I am kind of surprised that people here seem to think Blu-ray is so niche.

That said, Redbox has made official announcements (back in November) regarding Blu-ray.


Redbox kiosks introduces $1 Blu-ray rentals!

Redbox will start stocking some of its machines at Wal-Mart stores and other retail outlets with Blu-ray Disc titles, following smaller competitor DVDPlay's decision to do the same last June.

Redbox, the largest U.S. movie-rental kiosk operator, will include Blu-ray titles in machines at "select locations in a limited number of markets nationwide," said Gary Lancina, VP of marketing at Redbox, who declined to specify how many machines will have Blu-ray discs or the size Redbox's Blu-ray inventory. Redbox will charge $1 for a daily rental fee, the same price as standard-definition disc rentals.

The kiosks will carry Blu-ray titles from a variety of studios, with Paramount Home Entertainment's Tropic Thunder, Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment's WALL•E and Universal Studios Home Entertainment's Hellboy II: The Golden Army promoted on the Redbox Web site.

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/redbox-kiosks-introduces-1-blu-ray-rentals/6161

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6617314.html

Fortunately for Blu-ray, Redbox is indeed continuing to expand their Blu-ray operations.

Coinstar chairman Paul Davis, in a conference call with investors Aug. 4, said Redbox is in discussions with several other studios, hoping to ink more deals similar to the one signed in late July with Sony Pictures Home Entertainment.

"We clearly understand the importance of fostering a collaborative relationship with the studios," Davis said, adding that more video game and Blu-ray Disc rentals, and a broader selection of DVDs, were in Redbox's immediate plans.

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/redbox-profit-grows-as-execs-at-coinstar-eye-more-studio-deals/6899

There was recent info that showed Redbox averaged $2.15 per DVD rental. My Blu-ray rental via Netflix, now Blockbuster, has been $1.92 per title. That is delivered to the door. It just seems Blu-ray owners are more tech savvy and know how to obtain the best return on the dollar or they do not mind paying more for a rental at the local B&M outlet.

As the Blu-ray market grows and becomes more mainstream it would seem logical they will become available in kiosks. For that to happen may take a few years.

There was recent info that showed Redbox averaged $2.15 per DVD rental. My Blu-ray rental via Netflix, now Blockbuster, has been $1.92 per title. That is delivered to the door. It just seems Blu-ray owners are more tech savvy and know how to obtain the best return on the dollar or they do not mind paying more for a rental at the local B&M outlet.

As the Blu-ray market grows and becomes more mainstream it would seem logical they will become available in kiosks. For that to happen may take a few years.

If the average rental rate for Blu-rays was lower than for DVDs then the studios would be looking to limit Blu-ray rentals. It would be ridiculous for them to encourage Blu-ray rentals otherwise (less revenue at higher cost does not make good business).

As it stands, the latest news I have read is studios setting up revenue sharing for Blu-ray rentals.


To get things somewhat back on topic... Redbox is changing the face of physical media value (including Blu-ray).

If the average rental rate for Blu-rays was lower than for DVDs then the studios would be looking to limit Blu-ray rentals. It would be ridiculous for them to encourage Blu-ray rentals otherwise (less revenue at higher cost does not make good business).

As it stands, the latest news I have read is studios setting up revenue sharing for Blu-ray rentals.


To get things somewhat back on topic... Redbox is changing the face of physical media value (including Blu-ray).
How is RB changing the value of BD?

They don't seem to even want to admit to the existence of BD in the kiosk system?

How is RB changing the value of BD?

They don't seem to even want to admit to the existence of BD in the kiosk system?

I suggest doing some basic research on studio execs comments about Redbox (including reading this thread), and stop ignoring that Redbox has piloted Blu-ray and is looking to expand that pilot as Blu-ray warms up with the consumer.

The basic issue is that First Sale Doctrine allows anyone to rent and re-sell physical media at any price they desire. If a company (like Redbox) can be profitable renting physical media at $1/night and reselling titles at $7 (a few weeks after release) then it impacts the value of the content for consumers.

It appears that Netflix is feeling the pinch revenue-sharing and other cost. Story here (http://www.homemediamagazine.com/netflix/netflix-gets-100m-credit-line-17116).

Netflix executives in recent conference calls have alluded to the growing expense surrounding procuring content for its Watch Instantly streaming service, in addition to efforts by studios — notably Warner Home Video — to revisit revenue-sharing agreements, including higher license fees.

I suggest doing some basic research on studio execs comments about Redbox (including reading this thread), and stop ignoring that Redbox has piloted Blu-ray and is looking to expand that pilot as Blu-ray warms up with the consumer.

The basic issue is that First Sale Doctrine allows anyone to rent and re-sell physical media at any price they desire. If a company (like Redbox) can be profitable renting physical media at $1/night and reselling titles at $7 (a few weeks after release) then it impacts the value of the content for consumers.
Doing basic searches on RB and BD turns up very few references. The RB web site says nothing about RB media pilots at any sites.

So again I ask, how is RB changing the value of BD?

Do you actually have info or are you just using the space to talk about the decline of physical media.
There is no need to repost the first sale doctrine, we all understand that and the hornets nest it stirred with the studios.

It appears that Netflix is feeling the pinch revenue-sharing and other cost. Story here (http://www.homemediamagazine.com/netflix/netflix-gets-100m-credit-line-17116).

I am glad you brought this up!!

Netflix is wisely opening a line of credit to take advantage of market opportunities. With the massive earnings growth they are seeing from their investments, it makes sense to have cash available to take advantage of deals that may be presented by studios to expand their offering.

Netflix will boost third-quarter earnings and sales by at least 20% from a year earlier, marking at least the fourth consecutive quarter for such gains, as the largest U.S. movie-rental service via mail continues to improve its financial results by expanding its video-streaming service, the company’s financial chief said today.

Netflix in July forecast third-quarter earnings of about $25 million on sales of about $419 million, both representing a 23% increase from year-earlier results. The company’s second-quarter earnings jumped 22% from a year earlier after Netflix boosted its sales and expanded its subscriber base by 21% and 26%, respectively.

“I don’t foresee in any of the scenarios we run related to the business that is going to disappoint investors,” McCarthy said today. “We’re pretty optimistic of the current trajectory of the business based on the success we’re having.”

Netflix, which is set to release third-quarter earnings next month, has been augmenting its DVD-by-mail service by expanding both the number of its digital titles and the number of electronic components that can play them on TVs. About a third of new subscribers to Netflix, which offers more than 12,000 of its approximately 100,000 titles in digital form, are previous customers who had canceled their subscriptions but were lured back largely by the expanded digital offering, according to McCarthy.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6695512.html


As you can see, their growth is strong and will only get stronger with wise investments:

Reuters: How far along are we on the transition to all digital video watching?
Hastings: There will be people doing DVD-by-mail in 15 or 20 years, so I think DVD will last a long time. Our best guess is that DVD will peak for us in 5 or so years. But it is continuing to grow. And the streaming is exploding. So we are getting nice growth in the DVD side and huge growth on the streaming side.

http://blogs.reuters.com/mediafile/2009/09/21/netflix-ceo-reed-hastings-on-xbox-youtube-etc/

Doing basic searches on RB and BD turns up very few references. The RB web site says nothing about RB media pilots at any sites.

So again I ask, how is RB changing the value of BD?

Do you actually have info or are you just using the space to talk about the decline of physical media.
There is no need to repost the first sale doctrine, we all understand that and the hornets nest it stirred with the studios.

First Sale Doctrine is at the heart of the issue for studios. The fact that there is nothing that studios can do to prevent Redbox or other kiosks from obtaining, renting and reselling their content at any price they choose IS what is devaluing media. As DVD is devalued it impacts Blu-ray since the value offering of BD becomes more difficult to sell without lowering Blu-ray prices.

Blu-ray is already being offered by Redbox, albeit not at a mass-level yet. Blu-ray offerings at Redbox will obviously expand as Blu-ray becomes more mainstream. Then Blu-ray value will also be directly impacted in more markets (beyond the impact from DVD's devaluation).

Netflix is wisely opening a line of credit to take advantage of market opportunities. With the massive earnings growth they are seeing from their investments, it makes sense to have cash available to take advantage of deals that may be presented by studios to expand their offering.What a load of BS. Netflix is borrowing money because of the increased expense of revenue sharing and the cost of streaming.

First Sale DoctrineYou post reminds me of some 33⅓ LPs I used to have :D

Blu-ray is already being offered by RedboxShow me where and how to rent a Blu-ray at a Redbox. There are 10 locations for 39211. In fact, pick any location you like and show me how to rent a Blu-ray title at a Redbox.

Show me where and how to rent a Blu-ray at a Redbox. There are 10 locations for 39211. In fact, pick any location you like and show me how to rent a Blu-ray title at a Redbox.

The RB at our Walmart has them. I haven't used RB for awhile there but I assume they still do. Unfortunately it wasn't easy to identify them, but I could tell by the cover art (had the blue border).

I remember I got Tropic Thunder, Journey to the Center of the Earth, and Wall-E all on Blu-Ray from there.

Like I said, I haven't used it for awhile due to Netflix keeping my busy, but they definitely have them. Just wish they'd update their site to identify the kiosks carrying them or at least the titles.

What a load of BS. Netflix is borrowing money because of the increased expense of revenue sharing and the cost of streaming.

Really? Can you show me the details from their SEC filings (or any analysts reports) that show them losing money on operations? Have fun.

Everything I have read (and posted) shows their business booming and them posting solid profits.

EDIT: I should point out that the increase in streaming investments has resulted in increased EARNINGS (not just sales/revenue). That means they are growing for the future while growing earnings quarter over quarter.


Granted they are making other investments that might require a line of credit:

The largest U.S. movie-rental service via mail, which suffered an outage to its video-streaming service last night, said late last week that it would buy back as much as $300 million in stock, or about 11% of its market value, by the end of next year. The announcement follows its January plan to reacquire as much as $175 million in shares.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6675765.html


As Reed Hastings himself put it:

we are getting nice growth in the DVD side and huge growth on the streaming side.

You post reminds me of some 33⅓ LPs I used to have :D

Show me where and how to rent a Blu-ray at a Redbox. There are 10 locations for 39211. In fact, pick any location you like and show me how to rent a Blu-ray title at a Redbox.

People have already reported having Blu-ray at Redbox. Redbox themselves have stated their plans to expand the offering.

And people who want Blu-ray to succeed better hope they do. Blu-ray can't grow to mass market rental levels without Redbox.


As far as repetition of the First Sale Doctrine info... absolutely nothing has changed to negate the impact of First Sale Doctrine on physical media. And yet people are still asking why Redbox does and will continue to impact the value of physical media. Until something changes (and as long as people try to close their eyes and pretend the issue is not real), then I will post the info so that people understand the impact.

If Redbox (or Blockbuster Express) wants to have any success with Blu-ray then they will need to make it easier than going to each individual location to see what the Blu-Ray selection is. From Redbox:


Hello Mr. Breland,

Thank you for your email. In order to see the Blu-Ray selection that we have available, you would need to visit the kiosk in your area. Every machine has a different selection and unfortunately you will not be able to see that on the website.

If you have any additional questions, comments, or concerns, please let us know and anyone in customer service would be more than happy to assist you.

Thank you,
Silvia
Redbox Customer Care
1.866.REDBOX3
www.redbox.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wrbreland@yahoo.com
Subject: Redbox Information Request Form

Name: Wendell Breland
Email: wrbreland@yahoo.com
City:
State:
ZipCode: 39211
Rental Location: address or cross streets
DVD Rented:
Card Used: last 4 digits

Message: Sir or Madam I have 2 Blu-ray players and I’m only interested in Blu-ray titles. You list 10 locations for 39211 but I can not find a way to search for Blu-ray titles. How do I find Blu-ray titles? Thank you.

^^^

Call it . . . . Pot Luck. :D

A few more have spotted BD:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801764

A few more have spotted BD:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801764

It would be a bad sign for Blu-ray adoption if Redbox was not actively expanding their Blu-ray footprint.

Redbox is a game changing force for physical media, and since physical media is so damn big, for the entire home entertainment purchase and rental market. The success of Redbox requires the studio to understand the impact on content value in the market (both for rental and sell through due to the used market) and to react in a way to protect their revenue and/or cut their costs to protect (or grow) their overall margins.

It would be a bad sign for Blu-ray adoption if Redbox was not actively expanding their Blu-ray footprint.

Redbox is a game changing force for physical media, and since physical media is so damn big, for the entire home entertainment purchase and rental market. The success of Redbox requires the studio to understand the impact on content value in the market (both for rental and sell through due to the used market) and to react in a way to protect their revenue and/or cut their costs to protect (or grow) their overall margins.


Blu ray is going to fly Red Box or not. BD adoption is well on track to replace DVD in two years. I think Red Box needs BD more than the other way around.

Blu ray is going to fly Red Box or not. BD adoption is well on track to replace DVD in two years. I think Red Box needs BD more than the other way around.

2 years huh?

:rolleyes:

Blu ray is going to fly Red Box or not. BD adoption is well on track to replace DVD in two years. I think Red Box needs BD more than the other way around.

Not with Redbox's projected growth. Blu-ray would hit a significant growth wall if they were not involved in a method responsible for a large (and growing) percentage of the rental market.

That said, it is in Redbox's interest to support Blu-ray, and that is why they already are supporting it and increasing the Blu-ray presence in their kiosks.

2 years huh?

:rolleyes:


Yep xmas 2011, care to wager on it?

Another possible sign of the Redbox impact on physical media.

WSJ: Wal-Mart Scaling Back DVD Displays

In an ominous sign for packaged-media retail, Wal-Mart Stores is reportedly scaling back the number of freestanding displays carrying studio Blu-ray Disc and standard DVD releases, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Push back by the Bentonville, Ark.-based retail behemoth, the largest retailer of DVD movies, could prove costly to Hollywood studios that derive much of their bottom line from retail packaged-media sales.

Dubbed “Project Impact,” Wal-Mart this year has emphasized storewide efforts to simplify product offerings; remodel stores; increase consumer electronics products, including HDTVs and Blu-ray players; and reduce the amount of clutter in store aisles.

Analysts speculate the reduction in floor space devoted to DVD movies could signal Wal-Mart’s retrenchment regarding packaged media.

"We think the new strategy implies Wal-Mart no longer sees DVDs and Blu-ray discs as traffic drivers," J.P. Morgan analyst Imran Khan told the Journal.

Half this thread is BS and the other half is pure speculation

If you get your dvds at WalMart or 7 eleven you may find a redbox one day

You may find blurays at the car wash one day too


why 2-3 people think this is news today I don't get

Another possible sign of the Redbox impact on physical media.
Well in the first case, WM does a p*ss poor job w/ BD. Selection stinks. Prices are...meh.
They have adequate space for dvds in aisle fixtures but litter the electronics area w/ freestanding dvd displays. It looks like a frigin' big lots store.

