Looking for opinions of anny former DLP FP owners that like the "pop" and sharpeness of DLP that made the switch to an RS10/20.


My 720p DLP projector just died an I need a replacement. :(

I have a Pioneer 60" plasma and a 46" Samsung series 6 LCD. We don't like the LCD panel, to the point that we are going to move it to the basement for the kids and replace it with a 50" Panasonic G15 panel.

My neighbour has a Panasonic AE3000 that I don't like at all because it lacks the sharpness and "pop".

I'm considering waiting for the Infocus 8602 to come out, seeing if I can justify the Planar 8150 or buying a JVC RS10 or RS20.

For the former DLPers, does the RS10/20 have enough pop and sharpness? Would you guys pulll the trigger on the JVC again?

The planar seems like a good machine, but it seems that most chose the RS20 in that snack bracket.

I didn't know waiting for CEDIA was so hard with a dark theater room :o

Thanks!

I think the rs10 has enough sharpness, dont think it has enough pop though. I have considered switching to a 3 chipper (sony) so i can do some extensive testing on the FI features ive found DLPs lacking, but so far, ive been to much of a chicken to do so. I think i would regret it if i did. if i dont try, ill never know though.

If youre happy with DLP, you will be playing it safe by getting another one.

There are alot of people loving the JVC`s though, and you might do so to so if you dont try one, youll never know.

There's also no doubt that a RS10/20 will be a significant upgrade over your 720p DLP. You really can't lose either way.

The waiting sucks doesn't it.

I would save for the 8150. If you like DLP, that's the one to own.

yea im with Brian. The 8150 would be my choise aswell.

BTW, there's an IN83 for sale in the classifieds. It's a well respected DLP for a very good price.

Make sure it will fit!!!! It has a horrible offset.

The 8150 is an awesome machine. Everything that's great about DLP, with great black levels/CR to boot.

I really thought about the RS20, I'm sure it's a great machine. But when it came down to it, the questions about motion handling and lack of "ANSI" contrast/pop/sharpness were outside my "security blanket"/comfort zone on a purchase that size.

I'm really glad I picked up a Planar. I'll put it this way, you may well be happy with an RS20 after owning a older DLP, but I'm confident you'd love a Planar.

Thanks for the feedback. I have no doubt that the new RS will be much better than my old DLP, but we would keep our 720p DLP over the Panasonic, even though it has more resolution.

Anyone have an RS10/20 now that used to have a DLP?

The Planar is tempting, but the price is about the same as it was in mid 2008 when I first toyed with upgrading. It may not be rational, but that bugs me enough to almost not buy it. :confused: It should sell for much less now, especially so close to CEDIA.

The Planar is tempting, but the price is about the same as it was in mid 2008 when I first toyed with upgrading. It may not be rational, but that bugs me enough to almost not buy it. :confused: It should sell for much less now, especially so close to CEDIA.

Why? Is it a bad price? It's performance hasn't dropped, and there doesn't appear to be a new model coming out. :confused:

It should be reasonably close to the RS20 price wise (it too is about the same price as it has been it came out).

I'm in a similar boat (but the other way around) - I currently own an FPJ1, and there's an HT3000E that just became available for a very good price, I'm wondering if the sacrifice of on/off CR would be worth the rather large jump in ANSI CR. Any opinions on this? Last DLP machine I owned was an H79, since then it's been 2 RS1's and now the FPJ1.

I'm in a similar boat (but the other way around) - I currently own an FPJ1, and there's an HT3000E that just became available for a very good price, I'm wondering if the sacrifice of on/off CR would be worth the rather large jump in ANSI CR. Any opinions on this? Last DLP machine I owned was an H79, since then it's been 2 RS1's and now the FPJ1.
I'd say it depends on what you like in an image and on whether or not your screen and room conditions will support what you like. What kind of screen do you have and what kind of room conditions do you have? The HT3000E has lots of lumens, but do you like it bright? Do you have a large screen? The HT3000E can have enough ANSI contrast to put impressive dimensionality into the image, but you have to have a decent enough bat cave to allow that. Some screens will support your attempt to get dimensionality better than others. For instance, the popular Firehawk would be much better than the popular High Power.

ANSI contrast measurement has little or no practical value. Unless you are going a full magnitude increase you are just pretending to see a difference. Stop fooling yourself.

I'd say it depends on what you like in an image and on whether or not your screen and room conditions will support what you like. What kind of screen do you have and what kind of room conditions do you have? The HT3000E has lots of lumens, but do you like it bright? Do you have a large screen? The HT3000E can have enough ANSI contrast to put impressive dimensionality into the image, but you have to have a decent enough bat cave to allow that. Some screens will support your attempt to get dimensionality better than others. For instance, the popular Firehawk would be much better than the popular High Power.

My screen is only a 98" diagonal 1.78:1 SW4500 AT screen in a completely light controlled room with dark walls, so I don't need the horsepower of the HT3000e. I've never had a setup that was over 11ftL - which is my current setup - but it seems that people who have 20ftL+ setups really enjoy them, so I'm curious to try it out.

ANSI contrast measurement has little or no practical value. Unless you are going a full magnitude increase you are just pretending to see a difference. Stop fooling yourself.

I've enjoyed my JVC's RS projectors as much as the next guy, however I am also capable of admitting that the HT3000E bests the RS2 in just about every measurable quality - optical quality, panel uniformity, convergence, greyscale accuracy, color accuracy - except on/off CR. Even the BenQ W10000 that I had in my theater for a time - which has anywhere between 2x-3x the ANSI CR of the RS2, depending on whose measurements you use - had a notably different picture that was in many ways better than that of the RS1 that I also owned. So, I'm soliciting advice from people who have actual experience with both machines as to whether the differences amount to a better picture or not. I'm already well aware of your obsession with On/Off CR, however that's not what I was asking about.

I've never had a setup that was over 11ftL - which is my current setup - but it seems that people who have 20ftL+ setups really enjoy them, so I'm curious to try it out.
I love a bright image and many of my local forum friends do as well. Three of them have High Powers. One used to have one, but wanted a wider screen and went with a Studiotek because the Lumis he ordered would be plenty bright without screen gain. That was fine with me, because I got a good deal on his High Power.


