Hey Guys -

I just got my new Dali Ikon 6 speakers (2 of them), the rest of the set is coming, once I fork up the rest of the cash...

First off, I want to say I am so sorry if this is the wrong topic thread, however, I did not know where else to ask this question since there is no "exact" label that I could find...

Question: What sort of speaker cables should I use to connect these? And Is it worth to Bi-wire these? And will it count if I go all out and get top of the line speaker cables, such as the Nirvana audio S-X ltds speaker cableshttp://www.nirvanaaudio.com/products.html...


Or if there would be no difference with these nirvana speaker cables (if I bi wired speakers, im going bankrupt:D), whats the difference with copper speaker calbes and silver speaker cables? I want to listen to music and movies...I listen to rock, pop, grunge, all kinds of music, but I dont like the bass and midrange taking over the singers voice which is why I love the dali ikon (I heard silver cables help "define" the treble, not sure though), .. (ps. im not an "expert audiofile" and I might of describged this wrong)
thanks guys

Most folks on this site don't subscribe to mind set of cables improving there over all sound, so I would suggest hearing for yourself, and seeing if do hear a difference.. Trust you ears, and don't let anyone tell you what it is that you hear...



Good luck


Djoel

12 AWG multi-stranded. BiWire ... a waste. BiAmp, Ok.
Difference between copper and silver .... cost and dealer profit.
Bass and mid-range taking over is either poor room acoustics, bad placement, poor calibration or rotten speaker design.

You been drinking that blue smoke Koolaid again?

:)

Electrical dept at HD or Lowe's. 14-12 awg SJO bulk spooled power cable or just buy an extension cord and cut the plugs off. Also the 12 awg outdoor cable for malibu lights is quite popular.

There is no measurable, hearable difference except you when saying "OUCH!" while looking at an empty wallet from getting suckered into buying pretty speaker cables.

The color of conductors means zilch. All the hype you read/hear is just that. sales hype.

thanks guys

I guess Ill have to get new speaker cables, since I only have 16 gauge mosnter CL speaker wires right now...

this forum rules:)

thanks guys

I guess Ill have to get new speaker cables, since I only have 16 gauge mosnter CL speaker wires right now...

this forum rules:)

16 gauge may be fine, depending on the speaker impedance and the distance. See this article.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

While I would never recommend buying from the lying dirtbags at Monster Cable, since you already own them, there's no reason to replace them if they're adequate to the task.

I can never figure out how so many people in here have such a hatred for good quality cabling and wire. To say that lamp cord sounds the same as a well crafted speaker cable is Total Crap. There is a point of diminishing returns, but to say that cabling makes no difference is silly.
So, go out and listen to some different cables and see for yourself. If you don't hear a difference, good for you. You just saved some money, but very inexperienced ears can hear a difference. Everytime I make a change in my system, I hear a difference. Not because a sales man told me so, but because I liked what I heard. Why do we spend money on better speakers?????? Because it makes a difference. Why do we spend more money on electronics????? Because it makes a difference.
Now go have fun listening to good music on your new speakers.

I can never figure out how so many people in here have such a hatred for good quality cabling and wire. To say that lamp cord sounds the same as a well crafted speaker cable is Total Crap. There is a point of diminishing returns, but to say that cabling makes no difference is silly.
So, go out and listen to some different cables and see for yourself. If you don't hear a difference, good for you. You just saved some money, but very inexperienced ears can hear a difference. Everytime I make a change in my system, I hear a difference. Not because a sales man told me so, but because I liked what I heard. Why do we spend money on better speakers?????? Because it makes a difference. Why do we spend more money on electronics????? Because it makes a difference.
Now go have fun listening to good music on your new speakers.
Please do two things:
1.) Learn some basic physics.
2.) Learn some basic psychology

#1 will help you understand why a "well crafted" speaker cable will sound the same as lamp cord, and if a change is detectable it is a degradation.
#2 will help you realize how vulnerable we are to biases like expectation bias and how this is interwoven into psychoacoustics. What we hear is really an illusion, an amalgamation of retrieved signals from our ear and, mostly, our minds interpretation and processing of such signals. Thus our minds can have a true "audible" effect on what we hear, even if nothing physically has changed. The Mcgurk Effect (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFPtc8BVdJk) is one of the better examples of this that works on most people.