Now you would think that "analysts" that get paid big money to figure things out that mere mortals like us can't begin to understand would read the following and understand: Dubbed “Project Impact,” Wal-Mart this year has emphasized storewide efforts to simplify product offerings; remodel stores; increase consumer electronics products, including HDTVs and Blu-ray players; and reduce the amount of clutter in store aisles.

Well in the first case, WM does a p*ss poor job w/ BD. Selection stinks. Prices are...meh.
They have adequate space for dvds in aisle fixtures but litter the electronics area w/ freestanding dvd displays. It looks like a frigin' big lots store.

Now you would think that "analysts" that get paid big money to figure things out that mere mortals like us can't begin to understand would read the following and understand: Dubbed “Project Impact,” Wal-Mart this year has emphasized storewide efforts to simplify product offerings; remodel stores; increase consumer electronics products, including HDTVs and Blu-ray players; and reduce the amount of clutter in store aisles.

Physical media is clutter in the aisles?

Physical media is clutter in the aisles?
Do your research on Project Impact and the answer to your question about aisles and clutter will be clear to you.

Fox files motion to dismiss Redbox suit

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6699874.html?desc=topstory

Do your research on Project Impact and the answer to your question about aisles and clutter will be clear to you.

It looks like the goals of Project Impact is to improve the look and feel of stores by reducing or eliminating under-performing sections. From what I read, magazines were hardest hit (as many titles simply were not turning a profit) and they have extended that to DVD and Blu-ray.

It is certainly a trend that losing retail space at Wal-mart impacts sales of suppliers. This will certainly not help the studios sales during an already difficult time.

Warner also seeks Redbox lawsuit dismissal

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6700020.html

It looks like the goals of Project Impact is to improve the look and feel of stores by reducing or eliminating under-performing sections. From what I read, magazines were hardest hit (as many titles simply were not turning a profit) and they have extended that to DVD and Blu-ray.

It is certainly a trend that losing retail space at Wal-mart impacts sales of suppliers. This will certainly not help the studios sales during an already difficult time.
You got the "improve the look and feel" part of the research right....Keep going...there's more...alot more. It will help if you let go of the physical media is doomed mantra.

By the way, magazines are some of the worst profit items for retailers and always have been.

You got the "improve the look and feel" part of the research right....Keep going...there's more...alot more. It will help if you let go of the physical media is doomed mantra.

By the way, magazines are some of the worst profit items for retailers and always have been.

Exactly. They are trying to attract (and keep) a higher income customer by clearing out items that do not need as much space since they are not generating the sales they desire. Magazine were heavily impacted (reduced and moved to back of store) and it looks like DVDs and Blu-rays will also be taken out of traffic areas.

BTW, I have never stated that physical media is doomed. People may try and use that as a strawman, but I have repeatedly stated that Blu-ray is growing and that physical media will have a significant footprint in home video for quite some time. That does not change the market reality that physical media is currently in decline. I certainly believe that Blu-ray will never be as ubiquitous as DVD is today.

When all is said and done, the only issue is some people taking news and facts about the contraction of the physical media market personally. It is nothing more than a way to distribute content. That content will be delivered in different ways, and likely will provide consumers with greater quality and convenience as technology matures.

Another possible sign of the Redbox impact on physical media. WSJ: Wal-Mart Scaling Back DVD Displays

In an ominous sign for packaged-media retail, Wal-Mart Stores is reportedly scaling back the number of freestanding displays carrying studio Blu-ray Disc and standard DVD releases, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Push back by the Bentonville, Ark.-based retail behemoth, the largest retailer of DVD movies, could prove costly to Hollywood studios that derive much of their bottom line from retail packaged-media sales.

Dubbed “Project Impact,” Wal-Mart this year has emphasized storewide efforts to simplify product offerings; remodel stores; increase consumer electronics products, including HDTVs and Blu-ray players; and reduce the amount of clutter in store aisles.

Analysts speculate the reduction in floor space devoted to DVD movies could signal Wal-Mart’s retrenchment regarding packaged media.

"We think the new strategy implies Wal-Mart no longer sees DVDs and Blu-ray discs as traffic drivers," J.P. Morgan analyst Imran Khan told the Journal.

Walmart is scaling back most of their inventory due to loss of business and trying to put on a new "face" for the public after the backlash of employee dissatisfaction and public outrage with their hiring/paygrade practices.
If you haven't noticed, they have been remodeling all Walmart's with the new layout, which have large(width) isles.
There's a program running on the History channel describing these very changes and inventory reduction of a lot of items, not just movies.

Walmart is scaling back most of their inventory due to loss of business and trying to put on a new "face" for the public after the backlash of employee dissatisfaction and public outrage with their hiring/paygrade practices.
If you haven't noticed, they have been remodeling all Walmart's with the new layout, which have large(width) isles.
There's a program running on the History channel describing these very changes and inventory reduction of a lot of items, not just movies.

I guess J.P. Morgan analysts must not understand the impact of the History Channel on Wal-mart..... ;)

Is Walmart a good source for blurays?

I have not been in a walmart in the 5yrs or more

Is Walmart a good source for blurays?

I have not been in a walmart in the 5yrs or more

Wal-mart sells a crapload of physical media. Having DVDs and Blu-rays displayed less prominently in the store will certainly impact sales.

While I believe there’s still a future for the Blu-ray format, there’s no denying the DVD retail industry is in a protracted, and most likely permanent decline. The bottom line is: one out of every three DVDs sold in this country leaves the store in a Wal-Mart bag. This new strategy has HUGE implications for movie studios already battling to keep their format afloat.

http://www.insideredbox.com/wal-mart-dvd-shift-ominous-for-movie-studios/

Is Walmart a good source for blurays?

I have not been in a walmart in the 5yrs or more
Not really. They do a very poor job of stocking current or catalog titles and the prices are not in line w/ best buy or amazon. It is a wonder they sell any.

They never display any shippers so if they were to remove them, no one will notice.:D

For some fact based info regarding Blu-ray at Wal-Mart...

Back in May they already had 20-30% Blu-ray market share, and were expected to quickly mimic the 40% market share that they own for DVD.


http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=2673

Imagine that, the top retailer in the world at 20% of share for BD. How pathetic.
They should have been wiping BB...except that the selection and price at WM sucks.

Did I mention they never seem to put shippers out like BB who was at half the market share. Maybe I did...

Imagine that, the top retailer in the world at 20% of share for BD. How pathetic.

They might actually be concerned if Blu-ray itself had more than 20% share of the physical media market.

Either way, analysts believe they will have the 40% market share for Blu-ray they currently have for DVD, and that share will be impacted by how they decide to present the media to the consumer.

They might actually be concerned if Blu-ray itself had more than 20% share of the physical media market.

Either way, analysts believe they will have the 40% market share for Blu-ray they currently have for DVD, and that share will be impacted by how they decide to present the media to the consumer.
Your post is contradictory. You claim they don't care about BD but they aim to have a 40% market share. Maybe BB will just give it to them...
In addition, because they don't care about BD they will "...increase consumer electronics products, including HDTVs and Blu-ray players; and reduce the amount of clutter in store aisles."

Your post is contradictory. You claim they don't care about BD but they aim to have a 40% market share. Maybe BB will just give it to them...
In addition, because they don't care about BD they will "...increase consumer electronics products, including HDTVs and Blu-ray players; and reduce the amount of clutter in store aisles."

It is not contradictory. They will gain market share and match their current share with DVD. The only way that does not happen is if Blu-ray hits a hard wall and never reaches broader adoption. That does not change that physical media will NOT get the sort of display that is known to have a positive impact on sales.


You obviously missed it, but I was poking fun at your post stating "Imagine that, the top retailer in the world at 20% of share for BD. How pathetic."

I don't think Wal-mart is concerned about already having 20% share in Blu-ray, especially with predictions showing that they will eventually get 40% share. If you have any data, analysis or other support to counter that, then please share.

Also feel free to show any data or analysis that shows that Wal-mart removing DVDs (and Blu-rays) from prominence in their displays will not negatively impact sales.


I know you will not (and cannot). The only reason you are even replying is because you refuse to accept current market realities. I do enjoy that you reply as keeping these conversations prominently displayed only serves to educate those reading the threads.

The Wal*Marts in my area has almost done away with large corrugated containers that was filled $5.00 DVDs. IMO, those will not be missed.

The closest Wal*Mart has dispersed many of the Blu-ray titles with the DVD titles (which is a mistake IMHO). A more upscale Wal*Mart has fixed a separate, very prominent, display for their Blu-ray titles.

If one has an interest in a certain Blu-ray title and Wal*Mart does not stock it then you may want to see if it is available online. If they have the title available online then you can have that title sent to your local store (I have done this with other products but no videos).

FWIW, the local Targets and Best Buys have greatly increased their Blu-ray title count and the amount of shelf space for said titles.

You're right, I will stop feeding the troll now...

The Wal*Marts in my area has almost done away with large corrugated containers that was filled $5.00 DVDs. IMO, those will not be missed.


The Super Wal-mart(Federal Way) near me has taken the $5 DVD's and put them in an isle display instead of having in a dumpster DVD "bin."
Also, this particular Wal-mart has a decent selection of blu-ray and DVD's.
The blu-ray's are usually in stock as well instead of taking up empty shelf space as I've seen in some other Wal-mart's that appear to sell blu-ray but then never replenishes.:confused:

The Super Wal-mart(Federal Way) near me has taken the $5 DVD's and put them in an isle display instead of having in a dumpster DVD "bin."For me many of the Wal*Mart stores look more like fire-sale stores with a lot of merchandise clutter. It now appears they are trying to give many of their stores a more upscale look, both inside and outside. I believe part of their intent is to reduce isle clutter and items with very low margins. Hence that is why many of the $5.00 DVD bins have gone away and they will only keep the $5.00 DVDs that sell and make it easier to purchase said $5.00 DVD titles. Now, it would be nice if they could decide on a name, I have seen Wal*Mart, Walmart, and Wal-Mart (http://www.walmart.com/).

FWIW, the local Targets and Best Buys have greatly increased their Blu-ray title count and the amount of shelf space for said titles.

Went to Wal Mart for the first time in a while this weekend (maybe a year?) and was shocked at how few BDs were displayed. I kept thinking that I must be missing an aisle or something so I finally asked a store employee where "the rest" of the Blu-Ray discs were and he replied "That's it. We don't carry as many as we used to." The DVD section also looked slightly smaller, but no where on the scale of the BD section (there were maybe 20-30 BD movies displayed, total).

Target and BB, on the other hand, seem to have very extensive BD displays and more aggressive promotional pricing (there have been some good Target deals lately).

I must admit that this is puzzling to me, especially if Wal Mart is attempting to move "up market" in their stores. Probably a bit of a balancing act to move the appearance of their stores up market while still keeping their margins and volumes up. Apparently BDs don't factor into that equation for them? I wonder, in general, if retailers are reducing the number and amount of their "loss leaders" (I had always read the new release DVDs were loss leader for Wal Mart) in the current economic climate?

Not surprising to me as Walmart isn't what I would call for 'early adopters' which is what bluray still is.

Maybe in 4-5yrs it will be more mainstream IF the blurays are under $10

Now, it would be nice if they could decide on a name, I have seen Wal*Mart, Walmart, and Wal-Mart (http://www.walmart.com/).
The recent documentary I watched mentioned this as their new logo, which I believe has been out for several months or longer.

http://preservationinpink.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/walmart-logo.jpg

Target and BB, on the other hand, seem to have very extensive BD displays and more aggressive promotional pricing (there have been some good Target deals lately).It will be interesting to see each stores (Amazon, BB, Target, Walmart, etc.) sales percentage of Blu-ray disc for calendar 2009. I will ask Kosty if he has such data through the 3qt.

Best Buy is the dominant retailer of Blu-ray Disc by a large margin and an unmatched force in the consumer marketing of both Blu-ray and DVD, heavily emphasizing home entertainment in its weekly advertising.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6700109.html

Analyst: Dismissal of Redbox Claims Could Undermine Kiosk Viability

Should a judge rule in favor of motions filed last week by 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment and Warner Home Video to dismiss legal claims filed against them by Redbox, investors could question the kiosk movie rental operator’s business model and sustainability, an analyst said.

Merriman Curhan Ford analyst Eric Wold said dismissal of Redbox’s antitrust lawsuits would represent a “worst case scenario” for the kiosk vendor, which he said had still managed to grow and prosper despite adverse conditions that included having to purchase Universal titles via third-party retail channels.

Wold said he doubts the suits will be tossed, and if anything the cases would likely be watered down as a judge did with Redbox’s similar antitrust litigation against Universal Studios Home Entertainment.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/analyst-dismissal-redbox-claims-could-undermine-kiosk-viability-17222

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6700109.html

Interesting article. Best Buy certainly is at the forefront of introducing emerging formats and technologies.

Best Buy is the dominant retailer of Blu-ray Disc by a large margin and an unmatched force in the consumer marketing of both Blu-ray and DVD, heavily emphasizing home entertainment in its weekly advertising. The consumer electronics chain’s core customer base is rich with early adopters, and because of that, the retailer has played a key role in the introduction of both DVD and Blu-ray, as well as all videogame formats and new technologies. Best Buy is getting into the digital movie business through a partnership with Sonic Solutions to sell Roxio CinemaNow movies on the Best Buy Web site and on select devices sold in stores.

Alas, there is no update on the market share for Best Buy or Wal-mart since this article... although the article details how Wal-mart is growing their share and is expected to mimic the rest of the physical media market.

According to research sources, Best Buy is currently the top Blu-ray retailer in the USA, with a market share of 40% to 50%, a percentage even larger than what Wal-Mart holds in standard DVD. Wal-Mart comes second, with 20% to 30%, followed by Amazon, with about 15% to 20%, and Target, with approximately 10%.

If we compare the Blu-ray rankings with those reported in October 2007, the most significant change (apart from the disappearance of Circuit City) is that Wal-Mart has now overtaken Amazon for second place. Indeed, analysts say that Wal-Mart is likely to further expand its market share.

The DVD retail rankings are very different: Wal-Mart continues to dominate with a 40% share, followed by Target and Best Buy (neck-and-neck with 12% and 11%, respectively), and Amazon in fourth place, with 6% to 7%.

Research analysts believe that Best Buy's dominance with Blu-ray makes sense because its core electronics customer base matches perfectly with early adopters. Also, Best Buy promotes Blu-ray more aggressively than Target or Wal-Mart, by placing titles in heavily trafficked areas and emphasizing Blu-ray titles in advertising.

Amazon has also heavily promoted Blu-ray, and thus has attained a much larger share in the format than what it has on DVD.

