that Fallout 3 doesn't suck.

I read all the glowing reviews, played both the original PC titles, and rented the current sequel. I was never a fan of the Oblivion title and this is how Fallout 3 came across to me. I really want to like it but the slow movement of the character keeps me from buying it. Was that something I did or is that how it is?

That's how it is. I'd try to convince you it doesn't suck, but I'm too busy playing it :p Plus, you didn't like Oblivion so I wouldn't bother, honestly.

I would
A.) Play COD Modern Warfare in prep for MW2.
B.) Play dead space or Far Cry 2.
They both were a great surprize and I didnt even know about Far Cry it was a blind buy.

i dl'd the demos to dead space, killzone 2, and a 3rd title, cant remember which. in short, i hated all 3. i did enjoy the ufc demo, madden 10, and virtua tennis.

basically games everyone else is hyped about, i couldnt stand. otoh, 3 that probably arent that well received i enjoyed quite a bit.

if you dont like it, you dont like it. it's that simple. i tried to make myself like oblivion back in my 360 days, and no matter how many hours i poured into it, i started hating it that much more

edit: i will say dead space has a freakin siiiiick audio experience

You think Virtua Tennis, Madden, and UFC aren't well-received?

You think Virtua Tennis, Madden, and UFC aren't well-received?

couldnt really tell you...though i dont check avs too often, i dont think i've seen threads on either ufc or virtua tennis...madden 10 i have, but that could be due to its recent release.

Well, I don't know about the latest installment, but Virtua Tennis is a bit of a legendary series from the Dreamcast days. Madden '10 and UFC 2009 have both been getting good reviews around the internet.

You sound like you have had the same Bethesda experience I had. Sort of.

Back 3-4 years ago when Oblivion came out for PC, I was all hyped from looking at the videos of the shiny forest and the landscapes and such. I had played Morrowind, the prequel to Oblivion, and thought the dark, serious atmosphere and gigantic world was really cool, along with the cool in your face bloom sunset effects and the scary red mountain area with the perpetual windstorms. Hell you get to eventually stab the heart of an evil lord that embodies the mountain itself, or something like that, and the lore and story were grand.

Anyway, I blew $1000+ on a high spec machine just to play OBLIVION, more like mid-budget gaming with an x2 3800+ and 7600GT, enough to run it decently on a 19" 1280x1024 LCD. I assembled the parts, installed the game, and then had a giant headache from buyer's remorse. I couldn't stand the look of the game in person. The environments, the graphics, the color, the faces, the movement, the physics, the music, everything just kind of made me puke. It's hard to describe. Ignoring all these superficial issues aside, the game itself was very bland. Every town looked the same. Every dungeon looked the same. Every character looked the same. Heck, they didn't even bother to vary up the voices, or do any true voice acting. Male orc 1 sounded exactly like male orc 2, without even the slightest bother to vary intonation. Same with pretty much every gender+race combo. The main story was very weak, as well as the sidequests, and there was no real atmosphere or feeling of the coming doom like Morrowind. It just felt really bland and whitewashed. I'm not gonna get into how boring the Gates were. I spent 100+ hours on the game to finish it and beat all the quests, and I didn't enjoy a second of it. I had spent $1000+ for this one game and I'd be damned if I didn’t try to get my full money's worth, mods and all.

What also sucked is that when I first got my PS3 and was desperate to find and play something on it that wasn't an FPS, craving something to fix my RPG addiction, I was left with only two options: Enchanted Arms and Oblivion. Well let’s just say I've tried Enchanted Arms on my friends Xbox 360 and we both agreed it should have been euthanized before leaving the factory. The only other option was a GOTY Oblivion. In my panic, due to a lack of PS3 games to play, I bought a copy of it, hoping that somehow the PS3 version would have a new shine to it and the console would make it look different through a nice flatscreen TV instead of my previous crappy monitor. Maybe the new included DLC content would bring me back into the game. It was all a BIG mistake. I had paid full price at GameStop (yeah when I said I was desperate to play an RPG, I meant it) and eeked out every last drop of the new DLC content to get my money’s worth, but I didn't enjoy any of it one bit. I eventually sold it on eBay.

