Hey guys,

last year Ekki (Cine4Home) reported that they experienced a loss in contrast with many SXRD projectors over their lifetime. See here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15046844&postcount=222
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15047981&postcount=229

We measured a few SXRD projectors already, which are continously losing their native contrast. Worst case is a Pearl, which is already way below 1000:1 natively.
We do not know how many SXRD projectors will be affected. We measured like 5 of them in the last half year and all showed some degradation in contrast, color unformity and bright corners. This might not be representative (yet), so we do not make ane prognosis.

At that time there were some people suggesting Ekki to have some weird motives to invent false claims. Now I've stumbled across this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1168031

I'm fairly new to SXRD—I bought a Sony HW10 back in February and was quite pleased with it. (it wasn't perfect, but about as good as I could get for the money)

However, it seems to be ageing very badly.

[...]

Every hundred hours or so when I've gone to do a touch-up calibration it's needed increasingly larger white balance corrections. Some are now around 15/20 points rather than the 1/2 it was when I got it.
I have seen this type of degradation with many SXRD based products.
I suspect it is thermal degradation of an adheasive on the SXRD chip, but I do not know for certain. The hotter you get these units the quicker they seem to fail. Image director is not likely to be a permanent fix. It will only get worse over time.

It is one of the reasons I own a JVC product myself.
Now I'm *really* worried.

Does anybody have good Sony contacts and can ask whether this problem was taken care of in the meanwhile? I'd hate to buy e.g. a VW85 only to find out that it ages badly...

Thanks!

long time ago i had a sony qualia.
i sale it to one guy and about 1.5 years later i buy this pr. back from him.

when i sale the pr. the running time was 350 hours when i got it back it have
arround 1400 hours on.

i measure cr. befor i sale it and when i got it back.

the cr. on off drop by almost 50% the ansi cr. almost the same!

this is not only at lcos pr. or sony pr. every dlp or lcd pr. have to deal with
dust and dust beside some other issues are the biggest cr. killer as i had post here many times in the past.

thats is also "one" reason why i use a barco cinema unit as this is the only
cinema unit that have a closed light engine and therefore
dust not comes so easy inside.
all other cinema pr. have air gabs that is not as good as the barco design.

long time ago i had a sony qualia.
i sale it to one guy and about 1.5 years later i buy this pr. back from him.

when i sale the pr. the running time was 350 hours when i got it back it have
arround 1400 hours on.

i measure cr. befor i sale it and when i got it back.

the cr. on off drop by almost 50% the ansi cr. almost the same!
Ouch! And the loss of CR could not be explained by an aged lamp, I guess?

this is not only at lcos pr. or sony pr. every dlp or lcd pr. have to deal with
dust and dust beside some other issues are the biggest cr. killer as i had post here many times in the past.
But both Ekki/Cine4Home and umr, who are both highly respected persons on this forum, have stated that they haven't experienced such contrast loss with JVC projectors. Also I thought that dust was less of a problem for LCOS because you can cool LCOS from the backside while you can cool LCD only from the inside. So basically cooling LCD has to be done "inside" of the light path, while you can cool LCOS separately from the light path.

I have the VW60 and had the VW50. The VW50 (Pearl) had uniformity issues that started out as barely visible on a 100% stim full white pattern, but got significantly worse over a two year period, to the point that it was visible on normal projected video images. My VW60 on the other hand appears to not suffer from this degradation (so far). I don't think there are any consumer projectors out there that don't degrade over time in various ways to some degree.

@usualsuspects, have you done native contrast measurements when you received your VW60 and later after a couple of hundred hours?

Maybe all projectors do degrade somewhat. But the question is how much. Maybe 10% over a projector's whole lifetime would be acceptable. But 50% after a couple hundreds of hours? I sure hope that's not the norm.

If this was a big problem, don't you think there would have been many threads and posts by Sony owners complaining of lost contrast?

We know what happens when dust gets into a projector's light path: see LCD dust blobs. I don't recall a single case of a SXRD projector dust blob.

I can see cigarette smoke causing issues because it is finer than dust and might find its way into places it should not be. I would not recommend smoking around any projector (or at all for that matter).

@usualsuspects, have you done native contrast measurements when you received your VW60 and later after a couple of hundred hours?

I don't have an accurate enough probe to get reliable contrast measurements (anything under 20% stim is not reliable on my probe).

I wonder how much bulb issues and measuring devices limitations have a part to play in this. This argument could be made: Bulb dimming should not matter re contrast - the contrast should be exactly the same, just at a lower peak white level (assuming the projector itself has not degraded - AND - that the bulb has a linear dimming of the specra - this is clearly not the case for any bulb technology). My observation of the images thrown by the vw50 and vw60 is that subjective contrast improves dramatically as the bulb ages and gets dimmer. This appears to be due to the black floor being lowered. I wonder how accurate some of the measurements of the black level are. I know that this is one of the most difficult things to measure accurately - black level. There are so many reasons one could get different measurements at different times in a projectors life that unless you had a very controlled experiment I don't think you can draw too many conclusions from any single data point. Having said that, I think that it is logically (and empirically in the case of my vw50) obvious that any piece of equipment is going to change over time in some way.

Maybe all projectors do degrade somewhat. But the question is how much. Maybe 10% over a projector's whole lifetime would be acceptable. But 50% after a couple hundreds of hours? I sure hope that's not the norm.

My experience with the Sony SXRD projectors is that major image quality changes in short periods of time are all related to bulb issues. This has just been my experience with the projectors that I have owned. I hope it is clear that I am not trying to say that projector degradation does not occur with SXRD, I think it does, but getting a handle on "how much" is going to be very difficult - I don't think anyone is willing to do the controlled experiments on a sample of 10 or more of the same model projector that would be needed to give a reasonably scientific answer to this.

If this was a big problem, don't you think there would have been many threads and posts by Sony owners complaining of lost contrast?
Would there be? How many Sony owners measure native contrast multiple times (with exact enough measuring equipment) over the course of the lifetime of their projector? If native contrast slowly degrades, you might never notice. It's not like it jumps from 10k:1 to e.g. 3k:1 in one day.

Ok, so please everyone who has a Sony SXRD projector and who has measured native contrast (with good enough equipment) on the new projector and then later during the lifetime, please post here and let us know your measurement results. I'd be *VERY* happy if aging was not a problem.

I hope it is clear that I am not trying to say that projector degradation does not occur with SXRD, I think it does, but getting a handle on "how much" is going to be very difficult - I don't think anyone is willing to do the controlled experiments on a sample of 10 or more of the same model projector that would be needed to give a reasonably scientific answer to this.
This is exactly the reason why I'm worried: Both Ekki/Cine4Home and umr should have seen plenty of projectors (more than any normal consumer), and they surely have the right equipment (better than any normal consumer) to do reliable tests. So if they both share the same sentiment of SXRD being much more prone to aging compared to D-ILA, that does make me worry.

There have been questions about the aging of SXRD panels since the first RPTV hit the shelves, mostly questions related to the green glob (panel color continuity). This is the first time I've heard anything related to degredation of contrast, but I imagine this is the sort of thing consumers wouldn't notice so readily.

I have a Sony Pearl that still looks pretty good, but I haven't measured contrast.

This is exactly the reason why I'm worried: Both Ekki/Cine4Home and umr should have seen plenty of projectors (more than any normal consumer), and they surely have the right equipment (better than any normal consumer) to do reliable tests. So if they both share the same sentiment of SXRD being much more prone to aging compared to D-ILA, that does make me worry.

This just seems like classic FUD (fear, uncertainty doubt). There is no way to disprove it. 10 people can come forward and say that they have no problem. This doesn't prove anything to someone who is worried. The worried person fears that they will be affected even if the 10 unaffected people weren't. Where there are real problems, people tend to notice, especially anal people who frequent these forums.

This just seems like classic FUD (fear, uncertainty doubt). There is no way to disprove it. 10 people can come forward and say that they have no problem. This doesn't prove anything to someone who is worried. The worried person fears that they will be affected even if the 10 unaffected people weren't.
Let only 3 people come forward who made appropriate measurements over the lifetime of their SXRD projector, and say that they have measured no problem and I'll happily shut my mouth.

But evidence is quite the opposite right now: We have 2 totally unrelated experts (Ekki, umr) with access to many projectors who both say that they've experienced aging problems. Then we have 3 consumers (andrewfee, W.Mayer and usualsuspects's VW50) now who say they have experienced SXRD aging problems, too. We don't have a single consumer yet who has measured contrast over the lifetime of his projector and found no aging. Let's wait a few days, maybe some such consumers will show up.

Where there are real problems, people tend to notice, especially anal people who frequent these forums.
Would you notice a 50% drop in native contrast, if it happened very slowly over the course of a whole year? Even if you didn't expect it and didn't look for it?

Is DLP the most problem free then..... theoretically?

Forget rainbows.....just how well they age, dust issues, etc.?

"the cr. on off drop by almost 50% the ansi cr. almost the same!

this is not only at lcos pr. or sony pr. every dlp or lcd pr. have to deal with
dust"

I'd expect dust to affect ANSI but not on/off.

An aged lamp could lower CR because of changing shape of the "fireball" and how the light hits the reflector.

Is DLP the most problem free then..... theoretically?

Lots of threads out there about noisy or failed colorwheels on DLP. I would turn the question around and ask: what technology or manufacturer or model or whatever is issue-free over the life of the projector? Do I hear crickets?

Lots of threads out there about noisy or failed colorwheels on DLP. I would turn the question around and ask: what technology or manufacturer or model or whatever is issue-free over the life of the projector? Do I hear crickets?

Maybe this would lead one to feel that the best bet for now is to not invest too much in a PJ, and wait a few years and see how LED or the next big thing pans out as far as reliabilty/durability.

