I am trying to decide on a affordable calibration tool for my dedicated Home Theatre projector a Panasonic AE3000 and my other displays in my house Sharp LC46D92U televisions. They are all used for HDTV, HD Gaming (360 & PS3) and Bluray. I have looked into the Spyder3TV package and it is quite cost effective. Are there other options that are affordable ($500.00 or less) that would be a better choice. Thanks for the help.

I am trying to decide on a affordable calibration tool for my dedicated Home Theatre projector a Panasonic AE3000 and my other displays in my house Sharp LC46D92U televisions. They are all used for HDTV, HD Gaming (360 & PS3) and Bluray. I have looked into the Spyder3TV package and it is quite cost effective. Are there other options that are affordable ($500.00 or less) that would be a better choice. Thanks for the help.

Yes.

http://www.chromapure.com

is one.

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/index_en.php

is another.

http://www.spectracal.com

is yet another.

The eye one LT meter is under $150, and HCFR software is free. You would only need test patterns which are also free.http://www.amazon.com/Xrite-EODLT-X-Rite-Eye-One-Display/dp/B000CR78CE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250541907&sr=8-3
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=983943
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

I'm not familar with your TV, but your projector does not have a full color managment system, so I'm not sure how much calibrating you can do. This link lists equipment with full CMS's.http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536

Also there is a dummies' guide that outlines how to perform a calibration. http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

I used the above equipment and software and really enjoyed calibrating by Epson 6500. The picture was noticeable better. It is also fun to tune up the calibration as the bulb ages.

The eye one LT meter is under $150, and HCFR software is free. You would only need test patterns which are also free

X2. This is the best deal IMO. Eye one LT and HCFR, then download the AVSHD REC.709 test disc from this site. The AVSHD download lets you burn Blu-ray patterns to a regular DVD and use that for test patterns. Best disc I have seen yet.

Dan

As always you guys are the best. I think I'm going to give the EyeOne Display LT a shot using my HD Video Essentials as the source material. Thanks again.

X2. This is the best deal IMO.How do you know?

IMO = In My Opinion, Tom. For less than $150 total for the meter, software and calibration disc, it's the best deal IMO.

Dan

IMO = In My Opinion, Tom. For less than $150 total for the meter, software and calibration disc, it's the best deal IMO.
Dan: I understood that you were only offering an opinion. What I meant to ask was whether you had had enough experience with the alternatives to permit you to offer an informed opinion. You can't possibly know what the "best" deal is until you have some reasonably clear idea of how good a deal the alternatives are.

Dan: I understood that you were only offering an opinion. What I meant to ask was whether you had had enough experience with the alternatives to permit you to offer an informed opinion. You can't possibly know what the "best" deal is until you have some reasonably clear idea of how good a deal the alternatives are.

This is the age of online price comparison - you should know that the best deal is always the cheapest :)........... This unfortunately drives good companies out of business and then we all go complaining about the bad quality and customer service available. I think there is a connection there.....

This is the age of online price comparison - you should know that the best deal is always the cheapest :)........... This unfortunately drives good companies out of business and then we all go complaining about the bad quality and customer service available. I think there is a connection there.....I am as price sensitive as the next guy, but if price is the ONLY consideration, then the Spyder3TV package that the poster originally mentioned is the "best".

Since the original poster said he was interested in the best package under $500, I assumed that anything under that limit would be subject to a price/performance analysis, and THAT requires some reasonable familiarity with the available options.

My guess is that what Dan meant to say is that this is a package I have used, really like, and can recommend.

@Tom, I suppose the meters you suggested are all not able to do a good job for CMS work, is that right? If so, what would be your suggestion for a good (and not too expensive) CMS capable meter? Thanks!

Dan: I understood that you were only offering an opinion. What I meant to ask was whether you had had enough experience with the alternatives to permit you to offer an informed opinion. You can't possibly know what the "best" deal is until you have some reasonably clear idea of how good a deal the alternatives are.

Tom, I would be interested in your opinion of the products you mentioned. I went with the Eye-one and HFCR - this proved to be a very inexpensive way to go that apparently (I say apparently because I don't have experience with many different measuring devices and software ) was the best bang for the buck. I looked at the Spyder probes, but the consensus of opinion was that the eye-one was better. Your thoughts?

My guess is that what Dan meant to say is that this is a package I have used, really like, and can recommend.

Tom,

That would be true also.

