Ok, so I use the AVIA DVD to setup up my audio levels which consists of:

Outlaw 1070 receiver (65wpc)
Vintage Nakamichi P5-PAII (150w stereo amp) bi-amped with the outlaw to the L/R for 215w total to L/R

Polk RTi 70's L/R
Polk CSi3 Center
Cheap Jensen surrounds (don't ask)
Vintage Velodyne ULD15A7 amp with the ULD15S7 Sub
Samsung BDP-1500 playing the avia disk

So when I run the pink noise on all 5 channels, I use a FFT (RTA type spectrum analyzer) app on my iphone, which I trust somewhat to measure the bass and treble and make sure that I get as flat of a line as possible. Well, when I play my reference material like John Mayer: Where the Light Is Blu-Ray the bass is way too dominant. Same with other material. If I use the FFT while listening and try to get a flat line again the bass totally disappears. Where is the difference coming from? I have the treble and bass set as close to zero as possible, only making minor adjust as necessary to get a flat response.

Current settings:

L/R speakers set to large, with the subwoofer setting to L/R+Sub, which sends the full audio range to the L/R, but also acts as if they were set to "small" and sends the low end to the sub, which I like because I can hear/feel the kick drum better. Crossover for the rest of the system (C, plus L/R surrounds) set to 100hz.

I have had the system set the L/R to small with xover at 80hz, but still same results.

Current settings:

L/R speakers set to large, with the subwoofer setting to L/R+Sub, which sends the full audio range to the L/R, but also acts as if they were set to "small" and sends the low end to the sub, which I like because I can hear/feel the kick drum better. Crossover for the rest of the system (C, plus L/R surrounds) set to 100hz.

I have had the system set the L/R to small with xover at 80hz, but still same results.

Well, that'll give you way too much bass in the region where both the mains and the sub are working.

Not sure what you mean by the bass going away. I'd set the main speakers to small, with whatever crossover seems right to you (some argue lower is better, at least if you're not correcting the sub with Audyssey, but YMMV) and try to balance that. If it sounds too bass heavy, turn the sub off (or down to zero) to ensure it's not from the main speakers. Then adjust the sub to where it sounds right.

The bass levels will vary wildly from location to location in your room, and to me, flat bass sometimes sounds too hot, which I take to be a room related issue. So you have to adjust the bass (preferably starting with flat) until it works for you, if you can't do more sophisticated measurements and correction.

BTW, do you know if you cell phone's sampling program is A- or C- weighted? Those weighting schemes ignore a lot of the bass, so setting it "flat' is really pumping it up many decibels.

And of course your I-Phone microphone is flat within, say +/- 1 db from 20 to 20,000 hz? Somehow I doubt it. :rolleyes:

If I read your post correctly, you are running pink noise through all 5.1 channels simultaneously, correct? Well, considering that the frequency response of each speaker in the room is different from one and the other, there is no way you can get anywhere near flat frequency response. You need something like Audyssey that measures EACH speaker INDIVIDUALLY and applies correction to each speaker to obtain flat response in the room.

JHAz is correct. Do not run the mains as Large plus the sub. Set all speakers to small with a reasonable crossover to the sub. Balance each speaker's level and set their distance/delay. Put your I-Phone away. It serves no useful purpose.

Yeah don't trust the Iphone at all, did you run a calibration program on the iphone? Get a radio shack spl meter $40-50 and download Room EQ Wizard, free from hometheater shack. After running REW you can post the results and we can tell you how to fix certain things in the room to get a better response. Try running you system through just the Outlaw receiver take the Nakamichi amp out of the loop, if the amp is not connected by pre outs from the Outlaw don't use it. So you have the polks bi amp? with power going from the Outlaw and Nakamichi to each front speaker? THATS BAD just run the Outlaw.

The outlaw has pre-outs, which is what I use. Why is it so bad that I bi-amp with the nakamichi and the outlaw? I'm open, just curious. Supposedly the FFT app for the iphone is pretty decent, it's by studiosixdigital.com, check it out. I also have their SPL meter on my phone also.

And of course your I-Phone microphone is flat within, say +/- 1 db from 20 to 20,000 hz? Somehow I doubt it. :rolleyes:

The application knows that the iphone's mic isn't totally accurate, it accounts for the weakness and adjusts, supposedly. Here is a picture of the FFT with pink noise all channels driven, I can't remember my settings when I took this screenshot.

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/mesaplayer/HTA001.png

If I read your post correctly, you are running pink noise through all 5.1 channels simultaneously, correct? Well, considering that the frequency response of each speaker in the room is different from one and the other, there is no way you can get anywhere near flat frequency response. You need something like Audyssey that measures EACH speaker INDIVIDUALLY and applies correction to each speaker to obtain flat response in the room.