However, research analysts predict Blu-ray retail shares will move closer to standard DVD shares in the near future, as the high-definition format becomes more mainstream.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=2673

Interesting info from Coinstar (Redbox) CEO Davis:
Davis noted that new software is being deployed this month to Redbox machines nationwide to allow for variable pricing, as Redbox adds Blu-ray Disc rentals to more machines and tests “pricing elasticity ” at some machines. Davis added that Redbox will test more video game rentals at its machines.

Story here (http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/coinstar-ceo-redbox-studios-need-give-a-little-17228).

Blockbuster kiosks expand into Tedeschi Food Shops

PHYSICAL: 188 locations will have DVD machines by year's end

OCT. 8 | PHYSICAL: NCR is installing Blockbuster Express kiosks in 188 Tedeschi Food Shops convenience stores.

The stores are located in the New England areas of Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Connecticut.

Blockbuster Express kiosks already are available in 89 Tedeschi stores, and the $1-a-night rental machines are expected to be deployed in another 27 locations by the end of October. All 188 outlets should have machines installed by the end of 2009, NCR announced.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6701076.html

Video Buyers Group this month will launch a promotion in its 1,700 member stores to tell customers that traditional video stores—not Redbox and other $1 a night machines—carry the best selection of rental product.

Stickers and posters will use the ‘Available Here First’ theme, referring to the fact that beginning late in the month three studios—Universal Studios Home Entertainment, Warner Home Video and 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment—will withhold their titles from the kiosk channel until at least 30 days after their general street date.

Redbox is suing all three studios over the window, although Fox, in particular, has reiterated that it tried to strike a deal with the kiosk operator before imposing the delay. Studios are concerned that Redbox’s $1 a night model cuts into their revenue from higher-margin businesses, including DVD sell-through.

VBG’s efforts could be muted, however, by the fact that Redbox has pledged to bypass Fox and Warner restrictions and get those studios’ titles from sources other than traditional distributors for stocking on street date. If Redbox is successful, Fox and Warner titles should street in the kiosks at the same time as they do at VBG stores and other retailers. Redbox has long maintained that its machines have carried all Universal releases since the studio imposed its 45-day window last year.

Beyond the fear of losing customers, many retailers worry that cheap Redbox rentals will hurt film revenue so much that studios will ultimately have to scale back future movie production. Hollywood trade unions also are believed to be prepping a consumer campaign of their own, to similarly insist that Redbox harms the entertainment business.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6701388.html

Analyst: Redbox Could Sign With Retailer

Redbox could seek a “white knight” retailer to supply it with DVDs from the three major studios the kiosk operator is suing for withholding new releases, Eric Wold, analyst with Merriman Curhan Ford, said Monday.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/analyst-redbox-could-sign-with-retailer-17285

Video Buyers Group Combats Kiosks With ‘Available Here 1st’ Logo

The Video Buyers Group, representing roughly 1,700 independent video rentailers nationwide, has unveiled a logo that will show up on posters in video stores and on DVDs from studios currently fighting with Redbox over the availability of new releases in the kiosks.

The red “Available Here 1st” logo will start appearing in the buying group’s video stores by the end of the month, according to Video Buyers Group president Ted Engen.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/video-buyers-group-combats-kiosks-with-available-here-1st-logo-17288

I think you just like to see your thread at the top:eek:

There is no new news here, :rolleyes:

Let alone no new bluray news :confused:

Who wants to buy most of the crap released on disc, BD or DVD these days? I myself used to buy a lot now I may buy 1-3 discs a year. I say, release all movies to disc day and date with release to movie theaters and allow me the option to watch new release movies at home via VOD so I dont have to go to a crappy theater. This is my dream...


Until then Redbox and rentals for me.

Buying physical disc's is so 1990's.....

Redbox buying at retail? You don't say

I do not have any definitive scoop on how Redbox buys the titles it can't get directly from studios or through wholesalers, any surveillance photos of pallets of DVDs going out of a Wal-Mart warehouse and into a Redbox truck. But it's long stood to reason that Redbox must have access to bulk inventory provided by a large retailer -- one that has a vested interest in keeping Redbox well-stocked. If you believe the kiosks help draw foot traffic to your store--and Wal-Mart and Walgreen's, as well as multiple large grocers and c-stores do--you would have no interest in having consumers disappointed in the kiosks when they got there. Note: Neither Target or Best Buy houses Redbox kiosks.

http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1120000312/post/1000049700.html

redbox is going nowhere has far as bluray is concerned

You left the pertinent fact for this forum out


http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1120000312/post/1350048135.html

"• Growth of Blu-ray and VOD. When consumers adopt Blu-ray in greater numbers, Redbox will also have to change its product mix. Higher-priced Blu-ray discs will change Redbox’s economic model.

Some studios like to counter the idea that Redbox offers the best consumer proposition in terms of convenience and value with the argument that, in fact, VOD is the best delivery platform on those accounts. For $3 to $4 instead of $2, consumers don’t even have to leave the couch."

Maybe they feel they don't need blurays until they are in the greater numbers:eek:

How about this:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6701407.html

Is RB missing the boat again.

redbox is going nowhere has far as bluray is concerned

Redbox will deploy Blu-ray as customer demand dictates. They will probably charge more per night ($1.50 or $2 a night), but that is just part of the existing price premium on Blu-ray.

Redbox is also fortunate that as they increase Blu-ray adoption, they will also drive down prices as they set a new price point for Blu-ray rentals, and by putting pricing pressure on sell-through by dumping their used discs on the market a few weeks after release.

Great for Redbox... disastrous for the studios. The studios are the ones picking up the extra authoring, manufacturing and licensing costs for Blu-ray while Redbox simply does high customer turnover via their kiosks.

How about this:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6701407.html

Is RB missing the boat again.

Doesn't look like it:

DVD rentals through traditional and online retailers are off 2.8% for the year, to $4 billion.

Redbox will deploy Blu-ray as customer demand dictates. They will probably charge more per night ($1.50 or $2 a night), but that is just part of the existing price premium on Blu-ray.

Redbox is also fortunate that as they increase Blu-ray adoption, they will also drive down prices as they set a new price point for Blu-ray rentals, and by putting pricing pressure on sell-through by dumping their used discs on the market a few weeks after release.

Great for Redbox... disastrous for the studios. The studios are the ones picking up the extra authoring, manufacturing and licensing costs for Blu-ray while Redbox simply does high customer turnover via their kiosks.

That door has been slammed shut by the three studios who signed with redbox:

The output deal covers all Paramount titles, including live-action films from DreamWorks, but not titles from DreamWorks Animation, Moore said.

As part of the deal, Redbox also will destroy used rental inventory, rather than redistributing it for eventual sale to consumers.

In exchange for its product agreements with Lionsgate and Sony, Redbox agreed not to resell old DVDs on the used-disc market -- a practice that's riled studio execs even more than the company's ultra-low rental price.

And for Disney also:

What I really wish, however, was that he pressed Lowe further on the nature of Redbox’s deal with Disney. Bob Iger recently alluded to a deal with Redbox, among other kiosk companies, that stipulates they not sell used discs. This deal was apparently struck a while ago. It is not a guaranteed distribution pact like the ones Sony and Lionsgate have recently forged with the company.

http://consumedbymedia.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/what-is-the-nature-of-disneys-redbox-deal/

That door has been slammed shut by the three studios who signed with redbox:

http://consumedbymedia.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/what-is-the-nature-of-disneys-redbox-deal/

In the case where details were provided, I recall Blu-ray being specifically excluded from the agreements.

In the case where details were provided, I recall Blu-ray being specifically excluded from the agreements.

Only Sony as far as I know. They will not put BD's into redbox kiosks.

It's very simple really. The studios don't want RB selling used optical discs to the public. It undermines the studios efforts to sell them new D/D titles.

Only Sony as far as I know. They will not put BD's into redbox kiosks.

It's very simple really. The studios don't want RB selling used optical discs to the public. It undermines the studios efforts to sell them new D/D titles.

Duh.

I have been saying that for many months. That is the only reason why any studio would actually make a deal with Redbox.

The problem for the studios is that Redbox hurts them either way. $1 rentals devalue the content. Used discs getting dumped on the market really hurt and devalue their content. The deals have not included Blu-ray because studios would love to keep the media priced high. They are foolish to think that will last long.

Once Blu-ray is popular enough, it will be offered more broadly. The studios will then be faced with whether to do revenue sharing with Redbox on Blu-ray (and see Blu-ray rental value plummet), or let Redbox buy the discs and then dump them on the market a few weeks after release. Either way, physical media gets seriously devalued. I expect in 3-4 years that used Blu-ray discs will be as hard to unload for more than $5 as DVDs are today.

Duh.

I have been saying that for many months. That is the only reason why any studio would actually make a deal with Redbox.

The problem for the studios is that Redbox hurts them either way. $1 rentals devalue the content. Used discs getting dumped on the market really hurt and devalue their content. The deals have not included Blu-ray because studios would love to keep the media priced high. They are foolish to think that will last long.

Once Blu-ray is popular enough, it will be offered more broadly. The studios will then be faced with whether to do revenue sharing with Redbox on Blu-ray (and see Blu-ray rental value plummet), or let Redbox buy the discs and then dump them on the market a few weeks after release. Either way, physical media gets seriously devalued. I expect in 3-4 years that used Blu-ray discs will be as hard to unload for more than $5 as DVDs are today.

:confused:

First you say that RB is going to dump used discs onto the market.

Then I show you where that is not going to happen.

You reply; "duh, I have been saying that for months" . . .

And then you continue on telling us how RB will do deals with the studios - and dump used discs on the market.

CLUE: That isn't going to happen. Any studio that signs a deal with RB is demanding that all used discs are destroyed and none are sold to the public.

:confused:

First you say that RB is going to dump used discs onto the market.

Then I show you where that is not going to happen.

You reply; "duh, I have been saying that for months" . . .

And then you continue on telling us how RB will do deals with the studios - and dump used discs on the market.

CLUE: That isn't going to happen. Any studio that signs a deal with RB is demanding that all used discs are destroyed and none are sold to the public.

You stated that studios don't WANT Redbox to dump discs on the market. That is the "Duh" part. What is actually happening is an entirely different discussion.

Recap 101:

Redbox is currently dumping used discs where deals are not in place.

Not all studios have a deal with Redbox. Of those who do, I do not recall where Blu-ray was listed as being part of the deal. In fact, one studio specifically stated that Blu-ray was NOT part of the deal.

You cannot state that Redbox is not going to dump used discs on the market because there is no underlying data source to support that across all studios and all physical media.

The concern about the used discs getting dumped on the market is strong enough to get some studios to sign with Redbox. Not all studios think that is in their best interest. Some believe they can slow down Redbox's growth and profitability on the supply side.

Either way, the media is devalued. Sell-through pricing is directly impacted when used media is sold a few weeks after release at fire sale pricing. Media value is impacted when rentals are available for $1 a night.

Purchasing content at $15 (or more) simply does not look like good consumer value when the same content can be viewed for less than the cost of a medium coke at McDonald's.


The studios are faced with a no-win scenario with Redbox and physical media. Either they don't deal and face the double whammy of $1 rentals and $7 sell-through a few weeks after release... or they make a deal with the devil that provides a supply side engine of growth for Redbox and their trend of devaluing content.

Looks like a price point for physical media rental is being set:

Wattles owns Mark’s Video and GameTag stores in Washington, Oregon, Nevada and Arizona. The first thing renters to Mark’s Video stores notice are signs hyping new DVD releases for rent for 99¢ a night, competitive with any kiosk but with far more choices. Blu-ray movies rent for $1.49, catalog films for 49¢. Every movie in the store also is priced for sale, with new releases tagged around $19.99 at the Beaverton, Ore., store Video Business visited.

Unlike Redbox, Mark’s has a large selection of new releases, independent films, catalog and foreign films.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6702367.html

Looks like a price point for physical media rental is being set:


Mark’s Video and GameTag stores in Washington

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6702367.html
I've never seen or even heard of these stores and I travel all over from Tacoma, Everett, Bellevue, W.Seattle, Burien, Kent, Auburn, Puyallup, Federal Way, Redmond, Totem Lake, Bothell and Woodingville.
So I'm note sure how much of a precedence it will make to larger Video Rental outlets if these are "mom and pop" stores or only have limited outlets/locations.

I've never seen or even heard of these stores and I travel all over from Tacoma, Everett, Bellevue, W.Seattle, Burien, Kent, Auburn, Puyallup, Federal Way, Redmond, Totem Lake, Bothell and Woodingville.
So I'm note sure how much of a precedence it will make to larger Video Rental outlets if these are "mom and pop" stores or only have limited outlets/locations.

From the story:

A year after Hollywood Video founder Mark Wattles was forced to drop the Hollywood name from 20 video stores he retained after selling the chain to Movie Gallery, his chain has a new name and an aggressive business model with Redbox prices.

Lets let this bogus thread die in dignity

And start another with new bluray info if and when there is some new bluray info.

Redbox tests DVD sell-through kiosk

PHYSICAL: Study: Low-priced rental machines not cannibalizing sales

Redbox is poised to expand a test of sell-through machines offering regular-priced DVDs, as a complement to its popular $1 a night rental kiosk business

The company also continues to test Blu-ray Disc and videogame rentals, Lowe said

However, Redbox executives are circulating a study, conducted this month by Interpret, that indicates that Redbox renters are not cannibalizing studio sales business, and in fact are heavily supporting it. In the past six months, Redbox renters said they bought 3.3 new DVD or Blu-ray titles and 1.4 used DVD/Blu-ray discs. That compares to non-Redbox renters who say they purchased 3.1 new DVD/Blu-rays and 1.2 used DVD/Blu-rays. Additionally, the heaviest Redbox users, who rent at least one $1 title weekly, say they’ve bought 4.4 new DVD/Blu-rays and 1.9 used DVD/Blu-rays.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6702494.html?desc=topsto

How many bluray have you tested from a redbox or a blackbox?

How many bluray have you tested from a redbox or a blackbox?
Even though BD rentals are up 54% so far this year to 313 million dollars, RB continues to keep their program a secret...

Even though BD rentals are up 54% so far this year to 313 million dollars, RB continues to keep their program a secret...

They discuss it in their financials, and there are articles in this very thread that reference their work and plans.

Granted, when you point out the entire BD rental market is only 313 million dollars it does provide some perspective on why the BD deployment is not as widespread as DVD yet. Once BD grows in the market then you will certainly see more BDs in Redbox kiosks (with the same impact on value as is happening with DVDs).

They discuss it in their financials, and there are articles in this very thread that reference their work and plans.

Granted, when you point out the entire BD rental market is only 313 million dollars it does provide some perspective on why the BD deployment is not as widespread as DVD yet. Once BD grows in the market then you will certainly see more BDs in Redbox kiosks (with the same impact on value as is happening with DVDs).
Where did you rent your last BD from? NetFlix, Blockbuster, Hollywood, West Coast or Marks?

