 1999 when I started that feature when the Tweaks forum opened here at AVS Forums. Long time ago. He's too busy to get into shouting and fighting matches here.
So please don't go posting like he said he was gonna post here and then he doesn't show up, because he ain't gonna, like many companies that choose not to post on this forum.Well, I seem to recall him making some posts when people were discussing his Noise Harvesters. That was some after 1999. I know I caused you some grief there Steve, but you had some real funny and just out of there guests.

What is the procedure for Miller Audio Research to test a component? Do they get a component to test direct from the manufacturer? Are they paid by the manufacturer to test a component? Or are they simply some hobbyist group with their own axe to grind by "objectively" testing stuff they get ahold of? How come I never read about their test results in consumer audio and home theater mags? Please explain. Thanks.

1. There is usually a subjective and objective thing. The objective is done by AVTech. The subjective is featured in Hi-Fi News. Their products are used throughout the world.

2. AFAIK, yes.

3. AFAIK, no.

4. Both are done.

5. Well it's a British publication, Steve. Many countries have similar magazines and not in English. Also forums where although the language is different, the enthusiasm is equally as great.

6. I think I explained. If it's not enough, you can always direct an email to them.

NIN74

08-28-09, 09:38 AM

oddeofile

08-28-09, 11:06 AM

I recalled Paul had responded to the Miller tests some time ago in the PS Audio website when questions arose and here is his answer, edited to put in the relevent information:

"Our secret with this? There’s no secret and it’s pretty simple. Good engineering requires that we use the appropriate transmitter and receiver to make sure the signals are handled properly - and we do. Would this support a 20 foot HDMI cable? No, but anything under 2M is just perfect. I would venture to say the proof is in the pudding that what he says is based in ignorance. Just take a listen. If anyone thinks the PW series sounds like a $49 Wal Mart player while using I2S- then I need to head to Wal Mart as quick as possible! I had no idea they were selling state-of-the-art CD transports and DACS for $49!

One note that may be partly to blame for this person’s careless comment. The review and measurement by Paul Miller of the aliasing problems found in native mode over I2S. These units he measured were very early units that didn’t have the latest software. One of the things we were forced to do at that time was run our SRC at a higher rate than the chosen filter which caused some aliasing problems. This has since been corrected and all beta units as well as production units no longer display this problem.

Lastly, if you own a PWT/PWD combo - listen to any of the “better” S/PDIF or AES/EBU inputs compared to I2S. if what he is saying has any merit at all, the PW system would go from sounding great to awful with a touch of the input selector."

Now, this should make it rather clear, I think. The Miller units did not even come up to final spec used in the original Beta units, let alone the Beta units that were later updated with vastly improved DAC boards.

I think this can be put to bed now.

Next issue.

amirm

08-28-09, 11:22 AM

One note that may be partly to blame for this person’s careless comment. The review and measurement by Paul Miller of the aliasing problems found in native mode over I2S. These units he measured were very early units that didn’t have the latest software. One of the things we were forced to do at that time was run our SRC at a higher rate than the chosen filter which caused some aliasing problems. This has since been corrected and all beta units as well as production units no longer display this problem.
So they use sample rate conversion in "native" mode also? If so, why is it called Native?

Looking through the full set of measurements, the unit did far better in resample mode than native. So there may be something to his explanation but taken at face value, his explanation doesn't sound right.

Here is the explanation of Native mode from their web site: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/perfectwave-dac?cat=

"Native mode

We labeled the SRC bypass as "Native Mode" because it allows you to bypass completely the SRC's data manipulation and listen to the raw data as it is sent natively from the source. In most cases, Native Mode sounds far superior to any of the SRC choices, including 24 bit 192 kHz. "

One or the other explanation has to be right, not both.

Even if there was a bug that was fixed, I am always disappointed when I see equipment makers not use the same tools reviewers would use to evaluate their gear. Did they not test the native mode before sending units out?

If they did test, then do they have the measurements now?

oddeofile

08-28-09, 11:33 AM

So they use sample rate conversion in "native" mode also? If so, why is it called Native?

Looking through the full set of measurements, the unit did far better in resample mode than native. So there may be something to his explanation but taken at face value, his explanation doesn't sound right.

Here is the explanation of Native mode from their web site: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/perfectwave-dac?cat=

"Native mode

We labeled the SRC bypass as "Native Mode" because it allows you to bypass completely the SRC's data manipulation and listen to the raw data as it is sent natively from the source. In most cases, Native Mode sounds far superior to any of the SRC choices, including 24 bit 192 kHz. "

One or the other explanation has to be right, not both.

Even if there was a bug that was fixed, I am always disappointed when I see equipment makers not use the same tools reviewers would use to evaluate their gear. Did they not test the native mode before sending units out?

If they did test, then do they have the measurements now?

Naysay, nipick or get crazy all you wish. First, Paul is a class act. His history speaks for itself. How or where Miller got their sample from is irrelevant as I am almost certain PS Audio did not send it them for testing. Early samples are just that - early samples.

I believe you misread his comments. Read them again.

In the absence, just get a freaking sample of the system and listen to it. You then judge. So far, universally, the response I have seen is native blows upsampled away sonically. Period.

Now go listen to the units and give up the theory crap.

The only way you'll know is when you actually listen and test for yourself.

Where do you get your comments one or the other explanation is right, not both? Really now. Re-read your comment and Paul's once more. He clearly states - in most cases. So far, that has been 100% the case in each disc whether redbook CD or 24/96 encoded discs, HRx discs, etc. Getting the SRC chip out of the equation just opens up the music beautifully. However, he states "in most cases" as some folks originally felt early on maybe upsampled sounded better. If you like your music constricted, artificial sounding and brightened considerably, you'll love the SRC chip. If so, enjoy.

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 11:57 AM

oddeofile

08-28-09, 12:05 PM

I suppose they certainly will... in all due time. Right now, PS is so busy trying to get production units out to thos who have already ordered them they have no time to get units out to additional reviewers. Says something about the product, I dare say.

Give it time. All things come in time. Rarely, do new products just out on the street get into all the reviewer's hands. Especially, from small companies like PS Audio. And, products that are in high demand, like the PW series is.

Eventually, they will catch up on production and sales will drop as our frightfully fragile economy begins to unravel further into despair. At that point, I am sure there'll be plenty to go around.

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 12:37 PM

Gee, how long does it take to print a label and call for a pickup?

oddeofile

08-28-09, 12:46 PM

Gee, Chu, I don't know. Why don't you enlighten us? I think back ordered products should go to those who are waiting impatiently for their product they paid for, don't you? Or, heck, why don't you go ahead and order one and review it yourself? Gee, novel idea!

