As I've been reading up on subwoofers lately I thought this question and have no experience to draw upon. How does a quality PA subwoofer used at Clubs, Churches, Music halls etc, -- something like the Yamaha - CW218V or the SW218V (just fit and finish differences - same sub setup) sound compared to the best commerical home theatre sub setups?

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downloads/data_sheets/speakers/Club_V_subwoofer_datasheet.pdf

It seems you can get quite a setup for potentially a lot less money. For example that highly reviewed Yamaha dual 18" enclosure is only about $700 for a unit. They quote about 132Db max. It is a heavy beast - 132 lbs so you can figure it is quality made. With a setup like this you could have four 18" subwoofers for the price of a single PC13 Ultra?!?!. The reviews on these things speak exceptionally of this product. One guy says you can hear them a half mile away, another says they used two of them in an auditorium of 550 people and even with that many people in that big an area the subs could still control your heartbeat, another guy says they push 1000 watts over the peak power rating and still can't get them to distort, and another sound engineer says he bought two for his home theatre he was so impressed with them. I read these review statements off the buyer reviews on musician's friend website.

Are these subs just not as "manerly" as something like the PC13-Ultra? or equivalent HSU offering? How would they compare? Are they not as flat/musical? I'd LOVE to demo all this kind of stuff side by side and see how it all falls out. My interest was sparked by a local mega church that my extended family all attends for Christmas pagents each year -- whatever sub setup they have can really make it almost feel hard to breath. I remember a thunderstorm/earthquake demonstration during a pagent that had several thousand people in the audience. The bass was absolutely impressive.

Has anyone ever considered trying one of these types of quality PA subs for home theatre use? What are their drawbacks? For the price it seems like you get a LOT of sub?

BTW - I'm not promoting Yamaha subs over any other PA sub. I don't know much at all about PA subs - hence the thread...just saw the price and the very positive reviews.

I don't think they dig as deep as subs meant for home theater.

I would like to add a couple subs like that for parties though..

Those subs are meant for music use and won't have the output nor extension down low of a quality dedicated HT sub. If you're strictly into music and a big ugly box in you living space with output capabilities meant for much larger spaces which would be overkill for a sane person in a normal sized room they are for you.

If you want a more refined looking sub in which most come with finish options with the capability pressurizing subsonic frequencies that you can feel as well as hear then go with a HT Sub.

As I've been reading up on subwoofers lately I thought this question and have no experience to draw upon. How does a quality PA subwoofer used at Clubs, Churches, Music halls etc, -- something like the Yamaha - CW218V or the SW218V (just fit and finish differences - same sub setup) sound compared to the best commerical home theatre sub setups?

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/...ETYP=ATTRIBUTE

It seems you can get quite a setup for potentially a lot less money. For example that highly reviewed Yamaha dual 18" enclosure is only about $700 for a unit. They quote about 132Db max. It is a heavy beast - 132 lbs so you can figure it is quality made. With a setup like this you could have four 18" subwoofers for the price of a single PC13 Ultra?!?!. The reviews on these things speak exceptionally of this product. One guy says you can hear them a half mile away, another says they used two of them in an auditorium of 550 people and even with that many people in that big an area the subs could still control your heartbeat, another guy says they push 1000 watts over the peak power rating and still can't get them to distort, and another sound engineer says he bought two for his home theatre he was so impressed with them. I read these review statements off the buyer reviews on musician's friend website.

Are these subs just not as "manerly" as something like the PC13-Ultra? or equivalent HSU offering? How would they compare? Are they not as flat/musical? I'd LOVE to demo all this kind of stuff side by side and see how it all falls out. My interest was sparked by a local mega church that my extended family all attends for Christmas pagents each year -- whatever sub setup they have can really make it almost feel hard to breath. I remember a thunderstorm/earthquake demonstration during a pagent that had several thousand people in the audience. The bass was absolutely impressive.

Has anyone ever considered trying one of these types of quality PA subs for home theatre use? What are their drawbacks? For the price it seems like you get a LOT of sub?

BTW - I'm not promoting Yamaha subs over any other PA sub. I don't know much at all about PA subs - hence the thread...just saw the price and the very positive reviews.

Hi,

I have 3 PA and 2 HT subwoofers in my HT. You can find PA subwoofers which goes down to 25-30 Hz for a solid price, they have more spl, higher sensitivity 1W/1m then HT subwoofers but they dont dig so low - except Danleysoundlabs subwoofers :cool: . With music they have chest punch, low distortion - specially horn or tapped loaded subwoofers :)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOZ9aGlvK_I

I guess if you are on a strict/low budget (and you don't forsee pouring any more $$ into it in the near future), like to listen really loud and your room is large say > 500 sq ft, it may make more sense to start this way I guess.

If at any time you want to extend the bass down, just reserve some space for a ULF sub to cover 10-30Hz, say a sealed Mal-X. That can operate nearfield to provide enough SPL but yet remain literally unlocatable, eg behind the seat.

Hi,

I have 3 PA and 2 HT subwoofers in my HT. You can find PA subwoofers which goes down to 25-30 Hz for a solid price, they have more spl, higher sensitivity 1W/1m then HT subwoofers but they dont dig so low - except Danleysoundlabs subwoofers :cool: . With music they have chest punch, low distortion - specially horn or tapped loaded subwoofers :)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOZ9aGlvK_I

Nice video. Can you provide your opinion on using these PA's alone without a home theatre sub? Do you feel they get low enough - or is a combination required? I can't say I know what the difference between 20 hz at 100Db and 30 hz at 100Db feels like.

Just think of it like this...30 hz gets loud, but you don't really feel it that much. 20 hz shakes the room if played loud enough.

I used 2 folded horn 18 subs in my theater at one time and I hit(uncorrected) 125 db's during many of the big bass movies and 110 db's on the movie pulse which is 15-19 hz. Again uncorrected. The folded horns were tuned to 20-25 hz and did rolloff but more like a sealed sub. The midbass was to die for. The DIY sealed subs I have now comes close in the midbass but has a more visceral feel to them. They pressurize and shake the room much more than the horns did but the horns were very nice.