Why Redbox Terrifies Hollywood

We survey our customers all the time to find out what they want. They're telling us they want more stuff like Blu-ray, catalog films and digital downloads. We are testing Blu-ray discs at different price points. In two markets we're testing games.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/26/dvds-mitch-lowe-business-entertainment-redbox.html

It would be LOL hilarious if Redbox started pricing titles from those particular studios at 50 cents just to tick them off until they play ball. They are still getting them D&D, just having to pay retail prices for them from stores.

I'm not sure we have Blu-Ray here....we did at our Wal-Mart at one point, but haven't checked for awhile. The games rental is interesting. I wonder how much/how long those rentals are for.

My favorite quote from Redbox President Mitch Lowe:

We have the ability to open one kiosk per hour. The only way the studios can stop us is if they don't stock stores like Target and Wal-Mart.

Pretty bold and an accurate summary of what the studios are facing with DVD and Blu-ray.

And what do they stock those RBs with...you guessed it...700 +/-shiny plastic discs.
Some purchased at retail.:D

And what do they stock those RBs with...you guessed it...700 +/-shiny plastic discs.
Some purchased at retail.:D
If they are buying them from retail, that means additional costs are incurred to pay a staff to unwrap the discs and also disposal fees for the dump/landfill for the unneeded packaging.

If they are buying them from retail, that means additional costs are incurred to pay a staff to unwrap the discs and also disposal fees for the dump/landfill for the unneeded packaging.

Can't be recycled? ;)

Katzenberg downplayed the effect the expansion of Redbox has had on DreamWorks results, saying the U.S. movie-rental kiosk leader gives customers a good opportunity to sample the studio’s titles before buying them.

“Redbox has actually served us in a very positive way,” Katzenberg said. “We’re not impacted in the same way as everyone else.”

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6704168.html

Can't be recycled? ;)
foil coated paper: no
cellophane wrap: no
Plastic: Hard to believe but not all localities recycle...not all recycle all plastics

Looks like Red Box will get to see both sides of the legal table (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6704097.html?desc=topstory).

Claimants say kiosk operator wrongly collected $100 million
By Danny King -- Video Business, 10/27/2009

Redbox kiosk
Redbox kiosks charge $1 a night for DVD rentals.
OCT. 27 | PHYSICAL: Redbox is the subject of a class-action lawsuit from customers who say the largest U.S. operator of movie-rental kiosks has illegally collected $100 million in fees from people who rented movies for more than one day over the past nine years

The lawsuit puts Redbox in the new position of being a defendant instead of a plaintiff in a legal tussle. Redbox has lawsuits against Warner Home Video, 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment and Universal Studios Home Entertainment, all of which have taken issue with Redbox's $1 a night rentals and are prohibiting the sale of their new DVD releases to kiosk operators such as Redbox until at least four weeks after their street date.

Looks like Red Box will get to see both sides of the legal table (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6704097.html?desc=topstory).
How BB of them.

And what do they stock those RBs with...you guessed it...700 +/-shiny plastic discs.
Some purchased at retail.:D

And those purchased at retail will be dumped on the market for $7 (or less) each a few weeks after release.

That means that the studios see revenue for one disc sold, while a score of customers view the content via rental and the movie still ends up fulfilling a customers desire to purchase, but at a price level that is well below what the studios wish to see their content valued at.

OUCH!!

And those purchased at retail will be dumped on the market for $7 (or less) each a few weeks after release.

That means that the studios see revenue for one disc sold, while a score of customers view the content via rental and the movie still ends up fulfilling a customers desire to purchase, but at a price level that is well below what the studios wish to see their content valued at.

OUCH!!
Some will be sold, others destroyed...guess you didn't read the whole article.

"...we only sell used copies of movies from studios that don't work with us. We destroy old copies from our partner studios."

Those retired will be replaced with additional shiny disc purchases, wholesale or retail.
By all means, open one every hour = 16,800 discs purchased every day for new vending machines.

Looks like the delays are having an effect on Red Box

PHYSICAL: Street-date delays reflect legal issues with studios (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6704170.html)

Warner Home Video’s Orphan and Universal Studio Home Entertainment’s Drag Me to Hell were among titles released on DVD today that weren’t stocked at many Redbox machines across the country, according to a Video Business spot check of kiosks at retailers such as Albertson’s, 7-Eleven and Ralphs. Kiosks in California, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Texas listed titles including Orphan, Hell and 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment’s Ice Age 3: Dawn of the Dinosaurs under the heading of “Coming in October” but didn’t have physical copies. The latest Ice Age installment grossed almost $900 million in theaters worldwide after its July release, while Orphan and Hell grossed a combined $136 million, according to BoxOfficeMojo.com.

At some point Red Box will learn, “If you want to play you have to pay”. They have already stated they are updating their system to allow for “variable pricing”.

Warner has the insane dream of ruling the world; they make me ill....

Well, they did pretty much single-handedly kill HD-DVD! :o

Analyst Puts Kiosks at End of Home Entertainment Food Chain

Specifically, the analyst would prioritize new releases in the following order:

1.Digital sale of movie downloads through iTunes, Amazon and other services.
2.Physical sales of DVD and Blu-ray Disc
3.Cable video-on-demand (VOD) and digital rental via iTunes and others.
4.Physical rental through Blockbuster, Movie Gallery, Hollywood Video, etc.
5.Physical by-mail rental via Netflix and others.
6.Physical rental through kiosks.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/retailers/analyst-puts-kiosks-end-home-entertainment-food-chain-17422

Analyst Puts Kiosks at End of Home Entertainment Food ChainIMO, the analyst has 1 & 3 backwards. He should swap 1 & 3. May be he is not aware there are more than 90,000,000 VOD/PPV devices (cable and pizza dishes) in homes.

Looks like Red Box will get to see both sides of the legal table (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6704097.html?desc=topstory).

evergreen contract

Definition

Agreement between two parties that is automatically renewed (rolled over) after each completion- or maturity period, until canceled by the either party.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/evergreen-contract.html

Some will be sold, others destroyed...guess you didn't read the whole article.

"...we only sell used copies of movies from studios that don't work with us. We destroy old copies from our partner studios."

Those retired will be replaced with additional shiny disc purchases, wholesale or retail.
By all means, open one every hour = 16,800 discs purchased every day for new vending machines.

Perhaps you should recall that I was the one who was discussing the details of the deals long before this article came out.

The deal that the studios are making is a deal with the devil. It takes away one of the most painful aspects of kiosks (crazy cheap content being resold a few weeks after release), but still leaves the very real issue of the content being devalued. Purchasing content at >$15 does not look as attractive when the option to view it for $1 is also presented.

And the studios still need to author, master, replicate, ship and destroy all those shiny discs. And they still see a relatively small amount of revenue for every customer who gets their need to see the content satisfied at $1.

Making a deal with Redbox is probably the best option for studios right now, but it still hurts since the physical market is based on higher revenue per transaction for the studios.

I posted this in another thread, but felt it was relevant here as well:

Redbox titles are now $2 here for the first night, $1 additional nights (zip code 17078 if you want to look at their website and kiosks in my area) I hadn't rented a movie from RB in maybe 6 months until tonight.

Went to the website to reserve something, and it came up as $2. I was sure it was a mistake so checked other stores, and same thing. Went to the store itself and it was also $2.

I rented something anyways (sick kid who just had to see Monsters Vs. Aliens), then called customer support. "Phyllis" told me they are raising prices nationwide, and my area gets to be an early adopter, and my state (PA) will be one of the first. I checked some other locations around the state (like Erie and Pittsburgh and Philly) and they are all still $1 from what I can tell.

I told her maybe they shouldn't advertise $1 rentals on the website and in all media outlets and on the front of the kiosk (which is the WORST) if they are $2.

I hate how they are doubling their prices. I hope this is not in response to the studios, but probably is.

Why are you surprised, you knew it was $2 from the web site.
If it said $1 on the site and was $2 when you got to the machine I could understand...

Once they kill remaining B & M stores you'll be paying $3 to $4 again for dvd. So much for devaluation of media.

Meet the new boss...

Why are you surprised, you knew it was $2 from the web site.
If it said $1 on the site and was $2 when you got to the machine I could understand...

Once they kill remaining B & M stores you'll be paying $3 to $4 again for dvd. So much for devaluation of media.

Meet the new boss...

I wasn't surprised that the store was the same as the site. But I was surprised that it was the first I had heard of it since they advertise $1 everywhere (the front page of their site, every article I've ever read, the FRONT OF THE KIOSK that I grabbed it out of).

I was surprised that there was no interwebs meltdown over the last few days/weeks (or whatever), as I usually I hear this stuff beforehand and don't have to find it out for myself.

I did edit my post....it's $2 for the first night, $1 for additional nights (slight difference between that and $2/night)

But I was surprised that it was the first I had heard of it since they advertise $1 everywhere (the front page of their site, every article I've ever read, the FRONT OF THE KIOSK that I grabbed it out of).I posted this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17307870&postcount=305) sometime back and the following in this thread today:

At some point Red Box will learn, “If you want to play you have to pay”. They have already stated they are updating their system to allow for “variable pricing”.

Redbox titles are now $2 here for the first night, $1 additional nights (zip code 17078 if you want to look at their website and kiosks in my area) I hadn't rented a movie from RB in maybe 6 months until tonight.

They are purely a consumer driven growth company. Changing to $2 a night rental would change that, and significantly slow their growth, which would have a devastating impact on their stock price. I generally do not trust customer service reps to have all the data, particularly something like this which would have an impact on how analysts viewed the stock (the person making $7/hr manning the phones would not likely have strategic corporate data before the analysts).

If I knew it was true, it would be a good time to short Coinstar.


I do believe this may be a test to see how the consumer reacts in a specific market. Just about every company does this.

I do believe this may be a test to see how the consumer reacts in a specific market. Just about every company does this.

Maybe it is, although I find it odd they'd choose our little podunk area for a test. Although it is the Harrisburg area (capital), but it's not really that big: even within PA there are much bigger cities (like Erie, Philly, Pittsburgh, etc)

And no, I wouldn't really trust the CSR either, but just passing on what she told me.

how is redbox going to know that they lost me as a customer.. i had to sign up for blockbuster through the mail because none of the redboxes in my area carry blu ray. i used to rent from redbox several times a week.. now that i have a blu ray player i havnt rented any from them... i think blu ray has been out long enough that it should be offered as well as the standard dvd.

Redbox Inks Deals With Summit, NCircle

Redbox said Nov. 2 that it had signed a distribution deal with Summit Entertainment, owner of this year’s hit DVD Twilight. The two-year agreement begins Jan. 1, 2010 and guarantees the kiosk operator new titles the day they’re released, Redbox president Mitch Lowe said.

Redbox also announced a similar two-year agreement with children’s DVD distributor NCircle Entertainment. Financial details for the agreements were not immediately available.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/redbox-inks-deals-with-summit-ncircle-17461

FWIW, here's the reply I got back when I emailed customer service inquiring as to why they advertise $1 everywhere but it's $2 in my area:


Hello,

Thank you for your email. Redbox is currently testing price points in select markets. The test will allow us to assess the impact of price on our business. Redbox is committed to preserving the value and convenience of the Redbox brand. The markets were selected based on a variety of factors including market demographics and number of machines.

If you have any additional questions, comments, or concerns, please let us know and anyone in customer service would be more than happy to assist you.
Thank you,
-Sarinthia
Redbox Customer Care
1.866.REDBOX3
www.redbox.com


I have since just emailed them again saying I'll just stick with Netflix since it's now cheaper on a per-movie basis. They probably don't care because I never used RB much anyways cause Netflix provides enough for me. Not like I was a heavy RB user and they probably don't care about my ~$20 per year (or ~$40 with the price increase) they'll be losing.

FWIW, here's the reply I got back when I emailed customer service inquiring as to why they advertise $1 everywhere but it's $2 in my area:



I have since just emailed them again saying I'll just stick with Netflix since it's now cheaper on a per-movie basis. They probably don't care because I never used RB much anyways cause Netflix provides enough for me. Not like I was a heavy RB user and they probably don't care about my ~$20 per year (or ~$40 with the price increase) they'll be losing.

Don't frett. For every lose they sustain, they get 3 wins in it's place.

Netflix likes price-window tradeoff

PHYSICAL: Retailer asking for hefty discounts, which studios have yet to give

NOV. 6 | PHYSICAL: Netflix will accept a one-month delay on new releases—an option it is discussing with several major studios—but only if its inventory cost is slashed by as much as half, according to sources.

The subscription rental company is believed to be discussing such an arrangement with Warner Home Video, Universal Studios Home Entertainment, 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment and possibly others. None of the studios has agreed to drop prices as much as Netflix wants, sources said.

The same three studios have already imposed a window of at least four weeks on rental kiosk operator Redbox, as they strive to either push low-cost rentals into a later window or realize more profit from kiosks and subscriptions.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6705990.html

Two weeks after finding Ice Age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs stocked in just more than two-thirds of Redbox kiosks, financial services firm Merriman Curhan Ford checked the same 50-plus kiosks in 17 cities Nov. 14 and found the 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment DVD stocked in 94% of machines.

“With that movie still in the top six rentals for the past week, we are encouraged by the incremental gains in stocking the title with the company’s workaround program,” said Merriman analyst Eric Wold. He was referring to Redbox’s workaround program for Fox and Warner Home Video new releases. Those two studios are keeping their wholesalers from selling to the rental kiosk operator, forcing Redbox to buy the DVDs at retail.

Redbox will have more big fourth-quarter titles to stock via retail purchases, including Warner’s Terminator: Salvation, The Hangover and Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince; Fox’s Night at the Museum: Battle of the Smithsonian; and Universal Studios Home Entertainment’s Public Enemies.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/analyst-redbox-improves-workaround-fox-warner-titles-17601

Merriman must have been perplexed by the 25% drop in stock price since August.

Way to go coinstar.

Merriman must have been perplexed by the 25% drop in stock price since August.

Way to go coinstar.

They have a few issues going on, including a foolish idea of selling retail DVDs. Their market is low cost rentals and low cost used sales. They do it very well and should stick to it.


They also have a long-term issue unless they develop a Digital Distribution strategy. They can (and will) make money on physical media, but their entire business model is based on devaluing media to it's lowest possible price point. It is great for them (and consumers) now, but ultimately is unsustainable for the industry. Retail prices are dropping and will erode wholesale prices, killing the studios idea of growing physical media revenue. The race to the bottom is happening far quicker than anyone expected, especially with Blu-ray software. With the additional costs of authoring, mastering and producing Blu-ray discs, the studios are going to have to embrace a model where they have more control over pricing and one that has lower costs.

Here is a good article discussing the current state of home entertainment for the studios.


Dreamed up back in the halcyon days of DVD, Blu-ray was supposed to be the format that saved studio home entertainment.