In addition, I am basing my opinion on data you collected and have posted comparing less costly meters to reference meters like the i1pro. From my recollection, the Eye-one LT and D2 performed resonably well for color saturation and brightess for CMS calibration. Not perfect, but the results looked plenty good for me considering the cost delta between meters. The LT also has good low light response. I have been very happy with the results from my Eye-one LT on my Epson 1080UB LCD projector. Knowing that the OP has a LCD projector as well, with similar panels as mine, I feel very confident that he would be happy with the LT meter.

I fully agree that there are meters out there which are more accurate for all display types. i1pro for example, but this is out of his price range for the meter alone.

Also, I have used both Calman and HCFR and prefer HCFR because for me it was more intuative and plenty powerful. Now Calman is a great product, don't get me wrong.

So that is why I made my original post.

Dan

Dan: I agree with everything you write.

However, I listed 3 software options, not just HCFR and CalMan. I am being coy here for a reason.

Regarding the questions about meters, there is nothing special about CMS work that places special demands on a meter. Meters often have as hard or a harder time with white, though green is usually a problem as well.

However, for a software/meter combo under $500, you are pretty much limited to the D2. Unfortunately, the C5 performs measurably better than the D2, but with software this generally goes for just a little more than the poster's $ limit, though considerably less than an i1Pro.

Actually, for about 95% of the work I do, if I had to use just one sub-$1000 meter I would actually prefer the C5 over the i1Pro. Its color/white readings for conventional displays are usually just as good and its dynamic range is much, much better. You can actually measure gamma and contrast with the C5, which you can't do with an i1Pro.

So the C5 would do the job for CMS, too? I thought I read that for CMS you need a Spectrometer? Of course it would be great if the C5 could do CMS, too. That would make things so much easier!!

So the C5 would do the job for CMS, too? I thought I read that for CMS you need a Spectrometer? Of course it would be great if the C5 could do CMS, too. That would make things so much easier!!As I said, there is nothing special about measuring primary and secondary colors that isn't also true of measuring white. That is a myth I have seen repeated more times than I care to recall.

Of course, you will get more accurate results with a high-end 5nm spectro, but that is true of white as well as of color. I have not seen consistently better results with a low-end 10nm spectro like the i1Pro. Moreover, errors in white, all else being equal, are more perceptually objectionable than errors in pri/sec. colors. A 0.009 error in white is easily visible. A 0.009 error in green would be almost impossible to detect by eye.

The real variable is not whether you measure color or white, but the type of display. Some displays will give colorimeters, even good ones like the C5, fits.

Let me give an example. I calibrated a 800U Panasonic plasma last night. Compared to my reference spectro, the average error that the C5 returned measuring the primary and secondary colors was x0.006, y0.005. The biggest error of 0.010 was in the x-axis for green and yellow. The smallest error was 0.001 in the y-axis of red. The error for white? x0.007, y0.004. In other words, just about exactly the same as I got with color. This is typical of a wide range of displays.

Thank you.

Can I use the same equipment to calibrate a LCD rear projection and a projector?

Can I use the same equipment to calibrate a LCD rear projection and a projector?The type of display doesn't matter, though with a projector you have a choice of taking readings off the screen or directly from the lens. If you go the lens option you have to use a diffuser with the meter.

The type of display doesn't matter, though with a projector you have a choice of taking readings off the screen or directly from the lens. If you go the lens option you have to use a diffuser with the meter.

Thanks Tom. That said, any suggestions. I want to spend approximately $150 on equipment. I have been looking at the suggestions mentioned before. Anything else?

Also I am looking for a good disc to calibrate my HD audio. Any suggestions on that front? Thought this might not be the best thread for that topic. How about Avia and DVE?

I am trying to decide on a affordable calibration tool for my dedicated Home Theatre projector a Panasonic AE3000 and my other displays in my house Sharp LC46D92U televisions. They are all used for HDTV, HD Gaming (360 & PS3) and Bluray. I have looked into the Spyder3TV package and it is quite cost effective. Are there other options that are affordable ($500.00 or less) that would be a better choice. Thanks for the help.

Your best bet under $500 is the enhanced Spyder3 package from Calman. They offer calibrated Spyder3s that have been referenced to a more expensive meter. Each machine receives its own calibration table that allows for more accurate color metering. You also get the Calman software.

I compared my new enhanced S3 with an old S3 here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1170591). You can see that two different meters deviated from each other and from the enhanced S3. It helps if you start out knowing your meter is at least close to giving proper data.

The Spyder3TV package is $99. Where can I find the enhanced Sypder3 package?

http://www.curtpalme.com/Spyder3.shtm

Raising the limit higher, say $1000 - what is the best tool for LCOS or DLP? Is it i1Pro or chroma 5? I'd like to have something that I can use at least for couple of years without significant loss of accuracy.