For example, buy a Panny 3000 (or something in that neighborhood), enjoy it, and know that you will be lurking for a more "reliable" replacement down the road.

its not the bulb as i change it to a new one after i make the measurments.

than with the new lamp i measured again with the same results
as with the old lamp.

the room where they put this qualia inside was a no smoking conference room.
so very good condition about clean air.

smoking can be a nightmare for most pr.as the partikels are very very small.

dust have more impact on ansi cr. than on on off cr. so seams there is some kind of decrease at polarizer filters i guess as well involved.

Would there be? How many Sony owners measure native contrast multiple times (with exact enough measuring equipment) over the course of the lifetime of their projector? ..I would like to see the data from Cine4Home and UMR on the projectors they have measured and the resulting contrast loss before I reached any conclusions.

IIRC from the original thread Cine4 cited a single VW50 where he had measured significant contrast drop. Has he update us with any additional measurements?

FWIW my (ex-wife's) VW100 just got a bulb change and calibration at 1,400 hours, still doing 3,000:1, 5,000:1 and 16,000:1 on/off. I know, I just paid the bulb replacement bill. :D

Does this mean I should take my VW200 and toss it in the garbage can? :D

Does this mean I should take my VW200 and toss it in the garbage can? :D

The simple answer is "yes".

To save you any effort, i would be happy to come and collect.
I will make sure it is recycled in an environmentally friendly way.

I will have to perform a few checks first though.
I would want to check that the SXRD panels really do deteriorate.
I would need two to three thousand hours to make sure.
After that, i would return the projector to you if it proves unfounded.
If it turns out that the panels have failed, i will bin it immediately!!! :D

IIRC from the original thread Cine4 cited a single VW50 where he had measured significant contrast drop.
Just look at the first post in this thread.

FWIW my (ex-wife's) VW100 just got a bulb change and calibration at 1,400 hours, still doing 3,000:1, 5,000:1 and 16,000:1 on/off. I know, I just paid the bulb replacement bill. :D
Sounds good. Are these the numbers you got when the projector was new, too?

Does this mean I should take my VW200 and toss it in the garbage can? :D
No, you're supposed to measure it and tell us whether there was a contrast loss... :)

Just look at the first post in this thread.
I see the same single VW50. Are there any others?
Sounds good. Are these the numbers you got when the projector was new, too?.Yes
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15049565&postcount=240

More than a year after the initial Cine4 postswhere is the evidence? Where are all the angry forum SXRD pj owners (Qualia, VW100, VW50, VW60, VW200, HW10, VW70, VW80) with contrasl loiss? Sony has likely sold > 100,000 SXRD pjs. There are likely > 1,000 forum SXRD owners?

I am with Lawguy on this one, sounds like FUD.

Interesting that a DLP projectors picture could degrade with age ( color wheel bearings going out is a seperate, repair-able issue IMO ). I thought DLP was fairly immune to these problems.

I see the same single VW50. Are there any others?
Yes
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15049565&postcount=240

More than a year after the initial Cine4 postswhere is the evidence? Where are all the angry forum SXRD pj owners (Qualia, VW100, VW50, VW60, VW200, HW10, VW70, VW80) with contrasl loiss? Sony has likely sold > 100,000 SXRD pjs. There are likely > 1,000 forum SXRD owners?

I am with Lawguy on this one, sounds like FUD.

I don't know... Even for "anal" people, it's hard to tell when it's degrading slowly over time. I've seen LCD projectors that were basically ready for the scrapyard due to REALLY bad uniformity issues caused by wear, where the customer never noticed a thing. You'd be amazed how much your picture can change gradually over time, without noticing a thing. Especially if it's a contrast issue and not bad uniformity. Bad uniformity you'd think people would notice, but I've seen VW50's that definately showed wear - or else they were delivered with unacceptable uniformity, I don't know since I don't have any statistics from the same PJ after different hours of usage. What I _can_ say is that subjectively, my experience has been that "older" (>12 months) SXRD and LCD projectors have quite often seemed worn to me.

Re: DLP, I agree with the post above, that while DLP as a technology does not have these kind of issues, not all DLP's are fault-free (well, no PJ's are fault-free). So if you want a projector that lasts a long time with constant good image quality, find a manufacturer that is known for providing exactly that. Personally, I would never buy any non-DLP projector without a JVC logo on it at the moment, but I do have to stress that this is a subjective opinion.

While this may very well be FUD in regard to SXRD front projectors, it seems not to be the case with the $13,000 SXRD based Qualia 006 70" rear projector. After about three years, many units have had the entire optical block replaced. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=498008 As I recall, there was no explanation from Sony, though they have lengthened the warranty period.

Interesting that a DLP projectors picture could degrade with age ( color wheel bearings going out is a seperate, repair-able issue IMO ). I thought DLP was fairly immune to these problems.


Who said DLP projectors degrade? The chip certainly doesn't. Not sure if the color wheel fades over time, but if it does I'd consider it to be very minor. I do agree that a failing color wheel is a seperate issue, and other than that I do believe that DLP's are basically immune to aging. Of course the chip itself could fail, but again, that's not the same as aging.

I have seen pictures of logos burned in to DLP chips - can't find the thread right now. Apparently DLP burn-in can happen, but is rare.

uve seen burn ins on DLP? i really dont think that can happen dude. I think youre wrong...

I see the same single VW50. Are there any others?
Yes
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15049565&postcount=240

More than a year after the initial Cine4 postswhere is the evidence? Where are all the angry forum SXRD pj owners (Qualia, VW100, VW50, VW60, VW200, HW10, VW70, VW80) with contrasl loiss? Sony has likely sold > 100,000 SXRD pjs. There are likely > 1,000 forum SXRD owners?

I am with Lawguy on this one, sounds like FUD.

Is there > 1,000 users with light meters that own SXRD on this forum?

How many of the > 100,000 owners have light meters?

A black level of 0.001 change to 0.002 will cut your contrast in half. Would you notice that difference if it was gradual? Probably not.

The 50 and 60" sxrd's that followed the Qualia 70" to market have had significant failure rates too. Sony is replacing the optical block under warranty. Two of 'em in my immediate family croaked. That's why I bought a JVC RS2 for my theater.

SOWK;

if thats the case, wouldnt you still at some point think : This PJ blows?

SOWK;

if thats the case, wouldnt you still at some point think : This PJ blows?

Not really, no/off contrast it not the only thing that makes a good picture.

I have a laptop display with only 600:1 on/off and I think the picture on it is superior to a lot of displays out there.

Yes it is a WUXGA 15.6" display, but provides an amazing picture.

Yeah, that was the reaction I expected, but there are pics of logos burned into dlp chips out there somewhere.


uve seen burn ins on DLP? i really dont think that can happen dude. I think youre wrong...

Yes it is a concern, and now that I know, I probably would not buy one till they fix it, but...

if I didn't know about it and couldn't measure it, even I may not have noticed it. And I am more anal then almost every forum member here about picture quality.

Is there > 1,000 users with light meters that own SXRD on this forum?

How many of the > 100,000 owners have light meters?

A black level of 0.001 change to 0.002 will cut your contrast in half. Would you notice that difference if it was gradual? Probably not.Those points are true for every single pj on the market. Replace SXRD with DILA|LCD|DLP.

This reminds me of the forum a few years ago when people were complaining about 40% light drop in a couple 100 hours with Ruby lamps. People started to measure their UHP lamps and guess what they found? :D

Anything is possible, I just want to see the data.

"Yeah, that was the reaction I expected, but there are pics of logos burned into dlp chips out there somewhere."

I'm skeptical as well; the DMD surfaces are metal.

Are you sure this wasn't something totally unrealistic like seeing testing w/a laser?

I'm skeptical as well; the DMD surfaces are metal.

Are you sure this wasn't something totally unrealistic like seeing testing w/a laser?

It was speculated that the problem was cause by "hinge memory" - not the surface of the mirrors. I should not have mentioned this without having a link to the thread (it was here on avsforum.com - just can't find it now). It looked and acted exactly like burn-in. This was a corporate DLP projector that had the companies logo burned into the DMD by the input signal, and the resulting projected image had a classic burn-in shadow image.

It was speculated that the problem was cause by "hinge memory" - not the surface of the mirrors. I should not have mentioned this without having a link to the thread (it was here on avsforum.com - just can't find it now). It looked and acted exactly like burn-in. This was a corporate DLP projector that had the companies logo burned into the DMD by the input signal, and the resulting projected image had a classic burn-in shadow image.

I remember this but recall that the imprint was not visible in the image, only on the chip itself.

Does this mean I should take my VW200 and toss it in the garbage can? :D


No, you're supposed to measure it and tell us whether there was a contrast loss... :)


It being the VW200?:D Couldn't resist.;)

I remember this but recall that the imprint was not visible in the image, only on the chip itself.

I recall that the burn-in was visible on the projected image as well.

Ah, that's plausible, thanks for the info.

It was speculated that the problem was cause by "hinge memory" - not the surface of the mirrors. I should not have mentioned this without having a link to the thread (it was here on avsforum.com - just can't find it now). It looked and acted exactly like burn-in. This was a corporate DLP projector that had the companies logo burned into the DMD by the input signal, and the resulting projected image had a classic burn-in shadow image.

It was speculated that the problem was cause by "hinge memory" - not the surface of the mirrors. I should not have mentioned this without having a link to the thread (it was here on avsforum.com - just can't find it now). It looked and acted exactly like burn-in. This was a corporate DLP projector that had the companies logo burned into the DMD by the input signal, and the resulting projected image had a classic burn-in shadow image.