The problem is that most of the stuff that passes for "well crafted" speaker cable isn't... What do you have against a simple solution like 12 gauge zip cord if it works?

I To say that lamp cord sounds the same as a well crafted speaker cable is Total Crap. .

DBTs have shown these cables to sound no different many times.

I have to make a correction to my previous post...

Some of the esoteric speaker cable is indeed well crafted, it just isn't well engineered from a practical point. It is certainly possible to do things to speaker cable that will yield a different resistance, inductance, or capacitance than zip cord. The effects of these changes can even be measured. The problem is that the net effects of these changes in these "well crafted" cables are almost always so small as to be inaudible. When they are audible, you could achieve the same effect with the treble control on your amp. And some of the changes are actually detrimental if what you are looking for is flatter frequency response.

Some highly touted technologies such as silver wire, monocrystaline copper, oxygen free copper, etc. are just BS...

FWIW speaker distortion, non-linear frequency response of speakers, and room effects, swamp any effects of any reasonable speaker cable. Why not put your money and time where it will be most useful.

thanks guys

I guess Ill have to get new speaker cables, since I only have 16 gauge mosnter CL speaker wires right now...


There's one of the things that could be pretty upsetting. You probably paid far more for the 16 gauge Monster cable than you'll pay for commodity 12 gauge.

Depending on length and your speakers, they'll either sound the same, or the 12 gauge will make a minor improvement in accuracy.

12 gauge is overkill in most home applications, but its cheap insurance against having to think! ;-)

BTW subwoofers and room acoustics are sure-fire ways to obtain better sound, a far more productive route than minor stuff like the difference between 12 and 16 gauge wire.

I can never figure out how so many people in here have such a hatred for good quality cabling and wire. To say that lamp cord sounds the same as a well crafted speaker cable is Total Crap. There is a point of diminishing returns, but to say that cabling makes no difference is silly.
So, go out and listen to some different cables and see for yourself. If you don't hear a difference, good for you. You just saved some money, but very inexperienced ears can hear a difference. Everytime I make a change in my system, I hear a difference. Not because a sales man told me so, but because I liked what I heard. Why do we spend money on better speakers?????? Because it makes a difference. Why do we spend more money on electronics????? Because it makes a difference.
Now go have fun listening to good music on your new speakers.

I don't think anyone has a hatred for good quality cabling and wire. Many, though, know what consitutes "good quality" and understand that it needn't be expensive, and it can even be zip cord.

I can never figure out how so many people in here have such a hatred for good quality cabling and wire.


Its not neecessary hatred. I probably love a nice peice of OFHC, sliver-plated, finely stranded, teflon-insulated, neatly bundled and terminated piece of cable as much as anybody. And I've probably used a lot more of it in my life than most.


To say that lamp cord sounds the same as a well crafted speaker cable is Total Crap.


Depends on what you call "sounds". If you are involving your opinions of its appearance and pedigre in the process of hearing, than no, they don't "sound" the same. If you are talking about sound waves impinging on your eardrum and being perceived in your brain, then there's plenty of evidence that they can indeed sound the same.


There is a point of diminishing returns, but to say that cabling makes no difference is silly.


To say that it always makes a difference to people who aren't mentally-diminished is equally silly.



So, go out and listen to some different cables and see for yourself.


Been there, done that, perhaps since before you were in square, disposable pants. ;-)


If you don't hear a difference, good for you.


You seem to be spitting that out. Do I detect a note of sarcasm?


You just saved some money, but very inexperienced ears can hear a difference.


So you're saying that everybody who disagrees with you lacks experience?

That's *big* of you! ;-)



Everytime I make a change in my system, I hear a difference.


I think you underestimate what makes a difference. What you're saying is like saying: "Everytime I bake a cake it tastes different." That can mean a lot of things.




Not because a sales man told me so, but because I liked what I heard.