So, I'm soliciting advice from people who have actual experience with both machines as to whether the differences amount to a better picture or not.
I have seen maybe five RS1s and an RS2 and now have 721 hours on my RS20, so I do have actual experience with the JVCs.

I have seen an HT3000E on a 100" diagonal 16x9 Firehawk in a showroom and was very impressed by the detail and the dimensionality of the image. I've also seen an HT380E on a High Power in a dark room where I did not notice any better dimensionality than I could see with the RS20 that we were comparing to the HT380E. There were three of us there and the overall consensus was that the RS20 looked better. Half the reason for that was how the combination of the ISCO III in front of the projectors, the screen being a High Power, and the reflections off the rug worked together to weaken the DLP pop and the other half the reason was the RS20's blacks were just so darn impressive and its excellent native contrast affected not just blacks but all colors.

Right after my first of two demos of the HT3000E/Firehawk, I went to another showroom to demo an RS1/Silverstar. Totally opposite experience. No dimensionality, but haunting blacks and over-the-top whites and bright colors at the same time. Two of the most impressive images I have seen, but totally different. It would be ideal to be able to have the best of both worlds. Maybe the Lumis can provide that. I have seen a Lumis and was very impressed by it. It beats the HT3000E in every way and has the most impressive blacks I have seen on a DLP. Unless you are willing to buy a Lumis, though, you have to decide which features mean the most to you.

My experiences were different for the HT3000E and the HT380E, and that's why I asked a few questions earlier to get a feel for your setup, but it sounds like you have the setup to get the most out of the HT3000E. But again, it depends on what features mean the most to you. The black levels of the RS20 go a huge, huge way toward making for an impressive image. So much that I would not recommend the HT3000E over it unless you not only really like what the HT3000E does well, but have the room and the screen to allow it to do so.

Just curious, what kind of price is the HT3000E you are looking at?

ANSI contrast measurement has little or no practical value.

That is quite simply not true. Maybe as a subjective opinion, but as a factual statement you can't back that up.

Unless you are going a full magnitude increase you are just pretending to see a difference.

Isn't "a full magnitude increase" exactly what you're getting when going from a JVC to a good DLP?

Stop fooling yourself.

Stop fooling others. The JVC's are great machines, but there's no reason why we can't be objective about the positive and negative aspects of them compared to other projectors, they are not better than DLP's in every way. They are better in some ways, and worse in others.

(for the record, I know I'm not going to make you change your mind, I'm just delivering some counterweight to what I believe is poor advice, then people can choose for themselves who they want to listen to).

I love a bright image and many of my local forum friends do as well. Three of them have High Powers. One used to have one, but wanted a wider screen and went with a Studiotek because the Lumis he ordered would be plenty bright without screen gain. That was fine with me, because I got a good deal on his High Power.


I have seen maybe five RS1s and an RS2 and now have 721 hours on my RS20, so I do have actual experience with the JVCs.

I have seen an HT3000E on a 100" diagonal 16x9 Firehawk in a showroom and was very impressed by the detail and the dimensionality of the image. I've also seen an HT380E on a High Power in a dark room where I did not notice any better dimensionality than I could see with the RS20 that we were comparing to the HT380E. There were three of us there and the overall consensus was that the RS20 looked better. Half the reason for that was how the combination of the ISCO III in front of the projectors, the screen being a High Power, and the reflections off the rug worked together to weaken the DLP pop and the other half the reason was the RS20's blacks were just so darn impressive and its excellent native contrast affected not just blacks but all colors.

Right after my first of two demos of the HT3000E/Firehawk, I went to another showroom to demo an RS1/Silverstar. Totally opposite experience. No dimensionality, but haunting blacks and over-the-top whites and bright colors at the same time. Two of the most impressive images I have seen, but totally different. It would be ideal to be able to have the best of both worlds. Maybe the Lumis can provide that. I have seen a Lumis and was very impressed by it. It beats the HT3000E in every way and has the most impressive blacks I have seen on a DLP. Unless you are willing to buy a Lumis, though, you have to decide which features mean the most to you.

My experiences were different for the HT3000E and the HT380E, and that's why I asked a few questions earlier to get a feel for your setup, but it sounds like you have the setup to get the most out of the HT3000E. But again, it depends on what features mean the most to you. The black levels of the RS20 go a huge, huge way toward making for an impressive image. So much that I would not recommend the HT3000E over it unless you not only really like what the HT3000E does well, but have the room and the screen to allow it to do so.

Just curious, what kind of price is the HT3000E you are looking at?

Thanks for all the insight, it's greatly appreciated. The blacks and low light performance on the FPJ1/RS2 are hard to steer away from, that's for sure. I'm also thankful enough to have a Radiance to properly dial in its greyscale and gamut.

Unfortunately, a Lumis is currently out of my price range - I'm looking at the HT3000E for sale on V'gon by another AVS Forum member. I've been thinking about possibly switching back from my FPJ1 to DLP, and the HT3000E caught my eye. But, I could have an RS20 for the same price, and frankly I wouldn't find the RS20 worth the $2K premium over what I could sell the FPJ1 for.

Half the reason for that was how the combination of the ISCO III in front of the projectors, the screen being a High Power, and the reflections off the rug worked together to weaken the DLP pop

A correctly installed ISCOIII has no such effect.

It simply has a 3%-4% light loss due to its nominal transmittance of 96%. This is not visible to the naked eye.

The effect on ANSI CR is almost nil. There have been erroneous reports claiming it had a large effect on ANSI, that has been categorically proven to be wrong.

It has been tested to below the margin of error for ANSI reporting.

Looking for opinions of anny former DLP FP owners that like the "pop" and sharpeness of DLP that made the switch to an RS10/20.

The truth is that you should see for yourself any projector that you are interested in purchasing. If you can't find a dealer, post on the owners' thread asking if someone near you could demo theirs for you. Most people here are great about things like that.