It was all a bit of a masochistic experience. From my experience with Morrowind, and the excessive hype and excessive praise the game got from various gaming sites, forums, commentors, etc. throughout the few years surrounding its release and afterwards, basically even old granny's and their dogs on Youtube would suggest, I just felt that there was something wrong with me, that it MUST be good, that I MUST be missing something, and that it will eventually all click into place. That day never came and I am a bit wiser now from the experience.

When Fallout 3 was released and I saw the videos, I dreaded another Oblivion experience, but I told myself again to not trust a book by its cover and that Fallout 3, although made by Bethesda and using the same engine, would be a vastly different thing. Being more prudent this time, since I already had a capable console and was walking distance from a Blockbuster, I rented the game one night. I think I spent about two hours before I ran back and shoved the game into the return slot. It really was Oblivion all over again, at least to me. Just a reskinning of characters and environments. The same crappy voices, the same stomach churning look and feel, the same motion sickness movements, the same poorly defined and flat looking faces and environments, made even more bland by the post-apocalyptic setting, the same ragdoll physics, the same fake presentation and fake characters.

Basically, I've given up on Bethesda, at least for this generation if they continue using the same design philosophies and same game engine they've been using for Oblivion and Fallout 3. There's also another company I've officially blacklisted. Bioware. I've tried KOTOR 1, KOTOR 2, Jade Empire, and now more recently, Mass Effect. I'm not going to get into the details of why I don't like any of the games Bioware has made, but I've given it enough thought, and play hours, to come to my conclusion.

In short, you should give the benefit of the doubt to any game that might be universally praised but you don't like. If you know of previous games made by the developer and you know the pedigree well, and the new game looks to continue the same trend, I say judging a book by its cover then would be a very rational decision. However, in order to establish how well you know the pedigree, 30 minutes won't cut it. Give it a fair shot before dropping it, and if you've invested a large portion of your life dedicated to deciding whether you like a game type/genre/developer or not and the same thing comes along again, save yourself the agony and IGNORE IT and everything about it.

The main thing for Fallout 3 is the setting/story. If you are not into post apocalyptic stuff and cant stnd RPG style slow character progression, I suggest getting a standard FPS like COD, Battlefield: BC, etc.

Me, Im not an RPG fan, but I love post apocalytpic storys and recently finished reading The Road, and Fallout reminds me of that book, so I grabbed Fallout 3 a couple weeks ago and am really enjoying it. Its not a great FPS, and its not a great RPG. But it mixes the two so well, it is fun and rewarding to keep playing and finding better gear for your character.

Fallout 3 doesnt suck, but its definately not for everyone. If you just need quick action, and only want a game to play 30min or so and put away, this isnt for you.

I play FO3 off and on, on my PC. I really hated the environment compared to Oblivion, so I decided to download the greenworld mod. The swords of Oblivion were more fun to use, so added a lightsaber. And for a little something extra, added ability to command a squad. There are always six guys running behind me to do my bidding :)

I borrowed Fallout 3 from a friend and hated it.

Then it was on sale for cheap and I bought it. Ended up playing it non-stop and even bothered to get all the trophies (only game I've done this on).

The difference: when I borrowed the game, I rushed through it to try to see what the deal was. When I bought it, I took my time to enjoy, explore, and upgrade. This made all the difference. If you don't take the time, then don't play the game.

that Fallout 3 doesn't suck.

I read all the glowing reviews, played both the original PC titles, and rented the current sequel. I was never a fan of the Oblivion title and this is how Fallout 3 came across to me. I really want to like it but the slow movement of the character keeps me from buying it. Was that something I did or is that how it is?

TBH it sounds like you prefer run-and-gun games like COD4 and most FPS. It simply isn't the game for you if that is the case. This is unfortunate because IMO it is one of the best games I have ever played and certainly one of the best if not the best in its genre.

Game was too easy and your decisions didn't matter. You could kill every guard and the next day nobody remembers. I though the game was waaaay overated but at the same time I could see how some people would like it.

First person RPGS are lame. Simple as that.

The decisions were too heavy for me.

In the words of Damon Wayans in In Living Color "Hated It"

You didn't have to play it in first person...

You didn't have to play it in first person...

WTF...*Head blows up ala The Pick of Destiny*

You didn't have to play it in first person...