I'm totaly disapointed with eye-one LT (at least with VW50), D2 performed bit better but still not very usefull.

I see Chromapure (www.chromapure.com) was mentioned as a possiblity as a inexpensive option. In looking at it, it seems rather new, but has everything I am looking for. Has anyone had experience with this software? I am considering a purchase, but wanted some opinions if there are any.

Chromapure is relatively new, but stems from a lot of research on calibration. I have looked over it and considered going to it as well. Definitely worth a strong consideration.

Chromapure is relatively new, but stems from a lot of research on calibration. I have looked over it and considered going to it as well. Definitely worth a strong consideration.

Never heard of it but just had a look at the demos on their site. They have some unique looking approaches. For instance I like the way the gamma and CMS #s will update in real time, taking continuous measurements and letting you easily see the dE and xyY data. HCFR cannot do this, I think.

Never heard of it but just had a look at the demos on their site. They have some unique looking approaches. For instance I like the way the gamma and CMS #s will update in real time, taking continuous measurements and letting you easily see the dE and xyY data. HCFR cannot do this, I think.Rick: No reason you should have. It is brand new.

Never heard of it but just had a look at the demos on their site. They have some unique looking approaches. For instance I like the way the gamma and CMS #s will update in real time, taking continuous measurements and letting you easily see the dE and xyY data. HCFR cannot do this, I think.

Yes exactly, some very unique approaches to calibration which can make it easier for the inexperienced calibrator, and even the seasoned pros.

Never heard of it but just had a look at the demos on their site. They have some unique looking approaches. For instance I like the way the gamma and CMS #s will update in real time, taking continuous measurements and letting you easily see the dE and xyY data. HCFR cannot do this, I think.

HCFR gives real time data in continious mode. (xyY, RBG, Color temp, ftL and cd/m2, but it doesn't give dE realtime.)

The Chromapure software looks very nice and user friendly, but I still think HCFR gives you everything you need for your own calibrations. If you are doing calibrations for others, then Calman is nice for it's good reporting functions to print out results for customers. Not sure if Chromapure has reporting tools like Calman.

Dan

HCFR gives real time data in continious mode. (xyY, RBG, Color temp, ftL and cd/m2, but it doesn't give dE realtime.)

The Chromapure software looks very nice and user friendly, but I still think HCFR gives you everything you need for your own calibrations. If you are doing calibrations for others, then Calman is nice for it's good reporting functions to print out results for customers. Not sure if Chromapure has reporting tools like Calman.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Regarding the continuous measurements and HCFR - What I am looking for is to have HCFR take continuous measurements and show me the measured gamma as I make the adjustment in the pj settings.

So for example while I tweak it measures 2.44, then 2.32, 2.18, 2.22 and then I hit my 2.22 target and move on. In HCFR I do not know of a way to see the measured gamma update in realtime like this.

In fact the only way I know how to get the measured gamma is to mouse over the point on the gamma graph. And further, the gamma graph only updates with a grayscale measurement.

Also I can't recall OTTOMH but I think the free measures graph does not show the gamma either.

Do you know of such a way to do this with HCFR? Thanks!

Chromapure is relatively new, but stems from a lot of research on calibration. I have looked over it and considered going to it as well. Definitely worth a strong consideration.

Thanks Jason. I'll try to report back once I have a review to share.

HCFR gives real time data in continious mode. (xyY, RBG, Color temp, ftL and cd/m2, but it doesn't give dE realtime.)In addition to not giving dE and gamma in real time, though it reports the raw Y data for color, it does not provide any information about how close or far the reported value is from the desired target either in real time or even as a static reading. It is left to user to calculate that manually, which is a PITA. It also does not calculate the proper Y targets for those with non-standard primaries. Finally, it also offers only a single dE formula, 1976 CIELUV. Anyway, those are my main beefs.

This is not to knock HCFR. I actually really like it (especially at the price!) and have used it extensively. It just doesn't offer a lot of features that I think are essential for a minimally effective calibration session. It also has some options regarding its calculation of dE that are annoyingly counterproductive, if you don't know any better and select them.

Not sure if Chromapure has reporting tools like Calman.It offers a comprehensive printable report. In fact, that is the subject of one of the demos on the site.

Well there we go. :) Tom, can I do custom reports with it? That is a important function for my personal needs...

