Hi,

I currently own a Kuro plasma and I am wondering if there any projector that can match is black level?

How the black level of the RS20 compare to the Kuro?

Thanks,

Eric

search function.

search function.

If everyone on this forum was kind like you there will be no forum at all...

Thanks anyway.

Eric

No fp can match that'They do not have to.Can your Kuro throw a 100in to 150in image that looks better tha most cinemas.No'but most fp's can.BOB

If everyone on this forum was kind like you there will be no forum at all...

Thanks anyway.

Eric

there was numerous threads asking the same thing. Like one once a week...

No fp can match that'They do not have to.Can your Kuro throw a 100in to 150in image that looks better tha most cinemas.No'but most fp's can.BOB

Thanks.

Did someone have measured the FL of the black level for the JVC and the Kuro?

Is the JVC close to the kuro or really the Kuro is in another league?

Eric

If everyone on this forum was kind like you there will be no forum at all...

If people would search and post to existing threads the forum would be a lot less cluttered.

Right on the first page of the forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1168406&highlight=kuro

And more from the first page of search results:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1151838&highlight=kuro
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1167265&highlight=kuro
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1149658&highlight=kuro

thanks stranger89 http://www.*************/img/X/P.jpg

If everyone on this forum was kind like you there will be no forum at all...

Thanks anyway.

Eric

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6BTcEwtmZo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6BTcEwtmZo

:)

Ok thanks everyone for all the good links... I found useful information. :)

The only thing I cannot find is my last question...



Did someone have measured the FL of the black level for the JVC and the Kuro?

Is the JVC close to the kuro or really the Kuro is in another league?

Eric

Forum members please just answer the question if you have the answer :)


Black levels...

The RS20 can have better "absolute" black then the kuro (without bias lighting)


The RS20 will not have better Ansi contrast (not even close)

Do you know the bifference of what I am posting?


Will the picture quality be as good on the rs20? depends on what you are looking for.

Forum members please just answer the question if you have the answer :)


Black levels...

The RS20 can have better "absolute" black then the kuro (without bias lighting)


The RS20 will not have better Ansi contrast (not even close)

Do you know the bifference of what I am posting?

If I understand correctly, The RS20 on a full black image will be blacker than the Kuro... But when the image have black and white in the same image it is a different story...

Is that true?

Yes!

The Kuro is amazing from an on/off and Ansi contrast standpoint.

The RS20 is amazing from an on/off but Ansi is on the low end of projectors.

Great example:

Watch any 2.35:1 movie on the Kuro and the black bars on top and bottom of the screen look pure black!

Same situation on the RS20 with a 1.78:1 screen, and the bars on top and bottom will not look black. They will not disappear into the boarders of the screen.

Forum members please just answer the question if you have the answer :)

That's the problem, all the OP's questions have been discussed/answered a number of times already. There's another thread on the front page of this very sub-forum discussing exactly the same topic (
high end projector vs kuro 60 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1168406)), and a number of member (some from this very thread) have taken the time to respond in that thread already. Now there's another thread with some of the same questions and some of the same answers. It's frustrating to get asked the same question over and over again, especially when another thread already answers the same questions and is sitting on the first page.

I love my RS20 but the Kuro is the better display inch-for-inch.

Still, all critical viewing gets done on the RS20 because even 60" is too small a screen.

Watch any 2.35:1 movie on the Kuro and the black bars on top and bottom of the screen look pure black!.

Maybe with the lights on in the room.

Maybe with the lights on in the room.


Lawguy, if you don't already get some Bias lighting on your kuro... its the greatest enhancement for the Kuro ever.

Everything looks pure black, even on a full black screen!

Lawguy, if you don't already get some Bias lighting on your kuro... its the greatest enhancement for the Kuro ever.

Everything looks pure black, even on a full black screen!

I'm sure but I mostly use it in the day.

If I understand correctly, The RS20 on a full black image will be blacker than the Kuro... But when the image have black and white in the same image it is a different story...

Is that true?

SOWK is simplifying.

Maybe with regards to absolute black. Projectors don't have an absolute black level because it depends on the size of the screen and the screen gain (and we are assuming no ambient light).

Those are variables that don't change on a TV.

This is why on/off is the relevant spec, and black level is particularly misleading or meaningless when discussing a front projector because it will vary in absolute, while the on/off CR will remain fixed.

This all being said, two advantages of the JVC are image size (a very big advantage) and the potential for near perfect color accuracy, something not possible with a Kuro unless you add an outboard processor.