This makes sense, however in practical terms at the most this makes DLP's 99,9% immune to aging instead of 100%, and in typical HT use it is unmeasurable, and I have never heard of anything like that from HT use. In contrast, I've had a customer complain about a Sanyo Z5 (LCD) that developed uniformity issues (yellow blotches) after 100 hours, had it replaced, the replacement did the same - and then he was told that it's normal and they only changed the first one to try to keep a customer happy. I've had people say the same about Sony VW50's after 500 hours of use, and I know of at least one that noticed uniformity issues on a JVC HD1 after 1000 hours. It's certainly not constrained to minor issues that noone will notice if it happens gradually. I agree that a contrast change to the whole picture wouldn't be noticed by many though.

Besides that, no LCD/SXRD/DILA has the uniformity of a typical DLP OOB anyway (maybe apart from a brand-new Meridian, wouldn't know about that).

Does this mean I should take my VW200 and toss it in the garbage can? :D

No, you're supposed to toss it in Wabo's garbage can.:p;)

Yeah, I agree that it is too rare to be an issue, and the example of failure of a DMD was an extreme case not likely to be seen in a home environment. My point was that every technology has failure modes and issues over the life of the projector. From reading many threads about the VW50's and VW60's and my own personal experience, I would say that it was common for VW50's to have ever worsening uniformity issues, but that this does not appear to be the common case for VW60's. Any significant uniformity problem is likely to show up as reduced average contrast (full black contaminated with color), and I speculate that this is what is causing the reduced contrast over time on many VW50's. However, as I said, it does not appear to be a significant issue with the VW60's - whatever was wrong with the VW50 appears to fixed on the VW60.

This makes sense, however in practical terms at the most this makes DLP's 99,9% immune to aging instead of 100%, and in typical HT use it is unmeasurable, and I have never heard of anything like that from HT use. In contrast, I've had a customer complain about a Sanyo Z5 (LCD) that developed uniformity issues (yellow blotches) after 100 hours, had it replaced, the replacement did the same - and then he was told that it's normal and they only changed the first one to try to keep a customer happy. I've had people say the same about Sony VW50's after 500 hours of use, and I know of at least one that noticed uniformity issues on a JVC HD1 after 1000 hours. It's certainly not constrained to minor issues that noone will notice if it happens gradually. I agree that a contrast change to the whole picture wouldn't be noticed by many though.

Besides that, no LCD/SXRD/DILA has the uniformity of a typical DLP OOB anyway (maybe apart from a brand-new Meridian, wouldn't know about that).

From reading many threads about the VW50's and VW60's and my own personal experience, I would say that it was common for VW50's to have ever worsening uniformity issues, but that this does not appear to be the common case for VW60's. Any significant uniformity problem is likely to show up as reduced average contrast (full black contaminated with color), and I speculate that this is what is causing the reduced contrast over time on many VW50's. However, as I said, it does not appear to be a significant issue with the VW60's - whatever was wrong with the VW50 appears to fixed on the VW60.
Have you read this thread?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1168031

Check out posts 6-8, especially "I have a friend who has had a similar thing happen with his VW60 just recently as well". From your description I'd say that the problem was reduced with the VW60 compared to the VW50, but it still seems to be there?

It was a relative comparison - many uniformity complaints on VW50 - very few (one?) on the VW60.

Have you read this thread?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1168031

Check out posts 6-8, especially "I have a friend who has had a similar thing happen with his VW60 just recently as well". From your description I'd say that the problem was reduced with the VW60 compared to the VW50, but it still seems to be there?

The 50 and 60" sxrd's that followed the Qualia 70" to market have had significant failure rates too. Sony is replacing the optical block under warranty. Two of 'em in my immediate family croaked. That's why I bought a JVC RS2 for my theater.

OK, that's one end of the ownership spectrum. The other end is my 60" XBR1 that has had the bulk of the family viewing since I bought it in early-2005, and with almost 5,000 hours on the 'clock' not a problem to be had anywhere. It's even still on the original bulb. I imagine a new bulb will be required soon, and it'll be interesting to see whether brightness has suffered - it is certainly not noticible to my eye (nor is any kind of contrast loss). My VW200 just gets special-event viewing, so has very low hours and shows no problems (although at sub-250hrs, wouldn't expect it to).

No, you're supposed to toss it in Wabo's garbage can.:p;)

Since it weighs so much I am not sure I could toss it. :D

Interesting thread. It does make you wonder if a thorough cleaning inside on the internals would make any difference?

The uniformity problems that developed on my 60" XBR2 don't leave me with anything but trepidation regarding the durability of SXRD.

IIRC, didn't Ekkehart try to open a dialogue with Sony about the issues they were seeing and wasn'y the poor response he received the reason for their decision to discontinue carrying Sony projectors?

This thread is feeding on FUD. Pure and simple.

I'm waiting for the DILA users to see if they have any of the same problems.

I'm waiting for the DILA users to see if they have any of the same problems.

There you go. The FUD is spreading.

This thread is feeding on FUD. Pure and simple.
I doubt that Qualia 006 owners would agree. For instance, see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15196817#post15196817 Their problems with SXRD technology appear quite real.

lawguy, honestly curious here - fud implies some degree of false information presented with the goal of altering public perception. there are multiple, independent reports from respected forum members regarding contrast loss.

do you think there is some conspiracy against sony - which includes getting well respected people to post false information?

or do you think there are a small number of isolated issues - that the average consumer should not be concerned with as the relative failure rate *has* to be insignificant?


depending on what happens at cedia, a sony pj will most likely be on the short list for my next projector. I definitely find this information valuable and it will impact my decision on what to purchase....I don't think it will eliminate sony from the mix. but the feedback posted here plus the known issue with the RP optical block is a data point that I find valuable.

There you go. The FUD is spreading.

And if it ends up being true? Then what?

We would need someone with a JVC RS1, that measured with a light meter at the first 100 hours or so, and now measure today with or without a new bulb after these 2+ years.

Not sure how many would still have the RS1 though.

Who said DLP projectors degrade? The chip certainly doesn't. Not sure if the color wheel fades over time, but if it does I'd consider it to be very minor. I do agree that a failing color wheel is a seperate issue, and other than that I do believe that DLP's are basically immune to aging. Of course the chip itself could fail, but again, that's not the same as aging.

I've modified and taken apart both SXRD, DLP and LCOS at length. Optical elements, lenses, panels etc.

DLP color wheels can collect dust and a lot of it. I've cleaned it 3 or 4 times on my Benq W10K and gave up in the end. Sharp color wheel on the other hand was almost mint after 3 years of use. The light chamber is pretty good at sealing dust out in DLP units, but it does get in over time, the reflecting mirror gets scored and dusty, so do prisms.

SXRD design from Sony has a large amount of air flowing through it's SXRD panels, I can see no way of sealing all the dust out unless you use HEPA filter:)
There is only a cheesy plastic cover blocking the path to the SXRD chamber. The panels deform with heat, no question about it. I observed it on my VW50 when one of the cooling fans failed. The panels would start bleeding before the unit shut down due to thermal overheating. How much would they change over time in normal operation is hard to tell.

When I took appart JVCs I was underwhelmed by the workmanship and dust can get in there, although the LCOS chamber seems to be better sealed than SXRD.

I think all the technologies could benefit from better designed filters, but it's a function of cost I guess. Just my 2 cents. :)

I recall that the burn-in was visible on the projected image as well.

According to this thread you're right!
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=722334

09-14-06, 07:07 PM #28
ChrisWiggles
But does that have any impact on the image at the screen?

09-14-06, 10:29 PM #29
AJW
Yes, with a white full field test pattern you could clearly read the text.
The DMD had to be replaced on this unit.

...there are multiple, independent reports from respected forum members regarding contrast loss...Where are they? After 1 year I still see only 3 measured documented case :eek::eek:

Cine4Home VW50 Initial CR: 2,400:1? Later CR: < 1,000:1
W.Mayer Q004 Initial CR: ~ 2,000:1? Later CR: ~ 1,000:1?
Andrewfee HW10 Initial CR: ~ 5,000:1? Later CR: ~ 3,000:1?


Lets document them in this thread once and for all or it is just FUD

The thread starter per AVS custom should document each case and link in the initial post. As data is added to this thread it should be edited and updated by the thread owner so we can have up to date data in the first post. I will also edit this post until the thread starter takes over.

Lets get to the bottom of this!

And if it ends up being true? Then what?

Exactly my point. "What if" can be asked about anything.

Exactly my point. "What if" can be asked about anything.

I personally wouldn't buy any UHP bulb or LED bulb biased Dila/Sxrd that I would keep for 5+ years without knowing the truth first.

lawguy, honestly curious here - fud implies some degree of false information presented with the goal of altering public perception. there are multiple, independent reports from respected forum members regarding contrast loss.

do you think there is some conspiracy against sony - which includes getting well respected people to post false information?

or do you think there are a small number of isolated issues - that the average consumer should not be concerned with as the relative failure rate *has* to be insignificant?

I think that a few people have anecdotal experiences of some unidentified condition(s) resulting in contrast loss but that there is nothing to tie these stories together to suggest that there is any common defect. Some other people are rabble rousers and like to egg everyone else on.

I have never owned a Sony PJ but if the right one came along I would not be afraid of this issue.

I personally wouldn't buy any UHP bulb or LED bulb biased Dila/Sxrd that I would keep for 5+ years without knowing the truth first.IIRC you owned a VW50 at some point. Do you have any CR loss data you can contribute?

I personally wouldn't buy any UHP bulb or LED bulb biased Dila/Sxrd that I would keep for 5+ years without knowing the truth first.

Why not include DLP in that list as well? People are reporting that color wheels can become contaminated with dust? Don't you want to know the truth about that also?

Where are they? After 1 year I still see only 1 measured documented case :eek::eek:

Cine4Home VW50 Initial CR: 2,400:1? Later CR: < 1,000:1
Case 2: ???
Case 3: ???

Lets document them in this thread once and for all or it is just FUD

The thread starter per AVS custom should document each case and link in the initial post as data is added to this thread so we can hav an upto date count. I will also edit this post until the thread starter takes over.

