First, I'm assuming this thread is for all HDTV displays since Flat Panel probably means LCD, Plasma, etc and FP means Front Projection. So I can only assume that for some reason RP was left out since there has to be a thread where all display types can be compared.

I had a very bad experience at Best Buy with one of the most obnoxious, smart alec managers that swore 70-80" displays were tens of thousands of dollars and that DLP was dead.

His whole criteria for a "good display" was one that looked good in direct sunlight. Of course, all the tv's on display were cranked so far into saturation, it was hard to take.

FYI, I ran a 11.5' FP GE NTSC years ago onto a wall in my house and I loved it. Of course, the room had to be basically a photographic dark room which really sucked, but it still was visceral.

I would say that 11.5' is actually "big enough" but I don't think we're there yet.

I must say I was spoiled by the convenience of a RP 52" Pioneer NTSC which I bought new 15 years ago and still has the ability to burn my eyes with brightness. So I'm not fully in either Flat Panel or Front Proejction's camps.

Any thoughts?

Oh, forgot to mention (obviously) that I an not rich so a 110" plasma is too expensive for me.

First, I'm assuming this thread is for all HDTV displays since Flat Panel probably means LCD, Plasma, etc and FP means Front Projection. So I can only assume that for some reason RP was left out since there has to be a thread where all display types can be compared.

I had a very bad experience at Best Buy with one of the most obnoxious, smart alec managers that swore 70-80" displays were tens of thousands of dollars and that DLP was dead.

His whole criteria for a "good display" was one that looked good in direct sunlight. Of course, all the tv's on display were cranked so far into saturation, it was hard to take.

FYI, I ran a 11.5' FP GE NTSC years ago onto a wall in my house and I loved it. Of course, the room had to be basically a photographic dark room which really sucked, but it still was visceral.

I would say that 11.5' is actually "big enough" but I don't think we're there yet.

I must say I was spoiled by the convenience of a RP 52" Pioneer NTSC which I bought new 15 years ago and still has the ability to burn my eyes with brightness. So I'm not fully in either Flat Panel or Front Proejction's camps.

Any thoughts?

Oh, forgot to mention (obviously) that I an not rich so a 110" plasma is too expensive for me.

As much as I dislike most of the sales monkeys at BB, I have to say that this time some of what they say is true. Large 70+" flat panel TV's are very expensive, and not really cost effective. Panasonic makes the largest flat screen at 150", but they have sizes of 103", 80" and the popular 65"er. Pricing has come down, but still not where mere mortals can participate. If you want that large of a screen size, my best advice is to go Projector. There's a great Forum on here, and pay close attention to the new JVC Front Projector.

Is there a Front Projector forum? Which one has the JVC?

Is there a Front Projector forum? Which one has the JVC?

No offense, but are you new to computing?

On AVS, click "Forums", then scroll down to "Hi-End Projectors $3000 USD MSRP & Up". You will then see many threads to investigate. I suggest you try the "JVC RS2" Thread. Hope this helps.

I must confess, for me, the forum categories on this site are counter intuitive.

I read the "Digital Hi-End Projectors" thread description and found it unclear and confusing.

But thank you very much for the model number!

It looks like a very good unit however, it is far beyond my price range these days. Further, my current home which I will be stuck in for the foreseeable future has a spot for a 70-80" picture which is achievable for a non-FP display. (FP is really a last resort and only a choice when a really big picture is "on the table."

Thanks again,
Tom

I must confess, for me, the forum categories on this site are counter intuitive.

I read the "Digital Hi-End Projectors" thread description and found it unclear and confusing.

But thank you very much for the model number!

It looks like a very good unit however, it is far beyond my price range these days. Further, my current home which I will be stuck in for the foreseeable future has a spot for a 70-80" picture which is achievable for a non-FP display. (FP is really a last resort and only a choice when a really big picture is "on the table."

Thanks again,
Tom

If the front projector is too expensive, I have another option for you to consider. On the RPTV Forum section there is a thread titled "Don't Dump Your CRT RPTV". Read over it and pay attention to Mr. Bob, as I consider him an expert in CRT RPTV's. This guy knows his stuff.