I used 2 folded horn 18 subs in my theater at one time and I hit(uncorrected) 125 db's during many of the big bass movies and 110 db's on the movie pulse which is 15-19 hz. Again uncorrected. The folded horns were tuned to 20-25 hz and did rolloff but more like a sealed sub. The midbass was to die for. The DIY sealed subs I have now comes close in the midbass but has a more visceral feel to them. They pressurize and shake the room much more than the horns did but the horns were very nice.

HOLY COW MKtheater - is that your home theater speaker set in the picture at the base of your thread? That's crazy! What plans did you use for the DIY subs you are currently using?

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=23807&CNTYP=PRODUCT

So I'm still considering a CW218V set. Looks to be about $729 shipped from a bunch of different places. How would one of these sub sets sound in addition to a $750 range SVS, HSU, or Outlaw type sub for the extreme low excursions? I have two Infinity HPS-1000 Subs now. Can you mix and match these types of subs easily? Would my American DJ V3000 amplifier be sufficient to drive them from my Onkyo NR1007?

You're lookin kinda like what I'm runnin on the pro sub side and receiver. I have this http://madisonamps.com/2006%20archive/products/pa/m1218.htm in conjunction with 2)DTS 10s and currently use an Onkyo 1007. The dual sub outs really help in getting them to play together. The pro sub sounds punchy but on demanding LFE it's not as comfortable. I do like the combo of the 2.

You're lookin kinda like what I'm runnin on the pro sub side and receiver. I have this http://madisonamps.com/2006%20archive/products/pa/m1218.htm in conjunction with 2)DTS 10s and currently use an Onkyo 1007. The dual sub outs really help in getting them to play together. The pro sub sounds punchy but on demanding LFE it's not as comfortable. I do like the combo of the 2.

So you were able to properly integrate the DTS-10s and the Madison together? What settings did you use?

"The pro sub sounds punchy but on demanding LFE it's not as comfortable. I do like the combo of the 2. "

How do the DTS10's compare in the midbass to your madison 18's?

So you were able to properly integrate the DTS-10s and the Madison together? What settings did you use?

This is going by ear but when I had the madison up front it took away from the visceral impact I was getting with the DTS 10s alone. Further on music it was just OK, it didn't sound or feel like I thought it should with that kind of orsepower on tap,so I disconnected the Madison for awhile. Then I tried side wall placement, messed with levels independently on the 1007 and implemented an anit mode 8033 on the Madison. After that they finally sounded like one big sub. Both subs are run off the LFE, LPF set at 100hz due to nearfield placement of my DTS 10s and my L and R are crossed at 80hz.

Typically, it's been my experience that the box is the overwhelming weak point of these inexpensive pro audio/mi subs. Overly resonant, ringing, flexing, that contributes negatively to the overall output. Also, some have unusually high tuning, hence the "punchy" sound.

Live audio seldom requires the LF that HT demands. The lowest note on a 4 string bass is 41hz., and most bass guitar spectrum is much, much higher. The kick drum freqs are much higher, 80 or so but it varies. Keys or synths can dig down but not that deep. Plus, when working live, VLF can become problematic with vibrations and feedback.

There are exceptions, and there are some nice new pa subs that really go deep (Danley in particular).

Now back to the sub in question. With some very agressive eq and a ton of power, I'd say it'd be worth a try at the right price.

"The pro sub sounds punchy but on demanding LFE it's not as comfortable. I do like the combo of the 2. "

How do the DTS10's compare in the midbass to your madison 18's?

Maybe because the DTS 10s are so clean aka low in distortion that they sound a bit more lean higher up. This is desirable as you really don't want a sub nearfield (in my application) drawing attention to itself but for me there was still a gap between my L and R and the DTS 10s. With Madison it really narrowed that gap. Now I'm not 100% sure I'll be keeping the Madison in play but after having it in the mix i definitely want something in that postition and to fulfill that role. When I say uncomfortable I was particularly referencing Kung Fu Panda in a scene where the DTS 10s never broke a sweat and I could see the cones of Madison really moving and not as clean from what I'm used to hearing. If I could find something that could offer the midbass but handle the VLF with less distress it would go up another level still. CS 18.2 and Orbit Shifter come to mind.

High pass 'em, delay 'em properly and use 'em nearfield for that tactile, visceral slam that satisfies!

The DTS 10s are some heffers and I managed to fit them side by side against the back wall in a space 122" wide so only an inch available on each side. They aren't goin anywhere so I have to play around them. Between the DTS 10s behind and dual 18s on the side soon to be joined by 6)15s on midbass duty up front (via new mains) I'll have the tactile part covered. The dual 18s actually serve more as an accent and to even out coverage but I know better can be had for HT purposes.

I've never quite forgotten about these subs. They are now $629 on amazon. Any new opinions?

I've never quite forgotten about these subs. They are now $629 on amazon. Any new opinions?

Can't really comment on the Yamaha but if I was to go with a pro audio sub I'd probably end up with this.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--JBLSRX718S

The madison subs I had were dual 18 inch folded horns and dual twin 18's like gpmbc's. I liked the folded horns better on the midbass for sure. Nowadays you can get both with a good sub. Still, those folded horns were very punchy and I could not imagine HPing them.

One of my Infinity HPS-1000's is STILL in the shop (four months now), and the other one died at the super bowl party. I'm considering PA subs to be a second sub and use the other HPS-1000 as the main sub on my Onkyo 1007 receiver. (It has two sub outputs and both can be controlled separately through audessey)

Bump for more input!

The PA won't play low for HT. If you have enough other sub to cover the low then it will work good as second sub if set up and integrated properly. This is not as easy as it sounds though, and will take a lot of work to get a balanced frequency response to below 20hz.

Four months to get it fixed is a joke and now the other one is broken. What kind of a guarantee do you get with the repair? If it breaks again, one PA sub for HT will be lacking. I would advise moving on and get a newer home theater sub or two. At the same time you have been thinking about this for over a year and a half and I think you should try it just so you can put it behind you. Otherwise you will be back asking the same thing in 6 months. The points have been made and I think the decision is in your hands at this time.

Do folded horns suffer the same effects of too much excursion, similar to standard vented subs...below tuning?

If you really look into the drivers used for most of the PA subs I think you'd find the XMAX is small compared to what we are used to seeing. One way XMAX in the single digits is not uncommon. Still though, these things would produce great MBMs especially when used in stereo! I could see using folded horn or sealed PA subs right up front for say, 35-100 Hz...then using something like one or more monster low tuned ported DIY subs for 10-35 Hz.