Yeah but I hated that I had to walk everywhere. Game needed jetpax.

I'd skip Fallout 3. Since you didn't like Oblivion, it sounds to me like you might not like how console-friendly and easy Bethesda's games have gotten. You can run. I'm not sure how much faster you want to move. You can also transport instantly to any location you want. Not quite sure what you mean. The character doesn't move much slower or faster than any other FPS.

My biggest gripe is that you hit the level cap in Fallout 3 at about 30 hours in, at which point the game becomes pointless. I don't understand how people can keep wandering around after that because there's no challenge left. I had been doing side quests and wandering and exploring, but once I hit the level cap, there was no point anymore, so I just finished the game. Once you've maxed your character out, you've got too good of equipment and stat bonuses, so the rest of the game is a breeze and just flies by.

I'm a huge fan of Morrowind (played through twice, both times it took well over 150hours). I enjoyed Oblivion, but it was missing the same open-ness and rich story that made Morrowind so great. But at least I didn't have to worry about some arbitrary level cap ruining the game. Fallout 3 could have been really great. They tried to make the game too digestable to too many people by instituting such an early level cap. Completely ruined the longevity of the game. I haven't touched the DLC because there's no point unless they remove the level cap. Yes, I know that Broken Steel bumped it up a little to level 30, but that's nothing.

WTF? Fallout 3 has a level cap? What is the cap at? :(

By far my favorite game of all time.

I think the environment and idea of the game is probably the coolest imaginable though, so I don't know if that helps. I rented Oblivion when it came out and couldn't get into it at all. Literally played it for like 30 min then returned it. I wonder if I'd like it now. I don't think so.

sometimes some people don't like stuff that other people really really like

some people really really like sushi, some people don't

*I just analogized Fallout 3 to sushi

My biggest gripe is that you hit the level cap in Fallout 3 at about 30 hours in, at which point the game becomes pointless. I don't understand how people can keep wandering around after that because there's no challenge left. I had been doing side quests and wandering and exploring, but once I hit the level cap, there was no point anymore, so I just finished the game. Once you've maxed your character out, you've got too good of equipment and stat bonuses, so the rest of the game is a breeze and just flies by.I love just exploring and finding all the little bits of backstory so the level cap didn't really matter to me. It took me a lot longer to hit the cap, about 80 hours maybe. Did you ever bump up the difficulty? Once things started getting too easy, around level 17 I think, I changed the difficulty to very hard. I could still wipe the floor with most enemies but also could be killed fairly easily if I got in over my head.

It's got a lot of flaws but is still my second favorite PS3 game. I put around 250 hours into it and am now waiting for the GOTY edition so I can play all the expansions.

Great game compared to Oblivion, try it.

WTF? Fallout 3 has a level cap? What is the cap at? :(Standard retail level cap is at 20 (which you'll hit anywhere between 25 and 35 hours in). With the Broken Steel expansion, it got bumped to 30. Adds another 5-10 hours to that total.

Fallout 3 may have the size and content of Morrowind and Oblivion, but it doesn't have the lasting appeal. In those games, it takes you 150-200 hours to become pretty much undefeatable because of items and stat bonuses. In Fallout 3, that happens at around 30 hours.

I was pissed when I discovered that. Turns into a pleasure cruise thereafter. You can wander and do ****, but it all feels soulless because there's never a risk of dying. It feels like playing a game on God-mode. If I'm just playing for story, I'd rather read a book or watch a movie. BTW strongly recommend The Road if you enjoyed the story in Fallout 3. Best post-apocalyptic novel I've read.

I would
A.) Play COD Modern Warfare in prep for MW2.
B.) Play dead space or Far Cry 2.
They both were a great surprize and I didnt even know about Far Cry it was a blind buy.

Deadspace would be too slow and strategic.

I'd recommend the OP keep playing mindless, twitch FPS's and post less.


:p

Uhm, he said he played the first two Fallout games (I'm assuming he liked them since he wanted to get into Fallout 3). which are the complete opposite of twitch shooters :p

He was just complaining about movement speed, which I think is worse than it was in Oblivion, where you could get a horse to get somewhere quickly. Teleporting only works for locations you have already been to, so you do have to do some wandering and exploring before enough is opened up that you don't have to travel long distances on foot. Granted, I really enjoy exploring the world and often travel on foot just to enjoy the exploration and maybe find some hidden things, but I can understand how someone wouldn't like it.