I can understand using something like the Kuro in a smaller room, or where you don't really have the ability to do a large screen, but if you're into watching films, a larger screen is hugely advantageous, and the black levels that the on/off CR of the JVC affords you are excellent.

The ANSI CR of the JVC is good, but it won't match a Kuro, or something like a good DLP front projector.

You should try to see a properly setup JVC and view yourself. I came from a CRT projector which hits absolute blacks better than the JVC, comparable or better than a Kuro, and I am very satisfied with the JVC overall, and I didn't change screen size. If you are coming from a Kuro, and increasing screen size to a projection system, this will be the biggest change, and it will be a hugely beneficial one.

The other thing worth mentioning is that the Kuro is so sharp and contrasty that it can look artificial, especially with film based sources. I think it is distorting sources in some way because of its properties. I really prefer the RS20 for movies because of this.

Yes!

The Kuro is amazing from an on/off and Ansi contrast standpoint.

The RS20 is amazing from an on/off but Ansi is on the low end of projectors.

Great example:

Watch any 2.35:1 movie on the Kuro and the black bars on top and bottom of the screen look pure black!

Same situation on the RS20 with a 1.78:1 screen, and the bars on top and bottom will not look black. They will not disappear into the boarders of the screen.

While the Kuro may not have bars that are absolutely jet black, they are much blacker than the RS20. In my opinion this is the only time RS-20 ANSI contrast has any real meaning. Witness the fact that if you mask the black bars, when watching a 'scope movie on a 16x9 screen, you don't really notice the low ANSI contrast. The only thing that calls your attention to ANSI is when you have a bright scene on a 'scope film. Then, the less than black bars call attention to themselves. But if you don't see them, through masking, ANSI is largely moot.

While the Kuro may not have bars that are absolutely jet black, they are much blacker than the RS20. In my opinion this is the only time RS-20 ANSI contrast has any real meaning. Witness the fact that if you mask the black bars, when watching a 'scope movie on a 16x9 screen, you don't really notice the low ANSI contrast. The only thing that calls your attention to ANSI is when you have a bright scene on a 'scope film. Then, the less than black bars call attention to themselves. But if you don't see them, through masking, ANSI is largely moot.

So you don't care about the contrast of the image itself... :confused: :rolleyes:

But if you don't see them, through masking, ANSI is largely moot.

To each his own. Ansi contrast to me is just as important as on/off.

I know not many would agree with me, but when I bring up a 100% white window the surrounding "black" had better be black to my eyes, and not gray!

I may even go far enough to say with a 50% white window. :)

and in a perfect world Video level 17 white window :) (although this is more on/off vs ansi)

It's a known fact that repetitive posts are going to happen on AVS. If it's bothersome then simply ignore the thread and move on. It's not like the $3,000 USD MSRP and Up section has very high activity(at least compared to the TV forums). Besides, why are non-moderators so concerned about cleaning up the place as if they owned it?

Is Kuro plasma still available for sale anywhere?

The Kuro has killer ANSI and is brighter as well. Minimum luminance on the RS20 is lower but it won't look blacker in most cases than a Kuro. Having said that the RS20 looks good enough to me (I have an Pioneer FPJ1 ala RS2 clone) to move away from a Kuro when a 60" screen is the biggest that you are going to get from a Kuro. It was a difficult choice for me to make at the time as I loved my 6020 but I wouldn't go back now! ;)

I love my RS20 but the Kuro is the better display inch-for-inch.

I agree. The Kuro has better PQ.

To the OP.....Can you get a better FP image than a Kuro? You certainly can, but you will need to be prepared to spend significantly more than the price of an RS20.

Now, having said the Kuro has a better image, there's the issue of size and immersion to be considered. No matter how close to the Kuro you sit, even if you have a larger viewing angle than your projector, Your brain can never be fooled into thinking its anything other than a small screen. This is something that the Kuros better image cannot equal or make up for.

Think on this......Imagine someone invites you to come and experience thier new "cinema room". You walk in and there sits......... a freakin' TV.

Thats not a home cinema, that's a flaccid, emasculated substitute, that is guaranteed to induce erectile dysfunction in its owner. Man up and get a "genuine" big screen. Its all about the inches baby, and not any of that diagonal BS either. We measure straight across.

I've got another questions...

How the motion blur compare between the Kuro and the RS20?

I own a Kuro and the motion handling is really good...