The gist of the thread that there are these very high end CRT RPTV's capable of still delivering the most beautiful PQ once they have a thorough lens cleaning and a professional calibration. Not just anyone can perform these tasks, but there are a few techs still out there that can, and Mr. Bob would be first on my list. The Pioneer Elites and the Mitsubishi Diamond Series were probably the very best examples of CRT RPTV. Mr. Bob himself owns a 73"er. As the country has been going crazy over flat panels, a lot of folks have been selling these TV's for pennies on the dollar just to get them out of the house. These are rather large and heavy TV's, but once put in place who moves them around anyway?

This just may be the answer to your problem, as it allows you to purchase a used large screen CRT RPTV for a maybe $400-$600, and then have it tweaked to perfection for around $400-$500, and you're setup w/a beautiful Home Theater TV for the next 7-10 years.

Outside front projection you're choice is basically a 73" Mitsubishiu DLP or they did release an 82" DLP($5k MSRP). Beyond this, yeah you'd pretty much have to be rich. BTW, front projection pretty much needs a dark environment if you want a really good picture.

Actually, I was just checking Craigslist and I think used will be the way I will go.

Locally I found the 70" JVC for $2000 and 3 different 65" including a Mitsu. ranging from $400-800.

I like the JVC because it has IEEE-1394 input but it is 3-4X the money for what, 5" and Firewire? Probably can't justify that.

I had a room full of Advent 7' Front Projectors (the original). At one point I think I had 3 of them. It was a service man's dream - it had about 15 replaceable circuit boards (they plugged into a "mainframe") which coincided with a circuit block diagram. Then I got some of the newer Advents in the neat walnut case. Then a Zenith and then a GE front projector. I lusted after a Sony but never got one. Runco was out there, but way out there!

I guess I could do a used swap - sell my Pioneer 52" NTSC for what.... $100-200??? and get a used CRT RP. The only thing I don't like is that the Pioneer had a full case where you could pile components on top of it to the ceiling(!) So I would have a logistic problem to solve with one of these newer units.

Remember that CRT RPTVs are analog displays. You will not satisfy the requirements for the HDCP system used for Blu-Ray disks or Premium Cable Programming unless you have a digital display with an HDMI interface that has HDCP support.

Nor will the NTSC tuner on such a set ever receive anything again. That means that all such analog displays must use ATSC tuners with analog component video outputs for older analog HDTVs. That is an example of a class of device no longer being manufactured.

If you are determined to go the route of an analog HDTV, one of your available alternatives is using a PC with and HDTV tuner as your signal source. You can find an HDTV tuner here:

http://www.hdtvtunerinfo.com/

...you can check the HTPC Forum here at AVS for tips on using that same PC as a playback device for Blu-Ray and DVD with analog HD outputs. I did so for years before switching to conventional disk players and modern digital HDTVs. I use PCs all day long in my job, I didn't want to maintain another and tweek it and backup the data just so I could watch various forms of HD video. But HTPCs CAN be made to work.

6Volt, what Gary says is true, but if you go to the Post #1 by Mr. Bob, on Page #1 (at the end his post), of the "Don't Dump Your CRT RPTV", there is a "fix" for those really older RPTV's that did not come w/DVI or HDMI. If I were to go the "used" CRT RPTV route, I would only consider the very high-end models that were made from 2002 to the end of production. In fact, I'd prefer the last model year that incorporated the highest level of CRT video tech. Also, the high-end models had better lenses and other features that make the "used" route a better deal. Mr. Bob can help you choose which of these models were the best of the best, but I know the Pioneer Elites and Mits Diamond Series were at the top.

I'll mention that I am an owner of a 1st generation HD Fury. I bought it for my existing older front projector with it's VGA input. But I did NOT find it a satisfactory way to watch HDCP protected sources, it had many of the same features (or lack of features) that irritated me about HTPCs.

Truthfully even HD digital displays and real HDCP support gets irritating sometimes. Like when your new NetFlix Blu-Ray disk refuses to play until you connect your PS3 via broadband and update the firmware.....

I totally forgot about all this nonsense.

IEEE-1394 (FW) was the digital interface the FCC specified in the HDTV spec.

How that got twisted into the industry HDMI is beyond me.

I'm sure the FCC could have withheld approvals for components that did not have and support a FW interface.

But they didn't.

BTW, an OTA tuner would interface with FW, right? since that is the only applicable digital spec for OTA broadcasters being that 5c broadcast flag was shot down.

Its like when EPA and Dept. of Agriculture Regs conflict - the DoAg runs away and hides while the farmer gets crusified for listening to the DoAg.

Also like Fair Use yet DCMA prohibits the construction of any device that would allow that to be exercised.