And I do wish there were horses or vehicles or something to get around a little quicker.

Great input folks, It seems if I thought Oblivion was not my type then Fallout 3 would be more of the same. I did enjoy the exploration side of things in Fallout 3. I am a huge post-apocalypse fan read The Road, and working on Canticle for Leibowitz now. I like the run and gun stuff, I though Lost Planet was cool and really enjoyed Killzone2. Resistance 1 was good.Presently I am working on Dead Space, it is awesome.

I guess I just wanted to like Fallout 3, I agree with a poster above about needing a RPG and have been disappointed in the recent Square stuff but enjoyed Blue Dragon and thought Lost Odyessy was excellent. So it appears Bethesda is not for me, though I've not written Bioware off, I really like their take on RPGs, I'd like to see a Jade Empire sequel. The new Dragon Age looks good as well as Diablo3. I am one who liked Assassins Creed and eagerly await the next, I think those are pretty close to RPGs as well

Anyways, thanks for the input. I trust the folks here a lot more than the IGN/Gamespot crowd.

Use VATS, its not a FPS its a RPG, and a really good one at that. Go exploring, don't bother with the main quest line and do all the side quests.

I guess I just wanted to like Fallout 3, I agree with a poster above about needing a RPG and have been disappointed in the recent Square stuff but enjoyed Blue Dragon and thought Lost Odyessy was excellent. So it appears Bethesda is not for me, though I've not written Bioware off, I really like their take on RPGs, I'd like to see a Jade Empire sequel. The new Dragon Age looks good as well as Diablo3. I am one who liked Assassins Creed and eagerly await the next, I think those are pretty close to RPGs as wellKeep a close eye on the Obsidian crew. They're made up of old Black Isle folks who worked on the first two Fallout games, the two Baldur's Gate PC games, the two Icewind Dale games, and Planescape: Torment. IMO that's the most impressive pedigree in the entire history of the RPG genre. They're currently finishing up Alpha Protocol for a fall release, and are working on their own Fallout game (Fallout New Vegas) due out sometime in 2010.

Good tip - I never played Planescape but had heard great things about it. I always thought the Baldur's Gate games were good too, except for the third-person view. Likewise, the Forgotten Realms and Dragon Lance (SSI I think) games were good, although outdated now.

I think if they went with a "Gamma World" approach to a post-apocalyptic game, I would be in like flint (am I showing my age with those two phrases?)...

NeverWinter Nights 1 & 2 were games that I found more enjoyable than Morrowind or Oblivion - I guess I like having a party where you can control each individual and devise some sort of group tactics (although group formations would be nice, ala Dungeon Siege), while having more character customization available.

Started playing Fallout 3 on August 13 2009, and I just got my Platinum trophy last night.

Overall, I'd say Fallout 3 is more of Oblivion set in the post-apocalyptic future.

Took me a total of 46 hours of playtime to get Platinum trophy. :eek:

I noticed how big my save file kept growing, all told I now have an 8.5MB save file on my PS3. I'm not deleting it because I will be downloading the bonus content coming in September.

My advice to the original poster is to skip Fallout 3... its good, not great. You won't be missing anything THAT amazing...

NeverWinter Nights 1 & 2 were games that I found more enjoyable than Morrowind or Oblivion - I guess I like having a party where you can control each individual and devise some sort of group tactics (although group formations would be nice, ala Dungeon Siege), while having more character customization available.Oh, and NN2 was also an Obsidian-developed game. ;)

Dungeon Siege, though, what a dull beast. Became way too routine too quickly. May as well have just been purely an inventory management game that left fighting out entirely. I preferred the tactical approach of the Baldur's Gate games myself. Pausing and dictating the next move to each character was great. Not sure it would work for a console though. It'd be way too tedious without hotkeys.