But for those wanting a simpler setup, if anyone finds a PA sub that "accidently" does well down to 20 Hz (other than the Danley already mentioned) by all means post up.

This thread just won't flush...

First thing to take note of when comparing these to commercial offerings is that the subwoofer you are talking about has NO included amplifier. Once you pay for an amplifier that can push 1-2K watts, you're right up there with the price of an PB13-Ultra.

My first knee-jerk reaction would be to run them with an amp high-passed somewhere much lower. (Providing the box doesn't have a high-pass filter built in) But then, running them to a much lower extension could get them to blow. Sure, one sound engineer says he pushed them 1000W past their rating, but at what frequency? My guess is that if you pushed them at 10Hz even at their rated power, they would probably bottom out. To get them to go lower, the box will have to be sealed. (so are these sealed? I can't tell from the pictures) Even then, what would be the tuning point? I don't know much about DIY, but I know enough to know that box volume plays a large role in how low they can or can't go. At first glance, these boxes don't look nearly as large as some of the sealed DIY designs meant to go into single digit frequencies. So now we are left with taking the drivers out and putting them in a new box.

Having said that, it could be worth it to buy it just for the drivers, but be careful with that. $325 per driver is cheaper than some of the options on DIY Cable and PartsExpress. But you would want to assure that these drivers are indeed worth that price. If you are willing to try that, you may want to ask over on the DIY side about such a possibility. (Or perhaps one of our DIY folks could confirm or kill that idea right here)

This thread just won't flush...

First thing to take note of when comparing these to commercial offerings is that the subwoofer you are talking about has NO included amplifier. Once you pay for an amplifier that can push 1-2K watts, you're right up there with the price of an PB13-Ultra.

I already have an amplifier on hand -- so in my case no extra expense required. I have an American DJ V3000 amp capable of 1,500 watts at four ohms. I think I paid around $250 for it on ebay used.
http://www.americandj.com/pdffiles/V3000.pdf

At any rate, even for somebody without an amp --- they can buy one for about $250 on ebay then buy a set of the discussed 18" PA speakers for low $600's for a total of about $850. Compare that to a PB13-ultra at about $1600 +. Not really similar prices...

I already have an amplifier on hand -- so in my case no extra expense required. I have an American DJ V3000 amp capable of 1,500 watts at four ohms. I think I paid around $250 for it on ebay used.
http://www.americandj.com/pdffiles/V3000.pdf

At any rate, even for somebody without an amp --- they can buy one for about $250 on ebay then buy a set of the discussed 18" PA speakers for low $600's for a total of about $850. Compare that to a PB13-ultra at about $1600 +. Not really similar prices...

Not really similar performance, either. The pb13 is flat as a pancake from over 200 Hz to just above 20 Hz (and only starts to compress a bit at around 105 dB) while the JBL cited above, which goes pretty low for a PA sub, is rated at 10 decibels down by 31 Hz, and starts to roll off 12 dB per octave at 50 Hz. It's not that the PA subs are bad, but they're built to do something different. If you don't care about anything below 40 Hz you might be better off just getting good main speakers.

I already have an amplifier on hand -- so in my case no extra expense required. I have an American DJ V3000 amp capable of 1,500 watts at four ohms. I think I paid around $250 for it on ebay used.
http://www.americandj.com/pdffiles/V3000.pdf

At any rate, even for somebody without an amp --- they can buy one for about $250 on ebay then buy a set of the discussed 18" PA speakers for low $600's for a total of about $850. Compare that to a PB13-ultra at about $1600 +. Not really similar prices...

Okay, so since you have an amp, now you just need signal processing to get the response flat. That, and you need to take the drivers out of the box and put them into a box tuned to lower frequencies which would be expected in a home theater environment. 20Hz is pretty much expected for any serious HT subwoofer. But with dual 18s, you should be able to get to single digits, depending on your room size, gain, etc.

This will be a DIY project for sure. If you just get the box and hook it up, you're going to be missing much of the lowest frequencies. I'd really recommend creating a topic for this on the DIY forum. In essence, you will be getting this just to cannibalize the drivers and mount them in a new box. But without knowing the specifications of the drivers, it may well be more trouble than its worth.

Of course, if you just want tons of SPL and to heck with the extension, go for it. Maybe if it has enough headroom, you could get to 20Hz in room... but you'd have to apply a lot of EQ to tone down everything within it's tuning range...

I wouldn't want to rebuild a box. I've not had good luck with the DIY arena in the past.

If you were not going to be using the cabinet, it would not be worth it unless you find a killer deal on used pro subs. For the $600+ you could get a lot better quality driver, all else being equal.

Speaking generally about "pro" subs rather than about any specific one...

The PA won't play low for HT. If you have enough other sub to cover the low then it will work good as second sub if set up and integrated properly. This is not as easy as it sounds though, and will take a lot of work to get a balanced frequency response to below 20hz.

Depends on how low one thinks s/he needs to go. For many, lots of output with a corner in the mid-20's in-room is a perfect compromise. A good pro subwoofer (I used the Tannoy B475 (http://www.tannoy.com/products/260/b475%20Brochure.pdf) for a long time, and replaced it not for performance reasons but because it was big and ugly) can anchor a proper (which is to say, multisub) system quite well in either the "ULF" or "BroadBand" roles if one is more concerned with useable output than specsmanship.

This thread just won't flush...

First thing to take note of when comparing these to commercial offerings is that the subwoofer you are talking about has NO included amplifier. Once you pay for an amplifier that can push 1-2K watts, you're right up there with the price of an PB13-Ultra.

What makes you think such power is automatically needed? Down low, power requirements for a big cone in a large box (that description fits pretty much all "pro" subs) are not that high. And at the top of its passband, the "pro" sub is going to often be more than 10dB more efficient. That means in the upper bass a pro sub powered by a 300W amp will give you as much or more output than a 3kW amp in a sub a quarter the size... (And often sound better, because of two factors: less heat in the motor, and often better thermal management in the motor.)

So part of the draw to these subs is the outstanding reviews --- I mean people GUSHING over them, and the exceptionally low price???!!! $629 + free prime shipping!!! Heck -- I think I'm going to go for it. If I don't like them I'll just resell on craigs list and take a hit I suppose.