6Volt, my brother-in-law has a Mits Diamond 55" CRT RPTV he bought back in early January 2003 and it has a beautiful picture. They use DirectTV, get OAR, play BluRay, and stream video movies from Netflix via a laptop on a regular basis. This pretty much covers about everything 99.9% of TV viewers could ever want. I think it's most important you buy a "high-end" used Mits or Pioneer Elite or Runco, etc.

I totally forgot about all this nonsense.

-snip-

BTW, an OTA tuner would interface with FW, right? since that is the only applicable digital spec for OTA broadcasters being that 5c broadcast flag was shot down.

-snip-

The current list of presently available HD Set Top Boxes is in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095

A bare few solutions support Firewire, almost all are HDMI.

There are still a few with analog interfaces but all support the copy protection schemes that in fact ARE PRESENTLY IMPLEMENTED in many if not all DSS and cable boxes. The content owner is the party that determines the copy protect setting. For example I sometimes don't get to archive DVD copies of the material in my DirecTiVo or TiVo HD because HBO or some other Premium Channel has set the copy protection ON. But I can typically take a lower quality analog VHS copy even with the CP bits set. The idea is the content owner decides if a copy can be made, and not you.

You need to decide what video sources interest you and then see if you can find a current production set top box for that in the thread above, with an analog interface.

Meanwhile if you are not wanting to go the HTPC route or use an HD Fury HDMI-to-VGA or HDMI-to-Component Video solution (and I don't like either alternative myself) then best go after a digital display. You can still buy a DVD player with analog video outputs, but if you want Blu-Ray or even upscaling DVD playback, you need a digital display with HDCP support.

Mitsubishi has released an 82" dlp set.
http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/product/WD82837
I believe it has a MSRP of $5000

Gary,

The Big Problem is the FW is the only input for D-VHS that allows it to record HD and DD5.1

73" DLPs are under $1,600 (3D Capable and 120Hz), so the guy didn't really know what he was talking about. 82" DLP is under $4,000.

Your best option for over 80" is a front projection + Screen Innovations "Black Diamond II" screen which is designed for ambient light.

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=97462

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=97467

Those look like nice sets. But for about $4K you can also get a 120Hz DLP front projector and a screen. That would allow you to have a 120" or larger image, but only in near darkness.

If you go with the DLP, remember that these RPTVs have Fresnel lenses that give narrow viewing angles, even more so than LCD panels. Of course if your room seating is already set up for an older RPTV, thats no concern.

Here is your only option if you are a 8 figure millionaire ,it shouldn`t be a problem:-)


50k for you but because of the recession,give or take i`m sure they will let it go for 25-30k.
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=225163&catGroupId=14624&surfModel=TH-103PF10UK&displayTab=O



TH-103PF10UK

I'm selling my 60" Kuro and going the FP route. I need bigger.;) There's some really good info in this thread on your different choices. As you know, you're not gonna get an 80" flat panel (Panny being the exception). You're either gonna have to settle on a rear projection or go big with a front projection. And as the saying goes, "go big or go home.":D

Have at it. The good news is that the "Black Diamond II" screen material described above is usable in partial light conditions, and offers video quality equivalent to a Plasma panel using front projection. Such screens intended for partial lighting conditions are late developments and unfortunately they will not retract and must be tensioned in a fixed frame with mini bungee cords. Black Diamond II is available in gain 0.8 and 1.4, check out both as they perform differently. I use a 1.1 gain matte white screen with my front projector that requires total room darkening. That in turn means I have to clean up popcorn, chip&dip, and beer dribbles after every movie night. This in turn leads to some marital tension because my "home theater" room doubles as my front room and the wife wants the seating re-arranged, the room clean, and the screen retracted between movie nights. If you can acheive good front projection in partial ambient light, that would be a better solution IMHO. A dedicated home theater room is even better still.

My FP screen is 96" and sometimes I take off my glasses and center my favorite chair and sit only 72" from it in the surround sweet spot and get totally immersed in the movie.

I'm selling my 60" Kuro and going the FP route. I need bigger.;) There's some really good info in this thread on your different choices. As you know, you're not gonna get an 80" flat panel (Panny being the exception). You're either gonna have to settle on a rear projection or go big with a front projection. And as the saying goes, "go big or go home.":D


I don't think i could sell the kuro for a fp. I would try to keep both. If you have no choice to get rid of the tv for space reasons then i could see. But i'm sure you know the room is gonna need total light control, no light leaks at all to have a shot at being happy with FP. If money is a issue i would get a cheaper FP, i don't think it's worth it to buy a expensive one like a jvc lcos, just because it's still a lcos. It's not worth thousands more because of it's black levels. But the kuro is compared to other plasmas. I admit i probably made no sense.