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 12:59 PM

Gee, if I had all MillerAudioResearch's equipment I might do that! At some point the lines can become blurry for enthusiasm and rationalization. Paul got out if what he wanted. A nice review that can generate sales. Now the ball's in his court with the measurements. It's time for him to man up and demonstrate that the beta unit tests are not indicative of current production.

oddeofile

08-28-09, 01:52 PM

If you're so hot to worry about specs (as specs rule right? Ha.), why don't you buy one, send it over to Miller and have 'em check it out if you are so concerned? If not, just wait, they'll come - in time. If something is selling like hotcakes, there's no need to live for your reviews to sell your goods. They sell themselves. Get the picture? Obviously not. Whatever floats your boat.

Just buy one and give it a shot. If you don't like it or the specs just don't measure up to your lofty expectations, send it back for a full refund. Sounds like a no loose proposition to me.

In the absence keep your peace. Put up, or shut up.

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 02:04 PM

We weren't talking about specs. We were talking about measurements. Understand the difference? If not go find out. Paul doesn't publish anything along the lines of MillerAudio Research did. I rather doubt he does do any measurements like those otherwise he'd have caught it. We was talking about measurements and how they might well corroborate your impressions of the substantial difference in native mode. As to put up or shut up, stick it pal.

oddeofile

08-28-09, 02:06 PM

Chu - I will as soon as you grow up and buy one to listen to it before you start talking about something you know nothing of. Subjective, my friend is LISTENING, objective is MEASUREMENTS. We are after all in a subjective forum. Start an objective measurement forum if you wish to be so childish.

Or did you suddenly forget the difference between subjective vs. objective?

One last thing - I will state the point. You, obviously feel necessary to personally attack. Stick it? Really now. Again - put up the subjective listening by obtaining a sample and reviewing it, or shut up. There is no room here or anywhere else for childish, idiocy. I abhore anyone who purports to throw themselves into a discussion whence they know nothing of - in this instance the pure, honest sound quality of this marvelous product. Now, when you do decide to grow up and actually buy one, then we'll talk. In the meantime, I suggest you lurk elsewhere.

I have heard so many fabulous components that spoke so musically well to those who appreciate them that measured poorly (i.e. tube amplification, for one). Measurements are, in truth, a very poor indicator of what something will eventually sound like in the real world application. No doubt you will dispute that. Go right ahead.

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 02:27 PM

Let me know the recipe for that PSA Kool-Aid when you get a chance. You'll note that I didn't question your subjective assessment. I believe it. The measurements I linked to strongly suggest that's the reason. In the absence of compelling information to the contrary, they stand.

oddeofile

08-28-09, 02:33 PM

Chu - agreed. That was just my point, my friend. And, I appreciate that. If you found otherwise in your subjective viewpoint, I would definitely listen and support your personal findings as well. We all hear differently and have different personal biases. No question about that! I, personally, am highly hoping you'll get a chance to take listen to the set either borrowed or purchased and what you think once they're in your system.

As far as you and I are concerned this is, to me, friendly differences of opinion and that is all. I have no personal grudge or negative feelings and I hope you understand that.

Now, let the show go on...

Best,

Odd

RUR

08-28-09, 02:39 PM

...as soon as you grow up...before you start talking about something you know nothing of...if you wish to be so childish...or shut up. There is no room here or anywhere else for childish, idiocy...when you do decide to grow up...I suggest you lurk elsewhere.
As an ambassador for PS Audio products, your technique leaves much to be desired.

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 02:39 PM

Geez, Louise oddeophile. I said from the get go I didn't discount your subjective experience!

oddeofile

08-28-09, 02:47 PM

Geez, Louise oddeophile. I said from the get go I didn't discount your subjective experience!

Sorry Chu if I came across "hard". My apologies to you for that. Must be having a bad day...

I appreciated that (and I hoped I got it across I did) in my last post. This is, after all, a hobby and supposed to be fun.

In actuality, Chu, folks might think we're disliking each other. I think that is far from the truth, at least from my position. I think quite highly of your posts and insights.

Odd

oddeofile

08-28-09, 02:55 PM

As an ambassador for PS Audio products, your technique leaves much to be desired.

Sorry about that... Like I said, this is a hobby and I think (definitely mself including in this club...) we go too far in getting things under our skin.

I really like the fact you are an innocent bystander and that rang a bell with me when I saw your post. Agreed. Sometimes, stuff gets too far and folks get hurt. A general apology to all is in order, and to Chu in particular, for that. :o

Guess I am just having a general bad day. Friday, to boot, too. Rats. :(

Backing up a step on all this tirade :eek: I think if the thread were set up as an objective test analyis thread and I posted all this stuff about how I felt it sounded great to my ears, folks would blow me a new hole. And, rightfully so since the thread was set up to discuss objective measurements of a particular component.

I was just getting off the cuff about so much banter about measurements in a thread about subjective observations how it sounds.

Sigh... goes to show, I am human and full of mistakes and errors in judgment just like everybody else... ;)

Chu, and others, try to have a nice day. We'll get to the bottom of this both sides, eventually. Time will tell. It always does. :D

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 03:01 PM

RUR

08-28-09, 03:04 PM

Sorry about that... Chu, and others, try to have a nice day. We'll get to the bottom of this both sides, eventually. Time will tell. It always does. :D
Good on you for being a mensch.:)

FWIW, I've already arranged for an in-home audition of the PWT next week. No PWD, but let's see what the transport alone does for me.;)

oddeofile

08-28-09, 03:14 PM

NP, oddeophile. I guess what I'd said a bunch of posts back somehow got forgotten. It happens especially during written communications. I am nothing more than curious, in an objective way, why your subjective impressions were so strong. The need for absolute level matching becomes progressively more important IMO the more subtle the differences are. In your case, IMO, it's fairly clear from your writings, that this is profound. So, objectively, if we can get a handle on what has to happen for such a strong positive response as yours, then someone might say, hey...I know a product that I think does something like that but it's more expensive, or maybe it's less expensive. PSA isn't all about subjective. They've got a link to a paper presented at an AES gathering or maybe it was a publication that spoke of a 'new' approach to DAC's, filters, and the like. In the end, your subjective impressions were crafted by objective approaches. The two meet in a product.
I consider the hostilities over and done with and due to nothing more than misunderstanding. Let's move on. So, Steve, what are you taking for your bursitis?

Chu, well said and VERY well articulated. I had not thought of it in those terms. In that, I must admit - mea culpa! Damn, I HATE when I'm wrong... :D

You are correct, Chu. The differences were profound and not subtle at all. In every way we describe sonic differences - micro/macro dynamic contrasts, the color of the instrumental texture - which, if I recall, has a great deal to do with the overtones being properly reproduced as well as the fundamental -, purity of the musical presentation as though layer upon layer of grunge, grit and grain has just vanished, musical layering and image separation, depth, image width, air, detail, you name it. In every possible different point of reference I use to listen to my system there was not a subtle change in any of them. That is what made me move the way I did.