My outstanding question before I purchase is how do I hook these guys up?

I have an American DJ amp - the V-3000. It only has speaker wire outputs as shown in the linked PDF manual.
http://www.adjaudio.com/pdffiles/V3000.pdf

However, the yamah sw218v uses "1/4" phone jack x 2, SPEAKON Neutrik NL4MP x 2"
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downloads/data_sheets/speakers/Club_V_subwoofer_datasheet.pdf

I'm not sure what those are or how I would convert to them from the speaker wire output? Any ideas?

I've heard some other recommendations over the yamaha's --- but not specific models - if you guys have other specific model recommendations - speak now --- or forever hold your peace! Keep in mind the price is the draw! If you go up too high in price I'd just prefer to purchase the new HSU VTF-15 or one of the SVS models. I love to feel my bass and think two 18" subs could really offer some pressure in my 3500 ^3 room!

Since BOTH of my Infinty HPS -1000 units are out of commission currently -- I've moved my dual infinity kappa perfect 10.1 units in a bandpass box from my car into my home theatre for temporary duty. They actually hit really hard in the room with the American DJ amp, but are pretty boomy in their current bandpass box. In face they can actually hurt my ears a little bit which I'm really surprised at in this much airspace --- but I don't really want boomy in my home theatre! I'm assuming the Yamaha's won't be boomy?

So part of the draw to these subs is the outstanding reviews --- I mean people GUSHING over them, and the exceptionally low price???!!! $629 + free prime shipping!!! Heck -- I think I'm going to go for it. If I don't like them I'll just resell on craigs list and take a hit I suppose.

My outstanding question before I purchase is how do I hook these guys up?

I have an American DJ amp - the V-3000. It only has speaker wire outputs as shown in the linked PDF manual.
http://www.adjaudio.com/pdffiles/V3000.pdf

However, the yamah sw218v uses "1/4" phone jack x 2, SPEAKON Neutrik NL4MP x 2"
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downloads/data_sheets/speakers/Club_V_subwoofer_datasheet.pdf

I'm not sure what those are or how I would convert to them from the speaker wire output? Any ideas?

I've heard some other recommendations over the yamaha's --- but not specific models - if you guys have other specific model recommendations - speak now --- or forever hold your peace! Keep in mind the price is the draw! If you go up too high in price I'd just prefer to purchase the new HSU VTF-15 or one of the SVS models. I love to feel my bass and think two 18" subs could really offer some pressure in my 3500 ^3 room!

Since BOTH of my Infinty HPS -1000 units are out of commission currently -- I've moved my dual infinity kappa perfect 10.1 units in a bandpass box from my car into my home theatre for temporary duty. They actually hit really hard in the room with the American DJ amp, but are pretty boomy in their current bandpass box. In face they can actually hurt my ears a little bit which I'm really surprised at in this much airspace --- but I don't really want boomy in my home theatre! I'm assuming the Yamaha's won't be boomy?


You use a cable with bananas at one end and a quarter inch or Speakons. You are lnly plugging one end of the cable into the amp and one end into the speaker. You don't have to have the same ends on both ends. Go to a Guitar Center and you'll find premade cables like this.

I really don't think you will be disappointed with them down low.
I mean the amount that these 18's will have to move to make decent 20hz
Sound is a joke compared to the SVS. I mean they have 4 times the surface area. The boxes are bigger too.
There will be no comparison to the level of impact these will give over a good HT sub. In the 30-80 range, in your room, they should be impressive.
I'm interested to see what you think of them. It's a heck of a deal at that price.

Well the decision was made.

I bought the CW218V and two 25' speakeron to bananna cable adapters with overnight shipping for $771.22 (Thanks to Amazon $4 overnight shipping with my Amazon prime membership). Think about them shipping that 150lb 2.5 foot by 5 foot sub box overnight for $4. Amazon Prime ROCKS!

If I don't decide to keep it, that's okay - it's probably worth $75 to $100 that Amazon told me it would cost to return them if I didn't like them and put this age old question to bed. What's even better is that I'm hosting the KC subwoofer meet this weekend and I'll be able to compare this sub setup directly against several top players
HSU VTF-15H
Epik Empire
SVS PC13-Ultra Sledge Amp
SVS PB12 Plus
Jamo D7Sub
Seaton Submersive

Here is the KC meet thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1328798


If I do keep them I'm at no loss. I can finally put my age old question to rest. How do a set of 18" club subs sound in a home theatre room ---- and what better time to try them out than when we have (hopefully) all the other best of breed subs to compare them to.

HOLY CRAP -- These things hit like being in a club and I'm not even anywhere near their capabilities!!!!!! My amp is only turned up moderately and these things hit like nothing I've ever owned! My first impression was a big grin and laugh after powering them on. They have SOOOOOOO much headroom. For music --- WOW! I can tell on a few songs that I just listened to last night on my Jamo D7Sub (+/- 3dB to 20hz) that these Yamaha's are missing a bit of the low, but the power capability is soooooooo much higher --- not even comparable. I'll report back later after I have some time with these. At this moment I'm not disappointed with my purchse of these subs in the slightest!!!!!! HUGE - HUGE cabinet, and very impressively built for this price! How in the world do they make this thing for this price?

I'm not sure if I'm going to keep these this CW218v set or not, but I gotta admit, after calibrating them with audessey and using a 30hz low cut crossover to eliminate the uber low hz -- these are a lot of fun to listen to!! :cool: If your primary purpose is music I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them for volume and fun!

They are not the best for home theatre -- low LFE is missing - scenes like WOTW and Incredible Hulk are just flat out missing some of the 'cool' fun factor of a good subwoofer -- but they do make up for it somewhat on the loudness factor alone :) I can make them pop/distort at the 30hz low cut if I push them too hard, for movies they really need a 50hz low cut if you want to approach reference, but that sucks. So they really are better suited for movies at -5 from reference as a practical max with a 30hz crossover and a movie scene with ultra low LFE. For music - crank these bad boys as loud as you want -- they've got more headroom than your ears can take!