There are a lot of opinions around here. They are all based on certain objective facts, but like any opinion, they ultimately come down to a subjective preference and then the facts are rearranged in the light most favorable to that preference. There is also a lot of flat out bias disguised as fact but no one would admit to it because no one likes to see that they are biased. Then, add in the myths that can never be disproved no matter the proof. Very frustrating. We are all objective scientists here!

You have asked for opinions so I will give you mine. I have owned dlp, D-ILA and LCD projectors. I currently own an RS20. Before that, I owned an RS1 and before that I owned a Sharp 12k. I still own a Mitsu HD-1500 projector but consider that a toy. My experience with the JVCs has been very good. The JVCs offer a very three dimensional picture in most kinds of scenes. So, there is plenty of the "pop" that you are looking for. Good DLPs will have an edge where there are more equal portions of light and dark in the same image. JVCs will have an edge as dark material becomes predominant. This is an oversimplification but it is essentially true. I believe that most films benefit from lots of on/off contrast because directors like to make use of lots of light and shadow to add atmosphere. I think that the JVCs are best in these kinds of scenes. They are still not perfect.

You can see where my bias lies so I will take things a step further. People make the case that the JVCs are poor performers in various test patterns. These test patterns are designed to isolate sharpness or things relating to sharpness and there is no question that good DLPs have an edge over the JVCs. I have thought all along from my RS1 days that the JVCs were sharp. The RS20 has a better lens but it is not much sharper than my RS1 was. When I say sharp, I mean sharp. I do not mean unsharp so, yes, the JVC are sharp. If you bury your face in your screen and look at pixels you will see a dramatic difference. If you sit a normal distance from your screen and watch movies, I don't think that there is much difference. Reasonable people will disagree or feel that the amount of sharpness that the JVC's provide is not what they are looking for. Fine.

People also mention uniformity. RS1s had poor dark screen uniformity that was mostly visible on fade to blacks. The corners were brighter than the center of the screen. The newer JVC have "solved" this problem. By "solved" I mean that dark fields appear to be completely uniform, even on fade to blacks. People take measurements and claim that this is not so, that they are measuring differences. I don't see it and judging from posts from other JVC owners, they don't see it either.

DLPs went through a phase where they really fell behind the JVCs, particularly in on/off contrast. They are now more competitive because TI has developed and many projectors now implement a dynamic iris. I am sure that if I owned a Planar 8150 or others like it, it would be an improvement in some areas and a step back in others.

There is a good chance that I will own a DLP in the future but it will take real gains in on/off contrast to make me make the switch. People have speculated that TI is getting there and I hope that they are right.

I've enjoyed my JVC's RS projectors as much as the next guy, however I am also capable of admitting that the HT3000E bests the RS2 in just about every measurable quality - optical quality, panel uniformity, convergence, greyscale accuracy, color accuracy - except on/off CR. Even the BenQ W10000 that I had in my theater for a time - which has anywhere between 2x-3x the ANSI CR of the RS2, depending on whose measurements you use - had a notably different picture that was in many ways better than that of the RS1 that I also owned. So, I'm soliciting advice from people who have actual experience with both machines as to whether the differences amount to a better picture or not. I'm already well aware of your obsession with On/Off CR, however that's not what I was asking about.

The HT3000E is arguably the best DLP made (sans 3 chip). But, at a big premium as well so it makes comparing a tough pill to swallow for many.

Why? Is it a bad price? It's performance hasn't dropped, and there doesn't appear to be a new model coming out. :confused:

It should be reasonably close to the RS20 price wise (it too is about the same price as it has been it came out).

The Planar is almost 2 years old, a generation in this business. Even though they may not plan a new model, the industry is not standing still and others are catching up and/or surpassing the Planar, so it's relative value is decreasing while it's absolute price has not fallen.

A late cycle or old product should normally drop in price, not stay constant. It's Planar decision to stick to a distribution model that makes this a low volume niche product. IMHO, it's a mistake. Thay already have Runco and Vidikron as boutique brands. They should target more distribution with Planar.

The JVC is already showing signs of price pressure as CEDIA gets closer. Prices are dropping.

All things being equal (however they never are) I would not buy the Planar and pay what I perceive as an artificial premium.


The truth is that you should see for yourself any projector that you are interested in purchasing. If you can't find a dealer, post on the owners' thread asking if someone near you could demo theirs for you. Most people here are great about things like that.

There are a lot of opinions around here. They are all based on certain objective facts, but like any opinion, they ultimately come down to a subjective preference and then the facts are rearranged in the light most favorable to that preference. There is also a lot of flat out bias disguised as fact but no one would admit to it because no one likes to see that they are biased. Then, add in the myths that can never be disproved no matter the proof. Very frustrating. We are all objective scientists here!

You have asked for opinions so I will give you mine. I have owned dlp, D-ILA and LCD projectors. I currently own an RS20. Before that, I owned an RS1 and before that I owned a Sharp 12k. I still own a Mitsu HD-1500 projector but consider that a toy. My experience with the JVCs has been very good. The JVCs offer a very three dimensional picture in most kinds of scenes. So, there is plenty of the "pop" that you are looking for. Good DLPs will have an edge where there are more equal portions of light and dark in the same image. JVCs will have an edge as dark material becomes predominant. This is an oversimplification but it is essentially true. I believe that most films benefit from lots of on/off contrast because directors like to make use of lots of light and shadow to add atmosphere. I think that the JVCs are best in these kinds of scenes. They are still not perfect.

You can see where my bias lies so I will take things a step further. People make the case that the JVCs are poor performers in various test patterns. These test patterns are designed to isolate sharpness or things relating to sharpness and there is no question that good DLPs have an edge over the JVCs. I have thought all along from my RS1 days that the JVCs were sharp. The RS20 has a better lens but it is not much sharper than my RS1 was. When I say sharp, I mean sharp. I do not mean unsharp so, yes, the JVC are sharp. If you bury your face in your screen and look at pixels you will see a dramatic difference. If you sit a normal distance from your screen and watch movies, I don't think that there is much difference. Reasonable people will disagree or feel that the amount of sharpness that the JVC's provide is not what they are looking for. Fine.