You are right - the webpage posted the white paper on the new apodising filters which are the new wave in digital reproduction. The filters - there are, if I recall 5 of them, produce admittedly subtle differences compared to the huge one which is running it in ntaive I2S mode off the PWT and the inclusion of the I2S12 silver HDMI cable. That made a startling improvement which knocked me out of my chair.

No matter what was said, I hope that you understand I did respect you, always. Again, my deepest apologies if you or anyone reading the posts felt otherwise. :o

Thank you for a humbling experience.

Best,

Odd

oddeofile

08-28-09, 03:18 PM

I wanted to point out that I had been a musician for many, many years and taught private music lessons for about 10 years, as well. Having the insight of being a brass musician in all sorts of musical ensembles - band, orchestra, brass choir, jazz groups, etc. gave me the ability to listen through to singular musical lines and inner voices, the sonic textures of real instrumental lines, etc. Not for once will I say ever I am any golden ear or anything like that. I just feel that a musician or having been one gives those in this crazy hobby a bit more insight than maybe others.

It ain't easy, but is sure is fun.

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 04:39 PM

oddeofile

08-28-09, 04:56 PM

Oddeophile, there's no need for apologies. Communication via the internet is tough. It's quick but it's not one on one real time. Smilies cannot convey the body language, the intonation nor the rapidity that's necessary to achieve good understanding. The fact that the two of us were able to quickly iron out things speaks towards our desire to truly understand each other rather than going through respective talking points like politicians.

I read the paper. I'll have to reread it several times while sitting on the throne to get a better handle on things. In the meantime I'll check in from time to time here or elsewhere and look for appropriate updates.

You take care now!! And polish that brass ear :D

Chu, it may be more like a lead ear now...:D

I hear you. That white paper on the apodising (sp?) filters is a mother. I read it and thought - huh??!! I think I know what it is saying, but not sure. I am NOT technical (as everyone may have figured out by now) in any way or form. So... I think it discusses the reduction in pre and post ringing in the signal which causes a lot of the digital sound and hardening of the sonic presentation. I can certainly see, uh, hear - that point. But, in reality, I think the differences in the filters is slight. Having said that, I definitely prefer filters 1 and 2 on the PWD DAC. They are both apodising filters, one with a more brick wall cut off, the other more gradual.

Have fun. Don't sit there too long, though. :)

Thanks for feeling the same way. We'll probably end up good friends after this. I feel that way, already and felt that way before.

Enjoy!

Odd

oddeofile

08-28-09, 05:02 PM

One thing I know for sure is... I am good at knowing when I am wrong and noting when I am to those I have wronged in the process.

Having two x-wives will do that to you... :eek:

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 05:33 PM

I'm surprised you can afford anything after 2 of them.

oddeofile

08-28-09, 05:47 PM

Generally speaking... no. I can't afford to pee anymore. However, my father passed away this last fall and left a few bucks. Not much. But, I did decide to buy a few things I had wanted and when the PWT Beta Test was offered to me, I took the chance on them. Worked out well, I think.

However, the way CA is screwing it's constituency with taxes and with new tax changes being revealed almost daily from the supposed "no new taxes" budget release a month ago, I may have to sell my body to survive. Guess I will be starving then.

So far, an increase in tax liability by 10% - yeah, you read that right, plus a 1/3 reduction in the individual deductions, plus a lowering of the tax brackets (lower income - higher tax brackets), plus an increase in sales tax of 1%, plus a 100% increase in vehicle registration tax fee and you get the picture. Not intending to make political statements here in this thread, just giving you an idea what we are all up against in this god-forsaken state. We are being raped, blindfolded. I don't think anyone really knows yet what is about to hit. Personally, I think we should have tax revolts and riots on Sacramento on a huge scale. These idiots need to know just what they have done and what it will do to this state's economy let alone how many more won't be able to afford their homes, etc.

Sorry, just on my soapbox. I told you, a bad day.

Good thing not long until quitting time. Then I can go home, forget all the crap for a while (no news or all I hear is Kennedycare, more taxes, the like), put on a good movie, blow my house apart with movie soundtracks, and then calm to some late night, low lighting, intimate jazz. Miles, Chet, Dave, etc.

Sorry guys, you can skip the political rantings...

Steve Bruzonsky

08-28-09, 07:03 PM

Let's move on. So, Steve, what are you taking for your bursitis?

Just got done lookin' at the hot babes at your website. Didn't help the bursitis but I feel a lot better. HA!

(I am joking!):D:D

Steve Bruzonsky

08-28-09, 07:05 PM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-28-09, 07:10 PM

While I am still awaiting delivery of my PS Audio PerfectWave DAC, the past few nights I've been listening to some old favorites: Linda Ronstadt
Gold CD of "Hasten Down the Wind" and a CD just picked up, a 2007 Live album of Karla Bonoff, who wrote three songs on that Linda Ronstadt album. And in stereo with my Theta Extreme DACs, just sounds marvelous.
These Gold CDs are supposedly from the master recording and thus a better representation than regular CDs - Chu, you probably could give us objective info on that knowing your vernacular for little objective stuff. Please chime in.

I could be perfectly happy just using the Transport and never trying the DAC. But that ain't gonna happen.

Chu Gai

08-28-09, 08:00 PM

Chu, thats the sort of stuff I wrote back in my AVS moderating days years ago. You were paying attention!@
You had interesting people Steve. You also had candidates who were outright loons.
While I am still awaiting delivery of my PS Audio PerfectWave DAC, the past few nights I've been listening to some old favorites: Linda Ronstadt
Gold CD of "Hasten Down the Wind" and a CD just picked up, a 2007 Live album of Karla Bonoff, who wrote three songs on that Linda Ronstadt album. And in stereo with my Theta Extreme DACs, just sounds marvelous.
These Gold CDs are supposedly from the master recording and thus a better representation than regular CDs - Chu, you probably could give us objective info on that knowing your vernacular for little objective stuff. Please chime in.

I could be perfectly happy just using the Transport and never trying the DAC. But that ain't gonna happen.
Nope. But if you rip a song and send it to me I'll take a look at it.
I didn't figure you'd be able to step away from trying the PSA DAC. If you're not planning on trying the hi-rez stuff, you might want to audition one of those Non-Oversampling-DAC's I mentioned. Relatively inexpensive for a man such as yourself. Oh, and hope you feel better.

Steve Bruzonsky

08-28-09, 08:31 PM

OtherSongs

08-29-09, 12:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai
Let's move on. So, Steve, what are you taking for your bursitis?

Just got done lookin' at the hot babes at your website. Didn't help the bursitis but I feel a lot better. HA!

(I am joking!):D:D

Too doggone funny!

Cheers!