...i don't think it's worth it to buy a expensive one like a jvc lcos, just because it's still a lcos. It's not worth thousands more because of it's black levels. But the kuro is compared to other plasmas. I admit i probably made no sense.

It isn't because of the black levels? :confused: Isn't that the main reason people choose a Pioneer over a Panasonic or a Samsung plasma? It certainly was for me. It cost me a good $1300 to get the Pioneer 6020 for black levels and then others wanting the Elites to control color accuracy and such would have cost them another grand.

I think you are underestimating how good a good front projection setup can look. Luckly I got a Pioneer (JVC clone) for the price of an Epson and while the picture is definitely not as good as a Pioneer it still looks great! You need to see a JVC setup on a DaLite High Power screen. The picture doesn't look as dim and black levels are still pretty good. The JVCs actually have a lower luminance than the Kuros but the ANSI doesn't compare to a Kuro.

I avoided going front projection because my Kuro was great. I saw my friends Epson 1080UB setup and it just didn't cut it for my taste. However, the JVC was good enough to make me make the switch. You couldn't get me to go back to the Pioneer over the Pioneer/JVC projector I had. No way! My opinion was the opposite last year. However, I do agree with you in that the dual setup is the key. I bought a nice Samsung LCD to pick up the rest. In some areas it's better than a Kuro, in other areas not so much;).

A good while back, I read about "negative gain" front projection screens at CES. Even in my B&H photo A/V catalog, there is no mention of this.

I think the technology was with "unlimited projector brightness" it would be possible to make a screen that is "blacker." Since ambient light determines what black is on a screen. I don't think it was related to side viewing.

Also, my old NTSC Pio 52" has that matte screen that lets you watch in a room full of windows when the sun is out without any reflection problems. I don't think I've seen that in any HD set yet. I cannot imagine dealing with the glossy glass screen of some new TV I bring into my home.

Also, I missed, early in this thread, a reference to a BB "sales monkey" which really surprised me. I hadn't realized BB was upping its game by putting actual monkeys on the sales floor - it just doesn't get any better than that! Yeah Baby, just slip them a banana or two and "Whoops.... where'd that scratch and dent come from..."

Regards,
Tom

It isn't because of the black levels? :confused: Isn't that the main reason people choose a Pioneer over a Panasonic or a Samsung plasma?

True, but size played a important part-60in vs 58. Unless you liked the panasonic 65in, and imo they don't perform well. The samsung 63in seems much better. But i hear you, i just think the kuro is leaps and bounds better than anything out there.


I think you are underestimating how good a good front projection setup can look. Luckly I got a Pioneer (JVC clone) for the price of an Epson and while the picture is definitely not as good as a Pioneer it still looks great! You need to see a JVC setup on a DaLite High Power screen. The picture doesn't look as dim and black levels are still pretty good.


I admit i have not seen a FP in a total light control room, but the one's i have seen seemed washed out, dim, with just a little bit of light leaking in.


I avoided going front projection because my Kuro was great. I saw my friends Epson 1080UB setup and it just didn't cut it for my taste. However, the JVC was good enough to make me make the switch. You couldn't get me to go back to the Pioneer over the Pioneer/JVC projector I had. No way! My opinion was the opposite last year. However, I do agree with you in that the dual setup is the key. I bought a nice Samsung LCD to pick up the rest. In some areas it's better than a Kuro, in other areas not so much;).

The only area i think lcos is better is it's abilty to throw a cleaner picture than plasma. Plus size in a FP is comparing apples-oranges. No comparison fp blows away any tv. But PQ wise lcos-dlp, can't even throw a deep green. Color is just too synthetic. Hence why i don't think it's worth buying a expensive JVC-pioneer clone. you basically have the best worst technology out there. I personally would rather have better color accuracy with a sony and take a hit on black levels. Because even with better blacks you will have worse color accuracy than sony, and no matter what the color will still be synthetic looking, neon greens. With the kuro you get perfection, with a jvc you get great blacks, but still synthetic, inaccurate colors. Now if we are talking a low hour sony g90 it's worth paying 4-6k.

