*i hope this is the right place for this*

comcast is converting to all digital in my area (reston VA) starting september 1. they are saying that all TV, yes ALL, with out a comcast box or cable card will be required to get this DTA device. I have comacs and on one of my TVs i even hav the HD box however on a difffrent TV, this tv is a digital ready TV is a able to get a cable card but i dont have one, i dont ahve a box. after this digital switch will they be brodcasting the channels like ESPN in clear QAM or will the be encrypted?

thanks for any help in understanding this matter.

*i hope this is the right place for this*

comcast is converting to all digital in my area (reston VA) starting september 1. they are saying that all TV, yes ALL, with out a comcast box or cable card will be required to get this DTA device. I have comacs and on one of my TVs i even hav the HD box however on a difffrent TV, this tv is a digital ready TV is a able to get a cable card but i dont have one, i dont ahve a box. after this digital switch will they be brodcasting the channels like ESPN in clear QAM or will the be encrypted?

thanks for any help in understanding this matter.

After September 1st you should rescan the channels on your digital TV to find out what you may receive. If your TV has a clear QAM tuner you should be able to tune all the "services" that a DTA will tune. Keep in mind that a clear QAM tuner equipped TV will find the "services" on sub-channels that will differ from the Comcast scheme of "mapped locations" used by their DTAs, converter boxes and Cable Cards. To unscramble encoded services you need the Comcast converter box or a Cable Card. Comcast DTAs do not unscramble encoded services.

After September 1st you should rescan the channels on your digital TV to find out what you may receive. If your TV has a clear QAM tuner you should be able to tune all the "services" that a DTA will tune. Keep in mind that a clear QAM tuner equipped TV will find the "services" on sub-channels that will differ from the Comcast scheme of "mapped locations" used by their DTAs, converter boxes and Cable Cards. To unscramble encoded services you need the Comcast converter box or a Cable Card. Comcast DTAs do not unscramble encoded services.

yes my TV has a clear QAM tuner currently i get like WETA on say 21.6 so after sept 1 say ESPN would have a similar format like 26.5? oddly i cant get cartoon network or hallmark currently but there inforjmation says that these cahnnels will be available with the DTA

yes my TV has a clear QAM tuner currently i get like WETA on say 21.6 so after sept 1 say ESPN would have a similar format like 26.5? oddly i cant get cartoon network or hallmark currently but there inforjmation says that these cahnnels will be available with the DTA

I would suggest rescanning your channels now to see what you get. Then, after September 1st rescan your channels again to see what you get. Then you may determine if you need or want a DTA.

Not everything that Comcast tells its customers is the whole truth.

"A half-truth masquerading as the whole truth becomes a complete untruth.” (J.I. Packer, Introductory Essay, The Death of Death, page two, Banner of Truth Trust, 1959, reprinted 1963).

Even if they encrypt everything else, the locals should at least be left in the clear (in HD, too).

Comcast usually gives out at least two, free DTA's to customers. So if you do need them, be sure to ask specifically for them (free, that is). If they don't offer them to you, tell them you'll be cancelling for some other provider, and they should.

The DTA's are only standard definition.

(By the way - what the heck is "comacs"?)

(Background: Note that service providers may actually be transmitting three signals for the same local broadcast channel: [possibly down-converted] analog, HD, and/or ADS [or "SD digital"].)

People disagree about what the regulations require, but the way it actually works is that service providers generally leave at least one signal for each local broadcast channel unencrypted (but sometimes encrypt one or both of the others).

-----

Related question: Do DTAs have analog tuners? (I think the answer is "no" -- and if that is the case, until a service provider gets a waiver, they cannot encrypt both digital signals for a local broadcast channel wherever they've deployed DTAs, but again, can still encrypt one of the two.)

Do DTAs have analog tuners?

A DTA is a clear QAM only tuner that maps "services" to "locations" according to the cable company numbering scheme. The Comcast Pace DC50X DTA provides only an analog RF output. Locally the DTA provides extended basic and a few other unencoded services.

The DTA is the cable version of the Coupon Eligible Converter Box used for ATSC (antenna reception). CECBs provide a better picture quality composite (and in a few models, S-Video) output not found on the Pace DTA.

So only the one tuner in the box. Thanks.

A DTA is a clear QAM only tuner that maps "services" to "locations" according to the cable company numbering scheme.

does this mean that its able to get channels that another clear QAM tuner wouldn't be able to get? wouldn't that go against separable security as the "box" and security are not able to be separated?

First: The short answer is "no, that doesn't go against separable security". The DTA, as it is now, doesn't give you access to services that you couldn't get otherwise, it simply tunes in a specific frequency based on your call for a specific service.

I think the confusion stems from the fact that CableCARDs do both things: serving the decryption and service mapping. However, the regulation that brought about CableCARD pertains only to the security aspect (to the decryption). You can access all the services that the DTA provides without the DTA, with your own QAM tuner, but you'll just have to do the mapping in your head (or on a piece of paper).

So no violation there.

Second: It is possible to get a waiver from the separable security regulation. Comcast hasn't been granted one yet, but a lot of people think that it is inevitable.

Just going back to my question, earlier, about whether there was an analog tuner in a DTA. Given DigaDo's answer of "no", that means that in areas where DTAs are deployed, we can rest assured that at least one of the two digital signals for a local broadcast channel will be unencrypted, along with the analog signal for the local broadcast channel. Effectively, of the three different possible signals for a local broadcast channel, generally speaking, only the HD signal can be encrypted in areas where DTAs are deployed.

I thought that the FCC said that local stations must be both unencrypted and not "materially degraded". Downrezzing to SD would be materialy degrading it. Therefore I think he HD feed of local stations must be left in the clear. I think that there is one exception to this: if the retransmission consent agreement specifically allows the cable company to scramble the signal. I have heard rumors of some cable companies paying stations a lot more money for permission to encrypt the HD feed and put it on an HD tier. Apperently any out-of-market stations the cable company DXs in can also be encrypted. Bright House of Bakersfield scrambles the digital feeds of L.A. stations. The analogs are not.

The material degradation issue has already been beaten to death, so let's not rehash it here. I'll simply say, "Good luck getting the regulations interpreted the way you would like them to be interpreted." The reality that people are experiencing does not match what you've described, and so until you achieve your legal victory no one should get the impression that things are supposed the way you suggest.