People also mention uniformity. RS1s had poor dark screen uniformity that was mostly visible on fade to blacks. The corners were brighter than the center of the screen. The newer JVC have "solved" this problem. By "solved" I mean that dark fields appear to be completely uniform, even on fade to blacks. People take measurements and claim that this is not so, that they are measuring differences. I don't see it and judging from posts from other JVC owners, they don't see it either.

DLPs went through a phase where they really fell behind the JVCs, particularly in on/off contrast. They are now more competitive because TI has developed and many projectors now implement a dynamic iris. I am sure that if I owned a Planar 8150 or others like it, it would be an improvement in some areas and a step back in others.

There is a good chance that I will own a DLP in the future but it will take real gains in on/off contrast to make me make the switch. People have speculated that TI is getting there and I hope that they are right.

Thanks Lawguy, that's a very infromative post. And yes I did ask for opinions :)

I know its based on past memory, but can you add any insight to your RS20 compared to the Sharp 12K you had. It was a sharp picture, but from my memory, more had more video noise than a Sony LCOS projector I saw. I'm familiar with the picture on that one.

Sounds like peopel are generally happy with their RS's? It's too bad there are so few sub $5K DLPs out there, other than say the Optoma which has it's own issues.

Isn't "a full magnitude increase" exactly what you're getting when going from a JVC to a good DLP?




magnitude difference is 300:1 to 3000:1

The Planar is almost 2 years old, a generation in this business. Even though they may not plan a new model, the industry is not standing still and others are catching up and/or surpassing the Planar, so it's relative value is decreasing while it's absolute price has not fallen.

After seeing one, I frankly think it must have been a generation ahead when it came out.

A late cycle or old product should normally drop in price, not stay constant. It's Planar decision to stick to a distribution model that makes this a low volume niche product. IMHO, it's a mistake. Thay already have Runco and Vidikron as boutique brands. They should target more distribution with Planar.

I agree it's unfortunate (for those like us on this forum) that they've targetted the CI market, but their distribution model isn't that much different than JVCs. And as far as the price goes, unless JVC pulls something amazing out of their hat with the HD950 (like they've done in the past), IMO the 8150 is still very competitive today.

I've had the same thoughts about URC's distribution model. I agree it's frustrating at times. That said, I wouldn't trade my MX880 or my 8150 for anything else on the market (in their price range).

All things being equal (however they never are) I would not buy the Planar and pay what I perceive as an artificial premium.

That's your prerogative, and your loss. Or maybe you need to talk to AV Science about a Planar....

The HT3000E is arguably the best DLP made (sans 3 chip). But, at a big premium as well so it makes comparing a tough pill to swallow for many.

Do you have a personal preference for one over the other? I know it's an apples to oranges comparison. It seems that the consensus is that the JVC - be it an RS2 or RS20 - does better with dark material, however in scenes with lots of mixed bright/dark material, the HT3000E has the edge. This is of course ignoring the significant difference in brightness, optics, convergence, etc.

Jason is a DLP fan. ;) I won't answer for him, but...









Cough Cough HT3000E... :)

magnitude difference is 300:1 to 3000:1

would a magnitude of difference be...

50,000:1 to 150,000:1?

I know its based on past memory, but can you add any insight to your RS20 compared to the Sharp 12K you had. It was a sharp picture, but from my memory, more had more video noise than a Sony LCOS projector I saw. I'm familiar with the picture on that one.

I'll add what I remember but the thoughts that stick out most in my mind is the comparison between the Sharp 20k and the RS1. I extensively compared the two. At the time, I liked the 12k having owned it so I thought that the 20k was a natural upgrade. The RS1 won me over in spite of its bright corners, inaccurate colors and gamma issues (the RS1's gamma presets did the RS1 no favors because it did not permit higher gammas that greatly increased picture dimensionality). In short, I preferred the RS1 over the Sharp 20k because of the RS1's much better dark scene performance, which again, I believe really benefits mosts films. I later added a Lumagen to the RS1, which improved picture quality considerably by permitting gamma adjustments and color correction.

The Sharps were great projectors for their time but their good on/off contrast performance came at the expense of lumens. I never thought the 12k was dim until I replaced it with the RS1. Today's DLPs provide better lumens and contrast performance so you really don't have that choice to make today that I did then.

I find very little to complain about with the RS20 that could really be corrected with any other available PJ. I would love substantially more on/off contrast with true fade to blacks but nothing yet can do that. I would like to see what more ANSI contrast would do for D-ILA, if it is even possible. I find that the RS20 has a very dimensional picture in most kinds of scenes. Would more dimensionality be unnatural looking? I don't know.

I feel like, at the moment, JVC projectors are really good projectors for the price. You can spend a lot more on a projector and the JVC will still be better in many areas including some important areas. People feel this same way about other projectors, both more and less expensive, so this is just my opinion.

The Sharps were great projectors for their time but their good on/off contrast performance came at the expense of lumens. I never thought the 12k was dim until I replaced it with the RS1.
I had the same experience with the Sharp 12K. It was so dim for my tastes as the bulb aged even a little that I had to switch projectors pretty quickly. The Sharp 12K was the dimmest of the four digital projectors I have owned. The 12K had a 270W bulb, while the 20K had a 220W bulb, so the 20K may have been even dimmer, even though the manufacturer's lumens rating was the same.

ANSI contrast measurement has little or no practical value.


Not that I think there will be many, but anyone who accepts that statement to be true is even more deluded than the person who made it.

My screen is only a 98" diagonal 1.78:1 SW4500 AT screen in a completely light controlled room with dark walls, so I don't need the horsepower of the HT3000e. I've never had a setup that was over 11ftL - which is my current setup - but it seems that people who have 20ftL+ setups really enjoy them, so I'm curious to try it out.