The outlaw doesn't have Audyssey, and I can't manually EQ each speaker. The EQ is applied to all speakers.

JHAz is correct. Do not run the mains as Large plus the sub. Set all speakers to small with a reasonable crossover to the sub. Balance each speaker's level and set their distance/delay. Put your I-Phone away. It serves no useful purpose.

When I run it small with x-over at, say, 80hz, I literally loose the kick drum completely, for what reason I don't know. I get decent low end, from the bass guitar. Just no punch from the kick.

The application knows that the iphone's mic isn't totally accurate, it accounts for the weakness and adjusts, supposedly. Here is a picture of the FFT with pink noise all channels driven, I can't remember my settings when I took this screenshot.

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/mesaplayer/HTA001.png

The outlaw doesn't have Audyssey, and I can't manually EQ each speaker. The EQ is applied to all speakers.

When I run it small with x-over at, say, 80hz, I literally loose the kick drum completely, for what reason I don't know. I get decent low end, from the bass guitar. Just no punch from the kick.

I don't know what that curve represents but I can tell you it is NOT the frequency response of your speakers in the room. You cannot achieve a flat room response by playing pink noise through all the channels simultaneously and twiddling the tone controls. It is acoustically impossible.

I know that your Outlaw does not have Audyssey. I was merely saying that in order to achieve flat response in the room, correction must be applied to each speaker INDIVIDUALLY by something like Audyssey, NOT by a simple tone control that affects all speakers simultaneously.

As far as losing the deep bass, have you calibrated the subwoofer by itself using the SPL meter (C-weighted, Slow response)? You have three speakers duplicating the bottom end but you have no control over the contribution of the left and right speaker to the sound. You are boosting the bass to all three with the tone control. The three in combination are probably exciting a room mode. Although that may sound good to you it is not correct response.

Its not a very good idea to use 2 different amps power a speaker, so you have speaker wire running from the Outlaw to the Polk and wire running from the Naka amp to the Polk? Use the the Naka amp only to power the F/R let the Outlaw power the rest. I agree with bluesky636 there is no way thats a accurate graph, i've been using REW and its no were near that smooth and I have superchunk basstraps and Audyssey. You can't calibrate by using pink noise with all channels at a time. Just download REW and buy yourself a true SPL meter.

Its not a very good idea to use 2 different amps power a speaker, so you have speaker wire running from the Outlaw to the Polk and wire running from the Naka amp to the Polk? Use the the Naka amp only to power the F/R let the Outlaw power the rest. I agree with bluesky636 there is no way thats a accurate graph, i've been using REW and its no were near that smooth and I have superchunk basstraps and Audyssey. You can't calibrate by using pink noise with all channels at a time. Just download REW and buy yourself a true SPL meter.

I DL'd REW last night, plan on getting a SPL in the next couple of days. And yes I have the highs powered by the outlaw (65w) and the mids and lows powered by the naka (150w) using the L/R pre outs on the outlaw. I don't mind just using the naka, but I still am curious as to why I shouldn't do it, so far I've just heard "no, not a good idea."

So, here's what I notice last night when I was tweaking with my system a little more. Avia asks me to match the spl of the front left with the LFE. Well that involves me turning the volume on the sub ALL the way up and it's still 10-15db below. If i were to match the SPL then I KNOW it is going to be WAY too loud because I normally keep it at 1/4-1/2 at the most. Of course I'm using the crappy SPL on my iPhone... BUT, I can use my ears also and tell when the volume is close, and I still get the same results.

I know I could just calibrate my whole system to "what sounds good to me" but I want the peace of mind that it sounds "correct."

Well, first, the "biamping" power does not sum to give you the equivalent of 215wpc of power.

Second, while it shouldn't hurt anything to do it, you do need a way to control the balance between the Nak amp and the receiver's output, otherwise the bass and mid/high levels will be out of balance with each other. Unless, perhaps, you've gotten very lucky and the Nak amp has the same gain as the amp section of the Outlaw receiver.

perhaps, you've gotten very lucky and the Nak amp has the same gain as the amp section of the Outlaw receiver.

Ah, an answer! :). Now that makes sense, I will only use the nak.

I know I could just calibrate my whole system to "what sounds good to me" but I want the peace of mind that it sounds "correct."

Unfortunately, you will never achieve that goal using the methods you have described in this thread.

Unfortunately, you will never achieve that goal using the methods you have described in this thread.

Well that is why I am here, to get schooled.