Lets get to the bottom of this!

HHF,
the three independent reports that I was referring to are the posts from Cine4Home, UMR, and W. Mayer (in the second post in this thread) - as far as I can see, madshi posted direct links in the original post.

Cine4Home also references that multiple (5) SXRD projectors were measured and demonstrated contrast loss. W.Mayer reported a 50% contrast loss....only UMR did not provide any numerical references. from my perspective, we are looking at significantly more than only 1 documented case. Are you looking for explicit before and after values to consider it a documented case?

I'm really not trying to rabble rouse here...but it just seems like the off-handed dismissal of this issue is a little strange for this forum. No one questioned Guy Kuo when he posted (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=384169) 5 years ago that his HT1000s color wheel got dirty....many people stated to inspect and clean color wheels.

I'm sure there are a number of people with sony sxrds who could provide current contrast measures if they have a meter. not truly apples to apples if there is no 'before' number to compare to, but it would be interesting to see the data on an aged pj vs. specs. maybe like that color wheel contamination poll, we could start to gather some more user data here.


Lawguy,
thanks for the comments. drawing any true conclusions based on the data available today is impossible. however, I see value in this discussion, would be interested in seeing more reports from the field (ie users) and would be very interested in any feedback from Sony. I'd make an educated guess that Sony has a lot of ALT data that could help quantify this issue - but I'm also quite sure that we'll never see it publicly posted.

...Cine4Home also references that multiple (5) SXRD projectors were measured and demonstrated contrast loss..You need to parse his statement: We do not know how many SXRD projectors will be affected. We measured like 5 of them in the last half year and all showed some degradation in contrast, color unformity and bright corners. This might not be representative (yet), so we do not make ane prognosis...Did all 5 have CR loss and how much for each? :)
...
W.Mayer reported a 50% contrast loss...
I will add W.Mayer's data to the list as case 2...
...Are you looking for explicit before and after values to consider it a documented case? ...YES!! Cine4 and UMR measured the contrast losses they should share them.
...I'm really not trying to rabble rouse here...but it just seems like the off-handed dismissal of this issue is a little strange for this forum...I don't see any off-handed dismissal. I was in the thread you cited and a year later there is still no more additional information. I have had my VW100 measured and have seem measurements of several Q004, VW100, VW50, VW60 and VW200 at a post prod company that I work with with no contrast loss on bulb change.

Before people measured ther bulbs we did not know that it is likely almost every bulb will loose 40% or more output in a few hundred hours. Maybe it is the case that every pj will loose 40% or more cr in a few hundred hours. We just don't know.

Maybe Cine4 got a defective machine(s). Maybe something got damaged between the time W Mayer sold his Q004 and then bought it back. We just don't know.

My FPJ1 (RS2) measured 27,500:1 at 30 hours. I will have it remeasured in a year and see how it did!

Lets capture the data.

Didn't Cine4home have the problem on many Sony projectors? So many that they tried to get Sony to do something about it and Sony wouldn't?

The issues on the RPTVs are infamous on the forum and suggest that the panels are subject to wear. It isn't unbelievable in the least that Sony projectors would degrade in performance over time.

You need to parse his statement: Did all 5 have CR loss and how much for each? :)
Clearly all of them had CR loss, but we don't know how much each.

Cine4 and UMR measured the contrast losses they should share them.
If you read back through the thread were Ekki/Cine4Home originally reported his findings, he got burned by several people. It went as far as some people openly suggesting that Ekki had unethical motivations for reporting the possible issue. I don't think it's a wonder he stepped back from the discussion. Also I don't think we'll get any data from umr cause I've seen umr avoiding posting too much negative information about products before. He doesn't like getting into cross fire - and IMHO it's quite understandable, seeing what happened to Ekki when he posted his experiences.

I don't see any off-handed dismissal.
We have 2 or 3 people posting in this thread that it's all just FUD. That is off-handed dismissal in my book.

I have had my VW100 measured and have seem measurements of several Q004, VW100, VW50, VW60 and VW200 at a post prod company that I work with with no contrast loss on bulb change.
Cool, that's good information - thanks!

If William (W. Mayer) and Jeff (UMR) reported such, I would take it as the real deal. THese guys have stellar reps here at AVS in the $20K forum.

Why not include DLP in that list as well? People are reporting that color wheels can become contaminated with dust? Don't you want to know the truth about that also?

Something spinning at 10,000 RPM, is not likely to have much dust on it ;)

If any, it would be very little, and could be cleaned. The SXRD panels possibly degrade and can't just be cleaned.

Also you seem to be getting very defensive over this... I currently own no projector and will take things as they come, I will then analyze and get the facts, and not just listen to some irate fanboys rant that there can be no issue at all.


You are looking for the data, I'm sure not many, if any up to this point would have even looked for this. I wouldn't have. You wouldn't have. I don't have a projector long enough to really even find out.

I don't think DLP is perfect either. Just less trouble overall if you can overcome the RBE. I was not a DLP fan at all until some good 6x color wheel projectors hit the market. I hated the lower color wheel speeds for the RBE, getting eye strain, and headaches from watching for 10 mins or less.

I read the OP's links and also this thread and I'll admit I'm a little confused.
The facts seem a little sparse and as people argue all sides of several issues all at the same time my head starts spinning. This is what I 'think' I've read so far... two people both from Germany have measured CR degradation that is excessive... one blames the SXRD panels/chip and the other dust. Then Andrewfee is concerned about a changing greyscale and umr tells him the SXRD panels/chip degrading is to be faulted... and that's basically it? the whole case for SXRD panel/chip degradation.

I purchased my VW60 a year and a half ago. At about 100-hours I calibrated the greyscale (using HCFR) for the first time and got it darn near perfect at 30IRE and everything above just using the User Menu RGB bias and gain controls... can't trust my display meter (i1) on anything less IRE-wise... but if I were to believe the meter it was very close at 20 and 10-IRE as well (the 10-IRE kept fluctuating some). At around 400-hours or so I got a null-modem serial cable and in a sense acquired ImageDirector capabilities and thus began a series of re-calibrations as I tried creating various gamma curves searching for the custom gamma curve to balance getting good shadow detail in the dark scenes and while having good 'pop' in the brighter scenes. First off, my greyscale RGB balance had change slightly over those few hundred hours since that first calibration as did the gamma... but very minor. From my 100-IRE luminance readings I did notice some bulb dimming had also occurred. Within ImageDirector I began creating custom gamma curves and then RGB balancing the greyscale in 5-IRE increments and smoothing the Red and Blue gamma curves in-between the 5-IRE increment measured points. I probably did this 5 or 6 times during a two-month period in which I must have put about 250-hours on the projector. Over that time I didn't really notice any obvious changes in greyscale RGB balance or the gamma. There were some very minor session-to-session variations I noticed but chalk them up to bulb temp warm-up or fluctuations as there appeared to be no pattern to these very minor RGB balance and gamma variations and these variations could also be noted to continue occurring during the longer two to three hour 'tweaking' sessions. I always let the projector warm-up for at least a full hour before I started any tweaking session... regardless very minor drifting over time continued, however its never appeared to be drifting in any predictable way or consistently other than to say it is getting slowly dimmer over time (100-IRE luminance)... so I just figured it was the bulb output varying ever so slightly as its elements burn off... I don't know, I'm no expert on pjs or bulbs and don't pretend to be one. I don't have an accurate enough light meter to attempt contrast measurements so I never did those. Today my VW60 has over 1400-hours on it and I haven't 're-calibrated' in a year (back when at around 600-hours or so). Though I haven't noticed anything major happening during normal viewing (other than some expected dimming) this thread has got me curious... If I have the time this weekend I just may break out the i1 and HCFR and ID to see how much things have really changed over time.

However I'm not really worried since it appears practically every Sony pj owner is unaware and happy. My thinking on this parallels the philosophical question of "Does a falling tree in the forest make a sound if no one is there to hear it fall?" even though a cheap recorder could solve this query, I prefer to ask the question this way "If no one is there to hear the tree fall, does it really make a difference if there's a sound or not?" IWOs if one doesn't notice a degradation in contrast or RGB balance, does it really matter then if a meter says its changed? Obviously if the many thousands of Sony pj owners could tell just from normal viewing there was this degradation of SXRD panels/chip I don't believe there would be this discussion of validity... rather it would be more of a lynch mob mentality.

With regard to DLP, couldn't the colour wheel fade over time, lowering the amount of light transmission and possibly affecting gamut?


With SXRD, I have definitely noticed a loss in contrast with my HW10. Unfortunately I don't have hard data on that, but I seem to recall measuring around 5,000:1 when it was new, with it now being closer to 3,000:1.

With my projector being mounted near the ceiling, it's quite difficult to get the meter placed exactly the same, so if I were to measure it twice, there would probably be some variation. I don't know how the zoom would affect things either. (it was set up to produce a smaller image when new)

Gamma originally measured ≈2.3 using the Gamma 3 preset, and that now measures ≈2.05. Originally I wasn't sure if this was too dark or not, but now it's the only option.



Greyscale has continued to get significantly worse over time, and I do not believe this is the result of the bulb ageing. If it were the bulb, things should be changing evenly, but there is a hump in the red greyscale tracking, with it going up significantly below around 20% grey.

A friend with a VW60 has seen the exact same thing happen with his projector. He has been able to compensate for it using Image Director 3's 9-point gamma controls, but the HW10 does not support this.


Panel uniformity is getting noticeably worse. When the projector was new, it was essentially perfect. Now after 600 or so hours, there's a noticeable red tint on the upper half of the image in brighter scenes.


Another problem I'm having that is specific to the HW10 is that the lens doesn't seem to stay in focus. In the first half hour or so, the image is basically unwatchable. As it warms up it gradually shifts back into focus, but a couple of hours later it's shifted further and is no longer in focus any more.