Keep a close eye on the Obsidian crew. They're made up of old Black Isle folks who worked on the first two Fallout games, the two Baldur's Gate PC games, the two Icewind Dale games, and Planescape: Torment. IMO that's the most impressive pedigree in the entire history of the RPG genre. They're currently finishing up Alpha Protocol for a fall release, and are working on their own Fallout game (Fallout New Vegas) due out sometime in 2010.

Good ole Black Isle:) I have been watching Alpha Protocol. The little I've seen looks to be good. Planescape was very good. I totally enjoyed those types of games. Honestly I wish someone could/would bring that old Secret of Mana, semi top down action RPG back. For the record, the most refreshing RPG lately IMHO is the Valkyria Chronicles. Great mix of turn based and strategy type tactics.

Except for the bugs and glitches that came with this game, I found Fallout 3 to be quite enjoyable. I loved seeing peoples body parts fly apart in slow motion in all its bloody glory. I can't wait to play the DLC content.:)

I don't undestand how someone who obviously hates oblivion so much that he still put in 100 hours playing it? You sure you didn't like it ? :)

Bethesda gets about as much respect from me that any company can get and I'll tell you why.

I grew up playing old school PC RPG's. I'm talking games like the Ultima Series, and the underworld series too. I could list more but it doesnt matter. These games took an incredible amount of time to complete. Ultima even had it's own written language. These were back in the days were you had 11 floppies you had to swap back and forth and horrendous load times, and no automapping of dungeons. The only map you had was what you had dawn on graph paper as you progressed through an area.

My point was, these games were a huge dedication of time. A fantasy world you could get engulfed into. Not some 8 hours blast fest with some barely written story thought up afterwards like todays games. These games gave you your money's worth even before mutliplayer existed.

I played oblivion for months, 130 hours into it, and I still need to go back and do stuff in it. That's a crazy amount of time for anything yet alone a single player game. You call some things repetitve, faces, voices, some cities which for the record didn't look all the same to me but I'll agree with the rest. Well, maybe your expecting too much. I don't know how Bethesda put this kind of game out, as a launch title for the xbox at that, of course they are going to have to cut some corners. In order to have that amount of gameplay and have every single character different everywhere....might be too much to ask perhaps. That being said, Fallout didn't suffer this repeptive nature as much.

Bethesda for the most part, hasn't fallen like the rest of the developers out there. They don't stop at some 8 hour campaign and call it a game, and hold back the rest as "DLC". I'll admit some of their first DLC was a bit overpriced and lame, but we vote with our wallets so if I didn't agree with it, I didn't buy it. But name another company that puts out old skool type rpg's with hundreds of hours of gameplay like they have?

I think with fallout they made some seriously bad game design choices. I loved the game, but like others, the level cap ruined it for me. The entire point of a game like this is enjoying exploration and benefiting from it by leveling up. Once I hit the level cap, I just finished the game, and never went back.

Maybe you do not really like the RPG as it is today...as it is somewhat watered down from the earlier days. We can indeed blame the console for that, and developer cost as well. But honestly, for me, Fallout was GOTY, and so was Oblivion. The problem with these types of games is that they are what you put into them. You can stick to the main story, or not, explor or not, but they aren't for everyone

I don't undestand how someone who obviously hates oblivion so much that he still put in 100 hours playing it? You sure you didn't like it ? :)Not sure who you're responding to, but most of the former PC RPG gamers in this thread agree with you. Oblivion was very good, just not great the way that Morrowind was. And, yes, the level cap in Fallout 3 was a major buzz kill. But I might give the whole thing another shot once they release all the DLC in a single (much cheaper) package.

This time, though, I think I might start with the difficulty meter cranked all the way up. One thing that's common to all Bethesda RPGs from Morrowind on is that they get easier as you progress, rather than harder. That means I continually have to raise the difficulty meter as I go. But I'm thinking that this next time through I'll just start with it at the top and play that way. Should make it a bit more challenging and fun--at least until I hit the level cap again. :rolleyes:

Also, Ultima 7 parts 1 and 2 are two of my favorite RPGs of all time, and the two Underworld games were way ahead of their time. Brilliant.

The boom in console gaming has utterly changed the way RPGs are designed. I'm not a fan of Bioware's work. KOTOR was great because it felt new. But every game since then has just felt like a new skin on the same structure and mechanics. Jade Empire got boring fast. Mass Effect was a brilliant concept with excellent backstory, but it felt like a real chore to finish. Hated the plot and characters. Hated the inventory management. Loved the music.