And there is no foundation in the regulation for any type of single exception, like you assert. I'm not sure where you got that from.

Cable companies can and do encrypt HD local broadcast channels. Not many of them do, but some do, and there is no indication that your interpretation of the regulation applies such to prohibit that.

Big question, will i still get HD locals on my HDTV with basic expanded cable with this all digital crap I do not want a stupid box. Also will the QAM channels like 110-12 and so on will they be there. I need a good answer from someone who has gone to the all digital change over.

Thanks

You will most likely not be able to get anything but the HD and SD locals, and whatever local subchannels they offer, along with the local public interest channels, without their box.

The general rule here is to advise people to scan and see what they would pick up first, and if they're not satisfied with what they get, then they will need their tuner.

Big question, will i still get HD locals on my HDTV with basic expanded cable with this all digital crap I do not want a stupid box. Also will the QAM channels like 110-12 and so on will they be there. I need a good answer from someone who has gone to the all digital change over.

Thanks
Every market will be different. Comcast Chicago went one way. Comcast Galesburg is going DTAs. Comcast Peoria has not announced yet. (I have not checked Comcast Bloomington/Normal) You will have to wait and see. It's just like the OTA converter boxes. Reception problems were not reliably predicted. It took the final transition, analog shutdown, and power adjustments to make problems seen. Your local forum is where information should be found/shared.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45

Big question, will i still get HD locals on my HDTV with basic expanded cable with this all digital crap I do not want a stupid box. Also will the QAM channels like 110-12 and so on will they be there. I need a good answer from someone who has gone to the all digital change over.

Thanks

Clear QAM tuner equipped devices not provided by the cable company tune the sub-channels (the ones with dashes/decimal points). Cable company provided STBs, DTAs and Cable Cards "map" services to different whole number "locations" according to that cable company's own numbering scheme.

A question is how many or how few clear QAM sub-channels--whether "analog" in origin, "digital," or "HD"--may local cable companies be providing through their raw coax cable feeds? Another question is how long will a local cable company continue to provide those clear QAM sub-channels through their raw coax cable feed? Most likely the local cable company will not give you truthful answers to such questions. It is becoming more common that cable companies tell their customers that they are required to have a STB, Cable Card or DTA to receive their services.

Most likely the local cable company will not know what they are going to do next year or the year after. Like all service providers, they monitor the marketplace and operations. If customer needs change, or cable theft increases, then service providers will react to those changes appropriately.

Also, one reason that cable companies are now bottom-lining service offerings by saying that a STB, CableCARD or DTA is required is that they are not in the business of teaching people how to use every possible consumer electronics device on the market. All they are required to do is provide us local broadcast channels in the clear, or a working CableCARD. If they can get local broadcast channels working with one of their DTAs, and get other channels working with one of their separable-security-compliant STBs, then they've done their job. If we want to do something beyond that, then it is our obligation to learn how to properly connect and use the device. That's the law. And that's a reflection of what we consumers are willing to pay for. I can tell you I surely don't want to pay extra so someone down the street can bug customer support every few weeks with their confusion about the customer-owned device they purchased. I took the time to learn about what I was buying, and how to use it properly, so I shouldn't have to subsidize someone else who isn't as conscientious about the things they purchase. Let them pay extra for premium support or something -- don't make me pay extra because of their reticence in that regard.

Most likely the local cable company will not know what they are going to do next year or the year after. Like all service providers, they monitor the marketplace and operations. If customer needs change, or cable theft increases, then service providers will react to those changes appropriately.

Also, one reason that cable companies are now bottom-lining service offerings by saying that a STB, CableCARD or DTA is required is that they are not in the business of teaching people how to use every possible consumer electronics device on the market. All they are required to do is provide us local broadcast channels in the clear, or a working CableCARD. If they can get local broadcast channels working with one of their DTAs, and get other channels working with one of their separable-security-compliant STBs, then they've done their job. If we want to do something beyond that, then it is our obligation to learn how to properly connect and use the device. That's the law. And that's a reflection of what we consumers are willing to pay for. I can tell you I surely don't want to pay extra so someone down the street can bug customer support every few weeks with their confusion about the customer-owned device they purchased. I took the time to learn about what I was buying, and how to use it properly, so I shouldn't have to subsidize someone else who isn't as conscientious about the things they purchase. Let them pay extra for premium support or something -- don't make me pay extra because of their reticence in that regard.
I agree 100%.

cyclone16 -

Once you get an official notice from the cable company telling you that you need their tuner, scan your own tuners and see what you pick up first.

But until you get that notice, I wouldn't worry about it.

Most likely the local cable company will not know what they are going to do next year or the year after. Like all service providers, they monitor the marketplace and operations. If customer needs change, or cable theft increases, then service providers will react to those changes appropriately.

Also, one reason that cable companies are now bottom-lining service offerings by saying that a STB, CableCARD or DTA is required is that they are not in the business of teaching people how to use every possible consumer electronics device on the market. All they are required to do is provide us local broadcast channels in the clear, or a working CableCARD. If they can get local broadcast channels working with one of their DTAs, and get other channels working with one of their separable-security-compliant STBs, then they've done their job. If we want to do something beyond that, then it is our obligation to learn how to properly connect and use the device. That's the law. And that's a reflection of what we consumers are willing to pay for. I can tell you I surely don't want to pay extra so someone down the street can bug customer support every few weeks with their confusion about the customer-owned device they purchased. I took the time to learn about what I was buying, and how to use it properly, so I shouldn't have to subsidize someone else who isn't as conscientious about the things they purchase. Let them pay extra for premium support or something -- don't make me pay extra because of their reticence in that regard.

You are correct as far as you go.

My concern is with the ethics of a company and its representatives feigning ignorance or willfully and intentionally misleading a customer in order to make the sale. Tricks, schemes and devices. That's Fraud.

... ethics of a company and its representatives feigning ignorance or willfully and intentionally misleading a customer in order to make the sale.

How about all of the TV advertisements for satellite, cable and FiOS?
All misleading IMO. If you don't know what to ask, they aren't going to tell you about the "fine print" and technical defecits.

No different than burgers, cars or life insurance... no one will give the drawbacks. They want a sale.