Tomorrow I'm going to audition a pair of counsil's SVS PC13 Ultra's in my room and get an idea of what opposite ends of the spectrum as far as subwoofer designs can do. The SVS will likely be the clear victor --- but then these are $729 shipped from amazon. The SVS would cost about $3.8K with shipping new! Thus I can safely say the CW218V are well worth the price of admission in my opinion!

Two 18's that bottom out at 30hz vs. Two 13's that will be tuned to 15hz.

Should be an interesting evening tomorrow! I'll report back.

I'm not sure if I'm going to keep these this CW218v set or not, but I gotta admit, after calibrating them with audessey and using a 30hz high cut crossover to eliminate the uber low hz -- these are a lot of fun to listen to!! :cool: If your primary purpose is music I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them for volume and fun!

They are not the best for home theatre -- low LFE is missing - scenes like WOTW and Incredible Hulk are just flat out missing some of the 'cool' fun factor of a good subwoofer -- but they do make up for it somewhat on the loudness factor alone :) I can make them pop/distort at the 30hz high cut if I push them too hard, for movies they really need a 50hz hi cut if you want to approach reference, but that sucks. So they really are better suited for movies at -5 from reference as a practical max with a 30hz crossover and a movie scene with ultra low LFE. For music - crank these bad boys as loud as you want -- they've got more headroom than your ears can take!

Tomorrow I'm going to audition a pair of counsil's SVS PC13 Ultra's in my room and get an idea of what opposite ends of the spectrum as far as subwoofer designs can do. The SVS will likely be the clear victor --- but then these are $729 shipped from amazon. The SVS would cost about $3.8K with shipping new! Thus I can safely say the CW218V are well worth the price of admission in my opinion!

Two 18's that bottom out at 30hz vs. Two 13's that will be tuned to 15hz.

Should be an interesting evening tomorrow! I'll report back.

I am sure it will be interesting to read the follow up :).

I'm not sure if I'm going to keep these this CW218v set or not, but I gotta admit, after calibrating them with audessey and using a 30hz high cut crossover to eliminate the uber low hz -- these are a lot of fun to listen to!! :cool: If your primary purpose is music I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them for volume and fun!

They are not the best for home theatre -- low LFE is missing - scenes like WOTW and Incredible Hulk are just flat out missing some of the 'cool' fun factor of a good subwoofer -- but they do make up for it somewhat on the loudness factor alone :) I can make them pop/distort at the 30hz high cut if I push them too hard, for movies they really need a 50hz hi cut if you want to approach reference, but that sucks. So they really are better suited for movies at -5 from reference as a practical max with a 30hz crossover and a movie scene with ultra low LFE. For music - crank these bad boys as loud as you want -- they've got more headroom than your ears can take!

Tomorrow I'm going to audition a pair of counsil's SVS PC13 Ultra's in my room and get an idea of what opposite ends of the spectrum as far as subwoofer designs can do. The SVS will likely be the clear victor --- but then these are $729 shipped from amazon. The SVS would cost about $3.8K with shipping new! Thus I can safely say the CW218V are well worth the price of admission in my opinion!

Two 18's that bottom out at 30hz vs. Two 13's that will be tuned to 15hz.

Should be an interesting evening tomorrow! I'll report back.

heck, run the PAs and the Svs subs together!

Yeah, the Yamaha was crazy punchy on the John Mayer scene and the Tron scene. I wish I could have heard how it sounded on the other music clips.

How high do you have the crossover set for music? I'm using 150hz with my Captivator for music, it just sounds punchier that way. I don't have a 120hz option, my pioneer only has 50, 80, 100, 150, and 200 for crossover options.

My LFE crossover maxes out at 120hz on my Onkyo TX-NR1007, but I've actually set to the Yamaha recommended 90hz as noted in the CW218V manual and also verbally relayed by a Yamaha CSR. The yamaha's are spec'ed to be +- 10dB between 30hz and 2,000hz - so I don't know why they say 90hz is ideal, but I just went with that. If I had an option to go as high as your pioneer - I'd probably give 200hz or so a try - maybe I'll jump them to 120hz max again. Truthfully I couldn't tell much difference between 90 and 120hz when I casually tried previously. I wasn't critically listening, but just flipping the settings around..


We are meeting at my place tonight to demo a pair of counsil's SVS subs in my room. carp you are welcome to join us if you like. I still have your track jacket, so you could kill two birds with one stone. I believe luke will be there as well.

I probably won't be able to get there until close to 9:00. Is that too late?

Depends on how far you are driving. I don't know how late the guys were planning on staying, but I'd think by about 10PM the sound will have to be turned down to -15 from reference if anybody is still around. I know counsil wanted to bring all his equipment and get the SVS setup right. I've got a two year old and a wife who I promised I would allow to sleep tonight! ;)

What's with you and only showing up at the end of a party? :D

I am just going to swing by for a bit to check it out. I have family in and out of town today through Friday and a rehearsal dinner that night with wedding to attend Saturday.

You guys are going to love that THX amazing life trailer when you make it over as I tried it out last night. Measured corrected value of 112db @16hz in seats with radio shack meter and test tones also. With the darn center channel I bought coming broken and just getting new battery for laptop, still haven't had time to take measurements with omnimic.

;)

What's with you and only showing up at the end of a party? :D

Ha! Yeah, I know.... :(

The wife wants to wrap up some vacation plans/bookings etc. when she gets home and it's my night to put the girls to bed.

It's not too far a drive so I don't mind.

They are not the best for home theatre -- low LFE is missing -

Did you expect otherwise? I thought this was told to you by others in this thread?

To the OP, I think you should make it perfectly clear that you have exactly one Yamaha. The way your post reads, someone might come to the conclusion that you have dual Yamaha's (while you really mean that one Yamaha has two 18 inch drivers).

Did you expect otherwise? I thought this was told to you by others in this thread?

My hope was that I wouldn't miss it and that the spl Max of 136 db would allow enough overhead that I would get sufficient quality bass in a small home theater room. It almost worked and as I mentioned, the yamaha largely does not disappoint, especially considering the price. I'm glad I had the experience to compare it directly to so many subs.

Spyboy,

You are correct. I only have one CW218V. It is one box with two 18" eminence drivers

Why not keep the Yammy for midbass impact? You have the perfect blend of subs handling the low bass and a sub handling the mid and upper bass with authority.

