Warner Takes Aim at Redbox, Netflix

Warner Home Video is drastically changing the way it sells DVDs and Blu-ray Discs to rental kiosks such as Redbox and by-mail services such as Netflix.

But industry sources say the most revolutionary aspect of the new policy is that it targets not just kiosks but also subscription rental services. They maintain that Netflix and other by-mail renters, too, will be subject to a 28-day window on new Warner DVD and Blu-ray Disc releases unless they strike revenue-sharing deals with the studio. Sources say Warner has no such agreements in place with Netflix.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/warner/update-warner-takes-aim-redbox-netflix-16749

sounds like a cool move by warner...

Why did Warner make it a bug when it could have been a feature?

Warner could have announced instead that they were reducing the sell-through disc release window on average by 28 days, but not the rental window.

If they made good on such a promise, home theater fans could watch the movie on their setups a month sooner, albeit by buying rather than renting.

SCD

Why did Warner make it a bug when it could have been a feature?

Warner could have announced instead that they were reducing the sell-through disc release window on average by 28 days, but not the rental window.

If they made good on such a promise, home theater fans could watch the movie on their setups a month sooner, albeit by buying rather than renting.

SCD

They have moved the home video window up so aggressively that there isn't much room, they would crowd the theatrical release window.

Theatrical release still brings in a lot of money and also establishes the value of the films.

On page 45 (http://sec.edgar-online.com/netflix-inc/s-1a-securities-registration-statement/2002/04/16/Section12.aspx)
"We have entered into revenue sharing arrangements with more than 50 studios and distributors. The arrangements cover six of the top eight studios, including Buena Vista Home Video, Columbia TriStar Home Entertainment, Dreamworks International Distribution, Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment, Universal Studios Home Video and Warner Home Video."

See also;


http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/analyst-redbox-will-sue-warner-bros-within-a-week-bigger-question-is-will-netflix-sue-warner-bros/


Analyst Predicts Redbox Will Sue Warner Bros Within A Week; "But Bigger Question Is Will Netflix Sue Warner Bros?"

"Given that Redbox has sued Universal (45 days) and Fox (30 days) over their windowing strategies, we would expect Redbox to sue Warner Bros (28 days) in short order, Greenfield predicts -- maybe as soon as next week. "While Sony, Lionsgate, Disney (and likely Paramount) appear to be happy working with Redbox directly or via distributors, we have a hard time understanding how a studio would not feel threatened by Redbox’s current business model, as it sets an ultra-low price point for movie content that will impact consumers’ decision-making process about all forms of movie-related commerce (theater-going, DVD purchase, Video-on-Demand, electronic/online rental/sell-thru, etc…)."

Dammit, RedBox is making movies affordable and convenient to consumers, something MUST be done to stop this!

Desperation move. Ultimately there is nothing any studio can do to keep Netflix, Redbox or any rentailer from obtaining and renting movies at whatever price they want.

Unless studios want to go back to "rental pricing" like they did back in the VHS days and absolutely obliterate the sell-through market that served them so well during the growth period of DVD.

This news did not seem to help NF stock this week even with the big buyback plans.
Coinstar got hammered...down $5...ouch.

This news did not seem to help NF stock this week even with the big buyback plans.
Coinstar got hammered...down $5...ouch.

Netflix was up $1 for the week, and is up slightly over the weekend in after hours trading. That is up more than 2% of what could have been a rough week (and despite analysts trying to downplay them).

You are right about Coinstar. They dropped 12% for the week!


Interestingly enough, Blockbuster also took a beating on Friday, and was down more than 5% for the week and are now trading at $.72 a share.

12% of $35 for Coinstar is tad more than 5% of $1 for BB. Interesting...yah, like paint drying

Netflix actually started the week at 44.88 and finished at 44.49. Check the batteries on that calculator.

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Warner has the insane dream of ruling the world; they make me ill....

Desperation move. Ultimately there is nothing any studio can do to keep Netflix, Redbox or any rentailer from obtaining and renting movies at whatever price they want.

Unless studios want to go back to "rental pricing" like they did back in the VHS days and absolutely obliterate the sell-through market that served them so well during the growth period of DVD.

This this model is an option and they can dictate rental prices, it may be their next move to control prices and disc prices as well.

This this model is an option and they can dictate rental prices, it may be their next move to control prices and disc prices as well.

Those days are over. All they are doing is digging themselves a hole to be buried in - those that are fighting Redbox.

Those days are over. All they are doing is digging themselves a hole to be buried in - those that are fighting Redbox.
Care to elaborate why?

Does anyone here remember when WB first tried the revenue-sharing model for rental video tapes in the early 1980's? They supplied specially-marked tapes to rental stores, and they got a cut of each transaction. The scheme didn't last long. In recent years, though, revenue-sharing seems to be the normal way the big rental chains work with the studios. If Redbox or another company wants to just buy discs and keep all the rental revenue, I don't know that any studio could stop them, and these delay schemes sound illegal to me-some variation of restraint of trade or unequal access. Is this ultimately any different at all from, say, a studio delaying releases of discs into poor neighborhoods or other locations?

Care to elaborate why?

It has already been explained.

Redbox and the other kiosk manufacturers have already publically stated that if they can't buy new releases from either wholesalers, or the studios themselves - they will buy them from retailers like BB or WM.

Nice to see a company(s) that care enough about their customers that they will not bow down to the money hungry, greedy Hollywood studios and are willing to do something about it - like haul their a$$ into court over anti-trust, misuse of copyright and restraint of trade.

Warner has the insane dream of ruling the world; they make me ill....

I don't know that Warner is in any different position than Universal and Fox.
RedBox have already sued Fox over this, Universal and Warner are expected to to be next.

Ineresting position for Blockbuster in all this. Are they playing a dangerouse game to try to save themselves?

The internet tech guys at TechCrunch have a take on this under the headline;
(read the whole article and the comments to see the reactions from people involved in digital delivery applications)

The Movie Studios Have A Great Idea To Ramp Up Piracy. And Blockbuster Wants To Help.
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/14/the-movie-studios-have-a-great-idea-to-ramp-up-piracy-and-blockbuster-wants-to-help/

Movie piracy is a problem, but it’s not as huge of a problem as music piracy was this past decade. While certainly the size of the movie files and the need for fast broadband connections to get them in a reasonable amount of time plays into it somewhat, also helping is the fact that there are some fairly decent ways to get movies quickly, for a pretty fair price these days. And now Hollywood is apparently trying to change that.

The studios are starting to rally around a horrible new idea: Keeping new releases out of Redbox and more importantly, Netflix for 30 days. Let me repeat that: They think Netflix shouldn’t be able to ship many new movies to you until 30 days after they’re released on DVD.

Now, this doesn’t appear to be set in stone yet for Netflix, as the studios are said to be currently negotiating this with the company, but it is what the studios want. And the strategy is going forward with Redbox, which recently filed a lawsuit against 20th Century Fox over the same issue. And now, with Universal and Warner Brothers getting on board, another lawsuit seems likely.

And in a move that couldn’t be less surprising, Blockbuster is on the wrong side of this. Despite the company having a strategy to do a massive roll-out of kiosks like the ones Redbox has, it is all in favor of the 30-day window, based on comments CEO Jim Keyes made during its Q2 earnings call.

Why? Well the company once again completely bombed in those earnings, posting a net loss of $36.9 million, while overall sales fell 22 percent in the quarter. It is getting fleeced by the likes of Redbox and Netflix and needs to gain some sort of competitive advantage in movie rentals. A 30-day rental window for its stores would certainly offer that.

Of course, as the name synonymous with movie rentals for the past couple of decades, Blockbuster could have used its power to get ahead of some of these trends (by-mail rentals, cheap kiosks, online rentals/streaming), but didn’t. So now they will have to rely on the movie studios attempting to put stricter rules in place for gaining access to its movies right away. Rules, that would seem to be basically prodding users to obtain those movies illegally.

^^^

Redbox has already sued Universal as Uni was the first studio that refused to sell Redbox new D/D releasaes. Then came Fox and this week we expect them to include WB.

I don't know that Warner is in any different position than Universal and Fox.
RedBox have already sued Fox over this, Universal and Warner are expected to to be next.


The internet tech guys at TechCrunch have a take on this under the headline;
(read the whole article and the comments to see the reactions from people involved in digital delivery applications)

"So now they will have to rely on the movie studios attempting to put stricter rules in place for gaining access to its movies right away. Rules, that would seem to be basically prodding users to obtain those movies illegally".

As if, perhaps by some miracle no doubt, those who currently illegally DL would descend to the kiosk to drop their $1 bills for the chance to redeem themselves and clear their minds of the wrongs they have done to the man.

"So now they will have to rely on the movie studios attempting to put stricter rules in place for gaining access to its movies right away. Rules, that would seem to be basically prodding users to obtain those movies illegally".

As if, perhaps by some miracle no doubt, those who currently illegally DL would descend to the kiosk to drop their $1 bills for the chance to redeem themselves and clear their minds of the wrongs they have done to the man.

Nah, They'll go down, rent the new movie for $1, rip it, encode it and post it on their favorite P2P site instead. They are already damn to hell anyway, where by the way I would prefer myself to go since all the interesting people, booze and drug is there anyway :p

No point of going to heaven and freeze my *** on a cloud playing harp for a bunch of stuck up people. Let's go down and party! :D

It has already been explained.

Redbox and the other kiosk manufacturers have already publically stated that if they can't buy new releases from either wholesalers, or the studios themselves - they will buy them from retailers like BB or WM.

Nice to see a company(s) that care enough about their customers that they will not bow down to the money hungry, greedy Hollywood studios and are willing to do something about it - like haul their a$$ into court over anti-trust, misuse of copyright and restraint of trade.
Redbox does not really care about their customers other than they provide revenue. They are a business, not a humanitarian service. :)
With the new imposed requirements by the studios, their profits would plummet, thus they lose revenue, then go out of business.

I agree that Hollywood studios are greedy but they do not force ANYONE to view or purchase their products. It's by freewill that consumers choose to view and purchase their products.

After all, the stuidos and their investors MUST INVEST a large amount of money in hopes of turning a profit on their investments.

It will be interesting though how this turns out since I haven't seen anyone post any ruling regarding the lawsuit against Fox and Uni.

Redbox does not really care about their customers other than they provide revenue. They are a business, not a humanitarian service. :)

They care enough not to do what the studios want and to take them to court.

With the new imposed requirements by the studios, their profits would plummet, thus they lose revenue, then go out of business.

The difference is the price paid to a wholesaler versus to a retailer. This will hardly cause them to go out of business. Just add some time to the ROI, that's all.

I agree that Hollywood studios are greedy but they do not force ANYONE to view or purchase their products. It's by freewill that consumers choose to view and purchase their products.

And consumers are gobbling up D/D DVD releases for a buck a night. Consumers have already proved they want it - and a few studios have proved they DON'T want it. Of course a few studios have said they will support it.

After all, the stuidos and their investors MUST INVEST a large amount of money in hopes of turning a profit on their investments.

LOL . . . the cost of making movies for the most part is totally out of control. The fact that they sink 10's and 100's of millions of dollars into a movie does not mean they should have some guarantee of getting it back and then some. Movies are still entertainment and entertainment can be judged subjectively

It will be interesting though how this turns out since I haven't seen anyone post any ruling regarding the lawsuit against Fox and Uni.

Neither has actually gone to trial

They care enough not to do what the studios want and to take them to court.



The difference is the price paid to a wholesaler versus to a retailer. This will hardly cause them to go out of business. Just add some time to the ROI, that's all.



And consumers are gobbling up D/D DVD releases for a buck a night. Consumers have already proved they want it - and a few studios have proved they DON'T want it. Of course a few studios have said they will support it.



LOL . . . the cost of making movies for the most part is totally out of control. The fact that they sink 10's and 100's of millions of dollars into a movie does not mean they should have some guarantee of getting it back and then some. Movies are still entertainment and entertainment can be judged subjectively



Neither has actually gone to trial

1) Out of a desire for self preservation. Coinstar stock dropped 12% last week with this problem brewing.
2) Oh well. With lower costs than the video store they are well suited to weather this problem.
3) So who wouldn't want a $5 value for a buck? A few studios negotiated their own deal w/ RB involving the exchange of green for peace.
4) Says you. Why be in business if you can't make a profit.
5) And may never go to trial.

1) Out of a desire for self preservation. Coinstar stock dropped 12% last week with this problem brewing.

Think their stock won't recover? How about netflix? And how has WB's stock price fared?

2) Oh well. With lower costs than the video store they are well suited to weather this problem.

:)

3) So who wouldn't want a $5 value for a buck? A few studios negotiated their own deal w/ RB involving the exchange of green for peace.

Oh - so Sony and Lions Gate don't want to make money with Redbox? Just extend an olive branch? :rolleyes:

4) Says you. Why be in business if you can't make a profit.

See - that's the thing about business . . . there is risk involved - especially in the business of making movies.

5) And may never go to trial.

Time will tell. Do you see the 3 studios backing down because I don't see redbox backing down.

I don't know that Warner is in any different position than Universal and Fox.This topic is just one of the reasons; I won't go into the others....for now.

why they just don`t make a deal they will suit both sides? they are just greedy. as lee Stewart says, the cost of movies is totally out of control, they spend way too much money into movies which are mostly bad and they can`t get that money back from theaters. now they are using this pitiful strategy to recoup costs. they are lame and despicable.

There's an interview with Redbox's president posted here (http://www.foxbusiness.com/search-results/m/25934446/redbox-sues-20th-century-fox.htm#q=redbox), at the Fox Business website. But, you'll have to sit through a commercial.

Scott

I think this is a good idea on their part. I think that having a staged multitier pricing structure sounds like a good move for them. IMO they need 4 levels for their releases.

1. Premium buyers of the product should get it first (Blu-ray)
2. DVD buyers get it 7 days later
3. Premium content providers (VUDU/BB/Netflix) 7 days after DVD
4. Bottom tier get it last, but at a barging price (Red box, Netflix streaming after 30 days)

Don’t forget even people that purchase the movie on BD does NOT own it, only the rights to private viewings. It could be argued that rental services violate this agreement.

Botton line, does having to wait 30 days hurt the people that want to rent at the best possible price? I don't think so

I think this is a good idea on their part. I think that having a staged multitier pricing structure sounds like a good move for them. IMO they need 4 levels for their releases.