As for cable/satellite/etc CSR's... 95% (being generous) of them technically know less than you or I. The tack is:
Answer the phone
Make a sale/upgrade
Get 'em off the phone
Take the next call... :p

You are correct as far as you go. My concern is with the ethics of a company and its representatives feigning ignorance or willfully and intentionally misleading a customer in order to make the sale. I disagree that presenting their services in a legal manner, and in a manner that respects their overriding obligation to their owners to keep costs in control, deserves any of the nefarious connotation implied by references to "ethics" or "feigning" or "willfully" or "misleading".

I think consumers who refuse to acknowledge that services are provided as they are offered, regardless of what the actual pipe is capable of, are a big part of the problem here. I cannot tell you how many times I overhear one or another of my office-mates talking to some CSR on the phone, driving the discussion to where the CSR has no choice but to either kowtow to interrogation or be accused of rudeness. In cases like that (which I believe are a majority of the cases where a CSR gives information that they know is not completely correct), the customer is getting what they deserve AFAIC. I don't want to pay one penny more because someone else wants a company's CSRs to give them more detailed technical support for using a service that was actually promised. If someone wants to make better use of what's available, let them pay extra, and let me continue to take advantage of the low prices that are reflective of the lower level of service provided. I'll read up on the technical issues myself, consult with friends and relatives and folks at church and at work, for their special knowledge.

Tricks, schemes and devices. That's Fraud.Your use of a legal term here for legal and arguably ethical practices that you simply don't like is irresponsible IMHO.

In my government career I observed widespread malfeasance and misfeasance, most common among those with increasingly greater authority.And in my compliance career I observed far more "malfeasance and misfeasance" on the part of consumers with consumerists tendencies than ever emanated from commercial or governmental entities. You want to know why the mass-marketplace is the way it is: Look at the consumers.

I disagree that presenting their services in a legal manner, and in a manner that respects their overriding obligation to their owners to keep costs in control, deserves any of the nefarious connotation implied by references to "ethics" or "feigning" or "willfully" or "misleading" . . .

Your use of a legal term here for legal and arguably ethical practices that you simply don't like is irresponsible IMHO.

And so it is with the modern notion that truth is "subjective," not "objective."

And so it is with the modern notion that truth is "subjective," not "objective."

Those are two terms thrown out ad nauseum on the forums. Bleh...

Anyway, the bottom line is... it's up to the consumer to ask the right questions. If you don't like (or believe) the answer, move up the ladder and request to speak with a supervisor.

And so it is with the modern notion that truth is "subjective," not "objective."As opposed to what? What you think is true is "objective"? :rolleyes:

Those are two terms thrown out ad nauseum on the forums. Bleh...Absolutely. You can be sure that something is not objective if someone tries to assert that it is.

Anyway, the bottom line is... it's up to the consumer to ask the right questions. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/icons/icon14.gif

As opposed to what? What you think is true is "objective"? :rolleyes:

Absolutely. You can be sure that something is not objective if someone tries to assert that it is.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/icons/icon14.gif

A compliance officer that misattributes a Ratman quotation to DigaDo! Do we call that a harmless error or intentional? It's time to review your cases.

Here is the text that I excised from my earlier post as it was then OT but now seems to address the matter at hand:

In my government career I observed widespread malfeasance and misfeasance, most common among those with increasingly greater authority. Early in my career the Code of Ethics read "expose corruption wherever discovered." Later that Code of Ethics was discarded and the SOP became report to the next superior official or a designated official (themselves often the worst offenders) so that elaborate concealment structures may cover-up the corruption and potential whistleblowers may be neutralized. Malfeasance and misfeasance is now the accepted standard in government service.

A compliance officer that misattributes a Ratman quotation to DigaDo! Do we call that a harmless error or intentional? It's time to review your cases.Attribute it to age and bad copy-paste fingering.

Here is the text that I excised from my earlier post as it was then OT but now seems to address the matter at hand:Yes, but this is the text from my earlier post that was OT and addresses the matter at hand: I disagree that presenting their services in a legal manner, and in a manner that respects their overriding obligation to their owners to keep costs in control, deserves any of the nefarious connotation implied by references to "ethics" or "feigning" or "willfully" or "misleading" . . . Again the point is that you don't like the way they do things. If you cannot get enough people to agree with you and change the law, the only defensible position IMHO is to accept that they're not doing anything wrong according a reasonable definition of right and wrong, and they shouldn't be condemned for respecting their owners' interests. I'm sorry that wasn't clear in my earlier message.

LOL... many watch commercials and talk to CSR's. The majority of individuals want to believe what is advertised. When they call for "more info", what does one expect the CSR to tell you, the hidden truths (costs/caveats)? Ha!

No different than buying a major appliance or a car... get informed on your own, ask the right questions to get what you expect for the right price.

LINK (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=180850&site=cdn)

Essentially, the FCC has approved the use of embedded security in low-cost QAM tuners issued by cable companies to serve the needs of expanded basic cable consumers. The FCC evidently feels that many subscribers will benefit from greater low-cost access to advanced services through the availability of a less expensive converter box. (No one really benefits from forcing cable companies and cable subscribers to use higher-cost STBs for expanded basic cable networks.)

This waiver helps level the regulatory playing field, a small amount at least, between cable and satellite, which has been biased in satellite's favor for many years.

There is a down-side for some subscribers though: Cable companies have been considering a few options in the absence of the waiver. The temporary intention seems to generally be to rely on traps to secure the first level of advanced services (often called "expanded", including networks such as Disney, A&E, USA, FX, TNT, etc.) Traps are expensive to maintain, and therefore represent a significant cost of service, but the up-side of traps for consumers is that once you purchase access to a channel, you can receive that channel on every television in your home, with a tuner capable of tuning it in. With this waiver, the need for traps is relieved; instead that first level of advanced services can be secured with the DTA's privacy mode, which can be enabled and monitored remotely, representing much less cost. However, it means that QAM tuners without CableCARDs are unable to tune in these channels.

Despite this waiver, CableCARD still remains the means by which the industry complies with the federally-mandated requirement to allow consumers to use their own host devices. When considering the value of a QAM tuner a customer may own or purchase, whether it is stand-alone, embedded in a television, DVR, or PC card, a customer must always consider that the promise that that QAM tuner will work is limited to one signal service from each local broadcaster (and not necessarily the main-channel HD service), unless the QAM tuner is CableCARD capable and a CableCARD is installed and paired.