I heard different report on the RS20... Some say is good some say it is horrible...

Eric

Depends who you ask...

You will need to see one for yourself.

Any of the RS series will be about the same.

I noticed motion blur on my Pioneer FPJ1 that I did not notice on my Kuro. There are trade offs going with FP. I went through the same process back in March and when the fire sales went on the Pioneer I jumped (after demoing an RS20). After you see a setup in your own home I think you'll be impressed enough to live with some flaws. You might not get a Kuro image but the image is still quite impressive and the immersion with a 60" Kuro just won't cut it any more. I went with an HP Dalite screen (mounted to give ~1.7 gain) and it gives closer to plasma type brightness and black levels are still very good.

Depends who you ask...

You will need to see one for yourself.

Any of the RS series will be about the same.


Yes.. I think a demo is the next logical step...

Thanks,

Eric

So you don't care about the contrast of the image itself... :confused: :rolleyes:

If this is your conclusion from my post I can't help you.

If this is your conclusion from my post I can't help you.

You said the black bars were the only thing of meaning with the RS20's ANSI CR. I disagree. It's definitely improvable in the images, and makes a visual difference. That's not to say it's not got good ANSI CR, but the black bars are definitely not the only place you see the impact of ANSI CR!

I agree. The Kuro has better PQ.

To the OP.....Can you get a better FP image than a Kuro? You certainly can, but you will need to be prepared to spend significantly more than the price of an RS20.

Now, having said the Kuro has a better image, there's the issue of size and immersion to be considered. No matter how close to the Kuro you sit, even if you have a larger viewing angle than your projector, Your brain can never be fooled into thinking its anything other than a small screen. This is something that the Kuros better image cannot equal or make up for.

Think on this......Imagine someone invites you to come and experience thier new "cinema room". You walk in and there sits......... a freakin' TV.

Thats not a home cinema, that's a flaccid, emasculated substitute, that is guaranteed to induce erectile dysfunction in its owner. Man up and get a "genuine" big screen. Its all about the inches baby, and not any of that diagonal BS either. We measure straight across.

Coldmachine,
Please provide a few examples of projectors that you consider will present a FP image that will be better than a Kuro. Please start with the least expensive model that could start to approach the Kuro benchmark.

Thanks for your help.

The original question deserves a honest answer but I think in some ways its comparing apples to oranges. We could ask another question, what has better black levels, the Kuros or the theater down the street from me. I think the answer would be the Kuros but most of us would would prefer to go to the theater assuming the picture is focused, people arent talking, the sound is good, the floors arent sticky and no child is crying:)

The original question deserves a honest answer but I think in some ways its comparing apples to oranges. We could ask another question, what has better black levels, the Kuros or the theater down the street from me. I think the answer would be the Kuros but most of us would would prefer to go to the theater assuming the picture is focused, people arent talking, the sound is good, the floors arent sticky and no child is crying:)

Is an encrypted way of saying the Kuro won't give you a theatrical type experience? Both the Kuro and the RS20 have much better contrast and black levels than any theater we have around here. With the RS20 I'll never set foot in a theater again. If I had the Elite 151, I still might for the big spectaculars.

The original question deserves a honest answer but I think in some ways its comparing apples to oranges. We could ask another question, what has better black levels, the Kuros or the theater down the street from me. I think the answer would be the Kuros but most of us would would prefer to go to the theater assuming the picture is focused, people arent talking, the sound is good, the floors arent sticky and no child is crying:)

I'd rather watch a Kuro than the theater down the street but I'd rather watch my Pioneer FPJ1 than either. ;)