Say it ain't so!!! I thought the combination of the Ultra's and the Yamaha was a great match. I know a lot of your music has pretty deep bass and you won't miss the Yamaha as much but you know you're going to miss the slam on some music!

Oh well, it's so much easier spending someone else's money.:)

I honestly preffered the Captivator for movies and music but not by much, AND that opinion comes with the disclaimer that my audio memory is also horrific and I'm completely biased which could be slanting my view of things.

When I got home last night I popped in T2 with the same scene we watched over there, and it sounded pretty good but by nowhere near some other movie scenes I've watched over here. I figured I'd check the meter and I got 114 on the cop car blowing up. What the hell. When I measured before on Hot Fuzz and Return of the King I was getting 108 and I was hit with so much more impact and it seemed louder too. I would have guessed that the T2 scene would have been 12db lower than those other scenes.

I officially don't belive in spl measurements anymore!!:eek:

Why not keep the Yammy for midbass impact? You have the perfect blend of subs handling the low bass and a sub handling the mid and upper bass with authority.

I agree. The Yammy is already at the house and WAF doesn't seem to be a factor. I also assume that you are not tight on cash. Why not keep all three subs?

Say it ain't so!!! I thought the combination of the Ultra's and the Yamaha was a great match. I know a lot of your music has pretty deep bass and you won't miss the Yamaha as much but you know you're going to miss the slam on some music!

Oh well, it's so much easier spending someone else's money.:)

I honestly preffered the Captivator for movies and music but not by much, AND that opinion comes with the disclaimer that my audio memory is also horrific and I'm completely biased which could be slanting my view of things.

When I got home last night I popped in T2 with the same scene we watched over there, and it sounded pretty good but by nowhere near some other movie scenes I've watched over here. I figured I'd check the meter and I got 114 on the cop car blowing up. What the hell. When I measured before on Hot Fuzz and Return of the King I was getting 108 and I was hit with so much more impact and it seemed louder too. I would have guessed that the T2 scene would have been 12db lower than those other scenes.

I officially don't belive in spl measurements anymore!!:eek:

My radioshack meter is -9 @ 16hz according to the correction tables. So it reads 103 when it is actually ~112 db. It probably has a lot to do with the spectral content (16hz vs. 50hz) of the scenes and how off your meter is at that frequency. If you burst those test tones and use the correction table for your meter you will have better idea of what you are getting. Since your driver can take much more power than your amp can deliver, I wouldn't be to worried about damaging that beastly driver (watch the clipping lights so they are not constantly on so driver getting clean signal). Every 3 db takes a doubling of driver's excursion and power. Since you run out of power first the driver should never be approaching its excursion limits.

They are not the best for home theatre -- low LFE is missing -


Isn't that what a page and a half of posters just told you?

Isn't that what a page and a half of posters just told you?

you want a cookie?



:P


I couldn't really relate to what deep bass versus mid bass versus high bass was before I hosted that KC subwoofer meet, so all the explanations didn't make sense. Now I understand them and know what I like. I appreciate people trying to help explain through the course of this thread and in re-reading some of the initial comments they make more sense to me know after I've had the experience hearing various subwoofers.

Interesting read, funny how things are lost on the forum over time, in regards to older posts.

I had a pair of JL F113 when they initially came out, but sold and made a DIY sub that was much better to my ears. It was a 20 or 25cu ft enclosure, Soundsplinter RLP-18. Great sub, very strong output from 8hz up. Hell, 5hz was still pretty strong. Ended up selling that as well to make room in my studio as I am a part time DJ and needed the space.

Fast forward a bit, sold all the home theater gear, now I just use a JBL SRX700 (SRX725s, 728s.. pair of each) setup in the house when I don't have gigs. Am I missing the low-lows? Yes. Are they worth the extra coin? Maybe to some.. But clean, undistorted output from 20hz up is really what impresses people, myself included.

Many members on this forum tend to exaggerate how incredible that low output is. Yes, it is awesome.. But not as satisfying as one may think.

As with many things in life, the concept is much better than the reality. The journey also tends to be where most of the fun is, haha.

I personally wouldn't have compared the Yamaha, as one may think that all pro audio gear may sound as bad as them.. but hey, what can you do. I'm glad you were able to compare and make an informed decision.

I agree with you for music - I don't think for the most part you'd ever miss the deep hits, and the extra SPL capability is great to have! but for movies the difference is night and day and easily recognizable!

I take it you don't hold a high opinion of the Yamaha's. They review very well for the price. Pretty much five star subs by nearly all customer reviews. Their positive reviews and cheaper price made them my choice. I was listening to some music on pandora last night with just the SVS and truthfully missed some of the sound of the yamaha, but again - I'm still playing with the SVS calibration - by all accounts I should be able to really enjoy them for music too! I'm still only using the 15hz tune and haven't tried the 10, 20, or sealed tunes yet.

I agree with you for music - I don't think for the most part you'd ever miss the deep hits, and the extra SPL capability is great to have! but for movies the difference is night and day and easily recognizable!

I take it you don't hold a high opinion of the Yamaha's. They review very well for the price. Pretty much five star subs by nearly all customer reviews. Their positive reviews and cheaper price made them my choice. I was listening to some music on pandora last night with just the SVS and truthfully missed some of the sound of the yamaha, but again - I'm still playing with the SVS calibration - by all accounts I should be able to really enjoy them for music too! I'm still only using the 15hz tune and haven't tried the 10, 20, or sealed tunes yet.

There are many songs that play deep, but not as deep as the movies of course :)

For not much more coin the JBL MRX528S would have been a better option, as I have had that set up as well. Much better than the Yamaha.

no doubt the JBL is a fine unit for its intended purpose. Specified to be -3dB at 40 Hz and -10 dB at 35 Hz, so absent significant room gain, the lowest octave is pretty much gone. Like any pro sub.

I've got the yamaha in the mix today after a couple days of just the SVS.

I like the music sound best with all three. I think I've got to find a way to keep the whole setup. :D

I've got the yamaha in the mix today after a couple days of just the SVS.

I like the music sound best with all three. I think I've got to find a way to keep the whole setup. :D

I knew you would. Time to take the wife on a little vacation or pick up a little gift? Second job mabey?:p

Right now I have the sub 1 and sub 2 out configured for 120hz crossover on my Onkyo TX-NR1007. Sub 1 is set with a Y splitter out to the two SVS subs which are gain matched. Sub 2 is sent to the American DJ V3000 amp.