1. Premium buyers of the product should get it first (Blu-ray)
2. DVD buyers get it 7 days later
3. Premium content providers (VUDU/BB/Netflix) 7 days after DVD
4. Bottom tier get it last, but at a barging price (Red box, Netflix streaming after 30 days)

Don’t forget even people that purchase the movie on BD does NOT own it, only the rights to private viewings. It could be argued that rental services violate this agreement.

Botton line, does having to wait 30 days hurt the people that want to rent at the best possible price? I don't think so

Problem is that it will not be for all studios. So far it looks like 3 and 3:

For the delay:

WB
Fox
Universal

No delay:

Sony
Lions Gate
Disney

So where will Dreamworks and Paramount side?

Redbox antitrust suit against Universal upheld

Judge throws out two of three claims but denies studio's dismissal motion

By Danny King -- Video Business, 8/18/2009
AUG. 18 | PHYSICAL: Redbox's lawsuit against Universal Studios Home Entertainment was upheld by a U.S. District Court judge less than a week after the U.S. movie-rental kiosk leader filed a similar suit against 20th Century Fox over DVD distribution terms.

Robert Kugler, a U.S. District Court judge for Delaware, granted the dismissal of two of the three counts against Universal in the 10-month-old lawsuit but denied Universal's motion to dismiss the antitrust claim altogether, according to court records.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6677199.html?desc=topstory

Here is a video interview with Mitch Lowe - President of Redbox:

http://video.foxbusiness.com/8308010/redbox-sues-20th-century-fox/?category_id=1292d14d0e3afdcf0b31500afefb92724c08f046

why they just don`t make a deal they will suit both sides? they are just greedy. as lee Stewart says, the cost of movies is totally out of control, they spend way too much money into movies which are mostly bad and they can`t get that money back from theaters. now they are using this pitiful strategy to recoup costs. they are lame and despicable.

I find it humorous that some believe that a business that invests millions of dollars that are trying to capitalize on their investments are being greedy because it doesn't benefit the "frugal" consumer. If someone wants to be frugal, they can wait like they do on everything else like the iPhone, HDTV, blu-ray, etc and purchase/consume when prices come down, as they will with the proposed delayed availability for Redbox rentals.

As I said before, NO ONE is FORCED to watch/purchase a movie at a particular price point and if someone feels the price is too much to buy or rent, then they can opt to not do either and wait until the price is within their range.

Watching a movie is not a necessity but a luxury that one must choose to pay the price when it hits the shelves or wait until the price is within their price point.

It seems that some portions of our society believes the public is entitled to specific price points(or free) on luxury items and should be at the cheapest price points.

I hope that people don't beleive that Redbox is the defender of public rights to cheap rentals as they are a business and see this move by the studios as an attack on their revenue and nothing more.

This this model is an option and they can dictate rental prices, it may be their next move to control prices and disc prices as well.

And kill the sell-through DVD model that is the bulk of their home entertainment dollars? ROFL!

Redbox does not really care about their customers other than they provide revenue. They are a business, not a humanitarian service. :)
With the new imposed requirements by the studios, their profits would plummet, thus they lose revenue, then go out of business.

Analysts who understand the kiosk business have already analyzed this and it is clear that Redbox would not go out of business if they had to acquire their material from retail. Their margins would go down, but they would be profitable and continue to grow.

The studios would be hurt more in the long run as Redbox has an even greater incentive to dump the material ASAP on the used market to maximize their revenue on used material.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Redbox has changed the game for physical media. Due to First Sale Doctrine and the efficiencies of Redbox, there is no realistic step the studios could take to stop their growth or their impact on the pricing of physical media. The best they can do is make a "deal with the devil" to try and limit the amount of used media getting dumped on the market.

I find it humorous that some believe that a business that invests millions of dollars that are trying to capitalize on their investments are being greedy because it doesn't benefit the "frugal" consumer. If someone wants to be frugal, they can wait like they do on everything else like the iPhone, HDTV, blu-ray, etc and purchase/consume when prices come down, as they will with the proposed delayed availability for Redbox rentals.

As I said before, NO ONE is FORCED to watch/purchase a movie at a particular price point and if someone feels the price is too much to buy or rent, then they can opt to not do either and wait until the price is within their range.

Watching a movie is not a necessity but a luxury that one must choose to pay the price when it hits the shelves or wait until the price is within their price point.

It seems that some portions of our society believes the public is entitled to specific price points(or free) on luxury items and should be at the cheapest price points.

I hope that people don't beleive that Redbox is the defender of public rights to cheap rentals as they are a business and see this move by the studios as an attack on their revenue and nothing more.

No - they have created a business based on a concept. That consumers can pay what Redbox deems is a fair price to view a movie for an evening/day based on passing the savings from their inexpensive cost of doing business, right to the consumer.

Keep in mind that no one can make blanket statements because the studios are divided on this issue. Some are for it and some are against it.;)

Analysts who understand the kiosk business have already analyzed this and it is clear that Redbox would not go out of business if they had to acquire their material from retail. Their margins would go down, but they would be profitable and continue to grow.

The studios would be hurt more in the long run as Redbox has an even greater incentive to dump the material ASAP on the used market to maximize their revenue on used material.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Redbox has changed the game for physical media. Due to First Sale Doctrine and the efficiencies of Redbox, there is no realistic step the studios could take to stop their growth or their impact on the pricing of physical media. The best they can do is make a "deal with the devil" to try and limit the amount of used media getting dumped on the market.
But if Netflix, Blockbuster and Redbox (or any rental outlet) get their new releases a month later than when it hits retail for sale, then yes, it will hurt their margins significantly as it's old news in 30 days after a new release and most would have already seen the movie by some other means other than streaming since that would be part of the delayed release as well.

I just wouldn't put it past the studios to try something to attempt getting more control/money out of their investments.

I mean, this quote says it all.

a restriction sources say will apply to Netflix and other subscription services as well, unless they agree to share rental revenue with the studio.

But if Netflix, Blockbuster and Redbox (or any rental outlet) get their new releases a month later than when it hits retail for sale, then yes, it will hurt their margins significantly as it's old news in 30 days after a new release and most would have already seen the movie by some other means other than streaming since that would be part of the delayed release as well.

I just wouldn't put it past the studios to try something to attempt getting more control/money out of their investments.

I mean, this quote says it all.

Once it hits retail, kiosks and Netflix have access and rights to rent it.


There will be no 30-day delay in availability.


There will be an increase in the number of used titles hitting the market at $7 (or less) a few weeks after street release if the studios push this plan of action.

A very basic primer on First Sale Doctrine.

Tons of more detailed info available on the web:

(snip)consequently buyers of retail DVDs in the United States are free to sell or exchange them, and rent and lend them to others.

This right was underlined by the US courts in the case of NEBG v Weinstein[4], in which a film-industry defendant accepted that it had no right to restrict buyers of DVDs from renting them to third parties.

Copyright owners sometimes affix warning notices to packaged DVDs, or display notices on screen before showing the content, which purport to list uses of the DVD that are forbidden under copyright law. Such notices do not always fairly reflect the buyer's legal rights established by the first-sale doctrine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine#Application_to_DVDs_and_NEBG_v_Weinstein

There will be an increase in the number of used titles hitting the market at $7 (or less) a few weeks after street release if the studios push this plan of action.


Is this just your speculation or do you have a market trend to back up these figures because even Blockbuster and Hollywood Videos charge more than $7 until about 3 months after release.

Care to elaborate on this claim/right to allowing renting a disc when it hits retail.


Are you saying the studio can not stop services from renting their products until 30 days are up?
I ask because a retail disc sold is for private viewing only and not for distibution(rental) for private viewing.

Look up First Sale Doctrine. There is a reason why some studios have made deals with Redbox. It is because making a deal with the devil was preferable to the alternative (having Redbox sell all their discs a few weeks after release).




Is this just your speculation or do you have a market trend to back up these figures because even Blockbuster and Hollywood Videos charge more than $7 until about 3 months after release.

Read Redbox's own financial statements. They even state that their own practices are hurting them because they are putting so much pricing pressure on used discs.

Some easier to find info on how much Redbox charges consumers to buy used discs.

The company's typical self-service vending kiosk combines an interactive touch screen and sign, a robotic disk array system[3] and web-linked electronic communications. Kiosks hold more than 600 DVDs with 70-200 titles, updated weekly.[3] DVDs can be returned the next day to any of the company's kiosks; charges accrue up to 25 days, after which the customer then owns the DVD (without the original case) and pays $25.00 plus tax. Customers can also reserve DVDs online, made possible by real-time inventory updates on the company's website.[4] Customers can buy used dvds from the kiosks for $7 — with unsold used dvds returned to their suppliers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redbox

And a bit more info so people at least have a base of knowledge for the discussion:

“A war is clearly brewing,” Greenfield wrote in a note. “We believe Redbox’s current business model poses a substantial risk to the future of the movie industry, as it sets an ultra-low price point for movie content that will impact consumers’ decision-making process about all forms of movie-related commerce (theater-going, DVD purchase, video-on-demand, electronic/online rental and sellthrough).”

The analyst said he believes the litigation will expedite resolution of the Universal case.

Greenfield said that should Redbox lose in court, it could still survive at margins below current 16% EBITDA when stocking kiosks with DVDs bought at retail.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/kiosk/analyst-war-between-studios-redbox-could-alter-future-movie-industry-16723

Walt Disney Co. Chief Executive Bob Iger told analysts last week that limiting the number of used discs that end up on discount sales bins was key to a deal it struck with kiosks including Redbox several years ago.

Paramount Pictures parent Viacom Inc. is in talks with Redbox and other kiosk companies "in how we can together improve and move forward," CEO Philippe Dauman said last week.

Jeffrey Bewkes, CEO of Warner Bros. parent Time Warner Inc., said he would "probably" prefer having some delay, or time "window," between the sales date and when Redbox rents discs for $1. But he didn't view kiosks as a killer of the studio's business.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-bz.redbox08aug08,0,2889331.story

That story is dated August 8th - before WB made their "pitch."

The more RBs on the street, the more discs have to be manufactured, the higher physical media sales go, the more shiny discs go into homes as used, the further DLs as a method of getting content is pushed into the future.:D
The studios and RB/NF will work it out... i'm sure.

The more RBs on the street, the more discs have to be manufactured, the higher physical media sales go, the more shiny discs go into homes as used, the further DLs as a method of getting content is pushed into the future.:D
The studios and RB/NF will work it out... i'm sure.

The amount of discs sold goes DOWN as less are needed with the kiosk model. Remember that kiosks are cannibalizing the B&M market. Coinstar (Redbox) themselves acknowledge that physical media as a whole is contracting, but their growth curve exists as they take market share from Blockbuster (less than 5% of their growth comes from Netflix).

The ARPU for studios drops significantly with kiosks. First in the rental channel where Redbox's efficiencies means that consumers get to see hot new content for $1, of which the studio sees a VERY low average (I believe that even the retail stores where the kiosks sit seeing more revenue than the studios).

Then it hits them on the sell-through end since consumers have access to the same "hot title" for $7 as soon as a few weeks after release. All while having to deal with all the mastering and manufacturing costs associated with making shiny discs. Basically, studios are eating significant costs while seeing very little revenue per user while Redbox makes a nice, steady and growing income stream while doing very little beyond expanding. OUCH for the studios!!

As just about every analyst has stated, this is not a business model that supports studio growth.

I see you deleted this statement:

Care to elaborate on this claim/right to allowing renting a disc when it hits retail.


Are you saying the studio can not stop services from renting their products until 30 days are up?
I ask because a retail disc sold is for private viewing only and not for distibution(rental) for private viewing.

I guess someone tapped you on the shoulder to remind you about "First Sale Doctrine" after making those statements.

The more RBs on the street, the more discs have to be manufactured, the higher physical media sales go, the more shiny discs go into homes as used, the further DLs as a method of getting content is pushed into the future.:D
The studios and RB/NF will work it out... i'm sure.

In exchange for its product agreements with Lionsgate and Sony, Redbox agreed not to resell old DVDs on the used-disc market -- a practice that's riled studio execs even more than the company's ultra-low rental price. Studio home entertainment execs complain that dollar rentals are starting to reduce consumers' enthusiasm for purchasing DVDs

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3idee9d1f93a71c575bfda13bb495a8d08

I see you deleted this statement:



I guess someone tapped you on the shoulder to remind you about "First Sale Doctrine" after making those statements.
I see you are bored and had to increase your post count. ROTFL :p

Analysts Leery of Warner’s Stance on Netflix

Warner Home Video’s aggressive stance toward $1-per-day movie rental kiosks has some analysts more concerned about the negative fallout for online DVD rental pioneer Netflix.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/netflix/analysts-leery-warners-stance-netflix-16768

Analysts Leery of Warner’s Stance on Netflix



http://www.homemediamagazine.com/netflix/analysts-leery-warners-stance-netflix-16768

Same story:

Edward Woo, analyst with Wedbush Morgan Securities in Los Angeles, believes Netflix will come to terms with the studios since its business model does not include kiosks.

“I think Warner’s aggressive stance is not good, but in the end I think terms for by-mail DVD rental will be largely unchanged,” Woo said.

I see you are bored and had to increase your post count. ROTFL :p

Not really. Just glad you realized your mistake. Granted it would probably be far too much to ask for you to admit it.

Not really. Just glad you realized your mistake. Granted it would probably be far too much to ask for you to admit it.
As usual, you attack the poster and not the post.

Anyway, it appears that Netflix and Redbox will be handing over some more money to the studios, which in the end is a net loss on their part. So, the studio gets what they wanted, more money without doing anything but making a statement. I'm sure this move is more important to Netflix if they want to keep a good relationship with the studios and keep their streaming business alive.

As usual, you attack the poster and not the post.

Anyway, it appears that Netflix and Redbox will be handing over some more money to the studios, which in the end is a net loss on their part. So, the studio gets what they wanted, more money without doing anything but making a statement. I'm sure this move is more important to Netflix if they want to keep a good relationship with the studios and keep their streaming business alive.

Have the anti-trust suits been decided yet? :rolleyes:

As usual, you attack the poster and not the post.

I am so glad your previous post had such useful information and had everything to do with providing counter-information and respectful discourse. Perhaps one day I can post what you did without there being any hint of hypocrisy. :cool:

Either way, I am glad you realized you were wrong and deleted the statement instead of trying to argue about it for 5 pages.