Just thought I toss out there the insanity of "banks of projectors" to get brighter big FP images.

The Horror.... The Horror...

True, but size played a important part-60in vs 58. Unless you liked the panasonic 65in, and imo they don't perform well. The samsung 63in seems much better. But i hear you, i just think the kuro is leaps and bounds better than anything out there.





I admit i have not seen a FP in a total light control room, but the one's i have seen seemed washed out, dim, with just a little bit of light leaking in.




The only area i think lcos is better is it's abilty to throw a cleaner picture than plasma. Plus size in a FP is comparing apples-oranges. No comparison fp blows away any tv. But PQ wise lcos-dlp, can't even throw a deep green. Color is just too synthetic. Hence why i don't think it's worth buying a expensive JVC-pioneer clone. you basically have the best worst technology out there. I personally would rather have better color accuracy with a sony and take a hit on black levels. Because even with better blacks you will have worse color accuracy than sony, and no matter what the color will still be synthetic looking, neon greens. With the kuro you get perfection, with a jvc you get great blacks, but still synthetic, inaccurate colors. Now if we are talking a low hour sony g90 it's worth paying 4-6k.

You need to see a good setup before coming to a conclusion. The Pioneer is a great TV and for movie watching it can't be beat. However, 60" is as big as it gets. If that's sufficient then you're all set. there are tradeoffs yes. I don't have a great eye for color accuracy and I'm certain my Pioneer/JVC projector has oversaturated colors. The RS20 is supposed to be much better in this area. Whether it's worth the money or not is going to be a personal call. I shared your opinion(although ANSI was the big hurdle for me to get over with FP) until earlier this year when I saw a good setup. Now for TV and games I'll choose a flat panel. However for movies the Kuro is past history for me and even though the JVCs have problems they still deliver a great picture and it was enough to convert me. :)

Just thought I toss out there the insanity of "banks of projectors" to get brighter big FP images.

The Horror.... The Horror...

If you can mount your projector remotely close to eye level you should consider the DaLite High Power screen. It will give brightness much closer to a calibrated plasma. And if you get a projector with great black levels you'll still have very good contrast. I can say though that I was lucky enough to get my Pioneer(RS2 clone) and 106" DaLite HP Model C screen for less than $3100 for both (about $1100 cheaper than my 6020 cost me over a year ago!).

Don't get me wrong, the Kuro is a fantastic picture. Selling it on the other hand has proven more difficult than expected. However, I believe I can get pretty darn close to the picture quality as well as get closer to the theater experience. I will be ceiling mounting my projector and my room is light in color, so I'm leaning towards a Stewart Firehawk screen. Time to kick it up a notch! I may even rub some garlic on my speakers and yell BAM! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvazQUYG1kE&feature=related):D

Black levels are important too, especially when talking about a Front Projector in a darkened or mostly darkened room. The high gain screens give the same gain to the black areas of the image. So calibrating a front projector is not optional, its essential.

Interestingly enough, one of the areas where I often fault film in a theater is the black levels. The 35mm distribution print in the average theater is often a fourth generation optical copy of the camera negative, and each copy step raises the light level in dark scenes. Which is why when push comes to shove, the digital projector which is often projecting a bit-perfect copy of the second generation DCinema intermediate file, may have better blacks than the 35mm projector next door showing the same movie on film.

+1 or the CRT RPTV camp. I picked up a Mits WS65513 needing some DM caps and a 9V regulator ($20 worth of parts) for $100 on craigslist. The set has DVI input with HDCP, you can't beat a used RPTV for the price/performance ratio. Mine has the ATSC tuner also, although I don't hardly ever use it. In fact very few people use their built in ATSC tuner, most have pay TV service. Even if you need an ATSC tuner you can also buy those cheap on eBay/Craigslist. There are also the DTVpal DVr and HTPC options.

I asked at the front projector forum and they said you couldn't get an 82-inch projector set up that would be BRIGHTER than Mitsubishi's 82-inch DLP.

It appears that the 82-inch DLP is the largest TV.

Bigger than that and you're either in cave man projector land or cost out the wazoo Panasonic plasma for the rich and famous.

Just curious--doesn't Panasonic make or intends to make a flat panel in the 80-90 inch size range? How much does it cost?

There is a thread in the plasma section from a couple of months ago that reported that Panny was going to release a 85" model this Fall. Commercial model with no price specified. We should know soon.