I believe this is contributing to the problems, as I'm running up an extra 30-60 minutes every time I have the projector on before I can even watch it and have a good image now. (originally it was taking about 20-30 minutes for the colour to look good and the image to be in focus)

No matter when I focus it (15, 30, 45, 60 minutes after being on) it always starts out defocused and gradually shifts into focus, then back out in the opposite direction. (shifting from front to back focus or vice-versa) If I watch two films back-to-back, I end up focusing the projector again before the second if it's just me watching. (and to make sure I get critical focus, I use my Canon SLR about an inch from the screen, hooked up with a long usb lead to get live view of the pixels themselves on my laptop)

15 mins, 40 mins, ≈3 hours. (already starting to shift out of focus again after the film)
http://i27.tinypic.com/11u94as.jpg http://i29.tinypic.com/mh4iu.jpg http://i29.tinypic.com/2eycaa0.jpg


I haven't yet contacted Sony about getting it seen to, as I've been a bit busy the last few weeks, but I'll be on the phone with them next week to get it sorted.

Hopefully it will all be able to be resolved (with the amount of issues I'm having, I wouldn't be surprised if I just got a new projector) but so far, I am deeply regretting my purchase.

Before this I had an old DLP projector, and while it was never anything particularly special (a Toshiba MT200 that I picked up very cheaply) it did not have ageing problems like this. (but even with a 5x wheel, the rainbows were distracting, as was the PWM)


Another friend of mine has an HW10 and he doesn't seem to have had any problems with it, though he doesn't have the equipment to measure contrast or greyscale & gamma tracking. He hasn't noticed the lens shifting/panel uniformity changing at all.

...With SXRD, I have definitely noticed a loss in contrast with my HW10. Unfortunately I don't have hard data on that, but I seem to recall measuring around 5,000:1 when it was new, with it now being closer to 3,000:1... I will add you as case 3 HW10: 5,000:1 to 3,000:1 drop. IIRC 4,400:1 iris closed/min throw was about the best reliably measured on a HW10 so you got a very good one. Also you can lose 30% at max throw/iris open.
...I don't know how the zoom would affect things either. (it was set up to produce a smaller image when new)...Throw/iris combo will affect CR
...Greyscale has continued to get significantly worse over time, and I do not believe this is the result of the bulb ageing. If it were the bulb, things should be changing evenly, but there is a hump in the red greyscale tracking, with it going up significantly below around 20% grey.)...IIMU that UHP bulbs start out red deficient and that increases as the bulb ages. That is why recalibration is required, the bulbs do not wear evenly.

OT: it sounds like you have a great case for replacement from Sony

Keep the data coming!!

...We have 2 or 3 people posting in this thread that it's all just FUD. That is off-handed dismissal in my book...Lawguy participated in the original thread and was very supportive of Cine4Home at that time. He does not own a Sony and has no skin in this game!

I participated and asked for data and clarification, including PMs to Cine4.

You seemed convinced then with very little data and are convinced now. What is your point. Even Cine4 later said he did not have enough data to draw a conclusion.

If there is a real problem the more data we collect the more likely it will be that Sony will have to redress it with exchanges or extended warrantees it worked with the RPTV issues!

I would encourage everyone to read the original thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15047981#post15047981

If William (W. Mayer) and Jeff (UMR) reported such, I would take it as the real deal. THese guys have stellar reps here at AVS in the $20K forum.IIRC you were one of the first Q004 buyers and maybe the forum's longest SXRD owner. What is your experience with CR loss over time?

I will add you as case 3 HW10: 5,000:1 to 3,000:1 drop. IIRC 4,400:1 iris closed/min throw was about the best reliably measured on a HW10 so you got a very good one. Also you can lose 30% at max throw/iris open.
Throw/iris combo will affect CR
IIMU that UHP bulbs start out red deficient and that increases as the bulb ages. That is why recalibration is required, the bulbs do not wear evenly.

OT: it sounds like you have a great case for replacement from Sony

Keep the data coming!!
It may have been more around the 4500 mark as that was 6 months ago, so those are just very rough figures.


What I meant though is that if it was just a lack of red from the UHP lamp, shouldn't you just see an even reduction in red from 0–100%?

What I'm seeing is an uneven reduction in red, and I suspect it's the panel rather than just the lamp.


Before Sony collect this, I'll leave it running for an hour and then take greyscale / contrast measurements at a fixed zoom level so I can compare it to whatever gets done. (e.g. if they replace the projector I'll be able to compare it to a new one)

It is pretty well known that SXRD panels degrade over time.

Secondly, if Ekkie and UMR say it.......it is beyond reproach.

Why do not more folks report this problem? Not many SXRD owners are high end tweakers who accurately measure CR, etc. over time. Or if they are high end tweakers they sell their Pj after a year:eek::p

Most just enjoy their PJ. See no evil hear no evil.

For those that are performance oriented, spec oriented, and are thinking long term....this is an interesting and relevant discussion.

I would love some owners to re measure CR and compare it to their initial measurements.

here is a link (http://www.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2005-August/006205.html) to a broken link...but the description is worth a read!

You seemed convinced then with very little data and are convinced now. What is your point.
I was convinced that Ekki had correctly reported what he had experienced. And I'm convinced that umr also has correctly reported what he has experienced. I've read enough posts (and articles) from these 2 people to be sure of that they wouldn't report such issues for unethical reasons. Little data does not make their reports in any way less believable. Either you trust their report, or you don't. If you don't, why would them reporting data change your mind? For all you know, they could pull the data out of thin air. It's not like them posting data would in any way proof their reports. *Of course* I'd like to have exact data from them, too. But I don't need it to be convinced that their reports are trustworthy. And I don't even know if they keep this kind of data stored somewhere...

Now of course there's a chance that only some projectors are affected, or that only some are affected enough to be noticeable to the naked eye. So I'm all for collecting data. The big problem is how much reliable data we can get. Because as monomer already hinted, some budget probes do not have enough low light sensivity to measure reliable contrast numbers. E.g. one of the forum's favorite probes (i1 Pro) is rather bad at low luminance levels, I've read. The Chroma5 seems to be good enough, but I think it's a rather new probe? I'm not really a probe expert, though...

BTW, @andrewfee, the number of issues with your HW10 seems unusually high. I think you might just have a bad egg. I have a HW10, too (but only for a few months to hold me over until the new projectors hit the market later this year), and I don't have any of the problems you have (yet?).

Maybe I should add that I'm *not* on a crusade against Sony at all. I own an HW10 and I like it, but I never planned to keep it for long (due to aging concern). The only reason why I started this thread is that I will probably buy a new projector later this year and I anticipate the Sony VW85 to be one of the contenders. Because of that a possible SXRD aging issue concerns me, of course. I'd love to be able to consider the VW85 without having to worry, so I'm hoping that this thread will either clear things up a bit, or (ideally) that someone of you guys has a good Sony contact and can get some kind of feedback or something.

I think that a few people have anecdotal experiences of some unidentified condition(s) resulting in contrast loss but that there is nothing to tie these stories together to suggest that there is any common defect.


For the record, I'm not talking about defects per se, but degrading panels in general. LCD, SXRD and DILA panels degrade over time, period. That's a fact, and it's simply ignorant to believe otherwise. Whether it becomes a visible issue to the owner within the life span of the projector, now that's another story. I'm quite sure that there will be very large differences in this regard, mostly based on how well the manufacturer minimizes the issue by properly designing the airflow of the projector, but all a manufacturer can do is minimize the issue, not remove it. Just as different DLP manufacturers will have varying degrees of reliability, sensitivity to dust etc., but there is no way you can deny that LCD/LCOS has an issue that the manufacturer needs to be aware of, that DLP basically just doesn't have. It is not helpful to anyone to deny that one technology has any issues at all. Look at it objectively, and you'll find that there is upsides and downsides to all available technologies. DLP isn't perfect either, but it IS better in this specific regard.

For the record, I'm not talking about defects per se, but degrading panels in general. LCD, SXRD and DILA panels degrade over time, period. That's a fact, and it's simply ignorant to believe otherwise.

Proof? I didn't think so.

Anecdotes do not make proof.

Here is some proof, at least for D-ILA. Look at page 10 of the link which shows (http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~ahmed/D-ILA2.pdf) reliability data. There is another reliability study that JVC published but the jvcdig site is down right now. When it comes back up, here (http://www.jvcdig.com/papers/Reliability%20of%20D-ILA%20Projectors06-03revF.pdf) is the link to it.

Not good enough for you? Again, I didn't think so.

Something spinning at 10,000 RPM, is not likely to have much dust on it ;)

Some here has already posted that they have found dust on color wheels and there have been threads on this forum about cleaning dust from color wheels. Of course, you give this no weight because you don't want to.

LCDs clearly have had and may still have issues. Panel issues may largely have been solved but LCDs have not solved the dust problem. I would not buy another LCD for this issue alone.

But when it comes to DLP, SXRD, or D-ILA, it is ignorant to make arguments that are based solely on opinions or anecdotes.

here is a link (http://www.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2005-August/006205.html) to a broken link...but the description is worth a read!


You do understand that LCOS never had organic material in their panels right? LCDs no longer do either, for that matter.

Lawguy participated in the original thread and was very supportive of Cine4Home at that time. He does not own a Sony and has no skin in this game!

Actually I do. The purely emotional response to anecdotes is crazy.

I don't deny that any particular person who has posted here has experienced problems. People generally tell the truth. Still, it is a long, long way from these handful of reported issues (not all of which share the same symptoms b/t/w) to gamelover360's statement that "It is pretty well known that SXRD panels degrade over time." Now the issue has spread from SXRD to D-ILA as well even though no one has even reported any specific problem with any D-ILA PJ!

Don't be sheep, people. Use your brains to reason this out based on the facts that have been reported.