NIN74

08-29-09, 12:30 AM

The need for absolute level matching becomes progressively more important IMO the more subtle the differences are. In your case, IMO, it's fairly clear from your writings, that this is profound. So, objectively, if we can get a handle on what has to happen for such a strong positive response as yours, then someone might say, hey...I know a product that I think does something like that but it's more expensive, or maybe it's less expensive.

I can be a difference, or it can be nothing. There are people that say that a "better" (=more expensive) powercord makes a big difference, but I would still need a BT (levelmatched for CD players) to really know if its so. :)

Chris Gerhard

08-29-09, 08:11 AM

Steve Bruzonsky

08-29-09, 10:19 AM

Steve has offered an opinion that he believes this expensive PS CD transport used with expensive Theta CB3 DAC's makes CD sound better than SACD or DVD-A.
Chris

I said in my system using Theta Compli for SACD nnd DVD-A this is so.
That doesn't mean that if I used a different player for SACD or DVD-A that the same would apply.

Dotysystem

08-29-09, 01:36 PM

Chu, it ain't the Gold in Gold CD that I'm talkin about. Its the Mastering technique that Music Fidelity uses. Do we have an audio subject you know nothing about objectively my good friend??? I do know that these CDs sound fantastic and some "regular" CDs I have played (Best of Jackson Browne, Best of Linda Ronstadt) sound nice but not as nice.

A superior mix may lead to a superior cd. To see some theories on why bit-identical sound files can sound different on different pressed copies of the same CD release, see here:

http://www.iar-80.com/page57.html

It also includes theories as to why playing sound files from the hard drive (functionally similar to buffering) may sound better than the pressed CD.

Bob

drjstern

08-29-09, 02:11 PM

Probably different mastering or maybe that the DAC do a very poor result with 16 bit. Because unless you listen to music at earbleeding levels in a extremely silent room, you don't need 24 bit. The 96 dB dynamic range of the CD is good enough.

That's why vinyl always sounds so much better than the origional master.

audioguy

08-29-09, 02:27 PM

A superior mix may lead to a superior cd. To see some theories on why bit-identical sound files can sound different on different pressed copies of the same CD release, see here:

http://www.iar-80.com/page57.html

It also includes theories as to why playing sound files from the hard drive (functionally similar to buffering) may sound better than the pressed CD.

Bob

That was a fascinating article. Very interesting. Very!!

Dotysystem

08-29-09, 06:09 PM

audioguy

Over at the CD Info web site I once found a photo comparison of CDs pressed from the same stamper. One when it was new and the other after it was used extensively. Allthough the source tracks may be bit-identical the earlier pressing could be easier for the transport to read.

If you accept the author's theories on why a hard drive track sounds better than the same track on the original CD, it is plausible that source tracks from 2 different pressings of the same CD can be bit-identical while sounding different when played on the same transport. The CD player's servo and error correction could be exercised differently by each allegedly identical CD. The process of ripping the tracks on a PC for comparison asynchronously is not constrained by realtime error correction window considerations and effectively removes the player's servo (the player on which the difference was originally noticed) from the picture. The way the experiment is conducted can introduce its own error of sorts.

Chu Gai

08-29-09, 08:23 PM

A superior mix may lead to a superior cd. To see some theories on why bit-identical sound files can sound different on different pressed copies of the same CD release, see here:

http://www.iar-80.com/page57.html

It also includes theories as to why playing sound files from the hard drive (functionally similar to buffering) may sound better than the pressed CD.

BobTo see where this premise was tested please see The Numerically-Identical CD Mystery: A Study in Perception versus Measurement (http://www.prismsound.com/m_r_downloads/cdinvest.pdf)

oddeofile

08-29-09, 08:26 PM

Steve has offered an opinion that he believes this expensive PS CD transport used with expensive Theta CB3 DAC's makes CD sound better than SACD or DVD-A. He doesn't want any objective analysis of why this could or couldn't be possible and he has offered several examples of CD's he has listened to and a vague description of what he is hearing, none of it measurable by any method other than his ears. I sure have nothing to dispute what he is hearing and have no idea what the discussion that has followed his subjective opinion has to do with his subjective opinion.

I recall a recent thread at Steve Hoffman's Forum where the issue of whether an inexpensive SACD player playing SACD would sound as good as a very expensive CD player. My opinion is that I believe an inexpensive SACD player like the Oppo DV-980H with pure DSD over HDMI to expensive audio processing would beat an expensive CD transport or player connected to the same amplifier. I will never have the opportunity to do this comparison first hand since I won't ever own an expensive audiophile CD player much less an expensive audiophile CD transport. The majority opinion was that the expensive CD player beats an inexpensive SACD player. There are also some people that believe CD sounds better than SACD just as a matter of personal preference, although that is a tiny minority opinion.

I think it is great Steve is enjoying this excellent CD transport. I will stick with modest players like Oppo or budget priced Denon players but I like to read about other experiences.

Chris

Chris, good insightful comments. However, let me state as I have said many times before, trying to discuss this drive without having listened to it in your system or paired it with its phenomenal DAC via HDMI in native mode, is impossible provide conjecture on how it sounds or perferms. It is simply world class. Its like trying to say how you like the newest western film without ever having seen it but read about it in some posts someplace and state it can't be as good as an old John Wayne film because nobody is John Wayne, etc.

This is not meant in any way as an attack on you personally. It is a point to everyone who makes generalized statements about something that just can't be so because they don't believe it to be without ever having experienced it.

Try it and judge, guys. Then, formulate your opinion whether you want to stay with another player or system.

Its blown everything I have tried against it, away. the combination PWT and PWD with the I2S12 silver HDMI connection in native mode.

Thanks and best,
Odd

Steve Bruzonsky

08-29-09, 08:42 PM

To see where this premise was tested please see The Numerically-Identical CD Mystery: A Study in Perception versus Measurement (http://www.prismsound.com/m_r_downloads/cdinvest.pdf)

Now that Monk and his psychologist sessions on TV are ending, are we ready for "Chu", where a preeminent Psychologist debunks auidiophiles,
a reality show? I just wish the show would go on in its own thread where it belongs!

And Chu, you never answered my questrion about whether better mastering processes like on gold cds or xrcds may give us the better sound which I often hear with them? Certainly you must have something to say on this subject?

Chu Gai

08-30-09, 05:02 AM

Of course it may Steve. The question contains its own answer, no?

Chu Gai

08-30-09, 05:05 AM

Well, no one else is John Wayne, Pilgrim. :D

Steve Bruzonsky

08-30-09, 11:41 AM

Of course it may Steve. The question contains its own answer, no?

So Chu, since you agree that better mastering techniques with say gold cds and xrcds may give us better sonics, which ones are your favorites to listen to?