Figured that would only be a matter of time...

At least this will clear up a lot of arguments/disagreements, lol.

I know you're joking. :) If anything, this really pits consumer against consumer, since a very large number of the less techie consumers will benefit from getting expanded basic service on one of their two included ("free") DTAs, instead of having to pay extra for a STB. This is one of those cases where more advanced users have to defer to the needs of the overwhelmingly large group of less advanced users.

Have comcast, lost my cartoon network,
Family friend has coxs she lost turner classic movies, it seems this *******s decided it would be cool to pick the most liked channels and remove them and force us to pay for them.

NO, i agreed to pay x amount for my cable service, to force use to pay more is bullssss....

Can you say hello verizson fios, cheaper and i get all my channels suck on those balls greedy cable companies =)

Verizon FiOS already makes you put a box on every television already, Xander. Comcast is just playing catch-up, in that regard.

You might be one of those who benefit from this waiver, since with the waiver, you may just need to use a DTA, which is (would be) already included in what you already pay.

Have comcast, lost my cartoon network,
Family friend has coxs she lost turner classic movies, it seems this *******s decided it would be cool to pick the most liked channels and remove them and force us to pay for them.

NO, i agreed to pay x amount for my cable service, to force use to pay more is bullssss....

Can you say hello verizson fios, cheaper and i get all my channels suck on those balls greedy cable companies =)

Didn't read all the posts in this thread, but did Comcast offer a free set top box ("DTA") to get all the channels moving to digital? Call Comcast first.

With its digital packages, Comcast actually provides whatever equipment is needed to receive the channels that are part of the specific package, DTA or STB. (That's one of the advantages of the packages.) Where additional fees apply is when subscribers want additional outlets served, superior connections, DVRs, etc., or to use their own equipment (beyond one CableCARD-capable device).

. . . Family friend has coxs she lost turner classic movies, it seems this *******s decided it would be cool to pick the most liked channels and remove them and force us to pay for them.

NO, i agreed to pay x amount for my cable service, to force use to pay more is bullssss...

My bedroom's Comcast converter box is almost always tuned to Turner Classic Movies. In that room two Panasonic DMR-EZ17 DVD recorders split the Comcast converter box's composite output and one Philips 3575 HDD/DVD recorder takes the RF output. With its amplified RF pass through output that 3575 feeds a Magnavox 2160 HDD/DVD recorder in the next room. With its amplified RF pass through output that 2160 feeds a Panasonic DMR-EZ28 DVD recorder. That EZ28 recorder's RF pass through output feeds a third Panasonic DMR-EZ17 DVD recorder.

That's six DVD or HDD/DVD recorders set up to record Turner Classic Movies from a single Comcast converter box.

Currently, one Magnavox 2080 and two 2160 HDD/DVD recorders are set up to record clear QAM and one Philips 3576 is set up to record ATSC in these two rooms.

This two-room setup provides enormous flexibility and recording capacity.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=180850&site=cdn

Comcast can now enable privacy mode for the DTA. This means they can start encrypted expanded basic. Limited basic and local HD's will stay analog or in the clear. It's not full on encryption though.

I see alot was talked about my topic my comcast digital change is sept 15. I still like to know who has done the digital change and scanned there qam tuner to see what they are getting or did they block the qam channels in there area.

DigaDo,

You wrote that,

My bedroom's Comcast converter box is almost always tuned to Turner Classic Movies. In that room two Panasonic DMR-EZ17 DVD recorders split the Comcast converter box's composite output and one Philips 3575 HDD/DVD recorder takes the RF output. With its amplified RF pass through output that 3575 feeds a Magnavox 2160 HDD/DVD recorder in the next room. With its amplified RF pass through output that 2160 feeds a Panasonic DMR-EZ28 DVD recorder. That EZ28 recorder's RF pass through output feeds a third Panasonic DMR-EZ17 DVD recorder.

That's six DVD or HDD/DVD recorders set up to record Turner Classic Movies from a single Comcast converter box.

Currently, one Magnavox 2080 and two 2160 HDD/DVD recorders are also set up to record clear QAM and ATSC signals in these two rooms.

This two-room setup provides enormous flexibility and recording capacity.

Just to make sure (I'm no expert in these things):

You note that your converter box is almost always tuned to Turner Classic Movies. But suppose you wanted to watch TCM in bed while recording something else on, say, AMC. Does this setup allow you to watch one channel while recording a different channel, in the same room?

--JorgeA

This is one of those cases where more advanced users have to defer to the needs of the overwhelmingly large group of less advanced users.Annnnhhhh. But I don't wanna. Annnnhhhh.

It's supposed to be all about me. :p

DigaDo,

Just to make sure (I'm no expert in these things):

You note that your converter box is almost always tuned to Turner Classic Movies. But suppose you wanted to watch TCM in bed while recording something else on, say, AMC. Does this setup allow you to watch one channel while recording a different channel, in the same room?

--JorgeA

Watch AMC? Not since around 2001!

In my bedroom there are two TVs. Four of the recorders, as seen in the first photo, are connected to various inputs on a Westinghouse LCD "HD ready" TV. The TV's RF input is connected to the raw Comcast coax cable feed for viewing the remaining "analog" services in the 2-31 channel range. Three of the recorders (the Philips 3575 and both Panasonic DMR-EZ17 models) receive their signals from the Comcast Motorola DCT700 converter box; the fourth recorder, a Magnavox 2080, receives its clear QAM signal directly from the raw Comcast coax cable. (Since the photo was taken I've placed taller spacers between the recorders to provide better air circulation.) To the right of the recorders may be seen the Motorola DCT700 converter box and a portion of the Comcast Pace DC50X Digital Transport Adapter (DTA). The Westinghouse TV's remote switches between the several inputs.

The second photo shows the second TV, a RCA CRT, that receives its RF signal through the DTA that provides unscrambled extended basic viewing. The RCA's composite line input is fed from a Philips SWV2030/17AV 3-Input Video Switcher (composite and S-Video) where one composite input is from an unseen Magnavox 2160 connected directly to the raw Comcast coax cable for clear QAM reception, and another composite input is from a Sony DVD player. The Philips switch box sits atop the Sony DVD player.