Anyway, it appears that Netflix and Redbox will be handing over some more money to the studios, which in the end is a net loss on their part. So, the studio gets what they wanted, more money without doing anything but making a statement. I'm sure this move is more important to Netflix if they want to keep a good relationship with the studios and keep their streaming business alive.

It will also be a net loss to the studios if it means more used discs getting dumped on the market. That is the worst kind of business... where you start taking things personally and cut off your nose to spite your face.

Sooner or later the studios are going to realize that there is nothing they can do (outside of anti-trust actions), to boost the prices of physical media back to where they were. The companies renting their product have become so efficient that they can offer their content for dirt cheap prices, and still turn a healthy profit purely by using one shiny disc to serve a large number of consumers. That is great for consumers, wonderful for kiosk operators and a nightmare for studios.

And Warner Makes Three

Redbox Automated Retail LLC is going to court a third time, this time filing suit against Warner Home Video over the studio's intention to delay distribution of new DVD releases to Redbox's fleet of 15,000 video rental kiosks by 28 days.

Lowe also said Redbox will continue to carry Warner DVDs, buying them through alternative channels, if necessary, should Warner proceed with its plans to withhold shipments come October.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/kiosk/and-warner-makes-three-16777

Are the download contracts separate? Apple would love for DVD rentals to go away, and while it would hurt Netflix, they have that other side of the business that will keep them afloat.

I am guessing that Time Warner cable/PPV has a lot to gain also.

Are the download contracts separate? Apple would love for DVD rentals to go away, and while it would hurt Netflix, they have that other side of the business that will keep them afloat.

I am guessing that Time Warner cable and PPV has a lot to gain also.

The download/streaming contracts are separate. And due to the nature of streams and downloads, the issue of people or companies being able to "rent" the content without studio permission does not exist.

I think that Redbox is great since it is going to provide strong financial incentive for the studios to lower the pricing of streaming/VOD offerings. With physical media and kiosks, they do not see much of the revenue on an average user basis. They could offer similar pricing via VOD/streaming (or subscription) via revenue sharing contracts that would allow them to obtain a more favorable ARPU.

All of this points to content in many forms (including physical media) at prices that are very consumer friendly.

I see you are bored and had to increase your post count. ROTFL :p
As usual, you attack the poster and not the post.

No quite, but close to...
Irony (from the Ancient Greek ερωνεία eirōneía, meaning hypocrisy, deception, or feigned ignorance) is a literary or rhetorical device, in which there is an incongruity or discordance between what one says or does and what one means or what is generally understood.

More like, "Do as I say, not as I do".

OK, back to the topic...:D

The companies renting their product have become so efficient that they can offer their content for dirt cheap prices, and still turn a healthy profit purely by using one shiny disc to serve a large number of consumers. That is great for consumers, wonderful for kiosk operators and a nightmare for studios.
But that's because they currently get special pricing for the discs.
If they have to pay retail, then that's lowers their margin on profits.

No quite, but close to...
Irony (from the Ancient Greek ερωνεία eirōneía, meaning hypocrisy, deception, or feigned ignorance) is a literary or rhetorical device, in which there is an incongruity or discordance between what one says or does and what one means or what is generally understood.

More like, "Do as I say, not as I do".

OK, back to the topic...:D
Bored ?

But that's because they currently get special pricing for the discs.
If they have to pay retail, then that's lowers their margin on profits.

Yes, but it does not stop them from growing and still posting a healthy profit.

And the flip-side is they have greater motivation to make back their extra costs by dumping the discs on the used market. That ultimately is a big negative for the studios.

Consumers are not dumb and will quickly realize that waiting a few weeks and being able to pick-up hot titles for $7 is a great deal. Of course there are the people who must buy it on release day for $15-$20, but if even 15% decide to wait for the $7 used copy it will be disastrous to studio earnings.


Again... There is nothing the studios can realistically do to stop Redbox (kiosks) from growing and devaluing the content.

Yes, but it does not stop them from growing and still posting a healthy profit.

And the flip-side is they have greater motivation to make back their extra costs by dumping the discs on the used market. That ultimately is a big negative for the studios.

Consumers are not dumb and will quickly realize that waiting a few weeks and being able to pick-up hot titles for $7 is a great deal. Of course there are the people who must buy it on release day for $15-$20, but if even 15% decide to wait for the $7 used copy it will be disastrous to studio earnings.


Again... There is nothing the studios can realistically do to stop Redbox (kiosks) from growing and devaluing the content.
Does Netflix and Redbox guarantee their used disks for life?

I know Hollywood Videos and BlockBuster allow exchange of any used disk purchased as long as you have the receipt.
Buying a used disk is a gamble if there is no provision for exchange.
And who wants to pay for shipping to return a disk?

Also, I haven't seen any used new releases of blu-ray sold for $7 anywhere.
Cheapest I've found is BB at 2for$25 or 1for$14.99 for new releases.

Does Netflix and Redbox guarantee their used disks for life?

I know Hollywood Videos and BlockBuster allow exchange of any used disk purchased as long as you have the receipt.
Buying a used disk is a gamble if there is no provision for exchange.
And who wants to pay for shipping to return a disk?

Irrelevant. Individual consumers may opt not to purchased used discs for a variety of reasons, but the trend is strong enough to be a major concern for the studios. Even Sony specifically cited the main reason for the agreement with Redbox was to prevent them from putting many used discs on the market.

Also, I haven't seen any used new releases of blu-ray sold for $7 anywhere.
Cheapest I've found is BB at 2for$25 or 1for$14.99 for new releases.

Redbox has not rolled out Blu-ray on a large scale basis. Remember that their growth is consumer driven so they are going to always move forward with that in mind.

Once they do roll out on a larger scale, I fully expect them to offer used Blu-ray discs at a comparable discount to DVDs. Even at $12 it would be a significant discount a few weeks after release. I am guessing there are more than a few people here who would be happy to build their Blu-ray library for $12 a title.

Bored ?

Nope, increasing my post count. I've got Lee in my sights.:D

Well, the verdict is in, and it's not quite what everyone expected. Given our legal system's history of siding with intellectual property owners, studio executives were hoping a federal judge would quickly dismiss an antitrust lawsuit filed by Redbox against Universal Studios Home Entertainment over the studio's decision to impose a 45-day window on new releases. Similar windows subsequently have been imposed by 20th Century Fox (30 days) and Warner Bros. (28 days), and Redbox has already filed a similiar suit against Fox, with a third action likely against Warner. The Universal suit hasn't seen any action since last March, but today's ruling--and you can read the full story by clicking here--came as something of a surprise, since studio executives have privately said they believe a ruling in Universal's favor was imminent. Not that this is a defeat for Hollywood's attempts to maintain control over its own product, since the actual suit has yet to be heard, but it's certainly a setback.

Here's the press release that just came in from Redbox, which also directs reporters to a new site the kiosk company has launched in an attempt to get the public all riled up over the studios' attempts to crack down on dollar rentals. Studios believe the low price and ready availability of video-rental kiosks in such places as Wal-Mart stores is cannibalizing the sales business, while Redbox chief Mitch Lowe--a former independent retailer and Netflix pioneer--argues that his company is merely giving consumer what they want in these trying economic times.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/tks-take/redbox-ruling-not-what-most-expected

Nope, increasing my post count. I've got Lee in my sights.:D

What are you using? A telescope? :p

One more time *sigh* . . .

Redbox in the past several weeks has signed fiive-year direct distribution agreements with Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, worth an estimated $460 million, and Lionsgate, worth an estimated $158 million. Both studio deals, and one with Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment, limit the sale of the studios’ titles as used product.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6678588.html?desc=topstory

The Sony deal does NOT included BD. ONLY DVD.

What are you using? A telescope? :p

Drat! I just lost more ground.
Now I won't catch up until we are talking about super HD brain implants in this forum.:D

The local Hollywood Video has been selling used DVDs for many years. They do not sell used Blu-ray disc. I do not know if this store is corporate or franchised. I do not know if the local Blockbuster sells DVDs, I do know they are a franchised outlet.

I would be really interested to see how this would play out in front of the DOJ / FTC. There are two separate issues that are colliding: 1) is competition -- the DOJ tends to favor decisions that lower the overall cost to the consumer, so in that regard, they'd tend to favor RedBox, and 2) retail pricing strategy -- I'm less well versed here, but most of what I've seen tends to support the manufacturer of the product as long as they adjudicate their policies transparently and consistently.

Would very much like to see how this gets played out.

I tend to agree that RedBox is likely to "find a way" to survive, and in so doing, their coping mechanisms (dumping discs early to re-coup capital) would tend to hurt WB more than the current pain (of low cost rentals).

There's really no "fair" or altruistic behavior on either side here. This is business -- and everyone is fighting and clawing for their piece of the pie, like good capitalists. I may not like what that means for me as a consumer, and I might be rooting for "the little guy" or the underdog, but in the end there's only what's legal and what's enforceable . . . WB has the upper hand at the moment, because they own the physical good, but RedBox might get some legal relief . . . but even that might be difficult to enforce.

EDIT: I'd like to add that in my observation, that companies that tend to fight to "protect" their revenue stream via control, tend to do so because their business models are either not well thought through, they are "weak" in an area they need to improve in, or they're over-priced (i.e., market players who seek to drive down pricing to increase volumes are seen as eroding "excess economic rents").

Lawyer in Earlier Antitrust Case Against the Studios Recalls a Lost Battle

As for studio executives, he said they “think the rules don’t apply to them.”

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/legal-news/lawyer-earlier-antitrust-case-against-studios-recalls-a-lost-battle-16808

RB will need more than "good luck" to win this case.:D

More analysis on the Redbox impact...

With every action by the studios, Redbox gets more press, most of it good from a consumer standpoint. Picture president Mitch Lowe as a sort of “Captain Consumer” superhero, defending Americans’ right to rent new movies for $1. (Now, if he could just come up with a model for healthcare...)

There’s no question that Redbox is in the right place at the right time, the perfect consumer entertainment model for the worst recession in decades. $1 per night is a nifty marketing message, a great banner for Captain Consumer to carry, even though the average Redbox transaction is actually a little more than $2. (Times apparently aren’t hard enough for most Redboxers to rent and return the next day.)

The studios currently doing business with Redbox recognize this.

Redbox’s long-term prospects, however, are less clear and will be affected by a number of variables, just starting with whether or not the Universal, Fox and Warner Bros. studios prevail in their efforts to create a kiosk window. Among them:

• The vending window. One of the biggest questions surrounding Redbox is whether a window would kills its business. I think not, tending to believe that there are consumers who will wait a month for a movie in order to get it cheaper. But this would certainly require Redbox to revise its growth plan.

• Walmart and other retailers. I’m not privy to Redbox’s contracts with retailers, but analysts report that they are not long-term. Walmart is all about driving foot traffic, and if it believes Redbox is not doing this, either because there are too many Redbox locations more convenient to customers, or because of a window-related delay, Redbox will lose some of its prime real estate. This also will happen if the studios convince Walmart that it is losing DVD sales because of the kiosks and these losses outweigh other benefits of the foot traffic.

• Growth of Blu-ray and VOD. When consumers adopt Blu-ray in greater numbers, Redbox will also have to change its product mix. Higher-priced Blu-ray discs will change Redbox’s economic model.

Some studios like to counter the idea that Redbox offers the best consumer proposition in terms of convenience and value with the argument that, in fact, VOD is the best delivery platform on those accounts. For $3 to $4 instead of $2, consumers don’t even have to leave the couch.

http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1120000312/post/1350048135.html

Since they don't carry BD or any hd media, why do we care about them here?

Since they don't carry BD or any hd media, why do we care about them here?

Redbox has been experimenting with BD is some areas. And whatever effects DVD will most probably affect BD when it comes to the studios.

why they just don`t make a deal they will suit both sides? they are just greedy. as lee Stewart says, the cost of movies is totally out of control, they spend way too much money into movies which are mostly bad and they can`t get that money back from theaters. now they are using this pitiful strategy to recoup costs. they are lame and despicable.

Yet there are still some people here who side with the studios over the consumer. Go figure!

Some studios like to counter the idea that Redbox offers the best consumer proposition in terms of convenience and value with the argument that, in fact, VOD is the best delivery platform on those accounts. For $3 to $4 instead of $2, consumers don’t even have to leave the couch.

So far, we haven't seen much downward pressure on VOD pricing from the introduction of Redbox. Any guesses as to when VOD starts to drift down to $1-3 instead of $4-6?

Yet there are still some people here who side with the studios over the consumer. Go figure!
Many things start out looking good for the consumer but turn out to be bad for everyone and everything in its path... exhibit 1: starts with a W, ends with a mart.

Nobody is against virtue and all that, but I don't know if that is such a good idea to restrict the revenue of those who produce the product your company is dependent on.

If somebody turn off the tap too much then this will have an impact on content production in the end and with less content to distribute there will be less money for Rb and others too. Unless you are perfectly ok to watch the same content over and over.

Nobody is against virtue and all that, but I don't know if that is such a good idea to restrict the revenue of those who produce the product your company is dependent on.

If somebody turn off the tap too much then this will have an impact on content production in the end and with less content to distribute there will be less money for Rb and others too. Unless you are perfectly ok to watch the same content over and over.

But isn't that what sold video discs is all about? Watching the same content over and over?;)

Let's assume for a moment that Redbox needs to buy 10 copies of each movie that is in the box. They now have 15,000 boxes installed.

That means they will buy 150,000 copies of a film. At $12 a copy - that comes out to $1.8M in revenue PER TITLE. Now multiple that times 70. We are talking big bucks for the studios.

But to some - it isn't enough. :(

And should we discuss the current enonomic climate? It is easy to see why rentals are increasing and sales are decreasing.

But isn't that what sold video discs is all about? Watching the same content over and over?;)

Let's assume for a moment that Redbox needs to buy 10 copies of each movie that is in the box. They now have 15,000 boxes installed.

That means they will buy 150,000 copies of a film. At $12 a copy - that comes out to $1.8M in revenue PER TITLE. Now multiple that times 70. We are talking big bucks for the studios.

But to some - it isn't enough. :(

And should we discuss the current enonomic climate? It is easy to see why rentals are increasing and sales are decreasing.

Lee, how dare you try using common sense in this forum! I'm sure we are talking about share holders of some sort or another. I can't seem to come to any other conclusion.