Here is a cached version of that reliability presentation.http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:ICVnf_lhLP8J:www.jvcdig.com/papers/Reliability%2520of%2520D-ILA%2520Projectors06-03revF.pdf+d-ila+reliability&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Highlights: "No degradation // 100,000hours/10 years by material analysis"

"No change of contrast ratio and coefficient of light"

I was convinced that Ekki had correctly reported what he had experienced. And I'm convinced that umr also has correctly reported what he has experienced. I've read enough posts (and articles) from these 2 people to be sure of that they wouldn't report such issues for unethical reasons. Little data does not make their reports in any way less believable. Either you trust their report, or you don't. If you don't, why would them reporting data change your mind? For all you know, they could pull the data out of thin air. It's not like them posting data would in any way proof their reports...
I don't think anyone is calling anyone a liar here. Its how does one go from a couple of data points of observed CR reduction to assuming its because all SXRD panels/chip are degrading. Doesn't any other possibilities exist? I would think in order to fault all SXRD panels/chip for rapidly degrading one would need to see more varied data... so far its rather sparse to be drawing such a far sweeping conclusion as all SXRD panels/chips are degrading causing CR reduction and/or greyscale RGB balance issues. I work in a world of 'experts' on everything (I teach at a state university) and know that 'experts' make mistakes in methodology and data interpretation all the time and jump to conclusions just like the rest of us... so if someone calls for more data, its not dissing anyone's rep, its just being cautious before drawing conclusions. It's surely not a bad thing to try and gather more data and document the 'research' before making definitive claims about the actual cause of some observe anomaly. To suggest all SXRD panels/chip are degrading and causing all SXRD projectors from all production runs, all models, all locales and all environments (heat) to degrade CR and/or colors is a rather large leap to be taking off a springboard made up of so few data points... and in fact, I'm not sure the people with the data are actually even saying this... only that the matter needs to be looked into further, meaning there needs to be more data points and better methodology used to verify the 2 or 3 reported observations and narrow down the source or cause. And of course Sony's lack of concern in this particular matter is very disconcerting as their reasons could be anything from incompetence to arrogance to covering-up.

I don't think anyone is calling anyone a liar here.
In the original thread where Ekki posted his experiences some people did suggest that he might have unethical motivation for his posts. I think some of the emotion from that thread managed to creep over here.

Its how does one go from a couple of data points of observed CR reduction to assuming its because all SXRD panels are degrading. Doesn't any other possibilities exist? I would think in order to fault all SXRD panels for rapidly degrading one would need to see more varied data... so far its rather sparse to be drawing such a far sweeping conclusion as all SXRD panels are degrading causing CR reduction and/or greyscale RGB balance issues. I work in a world of 'experts' on everything (I teach at a state university) and know that 'experts' make mistakes in methodology and evaluation all the time and jump to conclusions just like the rest of us... so if someone calls for more data, its not dissing anyone's rep, its just being cautious before drawing conclusions. It's surely not a bad thing to try and gather more data and document the 'research' before making definitive claims about the actual cause of some observe anomaly. To suggest all SXRD panels are degrading and causing all SXRD projectors from all production runs, all models, all locales and all environments (heat) to degrade CR and/or colors is a rather large leap to be taking off a springboard of so little data points... and in fact, I'm not sure the people with the data are actually even saying this... only that the matter needs to be looked into further, meaning there needs to be more data points and better methodology used to narrow down the source or cause.
You're absolutely right and I fully agree. The problem is how to get more reliable data. Counting those SXRD owners who have actually measured contrast and reported in this thread, there seem to be about as many reports about aging problems as there are about no aging problems. But the actual number of reports (either way) is really low right now. Too low to draw any definite conclusions. The reason for the low report number is probably that only few consumers have done reliable measurements. So we may never be able to collect enough evidence to get real "proof", either way. But IMHO there are enough reports about SXRD aging problems that the problem should not be dismissed too easily. That's why I started this thread.

i have close to 3000 hrs on my VW-40 and it still looks brand new to me. I definitely do not see any degredation like i did on my old LCD unit, the whites are still white and not yellow tinted like my LCD did around 2000 hrs. My bulb is still plenty bright too, so maybe i lucked out.

Here is a cached version of that reliability presentation.http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:ICVnf_lhLP8J:www.jvcdig.com/papers/Reliability%2520of%2520D-ILA%2520Projectors06-03revF.pdf+d-ila+reliability&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Highlights: "No degradation // 100,000hours/10 years by material analysis"

"No change of contrast ratio and coefficient of light"

Link states 10,000 not 100,000 hours. I doubt any user on AVS keeps a projector long enough to put on 10000 hours. Based on my usage pattern on my HD 750 it would take over 20 years to reach 10,000 hours and I will probably be selling it soon as we are about to embark on a whole home reno so the theater room will be out of service for about a year:(

Link states 10,000 not 100,000 hours. (

That is actually a quote from that document so it is accurate. Look at page 14 where it says "No degradation // 100,000hours/10 years by material analysis."

The 10,000 hour reference was to a "continuous light test."

Anyone ever leave their projector on for 10,000 straight hours?

That is actually a quote from that document so it is accurate. Look at page 14 where it says "No degradation // 100,000hours/10 years by material analysis."

The 10,000 hour reference was to a "continuous light test."

Anyone ever leave their projector on for 10,000 straight hours?


Lawguy

My appologies you're absolutely correct. I guess I could use my HD 750 for 200 years without a problem:)

IIRC you were one of the first Q004 buyers and maybe the forum's longest SXRD owner. What is your experience with CR loss over time?

I certainly noticed it in the 5 years I had it... But I attributed it (non scientifically) to the bulb. I sold my unit with 1500 hours on the initial bulb. So, I never replaced it to see if my installer could get a similar initial CR with a second, new bulb.

I certainly noticed it in the 5 years I had it... But I attributed it (non scientifically) to the bulb. I sold my unit with 1500 hours on the initial bulb. So, I never replaced it to see if my installer could get a similar initial CR with a second, new bulb.The reason I asked is that my neighbor also went through "CR loss" with his Q04. His unit IIRC initially measured iris 3: 2,000:1 at 600 lumens, iris 1: 980:1 at 1,500 lumens at 200 hours he had 40% drop in light output so he had to open his iris. He had the same at 400 hours. Effectively because he had a 50% lamp decline he ended up at 500 hours operating a 980:1 at 780 lumens after opening his iris twice.

He ended up replacing his 10' wide scope screen with a 8' wide one. His second bulb aged to only a 35% drop. He stayed in iris 3, Problem solved.

I certainly noticed it in the 5 years I had it... But I attributed it (non scientifically) to the bulb.
Bulb ageing should have no effect on the FP's on/off CR. As bulb ages it loses luminosity, so the image is not as bright, but this also means the black level drops. Since the on/off CR is a product of your brightest and blackest projections, the CR should not change much as the bulb ages.

However, if one opens the iris to compensate for loss of lumens, then all bets are off.

15 mins, 40 mins, ≈3 hours. (already starting to shift out of focus again after the film)
http://i27.tinypic.com/11u94as.jpg http://i29.tinypic.com/mh4iu.jpg http://i29.tinypic.com/2eycaa0.jpg




Although yours may be more significant, I can assure you that focus changes as the projector warms up even on DCI units.

Art

...
However, if one opens the iris to compensate for loss of lumens, then all bets are off.I'm just curious: why changing the iris changes the on/off CR? It seams that iris suppose to attenuate both "on level" and "off level" the same so result CR will be unchanged. But I constantly see it in the various measurement sections, so what really happens?

AFAIK, closing iris dimming blacks more and dimming whites less. So the CR increase. But what makes me curious with that, is the gamma curve. Should not it be recallibrated with iris changing?

AFAIK, closing iris dimming blacks more and dimming whites less. So the CR increase. But what makes me curious with that, is the gamma curve. Should not it be recallibrated with iris changing?What I can't understand why it attenuates blacks more? I always thought of the iris as of something that cuts off some % of photons... I just plainly can't understand why it cuts off more when there are fewer of them

... I always thought of the iris as of something that cuts off some % of photons...:confused:
In a projector a lens iris blocks scattered light. In the off state scattered light is a higher % of the total light output than the on state.

Wouldn't light scatter adversely affect ANSI contrast (i.e. mixed content) and not On/Off (mostly black or mostly bright) as much? I thought there were other mechanisms at work when using a manually adjustable iris to increase On/Off CR.

Unless by scattered light you are referring to light not meant to leave the optical engine in the first place as opposed to light that is scattered in the lens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK
I personally wouldn't buy any UHP bulb or LED bulb biased Dila/Sxrd that I would keep for 5+ years without knowing the truth first.

Why not include DLP in that list as well? People are reporting that color wheels can become contaminated with dust? Don't you want to know the truth about that also?

This has been reported in the past around here, with the NEC HT1000 I believe ( more of a film from the bulb housing off gassing over time ). It was easily solved with a Q Tip and rubbing alcohol !!

I have what I believe was the 4th VW50 to be sold in the US. It's on it's 3rd lamp, and has somewhere on the order of 3000 hours on it (is there a place in the service menus to check this?).

I've not noticed any significant contrast difference. Although I admit to not having taken measurements. I also fully admit that if it were gradual enough, I may not be able to accurately pick up on it... as 3 years is a substantal spread in time for our subjective memories to do mental comparisons with.

I could well have taken a 50% hit and not known it. that having been said, the picture still looks fantastic.

Thanks, Steve.

The thread is about a week old now, so I'd like to do a first summary:

We have heard a few reports from fellow AVSForum SXRD owners. Some have confirmed a contrast loss (some with measurements, some without), I think 2 people have disputed a contrast loss (with measurements). And some people haven't noticed a contrast loss, but haven't done measurements.