" Once You've Watched Bright, Dim Won't Look Right " ( TM pending ) ;)

My dVision 1080p was 16 - 18 foot lamberts, and my current Lumis, at it's dimmest settings, is about 20 FL. Bright projectors show more flaws in source material at times. but overall the picture just looks so much better!! Much more vibrant and punchier ! " Perfect " Blu Ray transfers are just wonderful looking.

I'm in a similar boat (but the other way around) - I currently own an FPJ1, and there's an HT3000E that just became available for a very good price, I'm wondering if the sacrifice of on/off CR would be worth the rather large jump in ANSI CR. Any opinions on this? Last DLP machine I owned was an H79, since then it's been 2 RS1's and now the FPJ1.

It's a tradeoff as far as I'm concerned. Comparing my dVision to an RS1 and RS2, I still preferred my dVision's picture overall - much sharper, brighter and more " pop ". So, you might be pleased with the HT3000E.

Craig,

Thanks for the great feedback. At this point I'm deciding whether or not I want to trade the dark scene performance for the significantly brighter picture, and the inevitable increase in black level (and how much I'll notice it) that will come from a 3x increase in brightness.

Anyone who accepts that statement to be true is even more deluded than the person who made it.

My comment to that is...

Anyone who accepts that statement to be true is even more deluded than the person who made it.... lol!




P.S. no one is more deluded then Tryg. :)

Craig. You coming in here talking about your Lumis is like a Ferrari owner posting in a Mustang forum.....

Sorry...pure jealousy.

Thanks for all the insight, it's greatly appreciated. The blacks and low light performance on the FPJ1/RS2 are hard to steer away from, that's for sure. I'm also thankful enough to have a Radiance to properly dial in its greyscale and gamut.

Unfortunately, a Lumis is currently out of my price range - I'm looking at the HT3000E for sale on V'gon by another AVS Forum member. I've been thinking about possibly switching back from my FPJ1 to DLP, and the HT3000E caught my eye. But, I could have an RS20 for the same price, and frankly I wouldn't find the RS20 worth the $2K premium over what I could sell the FPJ1 for.
So you can get an HT3000E for a much lower price than maybe any of us would have expected and have the sale of the FPJ1 pay for a good portion of it? Here is one thing to consider: do you think the price of the HT3000E is good enough that you could turn it over and sell it in six months for what you paid for it if you decided you wanted to go with a JVC (maybe after reading about all the improvements from the new JVCs :confused:), and then you at least have the experience of what it is like to have an HT3000E for a while with no financial hit?

You could probably find some local forum members who would like to compare an HT3000E to their RS20s if you did buy it.

Craig,

Thanks for the great feedback. At this point I'm deciding whether or not I want to trade the dark scene performance for the significantly brighter picture, and the inevitable increase in black level (and how much I'll notice it) that will come from a 3x increase in brightness.
Keep in mind that upgrading from the FPJ1 to the RS20 would also give you a brighter image. The new JVCs may be even brighter.

Craig,

Thanks for the great feedback. At this point I'm deciding whether or not I want to trade the dark scene performance for the significantly brighter picture, and the inevitable increase in black level (and how much I'll notice it) that will come from a 3x increase in brightness.

There are always tradeoffs, even with a Lumis ( in which case it's money ).

Craig. You coming in here talking about your Lumis is like a Ferrari owner posting in a Mustang forum.....

Sorry...pure jealousy.

I guess I owe you a movie and some good wine now......

You should inquire at your local SIM2 dealer - you might find a Lumis more affordable than you think ( or not - YMMV ).

So you can get an HT3000E for a much lower price than maybe any of us would have expected and have the sale of the FPJ1 pay for a good portion of it? Here is one thing to consider: do you think the price of the HT3000E is good enough that you could turn it over and sell it in six months for what you paid for it if you decided you wanted to go with a JVC (maybe after reading about all the improvements from the new JVCs :confused:), and then you at least have the experience of what it is like to have an HT3000E for a while with no financial hit?

You could probably find some local forum members who would like to compare an HT3000E to their RS20s if you did buy it.

Duh, I didn't even think of that aspect - great question :) Yes I have no doubt I could turn around and sell the HT3000E for what I paid for it, especially at the low rate at which I use my PJs (wouldn't put much time in the bulb).

Keep in mind that upgrading from the FPJ1 to the RS20 would also give you a brighter image. The new JVCs may be even brighter.

True, with equalized CR the RS20 would definitely be brighter - not as bright as the HT3000E, but as you stated this may change with the new batch of JVC's.

I think the big point is the first one you made above - as long as I don't lose money on the deal, trying out the Sim2 is really a no-brainer. Thanks!

Jason is a DLP fan. ;) I won't answer for him, but...









Cough Cough HT3000E... :)

Self admitted DLP guy. But, I also run a JVC right now. I have an appreciation for everything, but simple fact is the HT3000E is the best single chip I have seen (and the most expensive). :)

I have an appreciation for everything, but simple fact is the HT3000E is the best single chip I have seen (and the most expensive).

Obviously you need to see my dVision 1080p then. ;)

Who says I haven't? :)

Why do you guys have multiple projectors each??? lol!

Spread the wealth! :)

When you discuss the black level performance of the JVC's, also consider the less than perfect shadow detail and motion that some report. May not be properly calibrated, or just their sensitivity to things.....or may be true. Demo.

I for one am looking for something that will improve motion with 24fps material while still maintaining the film look and feel. So a PJ that has some function that addresses motion is a plus for me.

The Planar is almost 2 years old, a generation in this business. Even though they may not plan a new model, the industry is not standing still and others are catching up and/or surpassing the Planar, so it's relative value is decreasing while it's absolute price has not fallen.

A late cycle or old product should normally drop in price, not stay constant. It's Planar decision to stick to a distribution model that makes this a low volume niche product. IMHO, it's a mistake. Thay already have Runco and Vidikron as boutique brands. They should target more distribution with Planar.

The JVC is already showing signs of price pressure as CEDIA gets closer. Prices are dropping.

All things being equal (however they never are) I would not buy the Planar and pay what I perceive as an artificial premium.



The Planar has fallen they did a price drop of $1k some months ago. I think it is still a great value for the picture.