Oh, so you're saying that if you don't hear the prerequisite difference, then you don't like what you heard?

BTW, that's an interesting world you live in, where all changes are improvements. ;-)


Why do we spend money on better speakers?????? Because it makes a difference.


Now you're mixing apples and oranges. Its far more likely that speakers will sound different than cables will sound different. Do you know the difference in these differences?


Why do we spend more money on electronics????? Because it makes a difference.


So, nobody ever makes any mistakes when they buy electronics?

That's a wonderful, but totally unreaslistic world that you're talking about there.



Now go have fun listening to good music on your new speakers.

Why do I sense a downward tilt in your nose?

I'd like to point out that when we say that speaker cables all sound the same, we are writing about:
Reasonable cables of reasonable lengths feeding reasonable loudspeakers!

For instance, we don't mean that 500 foot, 10 gauge and 24 gauge cables will sound the same when feeding low impedance ribbon speakers.

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round... all day long. :)

Been there, done that, perhaps since before you were in square, disposable pants. ;-)

Yeah, I think it was 1978 or 79 when I first heard the shamans chanting about magical cables. After maybe an hour or so spent switching a line level connector attached to the tape monitor on my amp, I was greatly relieved to discover I didn't need to spend money on fancy wiring.

I remember thinking, "That was a silly way to spend an hour!"

Yeah, I think it was 1978 or 79 when I first heard the shamans chanting about magical cables.



Sounds about the right time.

Two other things happened about then:

The Absolute Sound \and Peter Moncrieff really started shoveling the compost...

We invented ABX and cable hysteria was used to explain why ABX couldn't work - all those cables and relay contacts were wrong! wrong! wrogn. ;-)



After maybe an hour or so spent switching a line level connector attached to the tape monitor on my amp, I was greatly relieved to discover I didn't need to spend money on fancy wiring.

I remember thinking, "That was a silly way to spend an hour!"

Probably not to my credit but: I've spent a *lot* more time than that testing fancy cables than that, DBTs, measurements, the whole enchelada.

I'm from the "just use zip cord"if you don't happen to have any RG-8 cable camp. Spend your money on room treatments.
Yes, when younger I fell for the hype. Monster, Kimber, AQ. Did some research ( AES papers for a start). Did some measurements. ( phase, distortion, Z) 12 ga zip ( outdoor light wire) from HD. RG-8 measures more balanced, but I can't hear the difference in 10 foot cables.

Some cables DID sound different. Salesmen pointed out they must be better. Well, actually they were causing distortions. Different is not always better. But knowing what measures best, you still need to be happy. Your ears.

On the perhaps faulty assumptions that you weren't just trolling and are still here:

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round... all day long.
+1
FWIW speaker distortion, non-linear frequency response of speakers, and room effects, swamp any effects of any reasonable speaker cable. Why not put your money and time where it will be most useful.
+1 on 'room effects', and that applies to speakers and electronics too, not just cables
... I would suggest hearing for yourself, and seeing if do hear a difference.. Trust you ears, and don't let anyone tell you what it is that you hear...
+100

Electrical dept at HD or Lowe's. 14-12 awg SJO bulk spooled power cable or just buy an extension cord and cut the plugs off. Also the 12 awg outdoor cable for malibu lights is quite popular.

There is no measurable, hearable difference except you when saying "OUCH!" while looking at an empty wallet from getting suckered into buying pretty speaker cables.

The color of conductors means zilch. All the hype you read/hear is just that. sales hype.

+1, low cost and effective :)

check at a lil place called monoprice.com you will never buy over priced crap again, i just picked up 12AWG 50foot spool for like 12 bucks... and if your like me and live in southern cali you can do local pick up, also if your order is less than 20lbs, i think it is, then they will do overnight for like 5 bucks cant beat that.

I just picked up a 100' spoll of 12 gauge, clear, speaker wire from Ebay for about $35 including shipping. Looks fantastic, works just fine, and there is no difference that I can hear between it and the 10 guage Monster wire that it replaced. (I moved and didn't want to rip out the old wire that was hidden) The same wire from Monoprice, including shipping to the east coast was about $76. Still a great deal.