So where does that leave us? We have no proof either way. There is some evidence that some SXRD units seem to have experienced a contrast loss, but it seems not all units are affected. We simply don't really know how big the danger is. It could be minimal, or high, we just don't know.

I guess we will have to withhold final judgement. It would be great, if all you SXRD owners with a low-light-sensitive probe could start doing contrast measurements. Maybe in a year from now we will know more?

Personally, I'm not sure what to think now. Will I consider the VW85? Or will I be too afraid of losing native CR? I've not really made up my mind yet. If the VW85 and the new JVC models seem equally attractive to me, this aging stuff may tip me over to JVC, though...

There is some evidence that some SXRD units seem to have experienced a contrast loss, but it seems not all units are affected. We simply don't really know how big the danger is. It could be minimal, or high, we just don't know.

Assuming that the contrast loss is actually happening to a significant number of displays, we are still left with the question: Is this an inherent flaw in SXRD chips, or is it an implementation flaw in earlier FP/RP SXRD displays? If it is the latter, then this would only be a potential issue for purchasers of older used SXRD displays.

...Unless by scattered light you are referring to light not meant to leave the optical engine in the first place...Correct, which is why reflective designs (LCOS/DLP) get higher benefits from a lens iris than transmissive designs (LCD). It also explains why DLP gets more benefit from an iris (cat's eye) than the other technologies. There is more potential stray light in a DLP engine than in the other technologies.

...Is this an inherent flaw in SXRD chips, or is it an implementation flaw in earlier FP/RP SXRD displays...Contrast loss can be caused by flaw or individual unit failure in any of the following:

1) Initial Polarizer which polarizes the light
2) Beam Splitter which splits light into RGB
3) Pre Polarizer which polarizes the light
4) SXRD Chip and drive circuts which modulates the light
5) Cleanup Polarizer which properly orients the polarized light
6) Post Polarizer which blocks the modulated polarized light.
7) Recombiner which combines the seperate R|G|B streams.
8) Lens which focuses the light.

There are significant differences between RPTV light engines and those of the FPs.

There are differences between the light engines used by the different FP models.

:D

Correct, which is why reflective designs (LCOS/DLP) get higher benefits from a lens iris than transmissive designs (LCD). It also explains why DLP gets more benefit from an iris (cat's eye) than the other technologies. There is more potential stray light in a DLP engine than in the other technologies.So does an iris attenuate scattered light more then the rest of the light? So really CR = (K_scattered * I_scatterd + K*I_white) / (K_scattered * I_scatterd + K*I_black)?

So does an iris attenuate scattered light more the the rest of the light? So really CR = (K_scattered * L_scatterd + K*Lwhite) / (K_scattered * I_scatterd + K*I_black)?Where are you going with this? An iris does not magically "cut off some % of photons"

Where are you going with this? An iris does not magically "cut off some % of photons"
Just trying to understand why... Diaphragm (iris) stops passing light except the light going through aperture. Diaphragm attenuates light by the same number which depends only of the relative size of an aperture and doesn't depend of the light intensity. So CR will grow with lowering aperture size only if scattered light is attenuated more then non-scattered. Otherwise it wan't affect white to black ratio. Or at least scattered light will affect darker image more

Contrast loss can be caused by flaw or individual unit failure in any of the following:

Yep, that was my point - lots of things that can go wrong in FP and RP displays. The SXRD technology is just one small part of the picture.

Just trying to understand why... Diaphragm (iris) stops passing light except the light going through aperture. Diaphragm attenuates light by the same number which depends only of the relative size of an aperture and doesn't depend of the light intensity. So CR will grow with lowering aperture size only if scattered light is attenuated more then non-scattered. Otherwise it wan't affect white to black ratio. Or at least scattered light will affect darker image more

I'm not having any luck finding any of Darin's great explanations of his experiments, but from what I remember:

When displaying a "white" screen, if you look at the light path inside the projector you'll find it's relatively well focused with the vast majority making up a sort of cat's eye shape. This is all light that's intentionally directed toward the screen.

When the projector is displaying "black" screen, you'll find that there's still light going through the same area, but it's not focused as nicely and is a bit bigger beam. This is all light that's unintentionally directed toward the screen.

So when you clamp down on an iris (or add your own custom one like Darin did with his Optoma IIRC), you're blocking a constant percentage of the beam area, but you're blocking a larger percentage of the "black" light than the "white" because the black light beam is more spread out. So you can put a rather restrictive iris in that has a much larger effect on black than white.

Here's an example I found:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16376630&highlight=optoma+iris#post16376630

I'm not having any luck finding any of Darin's great explanations of his experiments, but from what I remember:

When displaying a "white" screen, if you look at the light path inside the projector you'll find it's relatively well focused with the vast majority making up a sort of cat's eye shape. This is all light that's intentionally directed toward the screen.

When the projector is displaying "black" screen, you'll find that there's still light going through the same area, but it's not focused as nicely and is a bit bigger beam. This is all light that's unintentionally directed toward the screen.

So when you clamp down on an iris (or add your own custom one like Darin did with his Optoma IIRC), you're blocking a constant percentage of the beam area, but you're blocking a larger percentage of the "black" light than the "white" because the black light beam is more spread out. So you can put a rather restrictive iris in that has a much larger effect on black than white.

Here's an example I found:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16376630&highlight=optoma+iris#post16376630Thanks! I've got it :) Sorry for offtopic

Thanks, Steve.

The thread is about a week old now, so I'd like to do a first summary:

We have heard a few reports from fellow AVSForum SXRD owners. Some have confirmed a contrast loss (some with measurements, some without), I think 2 people have disputed a contrast loss (with measurements). And some people haven't noticed a contrast loss, but haven't done measurements.

So where does that leave us? We have no proof either way. There is some evidence that some SXRD units seem to have experienced a contrast loss, but it seems not all units are affected. We simply don't really know how big the danger is. It could be minimal, or high, we just don't know.

I guess we will have to withhold final judgement. It would be great, if all you SXRD owners with a low-light-sensitive probe could start doing contrast measurements. Maybe in a year from now we will know more?

Personally, I'm not sure what to think now. Will I consider the VW85? Or will I be too afraid of losing native CR? I've not really made up my mind yet. If the VW85 and the new JVC models seem equally attractive to me, this aging stuff may tip me over to JVC, though...

Statistically if you find 1 unit with deteriorated contrast out of say 10 samples, it might be a fluke and the real number 1:10 000 or whatever. However, if you find more than 1 from a small sample you can be pretty sure it isn't a fluke and there is a real problem.

From what I gather there are several affected units reported from independent sources. This makes a very strong case for Sony having a problem in at least a significant percentage of their units... :(

An analogy: We only know for certain that life exist in one place (earth). Because of this we can't know if life is exceedingly rare or not (are we alone in the galaxy? In the universe? Are most star systems inhabited?). However, should we find independent extraterrestrial life anywhere (microbial or whatever) we can be pretty darn sure the galaxy is teeming with it. Two flukes in one place doesn't happen (or is unlikely in the extreme)

Edit:
(it doesn't say anything of the new models though, only the ones with reported problems. I would be cautious though until there are independent measurements or an explanation by Sony)

Statistically if you find 1 unit with deteriorated contrast out of say 10 samples, it might be a fluke and the real number 1:10 000 or whatever. However, if you find more than 1 from a small sample you can be pretty sure it isn't a fluke and there is a real problem...I see you did not pass statistics in school :D. Depends on sample size, population size and sample selection mechanism among other factors.

Real example from this forum, check the Sharp12KII in the < $3K forum to verify. I had to return 2 12KII because of lamp start failure after 30 to 45 days of ownership. There were 3 or 4 other members who had the same issues. Should I conclude that all Sharp projectors would fail due to lamp start issues based on 6 cases from a very small sample size?

Consumer electronics in this segment typically is manu with a 2 to 5% failure rate. If Sony/Sharp/JVC or anyone else sells 100,000 units, 2,000 to 5,000 of them are going to fail for any variety of reason.

What I find very odd is that the thread starter who was convinced 1 year ago that that SXRDs had significant CR losses over time saye he bought a HW10 SXRD anyways. :eek::eek:

Does someone have (and knowledge to discern) a diagram of the SXRD Optical Engine, preferably one from an older gen engine, compared to the new high frame-rate ones.

One user was going to dissassemble his A3000 Optical engine (uses the 120hz SXRD chips), and in the OB diagram, he noticed the new OB differed from the old in that it had an additional UV filter in front of the blue polarizer. This was just his finding from the diagrams, not firsthand.

I have an A3000 SXRD TV, and I've yet to read about a single case of the "green blob" issue with these nearly 2 year old TVs. Objectively, it looks to have better contrast than when I bought it, probably the slight dimming of bulb = deeper blacks.

I see you did not pass statistics in school :D. Depends on sample size, population size and sample selection mechanism among other factors.

Real example from this forum, check the Sharp12KII in the < $3K forum to verify. I had to return 2 12KII because of lamp start failure after 30 to 45 days of ownership. There were 3 or 4 other members who had the same issues. Should I conclude that all Sharp projectors would fail due to lamp start issues based on 6 cases from a very small sample size?

Consumer electronics in this segment typically is manu with a 2 to 5% failure rate. If Sony/Sharp/JVC or anyone else sells 100,000 units, 2,000 to 5,000 of them are going to fail for any variety of reason.

What I find very odd is that the thread starter who was convinced 1 year ago that that SXRDs had significant CR losses over time saye he bought a HW10 SXRD anyways. :eek::eek:

I passed without problems thank you very much :D

Of course the key is independent samples. There might have been a faulty batch etc. However, we have reports both from USA and Germany and from quite a number of units. Not conclusive but it makes a strong case.

If I got my calculations right:
If the failure rate is 5%, there is a 1.15% chance of finding at least 3 faulty units out of a sample of 10. Implying that the failure rate likely is higher.