RUR

08-30-09, 11:55 AM

I'm not Chu, but I'll recommend Gary Karr's Adagio d'Albinoni (http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=9513). The Adagio's pace is uncharacteristically slow, but heartbreakingly beautiful. A superb recording.

sac8d4

08-30-09, 09:14 PM

Steve, glad you are enjoying the PWT, I am interested in the device as well, but I am more interested in the PWD in conjunction with the yet to be released Bridge. I wonder if the sound from the same recording in say FLAC; one from the PWT directly from the disc and the other being streamed from the PWD coupled with bridge, which will be preferred, If the latter is found to be superior, then one would think the PWT would be an unnecssary purchase. I'll be most interested in the results of that comparison when ofcourse the they can be compared.

Chu Gai

08-31-09, 08:41 AM

So Chu, since you agree that better mastering techniques with say gold cds and xrcds may give us better sonics, which ones are your favorites to listen to?
Personally, I have little interest in rebuying stuff I may already have whether it's on vinyl or CD. While I may enjoy Neil Young or the Eagles it's in strict moderation. Why not too long ago I wrote that while driving home one day, I once again heard Stairway to Heaven. I was so, so, phucking sick of hearing it played to death for years, that day pushed me over the edge. I went home, found my CD, and nuked it in the microwave. I have more interests in obtaining live concert recordings made legally or through the black market or even King Biscuit. To me, the imperfections tend to be trumped by the immediacy of the live event.
Back when OB used to post around here, he talked about getting that RR and master copies of Pink Floyd. He spoke about how good it was. I'm sure it was. But you know, I've seen Pink Floyd. Seen them at Hunter College, Carnegie Hall, Giants Stadium, Roosevelt Stadium, Nassau Colliseum, etc. If they played something like Careful With That Ax Eugene or Breath, it was always different. So were the crowds. While I'd also play the albums, there was nothing like the live event.

psaudio

09-01-09, 12:45 AM

Miller expects certain things and certain performance criteria. I 'think' it's based upon an overall assessment of products that they've measured over the years. I also think it has to do with how things were intended to work. I seem to recall a statement somewhere at milleraudioresearch.com to that effect.

But if you look at the three graphs, you'll see that what I call the spurious peaks occur at what appears to be very signficant levels compared to the fundamental. Then when you figure that if you had musical information in the hi-rez that occurs at 21, 22, 23... and all the little fractional areas in between, I think it becomes clear that you'll get varying amounts of spuria varying both in location and amplitude. I'm quite certain that Oddeophile's assessment is correct. He says it's an improvement. I simply say it's different and I'd rather not make a philisophical or subjective assessment. That's for the individual to decide for themselves.

I'm sure over PSA's site they'll talk about thihgs like how good it is in the time domain and all that good stuff. Regardless of what they say, the graphs seem to indicate what's going on.

Unfortunately the graphs are not really representative of what's happening in the production units. I wish they were and we wll have Paul Miller retest these. What we sent Paul were Beta units and those units had a problem (since fixed in both the beta and the production versions).

The filters associated with the DAC are specific to the sample rate and if they are not identical you get the artifacts you saw - especially in Native mode. This is because Native mode (at the time) did not "know" what the incoming sample rate was and would choose the wrong filter under certain conditions. This is what you are seeing in the graphs.

What we did to solve this is use the sample rate converter (SRC) to identify the sample rates and program the filter appropriately. So, in native mode, we use the SRC to set the filter's sample rate but we don't use the SRC for anything else. This gives the proper response and the graphs look perfect.

Sorry for any confusion. It's the problem with sending out a unit too early. When Paul sent us the results we saw the problem and fixed it immediately. No production units ever got out this way.

Cheers

Paul McGowan

AVItch

09-01-09, 10:19 PM

I’ve been following this thread with some interest. Oh, by the way, I am not an ambassador for PS Audio, and I don’t drink Kool-Aid - I prefer a good single malt and American hopped IPAs. Anyway, I am curious why this thread has become so….”quiet.” Doesn’t Chu Gai have any comments or even a rebuttal to Paul McGowan’s response? It was after all, Chu Gai who made a point in stating that the reason the PWD sounded so good was due to the anomaly associated with the Miller test.
I can attest to how great the PWD does sound. In fact, it sounds better than any DAC I have ever listened to. Again, I don’t drink Kool-Aid. I don’t take cheap shots at forum members either. That last comment is not aimed at Chu Gai. Several members seem to have lost their composure along the way in this thread. I for one am very glad to read Mr. McGowan’s reply and I thank him for taking the time to weigh in on this matter. If other members accept Mr. McGowan’s explanation – I’ll take liberty in using Chu Gai as an example (I hope that is acceptable, my esteemed community brethren, Chu Gai), then what are your thoughts (now) on why the PWD sounds so great? Please don’t leave me hanging…..
Thanks,
Ben

amirm

09-01-09, 11:10 PM

I will chime in as I also noted the anamolies in the test results.

But first, I like to welcome Paul to the thread and hope that he hangs around to answer questions on his products. I know it is hard for companies to participate as such as AVS allows fair amount of lattitude in how members take on the insiders :). But the benefits always outweigh any pain experienced in the outcome.

Back to the topic, Paul's new explanation make sense. In that regard, I accept that they have what seems to be the problem and fixed it. It would be nice to see new test results anyway to remove any doubt but I am not sure that is critical.

I am left wondering though, why the filter section was not tested before product was sent out. I would think in designing a DAC, that is the first thing one does with protoype products (i.e. objective tests). In this sense, I am left with less of a positive impression than I would be otherwise.

So that no one else comes out and thinks I am an objectivists, please save some typing :). I have taken on objectivists in this forum more than most. But fair is fair. The tests results showed real design errors and no amount of "go and listen" was going to make up for that. One loses credibility really fast if one sides with one point of view, no matter what the facts.

On the other side of the coin, Chu did appear to jump the gun by suggesting that the positive subjective results were likely due to anti-aliasing filter not working right. There simply was not enough foundation to support that conclusion as it is impossible to parse the preference expressed by users in this thread and translate them into measurements (or else, we could design the perfect product for them with just measurements).

Dotysystem

09-02-09, 06:50 AM

Assuming current units test perfectly, there have been claims over the years that AES/EBU and S/PDIF interfaces in general have issues. A few companies have implemented I2S interfaces specific to their products. There have also been claims that connector impedance and that product-specific optimum cable lengths exist. It is not surprising to me that a manufacturer can optimize an IS2 interface between its own products. As far as cable construction, it is not surprising that various HDMI cables are claimed to sound different from one another as subjectivists also make this claim for AES/EBU and S/PDIF cables and power cords. It is possible that another HDMI cable will be found to surpass the PS Audio cable in this application.

Chu Gai

09-02-09, 02:01 PM

Well then we'll see if they retest the unit and publish the results. OTOH, can PS Audio present their own measurements? But why oh why did you send them a beta, not ready for prime time, unit?