It hasn't gone exactly as planned.

More than three years since its U.S. launch, the savior format still only generates about 6 percent of total home entertainment revenue.

As a comparison, DVD at age 3 commanded fully 20 percent of home entertainment revenue back in 2000, when the standard format had been VHS -- according to industry tracking service the Digital Entertainment Group.

“The market is not being driven by Blu-ray right now,” conceded Brad Hackley, vice president of Rentrak, another tracking service. “The bulk of the transactions are still coming from standard-definition DVD.”

Last week, Rentrak released data that seemed to supply some long-awaited hope to a home entertainment business that has precipitously declined about 10 percent since peaking in 2004.

According to Rentrak, revenue from rentals of traditional DVD and Blu-ray movies and TV shows had increased 8.2 percent to $5 billion through the first three quarters of this year.

Rentals of Blu-ray high-definition disc titles, meanwhile, increased 52 percent to $313 million.

However, while the uptick seems like good news, it actually illustrates continuing problems for the major studios, which have convulsed amid the lack of DVD revenue growth in recent years.

For one, the increase in revenue from disc rentals doesn’t make up for a huge decrease in the higher-margin sales. Indeed, despite the fact that the DVD rental market spiked 6 percent in the first half of this year, the overall home-entertainment market declined 3.9 percent to $9.7 million, according to Digital Entertainment Group.

The reason? DVD sales, which command the lion’s share of growth, declined 16 percent to $5 billion.

For their part, studio officials have blamed low-priced rental services -- notably kiosk operator Redbox -- for undermining the once buoyant DVD sell-through business. Studios including Fox and Universal have argued that not only are their rental prices too low – $1 a unit in the case of Redbox – but they're flooding the market with used discs, exerting significant downward price pressure on DVD sales.

Just as key to these overall declines, however, has been the failure of Blu-ray to become a significant home entertainment business driver.

Even if Blu-ray were to double the $750 million in sales and rental revenue it generated for the studios in 2008, it’s still unlikely that the overall business would remain flat with last year’s total revenue figure of $22.4 million.

http://www.thewrap.com/article/crack-blu-ray-pot-gold-8564

I am kind of surprised that people here seem to think Blu-ray is so niche.

That said, Redbox has made official announcements (back in November) regarding Blu-ray.




http://www.dvdtown.com/news/redbox-kiosks-introduces-1-blu-ray-rentals/6161

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6617314.html

Seems like blu-ray is and will be "niche" for some time to come :eek:

Seems like blu-ray is and will be "niche" for some time to come :eek:
As long as the studios keep pumping out blu-ray discs/titles, I'll be happy that I can get the best PQ/AQ available instead of lowering my viewing expectations back to 20th century PQ/AQ standards.:)

Here is TK’s Take:

Loss-Leadering Coming to Blu-ray Disc
By :Thomas K. Arnold | Posted: 17 Nov 2009
tarnold@questex.com,

My, my, how times have changed. Studio executives used to cringe at newly released theatrical DVDs selling for below $15 their first week in stores, generally at big discount chains like Wal-Mart and Target. The mass merchants were using DVDs as loss leaders to drive traffic into their stores, devaluing the product in the consumer's eyes and later coming back to the studios and complaining about margins. Studio executives were reluctant to lower wholesale prices, even though that's what their big retail customers wanted, and all of a sudden that taboo word that's not supposed to be discussed in public--pricing--was on everyone's tongues.

Now, we're finding loss-leader pricing has come to Blu-ray, a year before anyone expected it to. Wal-Mart and several other mass merchants are advertising, and selling, hot new Blu-ray Disc releases for less than $20--and this, mind you, is before Black Friday, when we traditionally see the lowest prices all year for everything from digital cameras and computers to kitchen sinks (I mean that literally).

Studio executives, frankly, don't know what to think. They're stunned to see it happening so soon, and worried that in the future not only will their visions of incremental profits fade away faster than those visions of sugarplums we keep hearing about each Christmas, but that retailers will start pressuring them for lower wholesale prices and, before you know it, Blu-ray Disc will suffer the same price erosion that plagued DVD within several years of that format's launch--something studio executives have vowed to not let happen again.

While I was among those decrying the race to the bottom in DVD pricing, in this case I'm singing a different song. With apologies to the Beatles, "Let It Be." Given the economy and the slump in DVD sales, we had better do something quick to pick up the slack and take Blu-ray Disc to the masses--and there's nothing better than making the format affordable to everyone, particularly when low-end Blu-ray Disc players are expected to sell for as little as $75 come Black Friday and even final-spec players should be available in the low $100s.

If you think about it, the fact that Wal-Mart and the other mass merchants are using Blu-ray Discs as loss leaders is a tremendous vote of confidence in the format. It means they believe Blu-ray Discs are hot enough to lure people into their stores, as long as the prices aren't out of whack with what they're used to paying for DVDs.

Sure, down the road we might moan and groan about "leaving money on the table" (one of Hollywood's favorite laments), but in this economy, when more and more people are going back to their old habit of renting movies instead of buying them, we need to do something, anything, to get people back in the habit of buying and collecting movies and TV shows.

Let's worry about the potential fallout later. If we don't get Blu-ray Disc to the masses now, regardless of the price, there might not be a later.

And to be clear here is the pie chart through the 3rd Q (sorry if this USA style chart offends anyone, Not)

http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/2540/20091021204322/www.videobusiness.com/contents/images/2009Q3TotalSpending_Pie.jpg

As long as the studios keep pumping out blu-ray discs/titles, I'll be happy that I can get the best PQ/AQ available instead of lowering my viewing expectations back to 20th century PQ/AQ standards.:)

PSound made his "I am kind of surprised that people here seem to think Blu-ray is so niche." statement a few months ago when some of us were saying we had not seen BLU-RAYS in any red boxes.

Some of us have never seen any red boxes :rolleyes:

Nobody is talking about 20th century, we're all blu or better here I believe:D

[QUOTE=PSound;17557023]They have a few issues going on, including a foolish idea of selling retail DVDs. Their market is low cost rentals and low cost used sales. They do it very well and should stick to it.

Agreed. They should also expand their kiosks to be larger and hold more titles (ie popular catalog titles). I believe they are looking into this.

They also have a long-term issue unless they develop a Digital Distribution strategy. They can (and will) make money on physical media, but their entire business model is based on devaluing media to it's lowest possible price point. It is great for them (and consumers) now, but ultimately is unsustainable for the industry. Retail prices are dropping and will erode wholesale prices, killing the studios idea of growing physical media revenue. The race to the bottom is happening far quicker than anyone expected, especially with Blu-ray software. With the additional costs of authoring, mastering and producing Blu-ray discs, the studios are going to have to embrace a model where they have more control over pricing and one that has lower costs.

What a load of FUD. Digital distro at a Redbox kiosk would go over like a lead ballon. Why? Because Redbox would not be able to control the price (something they can do with physical media). How many people do you think would actually rent a movie they download onto an SD/USB card for $3-6 when they can rent the physical disc for $1 per night? The biggest selling point for digital distro is convenience. Why would I drive to a kiosk to download a movie when I can just download or stream it from home? The smartest thing Redbox could do would be to enlarge their machines and rent more Blu-Ray. They could charge $2 for the first night (BD rental) and $1 each night thereafter and generate even more revenue and profit. Blu-Ray is growing at a very healthy pace, it will only grow faster over the next few years as prices drop. Hell, even Netflix (who is pushing streaming) expects to rent optical disks into 2030. 21 years from now. In other words, optical media has huge legs and a long life to go.

And let's put things in perspective. The reason we are seeing $19.99 new releases on Blu-Ray is mainly due to Walmart, Amazon, and Best Buy fighting it out (and it is not just movies, it is books, toys, etc). The studios may not be happy about it, but if more people end up picking up a movie for $10-20 it generates far more revenue than a $1-4 rental. And it is not really a "race to the bottom". Blu-Ray still commands a hefty premium vs DVD on most titles, and for every $10 Blu-Ray at my local Walmart, Best Buy, and Target there more titles in the $19-29 range. Blu-Ray has a ton of upside left for the studios and has, at a minimum, helped to keep overall revenue numbers flat in a horrible economy. Compare movies to video games and you could see that the numbers could be much worse. As the economy improves and consumers have more confidence I expect more people to buy movies on impulse. Also consider HDTV sales. Over the next 5+ years a huge percentage of Americans will be buying their first HDTV and stores will be able to couple Blu-Ray players with their purchase along with movies.

PSound made his "I am kind of surprised that people here seem to think Blu-ray is so niche." statement a few months ago when some of us were saying we had not seen BLU-RAYS in any red boxes.

Some of us have never seen any red boxes :rolleyes:

Nobody is talking about 20th century, we're all blu or better here I believe:D

I've seen those red boxes at Walmart and Fred Meyer in my area but none have blu-ray. If they had blu-ray for $1 or even $2, I might give it a try.

For now, I get unlimited 1 at a time rentals from Blockbuster for $8.99 a month with free/no cost in store exchange/rentals. This gives me immediate rental turn around time.

Something like this:
Receive movie from BB online: watch movie : exchange movie in store and get another title at no cost: return movie: BB online sends me another movie.

I can watch 2 movies in 2 days and another one will arrive in 1-2 days and I can start the cycle again. All this for $9. Netflix can't beat this kind of turn around time and the amount of titles I can view. Nethier can Redbox because I will be getting into less than a dollar a rental/title easily. :)

Here is a good article discussing the current state of home entertainment for the studios.




http://www.thewrap.com/article/crack-blu-ray-pot-gold-8564

Cherry pick much?

Its has been in vogue the last two years to rip on BD since HD DVD got its @ss k!cked.

Fact: When a family friendly title like UP did 24% of its first week sales on the format, you need to be a luddite to think the format is not showing significant growth. Also Monsters Inc sold enough on BD (mind that it was not even re-released to DVD this last week) to make it to #6 in OVERALL DVD/BD sales.

Look at the real world facts and not more assinine opinions from pundits.

Here is a good article discussing the current state of home entertainment for the studios.




http://www.thewrap.com/article/crack-blu-ray-pot-gold-8564

Cherry pick much?

Its has been in vogue the last two years to rip on BD since HD DVD got its @ss k!cked.

Fact: When a family friendly title like UP did 24% of its first week sales on the format, you need to be a luddite to think the format is not showing significant growth. Also Monsters Inc sold enough on BD (mind that it was not even re-released to DVD this last week) to make it to #6 in OVERALL DVD/BD sales.

Look at the real world facts and not more assinine opinions from pundits that are probably staring at a player with the HD DVD logo on it.

Cherry pick much?

Its has been in vogue the last two years to rip on BD since HD DVD got its @ss k!cked.

Fact: When a family friendly title like UP did 24% of its first week sales on the format, you need to be a luddite to think the format is not showing significant growth. Also Monsters Inc sold enough on BD (mind that it was not even re-released to DVD this last week) to make it to #6 in OVERALL DVD/BD sales.

Look at the real world facts and not more assinine opinions from pundits that are probably staring at a player with the HD DVD logo on it.

Do you think the data in the article is wrong? Do you think Rentrak is bitter about HD DVD?

From the article:

More than three years since its U.S. launch, the savior format still only generates about 6 percent of total home entertainment revenue.

As a comparison, DVD at age 3 commanded fully 20 percent of home entertainment revenue back in 2000, when the standard format had been VHS -- according to industry tracking service the Digital Entertainment Group.

“The market is not being driven by Blu-ray right now,” conceded Brad Hackley, vice president of Rentrak, another tracking service. “The bulk of the transactions are still coming from standard-definition DVD.”

http://www.thewrap.com/article/crack-blu-ray-pot-gold-8564

What I find interesting and somewhat mis-leading is the comparison between DVD and BD in terms of revenue dollars instead of units. BD is a higher priced good (betting that average prices are north of $20/unit while DVD average prices are probably around $12/unit -- think of all the $5-$9 bargain bin catalog titles that get sold for every new release) and as such, comparing percent of total dollar sales over-represents it's market penetration. I understand why the reporting looks this way, after all business care about profit, and I'm certainly not explicitly implying that dollars are being used to present a particular picture . . . but I wonder what this debate would look like if we talked unit sales?

differently.

differently.
Not really, 374 posts so far and what has the thread really addressed...nothing.
Warner is still not selling to RB and the court case is on the back burner through the critical holiday release period.
Oh yah, coinstar is trading at $26 today, down from $36 in early august.

Not really, 374 posts so far and what has the thread really addressed...nothing.
Warner is still not selling to RB and the court case is on the back burner through the critical holiday release period.
Oh yah, coinstar is trading at $26 today, down from $36 in early august.

That is not true.

There were things said early on the thread that were not based on any sort of fact or logic. Fortunately, most it was cleared up by participation of folks who had the knowledge to share. It was ultimately a very educational thread on several topics.

Coinstar is trading at $26 - True

The court case is still pending - True

There may have been things said earlier in the thread that were cleared up however it turned into the usual "back and forth" around the 13th post - True...I submit as evidence the following: "Warner has the insane dream of ruling the world; they make me ill"....:D

Do you think the data in the article is wrong? Do you think Rentrak is bitter about HD DVD?

From the article:



http://www.thewrap.com/article/crack-blu-ray-pot-gold-8564

DVD started stronger by the fact that VHS was total crap. DVD picture was MUCH better than VHS and we don't even have to go into the issues of convenience, special features, no rewinding of tape, etc.

I think Blu-ray picture quality is much better but maybe I am one of the few that has good eyesight.

I think Blu-ray has been doing pretty good and will do better if we see some more lower movie prices and cheaper players. Sort of go hand in hand.

Coinstar is trading at $26 - True

The court case is still pending - True

There may have been things said earlier in the thread that were cleared up however it turned into the usual "back and forth" around the 13th post - True...I submit as evidence the following: "Warner has the insane dream of ruling the world; they make me ill"....:D

The info on Netflix stock being flat was wrong. It is up around $15/share.

The idea that Redbox (or Netflix) would be forced to accept a new window. Even Netflix has said they would support it... but would have to be given strong financial incentive to do it (in other words, Netflix and Redbox still have a major say in whether or not it happens).

Clearing up the price point for used discs from Redbox a few weeks after release... $7.

The idea that Redbox model somehow increased the number of overall discs sold. The model works for Redbox because one disc serves MANY customers for rental, and then gets resold taking away a sell-through opportunity.

The clarification that ALL of this is impacting the price of physical media. There has already been discussion about how holiday pricing this year is going to erode wholesale prices in 2010 as customers embrace new lower price points.


Thank you for the opportunity to point it all out again!

DVD started stronger by the fact that VHS was total crap. DVD picture was MUCH better than VHS and we don't even have to go into the issues of convenience, special features, no rewinding of tape, etc.

I think Blu-ray picture quality is much better but maybe I am one of the few that has good eyesight.