So far, we haven't seen much downward pressure on VOD pricing from the introduction of Redbox. Any guesses as to when VOD starts to drift down to $1-3 instead of $4-6?

Here ya go...


Just as DVD retailers get more aggressive in cutting prices on discs, Apple iTunes and Amazon Video On Demand are getting fierce in promoting and slashing prices on digital movie and TV downloads.

Both sites have begun running near regular promotions selling catalog films for less than $5 and renting back-catalog movies for as little as 99¢, well below digital competitors.

Amazon, meanwhile, is now pricing new releases on par with iTunes at $14.99, below the site’s previous new releases tag of $17 and often below the price the site sells those same movies for on DVD and Blu-ray Disc.

Amazon and iTunes have been particularly aggressive with catalog title promotions. ITunes is now offering a “Back to School” promotion, with movies School of Rock, Clueless, Good Will Hunting and others available as a download for $4.99.

ITunes has a continual promotion running with a category of “Films under $5 and $6,” including such catalog films as Rosemary’s Baby ($5.99), Meet Bill ($4.99) and Made ($3.99).

Amazon VOD has its own category of “Movies for $5.99,” which includes Terminator 2: Judgment Day ($4.99) and Troy ($5.49).

But some of the best deals are on TV series, an area in which both sites also face online competition from ad-supported video sites Hulu, TV.com and others. Amazon is selling full-season downloads for as little as $5, the price for NBC hit series 30 Rock: Season 1.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6685334.html

But isn't that what sold video discs is all about? Watching the same content over and over?;)

Let's assume for a moment that Redbox needs to buy 10 copies of each movie that is in the box. They now have 15,000 boxes installed.

That means they will buy 150,000 copies of a film. At $12 a copy - that comes out to $1.8M in revenue PER TITLE. Now multiple that times 70. We are talking big bucks for the studios.

But to some - it isn't enough. :(

And should we discuss the current enonomic climate? It is easy to see why rentals are increasing and sales are decreasing.

But the problem isn't with the $12 copy that they sell to RB. The problem is with the $5 used disk that they sell afterward that undercut the studio. The studio don't make one cent on the used disk.

If those disk were destroyed instead then those who want to own them, legally that is, would have to buy them at 12$. I know this would be a ****** deal for those who buy used but hey, if that means we who buy new can still get our media fix I'm for it. Those who can't aford them at 12$ can always rent them at 1$ but the elimination of the after market would make the studio happy.

But the problem isn't with the $12 copy that they sell to RB. The problem is with the $5 used disk that they sell afterward that undercut the studio. The studio don't make one cent on the used disk.

If those disk were destroyed instead then those who want to own them, legally that is, would have to buy them at 12$. I know this would be a ****** deal for those who buy used but hey, if that means we who buy new can still get our media fix I'm for it. Those who can't aford them at 12$ can always rent them at 1$ but the elimination of the after market would make the studio happy.

And that is what RB is agreeing to . . .

Redbox in the past several weeks has signed fiive-year direct distribution agreements with Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, worth an estimated $460 million, and Lionsgate, worth an estimated $158 million. Both studio deals, and one with Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment, limit the sale of the studios’ titles as used product.

Here ya go...

I'm actually more interested in VOD through the cable providers which I'd suspect is a much larger business than iTunes/Amazon. Looking at my FiOS VOD service, I don't see the same falling prices there that the article describes for the streaming services.

But the problem isn't with the $12 copy that they sell to RB. The problem is with the $5 used disk that they sell afterward that undercut the studio. The studio don't make one cent on the used disk.

Book publishers don't make any money on used books, and the recording companies don't make money on used CDs either. So what? Those are the rules of the game, rules which all these companies have worked under for decades. I'll start worrying about the studios' failure to earn additional revenues in the used DVD market when they stop paying millions of dollars to "talent." There once was a time when the studios were content to live on the money they made from theatrical release and television. I recall quite a few excellent movies from those years, don't you? I wonder how they managed that.

I hope RB floods the market with used $4 Warner Blu-Rays.

I'm actually more interested in VOD through the cable providers which I'd suspect is a much larger business than iTunes/Amazon. Looking at my FiOS VOD service, I don't see the same falling prices there that the article describes for the streaming services.



Book publishers don't make any money on used books, and the recording companies don't make money on used CDs either. So what? Those are the rules of the game, rules which all these companies have worked under for decades. I'll start worrying about the studios' failure to earn additional revenues in the used DVD market when they stop paying millions of dollars to "talent." There once was a time when the studios were content to live on the money they made from theatrical release and television. I recall quite a few excellent movies from those years, don't you? I wonder how they managed that.

Book, music and videogame industry are also complaining about the used market. The fact that the situation exist doesn't mean that they are happy with it and that they want it to continue.

"Talent" are unique hence the fact that they are worth million. This is what makes the difference between a blockbuster and a made for TV movie.

As for the good old day, you got the "few" part right. For every "casablanca" how many "Plan 9 from outer space" class of movie (I do like plan 9 but not for its artistic value :p).

More analysis on the Redbox impact...


With every action by the studios, Redbox gets more press, most of it good from a consumer standpoint.

http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1120000312/post/1350048135.html

I have not heard one peep from any of the network news programs regarding this news or has it posted on the front page of any network news website.
Seems all the news/press is here at AVS. :p

I use Redbox quite a bit but I wouldn't buy a used DVD from them at $7. No case and some of those discs are pretty badly scratched even a couple of days after release. At least at Blockbuster you can check the condition of the disc before you buy it.

Seems all the news/press is here at AVS. :p

USA Today and Associated Press have written stories about Redbox, including the impact on disc pricing and studio revenue.

The topic is hardly obscure...

USA Today and Associated Press have written stories about Redbox, including the impact on disc pricing and studio revenue.

The topic is hardly obscure...

Guess he doesn't watch Fox Business TV. :D

http://video.foxbusiness.com/8308010/redbox-sues-20th-century-fox/?category_id=1292d14d0e3afdcf0b31500afefb92724c08f046

Guess he doesn't watch Fox Business TV. :D

http://video.foxbusiness.com/8308010/redbox-sues-20th-century-fox/?category_id=1292d14d0e3afdcf0b31500afefb92724c08f046
And either do 90% of the public.
They rely on network news that comes on at 5,6,10 and 11pm or shows like GMA and the likes.

And either do 90% of the public.
They rely on network news that comes on at 5,6,10 and 11pm or shows like GMA and the likes.

Are you saying if consumer electronic or entertainment news do not reach these venues then it doesn't reach consumers?

Hehe....

, this is not a business model that supports studio growth.

Less profit for the studio's = less incentive to produce content from lesser know producers, less movies for everyone - THANKS REBOX:mad:

Yet there are still some people here who side with the studios over the consumer. Go figure!

Because most people here know the tighter money gets the less likely we are to see both new movies by lesser know producers and the less inventive they will have to release vault content for us to enjoy. Why should the if they can't make any money on it?

No one should want that to happen.

Less profit for the studio's = less incentive to produce content from lesser know producers, less movies for everyone - THANKS REBOX:mad:

Redbox is not doing anything illegal or immoral. They are just taking advantage of a legal reality with physical media... namely the "First Sale Doctrine" which allows them to rent, lend or re-sell physical media once it is acquired.


The studios will eventually stop fighting the new price point on content and work on making it even easier for people to watch the content where they want, when they want and distributed at a lower cost.

Even though it is not a great deal for the studios, the deal that Sony made with Redbox is probably the best they can hope for right now. $1 rentals suck for the studios, but at least the deal provides some price protection on sell-through media.

In the meantime the studios can also look at lowering their costs of renting movies while still providing easy access to content at an attractive consumer price.

Because most people here know the tighter money gets the less likely we are to see both new movies by lesser know producers and the less inventive they will have to release vault content for us to enjoy. Why should the if they can't make any money on it?

No one should want that to happen.

Did you say less movies made?

GREAT!

Maybe we can be spared total trash like DANCE FLICK and IMAGINE THAT.

;)

Because most people here know the tighter money gets the less likely we are to see both new movies by lesser know producers and the less inventive they will have to release vault content for us to enjoy. Why should the if they can't make any money on it?

No one should want that to happen.

I have watched a MUCH higher percentage of small budget and independent films lately due to them being available and just hit "Play" to enjoy.

I have watched a MUCH higher percentage of small budget and independent films lately due to them being available and just hit "Play" to enjoy.

But are they paying their way and are you getting the very best possible version? It’s one thing to drag something out of the vault and another entirely to provide a cleaned, scratch removed, HQ hand adjusted scan that all movies should have.

Anyway, you either understand this or you don't.

Did you say less movies made?

GREAT!

Maybe we can be spared total trash like DANCE FLICK and IMAGINE THAT.

;)


Or maybe the next great movie like Star Wars will just become too risky because it is just too costly to make?

I’m pretty sure they don’t decide that we have had too many great movies lately, time to produce a great BOMB of a movie. ;)

But are they paying their way and are you getting the very best possible version? It’s one thing to drag something out of the vault and another entirely to provide a cleaned, scratch removed, HQ hand adjusted scan that all movies should have.

Anyway, you either understand this or you don't.
Some don't care about quality, only quantity.

But are they paying their way and are you getting the very best possible version? It’s one thing to drag something out of the vault and another entirely to provide a cleaned, scratch removed, HQ hand adjusted scan that all movies should have.

Anyway, you either understand this or you don't.

I am certain they are not being pirated.

The quality of the independent films I have seen has been great. In my scenario, it is the smaller independent films that seem to have the best transfers available. And as always, the consumer will ultimately make the decision on what they value.

Many things start out looking good for the consumer but turn out to be bad for everyone and everything in its path... exhibit 1: starts with a W, ends with a mart.

That's quite a stretch. Care to elaborate on how the Wal mart model actually applies in this particular scenario?

Or maybe the next great movie like Star Wars will just become too risky because it is just too costly to make?

I’m pretty sure they don’t decide that we have had too many great movies lately, time to produce a great BOMB of a movie. ;)

They have always budgeted big bucks for certain movies. Been that way for a long time.

Do you really think they are going to give mega bucks to "little known producers and directors?";)

It is evident from the movies being released that studios are looking to either create "tent pole" movies or add to them.

Maybe District 9 will give them a clue - that you don't have to spend big bucks to make a profitable movie.

They have always budgeted big bucks for certain movies. Been that way for a long time.

Do you really think they are going to give mega bucks to "little known producers and directors?";)

It is evident from the movies being released that studios are looking to either create "tent pole" movies or add to them.

Maybe District 9 will give them a clue - that you don't have to spend big bucks to make a profitable movie.


Perfect example!
If you read about the making of district 9 it almost did not happen. Only because M$ decided to pull back on a Halo movie freeing Peter Jackson up to look for something else did it happen. Had he been tied up with Halo there would very likely have been no District 9 or if there was it would have likely been SO low budget it might not have been made . Thankfully the money ($30 million) and Peter were there to save the day.


For an example of what tight money is doing to the film industry, check out the NYTIMES...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/business/media/13independent.html
The economic slowdown and tight credit have squeezed the entertainment industry along with everybody else, resulting in significantly fewer big-studio films in the pipeline and an even tougher road for smaller-budget independent projects. Independent distribution companies are much less likely to pull out the checkbook while many of the big studios have all but gotten out of the indie film business.


Sometimes, the odd approach actually works.

“Anvil! The Story of Anvil,” a documentary about a Canadian metal band, turned into the do-it-yourself equivalent of a smash hit when it stretched a three-screen opening in April into a four-month run, still under way, on more than 150 screens around the country.

“I paid for everything, I took a second mortgage on my house,” said Sacha Gervasi, the film’s director. :eek:

I will repeat what I said before, the movies for a while are costing way too much to produce and market. some stars are getting payed way way too much and they are only stars, not such great actors really and I am not the first one here to point that out. so again I am repeating, the cost of making movies today is inflated. and the movies suck most of the times. I am guilty myself of buying crappy movies only for the sake of having something to spin in HD. for sure I am not the only one here. our criteria for what`s a movie worth buying has greatly diminished. so I hope they start making movies that are worth being bought and kept.

on the other note, I would seriously consider not buying a second hand movie if it is not in great condition and I can`t buy it new. these disk as gnj1958 said can be in terrible conditions as not everybody takes care of them properly. I only buy second hand vinyl as some of these can`t be found new. and as good as they looked they have hisses and other c...p. so I am always go for new if you have the possibility.


SeijiSensei, man you are so incredibly right, it was not a that long ago when they just relied on theatrical and television revenue. that model lasted not just a few years, so the point is just their greed. now they even sell movies to be played on planes when flying. they should just stop complaining.

Redbox, e-Play plan changes in response to consumer complaints

http://www.selfservice.org/article_5138_23.php

And either do 90% of the public.
They rely on network news that comes on at 5,6,10 and 11pm or shows like GMA and the likes.

Here you go - a list of news carrying media that is discussing redbox:

http://www.redbox.com/Press/News.aspx

Redbox, e-Play plan changes in response to consumer complaints

http://www.selfservice.org/article_5138_23.php
That's funny...

most likely those returning disc 15 seconds before the end of the 1 day rental window.

Multiple browsing devices on 1 machine can get expensive, fast.

Here's some recent RB news: Credit card skimming alert

http://www.redboxcodes.com/redbox-warns-credit-card-skimmers

That's funny...

most likely those returning disc 15 seconds before the end of the 1 day rental window.

Multiple browsing devices on 1 machine can get expensive, fast.

First you are concerned about the studios making money - now your concern has shifted to Redbox?

:confused: = :p

Here's some recent RB news: Credit card skimming alert

http://www.redboxcodes.com/redbox-warns-credit-card-skimmers

I had that happen to me twice - both times while using an ATM at a bank. The theives got $500 each time but I was not held liable by my bank and they refunded me the $500 each time.

I had that happen to me twice - both times while using an ATM at a bank. The theives got $500 each time but I was not held liable by my bank and they refunded me the $500 each time.

Fun expierience though, wasn't it?:(

Fun expierience though, wasn't it?:(

Wonderful - Juuust wonderful. :mad:

Each time it took almost 2 weeks before the bank credited my account for the stolen $500 and I had to wait to get another Debit Card.