Nate

That is a sweet deal on the 3000E I would try it if I had the money.

Well I guess I'll just have to answer the question myself. Jason made me an offer on an RS10 I could not refuse. I bought it on the spot.

So I just ordered an Oppo BDP-83 and will see if I can set it up next weekend.

Decided against the premium on the RS20 so I can upgrade faster next time. It makes it easier not to wait for CEDIA either. It would have probably meant mid to end of October if I waited.

Thanks as always!

Thanks for all the insight, it's greatly appreciated. The blacks and low light performance on the FPJ1/RS2 are hard to steer away from, that's for sure. I'm also thankful enough to have a Radiance to properly dial in its greyscale and gamut.

Unfortunately, a Lumis is currently out of my price range - I'm looking at the HT3000E for sale on V'gon by another AVS Forum member. I've been thinking about possibly switching back from my FPJ1 to DLP, and the HT3000E caught my eye. But, I could have an RS20 for the same price, and frankly I wouldn't find the RS20 worth the $2K premium over what I could sell the FPJ1 for.

Just as an aside, an HT3000E for $5k sounds suspicious. It is a $20k list projector so if it is really going for $5k, it is either defective, or a non-E version (which is my guess and the seller wasn't aware there is a difference---and there IS a difference...big one).

"magnitude difference is 300:1 to 3000:1"

Semantic ambiguity aside ("order of magnitude" is the defined term), it's outlandish to claim that it takes a 10X difference in CR to be appreciable.

2X is more like it.

*

Yes, I was talking about Ccool96's projector, and no, I could not pass up a deal that good on a machine like that. I've always dreamed of owning a Sim2, I just didn't think it would be this soon! Once I get it calibrated up, I can run it simultaneously with the FPJ1 and post some subjective and objective comparisons (maybe some screen shots for gee-whiz factor) for those who are curious.

Edit: Does anyone definitively know whether the HT3000E is a DC4 or DC3 machine? Projectorcentral.com says it's a DC3, but I thought I saw a post from Jason categorizing it as DC4. Ultimately it doesn't matter to me, just curious :)

"magnitude difference is 300:1 to 3000:1"

Semantic ambiguity aside ("order of magnitude" is the defined term), it's outlandish to claim that it takes a 10X difference in CR to be appreciable.

2X is more like it.

Depends where you start from.

magnitude difference is 300:1 to 3000:1

OK, thanks for that clarification. In that case, I don't agree that you need a magnitude of difference for it to be noticable.

Would you say that the same is true for on/off? That you need a magnitude of difference for it to be noticable?

Edit: Does anyone definitively know whether the HT3000E is a DC4 or DC3 machine? Projectorcentral.com says it's a DC3, but I thought I saw a post from Jason categorizing it as DC4. Ultimately it doesn't matter to me, just curious :)

I believe the HT3000 H.O.S.T. is a DC4, the HT3000E is DC3.

I also jumped on the great deal offered by Jason on the RS10. I get mine today and will be hooked up to the Oppo Blu ray. My system is set and can't wait for the rs10 arrival just in time for football

Yes, I was talking about Ccool96's projector, and no, I could not pass up a deal that good on a machine like that. I've always dreamed of owning a Sim2, I just didn't think it would be this soon! Once I get it calibrated up, I can run it simultaneously with the FPJ1 and post some subjective and objective comparisons (maybe some screen shots for gee-whiz factor) for those who are curious.



Great, it looks like we both switched technologies and got something new. If you don't like it, and I don't like mine... PM me :D

It is my projector that is listed on Videogon. It is definitely a "HT3000E" . It has about 290 hours on the original lamp. The only reason i am unloading it for as cheap as i am, is because i already ordered another DP projector. I ordered a DP Dvision30-1080p just for the extra lumens on my rear-projection setup. The Sim2 is great but during the day the boost in lumens would really make a difference. At this point having a Sim2 projector sitting in the closet doesn't make much sense.

Honestly, didnt think i would get alot more for it seeing how fast things depreciate. Well as long as it makes a fellow AVSer happy, then its all good.

Pics of it are on my Home Theater Build forum.

If I had the cash I would buy it. :) That is an incredibly aggressive price...

Great, it looks like we both switched technologies and got something new. If you don't like it, and I don't like mine... PM me :D

Ha, thanks for letting me hijack your thread - I'm really looking forward to see the difference. I'm sure you'll love the RS10, I know how much I like my FPJ1, and everything I've read about the RS10 seems to be a step up from that.

If I had the cash I would buy it. :) That is an incredibly aggressive price...

I'm 2 weeks out from my wedding and I just shelled out serious bucks for a PJ. I don't know if my fiancee would agree that I/we "have the cash" right now, but as you said - this is too good of a deal to pass up!

Just explain it is your wedding gift to her... :)

Just explain it is your wedding gift to her... :)

HA! That gave me a good laugh - I can picture the look on her face as I say that line...VERY sound advice, thanks Jason :)

Of course you may then find yourself not getting married...

You: "Here you go honey! I got you a top of the line projector for our wedding!".
Fiance: "You don't truly know who I am as a person... Waaaah".

Can you tell I just had my 10 year wedding anniversary? :D

HA! That gave me a good laugh - I can picture the look on her face as I say that line...VERY sound advice, thanks Jason :)
Nah, give here the FPJ1 and then you can apply the cash you would have spent on a wedding gift to pay for the HT3000E. "I know it's not new, dear, but believe me it's better that way. It will be broken in, just like the one I bought over the internet two weeks ago."

If I had the cash I would buy it. :) That is an incredibly aggressive price...I thought about the deal, too, if HogPilot didn't want it. Problem is, I have only 15 feet of throw distance and that particular HT3000E comes with a T2 lens. I have a 49" by 115" 2.35 AR High Power, which I expect would be too big for the image size I could get at that throw distance with that lens. The zoom method would probably be out of the question.

Plus, the RS20 I bought from you eight months ago is so nice. :)

Ha, thanks for letting me hijack your thread - I'm really looking forward to see the difference. I'm sure you'll love the RS10, I know how much I like my FPJ1, and everything I've read about the RS10 seems to be a step up from that.