I think Blu-ray has been doing pretty good and will do better if we see some more lower movie prices and cheaper players. Sort of go hand in hand.

The issue for the studios is that Blu-ray was supposed to provide higher margins and value-pricing for their product.

If the end result is they end up charging the same for Blu-ray as for DVD, and have the added authoring, mastering and manufacturing costs (and with the addition of stuff like a DVD copy and digital copy the costs are not dropping)... then they have just lowered their own margin marketing to a smaller target audience.

The issue for the studios is that Blu-ray was supposed to provide higher margins and value-pricing for their product.

If the end result is they end up charging the same for Blu-ray as for DVD, and have the added authoring, mastering and manufacturing costs (and with the addition of stuff like a DVD copy and digital copy the costs are not dropping)... then they have just lowered their own margin marketing to a smaller target audience.

It is. Are you saying it isn't?

They are indeed charging the same as DVD...in ~2002-2004 DVD prices.

Bluray did reset the price, upwards by about $4-7.

Most new DVD single versions come out from $14-17. Most new blurays come out from about $20-25. Which is where DVD was a few years ago. So now bluray has reset the above $20 pricepoint, whereas DVD has been stuck at the below $20 price point.

Only in Q4 are we seeing such low bluray pricing on new releases, for obvious reasons (to spur adoption). I have a feeling those won't last after Q4 too long. For example, Warner is selling Terminator Salvation for $10 (http://www.amazon.com/Terminator-Salvation-Widescreen-Christian-Bale/dp/B001FB55HQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1259166494&sr=8-1-spell) on DVD...and ~$16 (http://www.amazon.com/Terminator-Salvation-Directors-Cut-Blu-ray/dp/B001FB55I0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1259166502&sr=8-1-spell) on bluray to spur sales. But you clearly see the $6 premium over the DVD, right?

If bluray costs them $2 more/disc to make then a DVD (probably less in mass volume), but they get an extra $4-7 retail from it, what is the problem? They just reset the price point they prefer and are making a few extra dollars/unit.

In fact, now they have a multi-tiered pricing structure, what with the single disc DVD, double disc special DVD, and bluray. More diverse.

Bluray has reset to DVD pricing at ~it's peak sales period. And will keep up a $4-7 premium for a few more years, thus extending physical media, AS WAS INTENDED. But we all know how you feel about physical media.

Of course I expect you to disagree....3...2...

It is.

They are indeed charging the same as DVD...in ~2002-2004 DVD prices.

Bluray did reset the price, upwards by about $4-7.

Most new DVD single versions come out form $14-17. Most new blurays come out from about $20-25. Which is where DVD was a few years ago. So now bluray has reset the above $20 pricepoint, whereas DVD has been stuck at the below $20 price point.

Only in Q4 are we seeing such low bluray pricing on new releases, for obvious reasons (to spur adoption). I have a feeling those won't last after Q4 too long. For example, Warner is selling Terminator Salvation for $10 (http://www.amazon.com/Terminator-Salvation-Widescreen-Christian-Bale/dp/B001FB55HQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1259166494&sr=8-1-spell) on DVD...and ~$16 (http://www.amazon.com/Terminator-Salvation-Directors-Cut-Blu-ray/dp/B001FB55I0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1259166502&sr=8-1-spell) on bluray to spur sales. But you clearly see the $6 premium.

If bluray costs them $2 more/disc to make then a DVD (probably less in volume), but they get an extra $4-7 retail from it, what is the problem? They just reset the price point they prefer and are making a few extra dollars/unit.

Of course I expect you to disagree....3...2...

I will always disagree with someone who is missing information.

The discussion of the pricing this holiday season is that it is happening even before studios expected. That drives down consumer expectations on prices, which drives down wholesale prices which directly impacts the studios.

This is not rocket science.

This thread has information on the price erosion of media.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17523959#post17523959

Here is some of the most relevant to this conversation:

The media price war, which has seen dramatic price cuts in prices of books and DVDs, has now spread to Blu-Ray discs.

Video Business, a trade magazine, reported yesterday that Best Buy (BBY), Amazon.com (AMZN) and Wal-Mart (WMT) have set aggressive prices on the Blu-Ray versions of key new video titles, including Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Price, The Hangover, Terminator: Salvation, Night at the Museum: Battle of the Smithsonian and Stark Trek. Normally priced at about $25 for Blu-Ray editions, those titles are now seeing prices in the $16-$17 range. In a leaked upcoming Black Friday promotion, Target (TGT) is planning to offer some catalog Blu-Ray titles for as low as $3.99, with some TV season sets as low as $8.99.

While lower pricing certainly should lift volume of Blu-Ray disc sales, Greenfield does not see this as positive development for the movie business.

“Lowering price dramatically on standard definition and Blu-Ray DVDs will only make it harder for consumers to spend full retail prices on DVDs in 2010,” he writes. “While the economy is recovering and certain DVD titles have performed well in the early part of Q4 2009, we believe consumer spending on DVDs will almost certainly decline again in 2010, with (less-profitable) rental continuing to grow its market share at the expense of retail DVD sales, particularly if pricing steps up significantly in Q1 2010 from Q4 2009 levels. We fear Wal-Mart’s (and other retailers’) price cuts will ultimately pressure wholesale pricing.”

http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/11/12/media-price-war-continues-this-time-in-blu-ray-discs/?mod=yahoobarrons

I will always disagree with someone who is missing information.

The discussion of the pricing this holiday season is that it is happening even before studios expected. That drives down consumer expectations on prices, which drives down wholesale prices which directly impacts the studios.

This is not rocket science.

Wait, so the studios never allowed doorbuster pricing on DVDs in 2002? 2003? 2004? Where the price was waaaaay lower than normal?

OMG, so there are sales in Q4 that are pricing products lower than they would normally be!!!:eek: Has this ever happened before?:confused::rolleyes:

Surely in 2002 there weren't any of those weird DVD doorbuster sales that priced a new release DVD at $10. Oddly though, in 2008, some 6 years later, they were still able to sell about 10 million DVDs of The Dark Knight for well over that $10 price threshold.

So you are saying that because a product goes on sales at a reduced price for a limited time, no one will EVER buy it again at it's normal price? Weak. I have seen this argument over and over again from people that don't like bluray (or physical media), mostly coinciding some underlying bitterness or other motivations.

So, according to you, no one is going to buy Twilight New Moon on DVD or bluray when it comes out sometime in March 2010 or so for anything more than $10-15, since that is what titles were priced at in Q4. Riiiight.....

Q4 = sales. After Q4, prices reset back to normal levels. This has happened ever year for a long long long time.

This is not rocket science.

Wait, so the studios never allowed doorbuster pricing on DVDs in 2002? 2003? 2004? Where the price was waaaaay lower than normal?

OMG, so there are sales in Q4 that are pricing products lower than they would normally be!!!:eek: Has this ever happened before?:confused::rolleyes:

Surely in 2002 there weren't any of those weird DVD doorbuster sales that priced a new release DVD at $10. Oddly though, in 2008, some 6 years later, they were still able to sell about 10 million DVDs of The Dark Knight for well over that $10 price threshold.

So you are saying that because a product goes on sales at a reduced price for a limited time, no one will EVER buy it again at it's normal price? Weak. I have seen this argument over and over again from people that don't like bluray (or physical media), mostly coinciding some underlying bitterness or other motivations.

So, according to you, no one is going to buy Twilight New Moon on DVD or bluray when it comes out sometime in March 2010 or so for anything more than $10-15, since that is what titles were priced at in Q4. Riiiight.....

Q4 = sales. After Q4, prices reset back to normal levels. This has happened ever year for a long long long time.

This is not rocket science.

Sorry, but I am not going to fall for the strawman argument.

I never asserted the things you stated and you know it. Discount pricing does not SET the new price point, and I never said it did.

The reality is that discount pricing during holidays does put downward pressure on pricing. Analysts know it. Studios know it. And anyone who is watching the business instead of trying to throw out ad hominems (ie: "underlying bitterness or other motivations) understand and know it.

You seem to be emotionally attached to the subject. It is unfortunate as it appears to be clouding your ability to speak rationally on the topic. Irrationality does not change the current market conditions facing the studios. I bet some of the studio execs wish it would! ;)


EDIT: BTW... I paid exactly $10 for the Dark Knight at Target shortly after it's release. Price erosion is a reality.

This thread has information on the price erosion of media.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17523959#post17523959

Here is some of the most relevant to this conversation:

While lower pricing certainly should lift volume of Blu-Ray disc sales, Greenfield does not see this as positive development for the movie business.

“Lowering price dramatically on standard definition and Blu-Ray DVDs will only make it harder for consumers to spend full retail prices on DVDs in 2010,” he writes. “While the economy is recovering and certain DVD titles have performed well in the early part of Q4 2009, we believe consumer spending on DVDs will almost certainly decline again in 2010, with (less-profitable) rental continuing to grow its market share at the expense of retail DVD sales, particularly if pricing steps up significantly in Q1 2010 from Q4 2009 levels. We fear Wal-Mart’s (and other retailers’) price cuts will ultimately pressure wholesale pricing.”

http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/11/12/media-price-war-continues-this-time-in-blu-ray-discs/?mod=yahoobarrons

This happens every Q4.

When DVDs were on sale in Q4 2005....how did they ever continue to sell DVDs at "normal" pricing in 2006?

When DVDs were on sale in Q4 2006....how did they ever continue to sell DVDs at "normal" pricing in 2007?

When DVDs were on sale in Q4 2007....how did they ever continue to sell DVDs at "normal" pricing in 2008?

This question could have been asked every year for the last decade. People expect deals in Q4...not so much in Q2.

If this were true, no DVDs released outside of Q4 would ever sell well, because no one would pay the normal price, right? They are all expecting sale prices., right??

I offer you Twilight as one simple example of how this ideology is flawed. It came out in March 2009, with normal DVD and bluray pricing. And sold 6 million copies in two weeks. Weren't people expecting it to be sold for $10 on DVD, and would swear to NEVER buy it otherwise??? But that didn't happen. It was priced normally, and sold millions, and is still the #1 DVD of the year, although it was released in March at standard pricing. Please explain how that happened....

Sorry, but I am not going to fall for the strawman argument.

I never asserted the things you stated and you know it. Discount pricing does not SET the new price point, and I never said it did.

The reality is that discount pricing during holidays does put downward pressure on pricing. Analysts know it. Studios know it. And anyone who is watching the business instead of trying to throw out ad hominems (ie: "underlying bitterness or other motivations) understand and know it.

You seem to be emotionally attached to the subject. It is unfortunate as it appears to be clouding your ability to speak rationally on the topic. Irrationality does not change the current market conditions facing the studios. I bet some of the studio execs wish it would! ;)

Please. It is insulting to suggest that my comments are not rational. You do know what irrational means right?

Where have I made any outlandish comments or claims that would suggest an irrational stance?

I am not the one that thread craps every thread, like you do. And I think more people would agree with me than you...I guess we are all irrational, huh?

...
EDIT: BTW... I paid exactly $10 for the Dark Knight at Target shortly after it's release. Price erosion is a reality.

1) Please define "shortly".

2) I assume this was on DVD then. Funny, why didn't you buy it on bluray? In HIGH DEFINITION?? You spend a lot of time in the HD section(s), but are still buying new releases on DVD "shortly" after their release??? Why not HD????????? Quite...interesting.

3) Price erosion is a reality for any technology. As things get older they tend to cost less. This is not new.

This happens every Q4.

When DVDs were on sale in Q4 2005....how did they ever continue to sell DVDs at "normal" pricing in 2006?

When DVDs were on sale in Q4 2006....how did they ever continue to sell DVDs at "normal" pricing in 2007?

When DVDs were on sale in Q4 2007....how did they ever continue to sell DVDs at "normal" pricing in 2008?

This question could have been asked every year for the last decade. People expect deals in Q4...not so much in Q2.

If this were true, no DVDs released outside of Q4 would ever sell well, because no one would pay the normal price, right?

I offer you Twilight as one simple example of how this ideology is flawed. It came out in March, with normal DVD and bluray pricing. And sold 6 million copies in two weeks. Weren't people expecting it to be sold for $10 on DVD, and would NEVER buy it otherwise??? But that didn't happen. It was priced normally, and sold millions.

What has been the pricing trend and the revenue trend of physical media from 2005 - 2009? Those are the years you mention in the post until the present.

That should point a very clear picture of the trend you are trying to argue against.

Please. It is insulting to suggest that my comments are not rational. You do know what irrational means right?

Where have I made any outlandish comments or claims that would suggest an irrational stance?

I am not the one that thread craps every thread, like you do. And I think more people would agree with me than you...I guess we are all irrational, huh?

You stated:

So you are saying that because a product goes on sales at a reduced price for a limited time, no one will EVER buy it again at it's normal price?

That is an irrational statement. I never stated or implied any such thing. The fact that you went there shows that you are indeed being irrational on this topic.

Your entire tone suggests a strong emotional reaction to the pricing of shiny discs. Unless you are being directly financially impacted by this, I would consider an emotional reaction to be irrational.

I really don't want to go down the route of breaking down your posts this way. It does not serve the conversation. If you want to argue the point, please show how media pricing has increased or remained stable after sharp discounts during holiday period. All the data I have seen (and the general market seems to agree) that sharp discounting of product boosts short term sales at the expense of changing customers viewing of the value of the product.

What has been the pricing trend and the revenue trend of physical media from 2005 - 2009? Those are the years you mention in the post until the present.

That should point a very clear picture of the trend you are trying to argue against.

Did I ever say anything about long term pricing trends?

Do you think I am not aware that the average price of a DVD in 2009 is much less than it was in 2002?

Do you think I am not aware that the average price of a bluray in 2009 is much less than it was in 2006?

How much are cassette tapes these days?

I have argued that bluray has reset the DVD price point from ~2002-2004. Are you saying that is incorrect????

Did I ever say that bluray pricing would not go down over time?? Nope.

I am fully aware that as technologies grow older, they lower in price.

Another good summary of the situation facing studios:


Studio executives used to cringe at newly released theatrical DVDs selling for below $15 their first week in stores, generally at big discount chains like Wal-Mart and Target. The mass merchants were using DVDs as loss leaders to drive traffic into their stores, devaluing the product in the consumer's eyes and later coming back to the studios and complaining about margins. Studio executives were reluctant to lower wholesale prices, even though that's what their big retail customers wanted, and all of a sudden that taboo word that's not supposed to be discussed in public — pricing — was on everyone's tongues.

Now, we're finding loss-leader pricing has come to Blu-ray, a year before anyone expected it to. Wal-Mart and several other mass merchants are advertising, and selling, hot new Blu-ray Disc releases for less than $20 — and this, mind you, is before Black Friday, when we traditionally see the lowest prices all year for everything from digital cameras and computers to kitchen sinks (I mean that literally).