Wonderful - Juuust wonderful. :mad:

Each time it took almost 2 weeks before the bank credited my account for the stolen $500 and I had to wait to get another Debit Card.
Been there, done that.

Here you go - a list of news carrying media that is discussing redbox:

http://www.redbox.com/Press/News.aspx
Yes, discussing Redbox but not the specific news we are talking about.
If this news was a real concern, it would have made the news quickly to all major network news and shows.

How's your shares doing?


First, I have no stock in any movie studio what so ever. :rolleyes:

In addition I want all my HD free. I want 100% of the movies ever made to be restored to best possible quality and release to the public domain. I want all the current theatrical releases to move to PD and release with all the extras, directors commentary, pip, and full featured live abilities as soon as they are removed from the theaters. This is what "I" want and expect in a perfect world....

In the REAL world I want my HDM in the best possible quality and own two BD players because of it. I buy all the movies that are must haves for me, but that is a fairly low number vs all the available titles. While I would like for the prices to be lower I am a realist. I know that less profits I would see far fewer titles available. Yes, it is a fine line between overpricing the movies and reducing the incentive of others to buy and making enough profits for the studios to be encouraged to release more titles.

Redbox is not doing anything illegal or immoral. They are just taking advantage of a legal reality with physical media... namely the "First Sale Doctrine" which allows them to rent, lend or re-sell physical media once it is acquired.


Since I have no idea how Redbox gets the original media I can't comment on their "First Sale Doctrine" standing. But, if they are forced to buy retail how close are they to skirting the "Derivative Works" clause if they do not include all the original packaging? I know that California seems to be much stricter on this than other parts of the country, but since most of the US studios are there this could be interesting.

Since I have no idea how Redbox gets the original media I can't comment on their "First Sale Doctrine" standing. But, if they are forced to buy retail how close are they to skirting the "Derivative Works" clause if they do not include all the original packaging? I know that California seems to be much stricter on this than other parts of the country, but since most of the US studios are there this could be interesting.

Derivative Work has nothing to do with physical packaging. It is actually a defense against copyright by creating a new work on an original work that provides sufficient new content or creativity to be considered a new work (and not violate copyright law).

I don't see how the concept of "Derivative Work" applies to "Fair Use Doctrine" whatsoever.

And the courts have been very clear that "Fair Use Doctrine" allows for rental of physical media once it is legally purchased. So much so that no studio has even tried to challenge it in many years.

In the REAL world I want my HDM in the best possible quality and own two BD players because of it. I buy all the movies that are must haves for me, but that is a fairly low number vs all the available titles. While I would like for the prices to be lower I am a realist. I know that less profits I would see far fewer titles available. Yes, it is a fine line between overpricing the movies and reducing the incentive of others to buy and making enough profits for the studios to be encouraged to release more titles.

It is up to the studios to adjust to the changing marketplace. And they will.

There is nothing illegal or immoral about Redbox's business plan. It will lower the value of their movies on an ARPU basic, but I am sure the studios will find a way to boost their overall profits via a combination of growth/availability (via convenience and pricing) and cost control.

You give them too much credit. These are the same studios that approved Land of the Lost's $100 million budget.

You give them too much credit. These are the same studios that approved Land of the Lost's $100 million budget.

They must be doing something right. There are entire websites dedicated just to optimizing viewing studio content... :cool:

FWIW, from Adams Media Research: The average Redbox customer spends $2.14 on each title rented, meaning that they keep the DVD for a little more than two days.

Kiosks are experiencing some amazing growth!

Video rental kiosks, including Redbox, are experiencing more growth than either traditional store or subscription rental and are on track to make up 30% of the U.S. rental market in 2010, according to the NPD Group.

Through the first half of 2009, the share of rental turns (the number of videos rented by consumers) reached 19 percent for video kiosks such as Redbox, compared to 36 percent for Netflix and other subscription services, and 45 percent for Blockbuster and other traditional brick–and-mortar video stores.


“Consumers are obviously responding positively to the perceived value of $1 per day rentals, and they appreciate the convenience offered by video rental kiosks,” said Russ Crupnick, VP of industry analysis for NPD.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/npd-kiosks-make-30-us-rental-market-2010-16831

Coinstar: Redbox Will Keep Expanding, Weisel Contends

“We anticipate the rapid growth of Redbox to continue over the next five years,” he writes. Black contends that it is “only a matter of time” until Redbox signs license agreements with all of the major film studios. He also thinks that competitive pressures from the video-on-demand market will not be a major threat. However, he does say that operating margins are likely to fall from 16% to 14% in 2010, and that the company will need to develop an online strategy to keep growing in five years.

http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/08/25/coinstar-redbox-will-keep-expanding-weisel-contends/

Off topic and condescending posts removed. Along with some bickering. Stick to the topic.

Paramount signs trial deal with Redbox (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6685858.html)

As I said earlier, I believe all the delays announced by the studios was nothing more than a little hardball. I believe the studios would be fine with a little revenue sharing and limiting the sale of used disc.

Paramount signs trial deal with Redbox (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6685858.html)

As I said earlier, I believe all the delays announced by the studios was nothing more than a little hardball. I believe the studios would be fine with a little revenue sharing and limiting the sale of used disc.

It is more of a deal with the devil. They realize that ultimately there is nothing they can do to stop Redbox, and that limiting used disc sales is the best they can hope for.

Looks like the beginning of a rental share agreement. Why else would you need rental data.
Looks like it's RB trying to make the deal w/ the devil for day/date release.

Looks like the beginning of a rental share agreement. Why else would you need rental data.
Looks like it's RB trying to make the deal w/ the devil for day/date release.

True.

I am sure that Redbox would much rather do business with wholesalers or studios directly because they offer something that they can't get if they do business with retailers . . .

Just a disc. If they buy 50,000 copies of a movie from say Wal-Mart - they have to get the discs out of the packaging which they then will throw away. Time, money and labor consuming.

What a sight to behold...5 RB dudes(and /or dudettes) slicing open 50,000 shrink wrapped dvds(including that security tape thingy at the top), putting the discs in those RB sleeves and trashing all the rest of the packaging. Imagine the dumpster bills...

What a sight to behold...5 RB dudes(and /or dudettes) slicing open 50,000 shrink wrapped dvds(including that security tape thingy at the top), putting the discs in those RB sleeves and trashing all the rest of the packaging. Imagine the dumpster bills...

What is truly amazing is the manufacturing costs (for discs, packaging, shrink-wrap, etc) in the first place!! Especially when you consider how little ARPU the studios will see from each rental!

True.

I am sure that Redbox would much rather do business with wholesalers or studios directly because they offer something that they can't get if they do business with retailers . . .

Just a disc. If they buy 50,000 copies of a movie from say Wal-Mart - they have to get the discs out of the packaging which they then will throw away. Time, money and labor consuming.

The studios are going to have to make deals with Redbox... not because the business model serves them, but because there is no way to stop Redbox from acquiring and renting the content (for $1). The alternative of not working with them and dealing with discs being dumped on the market is much worse!

Actually, I can imagine the studios trying to use BD+ to circumvent the realistic rental of Blu-ray discs and force rentailers to license special rental discs instead.

Not sure if they would try this, but I do recall that the Sony deal explicitly excluded Blu-ray.

The studios are going to have to make deals with Redbox... not because the business model serves them, but because there is no way to stop Redbox from acquiring and renting the content (for $1). The alternative of not working with them and dealing with discs being dumped on the market is much worse!

If the studios did not make a deal with Redbox, this means that Redbox would have had to buy discs retail, open all packaging and insert the discs in their envelope. Unpacking these discs would require additional labor and disposing all packing material(wrapping, disc security label, disc cases.) would not be free and would cut in to their margin significantly.

It seems this move by the studios is to get a bigger cut of Redbox's profits to allow them to get the "wherehouse" disc prices at a minimum loss on their margin. The studio's still win as they got what they wanted, more money for basically doing nothing but puff their chest.

If the studios did not make a deal with Redbox, this means that Redbox would have had to buy discs retail, open all packaging and insert the discs in their envelope. Unpacking these discs would require additional labor and disposing all packing material(wrapping, disc security label, disc cases.) would not be free and would cut in to their margin significantly.

It seems this move by the studios is to get a bigger cut of Redbox's profits to allow them to get the "wherehouse" disc prices at a minimum loss on their margin. The studio's still win as they got what they wanted, more money for basically doing nothing but puff their chest.

I agree that the studios are making the most out of a bad situation. They would love to shut down Redbox and avoid the devaluation of their content in rental and the impact on sell-through, but they have no way to achieve that.

Ultimately, I think Redbox is being generous to the studios not so much for today but to make sure they have a relationship in place as they look to transition to Digital Distribution. In the Digital Distribution space they will absolutely need direct contracts with the studios to license the content for rentals.

Speaking about being generous to the studios... I have noticed an unsustainable trend in their contracts with the studios. Namely promising them significantly more kiosk share than their actual rental market share:


guaranteed market share of 18.5% for Paramount titles in Redbox kiosks, almost double the 10% share the studio has in the overall rental market

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6685858.html

Sony titles “are expected to represent approximately 19.9% percent of the total DVDs licensed and purchased by Redbox for 2009.” That will give Sony a significantly larger presence in Redbox kiosks than it commands in the broader rental channel. The studio’s overall rental market share was 13.9% in the first half of the year, according to Rentrak.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6672210.html


guarantees Lionsgate an approximatedly 7.4% market share in Redbox kiosks

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6675982.html



They have given away 45.8% of their capacity without counting Disney, or having Warner (largest rental studio), Fox, Universal, MGM, Anchor Bay or any other studio lined up. I understand the importance of getting studios on board, but the precedence of promising up to double market share to studios is going to make it impossible to properly manage the business based on year over year market demands.

Speaking about being generous to the studios... I have noticed an unsustainable trend in their contracts with the studios. Namely promising them significantly more kiosk share than their actual rental market share:




http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6685858.html



http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6672210.html




http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6675982.html



They have given away 45.8% of their capacity without counting Disney, or having Warner (largest rental studio), Fox, Universal, MGM, Anchor Bay or any other studio lined up. I understand the importance of getting studios on board, but the precedence of promising up to double market share to studios is going to make it impossible to properly manage the business based on year over year market demands.

From your first link:

Redbox signed a trial revenue-sharing deal with Paramount Pictures under which the studio will make its DVD releases available on street date to the kiosk operator through 2009. If the deal sticks, Redbox will pay Paramount about $575 million over the five-year term, with a guaranteed market share of 18.5% for Paramount titles in Redbox kiosks, almost double the 10% share the studio has in the overall rental market, according to Rentrak. The deal potentially reps 25% more revenue than Redbox’s biggest contract to date—a $460 million, five-year pact that gives Sony 19.9% share in Redbox kiosks.

We may not be understanding how they are arriving at those %'s. How is it that the Paramount deal - which is a smaller % than the Sony deal, can reap larger dollars?

We may not be understanding how they are arriving at those %'s. How is it that the Paramount deal - which is a smaller % than the Sony deal, can reap larger dollars?

Paramount negotiated getting more $$ per title.

Paramount negotiated getting more $$ per title.

OK - that would make sense seeing as how Paramount has the 2 biggest movies of the year.

according to new stats from NPD, around 30 percent of all DVD rentals in the U.S. will be from kiosks next year; in the first half of this year alone, Redbox’s share of all video rentals nationwide has been about 19 percent.

:eek:

Paramount’s Moore said that the studio hasn’t reached any “definitive conclusions” about how it will move forward after the trial, if the data shows that the kiosk-rentals are cutting into overall revenue. (As Ben Fritz notes, Redbox will likely hit the studio with a lawsuit if it does try to impose release windows like Warner Bros., Fox and Universal).

:D

http://paidcontent.org/article/419-paramount-to-test-rental-rev-share-deal-with-redbox/

It is obvious the studios are not happy with kiosks.

Consumers should be thrilled as it does put pricing pressure on content. Studios need to adapt and find ways to derive the most profit they can as ARPU drops.

Paramount's deal is understood to give the studio a revenue share on rentals, whereas Sony and Lions Gate are both selling their discs wholesale to the Redbox.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2009/08/paramount-to-study-redbox-effect-before-triggering-575-million-deal.html

That is why the Paramount deal is bigger than the Sony deal

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2009/08/paramount-to-study-redbox-effect-before-triggering-575-million-deal.html

That is why the Paramount deal is bigger than the Sony deal

Some interesting paragraphs in that story:

Many studio executives have said they're not only concerned about the direct effect of Redbox rentals on their bottom line, but also a reduction in the perceived value of their products. "Having our [movies] rented at $1 in the rental window is grossly undervaluing our products," Chase Carey, president of Fox's parent company, News Corp., said on a recent conference call with Wall Street analysts.

However, Redbox's defenders point out that average revenue from a kiosk rental is more than $2, as consumers typically keep the discs for several days.

In addition, Redbox President Mitch Lowe recently said that the company will be experimenting with pricing structures. According to one industry source, it will start that process by the end of the year, and one point of experimentation will be charging a higher price for the first night's rental.

The devaluation concern of the studios was well known. What I find interesting is that Redbox is looking to charge more for the first night's rental! That is a huge departure from their current business plan.

The other thought I had was how "revenue sharing" would impact their frequent free rental promotions. Is Redbox going to price themselves out of their current growth path?

Some interesting paragraphs in that story:



The devaluation concern of the studios was well known. What I find interesting is that Redbox is looking to charge more for the first night's rental! That is a huge departure from their current business plan.

The other thought I had was how "revenue sharing" would impact their frequent free rental promotions. Is Redbox going to price themselves out of their current growth path?

Mitch Lowe is the President of Redbox. As you can see he has a very impressive resume so I would think he knows what he is doing:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchlowe

In a very short period of time RB has commanded 19% of all rentals. And that % is climbing literally monthly.

Redbox has the trump card that out trumps price = convinence

What will the future hold? Will they have to change the $1 pricing? Only time will tell. You must admit that taking three Hollywood studios to court was probably not in his business plan.

The mode of low ball price operators like this is to kill competition and then jack prices. Count on the $1 price to change.