Annnnhhhh. But I don't wanna. Annnnhhhh.

It's supposed to be all about me. :p
You're exactly right, the market is supposed to be about accommodating as many customers as possible, not about cramming us square pegs into round holes. The latter policy is typical for government bureaucrats -- and for private companies that haven't yet gotten a good spanking from the competitive process.

In my line of business, if I started requiring my customers to do things my way, or else pay more if they want it done their way -- I'd be out of business in the blink of an eye, with a few one-fingered salutes thrown in for good measure. It's about time Comcast and their ilk got the same message.

--JorgeA

"In my bedroom there are two TVs. Four of the recorders, as seen in the first photo, are connected to various inputs on a Westinghouse LCD "HD ready" TV. The TV's RF input is connected to the raw Comcast coax cable feed for viewing the remaining "analog" services in the 2-31 channel range. Three of the recorders (the Philips 3575 and both Panasonic DMR-EZ17 models) receive their signals from the Comcast Motorola DCT700 converter box; the fourth recorder, a Magnavox 2080, receives its clear QAM signal directly from the raw Comcast coax cable. (Since the photo was taken I've placed taller spacers between the recorders to provide better air circulation.) To the right of the recorders may be seen the Motorola DCT700 converter box and a portion of the Comcast Pace DC50X Digital Transport Adapter (DTA). The Westinghouse TV's remote switches between the several inputs.

The second photo shows the second TV, a RCA CRT, that receives its RF signal through the DTA that provides unscrambled extended basic viewing. The RCA's composite line input is fed from a Philips SWV2030/17AV 3-Input Video Switcher (composite and S-Video) where one composite input is from an unseen Magnavox 2160 connected directly to the raw Comcast coax cable for clear QAM reception, and another composite input is from a Sony DVD player. The Philips switch box sits atop the Sony DVD player."

DigaDo,

That's a VERY cool setup you've got there. I was going to ask you how the connections were organized, thanks for getting ahead of me!

Just two questions:

1) The Philips 3575 and both Panasonic machines receive their signal from the the Comcast converter box. Does that mean that you can only record the same channel on the three machines, or is there some way you can record different channels on them?

2) What will happen to your functionality if and when Comcast takes away the clear QAM channels?

This is extremely interesting. I reserve the option to ask more questions. ;)

Thanks again!

--JorgeA

[I]DigaDo,

That's a VERY cool setup you've got there. I was going to ask you how the connections were organized, thanks for getting ahead of me!

Just two questions:

1) The Philips 3575 and both Panasonic machines receive their signal from the the Comcast converter box. Does that mean that you can only record the same channel on the three machines, or is there some way you can record different channels on them?

2) What will happen to your functionality if and when Comcast takes away the clear QAM channels?

This is extremely interesting. I reserve the option to ask more questions. ;)

Thanks again!

--JorgeA

Jorge,

Yes, the Philips and two Panasonics are enslaved to the Comcast converter box. The Comcast converter box is usually tuned to TCM unless their programming is of little interest to me. At the moment the converter box is tuned to the Encore Western channel where one of the Panasonics is recording a Maverick episode. This evening, after a couple more Maverick episodes, the converter box will be back on TCM.

When Comcast takes away the clear QAM channels I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. My bedroom and home office setups will most likely be reconfigured at that time.

There are currently three TVs and five recorders in my home office. The first photo shows the home office stack of four recorders and a Sony DVD player. From the top, the Sony DVD player, a Philips 3576 connected OTA, a Magnavox 2160 receiving the RF pass through feed from the Philips 3575 in the bedroom, a Panasonic DMR-EZ28 receiving a RF pass through feed from the 2160 and a DMR-EZ17 receiving a RF pass through feed from the EZ28. There is an A/B RF coax switch at the right beside the DMR-EZ17 that allows that machine to be switched to a clear QAM feed. The DMR-EZ17 RF output directly feeds a Magnavox CRT TV to allow independent monitoring of the Comcast converter box feed from the bedroom. The Magnavox 2160 provides a direct component feed to a Dynex HD LCD TV. The Dynex TV also receives a raw Comcast coax cable feed for clear QAM reception. Photo two shows the home office switching, a Philips SWV2030/17 and a Pelican System Selector PL970 (disregard the front panel labels). All the home office recorders provide composite or S-Video outputs to the switches that feed the Dynex TV. Photo three shows another Magnavox 2160 (isolated under the table) connected to the raw Comcast coax cable for clear QAM reception. This 2160, in addition to the connection to a switch box, also feeds a RCA CRT, a twin to the one in the bedroom. Not seen in the photos are the three TVs, two Dell XP MCE computers and supplemental cooling fans, etc. (As with the bedroom stack I've switched to taller spacers between the recorders to improve air circulation.)

To anticipate another question, up to three Panasonics may be set up in a single stack as there are three machine and remote codes that may be set up on Panasonic recorders. The number stickers seen on the Panasonics indicate the control code for that recorder. One Magnavox and Philips recorder may be used in the same stack. If more than one Magnavox or Philips recorders is set up in the same room the recorder must be isolated from the other recorder of the same brand.

To anticipate another question, yes, I do a lot of archival time-shifting, currently averaging around 150 finalized DVDs per month. Photo four shows my archive of home recorded DVDs as of late June.

You're exactly right, the market is supposed to be about accommodating as many customers as possible, not about cramming us square pegs into round holes.This is sweet idealism, but the reality is the opposite. Remember, we're talking about a mass-market service, not a boutique service.

The latter policy is typical for government bureaucrats -- and for private companies that haven't yet gotten a good spanking from the competitive process.That's your opinion; you're entitled to be wrong. :)

In my line of business, if I started requiring my customers to do things my way, or else pay more if they want it done their way -- I'd be out of business in the blink of an eye, with a few one-fingered salutes thrown in for good measure.How many millions of customers do your company service each day?

Even my company, servicing hundreds of customers a day, doesn't map into the mass-market that Comcast operates in. Unless you're really a mass-market supplier (and I submit that if you were you wouldn't post what you've posted here), then your company's experience, like mine, doesn't apply.

bicker1,

"This is sweet idealism, but the reality is the opposite. Remember, we're talking about a mass-market service, not a boutique service.