I have a 50hz low cut set on the American DJ amp to the Yamaha - so it only plays 50hz to 120hz

I have a 80hz crossover set on the SVS pair's plate amp - so they only play 80hz and below to their configured 15hz subsonic filter setting. (one port plugged)

My mains are set to 50hz crossover - so they are playing 50hz and up!

This seems to give me the best of both worlds. SVS at 15hz tune for that low in movies and modern music and the Yamaha powering through the mids (turned up a bit higher than what a flat FR would require ;) ) for classic rock, and older non techno/electronica/rap music! I'll play with the crossover settings more in the next few days.

I'm hoping I'm wrong and can send the Yamaha back, because $700 isn't chump change and I'd like to pocket that money -- but I do like the combined sound better it seems, and I did give the SVS a fair shake I think with two days of listening without the Yamaha in the mix! I wish I had a few more opinions on this from local listening. I think I'll invite a few people over before the ninth (when the Yamaha has to be returned if I don't keep it) and let them give me their subjective opinion before I make my final decision.

heheheh

I love the way these subs sound together...

heheheh

Listening to music the last couple hours --- enjoying it more than ever...

flo rida - right round is on the combo right now and sounds incredible!

Hi all, I read all this with great interest and will continue to follow it closely. I eventually bought a Jamo D-7 sub for its musicality (is that a word?) and am quite happy with it. It also goes plenty deep for my tastes and all these explosions and rumblings in the movies are easily heard and felt for the younger generation who really seem to go for it.

But I'm reminded of some cheap speakers I made for myself. If I recollect the woofers were 15", and at the time I had access to some lab equipment so I was able to take some measurements and find resonant frequency etc. I also remember I did a lot of calculations for the box dimensions and followed them to a tee. To make a long story short, they wound up being huge (roughly 4' x 3' x 2'), and kind of ugly. No prob, at the time I was a happpy bachelor. They were also VERY cheap (there were not of sophisticated speaker manufacturers around in Brazil at the time).

Anyway... they sounded absolutely great. I think the kind of sound that ultimately pleases me the most is when a studio-recorded CD sounds like a live performance. In my view, I think the bass response has a lot to do with that impression of being in front of a live show. I think I read in this thread that the lowest note on a bass guitar is 41 Hz. If that's the case I bet that I would be perfectly happy with a sub going to, say, 30 Hz and forget all this 20 Hz BS "rattling the dishes".

I am seriously toying with the idea of building a big PA sub for my music. I could combine with the existing HT sub to keep the kids happy. Only problem, I'm sure anything that I build would not be allowed in the living room...<<ahem>> (I am not the most talented cabinet-maker).

So good luck with your research Archea and keep posting.

I've nearly changed my mind yet again. The Yamaha sounds great for music, but overall the SVS PB13 Ultra pair sounds better to me and they have the low fun feel that the Yamaha can NEVER deliver. I had a couple of friends over today and we spent a few hours listening to the SVS with and without the Yamaha and decided that overall while the Yamaha has merits and potentially adds a wee bit to the overall sound of the setup when properly configured -- it probably isn't worth $700 worth of wee extra. The subs don't blend well overall, and without lots of crossover playing to eliminate overlap the combination sounds muddier together than either sounds individually. More on that later. As I've said before some music - in my opinion - just sounds better on the Yamaha - mainly old rock, or anything that I can crank the amp gain way hot and enjoy some midbass guitars and drums. (but that preference is subjective, one of my friends didn't even like the Yamaha's sound on my favorite song I'd found to show the strength of the Yamaha. -- He prefered the SVS sound) I've discovered for me to really be enthused about the Yamaha sound I have to run it quite a bit hotter than I typically would run a sub setting. When I gain match the SVS and the Yamaha's using REW the subs are much more similar for music preference, but the Yamaha doesn't hit low for the modern music - thus if gain matched the SVS win quite handidly. For modern rap music, top 40 music, and electronica music (my favorites) the SVS pair are clearly superior. Some of this is repeat information, but I've strengthed my opinion on the matter after more time with testing.

My favorite overall sound so far is either just
1. The SVS with a low crossover 80 or even 50hz or below - (cleanest deep bass)

or

2. If I were to keep all of them, and the possible group favorite from today's listening session, was the Yamaha at a 50hz low cut playing up to 120hz and the SVS playing from 15hz tune up to 50hz crossover. If I try to overlap the subs and let the Yamaha infringe on the SVS territory the sound just gets a bit muddy. Also when I try to run the Yamaha as hot as I like it (or increase the amp gain much at all from matched) - it doesn't blend well with the SVS, and you can actually hear the overall bass sound getting quieter rather than louder). So when the subs were run gain matched the little bit this dual combo configuration added in this crossover configuration wasn't worth $700 to any of us average salary kansas city folk. Basically what all three subs gave us was slightly cleaner and better felt LFE bass hits in movies with the SVS at 50hz crossover, and slightly cleaner 50-120hz sound from the yamahas. --- but this same general overall satisfaction was mostly accomplished simply by lowering the crossover on the receiver mains to 80hz and moving the sub crossover to 80 hz with the SVS setup sans the Yamaha. If $700 was a drop in the bucket I'd just keep this configuration, but I think the three of us all agreed the Yamaha's could go be dismissed and nobody would think I'd made a grave mistake. The improvement was small of running all of them together was small. The two SVS sound excellent on movies and great on the types of music I most listen to without the Yamaha, so I'm thinking retaing the Yamaha is probably not necessary.

Note: I've found in my room the SVS need to be run in a lower crossover frequency to sound their deepest, pant flapping best. In fact I like their sound the best for movies when they are only responsible for frequencies from 15hz to 50hz (using the manual dial crossover on the SVS amp because my receiver only goes down to 80hz for the sub). The mushroom poof on the THX Amazing Life demo sounds incredible (best I've ever heard - even out of the subs lined up in the KC Subwoofer meet I hosted last month) on the SVS pair in this configuration - no higher hz frequncies to pollute the purity of the driver movement!