Eric >>> Here's an answer, as close as i could find, to your original question :
As tested by Home Theater Magazine, after calibration for the best contrast ratio possible, the Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-111FD had a measured black level of 0.001 ft-L "assuming absolute meter accuracy at its minimum sensitivity" (in other words, the measured black level is so low that it is at very threshold of the meter's published specs for accuracy !), and a peak white output of 37 ft-L, for a full-on/full-off contrast ratio of 37,000:1.
The magazine never tested the JVC RS20, but the current JVC HD750 displayed a measured black level of 0.00072 ft-L on an 80 inch-wide 1.3 gain Stewart StudioTek 130 screen, which is very slightly less than the 0.001 ft-L of the Pioneer Kuro, and a peak white output of 13.22 ft-L, for a full-on/full-off contrast ratio of 18,362:1. Mind you that such figure was achieved with the lamp in its "normal lamp mode"...
For comparison's sake, the JVC HD350 measured at 0.0012 ft-L (very slightly more than the Kuro's 0.001 ft-L) and a peak white output of 19.6 ft-L, for a full-on/full-off contrast ratio of 16,558:1, again, with the lamp set for "normal lamp mode"; However, changing the lamp to its "high lamp mode" raised the HD350 black level slightly to 0.0018 ft-L and its peak white output to 28.74 ft-L (!!!), for a full-on/full-off contrast ratio of 16,211:1.
Now, any front projector that is capable of combining such low figure for black level while at the same time capable of achieving onscreen brightness levels of almost 29 ft-L, which is a figure usually associated with calibrated plasma displays and LCDs screens, is nothing short of one-of-a-kind "electronic wonder" in my book ! I imagine that the JVC HD350 tested by the magazine had a brand-new lamp.
Also, as someone else posted on this thread, these figures are for full-on/full-off contrast ratios, whereas concerning ANSI contrast ratios expect the Kuros to be up there in the 8,000:1 and the JVC units at around 350:1...
Hope this was of some help to your question >>> Marcos

I'd rather watch a Kuro than the theater down the street but I'd rather watch my Pioneer FPJ1 than either.

As much as I love watching a movie on my RS20, I still love to go a big theater and interact with an audience. I love to watch a comedy where everyone is laughing in the theater. To me it makes the movie even funnier. While their are many things that can annoy you at the theater, it can be a great experience.

And yes I dont think the Kuro gives you a theatrical experience. Its too small which is why if I want a theatrical experience I either use my 120 wide screen or go to the theater. Its not a knock on the Kuro. I have one and I love it and it has its purpose but its not the theater

Eric >>> Here's an answer, as close as i could find, to your original question :
As tested by Home Theater Magazine, after calibration for the best contrast ratio possible, the Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-111FD had a measured black level of 0.001 ft-L "assuming absolute meter accuracy at its minimum sensitivity" (in other words, the measured black level is so low that it is at very threshold of the meter's published specs for accuracy !), and a peak white output of 37 ft-L, for a full-on/full-off contrast ratio of 37,000:1.
The magazine never tested the JVC RS20, but the current JVC HD750 displayed a measured black level of 0.00072 ft-L on an 80 inch-wide 1.3 gain Stewart StudioTek 130 screen, which is very slightly less than the 0.001 ft-L of the Pioneer Kuro, and a peak white output of 13.22 ft-L, for a full-on/full-off contrast ratio of 18,362:1. Mind you that such figure was achieved with the lamp in its "normal lamp mode"...
For comparison's sake, the JVC HD350 measured at 0.0012 ft-L (very slightly more than the Kuro's 0.001 ft-L) and a peak white output of 19.6 ft-L, for a full-on/full-off contrast ratio of 16,558:1, again, with the lamp set for "normal lamp mode"; However, changing the lamp to its "high lamp mode" raised the HD350 black level slightly to 0.0018 ft-L and its peak white output to 28.74 ft-L (!!!), for a full-on/full-off contrast ratio of 16,211:1.
Now, any front projector that is capable of combining such low figure for black level while at the same time capable of achieving onscreen brightness levels of almost 29 ft-L, which is a figure usually associated with calibrated plasma displays and LCDs screens, is nothing short of one-of-a-kind "electronic wonder" in my book ! I imagine that the JVC HD350 tested by the magazine had a brand-new lamp.
Also, as someone else posted on this thread, these figures are for full-on/full-off contrast ratios, whereas concerning ANSI contrast ratios expect the Kuros to be up there in the 8,000:1 and the JVC units at around 350:1...
Hope this was of some help to your question >>> Marcos

Thanks Marcos!

Very interesting post...

Eric

So far so good... Here another question :

Kuro vs RS20 with real movie material...

When you watch a movie like the Matrix or Star Wars did the RS20 black look black to your eyes? (EX: Opening seen in Star Wars III... How it look?)

On my Kuro those movie really shine... I am a fan of science fiction movie and black in science fiction movie are really important!

Thanks to all for you help,

Eric

So far so good... Here another question :

Kuro vs RS20 with real movie material...

When you watch a movie like the Matrix or Star Wars did the RS20 black look black to your eyes? (EX: Opening seen in Star Wars III... How it look?)

On my Kuro those movie really shine... I am a fan of science fiction movie and black in science fiction movie are really important!

Thanks to all for you help,

Eric


Anyone ?

I'm still waiting for an answer "Coldmachine".