"Even my company, servicing hundreds of customers a day, doesn't map into the mass-market that Comcast operates in. Unless you're really a mass-market supplier (and I submit that if you were you wouldn't post what you've posted here), then your company's experience, like mine, doesn't apply."

It is not mere idealism, it is what happens every day.

The company's size is irrelevant. If it starts treating its customers as faceless pawns with few or no differences among them in wishes and preferences, the company will start going the way of the dodo, unless propped up by subsidies or other privileges granted by government. Just ask GM and Chrysler: for years they kept turning out shoddy cookie-cutter autos, and buyers deserted them by the millions for Hondas and Toyotas. As a result they were in the most vulnerable position to weather the whipsaw events of the last year.

The most successful companies are those which do try to customize their offerings for as many different preferences as possible -- not those that cling rigidly to a lowest-common denominator, undifferentiated-customer approach. Speaking of "mass market" companies, consider Coca-Cola and Pepsico: instead of offering but one flavor in one size, they each offer a wide variety of products in a range of sizes and container types. The idea is to make it as convenient and attractive as possible for customers to choose their products.

This is the rule, not the exception. Take almost any industry in our (mostly) free-market economy, and you'll see the participants in it rushing to cater to the widest possible diversity of tastes with a sometimes dizzying array of features and combinations thereof -- lest they lose market share to someone else who will. MP3 players; computers; TVs; automobiles (yes); breakfast cereals; electric fans; book publishers and booksellers; footwear; lawnmowers; lighting fixtures; and so on and so on. Doing things with the customer's wishes in mind is not a guarantee of success; but failing to accommodate the diverse tastes of customers well-nigh guarantees failure.

If Coke or Pepsi behaved like Comcast, they'd offer one single flavor (digital) in a handful of sizes ("tiers") in the name of servicing the mythical "mass market." Oh, and you'd have to use their own bottle opener to drink their beverages.

"...you're entitled to be wrong."

You certainly are.

--JorgeA

DigaDo,

What a wonderfully elaborate setup! :cool: Thanks for the details re: connections. I'm learning a ton about what can be done. I've printed out the photos for future reference.

Do you use the multiple recording machines enslaved to the cable box in the bedroom for dubbing? I'm not really clear on the reason for having more than one recorder hooked up to the same cable box, since only one channel at a time can be seen or recorded through it (AFAIK).

Thanks once again for all the helpful explanations.

--JorgeA

It is not mere idealism, it is what happens every day.But it isn't. Just read the news, read these threads, etc. You want the world to work that way. It doesn't. I'm sorry.

The company's size is irrelevant.No one said it did. What matters is the size of the consumer-base. The mass-market works because it defines products that exploit the fact that so many people all will be satisfied with a certain offering. By capitalizing on economies of scale not available with serving smaller markets, mass-market suppliers are able to operate more profitably.

The mass-market does often leave niche markets effectively unserved or at least underserved. As a result niche marketers often provide alternatives. In the case of television entertainment, you can consider waiting for the Blu-ray disc to be a niche market reflecting servicing of a market segment underserved by the mass-market served by the broadcasters and subscription television service providers.

The most successful companies ...Comcast is one of the most successful companies, so your points along those lines are obviously not reflective of how things really are.

You're exactly right, the market is supposed to be about accommodating as many customers as possible, not about cramming us square pegs into round holes.


That is how Comcast operates, though. Most of their customers happily accept the DTAs or whatever and get on with their life. Just like OTA viewers did with converter boxes. Yes, you had a few vocal opponents, but the transition rolled over them and happened whether they liked it or not. Comcast has already tested the DTAs and is rolling them out. If they thought it would result in a loss of a lot of customers, they would have already seen it and you can bet they would not have gone forward.

We here at AVS forums are the square pegs. We're the ones who don't like these band-aids and know the advantages of clear QAM. Joe Average who takes his box and happily continues watching his shows doesn't even know what clear QAM is. And that's the market Comcast is geared up for.

DigaDo,

What a wonderfully elaborate setup! :cool: Thanks for the details re: connections. I'm learning a ton about what can be done. I've printed out the photos for future reference.

Do you use the multiple recording machines enslaved to the cable box in the bedroom for dubbing? I'm not really clear on the reason for having more than one recorder hooked up to the same cable box, since only one channel at a time can be seen or recorded through it (AFAIK).

Thanks once again for all the helpful explanations.

--JorgeA

With the four Panasonics (for direct to DVD recordings) and one Philips and one Magnavox (both hard drive recorders), all directly (or pass through) enslaved to the Comcast converter box, there is enough capacity for a tandem recording strategy that may provide 'round the clock recording for several days running, if necessary, and allows spaced-out disc swapping for the Panasonic recorders. The Philips and Magnavox hard drive recorders have great recording capacity, editing, and high-speed dubbing features. These HDD/DVD recorders are always set to record to their hard drives where the recordings may subsequently be edited and high-speed dubbed to DVD. High-speed dubbing greatly reduces laser use extending the laser's life. These six machines are the current "workhorse" recorders.

The four Philips and Magnavox HDD/DVD recorders set up for clear QAM and ATSC reception are utilized for daily or incidental recordings. The Magnavox 2080 (clear QAM) and Philips 3576 (ATSC) are the most frequently used of these recorders. The other two Magnavox 2160 HDD/DVD recorders are set up for incidental (clear QAM) use, especially when there are scheduling conflicts, or they may be reconnected to stand-in for Panasonic recorders during service intervals or in the event of a functional failure.

In the last week a recently-serviced daily use Panasonic DMR-EZ17 had a laser assembly failure at around 1,523 recording hours. A standby DMR-EZ17, with an unreliable tuner but a DVD Drive with only around 239 recording hours, was quickly set up, configured and the next recording was scheduled. The next day the completed disc was finalized, these two EZ17 DVD Drives were swapped and the daily use recorder was returned to service. The standby EZ17 machine is now a non-functional "parts machine."

DigaDo,

What a wonderfully elaborate setup! :cool: Thanks for the details re: connections. I'm learning a ton about what can be done. I've printed out the photos for future reference.

JorgeA,

Yesterday I made some minor changes in the bedroom set up, moving the DTA over next to the RCA TV and beside the Philips switch. Since the TV is mono the right audio output connections are not utilized. I snapped new pictures.