Well there we go. :) Tom, can I do custom reports with it? That is a important function for my personal needs...In the current version the reports run off of Excel, which includes one printable page with all of the numbers and charts and also separate pages that focus on each chart individually. Eventually, we will move away from Excel as a reporting tool and have an integrated solution instead.

Hi Dan,

Regarding the continuous measurements and HCFR - What I am looking for is to have HCFR take continuous measurements and show me the measured gamma as I make the adjustment in the pj settings.

So for example while I tweak it measures 2.44, then 2.32, 2.18, 2.22 and then I hit my 2.22 target and move on. In HCFR I do not know of a way to see the measured gamma update in realtime like this.

In fact the only way I know how to get the measured gamma is to mouse over the point on the gamma graph. And further, the gamma graph only updates with a grayscale measurement.

Also I can't recall OTTOMH but I think the free measures graph does not show the gamma either.

Do you know of such a way to do this with HCFR? Thanks!

Yes, this is all true. I had to make a spreadsheet to determine my target Y values that I was trying to hit in order to achieve a given gamma. I enter my 100% Y value into the spreadsheet and the spreadsheet spits out the correct Y value for 10% grey, 20% grey... Then I go into HCFR and run continious mode and pull up the appropriate grey window and target the correct Y value for the gamma I'm trying to acheive. Not the most efficient method, but it is accurate.

In addition to not giving dE and gamma in real time, though it reports the raw Y data for color, it does not provide any information about how close or far the reported value is from the desired target either in real time or even as a static reading. It is left to user to calculate that manually, which is a PITA. It also does not calculate the proper Y targets for those with non-standard primaries. Finally, it also offers only a single dE formula, 1976 CIELUV. Anyway, those are my main beefs.

This is not to knock HCFR. I actually really like it (especially at the price!) and have used it extensively. It just doesn't offer a lot of features that I think are essential for a minimally effective calibration session. It also has some options regarding its calculation of dE that are annoyingly counterproductive, if you don't know any better and select them.

It offers a comprehensive printable report. In fact, that is the subject of one of the demos on the site.

Thanks for the info Tom. This is all true. Yeah, HCFR definately has it's limitations and quirks(I particularly don't like the saturation-luminance chart since it is very misleading). This all means the user needs to perform more work. You probably already know this, but if you click on the CIE Diagram tab in HCFR while in continuous mode it will show the x, y location of what it is currently measuring. Doesn't show you how far off Y is graphically, but it does show you how far off you are from the primary and secondary x, y locations in real time.

This is another reason I had to create my spreadsheet. I needed it to help me with the calculations that HCFR doesn't provide (like adjusting the secondaries for incorrect primaries).

Sounds like Chromapure has a lot to offer for the price. Another great option for those who want to perform calibrations.

Dan

In the current version the reports run off of Excel, which includes one printable page with all of the numbers and charts and also separate pages that focus on each chart individually. Eventually, we will move away from Excel as a reporting tool and have an integrated solution instead.

Awesome. Thanks!

Yes, this is all true. I had to make a spreadsheet to determine my target Y values that I was trying to hit in order to achieve a given gamma. I enter my 100% Y value into the spreadsheet and the spreadsheet spits out the correct Y value for 10% grey, 20% grey... Then I go into HCFR and run continious mode and pull up the appropriate grey window and target the correct Y value for the gamma I'm trying to acheive. Not the most efficient method, but it is accurate.


Right, exactly. This is what drew my eye in particular to Chromapure. I like the way that it is designed with the calibrator's task in mind. It knows what values are most important to us, and shows us in real time so we can dial it in without spreadsheets and so forth.

stereomandan - you have GOT to check out the spreadsheet that leDahu put together for dialing in gamma. You will love it. I know it was written specifically for the HD750/RS20 in mind but I imagine it would apply equally to any pj. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17060116#post17060116 .

Hopefully support for 5% steps will be added to Chromapure shortly, as grayscale and gamma in 5% steps (5%, 15% and 95% being most important, but the other 5% steps are important too) are pretty critical to me.

stereomandan - you have GOT to check out the spreadsheet that leDahu put together for dialing in gamma.


I checked out the gama tool and it is very nice. It is tailored the RS20 menu system for sure. Still a great tool for those with the JVC gamma control method.

Dan

Tom,

So I looked at the demos for the chromapure software, and I love the continuous gamma adjustment. VERY nice. The report tool is excellent as well.

A couple of comments: When setting the primary and secondaries in continuous mode, it would be very nice to have an idea which way the hue is off. Currently it just shows the % error. For instance, if calibrating red, is the Hue too far towards blue or green? No way to tell in the current software until you start moving your hue control one way or another. The red, green, blue bars in HCFR are really nice for this.