Studio executives, frankly, don't know what to think. They're stunned to see it happening so soon, and worried that in the future not only will their visions of incremental profits fade away faster than those visions of sugarplums we keep hearing about each Christmas, but that retailers will start pressuring them for lower wholesale prices and, before you know it, Blu-ray Disc will suffer the same price erosion that plagued DVD within several years of that format's launch — something studio executives have vowed to not let happen again.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/tks-take/loss-leadering-coming-blu-ray-disc

...Your entire tone suggests a strong emotional reaction to the pricing of shiny discs. Unless you are being directly financially impacted by this, I would consider an emotional reaction to be irrational. ...And your use of "shiny discs" also suggests a certain tone....and I noticed you never answered me as to why you bought Dark Knight on DVD instead of bluray, when you dwell so much in HD forums. Weird.............

I think most people here would agree that you are the one with the emotional attachment, since you enter every thread and do just what you are doing now...downplaying the thing that you have little interest in (physical media) while lifting up your agenda (any stream to any screen).

I have two Netflix players in my house, that should warm your heart. I enjoy both Netflix streaming and physical media HD bluray rentals. CAN YOU SAY THE SAME?? Do you enjoy the current best HD around, bluray? Or are you still buying STANARD DEF. DVDs at Target, but yet stalking so much in HD parts of the forum???

I really don't want to go down the route of breaking down your posts this way. It does not serve the conversation. If you want to argue the point, please show how media pricing has increased or remained stable after sharp discounts during holiday period. All the data I have seen (and the general market seems to agree) that sharp discounting of product boosts short term sales at the expense of changing customers viewing of the value of the product.

You are essentially arguing against the yearly cyclical nature that is known as Q4...Black Friday, etc.

So I guess no one will ever buy a $600 laptop anymore after Friday since the price on Black Friday is $200, right? It changed the customers viewing of the value of the product, right?

You are confusing the downward pricing of products as they grow old with the cyclical retail sales period known as Q4.

Pricing goes down temporarily in Q4 to drive sales, and then rises back to normal levels afterwards. Happens every year.

Pricing in general declines year after year because that particular product/technology gets old and something new and improved comes out. Just like 3D will come out and reset the pricing again for the CE tech world (assuming people buy in).

These are two different trends, and nothing earth shattering to me.

Another good summary of the situation facing studios:




http://www.homemediamagazine.com/tks-take/loss-leadering-coming-blu-ray-disc

And? So prices are coming down "a year earlier" than they would have liked? Oh no, a year earlier!:rolleyes:

Price erosion is a natural thing for technology. Sometimes it happens faster, sometimes not. All depends on the market demand...and obviously (in hindsight) the economy (....think disposable income). That is why, year after year, like clockwork,they come out with a new model TV...and new model computer...a new model iPod...a new model XXX.

Is this supposed to be news?

And? So prices are coming down a year earlier than they would have liked? Oh no, a year earlier!:rolleyes:

Price erosion is a natural thing for technology. That is why, year after year, like clockwork,they come out with a new model TV...and new model computer...a new model iPod...a new model XXX.

Is this supposed to be news?

The studios do not consider their content to be "technology". The hardware is indeed technology and has a clear downward pricing trend based on cost and adoption trends.

Content is value-priced. The perceived value of that content is eroded by loss-leader pricing, as well as by business like Redbox that can grow and make a healthy profit at a price point that is lower than what the studios think their content is worth.

The trend is not in the studios best interest. And my original point is absolutely correct. The pricing erosion of physical media is hurting the studios. With Blu-ray, it is magnified as it was supposed to provide higher price points, revenue and margin to make up for the higher associated cost. If it quickly hits DVD level pricing, then the studios will be worse off than they were before. Namely by having to provide content on a format with higher authoring, mastering and manufacturing costs that is targeting a smaller audience.

I am glad you acknowledge that pricing erosion is real. Now you need to comprehend that the studios do not consider it a good thing, and indeed believe that the value of their content is higher than what it is currently being offered for with loss-leader pricing and $1 rentals.

The studios do not consider their content to be "technology". The hardware is indeed technology and has a clear downward pricing trend based on cost and adoption trends.

Content is value-priced. The perceived value of that content is eroded by loss-leader pricing, as well as by business like Redbox that can grow and make a healthy profit at a price point that is lower than what the studios think their content is worth.

The trend is not in the studios best interest. And my original point is absolutely correct. The pricing erosion of physical media is hurting the studios. With Blu-ray, it is magnified as it was supposed to provide higher price points, revenue and margin to make up for the higher associated cost. If it quickly hits DVD level pricing, then the studios will be worse off than they were before. Namely by having to provide content on a format with higher authoring, mastering and manufacturing costs that is targeting a smaller audience.

I am glad you acknowledge that pricing erosion is real. Now you need to comprehend that the studios do not consider it a good thing, and indeed believe that the value of their content is higher than what it is currently being offered for with loss-leader pricing and $1 rentals.

I could not care less about the studios needs and desires and expectations of their content. The studios have made a plethora of mistakes and misjudgments that have gotten them where they currently are and has very little to do with physical media.

So how are the studios going to convince people to pay for streaming when Netflix is giving it away with the price of a DVD subscription?

Seems like the tougher battle to me is convincing how to make people pay for DIGITAL media they currently get for free on Hulu, Netflix, Youtube, etc........instead of normal price erosion of PHYSICAL consumer products.

Maybe you should be worrying about that instead of price erosion of HD physical media, of which you seem to not be interested in enjoying at all..........
...EDIT: BTW... I paid exactly $10 for the Dark Knight at Target shortly after it's release. Price erosion is a reality.

So did you buy The Dark Knight on DVD or what? Cause I am pretty sure the Dark Knight bluray has never been on sale for $10 before at Target, so you MUST have bought the standard definition DVD. Why not in HD on bluray? You are interested in HD content right....why are you still buying new releases on standard definition DVD? Surely you have a bluray player, right??? Right??

Maybe that fancy LG models that streams VUDU, Netflix, Cinemanow, etc., and that you NEVER have to stick a disc in to get content? Surely someone like you that so highly values digital (streaming) content has the LGBD390 which offers the most bang for your digital buck, right????

Maybe that new Sony model that streams media for 20+ services, including Amazon VOD and Netflix? Surely, being the digital aficionado that you are you have one of these players that gives you access to any stream to any screen, right????????????

Why don't you share with us which digital services you currently use and enjoy??

I could not care less about the studios needs and desires and expectations of their content. The studios have made a plethora of mistakes and misjudgments that have gotten them where they currently are and has very little to do with physical media.

So how are the studios going to convince people to pay for streaming when Netflix is giving it away with the price of a DVD subscription?

Seems like the tougher battle to me is convincing how to make people pay for DIGITAL media they currently get for free on Hulu, Netflix, Youtube, etc........instead of normal price erosion of PHYSICAL consumer products.

Maybe you should be worrying about that instead of price erosion of HD physical media, of which you seem to not be interested in enjoying at all..........

Netflix defines their business as DVD by mail and movies via streaming. That is their offering. They are paying studios (or their intermediaries) for permission to stream movies to their customers. That is their business and they are doing it VERY well, increasing revenue for themselves and the studios.


So did you buy The Dark Knight on DVD or what?

I bought it on DVD because it was $10. I do not buy many movies anymore because my purchasing habits have changed. After building a large DVD library and realizing I did not actually view the content often enough to warrant a purchase, I decided not to duplicate that again. $10 for a movie I will re-watch was the right value proposition to me and prompted me to purchase. I am guessing there are many like me who no longer buy they way they used to. Price erosion in action.


Maybe that fancy LG models that streams VUDU, Netflix, Cinemanow, etc., and that you NEVER have to stick a disc in to get content? Surely someone like you that so highly values digital (streaming) content has the LGBD390 which offers the most bang for your digital buck, right????

Maybe that new Sony model that streams media for 20+ services, including Amazon VOD and Netflix? Surely, being the digital aficionado that you are you have one of these players that gives you access to any stream to any screen, right????????????

Why don't you share with us which digital services you currently use and enjoy??

We should probably discuss this in the appropriate forum. It is odd how people complain so much when streaming and Digital Distribution is discussed in this forum, but they can't seem to help introducing the topic here.

I could not care less about the studios needs and desires and expectations of their content. The studios have made a plethora of mistakes and misjudgments that have gotten them where they currently are and has very little to do with physical media.

Back on topic. Do you comprehend that studios do not view their content as technology?

With that knowledge, do you see how price erosion causes them concern and how the swift devaluing of Blu-ray is cause for worry?

Netflix defines their business as DVD by mail and movies via streaming. That is their offering. They are paying studios (or their intermediaries) for permission to stream movies to their customers. That is their business and they are doing it VERY well, increasing revenue for themselves and the studios.

Great. So what about Hulu? Youtube? Crackle? The ABC/NBC/CBS official sites that stream their shows for free?

You have to admit...people are becoming used to not paying for digital content. How will the studios reverse that? Who wants to suddenyl pay for something they were getting for free?

There isn't even a price to erode with digital content....as most of it is consumed for FREE. That should be most worrisome....

I bought it on DVD because it was $10. I do not buy many movies anymore because my purchasing habits have changed. After building a large DVD library and realizing I did not actually view the content often enough to warrant a purchase, I decided not to duplicate that again. $10 for a movie I will re-watch was the right value proposition to me and prompted me to purchase. I am guessing there are many like me who no longer buy they way they used to. Price erosion in action. Right. So you intentionally bought it in SD. Gotcha.

If you intend to rewatch it - why wouldn't you buy it in the best possible presentation??? That being bluray.

Weird.

We should probably discuss this in the appropriate forum. It is odd how people complain so much when streaming and Digital Distribution is discussed in this forum, but they can't seem to help introducing the topic here.

Pick a forum. Pretty please do. In fact, how about you reply to this comment with a link to the forum that has the hardware that you currently own that allows you access to whatever digital content service you currently enjoy.

Real simple...just post a link, or simply T Y P E O U T in your reply the hardware you own that allows you to enjoy the digital (streaming) media you speak so highly of.

Back on topic. Do you comprehend that studios do not view their content as technology?

With that knowledge, do you see how price erosion causes them concern and how the swift devaluing of Blu-ray is cause for worry?

Do you comprehend that it doesn't matter how the studios view it...it matters how the consumers view it. The studios can view their turds as roses...but I bet the consumer won't. The consumer decides what they spend their money on.

If the consumer perceives a product as new or improved, the consumer will pay new or improved prices. If the consumer starts to see the former new and improved as being old - guess what - they will no longer pay the previous pricing for that item. DVD is over the hill. Bluray has a few years on it now too. Neither are fresh flowers. Naturally people like to pay less overtime for what they perceive as older, established products. Doesn't mean people won't be buying them for the next decade or two.

The studios have a bigger problem, in that how will digital media sales make up for physical media sales, when most digital media is viewed for free (legally or illegally). The bulk of digital media consumed right now can't erode in price.......because people are consuming it FOR FREE.:eek:

Do you see how this causes them concern?? And a bigger concern...you know...since digital is the future and all. Funny, they are actively training people to get digital content for free instead of paying for it. Hmm.......tough road ahead.

Great. So what about Hulu? Youtube? Crackle? The ABC/NBC/CBS official sites that stream their shows for free?

You have to admit...people are becoming used to not paying for digital content. How will the studios reverse that? Who wants to suddenyl pay for something they were getting for free?

There isn't even a price to erode with digital content....as most of it is consumed for FREE. That should be most worrisome....

Except that most of that content is already "free" and supported via ads (just like those sites). There is a reason why so much research is going into measuring and providing "ratings" for those services. It will help them correctly target and price ads.

Again... this is all about Digital Distribution. There is a more appropriate forum for that.

Right. So you intentionally bought it in SD. Gotcha.

If you intend to rewatch it - why wouldn't you buy it in the best possible presentation??? That being bluray.

Weird.

Not really. It is about value. That is why even as Blu-ray hardware penetration increases, you will still have people choosing DVD software over Blu-ray software. Price matters to the consumer.

Just like cost matters to the studios.

What is weird is that you do not comprehend that simple fact.


Pick a forum. Pretty please do. In fact, how about you reply to this comment with a link to the forum that has the hardware that you currently own that allows you access to whatever digital content service you currently enjoy.

Real simple...just post a link, or simply T Y P E O U T in your reply the hardware you own that allows you to enjoy the digital (streaming) media you speak so highly of.

??

I am not sure I understand. Right now I do all of my streaming via either the XBox 360 or my PC as they provide the best interface and quality based on the offering. Again, there is a more appropriate forum to discuss streaming and Digital Distribution.

...??

I am not sure I understand. Right now I do all of my streaming via either the XBox 360 or my PC as they provide the best interface and quality based on the offering. Again, there is a more appropriate forum to discuss streaming and Digital Distribution.

That is your opinion. And, quite possibly, factually wrong. VUDU is the best digital streaming quality. You don't have VUDU? What happened to "any stream to any screen"? Maybe you should change that to "any stream to any screen (for the right price)". VUDU too expensive for you? Me too.

Do you have the HD DVD add on for your 360?

Do you have a gold xbox plan required to view Netflix?

Is your PC connected to your TV? Can it output 5.1 audio, which is available with Amazon VOD?

So you have no access to Vudu (the BEST streaming for content), CinemaNow, Blockbuster VOD or Amazon VOD? All of which are offered in bluray players? No ROKU box?? I mean, for all of your support and endless talk of digital (streaming) media...it appears to me that you are quite limited right now in your options, and are leaving the best Streaming on the table. No interest in any bluray players that provide access to digital services? Why not? $200 can get you into the game streaming WAY more content to your TV than you can right now.

Do you comprehend that it doesn't matter how the studios view it...it matters how the consumers view it. The studios can view their turds as roses...but I bet the consumer won't. The consumer decides what they spend their money on.

If the consumer perceives a product as new or improved, the consumer will pay new or improved prices. If the consumer starts to see the former new and improved as being old - guess what - they will no longer pay the previous pricing for that item. DVD is over the hill. Bluray has a few years on it now too. Neither are fresh flowers. Naturally people like to pay less overtime for what they perceive as older, established products. Doesn't mean people won't be buying them for the next decade or two.

That is a very bleak view for the studios. It also reinforces the basic issue that Blu-ray has higher authoring, mastering and manufacturing costs with quickly eroding value. You may not care, but that will have an impact on the studios... which will impact movie production and availability.


The studios have a bigger problem, in that how will digital media sales make up for physical media sales, when most digital media is viewed for free (legally or illegally). The bulk of digital media consumed right now can't erode in price.......because people are consuming it FOR FREE.:eek:

Do you see how this causes them concern?? And a bigger concern...you know...since digital is the future and all. Funny, they are actively training people to get digital content for free instead of paying for it. Hmm.......tough road ahead.