Steve Bruzonsky

09-02-09, 02:18 PM

Well then we'll see if they retest the unit and publish the results. OTOH, can PS Audio present their own measurements? But why oh why did you send them a beta, not ready for prime time, unit?

Chu, I luv ya. Sometimes you make valid points. But I confess it would be nice to know components you listen to and value, and you NEVER tell us anything. Certainly experience and what you listen with may tell us something to evaluate your info and opinions.

As a lark, I may change my signature to add the following line beneath my name:

CHU GAI'S AUDIO COMPONENT LIST - CLICK HERE

Of course, when they click, its blank, because no one knows whatcha got?

Care to educate us?

Personally, I think you simply enjoy the psychological and analytical side of AV gear and want to avoid discussing whatever you listen with. You might have some really good gear. I wouldn't be surprised! ANd its not like I bemoan everything you say. I actually took your advise the other year and got some really good whole house surge suppression!!!@@@

Chu Gai

09-02-09, 02:27 PM

How many years have I been telling you that, Steve?

Steve Bruzonsky

09-02-09, 02:39 PM

How many years have I been telling you that, Steve?

Actually, I think you responded the other year to my post discussing surge protection and I "listened" to you and a few others. However, the particular whole house surge suppression that you recommended I found wasn't up to stuff compared to what I got. Be careful on opening cans of worms my friend.

Don't you luv my new signature?

Steve Bruzonsky

09-02-09, 02:40 PM

Back to the points of this thread, please, folks.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-02-09, 02:47 PM

My PS Audio Perfectwave DAC should be here within a few weeks!!!@@@

I have two ways to set it up.

1) Use balanced interconnects direct to my front left and right Aerial 9 speakers.
I just disconnect the home theater balanced interconnects and connect the DAC interconnects when I want to play CDs, or later on, once I setup a music network, I want to play from that using the bridge and DAC interface. If I do this, I can move my front subwoofers a bit to fit in the transport and DAC on one of my Billy Bag endtables, but I would still require 2M balanced interconnects. Paul McGowan of PS Audio advises that the DAC has a differentially balanced output, too. Or if I'm lazy and don't wanna move the subs, then I can put the transport and DAC just to the left of my front left Aerial 9 speaker, but then I'll need 3M balanced interconnects or maybe a bit longer so I can reach to that front right monoblock amp.

2) Simply put the transport on top of DAC in my component racks, and connect balanced analog out to my Theta Six Shooter multi-channel analog preamp.

#2 is preferable from a practical standpoint. Then I don't have to disconnect and reconnect interconnects every time I switch from CD or music server to home theater.

I asked Mark Haflich about this today. Mark's years of experience is he likes using a really good preamp and feels my Theta Six Shooter certainly qualifies in this regard.

What do you think?? And why?

Dotysystem

09-02-09, 06:15 PM

Direct drive quality depends on adequate gain, impedance match and attenuator quality. If any of these are not up to snuff, you may prefer using a good preamp.

My player/DAC has a hybrid attentuator that is analog at moderate to high volumes and digital at lower volumes.The digital attentuator in my Transporter loses sound quality when set to less than 85% of maximum.

PeterS

09-02-09, 07:07 PM

Very interesting thread. Sounds like a good product. Would be interested in hearing it side-by-side the Black Box. Sounds like it will be pretty good in its price-point.

FrantzM

09-02-09, 08:03 PM

Very interesting thread. Sounds like a good product. Would be interested in hearing it side-by-side the Black Box. Sounds like it will be pretty good in its price-point.

Peter

Please don't go there... Price has NOTHING to do with performance.. The condescension is really not needed here.. From many accounts the PSA are stellar products...

I have raised my voice against this nefarious tendency in High End Audio to define Class Prices. the inference being that the more expensive product must be better than the least.. which we all know to be false...This "Price Class" structure might have made the fortune of several high End Audio manufacturers but not much in the way of advancement of the art of Music reproduction. Let take the product for how it performs not on how much it costs.. Please

Steve Bruzonsky

09-02-09, 08:04 PM

Very interesting thread. Sounds like a good product. Would be interested in hearing it side-by-side the Black Box. Sounds like it will be pretty good in its price-point.

Peter, are you affiliated with the company that does the Black Box?

tyree91

09-03-09, 03:38 AM

Dotysystem

09-03-09, 07:01 AM

#2 is preferable from a practical standpoint. Then I don't have to disconnect and reconnect interconnects every time I switch from CD or music server to home theater.

If PS Audio provided a pass-thru mode, you could use the DAC in direct drive mode and switch over to pass-thru for preamp output without constant cable swaps. This would be a reasonable feature for a unit that connects directly to an amp. Then it would be a matter of one additional set of cables and programming a master remote to switch between direct and pass-thru.

This assumes that direct drive will sound better. If it does not, then option #2. If direct drive does sound better, do you really have a choice or could option #2 be good enough?

PeterS

09-03-09, 11:34 AM

Steve,

Yes, indeed. Some new developments coming for the Black Box - should be before CES. Some third-party development - the benefits of an open system.

PeterS

09-04-09, 12:48 AM

Frantz

Not tryng to define a price-point breakdown for products. Merely trying to acknowledge a good product given its target market.

I think a better statement would be, "While price can indeed indicate improved quality, it is not always, or even regularly so." If someone, in this case PSAudio is able to produce a product outperforming products of a greater price-point, don't you think that that should be acknowledged?

AVItch

09-04-09, 12:31 PM

Hum...so Peter is indicating that the Black Box is at least in the same league as the PWD...What the heck is it and where can I learn more? Can someone comment - or leave a web address link to the product and/or reviews??

Thanks,

Ben
:confused:

RUR

09-04-09, 12:48 PM

http://www.bluesmokesystems.com/blackbox.htm

http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/blue_smokes_the_black_box_music_server_revealed/

PeterS

09-04-09, 01:11 PM

To clarify, the PS Audio piece is an all-in-one CE-type device.
The Black Box is a custom PC based around proprietary hardware and software.

The benefit goes to the PS Audio piece with regards to ease-of-use.
The benefit goes to the Black Box with regards to flexibility and longevity.

I can not comment on sound, as I have not yet heard the PS Audio piece. However, we have done blind A-B with other servers and high-end ($30k+) transports and beat them (others impressions), so I am fairly confident about our sound-quality.

Also, due to our design, we can play back any format, support any front-end you like and support files up to 192k/32 bit.

If you are in the Chicago area, I can easily arrange for you to hear it. We are always looking for feedback to improve the system.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-04-09, 01:29 PM

RUR

09-04-09, 01:39 PM

Peter, what relation are you to the company selling the Black Box system?

Per the Stereophile link I posted, Peter Sills is the designer.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-04-09, 02:08 PM

Peter, since you are the designer, per forum rules its not really appropriate for you to always interject in related product threads about your own product. Why doesn't one of your own happy customers start his/her own thread so you don't violate forum rules re commercial solicitation. Please.