The mode of low ball price operators like this is to kill competition and then jack prices. Count on the $1 price to change.
You mean like how netflix subscribers received DVD & blu-ray at a single price then when they seen they had enough blu-ray subscribers, they mandated additional cost to receive blu-ray. :)

Analyst: Look For Disney, Universal Deals With Redbox Next

“We would not be surprised to see a more formal distribution agreement announced [between Disney and Redbox], further demonstrating studio support for this channel,” Wold wrote to investors Aug. 26. “In addition, on the Universal legal front, now that the court is allowing Redbox’s antitrust claims to continue, we would not be surprised to see an agreement with Universal be announced prior to any court ruling. We believe it would be in Universal’s best interest to return to the table and negotiate a distribution deal with Redbox as opposed to continuing the legal fight and potentially losing an antitrust claim.”

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/analyst-look-disney-universal-deals-with-redbox-next-16852

The mode of low ball price operators like this is to kill competition and then jack prices. Count on the $1 price to change.We have seen this many times, IMO, Microsoft Office was/(is?) one of the best examples. Another point that I believe about Red Box: they know the $1.00 is the attraction for the initial rental but RB knows the habits of most people and knows most folks will keep the disc for more than 24 hours.

Mitch Lowe is the President of Redbox. As you can see he has a very impressive resume so I would think he knows what he is doing:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchlowe

In a very short period of time RB has commanded 19% of all rentals. And that % is climbing literally monthly.

Redbox has the trump card that out trumps price = convinence

What will the future hold? Will they have to change the $1 pricing? Only time will tell. You must admit that taking three Hollywood studios to court was probably not in his business plan.

I find Netflix by mail far more convenient than Redbox. I also find streaming to be the most convenient.

I think you underestimate the attractiveness and allure of the price. Redbox themselves point to price as the main advantage.

I need to look into it again, but even with their growth Coinstar (Redbox) does not have a very large cash reserve. These deals could actually end up slowing their growth or cause them to take on some debt in the next 2 years.

I find Netflix by mail far more convenient than Redbox.

How? You sit at your PC and click on titles that you want to see then wait for them to arrive by mail. I drive 1 mile to my nearest RB and get a movie. In less than 10 minutes I am there and back with a movie in my hand to watch.

Plus I have no monthly fee to pay. It is pay as I go,

I also find streaming to be the most convenient.

True - but you need equipment other than a DVD player to take advantage of streaming. And you are going to pay for that stream in some way which I would guess would be more than $1 per movie.

I think you underestimate the attractiveness and allure of the price. Redbox themselves point to price as the main advantage.

Like I said - we will see what shakes out on the pricing - and as it was mentioned - it may just be for the first week a D/D hits the kiosk.

I need to look into it again, but even with their growth Coinstar (Redbox) does not have a very large cash reserve. These deals could actually end up slowing their growth or cause them to take on some debt in the next 2 years.

Coinstar May Sell Amusements, Other Business Units

BELLEVUE, WA -- Coinstar Inc. is contemplating selling its nationwide Sugarloaf amusement route, which includes the Folz bulk vending and Rainbow Crane operations. The company's money-transfer services and prepaid calling card kiosk business may also be sold. Alternatively, Coinstar may seek operating partners for these businesses.

Quarterly financial results for the period ended June 30 showed profits strongly up to $7 million, better than double the profits for the same quarter in 2008. Revenues climbed 43% to $314 million. Coinstar has enjoyed substantial growth since gaining full ownership of the Redbox business earlier this year.

http://www.topix.com/com/cstr/2009/08/coinstar-may-sell-amusements-other-business-units

How? You sit at your PC and click on titles that you want to see then wait for them to arrive by mail. I drive 1 mile to my nearest RB and get a movie. In less than 10 minutes I am there and back with a movie in my hand to watch.

Plus I have no monthly fee to pay. It is pay as I go,

At this point I do nothing but put finished discs in the mail. My queue is setup quite nicely. :-)



True - but you need equipment other than a DVD player to take advantage of streaming. And you are going to pay for that stream in some way which I would guess would be more than $1 per movie.

I already had an XBox 360. It is part of my Netflix subscription (at $8/month) and I would guess that I pay less than $1 a movie... although it would be better measured per disc since I watch lots of television series via Netflix streaming.


Like I said - we will see what shakes out on the pricing - and as it was mentioned - it may just be for the first week a D/D hits the kiosk.

We will see... but I do believe if they up their pricing it will impact their business growth.

Quarterly financial results for the period ended June 30 showed profits strongly up to $7 million, better than double the profits for the same quarter in 2008. Revenues climbed 43% to $314 million. Coinstar has enjoyed substantial growth since gaining full ownership of the Redbox business earlier this year.

Exactly. $7 million profit for the quarter is tiny compared to the size of the contracts they just signed. It would not surprise me one bit to see them file in one of their next few SEC filings that they are taking on debt.

At this point I do nothing but put finished discs in the mail. My queue is setup quite nicely. :-)





I already had an XBox 360. It is part of my Netflix subscription (at $8/month) and I would guess that I pay less than $1 a movie... although it would be better measured per disc since I watch lots of television series via Netflix streaming.




We will see... but I do believe if they up their pricing it will impact their business growth.



Exactly. $7 million profit for the quarter is tiny compared to the size of the contracts they just signed. It would not surprise me one bit to see them file in one of their next few SEC filings that they are taking on debt.

Those contracts are a promise to pay in the future. No need to borrow money today thus forth no debt incurred (real $).

Movie Gallery, Others Up Used DVDs

Movie Gallery through the Labor Day weekend is aggressively marketing previously viewed DVDs for $7.99 each, including major releases Watchmen (Warner Home Video), Coraline (Universal Studios Home Entertainment), Push (Summit Home Entertainment) and The Haunting in Connecticut (Lionsgate), among others.

The titles, which were all released in July, normally retail for $14.99 each. Gallery also offers two free used titles ($14.99 each) with the purchase of two titles for $14.99 each.

Considered a cancer by the studios, used DVDs continue to gain market share as rentailers covet the higher margins.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/movie-gallery/movie-gallery-others-used-dvds-16891

Movie Gallery, Others Up Used DVDs



http://www.homemediamagazine.com/movie-gallery/movie-gallery-others-used-dvds-16891

It makes sense for Movie Gallery to acquire them and to sell them so cheap since I recall that rentailers sell newer releases for about $4 wholesale.

Universal Says It Didn’t Direct Retailers To Keep DVDs From Redbox

In an Aug. 31 answer to Redbox’s amended complaint against Universal Studios Home Entertainment, the studio denies that Redbox is entitled to Universal DVDs from distributors VPD and Ingram and denies that it has engaged in any type of DVD retailer blockade against the $1-a-night DVD rental kiosk operator.

“For example, defendants have demanded that Best Buy and Wal-Mart retail stores cease or severely limit their sales of Universal DVDs to Redbox,” the amended complaint reads. “This is evidenced by various attempts by Redbox personnel to purchase multiple copies of Universal DVDs from Best Buys and Wal-Marts after Dec. 1, 2008.”

Redbox goes on to allege in the amended complaint that Redbox employees were told the stores could not sell more than five copies of the DVDs, retailers cancelled orders by Redbox to buy DVDs from them, and in one instance a Redbox employee was escorted out of a store for trying to buy multiple copies of a Universal DVD.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/universal/universal-says-it-didnt-direct-retailers-keep-dvds-redbox-16895

Universal Says It Didn’t Direct Retailers To Keep DVDs From Redbox
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/universal/universal-says-it-didnt-direct-retailers-keep-dvds-redbox-16895

I don't get it. Why do they even have to identify themselves as RB employees if there was no agreement between the parties in the first place!

I don't get it. Why do they even have to identify themselves as RB employees if there was no agreement between the parties in the first place!
It might have gone something like:

The RB employee walks up to the counter at BB with 42 copies of "X". The clerk says I can't sell you that many at a time. The RB employee says "you have to". The BB employee calls the manager who explains the store policy on the right to limit quantities and refuse sales to dealers. The RB dude persists in making the purchase, the manager then calls security and has him removed.

IMO, the Red Box employees would have identified themselves as such because they would have wanted a large quantity of disc, wanted discounted pricing and wanted wholesaler tax rates. In many states businesses pay only a fraction of a percent of tax on items they intend to resell at retail.

FWIW, from Adams Media Research: The average Redbox customer spends $2.14 on each title rented, meaning that they keep the DVD for a little more than two days.

Thanks. I knew that redbox users couldn't be routinely using the service for just $1 a day... I just knew that the average rental had to be more than that.

The New York Times - September 7, 2009

Movie Studios See a Threat in Growth of Redbox

By BROOKS BARNES

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/07/business/media/07redbox.html

LOS ANGELES -- In 1982, just as the VHS tape was taking off, a "Star Wars" buff named Mitch Lowe had a radical idea. What about building a vending machine that could rent movies? He called his invention Video Droid.

It failed. People were not yet comfortable using credit cards for casual transactions, the tapes broke easily and the technology involved with manipulating their bulk proved too expensive.

But Mr. Lowe did not give up, and his moment seems to have finally come.

Mr. Lowe, 56, is now the president of Redbox, a fast-growing company in Illinois that rents movies for $1 a day via kiosks. By December, there will be 22,000 Redbox machines in spots like supermarkets, Wal-Mart Stores and fast-food restaurants.

Redbox's growth -- it started with 12 kiosks in 2004 and now processes about 80 transactions a second on Friday nights -- has Hollywood's blood boiling. Furious about a potential cannibalization of DVD sales and a broader price devaluation of their product, three studios (20th Century Fox, Warner Brothers and Universal) are refusing to sell DVDs to Redbox until at least 28 days after they arrive in stores.

[snipped - see URL for full story]

Video stores, union reps rally against buck-a-night DVD kiosks


http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/56470


I dunno.....it seems to me, people are goin' overboard with this.

Although I do believe there are things the studios can do to get control of their material, I believe traditional rentailers are indeed going to be a long-term casualty of kiosks. As their own representative stated they "Either (snip) can lower our rates and go out of business or not lower our rates and go out of business,”

Alarmed by the rise of rental kiosks such as Redbox, the Video Buyers Group is organizing a PR campaign aimed at educating consumers about the perils of $1-per-day movies for the entertainment industry.

Minneapolis-based VBG represents about 1,700 independent video rentailers nationally, offering insight on distribution, insurance and digital challenges.

For the time being a grassroots effort, the campaign plans underscore the negative impact $1 movie rentals have on a movie industry that has banked on packaged media for a big part of its revenue.

The buyers group is in talks with studios, distributors and even the Screen Actors Guild to elicit support for the proposed print, online and retail campaign, according to John Engen, sales representative with VBG.

“It is devaluing the industry,” Engen, said. “The kiosk is taking the video business down the same path the Internet took the music industry.”

One Arkansas-based rentailer said he countered the influx of Redbox kiosks in McDonald’s and other venues by addressing local city councils about the appropriateness of kiosks being able to rent ‘R’-rated movies to minors.

Engen said the group soundly supports efforts by Warner Home Video, 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment and Universal Studios Home Entertainment to delay distribution of new-release titles to kiosks 30 days to 45 days after street date.

He said the proliferation of Redbox and other discount kiosks would ultimately affect the value of movies made by studios.

“Either rental kiosks change their pricing or they don’t receive copies day-and-date,” Engen said.

Rob Enderle, principal analyst with Enderle Group in San Jose, Calif., said the likelihood a PR campaign would convince consumers to pay more to “save” the billion dollar movie industry is farfetched. Enderle suggested rentailers aggressively pursue online distribution models that tout superior selection and convenience in comparison to kiosks.

“I expect the success of this [campaign] will be worse than the music industry’s efforts with music downloads,” Enderle said.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/buyers-group-looks-fight-kiosks-16966

"Consumers! $1 a night rentals may be good for you but they are bad for us! So help us fight this!"

:rolleyes:

In many communities it will mean 1 or 2 shuttered store fronts ---> no rent, no tax revenue and 10 to 15 employees w/o jobs. That is the local impact.
But hey, I still have my job though, don't I.

In many communities it will mean 1 or 2 shuttered store fronts ---> no rent, no tax revenue and 10 to 15 employees w/o jobs. That is the local impact.
But hey, I still have my job though, don't I.

No repercussions like this, when Lowes and Home Depot put all those local hardare stores out of business. ;)

Redbox parent to add kiosks at U.K. grocer

SEPT. 8 | PHYSICAL: Redbox parent Coinstar will install DVDXpress kiosks at 18 Tesco supermarkets in the U.K. as part of a trial run for the sister brand of the largest U.S. kiosk operator in a European market, whose kiosk-rental growth is expected to lag that of the U.S.

The DVDXpress kiosks will charge a nightly rate of £1.50 ($2.48) at its machines, which will hold about 300 titles. Customers also might be offered a £9.99 ($16.49) monthly membership that allows for unlimited rentals. Customers who keep a title for 15 days will be charged £25 ($41.26), according to the company.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6695229.html

No repercussions like this, when Lowes and Home Depot put all those local hardare stores out of business. ;)
But Lowes and Home Depot create enough positions to provide those displaced with jobs, a kiosk does not. One person could service X amount or a city of Kiosks.

The report suggests Blu-ray rentals in the United States could top $5 billion in consumer spending by 2013, with almost $10 billion spent buying BD movies. That’s nearly twice the revenue Screen Digest expects U.S. consumers to spend buying and renting standard DVDs during the same period.

Despite the concept of kiosk rentals originating in Italy 20 years ago, Screen Digest expects rental spending (including kiosks) in Europe to decline by 11% this year and by an average of 6% annually from 2010 to 2013.

Helen Davis Jayalath, head of video research with Screen Digest, said rental kiosks in Europe are primarily seen as extension of brick-and-mortar rental stores and subsequently don’t compete on price.


http://www.homemediamagazine.com/kiosk/analyst-830-million-us-rental-kiosk-spending-2009-16907

.

The report suggests Blu-ray rentals in the United States could top $5 billion in consumer spending by 2013, with almost $10 billion spent buying BD movies. That’s nearly twice the revenue Screen Digest expects U.S. consumers to spend buying and renting standard DVDs during the same period.

So 5 + 10 = $15B

Then add DVD's $7.5B for a total of $22.5B which is $.1B more than what was generated in 2008:

http://www.dvdinformation.com/News/press/CES2009yearEnd.htm

And home video market revenue is shrinking (2009 may drop below $21B) - but it's going to go back up by 2013?

I walked into a convenience store the other day and saw a Blockbuster kiosk. I didn't have the time to look into the pricing scheme, though. First I heard of Blockbuster competing in the kiosk market.