In the home office I snapped new pictures of the main stack and held up the Philips switch to show the current connections.

A few of the new photos are attached:

DigaDo,

Thanks for the updates, and for the explanation for the multiple enslaved recorders. You really do love your TCM!

But really, this is such an inventive setup and you've given me a much better idea of what one can do. Wow.

--JorgeA

That is how Comcast operates, though. Most of their customers happily accept the DTAs or whatever and get on with their life. Just like OTA viewers did with converter boxes. Yes, you had a few vocal opponents, but the transition rolled over them and happened whether they liked it or not. Comcast has already tested the DTAs and is rolling them out. If they thought it would result in a loss of a lot of customers, they would have already seen it and you can bet they would not have gone forward.

We here at AVS forums are the square pegs. We're the ones who don't like these band-aids and know the advantages of clear QAM. Joe Average who takes his box and happily continues watching his shows doesn't even know what clear QAM is. And that's the market Comcast is geared up for.

Tulpa,

I understand. I can report, though, that when our township finally approved FiOS last month, there was loud and long applause in the room. I'd never seen anything like it at a township meeting.

No one I know who's had the choice of staying with Comcast or going to Verizon, has chosen to stay with Comcast. Over time we'll see just how successful Comcast, with its one-size-fits-all approach, turns out to be in an increasingly competitive market.

We may be square pegs, but it's knowledgeable and engaged consumers like us who keep otherwise complacent companies on their toes.

--JorgeA

Or experience substantial frustration and bitter disappointment when industries place the priorities of the mainstream higher. :shrug:

that when our township...


...I'd never seen anything like it at a township meeting.

No one I know who's had the choice of staying with Comcast or going to Verizon, has chosen to stay with Comcast.


Again, you're using anecdotal evidence and trying to apply it to the mainstream. Your township. People you know. As much as we like to portray big companies as stupid bottom line entities (NEW COKE 4 LYFE, DAWG!), they're really smart in addressing widespread needs of millions, something you and I probably wouldn't have a prayer of comprehending. Not because we're stupid, but because we're not a huge company like Comcast that deals with this stuff every single day for decades.

Or experience substantial frustration and bitter disappointment when industries place the priorities of the mainstream higher. :shrug:

bicker1,

You write as if the normal tendency for private business were to shoehorn everyone into the same narrow range of choices. But to make such an assertion in this day and age amounts to willful, dogmatic ignorance.

Gone are the days when a Henry Ford could quip that everyone can have a car of whatever color they want, as long as it's black. The trend in markets is toward GREATER choice and customization, not less; toward an increasing, not a decreasing, degree of accommodation by sellers to trhe diverse desires of buyers. There is no particular reason (other than its status as a municipally anointed monopoly) why Comcast should be immune to this process.

As I pointed out the other day, companies both large and small put out an enormous and growing array of choices to appeal to ever more specific segments of their markets. Back then I gave you ten different "mass market" industries where we enjoy broad choice. I will now give you ten more: stereo speakers; kitchen utensils; calculators; nutritional supplements; drinking glasses, cups, and mugs; restaurants and eateries; paper; detergent; trousers; eyeglasses.

To take televisions as just one example: It used to be that, when they first came out, those armoire-sized sets featuring tiny black-and-white screens adequately served the market. Television was a novel enough phenomenon that we had no interest in (or even any concept of) the possibility of more elaborate systems. But over time TV manufacturers discovered that many of their customers would rather have bigger screens in smaller boxes, while many other customers desired even smaller screens if they could carry them to the beach. Instead of taking the attitude of, "tough luck, we serve the 'mass market,' and you're not 'mass' enough," they have hustled to create a growing selection of more narrowly tailored products.

Over the years TV makers introduced a growing array of features, including color, fine tuning, and stereo sound. Then whole new technologies came into play to supplement the original cathode-ray tube. Today we have LCDs, plasma, projection sets; and we can get them in screen sizes from a few inches to several feet wide. Moreover, we can hook them up to an unprecedented variety of recording machines and media.

The upshot is that there is no longer a "mainstream" to speak of: The interplay between buyers and sellers, and among competitors trying to win one another's customers, broke it down into a wide variety of choices more closely reflecting the reality of consumer diversity.

The truth of the matter is that, as industries develop, "mass markets" give way to growing customization -- except for industries that are operated or (like Comcast's, historically) protected by government. Virtually everyone else learns over time that the idea of the "mainstream," made up of faceless consumers happy with whatever standard bone is thrown at them, is a sheer fiction, and one dangerous to the bottom line. Sooner or later, sellers discover that the market is actually comprised of individuals each with his or her own set of tastes and preferences; and so they try to cater to a growing variety of ever more specific segments, lest somebody else do it first and erode their customer base. The result is the cornucopia of choices and features that we enjoy today.

You continue to insist that Comcast and their ilk somehow represent how markets "really" work; but there are no grounds for confidence on this point. For many years shielded by law from competition, Comcast is an anomalous actor, as its choice-limiting behavior runs against the historical trend seen in virtually every other "mass market." You seem to think that the exception is the rule. Talk to me again in twenty years, and we'll see if Comcast is even still around -- or if, for the sake of survival, it has, like most everyone else, been disciplined by competition into becoming an enterprise that's increasingly responsive to diverse preferences.

Of course, you may continue to believe otherwise. I almost expect it: Your "shrug," at the end of your post, suggests I am addressing someone who regularly relates to the public in a way akin to that in which Cuban apparatchiks relate to the shoppers who stand in line for hours at the grocery store, only to encounter nearly empty shelves upon finally getting in.

--JorgeA

I have Comcast in Chicago suburbs and we are going to DTAs for accessing expanded basic channels after they are converted to digiital. Currently I just have my cable go directly to the RF input on a Panasonic EH50 dvd recorder. So when this change to digital takes place, I assume I won't be able to access these channels? If I connect the DTA, it says I have to tune the tv to channel 3; this piece of garbage only has RF in & out terminals, no RCA composite or s-video. So will I even be able to do recordings on the EH50 with the tv guide? I have the IR emitter, but will it change the channel on the DTA when a program is scheduled to record? The manual mentions the IR blaster is to change channels on a STB to get the tv guide info.