PeterS

09-04-09, 07:57 PM

Sorry, not trying to interject. There are several of our customers on-line in AVS. If they want to jump in, I'm all for it.

If anyone has any questions, they can always PM me.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-04-09, 10:06 PM

Sorry, not trying to interject. There are several of our customers on-line in AVS. If they want to jump in, I'm all for it.

If anyone has any questions, they can always PM me.

Of course you were interjecting. You were jumping in a PS Audio thread to specifically promote the Black Box you are selling. Thats commercial solicitation. But I accept your apology if you avoid unilaterally doing this on your own in such threads to promote your own product in the future here at AVS.

AVItch

09-05-09, 12:56 AM

I'll be darn...I missed that one. The Black Box sounds like another great piece of digital gear. It's good to have a competitive market. It just means that once we read the hype; audition the piece; order the piece; wait on the piece; then receive it - it tends to be disappointing to realize that you really don't own the newest and greatest device. There's always something else out there. That's cool. It does wreak havoc on the old audiophile neurosis though!

Raul GS

09-05-09, 09:40 PM

Merely trying to acknowledge a good product given its target market.
You obviously missed Steve's and Frantz' point...the product is supposed to be excellent regardless of target market; i.e. it can go against the very best.

RUR

09-06-09, 11:29 AM

Subjective PWT+PWD vs. PWT+Berkeley Alpha may be found here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/PerfectWave-combo-vs-PWTBerkeley

Steve Bruzonsky

09-06-09, 11:35 AM

Despite my current handicap (torn right labrum at hip joint), on Friday I managed to redo my component rack to make room for the PS Audio Perfectwaves - Transport & Dac, which will be one on top of the other. will be just below the Theta Six Shooter multi-channel analog preamp. So short stereo pair analog balanced cables will connect the DAC to the Six Shooter. What's cool with the Six Shooter is I already have connected multi-channel cables, from Integra 9.8 (for HDMI 1.3 audio processing, for Blu Ray & HD DVD), and from Theta Compli (for multi-channel SACD and DVD-A). But those connections are single-ended. I will use the balanced connections on the first input to the Six Shooter for the DAC!!!

psaudio

09-06-09, 06:50 PM

Yikes. Sorry I haven't kept up with this thread as much as I would like to. I just didn't click on the email notification. I guess on the one hand the last thing I can afford is to spend more time on a forum (I spend plenty of time on our own) but on the other hand forums and banter like this are fun!

I just read a few of the posts after mine and wanted to answer a few specific questions. The first one was why would we send a seemingly defective unit to Paul Miller to measure. Well, there are a couple of reasons. The first is that while we have some pretty fancy test equipment including several Audio Precisions that we rely on heavily, we do not possess the Paul Miller jitter setup and can't really measure jitter and much that Paul does. I don't know of any company in the high end that does, but in any case, we do not.

So we first sent the unit to Paul to test - as a part favor to see what the jitter was - and as a "let's get the scoop on this exciting new product". This unit was released even before the betas went out so it was really early. Paul's a very busy guy and was kind enough to help us with the measurements. To make this happen we had a very narrow and specific window we had to hit and if we missed we'd get nothing. We really wanted to know, so off it went.

After seeing the findings our engineering team figured out what was going wrong, corrected the problem and moved on. We haven't been able to retest it using Miller's equipment since but do plan on doing that in the near future. Knowing the specific problem we can test for this on the AP and it works just fine.:D

Bulldogger

09-06-09, 08:17 PM

But those connections are single-ended. I will use the balanced connections on the first input to the Six Shooter for the DAC!!!

You should try some PS Audio Transcendent XLR cables. Single crystal silver, and well made.

amirm

09-06-09, 10:07 PM

After seeing the findings our engineering team figured out what was going wrong, corrected the problem and moved on. We haven't been able to retest it using Miller's equipment since but do plan on doing that in the near future. Knowing the specific problem we can test for this on the AP and it works just fine.:D
Paul, the test in question had nothing to do with jitter. It was the ultrasonic components that should not be there when driven from 20K full scale signal (among others). I know my AP can measure the exact same thing so I assume yours can too. It should take all of 30 minutes to repeat the same test.

Here is the result that Chu posted:
http://amir-views.com/downloads/AVS/PSAudioDac

Steve Bruzonsky

09-06-09, 10:09 PM

You should try some PS Audio Transcendent XLR cables. Single crystal silver, and well made.

Oh - the only PS Audio XLR analog cables I found on their website were in 2003 and are discontinued and not a current product:

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/xstream-audio-xlr-interconnects?cat=cables-accessories-classics

Steve Bruzonsky

09-06-09, 11:49 PM

But for whatever reason I Googled and found them at a related website:

http://dealers.psaudio.com/products/xstream_resolution_audio_overview.asp

oddeofile

09-08-09, 04:18 PM

You should try some PS Audio Transcendent XLR cables. Single crystal silver, and well made.

They sound superb and smoke just about everything else i pit them against. PS Audios' cabling never got the same focus as other name brand cable mfrs did. But there were a couple of reviews that were super on the Transcendents. The XLR's are wonderful.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-08-09, 04:38 PM

They sound superb and smoke just about everything else i pit them against. PS Audios' cabling never got the same focus as other name brand cable mfrs did. But there were a couple of reviews that were super on the Transcendents. The XLR's are wonderful.

Unfortunately I checked direct with PS Audio today and they are all sold out of this run of these cables. Shame!@@@

oddeofile

09-08-09, 04:42 PM

Yes, indeed they are. They have been discontinued for well over a year now, I think due to the high cost of silver in mfg them. They had a couple pair of 2 meter and 3 meter length left a couple of weeks ago. It was posted on the PS Audio forum about them and I am sure were gone the same day.

I absolutely love them. Also, the Transcendent solid silver speaker cables were even better. They are so rare I have yet so see a pair come up used. They sound so superb nobody wants to sell theirs. Me included!

Chu Gai

09-08-09, 07:08 PM

Paul, the test in question had nothing to do with jitter. It was the ultrasonic components that should not be there when driven from 20K full scale signal (among others). I know my AP can measure the exact same thing so I assume yours can too. It should take all of 30 minutes to repeat the same test.

Here is the result that Chu posted:
http://amir-views.com/downloads/AVS/PSAudioDac
Yes, I have no particular issues with respect to jitter. But it's not just the ultrasonic components. As one looks at the other graphs that I purloined from AVTech (30kHz & 40kHz fundamentals) we start to see additional information that appears signficant in terms of relative level appear below 20kHz. Hence, I am speculating that perhaps the reason why oddeophile found the hi-rez discs so particularly enjoyable in Native Mode may've been due to significant enhancement of information below 20kHz. I realize I've jumped the gun as you stated AmirM earlier but with the available measurements available, I'm at a bit of a loss to account for Oddeophile's observations. If you've got speculations, I'd love to read them.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-09-09, 12:09 PM

plcomp

09-09-09, 10:45 PM

I've been following this thread since inception. My 1st pair of PWT and PWD's is landing in SA just about now, and I I should soon be able to test it against the ML390S (on redbook, that is). This should be interesting, because the ML - even though a relatively old model, is still a really superb transport - with a not-too-shabby DAC and pre-amp thrown in.