But Lowes and Home Depot create enough positions to provide those displaced with jobs, a kiosk does not. One person could service X amount or a city of Kiosks.

But this is called progress/innovation and is simply automation. How about ATM machines, should they also be rejected because they take away the jobs of bank tellers? What about automatic car washes? What about anything that can be automated - should it not be done for the sake of keeping jobs?

So 5 + 10 = $15B

Then add DVD's $7.5B for a total of $22.5B which is $.1B more than what was generated in 2008:

http://www.dvdinformation.com/News/press/CES2009yearEnd.htm

And home video market revenue is shrinking (2009 may drop below $21B) - but it's going to go back up by 2013?

I would take any DVD/Blu-ray sales projections with a grain of salt. The studios cannot even accurately predict how much a title is going to sell in 2 months based on theater ticket revenue. The physical media revenue numbers (based on ticket sales) appears to have dropped significantly this year. Not surprising considering the impact of $1 rentals and an influx of $7 used discs on the market.

But this is called progress/innovation and is simply automation. How about ATM machines, should they also be rejected because they take away the jobs of bank tellers? What about automatic car washes? What about anything that can be automated - should it not be done for the sake of keeping jobs?

While, in this case, I am all for Red Box, to answer your question, in some cases, yes. When the largest profit possible is the end-all be-all, we are all in trouble...

I would take any DVD/Blu-ray sales projections with a grain of salt. The studios cannot even accurately predict how much a title is going to sell in 2 months based on theater ticket revenue. The physical media revenue numbers (based on ticket sales) appears to have dropped significantly this year. Not surprising considering the impact of $1 rentals and an influx of $7 used discs on the market.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. :D

Redbox has just celebrate it's 500 millionth rental. And that's since 2003. Their gross revenue is a tiny tiny fraction of the total revenue earned by DVD rentals.

They claim they are drawing brand new consumers who don't pay for rentals at all.

And how many $7 used DVD's have they sold?

We have seen a shift from the original B & M video rental store to the rent by mail business model.

Now we are seeing another shift to kiosks.

And I can understand why retailers want these kioks in their stores. They provide additional foot traffic that they wouldn't get if the consumer went to a BBi or Movie Gallery store.

It is obvious that the video rental market is a dymanic one and not a static one.

Look what happened to gas stations. They went from full service to self service.

'the times they are a changin."

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. :D

Redbox has just celebrate it's 500 millionth rental. And that's since 2003. Their gross revenue is a tiny tiny fraction of the total revenue earned by DVD rentals.

They claim they are drawing brand new consumers who don't pay for rentals at all.

And how many $7 used DVD's have they sold?

A "tiny, tiny fraction"?

They are at about 10% of the entire market, and growing fast.

With such sales gains, Redbox has about 9% of the U.S. DVD rental market, up from 2.3% a year ago, Coinstar estimates. The company expects 13% market share for Redbox by the end of this year.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6637322.html


Redbox kiosks are growing fast, as are other kiosk vendors:

Redbox has led growth in the U.S. kiosk industry, which is expected to expand over the next few years as video store chains such as Blockbuster and Movie Gallery close underperforming stores. The kiosk operator, which almost doubled its machine count last year, had 15,400 kiosks as of the end of March and plans to have between 20,000 and 22,000 machines by the end of the year.

"Redbox is a great fit for our stores and has proven to be a popular service that is convenient, easy to use and affordable," Bob Butler, senior VP of marketing and merchandising at Albertson's LLC, said in the statement.

Redbox last month said it was adding more kiosks in the 3,000-store Circle K convenience store chain, though didn't say how many Circle Ks were getting new machines.

Meanwhile, Albertson's decision to bring in the Redbox machines is a small setback in TNR/MovieCube parent NCR's effort to gain ground on Redbox in the growing movie-kiosk industry. The ATM-making giant, which in April acquired the majority interest in TNR that it didn't already own, is working with U.S. movie-rental chain leader Blockbuster at developing 3,000 Blockbuster Express machines by the end of the year and 10,000 units by the end of 2010.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6664311.html

Some more up to date info on kiosk (and Redbox) growth:

Redbox's second-quarter sales more than doubled as the largest U.S. movie-rental kiosk operator added machines and boosted the amount of sales it gets from each kiosk, The unit's results helped parent company Coinstar double its earnings from a year earlier.

Coinstar's second-quarter sales from Redbox and the far-smaller DVDXpress brands jumped to $188.9 million from $90 million a year earlier as Coinstar expanded its DVD kiosk count by 86% to 17,900 units while boosting its same-store sales by 33%, the company said in a statement today.

Redbox has led growth in the U.S. kiosk industry, which is expected to expand over the next few years as video store chains such as Blockbuster and Movie Gallery close underperforming stores. U.S. rental revenue from kiosks are expected to more than double between last year and 2011 to $1 billion, while traditional in-store sales are expected to fall during the same period, Adams Media Research said in March. Redbox today boosted its 2008 sales forecast for its DVD operations to as much as $780 million, up 6% from its May forecast.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6674780.html

Analyst: Disney Changing Tune Toward Redbox

The Walt Disney Co. may be changing its conciliatory outlook toward $1-per-day movie rental kiosks and Redbox in particular, according to Pali Research analyst Richard Greenfield.

“We believe the souring of relations caused by the Up situation could lead to Disney seeking a window around Redbox (and hopefully Netflix) in the not-too-distant future,” Greenfield wrote.

Disney CFO Tim Staggs is slated to address an investor Q&A session today in Marina Del Rey, Calif.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/kiosk/analyst-disney-changing-tune-toward-redbox-16979

Disney changing stance on Redbox?

Pali Research analyst Richard Greenfield wrote today (registration required) that Disney -- which sells DVDs to Redbox through third-party distributors -- is seeking "a significantly different arrangement" with the kiosk operator for the November release of Pixar Animation's film "Up." Greenfield described these terms as "far less favorable" and may cause Redbox to purchase "Up" outside of Disney's retailer program.

This would align Disney with the three major studios (Universal, Fox and Warner Bros.) that have sought to impose at least a 28-day waiting period on Redbox, to protect sales of newly released DVDs.

Disney declined to comment about Greenfield's report

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2009/09/disney-changing-stance-on-redbox.html

I walked into a convenience store the other day and saw a Blockbuster kiosk. I didn't have the time to look into the pricing scheme, though. First I heard of Blockbuster competing in the kiosk market.Wow. I thought years ago, they would have come up with a channel of their own. But I guess the streaming thing will have to suffice and it's probably lots cheaper.

Blockbuster May Be ‘More Aggressive’ Closing Stores (Update2)

Blockbuster Inc. Chief Executive Officer James Keyes said the largest movie-rental chain may be more aggressive in closing stores as it deploys as many as 10,000 rental kiosks by mid-2010.

The company had more than 7,100 stores in the U.S. and overseas at the end of the second quarter and has said it plans to close about 300 this year.

“We could be more aggressive as vending ramps up,” Keyes, 54, said yesterday in a telephone interview, referring to store closures. “We’re deploying as many as 10,000 vending machines by the middle of next year.” Blockbuster, based in Dallas, plans to have 500 kiosks by the end of this month and more than 2,500 by year-end.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a5Tlm7yrmyMo


Blockbuster DVD kiosks creeping into New England supermarkets

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/08/28/blockbuster-dvd-kiosks-creeping-into-new-england-supermarkets/

Blockbuster partner buys DVD kiosk operation

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/17720.cfm

Connecting with… Steve Beeks, Lionsgate

Q&A: Redbox has a net-positive impact

SEPT. 11 | Q&A: Lionsgate president and co-chief operating officer Steve Beeks took a pragmatic approach to the growing debate over windows for movie-rental kiosks by striking a $158 million deal to let rental-kiosk leader Redbox rent its DVDs on street date. The agreement aligns the independent studio with Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, which also distributes to Redbox on street date, and Paramount Home Entertainment, which is in a trial deal. Beeks, who has been Lionsgate’s president since 2004 and its co-chief operating officer since 2007, spoke with Video Business reporter Danny King.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6696132.html

Since they don't carry BD or any hd media, why do we care about them here?


I don't get it either, I thought this forum was for HD Media, not about redbox:confused::(

The past month thats about all the threads have been about is dvds:mad::mad:

Lets get back to HD, please:confused:

Connecting with… Steve Beeks, Lionsgate

Q&A: Redbox has a net-positive impact



http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6696132.html

Why do you keep posting about non HD stuff?:confused:

Why not put regular dvd stuff where it belongs?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=44

Redbox is going BD....

Read the entire thread, please; RB is experimenting with BD in some areas of the country. I've never used it, so no idea if BD is available in my area.

Why do you keep posting about non HD stuff?:confused:

1. Lionsgate has already said that they will provide (through channels) BD's to redbox.

2. Netflix has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, as far as posibble sanctions by the studios in question. You think that only means DVD and not BD?

Read the entire thread, please; RB is experimenting with BD in some areas of the country. I've never used it, so no idea if BD is available in my area.
I have not seen any BD availability at any Redbox or those Bluebox kiosks in my area(Seattle, Everett, Tacoma, Renton, Auburn, Puyallup).

These "trial" BD rentals must be in very isolated markets.

I have not seen any BD availability at any Redbox or those Bluebox kiosks in my area(Seattle, Everett, Tacoma, Renton, Auburn, Puyallup).

These "trial" BD rentals must be in very isolated markets.

Read the responses:

http://www.insideredbox.com/redbox-to-test-higher-blu-ray-prices/

Read the responses:

http://www.insideredbox.com/redbox-to-test-higher-blu-ray-prices/
Well, I would have expected that since that response was back in Feb.2009, you would think that Redbox's blu-ray "test" would be more broad and not so myopic and unseen by many who have have seen redbox kiosks.

The blu-ray "test" is almost like a legend and only a selected few have seen them like some sort of unicorn sighting. :)

For the most part, Redbox is just DVD in it's current state of business.
It's like testing TL51. Yes, the technology is there but where are these "tests?"

Red Box will not have Blu-ray titles from Sony Pictures per their agreement. I would not be surprised if Loinsgate, Disney and Paramount had similar agreements with Red Box.

Red Box will not have Blu-ray titles from Sony Pictures per their agreement. I would not be surprised if Loinsgate, Disney and Paramount had similar agreements with Red Box.

Lionsgate specifically said BD would be OK for redbox. The others have not made public statements (not including Sony)

Well, I would have expected that since that response was back in Feb.2009, you would think that Redbox's blu-ray "test" would be more broad and not so myopic and unseen by many who have have seen redbox kiosks.

The blu-ray "test" is almost like a legend and only a selected few have seen them like some sort of unicorn sighting. :)

For the most part, Redbox is just DVD in it's current state of business.
It's like testing TL51. Yes, the technology is there but where are these "tests?"

Redbox has not gone public about their BD "tests" other than this page from their website:

http://www.redbox.com/ads/bluray.aspx

The fact that their tests don't concur with what you expect? :rolleyes:

Professor - There is no information on where BDs are available and they're showing discs that are not even out yet.
You guys are making it up as you go.

There may be blu ray players in cars one day, until then it doesn't make much sense to talk about it, imo.

Same with your seeming obsession to talk about redbox, I'm in So Cal, a big entertainment market, and I don't see any blu ray redboxes here.

Is the assertion that the largest growing rental outlet for physical media (Redbox) does not have current (pilot) and future plans to roll out Blu-ray rental?

WoW!! I would not have expected such a pessimistic attitude about Blu-ray in this forum.

Typical...someone asks for proof and you give...nothing.

There may be blu ray players in cars one day, until then it doesn't make much sense to talk about it, imo.
http://www.slashgear.com/panasonic-cy-bb1000d-in-car-blu-ray-player-revealed-2053178/

Why not? And in-car players would be discussed in the Player forum anyway.

WoW!! I would not have expected such a pessimistic attitude about Blu-ray in this forum.Exactly; I'm going back over to the "red" forum....

Typical...someone asks for proof and you give...nothing.

:rolleyes:

1. I gave a link where people are actually renting BD's from a Redbox

2. I gave a link to Redbox's website that discusses BD

3. Here is a link to the original announcement to carry BD

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/redbox-kiosks-introduces-1-blu-ray-rentals/6161

The fact that there has not been a nationwide rollout or a list of locations where you can rent a BD from redbox . . . so what? Discuss it with Redbox.

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the DVD section. When/If Redbox makes Blu-ray rentals official then someone could start a new thread in this section if they like.

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the DVD section. When/If Redbox makes Blu-ray rentals official then someone could start a new thread in this section if they like.

But that is not the topic of this thread - which are the lawsuits against the studios for their proposed sanctions which may also affect Netflix who does rent BD's

But that is not the topic of this thread - which are the lawsuits against the studios for their proposed sanctions which may also affect Netflix who does rent BD's
Your link cites an article almost a year old and leads to a dead page at redbox.

Very typical...

Do people really believe that Redbox is not testing Blu-ray, and that they don't have interest in rolling out Blu-ray to their kiosks?

Do you honestly believe that the fastest growing rental option for physical media will do so without Blu-ray support?

I would certainly think Redbox has Blu-ray in their sights but anything we say is conjecture till Redbox makes an official announcement that Blu-rays are available as rentals. The same applies to the lawsuits, till there is a ruling then nothing is official (which is subject to appeal).

In general, the mods will not allow a thread about a movie title in the BD software section that have not been officially announced by the studios.

I would certainly think Redbox has Blu-ray in their sights but anything we say is conjecture till Redbox makes an official announcement that Blu-rays are available as rentals. The same applies to the lawsuits, till there is a ruling then nothing is official (which is subject to appeal).

In general, the mods will not allow a thread about a movie title in the BD software section that have not been officially announced by the studios.

There is a long thread here discussing 3-D on BD well before any final specification. Heck, there is a thread dedicated to speculation around 3-D on Blu-ray.

Despite any final standard, everyone knows that a 3-D standard is coming to Blu-ray and are discussing how it will impact consumers and the format.

Discussing pending and imminent technology, political and business changes has long been a part of this forum. The desire to kill this thread seems to be based on something else entirely.

There is a long thread here discussing 3-D on BD well before any final specification. Heck, there is a thread dedicated to speculation around 3-D on Blu-ray.

Despite any final standard, everyone knows that a 3-D standard is coming to Blu-ray and are discussing how it will impact consumers and the format.