I'm 2 weeks out from my wedding and I just shelled out $5K for a PJ. I don't know if my fiancee would agree that I/we "have the cash" right now, but as you said - this is too good of a deal to pass up!

too funny. i've seen a few toys i've wanted to buy but i'm getting married on September 5th so i've been holding off. i know the fiancee would flip if i brought home a new projector right now...

Maybe AVS should start a new section..........."Whipped".:)

too funny. i've seen a few toys i've wanted to buy but i'm getting married on September 5th so i've been holding off. i know the fiancee would flip if i brought home a new projector right now...

That's when I'm getting married too. Thankfully I'm a VERY lucky guy, and my wife-to-be has shown infinite patience with my constant HT buy-sell-buy cycle. She was also incredibly supportive when I moved out of my downtown apartment to move in with her, and I had to dismantle my 11' wide scope HT - she actually encouraged me to put a theater in her basement (albeit a smaller 7' wide 16:9 one, but a theater nonetheless). So when I told her about the HT3000E, it was par for the course - she told me that she still loves me, but that she's pretty sure I'm crazy. I didn't disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk
Just explain it is your wedding gift to her...

HA! That gave me a good laugh - I can picture the look on her face as I say that line...VERY sound advice, thanks Jason

I used the " it's a wedding gift to us " line when I bought our Lumis, when we got married in May. It didn't work, but I still used it............ ;)

Congrats Hogpilot!

Im glad to know its going to a good home! Hope the price doesn't stop the wedding ;)

Tell her you bought it instead of tipping strippers at the Bachelor Party.

It is amazing and I really hated to get rid of it. I never sell anything but it seems so wasteful just sitting around.

Congrats Hogpilot!

Im glad to know its going to a good home! Hope the price doesn't stop the wedding ;)

Tell her you bought it instead of tipping strippers at the Bachelor Party.

It is amazing and I really hated to get rid of it. I never sell anything but it seems so wasteful just sitting around.

I have never seen strippers classy enough to work for that kind of tip...and I've seen some pretty classy ones! Maybe I haven't spent enough time in Vegas for that...

For those of you getting married and have a mandatory projector purchase...This is what you do:

Get Married

When wife leaves, set up the PJ

when wife arrives play a dvd of your wedding. Have candle lights, aroma therapy, chocolates and then play one of her favorite movies...gotta be a chick flick.


That's how you do it

It's not that complicated. All you have to remember is this little piece of advice:


It is easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission.


Words to live by for the married HT enthusiast. ;)

Wow this thread went to crap.
But I'll jump in

Movie: You, Me, and Dupree
Seth Rogan as Neil
Neil: Hey how late are you guys allowed to stay up anyway? I used to get Midnight.
Neil: Guys, you know I'm not allowed to have friends over on weeknights.

too funny. i've seen a few toys i've wanted to buy but i'm getting married on September 5th so i've been holding off. i know the fiancee would flip if i brought home a new projector right now...

Sheesh, BEFORE the wedding seems the perfect time to splurge. It will only get worse after the wedding. Before the wedding it is still "your" money.

Sheesh, BEFORE the wedding seems the perfect time to splurge. It will only get worse after the wedding. Before the wedding it is still "your" money.Sorry, the wedding is just a formality. It stopped being "his money" the day he popped the question!

You're obviously not viewing this from the prospective of the bride! :D

Maybe AVS should start a new section..........."Whipped".:)

I'd be the CEO. :)

Er...my wife would be. :D

I have never seen strippers classy enough to work for that kind of tip...and I've seen some pretty classy ones! Maybe I haven't spent enough time in Vegas for that...Stripper and Classy in the same sentence?? Define a "classy stripper" :confused:

Define a "classy stripper" :confused:

One that doesn't fart when bending over in front of you.:D

Married 17 years ... and we agreed a looong time ago that HT budget = jewellery budget. Easy ;)

One that doesn't fart when bending over in front of you.:D

It depends on if you paid for that or not!

Wow this thread went to crap.
But I'll jump in





And getting deeper by the minute. :)
Read my sig when it comes to being married.

OK, thanks for that clarification. In that case, I don't agree that you need a magnitude of difference for it to be noticable.

Would you say that the same is true for on/off? That you need a magnitude of difference for it to be noticable?


This is not true for ON/OFF constrast. Changes is ON/OFF are very evident and easily measurable.

Some of those that think ANSI contrast is a valuable measurement should actually do some testing...instead of just spewing effluvium.

This is not true for ON/OFF constrast. Changes is ON/OFF are very evident and easily measurable.

Some of those that think ANSI contrast is a valuable measurement should actually do some testing...instead of just spewing effluvium.

WHAT THE @@@@??? ;) -hehe


16ftL Full on

0.001 Full off

=

16,000:1 on/off

VS.

16ftL Full on

0.0005 Full off

=

32,000:1 on/off


"Every other spec the same."

If you think this will make a very evident change in the image look, your Tryg... :)

PS. Maybe during a full black out scene... Maybe :)

This is not true for ON/OFF constrast. Changes is ON/OFF are very evident and easily measurable.

Some of those that think ANSI contrast is a valuable measurement should actually do some testing...instead of just spewing effluvium.

Can you share your ANSI testing numbers accompanied by various observer's perception of change (or lack thereof) in the image? Once I get the HT3000E I'll be very interested on how the images compare with my FPJ1, and I'll post some observations to that effect. If I can come up with a reliable way for measuring ANSI, I'll post those numbers as well.

My FPJ1 has almost double the contrast that my RS1 had, and I find that the increase in On/Off only negligibly impacted PQ. There is a difference if I look for it, but it's not readily apparent during normal viewing.

Some of those that think ANSI contrast is a valuable measurement should actually do some testing...instead of just spewing effluvium.

Maybe you should actually have a clue regarding the subject matter........instead of just using Cowpers fluid as a mouthwash.

Maybe you should actually have a clue regarding the subject matter........instead of just using Cowpers fluid as a mouthwash.