... I would suggest hearing for yourself, and seeing if do hear a difference.. Trust you ears, and don't let anyone tell you what it is that you hear...

+100

Why does anyone support this??

Ears do not process anything, they simply send the signal to the brain and it makes conclusions. The Signal from the ears is matters only 50% to the brain, other factors are also involved (Price, name brand, looks, etc) make up the other 50% of the decision logic involved with "how something sounded", you have little chance of knowing the truth if you JUST use your ears :eek:

Kind of scary to me but people tend to run from education all day long.........The wipers on the bus go Swish, Swish, Swish......:D

I can never figure out how so many people in here have such a hatred for good quality cabling and wire. To say that lamp cord sounds the same as a well crafted speaker cable is Total Crap. There is a point of diminishing returns, but to say that cabling makes no difference is silly.
So, go out and listen to some different cables and see for yourself. If you don't hear a difference, good for you. You just saved some money, but very inexperienced ears can hear a difference. Everytime I make a change in my system, I hear a difference. Not because a sales man told me so, but because I liked what I heard. Why do we spend money on better speakers?????? Because it makes a difference. Why do we spend more money on electronics????? Because it makes a difference.
Now go have fun listening to good music on your new speakers.

I have a hatred for ignorance actually, the world would be a better place without it ;)

I also like to bet and I have $1K for anyone to prove to me that they can hear the difference in speaker wire during a properly controlled test!

Cables do not make an audible difference, to say otherwise shows someone to be very uneducated about audio science.

I would rather be silly then uneducated :D

I had done a lot of research and supposedly if the gauge and length are correct there is not much difference sonically if at all;however on a tri-amp linn 242 front speaker I decided to try old Dh labs t 14 that i had long lost on either the mid or treble and it to MY ears a I heard very large difference from the no name ,but good looking cables.The sound was much clearer and precise to my ears.

Also my experience in processor to amps interconnects is there is a large difference the modestly priced $40-$60 / 1 meter against $10-$15-is to me very large . Again to sum it up it is much clearer and more precise. i have used Knuconcptz,straight wire ,linn ,the highest end monster which you can buy real cheap to me are are similar

The gear is Lexicon mc-1,cary and Linn amps. Linn 242 and 104 speakers.

When we set up a broadcast grade audio system we use interconnect cable that cost about .10 a foot?

Did you know that recording studios using 2,000.00 microphones use portable mic cables that cost about .30 a foot RETAIL?

Did you know that when sound reinforcement companies install huge high powered line arrays at concerts they use 12/4 SJO more than any other?

Did you know that home stereo interconnect cables costing 1,000.00 each sound no different from Best Buy's 3.00 cables?

I can never figure out how so many people in here have such a hatred for good quality cabling and wire.

Whoa. Strawman argument. Good quality cabling is crucial in many cases for system performance. But key is understanding what those cases are, why, and what cable is appropriate.

Speaker cables are usually not one of those cases where quality makes any difference because the type of cabling required for modest wire lengths and loads is extremely simple and cheap to make.

Cases where cabling is far more crucial are long runs of line-level audio, any kind of video run, any kind of digital interconnect or data run (Ethernet, HDMI etc), etc.


To say that lamp cord sounds the same as a well crafted speaker cable is Total Crap. There is a point of diminishing returns, but to say that cabling makes no difference is silly.

No, your claim here is total crap. I helped administer a blinded AB test of just this claim, and it utterly failed. Basic physics dictates that there isn't a difference.

So, go out and listen to some different cables and see for yourself. If you don't hear a difference, good for you. You just saved some money, but very inexperienced ears can hear a difference. Everytime I make a change in my system, I hear a difference. Not because a sales man told me so, but because I liked what I heard. Why do we spend money on better speakers?????? Because it makes a difference. Why do we spend more money on electronics????? Because it makes a difference.
Now go have fun listening to good music on your new speakers.