Discussing pending and imminent technology, political and business changes has long been a part of this forum. The desire to kill this thread seems to be based on something else entirely.

So here we are - almost 30 days after the OP and well over 200 posts - but NOW there is a problem with the thread? :rolleyes:

I missed the part about killing (locked) this thread, it was suggested that it be moved to the DVD section.

There is a long thread here discussing 3-D on BD well before any final specification. Heck, there is a thread dedicated to speculation around 3-D on Blu-ray.

Despite any final standard, everyone knows that a 3-D standard is coming to Blu-ray and are discussing how it will impact consumers and the format.

Discussing pending and imminent technology, political and business changes has long been a part of this forum. The desire to kill this thread seems to be based on something else entirely.
If you own blu-ray, you would know that there are already some 3-D titles but no standard has been adopted. :)

So, 3-D is already here just not standardized whereas Redbox blu-ray has not even been seen remotely by even 2-5 AVS members.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517j7vaPlXL._SS500_.jpg

So here we are - almost 30 days after the OP and well over 200 posts - but NOW there is a problem with the thread? :rolleyes:

Well, the OP quoted that blu-ray is/may be part of the debate/lawsuit but all most of us at AVS have seen is DVD.

The quote in the OP appears to be a justification to get this DVD lawsuit in the HD forum but in reality as of today, blu-ray in a Redbox is a unicorn.

If you own blu-ray, you would know that there are already some 3-D titles but no standard has been adopted. :)

So, 3-D is already here just not standardized whereas Redbox blu-ray has not even been seen remotely by even 2-5 AVS members.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517j7vaPlXL._SS500_.jpg

The existing 3D BD titles are all Anaglyph - which sucks and is nothing like the true stereoscopic 3D that Panasonic is bringing to the format.

Not sure it matters much, but we rented a Blu-ray at our Redbox in north San Diego a week or two ago ($ 1). Friday the 13th (2009) at this Redbox: Supervalu - Albertsons, 2707 Via De La Valle, Del Mar, CA (don't blame me, it was for my teenagers.) I can't provide any hard proof, so I guess I can be called a liar by some on this board, but I was holding it in my hand...:)

Not sure it matters much, but we rented a Blu-ray at our Redbox in north San Diego a week or two ago ($ 1). Friday the 13th (2009) at this Redbox: Supervalu - Albertsons, 2707 Via De La Valle, Del Mar, CA (don't blame me, it was for my teenagers.) I can't provide any hard proof, so I guess I can be called a liar by some on this board, but I was holding it in my hand...:)

You must be imagining things since Blu-ray via Redbox is a "unicorn". :cool:

The existing 3D BD titles are all Anaglyph - which sucks and is nothing like the true stereoscopic 3D that Panasonic is bringing to the format.

The whole anaglyph thing really does really ruin the color of films. The movies that use the green-magenta glasses has a greenish haze while the red-blue-glasses makes everything a little too red.

Blockbuster plans more store closures

SEPT. 15 | PHYSICAL: Blockbuster will close as many as 960 stores by the end of next year, as the largest U.S. movie-rental chain looks to shutter unprofitable units to cut debt.

The retailer is trying to improve its financials to comply with a recent refinancing agreement and is redeploying cash toward such initiatives as digital delivery and movie rental kiosks.

The company will incur as much as $60 million in lease-termination costs but save as much as $60 million a year with the closures, factoring the closure of money-losing stores and the amount of sales transferred to nearby operating stores, Blockbuster said in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission today.

The pending closures account for as much as 14% of Blockbuster's approximately 7,100 stores. About one in five Blockbuster stores loses money, the company said in the filing.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6696919.html

Expect even more Blockbuster stores to lose money (and close) as Redbox takes a higher percentage of the market.

Blockbuster Express kiosks added to Publix stores

PHYSICAL: Several hundred machines deployed in the southeast

Blockbuster plans to have 2,500 kiosks in operation by the end of the year.

SEPT. 16 | PHYSICAL: Blockbuster and kiosk-maker NCR have started installing their Blockbuster Express movie-rental kiosks at several hundred Publix Super Markets in the southeastern U.S.

Most of the approximately 1,000 Publix stores in Florida, Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina will have the machines, NCR said in a statement today. About 300 of the Blockbuster Express kiosks will replace kiosks with the TNR/MovieCube brand, which is owned by NCR.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6697340.html?desc=topstory

Expect even more Blockbuster stores to lose money (and close) as Redbox takes a higher percentage of the market.

Blockbuster is closing the non-profitable stores, but is looking to greatly expand into the kiosk business. They probably should have started doing this two years ago, but Blockbuster has proven time and again that they are inept at reading the market and understanding what customers want. I hope their kiosks push Blu-Ray better than Red Box has (at least in my area). It could give them a leg up on Redbox..

Blockbuster is closing the non-profitable stores, but is looking to greatly expand into the kiosk business. They probably should have started doing this two years ago, but Blockbuster has proven time and again that they are inept at reading the market and understanding what customers want. I hope their kiosks push Blu-Ray better than Red Box has (at least in my area). It could give them a leg up on Redbox..

They are still inept.

The last I read was that they were not going to use kiosks for "big" new releases. Basically, they are going to wait 30-45 days to put new titles people want into the kiosks.

The decline of BB began years ago. It has been hastened by the economy and less expensive, more convenient rental models.

They are still inept.


I stopped using BB because of a negative experience, and discovered zip.ca. It is an order of magnitude improvement in overall experience, not to mention less expensive. I will probably never go back to a B&M store for my rentals.

Analyst Ponders Redbox’s Ability to Stock New Releases

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/redbox/analyst-ponders-redboxs-ability-stock-new-releases-17068

Time Warner CEO Weighs in on Economics of Kiosks, Netflix

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/warner/time-warner-ceo-weighs-economics-kiosks-netflix-17077

Time Warner CEO Weighs in on Economics of Kiosks, Netflix

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/warner/time-warner-ceo-weighs-economics-kiosks-netflix-17077

Wow!

Bewkes said the studio was in discussions with kiosks to supplant $1-per-day rentals with higher-priced new release content and delay lower-priced rental in order to “get better economics.”

“Otherwise it is not rational for us to put our product out in this form and undermine what we already have in the market,” Bewkes said. “We believe this will be resolved quickly.”

Dauman: Paramount benefits from Redbox

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6697414.html

http://blogmaverick.com/2009/09/15/why-you-want-tv-everywhere-now/

HM: Are there any distribution deals between NCR and studios in the works?

Camera: We continue to have very positive dialogue with all of the studios around creating various distribution deals, which may not look exactly like the deals agreed to by other kiosk operators — those deals are not exclusive, by the way. Historically, consumer choice drives the market, and we’re confident that we’ll be able to find models that we believe will create a value-driven, convenient service that our customers enjoy and works positively for the movie industry as a whole.

Story here (http://www.homemediamagazine.com/blockbuster/six-questions-ncr-gm-alex-camara-17093)

Keyes: Blockbuster Not Supplying ‘Express’ Kiosks with Product

The rollout of 2,500 Blockbuster Express $1-per-day movie rental kiosks through the end of the year includes partner/owner NCR Corp. acquiring content, not through Blockbuster, but from DVD distributors and third-party retailers.

Speaking at a recent Pali Capital conference call, Blockbuster CEO Jim Keyes said the Dallas-based No. 1 DVD rental service is receiving a license fee (1% to 10%) for use of the Blockbuster name and that NCR is supplying Express kiosks with content acquired through distributors such as VPD and Ingram Entertainment and retailers such as Wal-Mart.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/blockbuster/keyes-blockbuster-not-supplying-express-kiosks-with-product-17105

Keyes: Blockbuster Not Supplying ‘Express’ Kiosks with Product



http://www.homemediamagazine.com/blockbuster/keyes-blockbuster-not-supplying-express-kiosks-with-product-17105


Looks like Blockbuster still does not get it.

With some of the biggest summer box office titles slated to street in the next few months, fulfillment looms a larger issue as Warner Home Video, 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment and Universal Studios Home Entertainment mandate 28-day, 30-day and 45-day windows, respectively, for their new-release product distributed through kiosks.

“For Blockbuster, that’s a real consumer conundrum,” Keyes said. “How do you present the brand value that you want, the brand image that you want and constantly disappoint customers?”

As a result, the CEO said Express kiosks are testing various pricess (from $1 to $3) for new-release content, which he said represents about 80% of Blockbuster’s business. He said Express kiosks are also stocking new release titles (“Blockbuster Premiers”) garnered through exclusive deals with studios.


Keyes said he expects (and hopes) there will be an industry-wide imposed window on new-release rentals by kiosks by the end of the year.

The executive said he welcomed delays imposed upon kiosk and by-mail services such as Netflix because it wouldn’t affect Blockbuster’s multi-channel business model that includes traditional brick-and-mortar stores. Indeed, mandating new releases through rental and retail channels first would allow Blockbuster to amortize content prior to its kiosk release thereby making the $1-per-day fee more attractive.

And speaking of Coinstar/Redbox....


Merriman Curhan Ford analyst Eric Wold Sept. 21 upped the earnings estimates for Coinstar Inc., parent of kiosk rental operator Redbox.

The sale of its non-movie entertainment business, a pending fourth-quarter release slate and a $200 million convertible debt offering are all contributing to Coinstar’s boost.

Wold said Coinstar would generate $213.7 million in pre-tax (EBITDA) earnings for fiscal year 2009, up $800,000 from a previous estimate of $212.9 million.

The analyst said the fourth quarter would see significant new release DVDs, including Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, Star Trek and Up, that generated about $4.3 billion in box office revenue — up mid-single digits year-over-year.

“With three of the top five DVD releases coming from ‘pro-Redbox’ studios, we think this bodes well for 4Q rental trends,” Wold wrote in a note.

The analyst said the accelerated store closures announced last week by Blockbuster “bodes well” for Redbox customers and would contribute to a 3.4% increase in 2010 revenue per kiosk.

Wold expects Redbox to add 8,500 new kiosks in FY 2010, which is similar to 2009.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/financial/analyst-raises-earnings-outlook-redbox-parent-coinstar-17100

...and not a word about hdtv software media...

...and not a word about hdtv software media...

I had no idea that Blu-ray was so irrelevant to the studios, Blockbuster, Redbox and Netflix. :rolleyes:

I had no idea that Blu-ray was so irrelevant to the studios, Blockbuster, Redbox and Netflix. :rolleyes:
Only to RB, my friend.:rolleyes:

Only to RB, my friend.:rolleyes:

I would not concede that as Redbox is not only renting Blu-ray, but they are the fastest growing rental outlet of physical media (projected to be 14% by EOY).

But I do think people should read the stories and see for themselves that it is about Redbox, Blockbuster, Netflix and the studios.

I would not concede that as Redbox is not only renting Blu-ray, but they are the fastest growing rental outlet of physical media (projected to be 14% by EOY).

But I do think people should read the stories and see for themselves that it is about Redbox, Blockbuster, Netflix and the studios.
How much of that 14% is from Hd software media?

How much of that 14% is from Hd software media?

Unless you believe Blu-ray is stillborn, it will have a similar share to the rest of the market.

How much of that 14% is from Hd software media?

As of now 0.14%

Just viewed the RB site...not even a mention of BD there.

Just viewed the RB site...not even a mention of BD there.Kiosks seem to be aimed at the DVD rental market. I can not find anything Blu-ray at the Blockbuster Express site. It appears that Redbox and Blockbuster Express figures most Blu-ray owners know that a better deal can be had through Blockbuster Online or Netflix.

Interesting concept.

Let's look at what we know.

Physical Media sell-through is declining. Rental is growing.

Within the physical media rental market there are significant changes afoot.

First off is the closure of Blockbuster retail locations. Blockbuster recently announced that they are closing 20% of their retail locations (810-960 out of 4356 locations). They also discussed in their earnings that they are not looking to invest in growing their DVD-by-mail service. They are partnering with NEC to significantly grow their kiosk presence.

Netflix does provide Blu-ray rentals, but at a premium over DVD. I know there was discussion of people dropping Netflix because of that. The price increase is also a natural deterrent to people just adding Blu-ray to their Netflix package (let's say people with PS3s who might like BDs to rent, but do not find it worth the extra cost).

Next is Redbox's meteoric growth. The market is already split at 19% for kiosks, 36% at rent-by-mail and 45% at traditional mail outlets. The record growth of both Netflix and Redbox combined with the contraction of Blockbuster (and other store outlets) means an ever shrinking market for traditional store outlets.


Now if people really believe that Redbox is not in the Blu-ray rental market and will not be in the immediate future, then it raises some very significant challenges for Blu-ray rental growth. Quite frankly, without Redbox support Blu-ray growth will be limited to the declining market of traditional store outlets and to the price throttled Netflix offering.

But if you cut a market in 4 places, how many peices do you really have for growth.

This issue of BD's in kiosks . . . it may be that the kiosk owners do not feel that the penetration of BD players has reached the point where it will be profitable for them to stock BD's in their kiosks. When the penetration rises, They will.

This issue of BD's in kiosks . . . it may be that the kiosk owners do not feel that the penetration of BD players has reached the point where it will be profitable for them to stock BD's in their kiosks. When the penetration rises, They will.
Til then, perhaps this thread needs to be moved appropriately to the DVD forum as it is the primary media used for the kiosks. :)

Til then, perhaps this thread needs to be moved appropriately to the DVD forum as it is the primary media used for the kiosks. :)

But we have not heard a decision from the three studios in question about how they are going to deal with new agreements with Netflix and BBi On Line which do rent BD's and can be affected by studio demands.

If the thread really bothers you - just ignore it. Other threads may interest you instead.

But we have not heard a decision from the three studios in question about how they are going to deal with new agreements with Netflix and BBi On Line which do rent BD's and can be affected by studio demands.

If the thread really bothers you - just ignore it. Other threads may interest you instead.
And 200 posts in this thread have nothing to do with the OP.
This thread has ran its course and is now a diversion to discuss DVD rentals and "other" deals in the HD media forum.

And using your own words, there are other forums that discuss your media of choice. ;)

Seems like you've been around long enough to know where to put a thread, though I'm sure you felt it would get more eyeballs here,

This forum is about HD media not dvd distribution which at this point in time is what red box is.

Lets face it HD media is still a hobby for a few, not mainstream by any stretch, so just posting sh!t for posting sakes seems silly, the numbers don't lie.