For me, there hasn't really been a great RPG yet this generation (either Western or Japanese). Last gen, FFXII and Oblivion--yes, I'm calling it a last-gen game--were the big standouts. So far this gen, Fallout 3 and Persona 3/4 have been the big ones, but I think the genre can do much better. I'm hopeful about Obsidian's Alpha Protocol and their follow up to Bethesda's Fallout 3. And, of course, FFXIII.

Black Isle's work, though, will take a lot to match. What made Baldur's Gate so magical was that it was a return to the traditional fantasy plot/setting and a return to a decade-old play style with modern mechanics. It was like playing through a great epic fantasy novel. Every one of their games after that used the same basic mechanics and game engine. They had top-notch writing that culminated in their masterwork Planescape: Torment.

Not sure who from that crew did and did not make the transition to Obsidian, but they've put out respectable work ever since. Problem is, all of their games so far have been sequels to the work of other studios. KOTOR 2 followed Bioware's first game. Neverwinter Nights 2 followed Bioware's first game. Fallout New Vegas will follow Bethesda's game (which followed Black Isle's first two). Alpha Protocol is the first new IP they will have done as Obsidian. Also, I think that following Bethesda's design for Fallout 3 will lead to much better work than when they had to follow Bioware's designs.

Anyhow, I'm very excited to see what they produce!

Agreed. The open world genre stole a lot of thunder from RPGs, I think. Instead of filling in the gaps with story and cutscenes you get to do it for "real". I think the Mass Effect model is very nice, of course the combat/inventory needed tweaks. As for Jade Empire, the setting was different from the Tolkien fantasy type and was refreshing. Those types of games, to me, need to work on the party system. I tend to think that Assassin's Creed or even MGS4 are the "new" RPG, the third person action/free range type. No parties, a single focused main character, skill trees, etc. At least I'm getting more satisfaction from them than some of the current JRPGs and western types. The strict turn based ones are getting stale, I did enjoy Mistwalker's last two on the XBOX.

I tend to think that Assassin's Creed or even MGS4 are the "new" RPG, the third person action/free range type. No parties, a single focused main character, skill trees, etc. At least I'm getting more satisfaction from them than some of the current JRPGs and western types. The strict turn based ones are getting stale, I did enjoy Mistwalker's last two on the XBOX.Totally same wavelength. GTA3, Vice City, and San Andreas are better RPGs than most RPGs these days. :D

For some reason, RPG designers haven't figured that out yet.

i have been dying for another ultima game since forever. Not some lame MMO either.

i have been dying for another ultima game since forever. Not some lame MMO either.I'm not very hopeful. Ultima 8 sucked. So did 9. And Ultima Online isn't my thing.

But after my last post, I keep imagining a fantasy-themed GTA game. :)

Another thing that was great with the BG and NWN games was the interaction of the party characters. Granted, it was all scripted, but at least it offered some amusement in the slower moments.

The remarks that the henchmen in MW or Oblivion make seem to be more generic in nature.

The strict turn based ones are getting stale, I did enjoy Mistwalker's last two on the XBOX.

Never got into them because of that one issue.

I understand the strategic importance, and planning aspect; but it was a design decision necessitated because of the medium at the time. There's no reason for it anymore.

If I wanted to play a turned based game with numbers, I'll go play magic (not really). Combat can both be complicated and strategic, and real time based now a days.

I'm not very hopeful. Ultima 8 sucked. So did 9. And Ultima Online isn't my thing.

But after my last post, I keep imagining a fantasy-themed GTA game. :)

Not exactly fantasy-themed, but I'm hoping Red Dead Redemption will be that perfect blend of open-world adventuring and GTA craziness.

i have been dying for another ultima game since forever. Not some lame MMO either.

I'm not very hopeful. Ultima 8 sucked. So did 9. And Ultima Online isn't my thing.

Well even more importantly Lord British / Richard Garriott has long since parted from the series due to EA f-ing it all up by overtaking Origin and then basically telling him to focus on MP (which he was not a fan of for Ultima). UO isn't my thing either. Ultima should have continued to be a SP game and this is one thing I will always hate EA for ruining.