Quote ".....Can you get a better FP image than a Kuro? You certainly can, but you will need to be prepared to spend significantly more than the price of an RS20."

Thanks

Front projector wont beat a 82in rear projection dlp, let alone a kuro. Size wise sure, but don't claim it's like a big plasma.

So far so good... Here another question :

Kuro vs RS20 with real movie material...

When you watch a movie like the Matrix or Star Wars did the RS20 black look black to your eyes? (EX: Opening seen in Star Wars III... How it look?)

On my Kuro those movie really shine... I am a fan of science fiction movie and black in science fiction movie are really important!

Thanks to all for you help,

Eric

Those scenes aren't going to look the same as your Kuro. Mind you they will look good but it's not the same. I would expect that if your Kuro were 100" those scenes would show black levels glowing more than they would on a 60" screen. IMO there's no current display out there that's not going to take a back seat to a Kuro in a darkened room.

But if you want to go large the JVCs are going to be your best bet. Like I said, I said no to FP late last year and while my RS2 clone isn't quite as good as the RS20 and it's definitely no Kuro it still has great contrast and as great as my Kuro looked I sold it in favor of the Pioneer clone for size.

You really need to see a demo to get a good idea of how they look.

Front projector wont beat a 82in rear projection dlp, let alone a kuro. Size wise sure, but don't claim it's like a big plasma.

Other than in color accuracy, black level, contrast, geometry, processing and screen uniformaty, I agree that an RS-20 won't beat the big Mits DLP RPTV. If you have doubts, check the review on C-Net.

So far so good... Here another question :

Kuro vs RS20 with real movie material...

When you watch a movie like the Matrix or Star Wars did the RS20 black look black to your eyes? (EX: Opening seen in Star Wars III... How it look?)

On my Kuro those movie really shine... I am a fan of science fiction movie and black in science fiction movie are really important!

Thanks to all for you help,

Eric

Answering your question is complicated because the screen and the room have a big impact. In order to obtain maximum contrast with the RS-20 you need a jet black room with no refective surfaces or ambiant light. While it isn't necessary to go to that extreme to obtain an excellent image, it is if you want the maximum. With the right conditions, the RS-20 can get real close to the Kuro when projecting an low light image. Where the Kuro has the advantage is when the image has portions that are very dark and very bright at the same time. This is when ANSI contrast is important. But if you can place the RS-20 in a "cave" and use the right screen, the RS-20 is no slouch even compared to the Kuro.

The BD of 2001 is absolutely jaw dropping on my RS-20. While the space scenes will look a little better on the Kuro, the difference is not huge and is more than offset by the greater scale. The big science fiction movies are important to me as well, that is one of the reasons I went with the RS-20. The black level of my DLP RPTV sucked. The Kuro was simply to small to be immersive. To me, if you like movies and have the appropriate room available, the RS-20 is very hard to beat.

When 8' wide screen has become nearly the min standard for hometheater talking about 50" plasma for HT setting sounds kind of funny.
Purpose of HT is expeience and I doubt a 50" can replicate the same. Unless forced by other factors there is no substitude for large projected screen set up. The quality issue is irrevelant imo as most Pj's now can do pretty good job of throwing a believeable picture.
Once watched some movies on large screen there is no going back and Kuro becomes inadequate all the sudden for the most part imo.

So far so good... Here another question :

Kuro vs RS20 with real movie material...

When you watch a movie like the Matrix or Star Wars did the RS20 black look black to your eyes? (EX: Opening seen in Star Wars III... How it look?)

On my Kuro those movie really shine... I am a fan of science fiction movie and black in science fiction movie are really important!

Thanks to all for you help,

Eric

Yes. And again, I am coming from CRT, so utterly black is my benchmark. It's not utterly black, but it holds a blackout for several seconds, and is eminently satisfying.

"Coldmachine". I'm calling you out.

Quote ".....Can you get a better FP image than a Kuro? You certainly can, but you will need to be prepared to spend significantly more than the price of an RS20."

You have made this statment in several other threads. I have yet to see you list anything. Still waiting.

Thanks

Answering your question is complicated because the screen and the room have a big impact. In order to obtain maximum contrast with the RS-20 you need a jet black room with no refective surfaces or ambiant light. While it isn't necessary to go to that extreme to obtain an excellent image, it is if you want the maximum.

I think this is key to the whole question. It doesn't matter how good the display device is, if it is tainted by its surroundings.

Michael