In the end I'll probably just run all the crossovers at 80hz THX standard (to lighten the load on my surrounds and center channel) and turn off the SVS sub crossovers and call it a day. Try to get most of my $700 back on the Yamaha and end my subwoofer search obsession -- happy with the pair of SVS PB13 Ultras.

Oh and by the way. Tonight in our listening session with my buddies my PB13Ultra pair vibrated a dish out of the upstairs kitchen cubbard and my wife came down to tell us to settle down. I never turned the AVR higher than -7.5dB from reference. The sub level calibration was at -2, PB13 Ultra amps at 2/5's ish gain.

That's done by that low LFE, the Yamaha has been much louder in my house and they've not done that, and likely never would. My wife says the SVS make her feel sick. That low frequency sound is quite appealing to me however. :cool:

I didn't end up sending the Yamaha back yet. I've no idea what I'm doing. Been busy the last few days and haven't had time to box it up and get it out the door. I'm listening to old skool music tonight and Digital Underground - Humpty Dance sounds just like the club with the Yamaha. Quite a bit of fun.

I didn't end up sending the Yamaha back yet. I've no idea what I'm doing. Been busy the last few days and haven't had time to box it up and get it out the door. I'm listening to old skool music tonight and Digital Underground - Humpty Dance sounds just like the club with the Yamaha. Quite a bit of fun.

allright, stop what you're doin...:D

Many pa subs are only made to work well down to 50hz, but the Yamaha in a livingroom is pretty flat to 30, and with about 6db eq, it is -4db @22hz. It doesn't have all the onboard processors of a typical home sub, so you can run into all kinds of phasing and crossover overrun issues if you don't pay super close attention to what kinds of things are going on with your gain controls, eq's and crossover points. You have to be your own engineer to get rid of the muddy sound from this speaker, and it isn't as simple as picking some numbers. What is actually happening can be very different from the numbers on the controls- sometime raising a slider can reduce the output.

The mud isn't from the speaker itself, but from how it interacts with the main woofers. It can be made to sound really really good, totally effortless at any sane level in your house, but will probably smear the lower midrange and upper bass without a determined effort to get the crossover doing what it needs to do. This is why speakers like Velodyne cost so much. It is the processor engineering, not just the raw parts that you are paying for.

The other drawback of a the Yamaha sub is that it isn't real pretty. Black carpet and nearly the size of a washing machine. It blends into your livingroom about as gracefully as a boarhog.

As a follow up note, I bought a pair of JTR Captivator Pros and have never looked back. The captivators handily beat the SVS PB13 ultra pair and Yamaha PA sub. For what its worth the caps are the best subs I've ever heard and that's after attending a couple sub get togethers this year and hearing about 20 top shelf subs.

I just sold the Yamaha CW218V last week finally. It's been sitting unused (outside of a short demo session) in my basement for > six months.

I purchased this dual 18" Yamaha PA CW218V subwoofer for dirt cheap -- $733 overnight shipped from Amazon using my prime membership. I purchased it to be able to audition it against some top shelf subwoofers in the KC 2011 meet linked in my signature. It didn’t do terrible in the meet considering its price – it placed mid pack by votes. If your budget was a solid $750 and you wanted loud as a top criteria and you primarily listen to music it may not be a bad fit for home use. In purchasing the sub I figured if it preformed above expectations I would have kept it and been happy, if I heard better I could resell it following the meet without much of a loss. As you’ll note by the time stamps in this thread, my curiosity of this type of product has been aroused for a long time. Overall I found out they are a mixed bag of positives and negatives – but in total don't hold a candle to true subwoofers capable of true and meaningful 15 to 20hz output. Available headroom and incredible SPL capability of the PA subs do not overcome the inability to play the lowest audible octaves for the modern movie and music use. I bump this thread because of my recent re-audition – right before the sale and my conclusion on the matter.

The JTR Captivator Pro Pair (single 18" in each cabinet) I have had for the last six months are multiples of more expensive--- yet are worth every penny over the Yamaha dual 18” setup. The Yamaha sounded good for music, better than my SVS PB13 Ultra pair in my opinion (which I also bought and sold over the last six months), while the SVS PB13 Ultra just utterly trounced the Yamaha CW218V for movies. That said, the JTR Captivators sound better than the Yamaha in every regard, in music, in movies, in fun factor, in extension, in smoothness, in accuracy, in blending, in headroom, in tactile’ness - - - EVERY category. The Captivators also trounce the SVS PB13 Ultras in every category. I live on a modest budget, my wife is a stay at home mom, and I have an average income, and yet after demoing the JTR Cap pair against the Yamaha CW218V the Yamaha sat unused for about half a year while awaiting a craigslist buyer, while the PB13 Ultras received full playtime for a month or so, and the JTR Captivators have stolen the spotlight for the remaining time till present. I say that to say this - Despite the fact the Captivators are significantly more money – it is worth the extra expense to have the quality improvements! In a hobby where I don’t get too excited about a $2000 projector vs. a $5000 projector, or a $2000 mismatched set of 5 surround speakers vs. a $15,000 dollar set – the subs – in contrast – DO make a big difference!

The Captivators so handedly beat the Yamaha in every category that I never even felt the need to go back to them. There was no ‘oh man – which is better I can barely tell the difference.’ The difference was clear from the very first moment and clear again on this recent re-audition. – I tried to implement the Yamaha subs in tandem with the SVS and even with the JTR Captivators early on and found they didn’t integrate well and actually brought the overall sound quality down as compared to the SVS or Captivators alone. Each sub system seemed to sound the best by itself without other vendors infringements.

A final note – for the Yamaha’s strong suite – music listening. While I enjoyed the Yamaha for music – they don’t sound as clean as the captivators even when easily playing within their headroom limitations. A direct comparison between the two leaves the Yamaha sounding muddy. Noteworthy -- because I preferred the Yamaha for music over the SVS PB13 Ultras. When I hooked up the Yamaha to my EP4000 amp for one last audition and played through some material and reference level volumes I had absolutely no regrets in my purchase of the JTR Equipment. The Yamaha just cannot compete for music, and so much less so for movies.

I ended up selling them for $500 to a professional DJ. I hope he enjoys them and gets lots of good use out of them. I had no intent to demo my JTR Captivators while he was there buying the Yamaha CW218V --- If I had done so – I may surely have lost my sale.