You write as if the normal tendency for private business were to shoehorn everyone into the same narrow range of choices.No, not at all. Rather the point is that they often do, but even more importantly, they exact a very high premium when something is worth so much more to a customer because the availability of what they want is so limited, because there is so little money to be made. Essentially, the difference between patronizing the mass-market and patronizing a niche market is that with the mass-market you're far more likely to benefit as a consumer from the economies of scale, which affects both availability and pricing. What I see, so often, is instances where folks are expressing unreasonable dissatisfaction with a niche market because they also don't benefit from similar economies of scale. That was the context of my statement that perhaps wasn't clear enough for you.

You continue to insist that Comcast and their ilk somehow represent how markets "really" work; but there are no grounds for confidence on this point.Except the fact that it is the reality that you and everyone else will encounter. And this is really the problem I see with what you're trying to say. You're presenting your hopes and dreams as if they were either inevitable or should be. You're setting yourself up, along with anyone who signs onto your idealism, for dissatisfaction, and disappointment. How does that help anyone?

Of course, you may continue to believe otherwise. I almost expect it: Your "shrug," at the end of your post, suggests I am addressing someone who regularly relates to the public in a way akin to that in which Cuban apparatchiks relate to the shoppers who stand in line for hours at the grocery store, only to encounter nearly empty shelves upon finally getting in.Your self-serving personal attack is inappropriate, and rude.

I see alot was talked about my topic my comcast digital change is sept 15. I still like to know who has done the digital change and scanned there qam tuner to see what they are getting or did they block the qam channels in there area.

We are in the midst of the transition now.

I believe (although I haven't confirmed 100%), that I still have just about all of my former channels on my digital QAM-equipped TV. They're all over the place right now; 68-1,2,3,4,5,6,7...; 86-1,2,3,4,5,6,7... But I think, for the most part, they are "there".

My question: the "old" channels now bring up a warning message that a digital device is required. Will COMCAST ever re-map the new digital channels back to their old locations?

Hate to have to use the DTA on a TV that was working so well, and so clean, without any "box".

We are in the midst of the transition now.

I believe (although I haven't confirmed 100%), that I still have just about all of my former channels on my digital QAM-equipped TV. They're all over the place right now; 68-1,2,3,4,5,6,7...; 86-1,2,3,4,5,6,7... But I think, for the most part, they are "there".

My question: the "old" channels now bring up a warning message that a digital device is required. Will COMCAST ever re-map the new digital channels back to their old locations?

Hate to have to use the DTA on a TV that was working so well, and so clean, without any "box".

I get the message on my old channels but not on the QAM channels. My parents got the new digital box it is very slow to change channels It freezes then goes to the next channel, The channels are mapped with the old numbers just in digital they look better. The sound is crap mono sound. I hope they leave the QAM channels I can label my QAM channels with the name of the channel so 109-45 can say TNT. The slow channel crap will get old fast.

Later

I get the message on my old channels but not on the QAM channels.

Because the QAM (Digital) channels are what the DTA uses, as well.

My parents got the new digital box it is very slow to change channels It freezes then goes to the next channel,

That is how it works. In fact, my DTA, Comcast Moto DVR, and QAM tuner all freeze changing channels. I think, though, the DTA freezes for a little more time.

The channels are mapped with the old numbers just in digital they look better. The sound is crap mono sound.

I hope they leave the QAM channels I can label my QAM channels with the name of the channel so 109-45 can say TNT. The slow channel crap will get old fast.

You mean leave them in the clear. They were going to do so, and move them to the same frequencies that the Analogs had been using, (thus making use of the existing filters for non-Expd. Basic customers), but they got a waiver to use the encryption technology in the DTA, thus they won't be in the clear soon. So, only HD and SD Ltd. Basic will be in the clear. The only way to get SD Expd. Basic w/o a Comcast box will be to use a QAM CableCard tuner; which would get all services, SD and HD, to which one subscribes.

Is it possible to block some of the channels on the DTA? Thanks.

It is now.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=180850&site=cdn

I think the poster may have been asking if one could block some channels in addition to the one's that are blocked by the DTA as a matter of course. Like setting up a favorites list, only those selected would pass through.

I was actually asking how I could block undesired chanels on the DX50. Admittedly, I did not word my question clearly, but the link was very interesting, also.

Correction, the model number is DC50X

comcast Baltimore county Maryland
I did it by just hunting channel by channel, no promises on its correctness ..


76-1 weta
76-2 univison
76-4 fox45
76-6 abc
76-7 tbs
76-9 tnt
76-10 vs
76-11 tru
76-15 whut
76-24 CW
77-101 bet
77-102 cartoon
77-103 comedy
77-104 mtv
77-105 disney
77-106 nick
77-107 syfy
77-108 AMC
77-109 discovery
77-110 TLC
77-111 vh1
77-112 usa
91-1 Weather Scan
91-2 tele
94-3 goltv
94-5 bio
94-7 sprout
95-2 Kids Info
95-3 Central info
95-4 News info
95-8 Sports info
100-1 nfl
100-3 Nbc-shop
100-11 spanish sports
100-15 public
100-16 Art
100-18 weather
100-19 education
100-21 comcast
100-22 tv guide
101-13 MPT
101-14 nbc
101-15 wutb
101-16 cbs
101-19 ion
101-21 csn
101-22 espn
101-23 espn2
104-13 hist int
105-5 preview
106-201 CSPAN
106-202 Cspan2
106-203 animal
106-204 travel
106-205 tv one
106-206 Disc-health
106-207 cnn
106-208 golf
106-209 HSN
106-210 QVC
106-212 HL News
107-1 tv land
107-3 ae
107-4 spike
107-5 life
107-6 fx
107-7 tcm
107-14 tbm
107-20 wgn
108-1 masn
108-2 cnbc
108-3 hist
108-4 cmt
108-5 msnbc
108-7 g4
108-9 CSN+
108-111 hallmark
109-1 food
109-3 style
109-4 hgtv
109-5 speed
109-6 foxnews
109-9 abc fam
109-12 E!
109-22 bravo
111-2 word
111-4 lifetime movie
111-6 cspan3
112-15 ewtn
114-14 Hallmark movie
115-4 shopping
115-60 bloomberg
116-1 day

Meh comcast always gave me a tough time i switched to verizon and i cant say the fios tv is better but the internet is incredible.