Using a failure rate of 2% we get a 0.09% chance...

And remember, we are talking the same issue here (contrast). The 5% is the cumulative amount of all problems regarding the projector (I hope! :eek:). I think they have a large portion of that percentage reserved for other kind of failures (lamp, dead pixels, convergence, etc etc). Otherwise, if you have a 5% failure rate for each component you'd be a very lucky man indeed to find a single working projector!

So I at least got alarm bells ringing... :rolleyes: Especially since Sony was reluctant to look into the issue.:confused:

Regarding the Sharps: No, not unless all Sharp owners reported the problem. However, if 3 out of a limited number had the same problem I would guess that lamp failure is very common with this model and I might not buy it...

... However, we have reports both from USA and Germany and from quite a number of units. Not conclusive but it makes a strong case....quite a number of units is 3 or 2 or 1 depending on how strict your sample requirements are. If you know of others please list them and I will add them.

... :rolleyes: Especially since Sony was reluctant to look into the issue.:confused:....When and where was Sony reluctant to look into the issue. You seem to be ignoring the fact that in the original thread Bytehoven took the issue to his Sony contacts. I PMed Cine4 asking for details to take to my contact (college roomate,
and senior exec marketing NA) and was told no such issues in FPs that Sony was aware of.

This is turning into a case of "when did you stop beating your wife" :(

I now 100% agree with LawGuy, this is just FUD.

Although yours may be more significant, I can assure you that focus changes as the projector warms up even on DCI units.

Art
I realise that focus will change on most projectors as they warm up, but my problem is that it's taking about an hour to actually reach critical focus, and then after another couple of hours, it's starting to shift back out of focus.

I probably have my projector on at least five times a week, and have had it since the beginning of February. I have approx. 650 hours on the bulb now, and I'd say at least 150 of that is simply letting the projector warm up before there's an acceptable image.

Due to convergence errors, it really needs to be at critical focus for the image to look sharp at all. If my convergence was better, perhaps the image wouldn't look so bad when it hasn't reached full sharpness.

I have a spare couple of hours today so I'll be taking full measurements from the projector (contrast, greyscale/gamma tracking etc.) and then contacting Sony support about it.

I'll then report back here once whatever repairs/replacements they deem necessary are taken care of to see how things compare.

quite a number of units is 3 or 2 or 1 depending on how strict your sample requirements are. If you know of others please list them and I will add them.

When and where was Sony reluctant to look into the issue. You seem to be ignoring the fact that in the original thread Bytehoven took the issue to his Sony contacts. I PMed Cine4 asking for details to take to my contact (college roomate,
and senior exec marketing NA) and was told no such issues in FPs that Sony was aware of.

This is turning into a case of "when did you stop beating your wife" :(

I now 100% agree with LawGuy, this is just FUD.

Maybe I got things wrong but I had the impression Ekkehart had problems with a significant number of units and was ignored when trying to contact Sony about the issue? Ekkehart is not the average consumer, but a reviewer and has a lot of credibility. For me it is very strange indeed if Sony refused too listen to him if he finds a problem.

Maybe I got things wrong though, still the statistics is a bit worrying...

When and where was Sony reluctant to look into the issue. You seem to be ignoring the fact that in the original thread Bytehoven took the issue to his Sony contacts.
At one point Bytehoven reported that Sony would be looking into the issue. But AFAIK that was the last we ever heard of this. My impression was that Sony/Bytehoven just wanted to shut the reports/rumors up. I don't think they ever followed through with a thourough analyzations. Or if they did, I've never heard of any results.

I'd be very happy to hear if Sony actually did analyze this in detail and came to some conclusions. But simply saying "Sony is not aware of any issues" doesn't cut it, cause that's the default reply any manufacurer gives to any issue at first. E.g. what I'd like to hear is Sony contacting cine4home/Ekki or umr to get access to some problematic machines to check out what went wrong. But AFAIK that hasn't happened (yet?)...

At one point Bytehoven reported that Sony would be looking into the issue. But AFAIK that was the last we ever heard of this. My impression was that Sony/Bytehoven just wanted to shut the reports/rumors up. I don't think they ever followed through with a thourough analyzations. Or if they did, I've never heard of any results.

You are making the argument that Sony's silence is evidence of Sony wanting
to shut down reports/rumors. This is crazy. Silence is completely consistent with it not even being aware of this as a potential issue or just dismissing it as internet rumors.

Sony apparently has a 3 year warranty on its projectors. If something goes wrong, why not just get it fixed or replaced? 3 years is a long time.

You are making the argument that Sony's silence is evidence of Sony wanting to shut down reports/rumors. This is crazy. Silence is completely consistent with it not even being aware of this as a potential issue or just dismissing it as internet rumors.
Bytehoven claimed that his Sony contact said they would be looking into this. So evidently they are aware and not dismissing it as internet rumors. Unless you want to hint that Bytehoven lied?

Sony apparently has a 3 year warranty on its projectors. If something goes wrong, why not just get it fixed or replaced?
Because:

(1) You might lose image quality over time without being aware of it. A slow degration over time is hard to detect.
(2) When you do think you noticed a drop in contrast, do you have the hardware to measure/prove it? Most consumers probably don't. So you'll never be sure: Do I imagine a drop in contrast? Or is it really there?
(3) Sending in a projector because you suspect something detoriated means that you are a while without a projector.
(4) According to Ekki/cine4home Sony (Germany at least) doesn't consider aging as a defect, so it won't get fixed or replaced by warranty.
(5) Even if you do get the projector replaced or fixed by warranty, it's a lot of hassle, leaves you without a projector for a while, requires recalibration, and may only last again for a few months without the next drop/aging.

Again: As you can read in my previous posts, I'm not claiming that every unit is affected, I'm not even claiming that there's a big danger of getting a problematic unit. I'm not sure if there's a consistent problem or not. But there's enough evidence to keep me slightly worried.

Bytehoven claimed that his Sony contact said they would be looking into this. So evidently they are aware and not dismissing it as internet rumors. Unless you want to hint that Bytehoven lied?

There are a million things that could have happened that that are completely consistent with innocence. You choose to see something suspicious when there is no reason to. This is called bias, whether you want to accept it or not.

But there's enough evidence to keep me slightly worried.

The point is that there is no evidence. There are only anecdotes. Again, you choose to spin these anecdotes in a way that gives you reason to worry. Objectively, there is no evidence. This is bias at work.

I am not saying that you are biased against Sony or anything like that. I am saying that you are biased toward believing that anecdotes posted on an internet forum (not all of which are even consistent) are evidence of a problem that you should be worried about.

I have seen enough "everyone knows" type "facts" to be completely discredited that I am wary of most everything that gets posted around here. You should be too.

There are a million things that could have happened that that are completely consistent with innocence. You choose to see something suspicious when there is no reason to. This is called bias, whether you want to accept it or not.
I said "I have the impression". The words I chose clearly state that this is a personal and subjective description of how things look to me. Do I claim that what my impression is has to be the truth? Nope. You don't seem to be capable of allowing me to have my own opinion. That's a rather poor attitude on your side.

The point is that there is no evidence. There are only anecdotes.
English is not my native language. My online translator defines "evidence" as being either proof or something more to a "hint". Maybe I understand the word wrong, but that seems like splitting hairs to me. In any case "anecdote" seems to be too weak for me...

Again, you choose to spin these anecdotes in a way that gives you reason to worry.
There's nothing to spin here. There are several reports from independent people (some of whom highly respected). Please feel free to ignore these reports. That's absolutely your right. In the lack of proof either way there can only be opinions. And opinions naturally differ. You should allow me to have my own opinion (which happens to be different from yours) without downqualifying me or my view in any way. Are you capable of that? If not, a forum might not be the right place for you...

I certainly don't consider the people who've reported these problems as spreaders of FUD. The people at cine4home have consistently demonstrated the highest integrity on both their site and these forums. W.Meyer has also come across as knowledgeble and truthful.

The problem, as noted earlier, is that incremental losses of contrast over time are impossible to spot unless you use the correct equipment and make proper measurements. I remember on these forums a few years ago that is was news to many people that lamps lost approx. 30%-40% of their light output in the first few hundred hours. It's something that's not very apparent over time.

Cine4home's report certainly raises some question marks with me over early Sony sxrd contrast deterioration because I have come to trust their methodology and integrity.But you have to ask yourself, if no-one can spot it without using a light meter under controlled conditions does it even matter?

I hate to revive this, but it is a serious concern for me. Being a person who is shopping for a display, I was hoping the HW15 would meet my needs. I actually wish it was sharper, wish I could afford the VW85, or a discounted VW70. Either way, now I'm concerned about the longevity of SXRD tech.

Has anybody looked into this any further? It would be nice to get more info on how SXRD projector performance degrades over time, particularly in comparison to and DILA and LCD. At this rate I'm going convert to a flatscreen display.

I'm interested also, as I am considering replacing my VW50 with a VW85-

any more thoughts or info ??

My understanding is that things have improved since the VW50 days, but it's hard to gather anything other than anecdotal evidence. I remember when LCDs were far worse - panel and polarizer de-generation over 2-3 years for normal use projectors was pretty much a given, but I think the use of inorganic panels has improved the situation for the LCDs, and I guess experience has helped both LCD and LCOS manufacturers. I just don't remember reading a lot of complaints about projectors in made in the last two years (yes they have had less time to deteriorate, but there are a lot of users with lots of bulb time by now and people on this forum are not shy with their complaints.

I'd say if you're really worried get a squaretrade or mack aftermarket warranty and hope for the best. I don't think it will be a normal occurrence for most SXRD owners, so I wouldn't let it unduly affect my purchase.

SXRD panel aging is only an issue if you plan to keep the projector a long time. Before you can blink there will be new light source and 3D to prompt for an upgrade.