Overall, looks like a very user friendly, and capable piece of software.

Dan

A couple of comments: When setting the primary and secondaries in continuous mode, it would be very nice to have an idea which way the hue is off. Currently it just shows the % error. For instance, if calibrating red, is the Hue too far towards blue or green? No way to tell in the current software until you start moving your hue control one way or another. The red, green, blue bars in HCFR are really nice for this.

Overall, looks like a very user friendly, and capable piece of software.Dan: You can think of the color spectrum as a wheel divided into 6 sections, each representing a pri. or sec. color. Hue is measured as 360 degrees of arc around that wheel starting with red and moving counterclockwise until it passes magenta and arrives back at red.
(R-Y-G-C-B-M-R)

This means that any color with a + hue is shifted counterclockwise from where is should be (e.g., green is shifted towards cyan). Any color with a - hue means that it is shifted clockwise from where it should be (e.g., yellow is shifted towards red).

Having said that, I agree that it would be nice to have some visual cue on the screen that made this explicit when adjusting hue.

Dan: You can think of the color spectrum as a wheel divided into 6 sections, each representing a pri. or sec. color. Hue is measured as 360 degrees of arc around that wheel starting with red and moving counterclockwise until it passes magenta and arrives back at red.
(R-Y-G-C-B-M-R)

This means that any color with a + hue is shifted counterclockwise from where is should be (e.g., green is shifted towards cyan). Any color with a - hue means that it is shifted clockwise from where it should be (e.g., yellow is shifted towards red).

Having said that, I agree that it would be nice to have some visual cue on the screen that made this explicit when adjusting hue.

Tom,

Yeah, that's exactly how I've explained Saturation and Hue before. Saturation basically moves you in and out from the center of the pie, and Hue moves you clockwise of counterclockwise. I guess I didn't realize that a positive Hue error always indicates that you are off in the clockwise direction, so for red this would be a shift towards blue (from my example in my previous post) Good to know. It's just that there is no explicit indication in Chromapure which way you need to move hue to get close to 0% error.

Not really a software problem, just a "nice to have" feature.

Dan

Dan: You can think of the color spectrum as a wheel divided into 6 sections, each representing a pri. or sec. color. Hue is measured as 360 degrees of arc around that wheel starting with red and moving counterclockwise until it passes magenta and arrives back at red.
(R-Y-G-C-B-M-R)

This means that any color with a + hue is shifted counterclockwise from where is should be (e.g., green is shifted towards cyan). Any color with a - hue means that it is shifted clockwise from where it should be (e.g., yellow is shifted towards red).

Having said that, I agree that it would be nice to have some visual cue on the screen that made this explicit when adjusting hue.

Even some text hints like when adjusting Yellow it could say "(add more green)" or a graphical representation like a little up arrow over the green or something. Basically when I calibrate with HCFR I know why my xyY is but often I have to guess which way to move when adjusting the hue - then I see that my error got worse, and then I know I went the wrong way. Not a big deal but it would be nice to see right off the bat which direction to go.

Even some text hints like when adjusting Yellow it could say "(add more green)" or a graphical representation like a little up arrow over the green or something. Basically when I calibrate with HCFR I know why my xyY is but often I have to guess which way to move when adjusting the hue - then I see that my error got worse, and then I know I went the wrong way. Not a big deal but it would be nice to see right off the bat which direction to go.Agreed.

OK. I read enough and followed Claus and this group's inputs to order a i2 LT yesterday, so be ready for some real dumb questions coming this way soon.

I'll probably use HCFR for software and there is an AVS 709 which I could download - where is it? I've a Toshiba XA2. Is it for HD or BR? My BR player is coming in late September. I need to update my screen from DL HCCV 1.1g 92" to probably a DL HP 106" HP later on (before Xmas). I sit about 16' from the screen, the room is 13' X 18. The left side is window; wife agrees to replace the window treatment to dark and sound-absorbing curtain, again in September. My back is facing the LR entrance where lots of lights are coming in. I could watch NFL during late afternoon.

The PJ is the JVC RS2 from avs, on a coffee table. I found the color saturation a bit on the high side, but for NFL it looks as good as my Panny plasma. Coraline in 2D was spectacular in terms of depth. Blade Runner in HD has the best black and contrast that I've seen, and I've gone thru Sony HS51, 51A, Panny 900, Epson 400 and Mistu hc3000.

Yet I still want to tweak.

Cheers.

I found the 709 under Display Calibration.