Movies can also currently be viewed for free via OTA, etc. That is part of the long established release windows. That has not been what has eroded content value.

Movies are not available to be streamed for free day/date with DVD. Indeed they are available for purchase/rental (both via VOD and streaming) and represent both a growing segment AND one that provides incredibly healthy margins for studios:

"The margins that movie studios make on a rental from VOD are much better than the margins they make through" Blockbuster Inc. (BBI) or Netflix Inc. (NFLX), "so it has always been a riddle as to why the studios haven't been quicker to embrace it," said Craig Moffett, analyst with Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. "The prospects for making progress on this issue now are much better than they used to be."

In 2007, Comcast offered nine films on VOD at the same time they were released on DVD. In 2008, that number climbed to 35. It totaled 68 through the first nine months of this year, and the company expects it to go over 100 by year-end. Meanwhile, Comcast is averaging over 350 million VOD views a month this year, up from 300 million last year and 250 million in 2007.

"As they see the DVD business change and decline, the studios are looking to VOD and electronic sell-through and other non-physical ways to distribute movies with a completely different mindset," said Comcast Chief Executive Brian Roberts on a recent conference call.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17599683#post17599683


The concept of "free" streaming is a total red herring as the release window model also exists in Digital Distribution. Again... a topic for another forum. not sure why you insist on bringing the topic of streaming and Digital Distribution to this forum. On the plus side, even more misinformation is getting cleared up.

So you are saying that because a product goes on sales at a reduced price for a limited time, no one will EVER buy it again at it's normal price? Weak. I have seen this argument over and over again from people that don't like bluray (or physical media), mostly coinciding some underlying bitterness or other motivations.

Q4 = sales. After Q4, prices reset back to normal levels. This has happened ever year for a long long long time.

This is not rocket science.
Correct.
this has happened with blu-ray the last 2 years.
Great sales/bargains during Q4 then Q1 of the next year, back to MSRP.

With players hitting $78-130 price points in the next several weeks and blu-ray prices hitting $9-19 price points, this strategy is nothing more than to get the consumer on board with blu-ray in favor of DVD to accellerate adoption. Heck, even the Toshiba blu-ray player can be had for $149 at BBY.:)

Correct.
this has happened with blu-ray the last 2 years.
Great sales/bargains during Q4 then Q1 of the next year, back to MSRP.

With players hitting $78-130 price points in the next several weeks and blu-ray prices hitting $9-19 price points, this strategy is nothing more than to get the consumer on board with blu-ray in favor of DVD to accellerate adoption. Heck, even the Toshiba blu-ray player can be had for $149 at BBY.:)

I will ask this question of you:

Can you show me the retail pricing trends for Blu-ray over the last two years?

Keep in mind that the studios do not price their content based on their costs, but on the "value" they believe the content is worth.

Studios can go to hell if they think I'll go back to renting new releases for $4.50 plus tax for one day.

But they really don't have any say in the matter considering that studios in no way control the delivery system of DVDs. The only thing they can get their hands on so far is downloads and streaming and the only weapon in their arsenal is telling Netflix "Oh no, you can't stream that yet, it's too new and that will hurt our sales."

What exactly is this thread about?:confused::eek:

What exactly is this thread about?:confused::eek:

The possibility of studios creating a sell through time period (30 to 45 days) and then you will be able to rent a D/D movie.

Want to see the movie when it is first released? Buy it. Want to rent it? Wait 4 to 6 weeks.

Studios can go to hell if they think I'll go back to renting new releases for $4.50 plus tax for one day.


But most people keep a rental for more than a day and that's how Redbox lures renters into their scheme.
If your disciplined to return a rental within a day, you are in the minority.
After a couple of rentals from the Redbox that are longer than 1 day, people catch on when they get their credit card bill and realize those $1 rentals add up when they keep them longer than 1 day.
Then they realize it's cheaper signing up with Netflix or even better, BlockBuster and get in store exchanges for free or $1.99 for new releases.

btw:
Still haven't seen any blu-ray's available for rental at these Redboxes. :)

No...it's about a studio telling a rental company to go pound sand with regards to release date sales to said rental company...and the ability of said studio to prevail for now. Read the OP. Check your own agenda at the door.
Nothing has changed since the OP, Warner still refuses sales to RB.

All the rest is smoke and mirrors.

It is about studios trying to control the rental window, and not having any way to do it with physical media due to the First Sale Doctrine. It is also about the fall-out of that fact.

How the rental pricing impacts the studios ability to get the price they want for sell-through, etc. and what it means to studios (and ultimately consumers).

The fallout:
After the rental company pounded sand it's stock price was pounded down by 30%... in a rising market. Red Box rules!

The fallout:
After the rental company pounded sand it's stock price was pounded down by 30%... in a rising market. Red Box rules!

So how is the stock price of Netflix doing?

Analyst Downgrades Netflix

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/netflix/analyst-downgrades-netflix-17698

;)

So how is the stock price of Netflix doing?

Coinstar
http://i45.tinypic.com/2mhip8z.jpg

Netflix
http://i49.tinypic.com/2u4suq9.jpg

Things are going well for NF right now. They are buying back stock which will increase its value and it has not decided to go to war with the studios. Nor does it turn around and dump used inventory where it eats.
NF offers the same service with the exceptions that you don't have to drive to them and they offer a number of ways to view. They may be overvalued at this point which time will tell.
Too bad the streaming selection is so pathetic.

Redbox Accuses Fox, Warner of Retailer Interference

Wal-Mart, Best Buy and Target all have told Redbox representatives they can’t buy more than three copies of any new-release DVD, according to new court filings in the kiosk operator’s ongoing lawsuits with Warner Home Video and 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/legal-news/redbox-accuses-fox-warner-retailer-interference-17735

Redbox Accuses Fox, Warner of Retailer Interference



http://www.homemediamagazine.com/legal-news/redbox-accuses-fox-warner-retailer-interference-17735

If true, this is a huge mistake by the studios. The last thing they want is to have the court to state that they are colluding in an anti-competitive manner against Redbox... particularly if they are pressuring resellers in behaving in a manner that is otherwise not in the reseller's best interest.

RB...poor babies.

I'm guessing if you went to buy a copy of your favorite dvd and there were none because the RB guy just scooped the last 10, you'd be p****d.

Besides, retailers have always been able to restrict quantities to customers, it insures that there is enough to satisfy demand ...so, what's new here? Issue RB a rain check:D:D

RB...poor babies.

I'm guessing if you went to buy a copy of your favorite dvd and there were none because the RB guy just scooped the last 10, you'd be p****d.

Besides, retailers have always been able to restrict quantities to customers, it insures that there is enough to satisfy demand ...so, what's new here? Issue RB a rain check:D:D

You do understand that whatever happens to DVD, also happens to BD as far as these 3 studios go. RB would be very helpful in promoting the BD format.

Some of you people need to get a grip on the real world. Retailers have and continue to limit the quantities of certain items (even items like soda pop and hard drives) for purchase at retail. I see it in adds all the time.

Sometime back Walmart and Netflix executives had a some meetings, not long afterward Walmart stopped renting/downloading movies and Netflix stopped selling DVDs. Coincidence or contrived? To date no one has proved it to be a contrived business deal.

One also needs to remember that Blockbuster and Netflix have publicly stated that they are OK with a rental window. As I stated much earlier, RB, “If you want to play then you will have to pay”.

You do understand that whatever happens to DVD, also happens to BD as far as these 3 studios go. RB would be very helpful in promoting the BD format.Sony does not agree with you at this point in time. Sony has a rental agreement with Redbox but it excludes Blu-ray rentals. Lionsgate has a rental agreement with Redbox but it includes Blu-ray rentals.

Some of you people need to get a grip on the real world. Retailers have and continue to limit the quantities of certain items (even items like soda pop and hard drives) for purchase at retail. I see it in adds all the time.

Sometime back Walmart and Netflix executives had a some meetings, not long afterward Walmart stopped renting/downloading movies and Netflix stopped selling DVDs. Coincidence or contrived? To date no one has proved it to be a contrived business deal.

One also needs to remember that Blockbuster and Netflix have publicly stated that they are OK with a rental window. As I stated much earlier, RB, “If you want to play then you will have to pay”.


And lets not forget the "limiting" or throttling of discs being sent out by Netflix and Blockbuster when they see that you are efficient at watching and returning movies quickly. I ditched Netflix for this very reason since I was on their one-at-time plan and I could see a pattern that near the middle of the month, it would take a day or two longer for them to send out movies.
I have the same issue with Blockbuster but at least the free instore exchanges helps me get more rentals than with the Netflix plan.

Some of you people need to get a grip on the real world. Retailers have and continue to limit the quantities of certain items (even items like soda pop and hard drives) for purchase at retail. I see it in adds all the time.

Unless the industry is an oligopoly (like the movie industry) and they are colluding to prevent an otherwise legitimate business from operating legally. The studios do NOT want it to come out in court that they put any sort of pressure on retailers to specifically prevent Redbox from acquiring their content in the retail market. That would open a slew of anti-trust issues.

Redbox's filing has merit if there is any evidence to suggest the studios pressured retailers to change their habits... and if multiple retailers suddenly implemented or started enforcing this policy, then the court should allow for discovery.

Sometime back Walmart and Netflix executives had a some meetings, not long afterward Walmart stopped renting/downloading movies and Netflix stopped selling DVDs. Coincidence or contrived? To date no one has proved it to be a contrived business deal.

There is no secret here. They made a business deal and even sent out press releases about it. Whether or not this constitutes price fixing is another story (and one for the courts to decide).

Don't know why you think it was some sort of back room deal....

Wal-Mart (NYSE:WMT) and Netflix (Nasdaq: NFLX) today announced a joint promotional agreement covering their core online movie businesses --Walmart.com's movie sales and Netflix's DVD movie rentals. Now, these two online retail companies, each with strong, complementary expertise in online movie services, are engaging in a promotional arrangement to market one another's key movie business at their respective websites.

As movie sales at Walmart.com continue to accelerate, the company is strengthening its commitment to this core business, and as a result, is discontinuing the Wal-Mart DVD Rentals service. Walmart.com's existing DVD Rentals customers will be offered the option to become Netflix subscribers at their current Wal-Mart rate for one year from the date they sign-up. Via its website (www.walmart.com/movies), Walmart.com will also promote and refer customers interested in online DVD rentals to Netflix.

In return, Netflix will promote Wal-Mart's online movie sales business, including the pre-order price guarantee option at Walmart.com, both at its website (www.netflix.com) and in mailers sent to Netflix subscribers. The pre-order price guarantee ensures customers the lowest available price on pre-order movies.

http://www.netflix.com/MediaCenter?id=5281



One also needs to remember that Blockbuster and Netflix have publicly stated that they are OK with a rental window. As I stated much earlier, RB, “If you want to play then you will have to pay”.

Blockbuster says they are OK with it because they want to continue charging $4 for a rental. Netflix says they are OK with it if they receive a 66% discount for waiting 30 days. Each has it's own business reasons for agreeing to a window, but the studios will have to work with each for it to make financial sense to them. If the studios tried to deny them access by pressuring retailers, then they would also have a legitimate anti-trust claim.

Some of you people need to get a grip on the real world.

Yes you do. What they are claiming is not that Walmart has decided to do it but that the studios have colluded to manipulate the market place. The studios have been on a slippery slope since the beginning of this and they seem bound and determined to get farther and farther out on that slope.

My guess is that retroactive immunity for market manipulation will become part of ACTA and this will go away. In the mean time how ever what they are claiming is against the law if proven.

What they are claiming is not that Walmart has decided to do it but that the studios have colluded to manipulate the market place.You have made a statement of fact, now you will need to back that up with proof!

The studios have been on a slippery slope since the beginning of this and they seem bound and determined to get farther and farther out on that slope.The courts have already dismissed most of the allegations against the studios.

The RB problem seems very simple to me, they do not want to pay the price some studios are asking for their product.

The RB problem seems very simple to me, they do not want to pay the price some studios are asking for their product.

That is incorrect.


Redbox WANTS to pay what the studios are asking. In fact, they are trying to purchase quite a large number of titles for what the studios are asking.

The studios do not like that Redbox has developed a business model that allows Redbox to make money off of those purchased discs, but that also devalues the content in the long term. Now the studios are looking to target Redbox and deny them from purchasing the content at RETAIL prices. Redbox is claiming that the studios are in collusion with each other and with retailers to make this happen. That is anti-competitive. If proven, the studios will have opened up a massive can of worms.

That is incorrect.


Redbox WANTS to pay what the studios are asking. In fact, they are trying to purchase quite a large number of titles for what the studios are asking.

The studios do not like that Redbox has developed a business model that allows Redbox to make money off of those purchased discs, but that also devalues the content in the long term. Now the studios are looking to target Redbox and deny them from purchasing the content at RETAIL prices. Redbox is claiming that the studios are in collusion with each other and with retailers to make this happen. That is anti-competitive. If proven, the studios will have opened up a massive can of worms.What a load of BS for a post. It has been made public that Red Box was negotiating with Fox and Warner. What we don’t know is the details of the negotiations. Some of the studios have made it clear they will sell direct to Red Box but they will impose a delay for new releases. Want to bet they would sell direct to Red Box on D&D for new releases if the price was right and they would destroy the copies after a period of time?

Some people are jumping to conclusions. If I were managing the media sales at one of the B&Ms I very well may impose a limit on quantities of certain merchandise. I may do this for fear the studios may raise the prices we pay or I may limit quantities to ensure the general public always has access to the titles they desire.

What a load of BS for a post. It has been made public that Red Box was negotiating with Fox and Warner. What we don’t know is the details of the negotiations. Some of the studios have made it clear they will sell direct to Red Box but they will impose a delay for new releases. Want to bet they would sell direct to Red Box on D&D for new releases if the price was right and they would destroy the copies after a period of time?

Some people are jumping to conclusions. If I were managing the media sales at one of the B&Ms I very well may impose a limit on quantities of certain merchandise. I may do this for fear the studios may raise the prices we pay or I may limit quantities to ensure the general public always has access to the titles they desire.

Load of BS?


Please tell me where I was wrong. Redbox wants to buy the studio content from wholesalers for fair wholesale prices. The studios stopped that. Redbox wanted to pay retail prices (what you or I would pay) for the content. The studios are trying to prevent that (possibly in violation of anti-trust law).

If the studios indeed coerced the retailers to prevent the retailers from selling to Redbox (at retail prices), then the lawsuit should proceed and discovery should happen. I would suspect if that was true then the studios would found to be in violation of anti-trust laws and be subject to government oversight.



And regarding serving the consumer.... the retailer could certainly stock appropriately if they knew that Redbox was going to walk-in and leave with 100 or 200 titles. The only reason they would not do that (from a business standpoint) is if the studios coerced them into not selling to a particular buyer.

Enough with the bickering. Topic closed.