I tend to think that Assassin's Creed or even MGS4 are the "new" RPG, the third person action/free range type.

I know what you are saying... that sandbox games are overtaking true RPGs by a landslide. That said, I didn't think MGS4 really had components of either. There was no advancement tree and it was sandbox only in the sense that there were multiple paths you could take but you were hardly making any decisions in that game. It was story-driven linear.

I know what you are saying... that sandbox games are overtaking true RPGs by a landslide. That said, I didn't think MGS4 really had components of either. There was no advancement tree and it was sandbox only in the sense that there were multiple paths you could take but you were hardly making any decisions in that game. It was story-driven linear.Weapon upgrades were pretty RPG-like. And if you watch videos for Alpha Protocol, you'll see a close resemblance between the two in terms of how weapon upgrades/menus work.

Weapon upgrades were pretty RPG-like. And if you watch videos for Alpha Protocol, you'll see a close resemblance between the two in terms of how weapon upgrades/menus work.

Oh.. true. I forgot about that aspect.

Not exactly fantasy-themed, but I'm hoping Red Dead Redemption will be that perfect blend of open-world adventuring and GTA craziness.

I hope the adventure is there too.

I know what you are saying... that sandbox games are overtaking true RPGs by a landslide. That said, I didn't think MGS4 really had components of either. There was no advancement tree and it was sandbox only in the sense that there were multiple paths you could take but you were hardly making any decisions in that game. It was story-driven linear.
Linear-Story-Driven

RPG staple...:)

I know what you are saying... that sandbox games are overtaking true RPGs by a landslide. That said, I didn't think MGS4 really had components of either. There was no advancement tree and it was sandbox only in the sense that there were multiple paths you could take but you were hardly making any decisions in that game. It was story-driven linear.

If Snake was in a traditional RPG, some invisible dice roll would determine how much damage you did, in MGS4 you didn't need to imagine or even have to use all the abilities at your disposal. You could go stealthy or balls out. Better than RPG, IMHO. That said I like a good linear story, MGS4 kept me going to see what was next.

I guess, the old(er) ones left so much to the imagination, hence the attachment.

For me, what those older PC RPGs did so well were a few things:

-Deep rich story that didn't get shoved down your throat with cut-scenes and FMV sequences. The "story" was often part of the environment. Back in those days, people also read the manuals for additional backstory. Designers didn't expect you to hear or learn every little detail on one playthrough. Instead, you often had to piece things together yourself. Ultimately, it made for more intelligently designed games, and treated players with more intelligence and patience. If you missed a line of dialogue, that was it. You couldn't talk to an NPC over and over again to get every little piece of information. Fallout 3 does a good job of this, though.

-Flexible characters. Instead of having asinine facial feature tools like they do now, older RPGs focused on other ways of modifying your character. More character classes. More ability sets and applications. More weapon and spell and ability types.

-Open world. Long before it became a catch-phrase for sandbox games, RPGs were doing the "open world" thing. Daggerfall was pretty much the height of the open-world singleplayer RPG. Ridiculously huge. These days, RPGs have gotten more and more linear (especially the Bioware and FF games).

-Long. You weren't meant to finish an RPG in a weekend (Mass Effect), a week (Fallout 3), or even a month (Dragon Quest VIII). They were like a full fantasy epic series. I got attached to those games partly because I spent so much time invested in each one. You can't help but feel them more deeply. The last game that did that for me was Morrowind. These days, you have to play an MMO to get that experience. But I've been down that MMO road, and that way madness lies. :o

-PC-based. Games were slower-paced and had much more complex item management and action inputs because of the nature of old-school PC games. These days many PC game designers develop with a controller in mind, and many gamers use a controller for PC games. Limits the number of things you can control, but focuses the action and intensity. Hence RPGs have moved more into the realm of constant action (Fallout 3, Mass Effect).

Sure, most of these qualities I could get from an MMO. But anyone who's stepped away from that scene knows why I couldn't go back. Even if those old RPGs were long, they do actually end--unlike MMOs. Is it too much to expect modern designers to develop deep, rich, engaging, complex, intelligent, singleplayer RPGs?