I'm excited and should soon be able to post my own SUBJECTIVE findings. :)

Steve Bruzonsky

09-10-09, 01:19 PM

mccaff

09-10-09, 05:53 PM

Setup:

My Theta Compli is on Symposium Rollerblocks, on a Symposium Ultra platform, using a Granite Audio power cord and a Cardas AES/EBU digital
cable. Also uses multi-channel Granite Audio analog cables to Theta Six Shooter for SACD and DVD-A.

Which Cardas cable are you using? Lightning, Neutral Reference, or some other model?

BTW, I am taking it as bad news that there is no new press release about Casablanca HDMI even though CEDIA has started.

Steve

Steve Bruzonsky

09-10-09, 06:22 PM

For balanced digital I've been using Cardas Neutral Reference.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-10-09, 09:16 PM

Just listened to the new pressing by Mobile Fidelity of The Doobie Brothers "Toulouse Steet" SACD/CD, listened to the CD part on the PWD. WOW! Sounds fantastic whether in regular stereo or Circle Music with my Theta CB3 Extreme DACs - I like using the surround mode on this one!

Steve Bruzonsky

09-11-09, 03:49 PM

Ha! Just got notifed my PWDac is being shipped today. YEA!!!@@@

oddeofile

09-11-09, 05:53 PM

Ha! Just got notifed my PWDac is being shipped today. YEA!!!@@@

Excellent! Should sound good right out of the box, but give time to break in. The caps need to break in for a while.

Also, let the Transcendent IC's break in. They sound night/day after about 300 hours.

Did you order the I2S12 HDMI? A "must have" to make the combo sing. It was shocking the improvements between coax, XLR and HDMI with the I2S12 cable. Pure silver, properly employed in the HDMI connection, makes all the difference. Don't believe? Just try swapping out a good HDMI silver clad copper cable and you will be very surprised. I was not prepared for the level in improvement.

Equally shocking, and of course around here, heresy, is the application of the I2S12 silver HDMI cable in a reference HDMI HT set up. Now, finally, my reference HDMI based HT system just smokes!

Steve Bruzonsky

09-12-09, 12:04 PM

Yea I got I2S12 HDMI cable, too. Next week should be fun!

plcomp

09-15-09, 01:09 AM

My PWD/PWT arrived yesterday evening.
System: PWD/PWT/I2S silver cable.
PS Audio Statement and Premier power cables.
MF 750K "booster" amps fed directly via Transcendent XLR's from PWD.
Relatively entry-level VdH "teatrack" speaker cable.
B&W 802D's.

Initial impressions: Decently packaged; beatifully crafted; looking extremely nice and first impression is one of quality. Definately from outside appearances the most beautiful item ever engineered by PS Audio, IMHO.

ROM drawer cheap type, but I accept PSA's explanation here; AND I have to agree that the quality of the ROM drawer does not appear to influence the sound quality negatively in any way.

I would have really loved a more quality feel to the remote. It's operation also seems to be very direct - you have to get used to after using a more powerful remote.

plcomp

09-15-09, 04:33 AM

Hi-Res: I've already been able to listen to the x2 free download WAV's - and it is very good. However, I don't particularly like the music and so would have liked to have more material available before commenting further on hi-res.

Tonight, I'll try to do the following two tests:-

Firstly: To hook the ML390S up to the PWD (via XLR digital). I'll cut two copies of the same disk and try to do some sort of A/B of the two transports using the PWD's DAC.

Secondly: I'll remove the PWD completely, and hook the PWT up to the ML390S's DAC (it fortunately has an extra input). This will allow me to compare the two transports using the ML's DAC.

plcomp

09-15-09, 11:15 AM

Just started test no 1, where I hooked up the ML390S to the PWD via XLR digital.
I cut 2 standard disks (Barb Jungr), and started playing both a few seconds apart.
From here it was easy to flick between the I2S and XLR Inputs.
Early days, I only played one track like this so far, but I cannot tell a difference so far. Both transports are excellent. This is good, for the PWT, because we should remember that the ML390S - slightly aged or not, is an excellent drive. So far I can say with confidence that the PWT at least match it. I need more time for more tests.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-15-09, 03:53 PM

Although I have experienced burn-in as making a difference with some components and even cables - and thus I like to burn-in and play with it some before I post my impressions - Gee, we don't wanna discuss it here because then Chu, etc will run rampant with their psychological placebo twisters here in this thread. HA! But you may wanna do some burn-in before serious listening and commenting. HA! HA!

My PWD just arrived. My balanced cables will be here in a few days.
I will burn it all in and enjoy awhile and then post my impressions including comparing the PWD to my Theta CB3 Extreme DACs in my sytem re how they sound.

Steve Bruzonsky

09-15-09, 11:56 PM

Hell. I was beat today. Especially my sore right hip and leg. So I figured I would wait a day or two to install the PS Audio PowerWave DAC.

HA! HA! HEE HAW! SURE.

I got extra energy after swimming so early this evening I installed my new hopefully pride and joy.

I put a Symposium Ultra shelf on bottom, then a set of three Symposium rectangular blocks, then the PWT, then the PWD with its feet off, then a Symposium Svelte Shelf (less than 1/2" high) with a Bright Star Little Rock on top making a nice tight sandwich of everything. HA!

Both units have Granite Audio power cords back to the PS Audio Premier power plant.

The PWT remains connected to my Theta CB3 by a Cardas Neutral Reference digital AES/EBU cable, with the CB3 set to play stereo via its Extreme DACs.

The PWT is also connected via I2S cable (a HDMI cable, in this case, a .5M DVI Gear Super High Resolution cable I had) to the PWD. My PS Audio I2S cable is on backorder, probably another month or so.

The PSD is connected by s 1M pair of Blue Jeans Cable (Belden) AES/EBU analog interconnects into the Theta Six Shooter balanced inputs. My PS Audio Transcendent interconnects will replace the BJCable when they arrive within hopefully a week or so.

For now I simply have the PWD set to "Native " mode meaning it plays the native rate digitally encoded, though I can try upsampling later on.

I set the volume of the PSD to the max - 100; and I also set the CB3's Extreme DAC balanced digital input to a minus 2 speaker level compared to the Six Shooter inputs for the PWD - and the sound level is very, very close if I use the PWD Dacs or if I use the CB3 Xtreme DACs identical to my ears. I have the CB3 set up so all I do is hit a button on the remote to switch betwen them.