Many things do make a difference. That doesn't prove that everything makes a difference. That assertion doesn't follow at all. This tells me you haven't taken a science class in your life. A third grader could rip holes the size north america in your logic here.

II also like to bet and I have $1K for anyone to prove to me that they can hear the difference in speaker wire during a properly controlled test!

If it is speaker "wires" of my choice then you are on.

If it is speaker "wires" of my choice then you are on.

How about these:

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/ultimate-gear/magnum_opus/

against

bluejeans decent gauge cables.

How about these:

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/ultimate-gear/magnum_opus/

against

bluejeans decent gauge cables.

That test was done against some monster cables. I was involved in the test, you can find the thread in the +$20K forum.

Canare 4S11 from Blue Jeans or another vendor at a little bit over $1 / foot. And if you cover it with TechFlex and heatshrink the ends you can easily build some great looking cables. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=94203 I had a heated paint stripper (looks like a hair dryer) which did a great job on the heat shrink.

And since I was using Canare, I built my cables with 4 spades on the speaker ends so I could see what bi-wiring was all about - I did not hear any improvement in SQ, but no harm either except for the cost of 4 extra spades. And I think the cables look really cool

Never understood the need for "good looking" speaker cables. Buy some in-wall rated wire and run them in the walls. When I go into someone's house and see speaker wire laying on the floor it just looks like amateur hour to me, no matter how fancy the wires are. Even the speakers in my garage have no visible wires.

I live in a 80 year old house (walls are wet plaster, etc.) and it is difficult to put speaker wires in them.

I live in a 80 year old house (walls are wet plaster, etc.) and it is difficult to put speaker wires in them
Got baseboards?

I live in a 80 year old house (walls are wet plaster, etc.) and it is difficult to put speaker wires in them.

It's no more difficult than running wires in any existing structure, my last house was built in 1907, and I was still able to run wires. And as stated, there is always the option to run them under the baseboards.

People update old houses all the time with new lighting etc., I've never seen them run Romex across the floor, they put it in the walls. Speaker wire is no different.

w w w . scpcat5e . com/cables/directburial/db_strandedbc.php

14/2SHDB 4C/14 GA. STRANDED BARE COPPER - BLACK


Used a few times, great stuff! Direct Burial so it's shielded well.

Gauge is determined by distance and wattage. For my setup, bought some 14AWG RCA speaker wire from HD for about $60 per 100' spool. Good stuff, works well.

Why buy $30k cable? Same reason as buy Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Grand Sport for $2mil. Getting from A to B is one thing. Doing so in style is another.

What kinda gets under my skin is exotic car dealers are a lot more honest. They won't try to BS you about 'superior driveability' or something like that. It is just mutually understood that you are paying 80-120k for the car and the rest for the grille badge. Sellers of exotic cable actually try to convince you their wares produce superior sound.

It's no more difficult than running wires in any existing structure, my last house was built in 1907, and I was still able to run wires. And as stated, there is always the option to run them under the baseboards.

People update old houses all the time with new lighting etc., I've never seen them run Romex across the floor, they put it in the walls. Speaker wire is no different.

this is an excellent point.. i have a 60 plus year old house and just finished running my speaker cables under the floor right next to the romex that was just added. the romex had to be run further to reach the electrical box so it was tacked nice and neat to the sub floor.

i bought two .85 cent grey 3/4 inch 10ft conduit and ran my cables from the wall, through the subfloor across the room via the conduit and up into the next wall... i secured them up close to the floor to save a foot or two of cable.. looks thousand times better than my speaker cable taped to the hardwood floors!! lol:eek:

the conduit may have been overkill but i wanted the best protection for the speaker cables and in case a critter decided to make a meal of plastic maybe he/she/it will have its fill before it gets to the actual speaker wires!!

What kinda gets under my skin is exotic car dealers are a lot more honest. They won't try to BS you about 'superior driveability' or something like that. It is just mutually understood that you are paying 80-120k for the car and the rest for the grille badge. Sellers of exotic cable actually try to convince you their wares produce superior sound.and convince some they do. It's not only the cable sellers, the buyers often are even more demonstrative in their enthusiasm.