:D

That made me laugh out loud, thanks.

I received the HT3000E today - thanks to ccool96 for the quick shipping, it arrived quickly and in once piece! I haven't had a chance to calibrate the Sim2 aside from setting the brightness and contrast, the gamma to E5 (from reading the manual I'm assuming that's around 2.2?), and the white point to D65 in the color management menu. However, I do have some initial impressions after doing some very subjective A/B'ing between my FPJ1 and the Sim2:


the Sim2 is definitely brighter than the FPJ1, and I do enjoy the brighter picture
the Sim2's black levels are also expectedly higher than the FPJ1's, but they're not egregiously so and it doesn't become apparent except in mostly or all-black scenes
the Sim2 is set to a gamma of 2.2 (or as best as I can eyeball), while the FPJ1 is set to 2.5; this coupled with its higher light output gives the Sim2 the appearance of slightly better shadow detail - it's actually making me think about setting the FPJ1's gamma back to 2.2 not only for comparison purposes, but for a picture that better suits my tastes
the Sim2 is SHARP, but you can make out individual pixels at ridiculously close viewing distances, as opposed to the FPJ1 which has almost almost no visible pixel gap
the Sim2 doesn't have the FPJ1's (or any 3-chipper's) panel misalignment issues; in addition to its almost complete lack of CA across the screen, this helps increase the Sim2's apparent sharpness as compared to the FPJ1
my biggest surprise is the complete lack of RBE when viewing real-world material - I'm very sensitive to this and I never saw it once when I wasn't trying hard to induce it with a test pattern.


As I explained to Chris, unfortunately my woven DIY AT screen material isn't angled quite enough, which induces some noticeable moire that requires the projector to be slightly defocused. With the FPJ1, the almost complete lack of SDE helps with this issue, whereas the Sim2 is very definitely sharp and has a little more space between pixels, so the amount of defocusing required to get rid of most of the moire does soften the image. This is obviously a limitation of my screen material and is no fault of the Sim2's, however I'm hoping that it doesn't end up being a deal-breaker with keeping the HT3000E.

Overall I'm very impressed with the Sim2, it's a great machine and I look forward to spending some more critical time with it once I've calibrated it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=151118&stc=1&d=1251416462

Overall I'm very impressed with the Sim2, it's a great machine and I look forward to spending some more critical time with it once I've calibrated it.

Thanks for the initial impressions. Enjoy the SIM !!

I've enjoyed my JVC's RS projectors as much as the next guy, however I am also capable of admitting that the HT3000E bests the RS2 in just about every measurable quality - optical quality, panel uniformity, convergence, greyscale accuracy, color accuracy - except on/off CR.

Greyscale and color accuracy can be tweaked to dang near perfection on the RS20 with it's full CMS controls. The OP was asking about the current JVC's, not the older RS2 and RS1. I don't disagree with what you are saying, just stating that the latest JVC has awesome color and greyscale.

Personally, I will never buy another front projector that doesn't allow me full control of the greyscale and primary and secondary color adjustments, and full gamma control. Having seen what a projector looks like out of the box, versus fully calibrated with CMS controls, it's clear that much of the performance of a projector is left on the table out of the box.

Something to take into consideration with any projector, DLP, LCOS, or LCD

Dan

I received the HT3000E today - thanks to ccool96 for the quick shipping, it arrived quickly and in once piece! I haven't had a chance to calibrate the Sim2 aside from setting the brightness and contrast, the gamma to E5 (from reading the manual I'm assuming that's around 2.2?), and the white point to D65 in the color management menu. However, I do have some initial impressions after doing some very subjective A/B'ing between my FPJ1 and the Sim2:


the Sim2 is definitely brighter than the FPJ1, and I do enjoy the brighter picture
the Sim2's black levels are also expectedly higher than the FPJ1's, but they're not egregiously so and it doesn't become apparent except in mostly or all-black scenes
the Sim2 is set to a gamma of 2.2 (or as best as I can eyeball), while the FPJ1 is set to 2.5; this coupled with its higher light output gives the Sim2 the appearance of slightly better shadow detail - it's actually making me think about setting the FPJ1's gamma back to 2.2 not only for comparison purposes, but for a picture that better suits my tastes
the Sim2 is SHARP, but you can make out individual pixels at ridiculously close viewing distances, as opposed to the FPJ1 which has almost almost no visible pixel gap
the Sim2 doesn't have the FPJ1's (or any 3-chipper's) panel misalignment issues; in addition to its almost complete lack of CA across the screen, this helps increase the Sim2's apparent sharpness as compared to the FPJ1
my biggest surprise is the complete lack of RBE when viewing real-world material - I'm very sensitive to this and I never saw it once when I wasn't trying hard to induce it with a test pattern.


As I explained to Chris, unfortunately my woven DIY AT screen material isn't angled quite enough, which induces some noticeable moire that requires the projector to be slightly defocused. With the FPJ1, the almost complete lack of SDE helps with this issue, whereas the Sim2 is very definitely sharp and has a little more space between pixels, so the amount of defocusing required to get rid of most of the moire does soften the image. This is obviously a limitation of my screen material and is no fault of the Sim2's, however I'm hoping that it doesn't end up being a deal-breaker with keeping the HT3000E.

Overall I'm very impressed with the Sim2, it's a great machine and I look forward to spending some more critical time with it once I've calibrated it.



Sounds like it's not the projector for you. Send me a PM and I'll help you get rid of it. :) :)

Scott

Greyscale and color accuracy can be tweaked to dang near perfection on the RS20 with it's full CMS controls. The OP was asking about the current JVC's, not the older RS2 and RS1.

Absolutely - the RS20 sounds like an awesome machine now that its CMS is working as advertised. My comment was purely in reply to something Tryg said, not anything the OP was asking about.

Sounds like it's not the projector for you. Send me a PM and I'll help you get rid of it. :) :)

Scott

Too funny! :)

One that doesn't fart when bending over in front of you.:D

That reminds me of a (not really that) funny story that is propbably best not related here!